Welcome to Valhalla Conversations, episode 15,
part 2. If you have yet to watch part 1, I encourage
you to please go find it in either my YouTube
channel or my Spotify channel, wherever you're
watching or listening today. But if you have
indeed watched part 1, then welcome back to Valhalla,
and we continue our fascinating discussion with
special guests Luca Panaro and Emma Thompson
on the topic. of Vikings in games and Norse games.
We hope you enjoy the conversation. Something
that's because you mentioned yeah like Iceland
and folklore and being strangely overlooked because
of course this is where all the literature mostly
survives from but people think more about Denmark,
Norway and Sweden. Because these are the places
that have these really dramatic fjord landscapes.
And we have fjords in Iceland that are just not
very steep and impressive, with these huge cliffs,
like in Norway especially. But they're still
very beautiful. But there's a game coming out
that's developed by one of the many small Icelandic
game studios that I think, I was unfortunately
out of town for the sneak peek. lecture sort
of thing that they did a couple, like two years
ago, I think. But it's called Isle of Wind. And
I think they're working with several folklorists
on it. And instead of being set in the Viking
Age, it's set in, I believe, the 17th century.
And you kind of play as like a semi -CRS woman,
who's, I think, the premise is that many people
in her probably region or district or at least
just village, have just disappeared and she has
to somehow work with folkloric beings and set
balance with local land spirits and things like
that in order to rebalance the world. But the
fact that it's 17th century, which we have of
course way more information on the folklore and
beliefs of these time periods than we do from
the Viking Age or the settlement period regarding
Iceland. So, it's an interesting shift that people
will still see and say, ah, visually, you know,
this is Viking. It's a nice one. It's this, you
know, kind of, you know, a CRES, vulva type that
we see as a playable class in all these other
Viking RPGs. But it's 17th century, so it might
do some interesting things, hopefully. It's always
good to hear about games coming out from other
countries because they do bring so much freshness
and originality to those gamers. So it's stuck
in the same studio, the same types of games,
and it's nice to find other ones. Speaking of
folklore, it made me think of Rocky. I'm probably
not pronouncing it. It's R over the two dot KI.
folklore -ish game certainly with strong Norse
elements that I know has got some runes and some
trolls and some berries of some Norse type but
it's all about a girl going around unlooking
the history and mystery of her father and mending
the kind of bond between them. I haven't played
it, heard wonderful things, I've got the soundtrack
and it's very very beautifully written but I
know that's probably more to get from Norse folklore
than the Norse full pantheon like the gods and
the giants and the elves and that kind of thing.
And, of course, dwarves keep coming up in all
sorts of games. And, of course, in fantasy literature
and tabletop games, because, of course, you can
play as a dwarf. You can play as an elf. You
can't play as a giant. They've come as close
as a goliath, and that's now that we're where
they've stopped. Of course, the DM can play as
a giant. Good or bad. And of course I remember
Emma, you were running that wonderful little
one shot that was set in a very special, I keep
calling it special, it's special to me because
I got to be very old and I can do bad roles,
I just kept blaming it all on my character stage.
You really did have some terrible roles, I felt
really bad because you had your own dice, you
had your dice mat and they were just like, nah,
not today. It's fine, sometimes that's the best
bit, sometimes that's the best bit. still certainly
kind of like the historical aspect, although
it has got a bit up to the mythology into it.
Can you tell us what, can you remember what title
of that little one -shot? Yeah, so the one -shot
I ran for you guys at the symposium is called
The Final Voyage of Drangathar, which is by J
.C. Connors, and it's on One -Shot Adventures,
the website. He's done it for D &D Fifth Edition,
which is what we played, but I think it's also
for GURPS and some other systems as well. Basically,
the premise is that, you know, powerful warlords,
Dren Gathar goes missing. Well, not so much missing.
He's stranded on an island. He sends some of
his men to go get help. You return as the adventuring
party with some Norse flavored individuals. So
there's a berserker, there's a vulva, sort of
magic user, and you kind of slowly uncover. you
know that this island is infested with Draugr
with undead and you have to save your warlord
from becoming one himself and obviously there's
some things about you know messing with Valhalla
and eating beasts that you shouldn't and things
like that and yeah kind of the reason why well
part of the reason why I ran that was because
sort of the organizers went oh my god you're
doing a paper on D &D why don't we just do D
&D which was fun but also I think Tabletop is
a really interesting thing to study in the sense
of, even with video games as interactive as they
are, there's a point where they're finite. There's
only so much people can do with a video game
before you have to just, it has to ship, you
have to make money at some point. Whereas tabletop
can really just become and keep becoming anything.
So what I've been wanting to do with this research
is not just look at kind of the supporting text,
but also what players do. when given free reign
with Viking characters and what kind of preconceptions
they're bringing to the table. So it was interesting
that the conference one shot that I ran, so I've
run this game five times in total and the conference
one was the best behaved. Everyone else were
really like, how do we break Emma? Which is obviously
an aspect of Dungeons and Dragons of how do we
break our friend who's running this game for
us? Amazing. Well, I can still remember there
was a particular moment in our little one shot
where we came across a undead. It became undead.
That's what we all feared. It was a dead body
on a tree. There was a raven and it had something
in its beak. And I think one of the other characters
slash players spoke to the raven, a new cord,
and he dropped it down because it opened its
mouth. Yeah, that was me. Yeah, it was really
funny because at no point in any of the other
games had anyone gone, yeah, the bird has just
vocalised, so it drops the thing in its mouth.
And then you guys were like, yeah, clearly that's
what happened. So they went, yep, I can't argue
with you there. You're right. The next time I
ran the game after you guys, I was like, no,
it's under its talon. It's not in its mouth.
Ah, OK. So I learnt my lesson. It is sometimes
sneaky when we bring in reality and physics and
science and just the actual gravity. Look, I
know liking age facts, I don't know physics.
