Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla
and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome
everyone to the Valhalla podcast. This is episode
15, titles Norse games and Vikings in games,
because there's a bit of both one and the other.
You can have games from the Viking Age, but you
can also have Vikings in game. So here we are.
And I'm delighted to explore this overlap of
spheres, both in terms of tabletop games, card
games, role -play games, and then, of course,
the development of computer games. Two very experienced
guests that I happen to know and meet in Stavanger
at my academic debut all the way back in August
last year. It seems a lifetime ago. And I'm delighted
to welcome Emma and Luca to the podcast. Welcome,
guys. Thank you very much. Thank you. Happy to
be here. I'm glad you were willing and happy
to come along. Emma, would you like to introduce
yourself and what your expertise is? Yeah, so
I'm Emma Louise Thompson. I am doing a PhD in
Viking Age mortuary identities at the University
of Leicester. basically looking at what changes
migration and religious change have on burial
practices, both in Denmark and England. I'm affiliated
with the European Research Council Body Politics
Project, which looks at sort of weird ways we
think about bodies of people in the Viking Age.
And then more, more relevantly to this, I've
been playing D &D for 17 years or so now. very
much tabletop role playing sort of gamer and
video gamer and yeah have been thinking about
how we reinterpret, we reimagine the Viking Age
in tabletop. Wonderful and that is primarily
why I brought you along but I'm sure your archaeology
studies are equally interesting because it does
sound interesting and I'm certainly... I think
there are more names in Graves so we can touch
on that a bit later as well. That is a really
interesting point actually. Very well, my point,
we will try and remember that one. Luca, would
you like to introduce yourself and what your
expertise is in? Yes, of course. My name is Luca
Ponaro. I'm also a PhD student, but at the University
of Iceland, where I'm studying the modern reception
of Old Norse literature and kind of the Viking
Age and Old Norse myth in general, but especially
in video games. So that's actually my specialization.
I'm supposedly working on this database that
I mentioned at the Stavanger conference, but
yeah. And yeah, I've been playing video games
my whole life. And after studying history in
my undergrad and minoring or focusing in medieval
studies, I became very interested early on in
the modern reception of the middle ages in popular
culture. luckily cool professors who let me write
term papers on these topics. So that's led me
to where I am now. It is really cool and it's
always great when someone can connect their academic
interest with their passions. I certainly would
love to study anything Norse related. I just
don't have the time, the money or the facilities
being in the west of England where I am. But
anyway, that's another area entirely. Vikings
and games. As you mentioned, Emma, games have
indeed been around for a long time because they've
been found in graves. I certainly think I may
have read the odd article going many years ago
about the odd grave good being a set of nappa
tattle pieces. and I'm probably saying that wrong,
if it wasn't necessary please go with me. But
I know it's also shortened to just taffle. That's
the easier part of the word, the naffa taffle.
It's not hard, it is hard, sorry. I can't say
English, I can't speak English literally either.
For an English graduate it's quite appalling
really. I myself have a taffle set, I played
it with my husband and it's a very interesting
strategic battle game in that it's a game of
two players there's black pieces around the edge
and then there's white pieces in the middle and
they have a king and the white side have to get
the king to the corners to have the king's gate
but the white side have fewer pieces than the
black side but they can all move about a bit
like pawns in chess they can go across or up
and down and backwards. Curiosity of either of
you two played tattle before? I have not. I also
haven't, and I've always felt bad, it's been
one of those things that I've been clear on,
like, here's a suggested list of what you can
get me for Christmas and no one ever buys it
for me, so I've just used that as my excuse.
Right, I am sending you a tappel set for Christmas,
I will pick the one that I got from the other
bike. But what I do find interesting though,
is some of the board game cafes in Leicester,
for example, they do have it on the shelves,
like it is the worst thing ever. that people
are interested and some people are stocking.
