WEBVTT

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Welcome to Valhalla Conversations, episode 15,

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part 2. If you have yet to watch part 1, I encourage

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you to please go find it in either my YouTube

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channel or my Spotify channel, wherever you're

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watching or listening today. But if you have

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indeed watched part 1, then welcome back to Valhalla,

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and we continue our fascinating discussion with

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special guests Luca Panaro and Emma Thompson

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on the topic. of Vikings in games and Norse games.

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We hope you enjoy the conversation. Something

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that's because you mentioned yeah like Iceland

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and folklore and being strangely overlooked because

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of course this is where all the literature mostly

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survives from but people think more about Denmark,

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Norway and Sweden. Because these are the places

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that have these really dramatic fjord landscapes.

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And we have fjords in Iceland that are just not

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very steep and impressive, with these huge cliffs,

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like in Norway especially. But they're still

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very beautiful. But there's a game coming out

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that's developed by one of the many small Icelandic

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game studios that I think, I was unfortunately

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out of town for the sneak peek. lecture sort

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of thing that they did a couple, like two years

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ago, I think. But it's called Isle of Wind. And

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I think they're working with several folklorists

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on it. And instead of being set in the Viking

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Age, it's set in, I believe, the 17th century.

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And you kind of play as like a semi -CRS woman,

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who's, I think, the premise is that many people

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in her probably region or district or at least

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just village, have just disappeared and she has

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to somehow work with folkloric beings and set

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balance with local land spirits and things like

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that in order to rebalance the world. But the

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fact that it's 17th century, which we have of

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course way more information on the folklore and

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beliefs of these time periods than we do from

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the Viking Age or the settlement period regarding

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Iceland. So, it's an interesting shift that people

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will still see and say, ah, visually, you know,

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this is Viking. It's a nice one. It's this, you

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know, kind of, you know, a CRES, vulva type that

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we see as a playable class in all these other

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Viking RPGs. But it's 17th century, so it might

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do some interesting things, hopefully. It's always

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good to hear about games coming out from other

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countries because they do bring so much freshness

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and originality to those gamers. So it's stuck

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in the same studio, the same types of games,

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and it's nice to find other ones. Speaking of

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folklore, it made me think of Rocky. I'm probably

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not pronouncing it. It's R over the two dot KI.

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folklore -ish game certainly with strong Norse

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elements that I know has got some runes and some

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trolls and some berries of some Norse type but

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it's all about a girl going around unlooking

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the history and mystery of her father and mending

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the kind of bond between them. I haven't played

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it, heard wonderful things, I've got the soundtrack

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and it's very very beautifully written but I

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know that's probably more to get from Norse folklore

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than the Norse full pantheon like the gods and

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the giants and the elves and that kind of thing.

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And, of course, dwarves keep coming up in all

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sorts of games. And, of course, in fantasy literature

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and tabletop games, because, of course, you can

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play as a dwarf. You can play as an elf. You

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can't play as a giant. They've come as close

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as a goliath, and that's now that we're where

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they've stopped. Of course, the DM can play as

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a giant. Good or bad. And of course I remember

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Emma, you were running that wonderful little

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one shot that was set in a very special, I keep

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calling it special, it's special to me because

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I got to be very old and I can do bad roles,

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I just kept blaming it all on my character stage.

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You really did have some terrible roles, I felt

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really bad because you had your own dice, you

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had your dice mat and they were just like, nah,

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not today. It's fine, sometimes that's the best

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bit, sometimes that's the best bit. still certainly

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kind of like the historical aspect, although

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it has got a bit up to the mythology into it.

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Can you tell us what, can you remember what title

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of that little one -shot? Yeah, so the one -shot

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I ran for you guys at the symposium is called

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The Final Voyage of Drangathar, which is by J

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.C. Connors, and it's on One -Shot Adventures,

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the website. He's done it for D &D Fifth Edition,

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which is what we played, but I think it's also

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for GURPS and some other systems as well. Basically,

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the premise is that, you know, powerful warlords,

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Dren Gathar goes missing. Well, not so much missing.

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He's stranded on an island. He sends some of

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his men to go get help. You return as the adventuring

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party with some Norse flavored individuals. So

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there's a berserker, there's a vulva, sort of

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magic user, and you kind of slowly uncover. you

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know that this island is infested with Draugr

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with undead and you have to save your warlord

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from becoming one himself and obviously there's

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some things about you know messing with Valhalla

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and eating beasts that you shouldn't and things

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like that and yeah kind of the reason why well

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part of the reason why I ran that was because

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sort of the organizers went oh my god you're

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doing a paper on D &D why don't we just do D

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&D which was fun but also I think Tabletop is

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a really interesting thing to study in the sense

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of, even with video games as interactive as they

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are, there's a point where they're finite. There's

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only so much people can do with a video game

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before you have to just, it has to ship, you

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have to make money at some point. Whereas tabletop

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can really just become and keep becoming anything.

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So what I've been wanting to do with this research

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is not just look at kind of the supporting text,

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but also what players do. when given free reign

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with Viking characters and what kind of preconceptions

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they're bringing to the table. So it was interesting

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that the conference one shot that I ran, so I've

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run this game five times in total and the conference

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one was the best behaved. Everyone else were

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really like, how do we break Emma? Which is obviously

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an aspect of Dungeons and Dragons of how do we

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break our friend who's running this game for

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us? Amazing. Well, I can still remember there

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was a particular moment in our little one shot

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where we came across a undead. It became undead.

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That's what we all feared. It was a dead body

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on a tree. There was a raven and it had something

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in its beak. And I think one of the other characters

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slash players spoke to the raven, a new cord,

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and he dropped it down because it opened its

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mouth. Yeah, that was me. Yeah, it was really

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funny because at no point in any of the other

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games had anyone gone, yeah, the bird has just

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vocalised, so it drops the thing in its mouth.

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And then you guys were like, yeah, clearly that's

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what happened. So they went, yep, I can't argue

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with you there. You're right. The next time I

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ran the game after you guys, I was like, no,

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it's under its talon. It's not in its mouth.

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Ah, OK. So I learnt my lesson. It is sometimes

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sneaky when we bring in reality and physics and

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science and just the actual gravity. Look, I

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know liking age facts, I don't know physics.

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Please don't bring physics to a tabletop. Oh,

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but it was a really fun one -shot and I keep

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thinking if and when we kind of get to the end

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of my current in -person tabletop game at my

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local gaming shop, I might just pull that out

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and run that for my friends. Yeah, do it. Just

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have some fun. just quickly on what Emma said

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about the sort of differences between the limits

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of computer versus tabletop, that conversely,

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like as the graphics have become much, much higher

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fidelity, and that's where we kind of draw our

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immersion from all the fact that you can look

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around, everything's really hi -fi, and there's

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an immersive soundtrack, like for something like

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Senua or Hellblade. All of these things kind

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of, and these are heavy sort of data loads. on

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the file and on the console that require fancier

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and fancier computers to run. But back in the

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day, like the earlier, there's a very nerdy,

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long video essay that I watched about the Elder

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Scrolls. And not the first one, but the second

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Elder Scrolls, Daggerfall. Supposedly the in

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-game map, because it was procedurally generated

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and looked like pixels, variously colored pixels,

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limitedly colored pixels rather. but was procedurally

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generated. Supposedly the extent of the in -game

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map was equivalent to the real world United Kingdoms

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with cities with like hundreds of thousands of

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NPCs in them or something insane like this and

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it was sort of the trade -off is you lose and

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the games have become more and more simplified

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to the way you lose, you know. In Daggerfall

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you could supposedly, you know, scale up your...

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you know, your thievery skills and your acrobatic

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skills to the extent where you could become some

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sort of roof climbing, you know, cat burglar

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type person and you can't really do that in something

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like Skyrim or whatever the next Elder Scrolls

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that they'll release is, eventually. These sort

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of more, the more freedom, free aspects of you

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have in D &D have been scaled back as graphical

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fidelity has become the sort of mainstay of the

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RPG genre, so. you can still, you know, you can't

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have, you can't talk to a bird and make it drop

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a key that's not designed. And even when it's

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designed, you can somehow make the DM, you can

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convince the DM, you cannot convince a computer

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that you're right. Yeah, it's certainly an interesting

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point because it makes me think to Assassin's

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Creed Valhalla where it always irks me that you

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can ride across half the country in about 10

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minutes. it's it's too small and of course to

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touch on our other topic about Vikings and always

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being in cold places they have of course with

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the north of England cold it's winter and yet

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in the rest of the land it's spring or summer

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and I'm like how that does not geographically

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climatically happen it just doesn't but I guess

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it's almost echoing kind of like the game of

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thrones and come out the north and the wall and

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all the ice people nuts that's where they come

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from What's quite interesting, though, thinking

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about what you're saying about crossing England

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in no amount of time whatsoever, is in Dungeons

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and Dragons, for example, in the handbook, it

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sort of tells you this is how many miles a horse

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can do a day before you might need to roll for

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exhaustion because you're pushing the horse too

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hard. That's actually easier to embed in a video

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game in the sense of you put some code in that's

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like, the horse has been riding for x many miles.

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pop up with something that says the horse needs

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to rest. Whereas in D &D, as a DM, you have to

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go, how many miles have they traveled? And like,

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have they done it fast? Have they been pushing

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the horse? Have they been feeding the horse?

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Often they don't feed the horse. So it's easier

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to actually embed that realism into the video

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game versus tabletop. I actually think tabletop

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accounts more for it. It gives you more of a

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like, you should be doing this and this cost

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this much, and so on and so on. Yeah, if you

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choose to. make this type of gameplay kind of

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more realistic or gritty sort of survivalist

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style, then there's many suggestions and rule

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sets to sort of enable that type of gameplay.