Please don't bring physics to a tabletop. Oh,
but it was a really fun one -shot and I keep
thinking if and when we kind of get to the end
of my current in -person tabletop game at my
local gaming shop, I might just pull that out
and run that for my friends. Yeah, do it. Just
have some fun. just quickly on what Emma said
about the sort of differences between the limits
of computer versus tabletop, that conversely,
like as the graphics have become much, much higher
fidelity, and that's where we kind of draw our
immersion from all the fact that you can look
around, everything's really hi -fi, and there's
an immersive soundtrack, like for something like
Senua or Hellblade. All of these things kind
of, and these are heavy sort of data loads. on
the file and on the console that require fancier
and fancier computers to run. But back in the
day, like the earlier, there's a very nerdy,
long video essay that I watched about the Elder
Scrolls. And not the first one, but the second
Elder Scrolls, Daggerfall. Supposedly the in
-game map, because it was procedurally generated
and looked like pixels, variously colored pixels,
limitedly colored pixels rather. but was procedurally
generated. Supposedly the extent of the in -game
map was equivalent to the real world United Kingdoms
with cities with like hundreds of thousands of
NPCs in them or something insane like this and
it was sort of the trade -off is you lose and
the games have become more and more simplified
to the way you lose, you know. In Daggerfall
you could supposedly, you know, scale up your...
you know, your thievery skills and your acrobatic
skills to the extent where you could become some
sort of roof climbing, you know, cat burglar
type person and you can't really do that in something
like Skyrim or whatever the next Elder Scrolls
that they'll release is, eventually. These sort
of more, the more freedom, free aspects of you
have in D &D have been scaled back as graphical
fidelity has become the sort of mainstay of the
RPG genre, so. you can still, you know, you can't
have, you can't talk to a bird and make it drop
a key that's not designed. And even when it's
designed, you can somehow make the DM, you can
convince the DM, you cannot convince a computer
that you're right. Yeah, it's certainly an interesting
point because it makes me think to Assassin's
Creed Valhalla where it always irks me that you
can ride across half the country in about 10
minutes. it's it's too small and of course to
touch on our other topic about Vikings and always
being in cold places they have of course with
the north of England cold it's winter and yet
in the rest of the land it's spring or summer
and I'm like how that does not geographically
climatically happen it just doesn't but I guess
it's almost echoing kind of like the game of
thrones and come out the north and the wall and
all the ice people nuts that's where they come
from What's quite interesting, though, thinking
about what you're saying about crossing England
in no amount of time whatsoever, is in Dungeons
and Dragons, for example, in the handbook, it
sort of tells you this is how many miles a horse
can do a day before you might need to roll for
exhaustion because you're pushing the horse too
hard. That's actually easier to embed in a video
game in the sense of you put some code in that's
like, the horse has been riding for x many miles.
pop up with something that says the horse needs
to rest. Whereas in D &D, as a DM, you have to
go, how many miles have they traveled? And like,
have they done it fast? Have they been pushing
the horse? Have they been feeding the horse?
Often they don't feed the horse. So it's easier
to actually embed that realism into the video
game versus tabletop. I actually think tabletop
accounts more for it. It gives you more of a
like, you should be doing this and this cost
this much, and so on and so on. Yeah, if you
choose to. make this type of gameplay kind of
more realistic or gritty sort of survivalist
style, then there's many suggestions and rule
sets to sort of enable that type of gameplay.
And people do this, usually players choose to
add these things through modifications or mods
in video games. There's another, one of us few
Old Norse game scholars. Victoria Cooper has
written an article about modding gritty, realistic
medievalism into Skyrim by making more advanced
weather systems. There is a survival mode in
one of the Skyrim Anniversary Edition. They made
this mode called survivalism where you have to
eat and rest and get warm and things like that.
The players have pushed that further and made
it more realistic with all kinds of things. And
so this is something that players want, and so
they custom make this content for their games
sometimes, when it's possible. Interesting. It
certainly brings me back memories, of course,
of a Viking game called Sims, because of course
in Sims, you've got to eat, sleep. go buy food,
cook the food, clean up or get racks and also
it is almost like a reflection of the rules of
D &D, kind of like how many rules do you want
to add, how many conditions do you want to try
and jump and challenge through. And in terms
of survival games there's one that I have played
a bit and I played it during its beta phase as
well as its alpha phase which is called Tribes
of Midgard. I don't know if either of you have
heard of that one. It's very mythological based
and I have to say I do quite like the style of
it and I did get some of the cats. These are
exclusive cats. This is one. This is called Sonia.
They do have Norse names but don't ask me to
pronounce them. And then they have this one which
is a new one. There were only 300 produced because
they wanted to give money to a cat charity on
their third year anniversary. That's so sweet.
My daughter likes them too. Thankfully she's
happily sharing them with me. it's on my desk
and keep me company and it reminds me that I
still need to go and play because I do quite
like it's got two styles you can either have
story mode or survival mode and it's for online
players so you can put it up with your friends
if they've brought the game a bit. You've got
skins so you can look at it. I know my friend
James Acheson he got me the special edition which
gave me the Valkyrie armour skin. which is quite
cool. So even though my armour is very low level,
I look impressively awesome. But you kind of,
again, you have to chop down trees and get the
twigs to make the timber to make your hammer,
well, the house and get berries and certain ingredients
to make certain things. In terms of ore and flint
and stone to make equipment and make tools. It's
not as heavily farming as the previous game I
mentioned that Giles Christians evolved. You
don't die of starvation and cold in this one,
thankfully. They've taken an hour, but every
night there's these hell things that come out
and try and get to your little seed of eager
silversilge is growing and takes all the souls
of all the animals that you kill basically. you've
got goose, you've got pigs, you've got deer,
you've got wolves which they will attack you
if you were in them. We've also got foxes and
that kind of thing, but they've got different
lands where they've got draugr, they've got giants,
they've got I think they've had four expansions
since it came out properly and you can face Jormungand,
you can face Fenrir, you could face Hel, and
then the last one I believe you can face Loki
but they've never really revealed that one because
they want place to go find it sometimes. But
that's what I think. But you're basically, Ayn
and Harrod are just like on a holiday down in
this land where you just survive until you go
to Valhalla basically. But the mythology is really
deeply ingrained in every aspect of it. So I
remember coming across the recipe for like the
level two sword and it was called Cygni's Revenge.