So it's kind of speaking to, you know, people
liking Viking stuff, whether it be authentically
a Viking board game or Viking inspired. That's
really, that's really good. I like that. I like
that. And certainly it almost brings it full
circle because touching on computer games for
a moment, of course, if people don't know about
Chassis Creed. look it up. It's a huge franchise.
They've basically touched on every era of history
and thus the mythology nearly. I don't think
they've done the Aztecs yet but I'm sure they'll
get there eventually. One of the earlier games,
not the Japanese one that is currently out, but
the one before that was set in the Viking age
and was applicable Valhalla because if you can't
have Viking you have the word Valhalla usually.
It all has the same connection. And I remember
running around as Evo, the female version, because
you can't pick one gender or the other in the
game, and coming across non -playable characters,
just programable townsfolk, playing the game.
Sometimes in little rooms, like a whole little
setup of different players. I thought, how cool
would that be, actually, going back to the Viking
Age and finding they actually have their own
little tackle clubs. Yeah. Am I right in thinking
that, like, it's been a while since I've played
Assassin's Creed Valhalla, so I might be misremembering,
but the board game in that isn't the same as
the taffle that I'm thinking of, which is the
sort of very chess -looking thing. There's sort
of the, what is it, the little rune stones? You're
right. Yes, it's called, and I'm going to have
to Google it on my phone because I can't remember
the name of it. Yes, we do have a game that you
can play with the townspeople and it involves...
Sorry, what did you say, Luca? No, yeah, the
minigame that you can actually play, because
like you said, you can see people playing, you
know, a representation of Tafel, but these are
minigames that you have access to. And I never
played it because I always hated minigames inside
of my RPGs. I'm like, no, I'm here to like, you
know, learn magic and explore dungeons. I don't
want to stop and play chess. But I know it's,
you know, it's a big part of these things as
well. game is. It's telling me about Assassin's
Creed Valhalla. I want to know what the game
is. That's it. Found it. Orlog. Which is an unusual
word. I can never understand. It's a mini game.
It's played with six dice. It involves dice rolls
and god favors to damage your opponents because
you use these little stones as like health points
almost when you got to kind of like knock them
off. And there's also drinking games and other.
types of minigames in this, but Orlog is one.
And I have seen people either making it for custom
purchase, like on handcraft sites, or doing videos
where they play it themselves and see if they
can beat all the champions of Orlog that you
meet in the towns. So it's a very good point.
There's actually an article, I think, on that
game Orlog by another PhD student who's studying
at Helsinki, I think. I have no idea if I'm pronouncing
her name correctly, but I'm sorry. No worries,
no worries. I couldn't correct you, so I don't
know. But there are also, there's another article
that addresses the, because in the same way that
you can play, you know, digital solitaire and
digital chess, you can play like digital, so,
and I think there's several different versions
that have tried to digitize it. That's true.
There's many different ways. You don't need the
board, Emma. You can just go on Steam. It's true.
Yeah, I clearly just want Becky to sit divinely
taffled. That was just what I was aiming for.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm ruining your gift idea.
But it is the same point that you kind of raised,
Becky, in terms of... people who recreate mini
games from video games. I'm thinking specifically
of like Gwent from The Witcher, which has become
a massive thing and people are on Etsy producing
like really beautiful Gwent cards. And it's a
case of, it's interesting to think of a video
game recreating a historical board game that
then gets recreated by someone who's played the
video game and the different dimensions of interpretation.
It is, I think that's the wonderful thing about
modern creativity and especially with history
and the mythological side of course but where
there's gaps where we don't have any definitive
things that way it gives us that wiggle room
to say okay well it could be this or it could
be that because we've got no one to say ah it's
wrong because no one knows for sure. I mean certainly
thinking outside the Viking Age slightly of course
is the Lewis Chess Benz set which is down in
the British Museum still I think. Although I
think a few pieces have gone here, there and
other museums. I think one is in Orkney. I think
it's Orkney that was founded. Was it Shetland?