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And people do this, usually players choose to

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add these things through modifications or mods

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in video games. There's another, one of us few

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Old Norse game scholars. Victoria Cooper has

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written an article about modding gritty, realistic

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medievalism into Skyrim by making more advanced

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weather systems. There is a survival mode in

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one of the Skyrim Anniversary Edition. They made

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this mode called survivalism where you have to

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eat and rest and get warm and things like that.

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The players have pushed that further and made

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it more realistic with all kinds of things. And

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so this is something that players want, and so

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they custom make this content for their games

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sometimes, when it's possible. Interesting. It

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certainly brings me back memories, of course,

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of a Viking game called Sims, because of course

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in Sims, you've got to eat, sleep. go buy food,

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cook the food, clean up or get racks and also

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it is almost like a reflection of the rules of

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D &D, kind of like how many rules do you want

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to add, how many conditions do you want to try

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and jump and challenge through. And in terms

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of survival games there's one that I have played

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a bit and I played it during its beta phase as

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well as its alpha phase which is called Tribes

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of Midgard. I don't know if either of you have

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heard of that one. It's very mythological based

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and I have to say I do quite like the style of

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it and I did get some of the cats. These are

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exclusive cats. This is one. This is called Sonia.

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They do have Norse names but don't ask me to

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pronounce them. And then they have this one which

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is a new one. There were only 300 produced because

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they wanted to give money to a cat charity on

00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:57.970
their third year anniversary. That's so sweet.

00:13:59.490 --> 00:14:01.769
My daughter likes them too. Thankfully she's

00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:05.330
happily sharing them with me. it's on my desk

00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:07.190
and keep me company and it reminds me that I

00:14:07.190 --> 00:14:09.629
still need to go and play because I do quite

00:14:09.629 --> 00:14:13.750
like it's got two styles you can either have

00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:16.850
story mode or survival mode and it's for online

00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:18.629
players so you can put it up with your friends

00:14:18.629 --> 00:14:20.669
if they've brought the game a bit. You've got

00:14:20.669 --> 00:14:23.210
skins so you can look at it. I know my friend

00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:27.009
James Acheson he got me the special edition which

00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:29.720
gave me the Valkyrie armour skin. which is quite

00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.360
cool. So even though my armour is very low level,

00:14:32.539 --> 00:14:36.120
I look impressively awesome. But you kind of,

00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:38.840
again, you have to chop down trees and get the

00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.340
twigs to make the timber to make your hammer,

00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:45.259
well, the house and get berries and certain ingredients

00:14:45.259 --> 00:14:49.279
to make certain things. In terms of ore and flint

00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:53.019
and stone to make equipment and make tools. It's

00:14:53.019 --> 00:14:55.399
not as heavily farming as the previous game I

00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:57.120
mentioned that Giles Christians evolved. You

00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:59.019
don't die of starvation and cold in this one,

00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:01.720
thankfully. They've taken an hour, but every

00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.919
night there's these hell things that come out

00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.120
and try and get to your little seed of eager

00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.419
silversilge is growing and takes all the souls

00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.690
of all the animals that you kill basically. you've

00:15:11.690 --> 00:15:13.809
got goose, you've got pigs, you've got deer,

00:15:14.190 --> 00:15:15.990
you've got wolves which they will attack you

00:15:15.990 --> 00:15:18.210
if you were in them. We've also got foxes and

00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:19.750
that kind of thing, but they've got different

00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:22.169
lands where they've got draugr, they've got giants,

00:15:22.649 --> 00:15:25.330
they've got I think they've had four expansions

00:15:25.330 --> 00:15:28.789
since it came out properly and you can face Jormungand,

00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:32.009
you can face Fenrir, you could face Hel, and

00:15:32.009 --> 00:15:34.190
then the last one I believe you can face Loki

00:15:34.190 --> 00:15:36.070
but they've never really revealed that one because

00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:38.649
they want place to go find it sometimes. But

00:15:38.649 --> 00:15:42.120
that's what I think. But you're basically, Ayn

00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.559
and Harrod are just like on a holiday down in

00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.059
this land where you just survive until you go

00:15:47.059 --> 00:15:51.240
to Valhalla basically. But the mythology is really

00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.940
deeply ingrained in every aspect of it. So I

00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:56.139
remember coming across the recipe for like the

00:15:56.139 --> 00:16:00.200
level two sword and it was called Cygni's Revenge.

00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:01.980
Because of course not many people know about

00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:04.519
Cygni, or Cygni, if I can get the name right,

00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:06.820
which is Loki's wife who's there holding a bowl

00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:09.159
of poison and taking it away and letting Loki

00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.500
to action. putting it back and of course it's

00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:13.759
a nice odd to how deep they've gone into the

00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.059
pantheon they're not just going with the classic

00:16:15.059 --> 00:16:18.440
of Odin Thor and Hingal and Frey and Loki and

00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:20.179
that they've actually nodded to all the other

00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:23.019
ones as well but it's fun it takes time I only

00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:24.860
ever play it on my own to know how many players

00:16:24.860 --> 00:16:27.320
there are many friends who play games typically

00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.940
so I'm often on solo games then usually so I

00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:32.799
am on the solo survival mode which is where I

00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.179
kind of like the days are longer and the nights

00:16:35.179 --> 00:16:37.259
are slightly shorter but you've got no impending

00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:40.100
trap whereas if you're in story mode the whole

00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:42.460
thing kind of like gets stronger as you get stronger

00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:44.379
and then you've got to go expand and find the

00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:46.779
bosses and get that ancient treasure. It was

00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:49.600
interesting, it's a fun little game to play,

00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:54.360
hard one, hard on your own, but it's fun. I can

00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:58.340
also sell a Canadian studio, I think, because

00:16:58.340 --> 00:17:00.139
I know they do a lot of their posts in French

00:17:00.139 --> 00:17:02.940
as well, which I'm feeling kind of, I could be

00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:17.700
wrong. So yeah, that's a nice one. In terms of

00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.059
kind of like touching off computer games for

00:17:20.059 --> 00:17:23.680
a bit, I've certainly got a couple of Norse table

00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:31.839
games. One I've got is called Raven's Race. I

00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:36.640
love that one. It's so simple and cute. Yeah,

00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:38.460
it's a very good one. I feel that you're about

00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:41.420
to explain it, so I will let you. No, by all

00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:43.039
means. I mean, I think it's called Raven's race.

00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:44.900
I know it involves human and meaning and you've

00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:46.839
got little cars that represent the realms and

00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:48.299
it's almost a bit like dominoes that you've got

00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:51.279
to match them up to help your ravens get all

00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.259
the way around. It's kind of like each person's

00:17:53.259 --> 00:17:55.609
going anti -clockwise to the other one. so you

00:17:55.609 --> 00:17:57.349
can overlap there and you can also cheat if you

00:17:57.349 --> 00:17:59.589
get like a low card and make the other Raven

00:17:59.589 --> 00:18:03.369
get lost and go around the wrong way. It's kind

00:18:03.369 --> 00:18:06.450
of like a loop of cards and each Raven starts

00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:09.549
at sort of one end and you can basically move

00:18:09.549 --> 00:18:13.390
the cards up and down and that screws over the

00:18:13.390 --> 00:18:16.450
other Raven in terms of two cross realms they

00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:18.430
have to be of a certain type and you can change

00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:20.390
the type on them it's basically about who gets

00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:22.670
their Raven back to Odin first but it's just

00:18:22.670 --> 00:18:25.670
it's very simple. The art style on the cards

00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:27.210
is really nice. It sort of has the different

00:18:27.210 --> 00:18:30.309
realms on it. And it's just a very simple nod

00:18:30.309 --> 00:18:33.509
to Viking mythology, which I think is quite engaging.

00:18:34.109 --> 00:18:37.130
So yeah, a quick, easy game. And obviously a

00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:39.930
lot of board games can be very rule -intensive

00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:41.849
and daunting in terms of just approaching a box

00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:44.670
and going, you know, we need to spend an hour

00:18:44.670 --> 00:18:46.190
before we can even play the game. So I think

00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.410
it's quite a good way to come into it. Yeah.

00:18:50.949 --> 00:18:52.730
Because I certainly going back, we were just

00:18:52.730 --> 00:18:56.210
going back at least, at least nine years now,

00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:59.430
back before pandemic was even a blip on the horizon.

00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:03.329
And when I had some more local D &D friends,

00:19:04.009 --> 00:19:05.670
when we couldn't play a D &D game, we'd often

00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:07.730
play other games instead, if like one player

00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:10.109
was missing. And I know they got out, I can't

00:19:10.109 --> 00:19:12.150
remember the name, it was some kind of strategic

00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:14.650
Norse game, but it was kind of resource based.

00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:17.309
They each played like a gel type character, a

00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.849
common figure in this Norse society, and he had

00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:23.549
to collect. enough water, enough food, enough

00:19:23.549 --> 00:19:25.690
ships, enough gold, that kind of thing. I never

00:19:25.690 --> 00:19:27.769
had the most resources, would at the end basically.

00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:31.210
So that was an interesting one. And I do have

00:19:31.210 --> 00:19:33.809
another one. I'm just going, in fact, I've got

00:19:33.809 --> 00:19:36.390
two to show off, ladies and gentlemen. I will

00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:39.509
disappear into the hall, into the hall beyond.

00:19:42.369 --> 00:19:45.930
It was by the cooking pots. I have them, they're

00:19:45.930 --> 00:19:49.609
here. And the first one is this one, All Thingy.