Because of course not many people know about
Cygni, or Cygni, if I can get the name right,
which is Loki's wife who's there holding a bowl
of poison and taking it away and letting Loki
to action. putting it back and of course it's
a nice odd to how deep they've gone into the
pantheon they're not just going with the classic
of Odin Thor and Hingal and Frey and Loki and
that they've actually nodded to all the other
ones as well but it's fun it takes time I only
ever play it on my own to know how many players
there are many friends who play games typically
so I'm often on solo games then usually so I
am on the solo survival mode which is where I
kind of like the days are longer and the nights
are slightly shorter but you've got no impending
trap whereas if you're in story mode the whole
thing kind of like gets stronger as you get stronger
and then you've got to go expand and find the
bosses and get that ancient treasure. It was
interesting, it's a fun little game to play,
hard one, hard on your own, but it's fun. I can
also sell a Canadian studio, I think, because
I know they do a lot of their posts in French
as well, which I'm feeling kind of, I could be
wrong. So yeah, that's a nice one. In terms of
kind of like touching off computer games for
a bit, I've certainly got a couple of Norse table
games. One I've got is called Raven's Race. I
love that one. It's so simple and cute. Yeah,
it's a very good one. I feel that you're about
to explain it, so I will let you. No, by all
means. I mean, I think it's called Raven's race.
I know it involves human and meaning and you've
got little cars that represent the realms and
it's almost a bit like dominoes that you've got
to match them up to help your ravens get all
the way around. It's kind of like each person's
going anti -clockwise to the other one. so you
can overlap there and you can also cheat if you
get like a low card and make the other Raven
get lost and go around the wrong way. It's kind
of like a loop of cards and each Raven starts
at sort of one end and you can basically move
the cards up and down and that screws over the
other Raven in terms of two cross realms they
have to be of a certain type and you can change
the type on them it's basically about who gets
their Raven back to Odin first but it's just
it's very simple. The art style on the cards
is really nice. It sort of has the different
realms on it. And it's just a very simple nod
to Viking mythology, which I think is quite engaging.
So yeah, a quick, easy game. And obviously a
lot of board games can be very rule -intensive
and daunting in terms of just approaching a box
and going, you know, we need to spend an hour
before we can even play the game. So I think
it's quite a good way to come into it. Yeah.
Because I certainly going back, we were just
going back at least, at least nine years now,
back before pandemic was even a blip on the horizon.
And when I had some more local D &D friends,
when we couldn't play a D &D game, we'd often
play other games instead, if like one player
was missing. And I know they got out, I can't
remember the name, it was some kind of strategic
Norse game, but it was kind of resource based.
They each played like a gel type character, a
common figure in this Norse society, and he had
to collect. enough water, enough food, enough
ships, enough gold, that kind of thing. I never
had the most resources, would at the end basically.
So that was an interesting one. And I do have
another one. I'm just going, in fact, I've got
two to show off, ladies and gentlemen. I will
disappear into the hall, into the hall beyond.
It was by the cooking pots. I have them, they're
here. And the first one is this one, All Thingy.
This is a good one to play. I think I've only
ever played it twice and it's a very good strategic
game. It's set in Iceland, more historical than
a classical card game. Again, you've got to kind
of like match resources to select the right members
of the cards because all these characters are
here, the viewers and listeners. Well, many viewers,
because you can see listeners, you need to join
the YouTube so you can see. And they're all characters
based on sagas or almost literature. at the time
and you've got to recruit them because you're
a um what's the word i've forgotten the word
does the box tell me huff thingy i don't know
I want to say alfalfa but it's the wrong word,
it's not quite a yarl because that's a very much
a Norwegian thing but you're basically a chieftain
of sorts in one of the other four regions of
Iceland and so you recruit people and then after
recruiting people with your resource cards because
some people like saying things they then have
kind of like a home gang at the end of the day
and you put forward your champion and then and
the resource cards become a weapons card or an
armour card and whoever has the most numbers.
It's a very good counting game, I will say that.
It's not as intense as D &D in numbers, but it's
there. And then you kind of like get points if
you win like the most home games that night and
then it's kind of like a day rotation and it
carries around. But yeah, this was designed by...
a really cool guy called Joshua Gilligan he's
actually an earlier episode I think he was episode
11 in January so do go listen to my episode and
talk to him about it but he's done an expansion
pack called Saga Heroes again I haven't played
that pack yet but it comes it basically is another
supplement of characters to go with the all thingy
one will rise card game So do recommend, go find
that. At Outland Entertainment, that's where
you can get this beauty. And then this one, it's
still in its cellophane, ladies and gentlemen,
so I'm not even opening it yet. This is what
I treated myself at Yorvik Festival this year.
It's like the radars, because it's got an award.
I thought, well, it must be a good candy that's
got an award. And this simply says on the back,
you are a merciless Viking chief on a mission
to get the biggest Navy, the largest plan and
the most loot. So again, I'm thinking resource
management and collection. With those raiding,
plundering and interference from the Null Scots,
always a bonus. And you will feel totally Viking
from the first draw until long after the final
backstabbing and bloodthirsty move. Well, I am
hooked already. I just need someone to play it
with. You all need to move nearer to me. You're
all moving too far away. So I don't know if either
of you two have come across those two games or
played them? If not, don't worry. Yeah, I'd heard
of all thingy, but no, I hadn't. And maybe I've
seen Viking Raiders, but no, not played them.
I think we kind of touched upon this with board
games and probably tabletop role playing as well.