One of the two. One of the two. It's in one of
the aisles along the top of the UK. But even
that kind of just shows the love of chess. I
mean, we call it chessmen. I assume they do actually
match up with a proper full game of chess. But
they're all beautifully hand -carved. And we're
hidden away, and obviously some of us have loved
and wanted to keep them safe from whatever was
happening at the time. And then, of course, people
do get buried with games. Of course, we don't
really bury anyone with things these days, but
gosh, imagine what a... dungeon master these
days who takes like how many manuals, how many
packs of maps, all the tokens. I always talk
about how like when I die as an archaeologist
I just want to be buried in the weirdest way
possible to confuse future archaeologists and
I think just being buried with all my dice might
do a lot for that. But that's a good point about
dice because that made me think of a guy called
Adam Blue Axe go looking up on Instagram. Oh,
you've got I've just literally put all my D &D
bags upstairs. I mean, that's where all I forgot
to bring all my many Viking inspired D &D source
books down, but my husband's not having an app.
So I have got many, dear viewers, I have got
many. And the sticking on the issue of dice,
Adam Blue Axe is a brilliant Artifact Recreationist
Smith, he learned all the ways of making them
and he also kind of like he showed up these tiny
little polyhedral weights because of course they
use this dice that we used as weights back then
and they keep saying they look like dice because
we call them the D &D weights because they could
be used you just need to take numbers on and
then you and then you can use them because of
course some weights have been found that look
remarkably like dice and speaking of dice on
a slight topic I remember when there was a great
exhibition travelling around the UK to do with
the Torxy River Camp that was found and the hundreds
of dice that they found. How many people were
losing dice in that camp? It was countless because
they lost so many and they were all in different
shapes and sizes and had different ways of marking
the numbers on. It's just yeah I think I think
a Norseman would appreciate those dice goblins
and the D &D community. And we're just slowly
finding the origin of the Dice Goblin. Yeah.
Well, I certainly remember coming across, ironically
enough on threads, which isn't a platform I visit
much. I should do, because I know it's got some
people I like and follow on that. Someone posted
a photo of a Roman Dice Tower. And it had a Latin
inscription around the top, something along the
lines of we've. one victory against the Picts,
now let's drink and play games. And it is exactly
like the fold -out dice towers that you get in
most D &D shops, and of course I kept thinking
Romans playing D &D. What would their imaginations
take them? What stories and adventures would
they have? Would they be playing with the Greek
or the Roman gods, I suppose. Games and play,
it's such a human thing and the sort of having
a game with rules and tactile things, it is dice
or cards in the form of Gwent. It's certainly
an ageless thing, as ageless as storytelling
in a way, I think. Especially with the game of,
not sorry, all log, but certainly Tafel, with
it being a strategic game and almost like...
battle it just shows the kind of mindset that
these people must have had and who was trying
to play these games because they probably weren't
well they were probably to make if you could
just have a piece of wood and just cut some lines
and get some random rocks and but other like
proper nicely made sense obviously for the upper
class those who could afford it those who had
maybe higher goals or esteemed or who knew nobility
or had people's family who were warriors and
had to go out and protect the kingdom and defend
the king and queen and whatnot I certainly would
love to know how many taffle sex there are out
now in graves now. I would love to know a number
because I don't know how many have ever been
found. It's an interesting one. So keeping in
mind that I obviously specialize a lot in Denmark,
there's definitely one in Jutland, which is the
mainland of Denmark, which was found with what
they thought to be an adult woman. But again,
Grave goods and gender in the Viking Age is a
bit of a tricky subject in the sense that we
assume jewelry was women and, you know, swords
equal men, but isn't always the case. But this
particular grave was some jewelry and a gaming
board. And then the other sort of main example
I can think of is the big vehicle burial, which
was believed to be a male warrior, was resexed
as a female. So she had a gaming board set with
her, and it's often believed to reflect kind
of Not necessarily like military kind of power
but sort of that kind of strategic thinking of
this person was important to To kind of the local
community, but it's obviously a hard one to read
into because it is also Play, right? So it doesn't
have to be this military sense just because it's
in a grave and So we can sort of unpick that
in many different ways Yeah in a sort of literary
example as well I always forget the name of the
actual poem, but in Orkney and Gethaga, sort
of the poem that the Earl of Orkney and one of
his courtiers essentially composed in tandem
mentions these kind of valuable skills that they
both know. And one of them is knowing how to
play an epitapel. So it clearly also had sort
of like a Game of Kings kind of connotation like
chess does as well and did for many. many years.