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.740
This is a good one to play. I think I've only

00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:54.740
ever played it twice and it's a very good strategic

00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:57.339
game. It's set in Iceland, more historical than

00:19:57.339 --> 00:20:00.259
a classical card game. Again, you've got to kind

00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:03.579
of like match resources to select the right members

00:20:03.579 --> 00:20:05.839
of the cards because all these characters are

00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.319
here, the viewers and listeners. Well, many viewers,

00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.059
because you can see listeners, you need to join

00:20:10.059 --> 00:20:14.700
the YouTube so you can see. And they're all characters

00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:18.859
based on sagas or almost literature. at the time

00:20:18.859 --> 00:20:20.700
and you've got to recruit them because you're

00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:26.539
a um what's the word i've forgotten the word

00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:30.400
does the box tell me huff thingy i don't know

00:20:34.450 --> 00:20:36.329
I want to say alfalfa but it's the wrong word,

00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:38.529
it's not quite a yarl because that's a very much

00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:41.589
a Norwegian thing but you're basically a chieftain

00:20:41.589 --> 00:20:44.069
of sorts in one of the other four regions of

00:20:44.069 --> 00:20:46.690
Iceland and so you recruit people and then after

00:20:46.690 --> 00:20:48.890
recruiting people with your resource cards because

00:20:48.890 --> 00:20:51.450
some people like saying things they then have

00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:53.230
kind of like a home gang at the end of the day

00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:55.640
and you put forward your champion and then and

00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.099
the resource cards become a weapons card or an

00:20:58.099 --> 00:21:00.099
armour card and whoever has the most numbers.

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.160
It's a very good counting game, I will say that.

00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.460
It's not as intense as D &D in numbers, but it's

00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:07.460
there. And then you kind of like get points if

00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:09.599
you win like the most home games that night and

00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.779
then it's kind of like a day rotation and it

00:21:11.779 --> 00:21:15.579
carries around. But yeah, this was designed by...

00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:17.890
a really cool guy called Joshua Gilligan he's

00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:20.150
actually an earlier episode I think he was episode

00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:23.690
11 in January so do go listen to my episode and

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:25.769
talk to him about it but he's done an expansion

00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.789
pack called Saga Heroes again I haven't played

00:21:28.789 --> 00:21:31.490
that pack yet but it comes it basically is another

00:21:31.490 --> 00:21:34.509
supplement of characters to go with the all thingy

00:21:34.509 --> 00:21:37.890
one will rise card game So do recommend, go find

00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:39.849
that. At Outland Entertainment, that's where

00:21:39.849 --> 00:21:42.289
you can get this beauty. And then this one, it's

00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:43.710
still in its cellophane, ladies and gentlemen,

00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:45.430
so I'm not even opening it yet. This is what

00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:47.750
I treated myself at Yorvik Festival this year.

00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:50.829
It's like the radars, because it's got an award.

00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:53.089
I thought, well, it must be a good candy that's

00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:57.029
got an award. And this simply says on the back,

00:21:57.230 --> 00:21:59.329
you are a merciless Viking chief on a mission

00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:01.589
to get the biggest Navy, the largest plan and

00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:04.210
the most loot. So again, I'm thinking resource

00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:06.809
management and collection. With those raiding,

00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:09.150
plundering and interference from the Null Scots,

00:22:09.529 --> 00:22:12.089
always a bonus. And you will feel totally Viking

00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:14.730
from the first draw until long after the final

00:22:14.730 --> 00:22:17.069
backstabbing and bloodthirsty move. Well, I am

00:22:17.069 --> 00:22:19.109
hooked already. I just need someone to play it

00:22:19.109 --> 00:22:21.509
with. You all need to move nearer to me. You're

00:22:21.509 --> 00:22:25.910
all moving too far away. So I don't know if either

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:27.890
of you two have come across those two games or

00:22:27.890 --> 00:22:31.950
played them? If not, don't worry. Yeah, I'd heard

00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:34.509
of all thingy, but no, I hadn't. And maybe I've

00:22:34.509 --> 00:22:36.930
seen Viking Raiders, but no, not played them.

00:22:37.029 --> 00:22:40.390
I think we kind of touched upon this with board

00:22:40.390 --> 00:22:43.450
games and probably tabletop role playing as well.

00:22:43.910 --> 00:22:45.769
Video games have kind of got tutorials down to

00:22:45.769 --> 00:22:47.750
an art at this point, like so many video games

00:22:47.750 --> 00:22:49.829
have done tutorials. They know exactly how you're

00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:52.829
supposed to get the player onto things. board

00:22:52.829 --> 00:22:57.190
game rules can be really really dense and I know

00:22:57.190 --> 00:22:58.930
so many people who go to these board game cafes

00:22:58.930 --> 00:23:00.730
and they will just pick the same board games

00:23:00.730 --> 00:23:02.970
up again because they know how to play and it

00:23:02.970 --> 00:23:06.150
just saves your time so it's right it looks to

00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:08.930
me like viking raiders is the kind of game that

00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:11.009
sort of makes it as simple to get into as possible

00:23:11.009 --> 00:23:13.329
I imagine all thingy is maybe a bit denser on

00:23:13.329 --> 00:23:16.730
the rule set but it's interesting I guess in

00:23:16.730 --> 00:23:18.890
terms of the tabletop stuff being role playing

00:23:18.890 --> 00:23:21.910
or board games how much pressure there is on

00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.000
whoever is the designated rules lawyer to kind

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.160
of adequately draw people in compared to a video

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.559
game, which is programmed and has loads of people

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.759
kind of giving feedback on how to engage the

00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:43.740
player. Yeah, when I was in. Yeah, when I was

00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:49.880
in New York, visiting after the last IMC. I think

00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:55.049
I went two years ago. We did stop in like a kind

00:23:55.049 --> 00:23:57.990
of pop culture game store, and there was this,

00:23:58.009 --> 00:23:59.670
I think it's this game, I've looked it up, called

00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:03.269
Vedr. And it's spelled with just a D instead

00:24:03.269 --> 00:24:09.650
of an S, but I think it was this one. It was

00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:11.730
either this or something called Reykjald or something,

00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:14.490
just something very Icelandic. But this description

00:24:14.490 --> 00:24:20.109
is very amusing, that Icelanders have always

00:24:20.109 --> 00:24:22.940
been. obsessed with the weather, including today.

00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:26.079
It's entirely around, you know, kind of mixing

00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.180
Viking and modern Icelandic preoccupations with

00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:32.279
the weather into some kind of board games, though.

00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.619
But I always see these really interesting ones

00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:38.339
that pick up very niche Norse words or topics.

00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:41.079
And I'm always fascinated by the spelling, too.

00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:44.839
That's one of my weird... Popeye, I guess, like

00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:47.579
with the one you just showed us, Becky, Althingi,

00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:50.819
the fact that it's Althingi with the I. but a

00:24:50.819 --> 00:24:53.819
th. Well, they have to have a th, because otherwise

00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:56.559
people will say all pingy when they have a thought.

00:24:57.819 --> 00:24:59.579
But then most people know what the all thing

00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:02.279
is if you're sort of an aficionado of Viking

00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:06.059
stuff. But they might not necessarily understand

00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:08.539
why there's an i tacked on at the end. So the

00:25:08.539 --> 00:25:12.279
kind of mix of pressures, types of pressures

00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:14.579
when it comes to using words and names and things

00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:20.490
like that is always very interesting to me. you

00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:24.430
might like to look up a campaign sourcebook called

00:25:24.430 --> 00:25:27.329
When the Wolf Comes by Mr Ian Stewart Sharpe,

00:25:27.589 --> 00:25:30.309
aka, as I call him, Mr Vikingverse, because his

00:25:30.309 --> 00:25:33.509
brain is enormous on this subject, because it's

00:25:33.509 --> 00:25:35.990
basically Vikings in space, in a very futuristic,

00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:38.509
doomed, as if, kind of like, as if the Vikings,

00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:41.170
as if, I say the Vikings, I'm doing it myself,

00:25:41.490 --> 00:25:44.410
as if the Scandinavian people basically invented

00:25:44.410 --> 00:25:47.809
everything that, this regard, kind of like the

00:25:47.809 --> 00:25:51.480
Far East, the West, us in Europe they did everything

00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:53.579
they made science they made medicine they made

00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:56.519
technology and Odin just gave them the winning

00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.000
card every time basically he's just defying the

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.960
norms and so in this alternate universe everything

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.519
is deeply Norse and how he says a lot of the

00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:06.799
words I can't get over I can't pronounce them

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.779
I had the honor and privilege and shame in a

00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:13.720
way of being on his actual play podcast called

00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:17.900
Vikings and Valkyries and my character kind of

00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:20.690
died That's all I'm going to say. Spoilers, because

00:26:20.690 --> 00:26:22.750
there's 22 episodes out there. Please do go listen

00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:25.490
to it. It's a lot of fun, but nearly every episode

00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:28.730
has a character death. That's what I will say.

00:26:29.230 --> 00:26:31.650
As his tagline goes, don't get too attached to

00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:36.130
the characters at the table. But that is deeply

00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:39.410
Norse. A lot of his linguistics is really...

00:26:39.929 --> 00:26:42.269
I think it definitely honours, if not reflects,

00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:45.230
Old Norse really well. I know I tried to recruit

00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:47.529
Emma to get onto the podcast, but things are

00:26:47.529 --> 00:26:49.390
busy in your life and that's understandable.

00:26:50.309 --> 00:26:55.690
I can barely schedule my own D &D. Oh, don't

00:26:55.690 --> 00:26:57.349
talk to me about scheduling a D &D because I've

00:26:57.349 --> 00:26:59.690
had not one but two D &D games cancelled this

00:26:59.690 --> 00:27:01.869
week because of scheduling issues. As we call

00:27:01.869 --> 00:27:04.109
them scheduling gremlins, they get everywhere.