Video games have kind of got tutorials down to
an art at this point, like so many video games
have done tutorials. They know exactly how you're
supposed to get the player onto things. board
game rules can be really really dense and I know
so many people who go to these board game cafes
and they will just pick the same board games
up again because they know how to play and it
just saves your time so it's right it looks to
me like viking raiders is the kind of game that
sort of makes it as simple to get into as possible
I imagine all thingy is maybe a bit denser on
the rule set but it's interesting I guess in
terms of the tabletop stuff being role playing
or board games how much pressure there is on
whoever is the designated rules lawyer to kind
of adequately draw people in compared to a video
game, which is programmed and has loads of people
kind of giving feedback on how to engage the
player. Yeah, when I was in. Yeah, when I was
in New York, visiting after the last IMC. I think
I went two years ago. We did stop in like a kind
of pop culture game store, and there was this,
I think it's this game, I've looked it up, called
Vedr. And it's spelled with just a D instead
of an S, but I think it was this one. It was
either this or something called Reykjald or something,
just something very Icelandic. But this description
is very amusing, that Icelanders have always
been. obsessed with the weather, including today.
It's entirely around, you know, kind of mixing
Viking and modern Icelandic preoccupations with
the weather into some kind of board games, though.
But I always see these really interesting ones
that pick up very niche Norse words or topics.
And I'm always fascinated by the spelling, too.
That's one of my weird... Popeye, I guess, like
with the one you just showed us, Becky, Althingi,
the fact that it's Althingi with the I. but a
th. Well, they have to have a th, because otherwise
people will say all pingy when they have a thought.
But then most people know what the all thing
is if you're sort of an aficionado of Viking
stuff. But they might not necessarily understand
why there's an i tacked on at the end. So the
kind of mix of pressures, types of pressures
when it comes to using words and names and things
like that is always very interesting to me. you
might like to look up a campaign sourcebook called
When the Wolf Comes by Mr Ian Stewart Sharpe,
aka, as I call him, Mr Vikingverse, because his
brain is enormous on this subject, because it's
basically Vikings in space, in a very futuristic,
doomed, as if, kind of like, as if the Vikings,
as if, I say the Vikings, I'm doing it myself,
as if the Scandinavian people basically invented
everything that, this regard, kind of like the
Far East, the West, us in Europe they did everything
they made science they made medicine they made
technology and Odin just gave them the winning
card every time basically he's just defying the
norms and so in this alternate universe everything
is deeply Norse and how he says a lot of the
words I can't get over I can't pronounce them
I had the honor and privilege and shame in a
way of being on his actual play podcast called
Vikings and Valkyries and my character kind of
died That's all I'm going to say. Spoilers, because
there's 22 episodes out there. Please do go listen
to it. It's a lot of fun, but nearly every episode
has a character death. That's what I will say.
As his tagline goes, don't get too attached to
the characters at the table. But that is deeply
Norse. A lot of his linguistics is really...
I think it definitely honours, if not reflects,
Old Norse really well. I know I tried to recruit
Emma to get onto the podcast, but things are
busy in your life and that's understandable.
I can barely schedule my own D &D. Oh, don't
talk to me about scheduling a D &D because I've
had not one but two D &D games cancelled this
week because of scheduling issues. As we call
them scheduling gremlins, they get everywhere.
I think we just all need to have a dedicated
hour. of almost like worship, we just all have
an hour of D &D every week. But that one is good
if you're interested in all those linguistics
and games and of course that is taking Vikings
both the history and the mythology completely
beyond in different angles to being either mythological
or historical. But I know he is revising When
the Wolf Comes to make kind of like almost a
sequel expansion. and I can't slice me and I
apologize Ian please forgive me remember the
title of it he did announce it when I interviewed
him back in March and so please go watch that
early episode but he's instead of setting it
in its futuristic tense context he's bringing
it back into the historical and he's not sending
it in Europe he's not setting it in Scandinavia
not even in Iceland not even in Greenland and
New Zealand he's setting it in Constantinople
otherwise known as Miklagrad to the Vikings and
that's a really interesting place to put them.
And thankfully, when he reveals the cover on
the episode, there are no hothelmets inside.
But he's still revising it, kind of like keeping
the same rules and obviously making different
classes, different contexts. There's a bit of
almost... settlement building, very similar in
the way of Assassin's Creed where you have El
Halloway go and get a settlement and you have
to build it and you get extra boons and benefits.
But I know that mechanic's involved in his next
expansion coming up and I believe he'll be kick
-starting that one, hopefully, later at some
point this year. He's told me he'll let me know.
So I will let you all know, dear viewers and
listeners. And anyone else interested? Because
I certainly will be. Because I got my own NPC
artwork in the first one, so I might do, if he
offers it as another extra kind of like... initiative
to get money and I might throw my money in and
get my artwork done again. So that's I think
that's the only one I've come across of all my
other Norse inspired source books that touched
on it historically. Nearly all of them are very
fixed in the mythology and then the magical and
fantastical side of things because I know I've
got Spuland which I know Emma is familiar with
because that was on your list at your presentation
and I've recently they've got an expansion to
their Sourcebooks have very money at that one
for that one as well. I don't know if I'll ever
play these ladies and gentlemen, but I just like
looking at the artwork. Especially because I
know Speland did have a Valkyrie NPC character
type. I thought, oh, she actually goes to like
booms or woes depending on who she wants to die
or survive. That was a really interesting use
of the Valkyrie mechanic. But there was another
one called Journey to Ragnarok by Manor Project
Studio. I think. Yep, got their beautiful books.
I've done a little humble unboxing video on my
YouTube channel as well, if anyone wants to go
look at that. And I know they actually announced
a while back, before Christmas, that I'd be in
the group that streamed their plays on Twitch.
We're doing it. And because one of the players
wanted to be Valkyrie, they deliberately then
invented a Valkyrie class. They told that to
the studio, Manapodic Studio, then Manapodic
Studio, then made that available. I haven't actually
downloaded it already. I have bookmarked the
email. It's been bookmarked for a very long time.
But again, because I think Val Quixy is on my
catnet lately, isn't she? She said it already.
I mention nearly every episode, really. I'm always
interested in how that's interpreted because
it's such a different stance from Sheel Maidens
or Wolvers of women in Norse games, of course.
Yeah, I think the interesting point about Sphiland
and Journey to Ragnarok is these are both campaign
settings or module extensions for Dungeons and
Dragons, so these will tend to lean as far into
the fantasy elements as possible because in theory
these settings are set up so an existing adventuring
party who've gone around Faerun, which is sort
of Dungeons and Dragons' default continent, can
go off to these lands and still work as normal,
so that's kind of where that leaning into fantasy
comes there. But there are a couple which lean
more historical, but not many. It's usually in
that at least pseudo mythical space, if not outright
fantasy. But that also kind of is because of
how combat heavy a lot of these games are. It's
a case of if we were really realistic with combat
and it was just people with swords, people with
axes, people with bows, you know. still fun but
you're kind of playing the same character as
everyone else so magic gives you a lot more to
play with in terms of I get to do this and you
get to do something completely different in combat
synergy and all that fun stuff. Yeah I forget
how much I went into this in my Stavanger presentation
of the article but in the in the actual written
article I go a bit sort of a little bit with
Assassin's Creed Valhalla about how it tries
to establish itself as sort of like a historically
realistic depiction of Viking Age England, as
problematic as anybody who sees the Viking Age
will tell you its representation is. But regardless,
there's some sort of inherent synergy like Emma
was discussing between these more heroic mythic
settings and the action of games with their sort
of default as being this power fantasy. And of
course, we have disempowerment fantasies in the
form of horror games where all you can do is
run away and you have no way to fight back against
monsters and things like that. But by and large,
the majority of games are power fantasies, especially
RPGs. And so even in this historically accurate
representation of Viking Age England, that they
try to create with all of these, you know, actual
academic consults and historical research that
they do on these games. The reality that they
kind of depict still looks more like one of these
superhuman saga heroes who's able to, you know,
just kill 50 men in a single battle single -handedly.
You know, several times in a five -hour play
session or something, you're just killing hundreds
of people. And your allies are helping, but you're
doing the heavy lifting. So you're one of these,
you know, A .L. Scott, Le Grimson, together type,
you know, mythic heroic on the border of, you
know, written history and the mythic past where
there's monsters and gods walking amongst us.
So this sort of this part of games brings this
out, even in settings where they're trying to
be historically accurate to a certain degree.
It becomes more literary, heroic and mythic.
Yeah, I mean even within, as you say Satsuki
Valhalla, there is that kind of spin -off adventure
where you're basically impersonating Odin. Everyone
calls you Odin, even though you're clearly not.
And then it's basically their retelling of the
Norse story. I can remember when I first encountered
it, and then you have to protect the builder
who's putting up the magical wall, because it's
not a stone wall. the legends say there is no
magic horse either but he's there and you've
got to fix it and you've got to fight off the
Jotun that are swamping you single -handed. I
found that rather interesting so I was like no
I'm nearly dead can you just hurry up and fix
the wall I'm trying to hit them as many times
as I can. But yes that's another interesting
take. There was one game and I'm gonna hopefully
open Steam without ruining the recording. Where
is my wish list? There's one game that I should
really think of that isn't combat stuff. It kind
of links back to, oh, this is it, Choice of the
Viking. Have either of you heard of that before?
Is this the one that Declan helped with? Yes,
Declan. That was his name. I wanted to call him
Eric. No, Rebecca, that's not the right name.
I think he's done another one, too, or he's consulted
slash worked closely with the people who actually
do the sort of game coding, I think. I haven't
played this one because I went to click the link
on his Twitter back in the day when he first
mentioned it to me, and it was a dead link. So
I'll email him about this to get the real link.
And then I never did, because that's what always
happens when you say you will do something. I
was reading the blurb for that and obviously
I recognised the name because I remember being
at, I think it was at the Richard Hall Symposium
one year or it might have been the Midlands Viking
Symposium, one of the two. I've been to one of
them back before Covid and becoming a parent
and that was where he was speaking about Thor
and how he doesn't really quit thunder and this
that and the other and his brilliant thesis which
I keep thinking of buying and then seeing the
price of and then shying away again. Yes, but
it's a really interesting topic but I remember
reading for that and how it is always echoes
of the text based games back in the day where
you have choices and I remember looking at the
reviews and some of them are good as soon as
I was like, but where are the visuals? Where
are the graphics? I didn't want just text. I'm
like, did you not read the blurb? It says blurb.
So I keep meaning to try that one as an interesting
thing. And I think there was one other game on
my wishlist which was similar. There's something
really amusing about being upset with a text
-based game when you didn't read the blurb. Can
you read? That's the problem. Yeah. I'm sure
it was called Sailing or something like that.
And it has a similar premise. But certainly speaking
of games coming out, one of my wishlist isn't
even really early access yet, and that's called,
somebody called Viking Saga, semicolon, echoes
of Midgard. I thought, well, it's got the word
Viking in it, and Midgard in it, so that's going
on my wishlist. I do want to find out actually
how certain words reappear in titles so much,
like it may be love, but obviously God of War
Ragnarok came out, and then Assassin's Creed's
like... DLC was, it's Athens Creed, Valhalla,
Ragnarok, and it's just like, right, yeah, we
know what to expect, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I went to my own list in a node program to be
like, I think I've heard of that one. I think
I've heard of that one that was on, like, oh,
it's forthcoming. No, it wasn't that. It's called
Viking Ashes, Survivors of Ragnarok. So it's
another something Viking title, Ragnarok of something.
It's always the same thing. Mm -hmm. Yeah, because
another one on my wish list is, of course, North,
Earth of Blood, because that is North Viking,
Midgard, obviously, comes up a few times. You've
got Niflheim, which is kind of like a kind of
like left or right playable game. Again, you've
just got to fight your way out of Niflheim. Expeditions
Viking, Valheim, and of course, Northgard, which
is another successful survival stick type strategy
map based game that I keep hearing a lot of and
keep thinking I will play maybe one day because
so many of these games are quite time intensive
aren't they and I think that is partly what you
said then about the rules and the mechanics involved
whether it is simply you've got to make the clothes
before you freeze or you've got to kill the wolves
before they eat you or you've got to conquer
that land before they conquer yours I can think
of one game actually that isn't quite time -intensive,
and that's simply called Bad North. Have I ever
heard about one? Yeah. It's what they call a
roguelite. I personally keep finding the words
rogue and light very confusing, because how can
you be a roguelite? But yeah, I think I keep
needing to look up the dictionary definition
of what roguelite means, but I just keep thinking,
okay, roguelite means we played in short bursts.