00:27:05.589 --> 00:27:07.990
I think we just all need to have a dedicated

00:27:07.990 --> 00:27:11.009
hour. of almost like worship, we just all have

00:27:11.009 --> 00:27:15.910
an hour of D &D every week. But that one is good

00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:18.089
if you're interested in all those linguistics

00:27:18.089 --> 00:27:21.630
and games and of course that is taking Vikings

00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:24.150
both the history and the mythology completely

00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:28.490
beyond in different angles to being either mythological

00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:31.789
or historical. But I know he is revising When

00:27:31.789 --> 00:27:34.210
the Wolf Comes to make kind of like almost a

00:27:34.210 --> 00:27:38.349
sequel expansion. and I can't slice me and I

00:27:38.349 --> 00:27:40.309
apologize Ian please forgive me remember the

00:27:40.309 --> 00:27:42.730
title of it he did announce it when I interviewed

00:27:42.730 --> 00:27:45.730
him back in March and so please go watch that

00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:47.869
early episode but he's instead of setting it

00:27:47.869 --> 00:27:52.650
in its futuristic tense context he's bringing

00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:54.809
it back into the historical and he's not sending

00:27:54.809 --> 00:27:56.750
it in Europe he's not setting it in Scandinavia

00:27:56.750 --> 00:27:59.049
not even in Iceland not even in Greenland and

00:27:59.049 --> 00:28:01.950
New Zealand he's setting it in Constantinople

00:28:01.950 --> 00:28:05.509
otherwise known as Miklagrad to the Vikings and

00:28:05.690 --> 00:28:08.630
that's a really interesting place to put them.

00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:11.849
And thankfully, when he reveals the cover on

00:28:11.849 --> 00:28:14.470
the episode, there are no hothelmets inside.

00:28:16.910 --> 00:28:19.490
But he's still revising it, kind of like keeping

00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:21.450
the same rules and obviously making different

00:28:21.450 --> 00:28:24.690
classes, different contexts. There's a bit of

00:28:24.690 --> 00:28:28.740
almost... settlement building, very similar in

00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:30.579
the way of Assassin's Creed where you have El

00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:32.200
Halloway go and get a settlement and you have

00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:34.779
to build it and you get extra boons and benefits.

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.660
But I know that mechanic's involved in his next

00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:39.539
expansion coming up and I believe he'll be kick

00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:41.700
-starting that one, hopefully, later at some

00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:43.660
point this year. He's told me he'll let me know.

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.619
So I will let you all know, dear viewers and

00:28:45.619 --> 00:28:48.039
listeners. And anyone else interested? Because

00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:50.920
I certainly will be. Because I got my own NPC

00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:53.299
artwork in the first one, so I might do, if he

00:28:53.299 --> 00:28:56.140
offers it as another extra kind of like... initiative

00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:57.960
to get money and I might throw my money in and

00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:03.940
get my artwork done again. So that's I think

00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:06.359
that's the only one I've come across of all my

00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.400
other Norse inspired source books that touched

00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.079
on it historically. Nearly all of them are very

00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.019
fixed in the mythology and then the magical and

00:29:14.019 --> 00:29:16.920
fantastical side of things because I know I've

00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.779
got Spuland which I know Emma is familiar with

00:29:19.779 --> 00:29:22.019
because that was on your list at your presentation

00:29:22.019 --> 00:29:24.559
and I've recently they've got an expansion to

00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.130
their Sourcebooks have very money at that one

00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:29.309
for that one as well. I don't know if I'll ever

00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:31.069
play these ladies and gentlemen, but I just like

00:29:31.069 --> 00:29:33.529
looking at the artwork. Especially because I

00:29:33.529 --> 00:29:37.589
know Speland did have a Valkyrie NPC character

00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:39.730
type. I thought, oh, she actually goes to like

00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:42.690
booms or woes depending on who she wants to die

00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:45.109
or survive. That was a really interesting use

00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:47.730
of the Valkyrie mechanic. But there was another

00:29:47.730 --> 00:29:53.769
one called Journey to Ragnarok by Manor Project

00:29:53.769 --> 00:29:57.480
Studio. I think. Yep, got their beautiful books.

00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.160
I've done a little humble unboxing video on my

00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:01.619
YouTube channel as well, if anyone wants to go

00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:05.000
look at that. And I know they actually announced

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.200
a while back, before Christmas, that I'd be in

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.079
the group that streamed their plays on Twitch.

00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:12.279
We're doing it. And because one of the players

00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:14.279
wanted to be Valkyrie, they deliberately then

00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:18.869
invented a Valkyrie class. They told that to

00:30:18.869 --> 00:30:20.569
the studio, Manapodic Studio, then Manapodic

00:30:20.569 --> 00:30:22.690
Studio, then made that available. I haven't actually

00:30:22.690 --> 00:30:25.390
downloaded it already. I have bookmarked the

00:30:25.390 --> 00:30:28.190
email. It's been bookmarked for a very long time.

00:30:28.670 --> 00:30:30.329
But again, because I think Val Quixy is on my

00:30:30.329 --> 00:30:32.329
catnet lately, isn't she? She said it already.

00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:36.170
I mention nearly every episode, really. I'm always

00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:37.990
interested in how that's interpreted because

00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:40.710
it's such a different stance from Sheel Maidens

00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:44.309
or Wolvers of women in Norse games, of course.

00:30:44.750 --> 00:30:47.309
Yeah, I think the interesting point about Sphiland

00:30:47.309 --> 00:30:50.869
and Journey to Ragnarok is these are both campaign

00:30:50.869 --> 00:30:53.589
settings or module extensions for Dungeons and

00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:57.329
Dragons, so these will tend to lean as far into

00:30:57.329 --> 00:31:00.390
the fantasy elements as possible because in theory

00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:04.269
these settings are set up so an existing adventuring

00:31:04.269 --> 00:31:06.650
party who've gone around Faerun, which is sort

00:31:06.650 --> 00:31:09.750
of Dungeons and Dragons' default continent, can

00:31:09.750 --> 00:31:12.509
go off to these lands and still work as normal,

00:31:12.549 --> 00:31:14.980
so that's kind of where that leaning into fantasy

00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:17.460
comes there. But there are a couple which lean

00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:20.019
more historical, but not many. It's usually in

00:31:20.019 --> 00:31:22.819
that at least pseudo mythical space, if not outright

00:31:22.819 --> 00:31:27.039
fantasy. But that also kind of is because of

00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.220
how combat heavy a lot of these games are. It's

00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:31.900
a case of if we were really realistic with combat

00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:34.440
and it was just people with swords, people with

00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.200
axes, people with bows, you know. still fun but

00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:40.079
you're kind of playing the same character as

00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:41.940
everyone else so magic gives you a lot more to

00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:44.599
play with in terms of I get to do this and you

00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:46.559
get to do something completely different in combat

00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:52.640
synergy and all that fun stuff. Yeah I forget

00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:58.299
how much I went into this in my Stavanger presentation

00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:02.220
of the article but in the in the actual written

00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:05.859
article I go a bit sort of a little bit with

00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.059
Assassin's Creed Valhalla about how it tries

00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:13.680
to establish itself as sort of like a historically

00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:19.380
realistic depiction of Viking Age England, as

00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.500
problematic as anybody who sees the Viking Age

00:32:21.500 --> 00:32:25.759
will tell you its representation is. But regardless,

00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:33.160
there's some sort of inherent synergy like Emma

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:37.549
was discussing between these more heroic mythic

00:32:37.549 --> 00:32:41.430
settings and the action of games with their sort

00:32:41.430 --> 00:32:45.289
of default as being this power fantasy. And of

00:32:45.289 --> 00:32:47.990
course, we have disempowerment fantasies in the

00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:50.150
form of horror games where all you can do is

00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:51.970
run away and you have no way to fight back against

00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:54.269
monsters and things like that. But by and large,

00:32:54.470 --> 00:32:57.990
the majority of games are power fantasies, especially

00:32:57.990 --> 00:33:03.410
RPGs. And so even in this historically accurate

00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:06.349
representation of Viking Age England, that they

00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:10.309
try to create with all of these, you know, actual

00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:13.329
academic consults and historical research that

00:33:13.329 --> 00:33:17.609
they do on these games. The reality that they

00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:20.490
kind of depict still looks more like one of these

00:33:20.490 --> 00:33:23.430
superhuman saga heroes who's able to, you know,

00:33:24.490 --> 00:33:27.910
just kill 50 men in a single battle single -handedly.

00:33:28.390 --> 00:33:30.950
You know, several times in a five -hour play

00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:32.490
session or something, you're just killing hundreds

00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:35.829
of people. And your allies are helping, but you're

00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:38.750
doing the heavy lifting. So you're one of these,

00:33:38.750 --> 00:33:42.009
you know, A .L. Scott, Le Grimson, together type,

00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:45.470
you know, mythic heroic on the border of, you

00:33:45.470 --> 00:33:48.509
know, written history and the mythic past where

00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:51.009
there's monsters and gods walking amongst us.

00:33:51.809 --> 00:33:54.809
So this sort of this part of games brings this

00:33:54.809 --> 00:33:57.009
out, even in settings where they're trying to

00:33:57.009 --> 00:33:59.549
be historically accurate to a certain degree.

00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:03.009
It becomes more literary, heroic and mythic.

00:34:04.419 --> 00:34:06.819
Yeah, I mean even within, as you say Satsuki

00:34:06.819 --> 00:34:09.000
Valhalla, there is that kind of spin -off adventure

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.159
where you're basically impersonating Odin. Everyone

00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.400
calls you Odin, even though you're clearly not.

00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:18.179
And then it's basically their retelling of the

00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:20.199
Norse story. I can remember when I first encountered

00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.300
it, and then you have to protect the builder

00:34:22.300 --> 00:34:24.159
who's putting up the magical wall, because it's

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:27.599
not a stone wall. the legends say there is no

00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.860
magic horse either but he's there and you've

00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:31.599
got to fix it and you've got to fight off the

00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.599
Jotun that are swamping you single -handed. I

00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.199
found that rather interesting so I was like no

00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:37.960
I'm nearly dead can you just hurry up and fix

00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:39.739
the wall I'm trying to hit them as many times

00:34:39.739 --> 00:34:44.719
as I can. But yes that's another interesting

00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:49.539
take. There was one game and I'm gonna hopefully

00:34:49.539 --> 00:34:53.340
open Steam without ruining the recording. Where

00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:58.559
is my wish list? There's one game that I should

00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:03.519
really think of that isn't combat stuff. It kind

00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:06.639
of links back to, oh, this is it, Choice of the

00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:10.780
Viking. Have either of you heard of that before?