That's the way I understand it. and it's a fun
little strategic game very beautiful artistically
made nice tranquil music soundtrack and it's
basically like if you imagine like the Hebrides
and Shetlands but with barrows all mixed together
but then mixed up there's loads of little islands
different shapes different houses and you play
the captain or the captain or the leader of a
little squad you start off with two and if you
save some people on the island then you get three
and you can every time you save stop a house
from burning from the bad vikings that's why
it's called bad north and again this connection
with vikings and the north is not setting like
the bad midlands or the bad seas it's the bad
north not even the bad south um but you've got
to stop these vikings like little tiny little
blob like characters it's very simplified so
there's there's still bloodshed you can't turn
the blood effects off if you don't want the butch
and I just find it's just funny splatter really
it just makes me laugh but they have little pictures
and little anglo -saxony type or norse -esque
names a lot of the islands have names that make
me think of the pharaohs and the shetlands and
you've got to keep going as you go you kind of
like your army gets leveled up with gold through
wanting boons and armor and skills and upgrades
and then equally the enemies get leveled up and
upgraded and you can cross berserkers which can
only be divided by types and then you've got
archers that can actually hit your glides better
than your archers can and me and my husband have
tried playing it together in that hill doing
island and then I'll do an island as well sometimes
I say oh look that's coming from the north that's
coming from the south turn around because you
can rotate the camera so you get a 360 degree
but it's quite a fun little game to play, I would
recommend it. It's funny you say like bad Midlands
or whatever because there is a game that's been
announced recently that I thought was a joke
at first which is called God Save Birmingham
or something like that and it's set in 17th century
Birmingham and like zombies come out and I genuinely
thought it was a joke and I was just like, oh!
This is a real game, but this looks quite good.
It's such an interesting choice for setting,
given that 1600 Birmingham is not normally the
choice. But I guess it's definitely about like,
you know, where are the weird places we could
set our Viking games which are a bit different
to the norm? And maybe it is the Midlands. Do
a Repton Talk Sea game. Yeah, that's very funny,
though. I genuinely thought it was a joke because
obviously Birmingham's not doing too well in
the press right now, so I was just like, oh,
haha, someone's made a trailer for God Save Birmingham.
It's like, oh, no, this is a legitimate game.
Okay. Yep. Are there any other games that we
haven't talked about that you would recommend
or think people might like if they're into Vikings
and all stuff, mythological or historical, or
that you personally just really like and you
want to promote? I mean, I... It would be less
about a specific game, I guess, and just, you
know, theoretically, anyone watching this podcast
is at least just interested tangentially in Viking
stuff. Maybe they've just really stumbled afar.
Yeah. But it's one of the really fascinating
parts of how Viking stuff ends up in video game
worlds. gameplay mechanics is how it usually
ends up totally decontextualized and in really
strange places, especially in sci -fi. Because
of the close -knit history of fantasy and sci
-fi, both as literary genres and as mainstays
of role -playing games, the two main types, you
either have a sci -fi role -playing game or a
fantasy role -playing game or one that blends
both elements. So you often find space vikings,
like the type that you were talking about, which
kind of runs the sort of space viking campaign.
But it's usually just one -off references to
things like a rocket launcher in Destiny and
Destiny 2 that's called Gatlet Horn, the horn
of Heimdall. And I find it quite funny that it's
a rocket launcher. Why did they choose this?
The horn is loud and a rocket launcher is probably
pretty loud. So maybe that's the extent of it.
Or like in a game I used to play a ton of called
Warframe, which is probably the least Viking
game that you could get. It's robotic space ninjas
basically running these very fast paced, shoot
them up, kind of hack and slash combination with
magic in the form of technology type stuff. But
you have one of the first Warframes, these kind
of robot ninjas. that you can control is called
Loki and especially he looks nothing like he
sort of has a pointy head but that's it uh maybe
those are horns i don't know um but his especially
his skill uh skill set is based in you know trickery
and deception and stealth so it's more thematic
than it is you know just Loki from Norse mythology
but it's like oh like we have like a trickster
figure out Loki of course so now there's Loki
in space beating up post humans and things like
that. That also just triggered a thought for
me in terms of, so Final Fantasy 7 is not my
Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy X is where I'm at,
but Final Fantasy 7 has a lot of Norse realm
names in it. It has a ton of Norse stuck in general.
I haven't played 7 properly, but I was in a room
while someone was playing it and just the ears
poking up being like, hold on, why is this Final
Fantasy game referencing North realms all the
time, so it is interesting where it crosses over.