00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:14.659
Is this the one that Declan helped with? Yes,

00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:17.159
Declan. That was his name. I wanted to call him

00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:19.159
Eric. No, Rebecca, that's not the right name.

00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:28.719
I think he's done another one, too, or he's consulted

00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.940
slash worked closely with the people who actually

00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:36.280
do the sort of game coding, I think. I haven't

00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.320
played this one because I went to click the link

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.119
on his Twitter back in the day when he first

00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.679
mentioned it to me, and it was a dead link. So

00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:45.559
I'll email him about this to get the real link.

00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:47.340
And then I never did, because that's what always

00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:52.320
happens when you say you will do something. I

00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:53.980
was reading the blurb for that and obviously

00:35:53.980 --> 00:35:56.340
I recognised the name because I remember being

00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:58.860
at, I think it was at the Richard Hall Symposium

00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:01.579
one year or it might have been the Midlands Viking

00:36:01.579 --> 00:36:04.480
Symposium, one of the two. I've been to one of

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.400
them back before Covid and becoming a parent

00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:09.500
and that was where he was speaking about Thor

00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.719
and how he doesn't really quit thunder and this

00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.440
that and the other and his brilliant thesis which

00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.340
I keep thinking of buying and then seeing the

00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:20.559
price of and then shying away again. Yes, but

00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.219
it's a really interesting topic but I remember

00:36:22.219 --> 00:36:25.059
reading for that and how it is always echoes

00:36:25.059 --> 00:36:27.179
of the text based games back in the day where

00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:29.320
you have choices and I remember looking at the

00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:30.619
reviews and some of them are good as soon as

00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:32.179
I was like, but where are the visuals? Where

00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:34.280
are the graphics? I didn't want just text. I'm

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.139
like, did you not read the blurb? It says blurb.

00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:42.780
So I keep meaning to try that one as an interesting

00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.880
thing. And I think there was one other game on

00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:49.219
my wishlist which was similar. There's something

00:36:49.219 --> 00:36:52.659
really amusing about being upset with a text

00:36:52.659 --> 00:36:56.099
-based game when you didn't read the blurb. Can

00:36:56.099 --> 00:37:02.519
you read? That's the problem. Yeah. I'm sure

00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.039
it was called Sailing or something like that.

00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:09.800
And it has a similar premise. But certainly speaking

00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:13.320
of games coming out, one of my wishlist isn't

00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:15.659
even really early access yet, and that's called,

00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:18.639
somebody called Viking Saga, semicolon, echoes

00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.139
of Midgard. I thought, well, it's got the word

00:37:21.139 --> 00:37:23.840
Viking in it, and Midgard in it, so that's going

00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:26.400
on my wishlist. I do want to find out actually

00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:30.460
how certain words reappear in titles so much,

00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:32.920
like it may be love, but obviously God of War

00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.760
Ragnarok came out, and then Assassin's Creed's

00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.769
like... DLC was, it's Athens Creed, Valhalla,

00:37:39.030 --> 00:37:40.849
Ragnarok, and it's just like, right, yeah, we

00:37:40.849 --> 00:37:43.269
know what to expect, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:44.469 --> 00:37:48.750
I went to my own list in a node program to be

00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:50.510
like, I think I've heard of that one. I think

00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:52.050
I've heard of that one that was on, like, oh,

00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:54.829
it's forthcoming. No, it wasn't that. It's called

00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:58.949
Viking Ashes, Survivors of Ragnarok. So it's

00:37:58.949 --> 00:38:02.869
another something Viking title, Ragnarok of something.

00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:08.079
It's always the same thing. Mm -hmm. Yeah, because

00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.860
another one on my wish list is, of course, North,

00:38:12.059 --> 00:38:14.119
Earth of Blood, because that is North Viking,

00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:18.480
Midgard, obviously, comes up a few times. You've

00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.780
got Niflheim, which is kind of like a kind of

00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:26.159
like left or right playable game. Again, you've

00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.539
just got to fight your way out of Niflheim. Expeditions

00:38:29.539 --> 00:38:33.159
Viking, Valheim, and of course, Northgard, which

00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:37.769
is another successful survival stick type strategy

00:38:37.769 --> 00:38:40.889
map based game that I keep hearing a lot of and

00:38:40.889 --> 00:38:44.909
keep thinking I will play maybe one day because

00:38:44.909 --> 00:38:47.250
so many of these games are quite time intensive

00:38:47.250 --> 00:38:49.650
aren't they and I think that is partly what you

00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:52.190
said then about the rules and the mechanics involved

00:38:52.190 --> 00:38:54.530
whether it is simply you've got to make the clothes

00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:56.769
before you freeze or you've got to kill the wolves

00:38:56.769 --> 00:38:59.050
before they eat you or you've got to conquer

00:38:59.050 --> 00:39:02.570
that land before they conquer yours I can think

00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:05.170
of one game actually that isn't quite time -intensive,

00:39:05.309 --> 00:39:08.429
and that's simply called Bad North. Have I ever

00:39:08.429 --> 00:39:12.869
heard about one? Yeah. It's what they call a

00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:14.849
roguelite. I personally keep finding the words

00:39:14.849 --> 00:39:16.969
rogue and light very confusing, because how can

00:39:16.969 --> 00:39:20.010
you be a roguelite? But yeah, I think I keep

00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:21.710
needing to look up the dictionary definition

00:39:21.710 --> 00:39:23.309
of what roguelite means, but I just keep thinking,

00:39:23.329 --> 00:39:25.369
okay, roguelite means we played in short bursts.

00:39:25.929 --> 00:39:29.400
That's the way I understand it. and it's a fun

00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.179
little strategic game very beautiful artistically

00:39:32.179 --> 00:39:36.599
made nice tranquil music soundtrack and it's

00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:39.260
basically like if you imagine like the Hebrides

00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:41.679
and Shetlands but with barrows all mixed together

00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:43.980
but then mixed up there's loads of little islands

00:39:43.980 --> 00:39:46.800
different shapes different houses and you play

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:51.260
the captain or the captain or the leader of a

00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:53.840
little squad you start off with two and if you

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.519
save some people on the island then you get three

00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:57.920
and you can every time you save stop a house

00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.039
from burning from the bad vikings that's why

00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.320
it's called bad north and again this connection

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:04.400
with vikings and the north is not setting like

00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.719
the bad midlands or the bad seas it's the bad

00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:12.320
north not even the bad south um but you've got

00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:14.920
to stop these vikings like little tiny little

00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:17.300
blob like characters it's very simplified so

00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:19.239
there's there's still bloodshed you can't turn

00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:21.739
the blood effects off if you don't want the butch

00:40:21.739 --> 00:40:23.880
and I just find it's just funny splatter really

00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:27.460
it just makes me laugh but they have little pictures

00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:30.500
and little anglo -saxony type or norse -esque

00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:33.219
names a lot of the islands have names that make

00:40:33.219 --> 00:40:35.780
me think of the pharaohs and the shetlands and

00:40:35.780 --> 00:40:38.119
you've got to keep going as you go you kind of

00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.099
like your army gets leveled up with gold through

00:40:41.099 --> 00:40:43.219
wanting boons and armor and skills and upgrades

00:40:43.219 --> 00:40:45.719
and then equally the enemies get leveled up and

00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:47.840
upgraded and you can cross berserkers which can

00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:50.659
only be divided by types and then you've got

00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:52.480
archers that can actually hit your glides better

00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.039
than your archers can and me and my husband have

00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.679
tried playing it together in that hill doing

00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:59.000
island and then I'll do an island as well sometimes

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:00.840
I say oh look that's coming from the north that's

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.960
coming from the south turn around because you

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:05.780
can rotate the camera so you get a 360 degree

00:41:06.250 --> 00:41:08.929
but it's quite a fun little game to play, I would

00:41:08.929 --> 00:41:13.969
recommend it. It's funny you say like bad Midlands

00:41:13.969 --> 00:41:16.789
or whatever because there is a game that's been

00:41:16.789 --> 00:41:18.710
announced recently that I thought was a joke

00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:20.570
at first which is called God Save Birmingham

00:41:20.570 --> 00:41:24.730
or something like that and it's set in 17th century

00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:27.530
Birmingham and like zombies come out and I genuinely

00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:29.150
thought it was a joke and I was just like, oh!

00:41:29.289 --> 00:41:31.550
This is a real game, but this looks quite good.

00:41:31.670 --> 00:41:33.690
It's such an interesting choice for setting,

00:41:33.929 --> 00:41:37.429
given that 1600 Birmingham is not normally the

00:41:37.429 --> 00:41:40.610
choice. But I guess it's definitely about like,

00:41:40.610 --> 00:41:42.590
you know, where are the weird places we could

00:41:42.590 --> 00:41:44.670
set our Viking games which are a bit different

00:41:44.670 --> 00:41:48.170
to the norm? And maybe it is the Midlands. Do

00:41:48.170 --> 00:41:53.710
a Repton Talk Sea game. Yeah, that's very funny,

00:41:53.989 --> 00:41:56.309
though. I genuinely thought it was a joke because

00:41:56.309 --> 00:41:58.179
obviously Birmingham's not doing too well in

00:41:58.179 --> 00:41:59.579
the press right now, so I was just like, oh,

00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:01.639
haha, someone's made a trailer for God Save Birmingham.

00:42:01.780 --> 00:42:03.400
It's like, oh, no, this is a legitimate game.

00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:11.139
Okay. Yep. Are there any other games that we

00:42:11.139 --> 00:42:12.800
haven't talked about that you would recommend

00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.659
or think people might like if they're into Vikings

00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:20.099
and all stuff, mythological or historical, or

00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:21.739
that you personally just really like and you

00:42:21.739 --> 00:42:28.050
want to promote? I mean, I... It would be less

00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:31.630
about a specific game, I guess, and just, you

00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:35.130
know, theoretically, anyone watching this podcast

00:42:35.130 --> 00:42:38.889
is at least just interested tangentially in Viking

00:42:38.889 --> 00:42:43.190
stuff. Maybe they've just really stumbled afar.