Yeah actually, yeah that one's the kind of the
heaviest with the references because like you
said it's set in the city of Midgar, no D you
read, just Midgar, the main characters from a
town in the in the kind of north foggy place
called Nibelheim with two Bs, but things like
especially Odin as like a summon. This sort of
special ability that you can use every now and
then has been I think since Final Fantasy 3 or
4 And he reoccurs very frequently and Ragnarok
is usually a sword that you can get in the game
like that very high level special sword or Yeah,
right, yeah, that's a sword But yeah seven is
kind of the heaviest on these references yeah,
I'm actually currently co -writing an article
on a JRPG that's the Norse influence, then we're
sort of... Me and my co -writer are trying to
puzzle out what's up with Japanese receiving
kind of Western fantasy, Western medieval fantasy
in general, but the Viking stuff in particular
because it's so popular right now and they're
starting to make more kind of Viking games through
the Japanese pop culture lens of anime and manga
and JRPG conventions instead of... Western RPG
conventions. It's a good point, because I remember
many months ago sending you a link to a new game
that was coming out that looked very distinctly
Norse, and then you pointed out that's actually
coming from Japan. I'm like, ah, I wouldn't have
guessed from the way the characters in the world
was depicted. Yeah. Because it's just, it's so
valuable and adaptable. Or was it Korean, or
was it Japanese? I can't remember the name off
the top of my head, because, you know, my memory
is rubbish. But yeah, it was interesting because
then you pointed out that they'd used a particular
symbol at one point and you were like, a bit
questionable. Yeah, they had a curved swastika
on a shield at the very last minute. I was like,
ah, they have to sneak it in there. There can't
not be some sketchy symbol in these games, I
swear. But I think you can customize it a little
bit. Yeah. I mean I do wonder kind of like those
who are very familiar with runes both kind of
like as a written language and of course their
many meanings that people kind of associate with
them kind of like how people they find it when
they see runes used in games because that's another
common trope that's come along from Norse mythology
and Viking culture that's used in games it's
often got a magical connotation it's never used
everywhere yeah common sense of carving a message
into a stone because that's what they often are
found for on items and things. Certainly it's
mainly think actually because before today I
sent you both a link that Beth Cedar had put
on their Instagram account because they've done
something rather uniquely crazy for their next
Doom game which is... called doom dark age might
as well place the word dark with many evil but
it was also there was an era known as the dark
ages i think that's what they're leaning into
and they made their own mock version of the bio
tapestry but about doom and the doom slayer and
i'm like okay fair enough and they've put it
up in the armory and leaves of all places so
it doesn't i must admit he uses a shield of sorts
it rotates and has daggers and slices up things
very nicely but that's about the main only artifacts
i can see that looks anything kind of like medieval
or viking age ish but i wouldn't be surprised
if there are norse references in there too whether
it is as you say applied to weapons or items
or armor upgrades and that kind of thing because
of course it's set in hell i don't think that
hell is definitely not the norse hell it's very
much demons and zombies and undead and all sorts
of things It's one of those types of games I
couldn't play because it's just too violent.
Because again, I'd get mobbed, I can't stop.
I couldn't sludge. I could watch my husband play
it, but I couldn't play it. Yeah, I mean, even
the previous two rebooted Doom games, Doom from
2016, I think, and Doom Eternal, its sequel.
I think Dark Ages 1 is a prequel, which is why
they're going back to the middle ages. But even
especially Doom Eternal had a lot of dark, medieval
fantasy aesthetics, because you're not always
just in Hell. You're either in space, on these
alien slash heavenly divine planets, you're in
Hell or you're in the home planet of the people
who sort of created and trained the Slayer or
these combination like sci -fi order of knights.
kind of Spartan society that live in space and
they have extremely advanced technology, but
they choose to live in big generic medieval castles
and they use technology, but they choose to use
iron gates and things like that. So there's already
sort of a heavy blending of dark fantasy medievalism
with sci -fi elements in the game. So they're
just leaning all the way into that and making
a knockoff Bayou tapestry thing, which is just
really amusing to me. It is. I will try and find
the link and put it in the blurb below for any
viewers and listeners that don't believe me,
but it is real. I don't know if it's still there.
I only came across it. It literally popped up
through the windows of the Instagram algorithm.
It somehow must have connected that I like games.
You were blessed. There you go. But yes, it'll
be something interesting to see. how well Norse
does when that comes out later this year and
of course I don't think I'm aware of any of the
computer games certainly touching on the historical
aspect of Vikings. There's a lot more coming
out that again dealing with the fantastical and
mythological aspect. I guess that relates to
what you said in a previous podcast on Nordic
mythology, Luca, about how much fantasy and fantasy
literature has that's kept Vikings and Norse
mythology particularly malleable in the context
of games and interactive storytelling in a way.
Yeah yeah it's like I was saying with the sci
-fi stuff it's it's everywhere in these kind
of either discrete elements I mean you can already
say that there's uh in Doom the Dark Ages just
quickly there's a dragon the western fantasy
dragon is inherently kind of a rooted in in Norse
Old Norse and Old English culture the greedy
kind of gold hoarding dragon is this northern
european dragon so that's technically technically
a little a little norse reference but it's it's
been you know refracted and reflected and re
-represented and channeled through so many layers
of of history and intermeeting text that it's
lost all of its kind of flavor in the sense but
now it's just kind of part of the part of the
stock imagery of especially of dark fantasy with
heavy metal soundtracks touched upon this earlier
in the sense of the Viking Age in particular
of all of medieval Europe quotation marks is
probably the most ripe for playing with these
fancy tropes because we don't have written evidence
apart from a few runic sources from the Viking
Age proper like Viking Age Scandinavia you know
we haven't got writings from everything around
it or beyond it so it really is a blanker canvas
to play with in a lot of medieval Europe, so
you can fill in those gaps with the fantasy elements.
And a lot of the tabletop designers will say
as much, they'll say, you know, we stuck to history
where we could, but where there are gaps, we're
going with the sagas because it's more fun. So
that's what a lot of people are playing with
there. Definitely. It's certainly something I
noticed with, of course, going back to... old
one of Assassin's Creed Valhalla because I really
enjoy playing their discovery tour which they
had like free expansion again they can call it
roguelite or not because it's got no combat at
all it's basically just like free wandering role
play and you encounter all the different things
that they were using for not just the concept
app but what they then just placed in the game
and showing like oh we looked at this artifact
and this museum and this wonderful country over
here and then we put it here and ta -da! and
i really kind of like that because of course
it's got that educational angle of kind of like
enabling people to see these artifacts that really
existed and that's what they're basing it on
without having to travel around the world and
see things um i can know it's got an amber bead
that um i think dr cat jam and bound i think
it was amber bead i could be wrong it is you're
nodding emma so i'm going to assume i'm right
um and i know in terms of runes and Old Norse
language. They had an acquaintance of mine called
Marge of Ackville. I can never get her surname
right but I kind of always do when I see her
name on there kind of thing. Because I know they've
gone to reputable people about reputable things
because of course you as historians and those
who study the literature and know about what
really happened to a degree because of course
we never really know what truly happened and
what these people truly thought can kind of undeniably
get a bit I guess a bit wrinkled about seeing
certain interpretations taken too far or using
the words of your language or items in the wrong
way kind of thing. It's I mean I personally just
have a pee with Assassin's Creed having to mine
with your actual weapon but that's not it's just
that it just takes up the realism of that particular
aspect entirely even though you do have a blacksmith
in your village so why can't you just hire someone
to mine but anyway that's something else. Ubisoft
Studios to sort out some of that kind of thing.
So I guess both as players and as creators we
almost have to have that imaginary fourth wall,
have to suspend our disbelief and allow the slightly
impossible to happen because if we don't then
are we limiting or not confide, well limiting
ourselves and kind of like what we can do. because
I guess it's almost like deciding what rules
to have in a game. You have so many rules to
have, so much to happen, but then if you don't
have this rule, then that won't happen, I suppose,
in my very rambling way of saying something sensible.
Yeah, I think it is tricky for game designers,
for players, for scholars of any kind, whether
that be professional or not, in terms of how
do you balance all the different concerns of
a game while still trying to I guess not misconstrue
something in a way that's unhelpful or problematic.
So what I kind of I guess encourage is just going
for that historical resonance rather than necessarily
outright accuracy. Like does this feel true if
not necessarily real in the sense of like are
the elements there and just approaching things
from a historically expansive mindset rather
than historically limiting. So obviously Viking
gender is a really hot topic and we can prescribe
a lot of rules on that we can say like you can't
play a woman in games and things like that but
actually let's kind of explore what you can do
as those other people in those spaces. It's very
true certainly it makes me think back to the
way Disney have kind of put that little blurb
in front of some of their films now especially
kind of like with Peter Pan saying this film
depicts certain views of a certain type of person
and we just you know we're in the 21st century
now we don't hold those views anymore but this
was made back then and so please just forgive
them and move on because we can't go back and
challenge and correct them. It's so I sometimes
get a bit puzzled as to why some people want
some of their old Dahl books to be rewritten
because some language he uses might be found
as insulting now but I'm thinking well they weren't
good for generations if they haven't been found
insulting then is it is it us that's changed
compared to the medium or is it the medium that's
now a perspective change I suppose but then that's
back on us but I guess it's interesting to see
in terms of how gameplay works and representation
of not just like as I mentioned about women either
either she were maidens of all this. Quite often
everyone wants to be the fighter, they want to
be the strong fighter, they want to be the one
going around wielding a shield and axe and riding
a longship, or not riding a longship, well you
could do I suppose, sailing a longship and that
kind of thing. You don't want to miss out on
the big actions and the imagery that we have
associated with Vikings. So I think we're going
to have to wrap it up because I know I've been
talking to you both for a very long time. because
it's very late at the time this recording debut
is in business and I know these guys at least
certainly I do I don't want some sleep at some
point but I hope you've both enjoyed this really
insightful conversation I think we've touched
on all sorts so much and the conversations had
a lovely natural meander and flow on all these
topics so I thank you very much for your time
guys thank you thank you yeah thanks If anyone
viewing or listening wants to check out what
you're studying or researching, is there anywhere
they can go? Have you got any articles, works
that you can point them to, or just direct you
to follow them on socials, et cetera? Emma? Yep.
I'm trying to remember what my handles are on
various places. So I'm still on... uh twitter
slash x at emlthom but i'm otherwise rkm on blue
sky and instagram so a r c h a and then emma
um and then yeah in terms of things coming up
uh i'm back on nordic mythology podcast next
month sometime of the month after and there are
a few of those kicking around as well but uh
yeah stuff in pipeline will emerge on the platforms
as and when they do. Very good. Yeah, I am on
Twitter at Luca A. Panaro. I don't really post
that much. I should do more. I did send you,
Becky, the link to my first publication, which
is on the first Norse god of war. It's a very
deep dive on how it plays and subverts the prose
edda, kind of the main Norse mythological text,
how it turns out on its head. I'm going to do
expand that a bit in the article that will be
in our mutual volume from the Stavanger conference.
Otherwise, yeah, I don't have anything. That's
all good. a couple of articles eventually. It's
all good because of course we're all busy in
our own lives. Emma, what do you teach at university,
do you not? I have taught a little bit about
Viking death so I got to tell some third year
students at midday on a Wednesday what happens
when you die and got some some lovely looks and
response. Cool. And do you do any kind of academic
work on the side as well, Luke, or are you just
researching mainly? Oh, no, I also teach every
now and then. Actually, this fall, I'll get to
teach another course or a rehash of the course
that I got to teach for the first time two years
ago, which is explicitly on a popular Viking
reception. It's taught in thirds with someone
on my committee who does museum studies approaches
to Vikings and she's really into also like reenactment,
metal festivals, HEMA type stuff. So she talks
about all of that. Someone else will be talking
about Viking movies and TV shows and I'll be
doing Viking video games in the third, third,
last third. So I'm really looking forward to
that in the fall. Sounds really good. I wish
I could be part of that class. Just because I
love to learn anything to do with Vikings. And
of course, one perception is a huge rainbow spectrum
of content. It's why I do this podcast because
there's so much out there. But thank you very
much for your time. We've definitely talked more
and longer than I thought. I hope you enjoyed
it. I hope you enjoy your sleep after this. And
thank you dear viewers and listeners wherever
you are watching. Please hit subscribe wherever
you are so you don't miss out on the next Valhalla
Conversations episode. Episode 16 which will
feature a lovely author friend of mine called
Genevieve Cornishak. She has written two books,
The Witch's Heart and a really great one called
The Weaver and the Witch Queen about Gunnhild
and Erik Bloodhacks. and she herself is undertaking
a journey into academic research herself very
soon, I believe it's with Iceland as well. So
I'll be quizzing her and asking her on how I
can get on board and escape my part -time job
and being a parent. If only someone could pay
me to do it. Anyway, thank you very much for
listening and we shall hopefully see and speak
to you all again soon. Thank you very much everyone.
Thank you very much for listening to this episode.
I hope you enjoyed the discussions between my
special guests and myself. Please do check out
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