00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:47.849
Yeah. But it's one of the really fascinating

00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:54.570
parts of how Viking stuff ends up in video game

00:42:54.570 --> 00:42:59.119
worlds. gameplay mechanics is how it usually

00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.179
ends up totally decontextualized and in really

00:43:02.179 --> 00:43:05.400
strange places, especially in sci -fi. Because

00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.139
of the close -knit history of fantasy and sci

00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:11.920
-fi, both as literary genres and as mainstays

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:15.119
of role -playing games, the two main types, you

00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.199
either have a sci -fi role -playing game or a

00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.320
fantasy role -playing game or one that blends

00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.519
both elements. So you often find space vikings,

00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:27.800
like the type that you were talking about, which

00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.360
kind of runs the sort of space viking campaign.

00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.179
But it's usually just one -off references to

00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:38.099
things like a rocket launcher in Destiny and

00:43:38.099 --> 00:43:40.719
Destiny 2 that's called Gatlet Horn, the horn

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:45.019
of Heimdall. And I find it quite funny that it's

00:43:45.019 --> 00:43:47.699
a rocket launcher. Why did they choose this?

00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:50.639
The horn is loud and a rocket launcher is probably

00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:54.619
pretty loud. So maybe that's the extent of it.

00:43:56.059 --> 00:43:59.199
Or like in a game I used to play a ton of called

00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.039
Warframe, which is probably the least Viking

00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:05.199
game that you could get. It's robotic space ninjas

00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:09.199
basically running these very fast paced, shoot

00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:13.380
them up, kind of hack and slash combination with

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:17.179
magic in the form of technology type stuff. But

00:44:17.179 --> 00:44:20.059
you have one of the first Warframes, these kind

00:44:20.059 --> 00:44:22.590
of robot ninjas. that you can control is called

00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:26.809
Loki and especially he looks nothing like he

00:44:26.809 --> 00:44:29.309
sort of has a pointy head but that's it uh maybe

00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:33.409
those are horns i don't know um but his especially

00:44:33.409 --> 00:44:37.349
his skill uh skill set is based in you know trickery

00:44:37.349 --> 00:44:40.170
and deception and stealth so it's more thematic

00:44:40.170 --> 00:44:42.730
than it is you know just Loki from Norse mythology

00:44:42.730 --> 00:44:45.929
but it's like oh like we have like a trickster

00:44:45.929 --> 00:44:49.530
figure out Loki of course so now there's Loki

00:44:49.530 --> 00:44:52.869
in space beating up post humans and things like

00:44:52.869 --> 00:44:56.329
that. That also just triggered a thought for

00:44:56.329 --> 00:44:59.190
me in terms of, so Final Fantasy 7 is not my

00:44:59.190 --> 00:45:01.289
Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy X is where I'm at,

00:45:01.369 --> 00:45:04.849
but Final Fantasy 7 has a lot of Norse realm

00:45:04.849 --> 00:45:08.050
names in it. It has a ton of Norse stuck in general.

00:45:08.889 --> 00:45:12.349
I haven't played 7 properly, but I was in a room

00:45:12.349 --> 00:45:14.969
while someone was playing it and just the ears

00:45:14.969 --> 00:45:17.250
poking up being like, hold on, why is this Final

00:45:17.250 --> 00:45:20.000
Fantasy game referencing North realms all the

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.300
time, so it is interesting where it crosses over.

00:45:24.139 --> 00:45:26.579
Yeah actually, yeah that one's the kind of the

00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:28.260
heaviest with the references because like you

00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:32.519
said it's set in the city of Midgar, no D you

00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:35.420
read, just Midgar, the main characters from a

00:45:35.420 --> 00:45:38.519
town in the in the kind of north foggy place

00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:43.599
called Nibelheim with two Bs, but things like

00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:48.010
especially Odin as like a summon. This sort of

00:45:48.010 --> 00:45:49.630
special ability that you can use every now and

00:45:49.630 --> 00:45:52.630
then has been I think since Final Fantasy 3 or

00:45:52.630 --> 00:45:56.630
4 And he reoccurs very frequently and Ragnarok

00:45:56.630 --> 00:45:58.590
is usually a sword that you can get in the game

00:45:58.590 --> 00:46:04.250
like that very high level special sword or Yeah,

00:46:04.369 --> 00:46:10.829
right, yeah, that's a sword But yeah seven is

00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:12.829
kind of the heaviest on these references yeah,

00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:15.670
I'm actually currently co -writing an article

00:46:15.670 --> 00:46:20.320
on a JRPG that's the Norse influence, then we're

00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:24.440
sort of... Me and my co -writer are trying to

00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:28.139
puzzle out what's up with Japanese receiving

00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:31.179
kind of Western fantasy, Western medieval fantasy

00:46:31.179 --> 00:46:33.199
in general, but the Viking stuff in particular

00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:35.400
because it's so popular right now and they're

00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.099
starting to make more kind of Viking games through

00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:41.880
the Japanese pop culture lens of anime and manga

00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:45.250
and JRPG conventions instead of... Western RPG

00:46:45.250 --> 00:46:48.710
conventions. It's a good point, because I remember

00:46:48.710 --> 00:46:51.409
many months ago sending you a link to a new game

00:46:51.409 --> 00:46:53.469
that was coming out that looked very distinctly

00:46:53.469 --> 00:46:55.289
Norse, and then you pointed out that's actually

00:46:55.289 --> 00:46:58.090
coming from Japan. I'm like, ah, I wouldn't have

00:46:58.090 --> 00:47:00.269
guessed from the way the characters in the world

00:47:00.269 --> 00:47:03.730
was depicted. Yeah. Because it's just, it's so

00:47:03.730 --> 00:47:04.670
valuable and adaptable. Or was it Korean, or

00:47:04.670 --> 00:47:07.550
was it Japanese? I can't remember the name off

00:47:07.550 --> 00:47:09.070
the top of my head, because, you know, my memory

00:47:09.070 --> 00:47:15.579
is rubbish. But yeah, it was interesting because

00:47:15.579 --> 00:47:17.980
then you pointed out that they'd used a particular

00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:22.360
symbol at one point and you were like, a bit

00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.820
questionable. Yeah, they had a curved swastika

00:47:25.820 --> 00:47:27.780
on a shield at the very last minute. I was like,

00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:30.780
ah, they have to sneak it in there. There can't

00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:34.380
not be some sketchy symbol in these games, I

00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:39.460
swear. But I think you can customize it a little

00:47:39.460 --> 00:47:45.070
bit. Yeah. I mean I do wonder kind of like those

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:47.670
who are very familiar with runes both kind of

00:47:47.670 --> 00:47:50.730
like as a written language and of course their

00:47:50.730 --> 00:47:53.449
many meanings that people kind of associate with

00:47:53.449 --> 00:47:55.769
them kind of like how people they find it when

00:47:55.769 --> 00:47:57.809
they see runes used in games because that's another

00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:00.809
common trope that's come along from Norse mythology

00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:02.750
and Viking culture that's used in games it's

00:48:02.750 --> 00:48:05.250
often got a magical connotation it's never used

00:48:05.250 --> 00:48:09.219
everywhere yeah common sense of carving a message

00:48:09.219 --> 00:48:11.079
into a stone because that's what they often are

00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:16.900
found for on items and things. Certainly it's

00:48:16.900 --> 00:48:20.280
mainly think actually because before today I

00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.920
sent you both a link that Beth Cedar had put

00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:24.820
on their Instagram account because they've done

00:48:24.820 --> 00:48:28.000
something rather uniquely crazy for their next

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.219
Doom game which is... called doom dark age might

00:48:32.219 --> 00:48:34.139
as well place the word dark with many evil but

00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:36.260
it was also there was an era known as the dark

00:48:36.260 --> 00:48:38.099
ages i think that's what they're leaning into

00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:41.019
and they made their own mock version of the bio

00:48:41.019 --> 00:48:44.199
tapestry but about doom and the doom slayer and

00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.239
i'm like okay fair enough and they've put it

00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:50.719
up in the armory and leaves of all places so

00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.820
it doesn't i must admit he uses a shield of sorts

00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:56.420
it rotates and has daggers and slices up things

00:48:56.420 --> 00:48:59.599
very nicely but that's about the main only artifacts

00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:01.940
i can see that looks anything kind of like medieval

00:49:01.940 --> 00:49:05.579
or viking age ish but i wouldn't be surprised

00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:08.239
if there are norse references in there too whether

00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:10.639
it is as you say applied to weapons or items

00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:13.480
or armor upgrades and that kind of thing because

00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:16.159
of course it's set in hell i don't think that

00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.039
hell is definitely not the norse hell it's very

00:49:18.039 --> 00:49:20.579
much demons and zombies and undead and all sorts

00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:24.469
of things It's one of those types of games I

00:49:24.469 --> 00:49:25.829
couldn't play because it's just too violent.

00:49:25.969 --> 00:49:28.150
Because again, I'd get mobbed, I can't stop.

00:49:28.630 --> 00:49:31.210
I couldn't sludge. I could watch my husband play

00:49:31.210 --> 00:49:38.429
it, but I couldn't play it. Yeah, I mean, even

00:49:38.429 --> 00:49:41.570
the previous two rebooted Doom games, Doom from

00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:44.369
2016, I think, and Doom Eternal, its sequel.

00:49:45.550 --> 00:49:49.050
I think Dark Ages 1 is a prequel, which is why

00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:52.469
they're going back to the middle ages. But even

00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:56.699
especially Doom Eternal had a lot of dark, medieval

00:49:56.699 --> 00:49:59.420
fantasy aesthetics, because you're not always

00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:04.460
just in Hell. You're either in space, on these

00:50:04.460 --> 00:50:11.000
alien slash heavenly divine planets, you're in

00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:14.860
Hell or you're in the home planet of the people

00:50:14.860 --> 00:50:17.119
who sort of created and trained the Slayer or

00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:21.940
these combination like sci -fi order of knights.

00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.320
kind of Spartan society that live in space and

00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:27.820
they have extremely advanced technology, but

00:50:27.820 --> 00:50:32.139
they choose to live in big generic medieval castles

00:50:32.139 --> 00:50:34.840
and they use technology, but they choose to use

00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:37.800
iron gates and things like that. So there's already

00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:42.119
sort of a heavy blending of dark fantasy medievalism

00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:46.699
with sci -fi elements in the game. So they're

00:50:46.699 --> 00:50:49.880
just leaning all the way into that and making

00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:52.940
a knockoff Bayou tapestry thing, which is just

00:50:52.940 --> 00:50:57.860
really amusing to me. It is. I will try and find

00:50:57.860 --> 00:50:59.840
the link and put it in the blurb below for any

00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:01.599
viewers and listeners that don't believe me,

00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.800
but it is real. I don't know if it's still there.

00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:05.840
I only came across it. It literally popped up

00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:07.820
through the windows of the Instagram algorithm.

00:51:08.420 --> 00:51:10.420
It somehow must have connected that I like games.

00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:16.900
You were blessed. There you go. But yes, it'll

00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:19.550
be something interesting to see. how well Norse

00:51:19.550 --> 00:51:21.230
does when that comes out later this year and

00:51:21.230 --> 00:51:24.269
of course I don't think I'm aware of any of the

00:51:24.269 --> 00:51:27.329
computer games certainly touching on the historical

00:51:27.329 --> 00:51:31.050
aspect of Vikings. There's a lot more coming

00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:33.710
out that again dealing with the fantastical and

00:51:33.710 --> 00:51:37.230
mythological aspect. I guess that relates to

00:51:37.230 --> 00:51:39.989
what you said in a previous podcast on Nordic

00:51:39.989 --> 00:51:43.190
mythology, Luca, about how much fantasy and fantasy

00:51:43.190 --> 00:51:47.800
literature has that's kept Vikings and Norse

00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:49.980
mythology particularly malleable in the context

00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:53.420
of games and interactive storytelling in a way.

00:51:54.260 --> 00:51:57.679
Yeah yeah it's like I was saying with the sci

00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:00.260
-fi stuff it's it's everywhere in these kind

00:52:00.260 --> 00:52:02.300
of either discrete elements I mean you can already

00:52:02.300 --> 00:52:04.920
say that there's uh in Doom the Dark Ages just

00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:08.500
quickly there's a dragon the western fantasy

00:52:08.500 --> 00:52:13.960
dragon is inherently kind of a rooted in in Norse

00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:15.920
Old Norse and Old English culture the greedy

00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:18.510
kind of gold hoarding dragon is this northern

00:52:18.510 --> 00:52:22.610
european dragon so that's technically technically

00:52:22.610 --> 00:52:24.809
a little a little norse reference but it's it's

00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:27.710
been you know refracted and reflected and re

00:52:27.710 --> 00:52:29.670
-represented and channeled through so many layers

00:52:29.670 --> 00:52:32.590
of of history and intermeeting text that it's

00:52:32.590 --> 00:52:35.710
lost all of its kind of flavor in the sense but

00:52:35.710 --> 00:52:38.650
now it's just kind of part of the part of the

00:52:38.650 --> 00:52:42.369
stock imagery of especially of dark fantasy with

00:52:42.369 --> 00:52:47.739
heavy metal soundtracks touched upon this earlier

00:52:47.739 --> 00:52:50.400
in the sense of the Viking Age in particular

00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:54.119
of all of medieval Europe quotation marks is

00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.440
probably the most ripe for playing with these

00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.699
fancy tropes because we don't have written evidence

00:53:00.699 --> 00:53:03.360
apart from a few runic sources from the Viking

00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:05.820
Age proper like Viking Age Scandinavia you know

00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:08.079
we haven't got writings from everything around

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:12.460
it or beyond it so it really is a blanker canvas

00:53:12.460 --> 00:53:14.380
to play with in a lot of medieval Europe, so

00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:17.119
you can fill in those gaps with the fantasy elements.

00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:20.639
And a lot of the tabletop designers will say

00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:22.539
as much, they'll say, you know, we stuck to history

00:53:22.539 --> 00:53:24.219
where we could, but where there are gaps, we're

00:53:24.219 --> 00:53:26.380
going with the sagas because it's more fun. So

00:53:26.380 --> 00:53:28.360
that's what a lot of people are playing with

00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:33.360
there. Definitely. It's certainly something I

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:36.519
noticed with, of course, going back to... old

00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:39.019
one of Assassin's Creed Valhalla because I really

00:53:39.019 --> 00:53:41.219
enjoy playing their discovery tour which they

00:53:41.219 --> 00:53:43.780
had like free expansion again they can call it

00:53:43.780 --> 00:53:46.000
roguelite or not because it's got no combat at

00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:48.139
all it's basically just like free wandering role

00:53:48.139 --> 00:53:50.579
play and you encounter all the different things

00:53:50.579 --> 00:53:53.539
that they were using for not just the concept

00:53:53.539 --> 00:53:55.679
app but what they then just placed in the game

00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:57.639
and showing like oh we looked at this artifact

00:53:57.639 --> 00:53:59.539
and this museum and this wonderful country over

00:53:59.539 --> 00:54:02.000
here and then we put it here and ta -da! and

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.380
i really kind of like that because of course

00:54:03.380 --> 00:54:05.739
it's got that educational angle of kind of like

00:54:05.739 --> 00:54:08.679
enabling people to see these artifacts that really

00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:10.599
existed and that's what they're basing it on

00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:12.280
without having to travel around the world and

00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.900
see things um i can know it's got an amber bead

00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:19.519
that um i think dr cat jam and bound i think

00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:22.059
it was amber bead i could be wrong it is you're

00:54:22.059 --> 00:54:23.719
nodding emma so i'm going to assume i'm right

00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:29.690
um and i know in terms of runes and Old Norse

00:54:29.690 --> 00:54:33.250
language. They had an acquaintance of mine called

00:54:33.250 --> 00:54:35.469
Marge of Ackville. I can never get her surname

00:54:35.469 --> 00:54:37.710
right but I kind of always do when I see her

00:54:37.710 --> 00:54:41.210
name on there kind of thing. Because I know they've

00:54:41.210 --> 00:54:43.250
gone to reputable people about reputable things

00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:46.929
because of course you as historians and those

00:54:46.929 --> 00:54:49.170
who study the literature and know about what

00:54:49.170 --> 00:54:51.170
really happened to a degree because of course

00:54:51.170 --> 00:54:53.369
we never really know what truly happened and

00:54:53.369 --> 00:54:56.730
what these people truly thought can kind of undeniably

00:54:57.050 --> 00:54:59.409
get a bit I guess a bit wrinkled about seeing

00:54:59.409 --> 00:55:01.949
certain interpretations taken too far or using

00:55:01.949 --> 00:55:05.190
the words of your language or items in the wrong

00:55:05.190 --> 00:55:08.429
way kind of thing. It's I mean I personally just

00:55:08.429 --> 00:55:10.150
have a pee with Assassin's Creed having to mine

00:55:10.150 --> 00:55:13.750
with your actual weapon but that's not it's just

00:55:13.750 --> 00:55:16.510
that it just takes up the realism of that particular

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:18.710
aspect entirely even though you do have a blacksmith

00:55:18.710 --> 00:55:20.710
in your village so why can't you just hire someone

00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:24.809
to mine but anyway that's something else. Ubisoft

00:55:24.809 --> 00:55:27.349
Studios to sort out some of that kind of thing.

00:55:29.809 --> 00:55:32.989
So I guess both as players and as creators we

00:55:32.989 --> 00:55:35.349
almost have to have that imaginary fourth wall,

00:55:35.349 --> 00:55:38.070
have to suspend our disbelief and allow the slightly

00:55:38.070 --> 00:55:42.110
impossible to happen because if we don't then

00:55:42.110 --> 00:55:45.630
are we limiting or not confide, well limiting

00:55:45.630 --> 00:55:48.760
ourselves and kind of like what we can do. because

00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:50.239
I guess it's almost like deciding what rules

00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:52.539
to have in a game. You have so many rules to

00:55:52.539 --> 00:55:53.900
have, so much to happen, but then if you don't

00:55:53.900 --> 00:55:56.420
have this rule, then that won't happen, I suppose,

00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:00.440
in my very rambling way of saying something sensible.

00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:07.239
Yeah, I think it is tricky for game designers,

00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:10.420
for players, for scholars of any kind, whether

00:56:10.420 --> 00:56:12.780
that be professional or not, in terms of how

00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:15.400
do you balance all the different concerns of

00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:19.460
a game while still trying to I guess not misconstrue

00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:22.320
something in a way that's unhelpful or problematic.

00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:28.159
So what I kind of I guess encourage is just going

00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:30.739
for that historical resonance rather than necessarily

00:56:30.739 --> 00:56:35.219
outright accuracy. Like does this feel true if

00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:38.340
not necessarily real in the sense of like are

00:56:38.340 --> 00:56:40.800
the elements there and just approaching things

00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:44.300
from a historically expansive mindset rather

00:56:44.300 --> 00:56:47.610
than historically limiting. So obviously Viking

00:56:47.610 --> 00:56:50.750
gender is a really hot topic and we can prescribe

00:56:50.750 --> 00:56:52.630
a lot of rules on that we can say like you can't

00:56:52.630 --> 00:56:54.250
play a woman in games and things like that but

00:56:54.250 --> 00:56:57.909
actually let's kind of explore what you can do

00:56:57.909 --> 00:57:03.710
as those other people in those spaces. It's very

00:57:03.710 --> 00:57:05.530
true certainly it makes me think back to the

00:57:05.530 --> 00:57:09.349
way Disney have kind of put that little blurb

00:57:09.349 --> 00:57:10.829
in front of some of their films now especially

00:57:10.829 --> 00:57:13.449
kind of like with Peter Pan saying this film

00:57:13.449 --> 00:57:16.539
depicts certain views of a certain type of person

00:57:16.539 --> 00:57:18.559
and we just you know we're in the 21st century

00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:20.239
now we don't hold those views anymore but this

00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.880
was made back then and so please just forgive

00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:25.800
them and move on because we can't go back and

00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:27.780
challenge and correct them. It's so I sometimes

00:57:27.780 --> 00:57:30.280
get a bit puzzled as to why some people want

00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:32.119
some of their old Dahl books to be rewritten

00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:34.780
because some language he uses might be found

00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:36.940
as insulting now but I'm thinking well they weren't

00:57:36.940 --> 00:57:38.920
good for generations if they haven't been found

00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:41.820
insulting then is it is it us that's changed

00:57:41.820 --> 00:57:44.360
compared to the medium or is it the medium that's

00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:47.869
now a perspective change I suppose but then that's

00:57:47.869 --> 00:57:50.429
back on us but I guess it's interesting to see

00:57:50.429 --> 00:57:54.269
in terms of how gameplay works and representation

00:57:54.269 --> 00:57:56.389
of not just like as I mentioned about women either

00:57:56.389 --> 00:58:00.789
either she were maidens of all this. Quite often

00:58:00.789 --> 00:58:02.050
everyone wants to be the fighter, they want to

00:58:02.050 --> 00:58:03.030
be the strong fighter, they want to be the one

00:58:03.030 --> 00:58:04.929
going around wielding a shield and axe and riding

00:58:04.929 --> 00:58:07.090
a longship, or not riding a longship, well you

00:58:07.090 --> 00:58:10.329
could do I suppose, sailing a longship and that

00:58:10.329 --> 00:58:11.469
kind of thing. You don't want to miss out on

00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:14.610
the big actions and the imagery that we have

00:58:14.610 --> 00:58:21.050
associated with Vikings. So I think we're going

00:58:21.050 --> 00:58:22.250
to have to wrap it up because I know I've been

00:58:22.250 --> 00:58:25.659
talking to you both for a very long time. because

00:58:25.659 --> 00:58:27.579
it's very late at the time this recording debut

00:58:27.579 --> 00:58:29.400
is in business and I know these guys at least

00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:31.219
certainly I do I don't want some sleep at some

00:58:31.219 --> 00:58:34.400
point but I hope you've both enjoyed this really

00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:35.980
insightful conversation I think we've touched

00:58:35.980 --> 00:58:38.519
on all sorts so much and the conversations had

00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:40.440
a lovely natural meander and flow on all these

00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:42.579
topics so I thank you very much for your time

00:58:42.579 --> 00:58:48.929
guys thank you thank you yeah thanks If anyone

00:58:48.929 --> 00:58:50.829
viewing or listening wants to check out what

00:58:50.829 --> 00:58:52.849
you're studying or researching, is there anywhere

00:58:52.849 --> 00:58:55.349
they can go? Have you got any articles, works

00:58:55.349 --> 00:58:57.809
that you can point them to, or just direct you

00:58:57.809 --> 00:59:03.010
to follow them on socials, et cetera? Emma? Yep.

00:59:03.730 --> 00:59:05.630
I'm trying to remember what my handles are on

00:59:05.630 --> 00:59:08.929
various places. So I'm still on... uh twitter

00:59:08.929 --> 00:59:16.070
slash x at emlthom but i'm otherwise rkm on blue

00:59:16.070 --> 00:59:21.210
sky and instagram so a r c h a and then emma

00:59:21.210 --> 00:59:24.309
um and then yeah in terms of things coming up

00:59:24.309 --> 00:59:27.929
uh i'm back on nordic mythology podcast next

00:59:27.929 --> 00:59:29.849
month sometime of the month after and there are

00:59:29.849 --> 00:59:32.289
a few of those kicking around as well but uh

00:59:32.289 --> 00:59:36.269
yeah stuff in pipeline will emerge on the platforms

00:59:36.269 --> 00:59:43.110
as and when they do. Very good. Yeah, I am on

00:59:43.110 --> 00:59:48.550
Twitter at Luca A. Panaro. I don't really post

00:59:48.550 --> 00:59:55.349
that much. I should do more. I did send you,

00:59:55.650 --> 00:59:59.750
Becky, the link to my first publication, which

00:59:59.750 --> 01:00:02.889
is on the first Norse god of war. It's a very

01:00:02.889 --> 01:00:09.110
deep dive on how it plays and subverts the prose

01:00:09.110 --> 01:00:12.070
edda, kind of the main Norse mythological text,

01:00:12.090 --> 01:00:15.610
how it turns out on its head. I'm going to do

01:00:15.610 --> 01:00:18.650
expand that a bit in the article that will be

01:00:18.650 --> 01:00:23.349
in our mutual volume from the Stavanger conference.

01:00:25.650 --> 01:00:29.269
Otherwise, yeah, I don't have anything. That's

01:00:29.269 --> 01:00:34.659
all good. a couple of articles eventually. It's

01:00:34.659 --> 01:00:36.900
all good because of course we're all busy in

01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:40.460
our own lives. Emma, what do you teach at university,

01:00:40.659 --> 01:00:44.699
do you not? I have taught a little bit about

01:00:44.699 --> 01:00:47.320
Viking death so I got to tell some third year

01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:50.159
students at midday on a Wednesday what happens

01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:52.780
when you die and got some some lovely looks and

01:00:52.780 --> 01:00:59.909
response. Cool. And do you do any kind of academic

01:00:59.909 --> 01:01:01.969
work on the side as well, Luke, or are you just

01:01:01.969 --> 01:01:05.670
researching mainly? Oh, no, I also teach every

01:01:05.670 --> 01:01:08.030
now and then. Actually, this fall, I'll get to

01:01:08.030 --> 01:01:11.730
teach another course or a rehash of the course

01:01:11.730 --> 01:01:13.409
that I got to teach for the first time two years

01:01:13.409 --> 01:01:16.329
ago, which is explicitly on a popular Viking

01:01:16.329 --> 01:01:20.769
reception. It's taught in thirds with someone

01:01:20.769 --> 01:01:25.329
on my committee who does museum studies approaches

01:01:25.329 --> 01:01:30.280
to Vikings and she's really into also like reenactment,

01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:35.000
metal festivals, HEMA type stuff. So she talks

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:37.519
about all of that. Someone else will be talking

01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:39.900
about Viking movies and TV shows and I'll be

01:01:39.900 --> 01:01:42.940
doing Viking video games in the third, third,

01:01:43.579 --> 01:01:46.079
last third. So I'm really looking forward to

01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:49.460
that in the fall. Sounds really good. I wish

01:01:49.460 --> 01:01:53.889
I could be part of that class. Just because I

01:01:53.889 --> 01:01:55.829
love to learn anything to do with Vikings. And

01:01:55.829 --> 01:01:58.650
of course, one perception is a huge rainbow spectrum

01:01:58.650 --> 01:02:01.670
of content. It's why I do this podcast because

01:02:01.670 --> 01:02:04.309
there's so much out there. But thank you very

01:02:04.309 --> 01:02:06.809
much for your time. We've definitely talked more

01:02:06.809 --> 01:02:08.889
and longer than I thought. I hope you enjoyed

01:02:08.889 --> 01:02:12.550
it. I hope you enjoy your sleep after this. And

01:02:12.550 --> 01:02:13.989
thank you dear viewers and listeners wherever

01:02:13.989 --> 01:02:16.269
you are watching. Please hit subscribe wherever

01:02:16.269 --> 01:02:17.989
you are so you don't miss out on the next Valhalla

01:02:17.989 --> 01:02:20.750
Conversations episode. Episode 16 which will

01:02:20.750 --> 01:02:22.469
feature a lovely author friend of mine called

01:02:22.469 --> 01:02:25.010
Genevieve Cornishak. She has written two books,

01:02:25.510 --> 01:02:27.570
The Witch's Heart and a really great one called

01:02:27.570 --> 01:02:29.650
The Weaver and the Witch Queen about Gunnhild

01:02:29.650 --> 01:02:33.260
and Erik Bloodhacks. and she herself is undertaking

01:02:33.260 --> 01:02:36.079
a journey into academic research herself very

01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:38.780
soon, I believe it's with Iceland as well. So

01:02:38.780 --> 01:02:40.880
I'll be quizzing her and asking her on how I

01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:43.460
can get on board and escape my part -time job

01:02:43.460 --> 01:02:46.719
and being a parent. If only someone could pay

01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:48.880
me to do it. Anyway, thank you very much for

01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:51.239
listening and we shall hopefully see and speak

01:02:51.239 --> 01:02:53.500
to you all again soon. Thank you very much everyone.

01:03:10.329 --> 01:03:13.510
Thank you very much for listening to this episode.

01:03:14.130 --> 01:03:16.650
I hope you enjoyed the discussions between my

01:03:16.650 --> 01:03:19.969
special guests and myself. Please do check out

01:03:19.969 --> 01:03:22.469
the episode blurb for links to their works and

01:03:22.469 --> 01:03:25.510
websites. If you liked this episode, let me know

01:03:25.510 --> 01:03:28.269
by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if you

01:03:28.269 --> 01:03:30.500
learned something new in the comments. and of

01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:33.480
course click subscribe to Valhalla Conversations

01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:36.800
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01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:39.320
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01:03:39.320 --> 01:03:42.960
Music and it can also be listened to on Spotify,

01:03:43.460 --> 01:03:47.699
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01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:50.579
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01:03:50.579 --> 01:03:52.139
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