But yeah, the fact that it's in these sort of
particular types of graves, definitely like elite,
but some sort of yeah, like military strategy,
like not just a rich warrior, but like somebody
who knew how to plan. Very interesting. I guess
because they certainly have a game like this,
you must have the time to learn how to play it
and then play it, whereas a lot of the common
folk might have been too busy just surviving,
living, farming, crafting, sailing, raiding and
doing everything else. But the common folk of
the Viking Age time might not do. I can't remember
now if the Yorbit Viking Centre have got even
scratchings of what could have been used as a
tackle board for any of their wooden pieces unless
I'm thinking of something from the British Museum
exhibition that they did. Oh my gosh, at least
10 years ago now, a lifetime ago. I'm sure I
remember something like that. I could be wrong.
My memory isn't the best of things. It's an interesting
point, because I think it's not a case maybe
that the common folk didn't play games, but maybe
the material of the games was different. So if
they're just crashing into the mud, for example,
that's not going to last in the archaeological
record, whereas someone who has money to create
a really nice board, we're more likely to see
that. So it's not so much that They didn't play
it, just maybe they played with different material.
Yeah. Web especially. Yeah. Does that last? Not
at all. I don't suppose I would know of any other
type of Norse or medieval type game that might
have been around or perhaps at the time besides
Tafel. Because I certainly can't think of any.
I mean, in. In the sagas, of course, we have,
I mean, not board games, of course, we have like
sports references, but as far as like board games,
which is obviously the topic, I don't think there's
anything. There's the really obscure reference
in Voluspao to the random, you know, golden gaming
pieces that the gods play with at the beginning.
And then after the sort of rebirth of the world,
after the final, you know, the true final battle.
They find the gaming pieces in the grass again,
and the good times come back. But they're just
golden gaming pieces. It doesn't say which game
or what they're doing with them. Just the idea
of play, like you say. Just the idea, the concept
of having the leisure time and these delightful,
having enough gold to just make game pieces out
of and throw them into grass, apparently. That's
a very, very good point, completely forgotten
about it being mentioned in the whole kind of
pantheon arc of the end and rebirth of the world.
That is a very, very good point. So I guess we'll
just stick with Tattle because we know that's
definitely existed and been around and was played
out with Vikings and it's been around for a while.
I guess Emma, can you remember when the first
time you came across anything Norse or Viking
-y in your B &D experience? So I think it's interesting
because... The Norse gods have been in Dungeons
and Dragons since pretty much Dungeons and Dragons
started. So Dungeons and Dragons released in
1974 and they did a supplementary materials book
in 1976 where they said, hey, you can use the
Norse gods if you want to. So they've kind of
been embedded into D &D from the start and then
actual kind of campaign settings for the Vikings
have been around since. like the late 80s so
it took a little while for them to get their
own thing but yeah they've been in there from
the start in terms of I guess for me it was something
I started thinking more about I guess with loads
of the video games coming out around a similar
time after the Vikings TV series but also you
had the kind of campaign module, Rime of the
Frost Maiden, which is an Icewind Dale setting
for Dungeons and Dragons, which is very much
the frozen tundra of the North. And you can kind
of make that as Viking coded as you want to.
So I ran that campaign and just being a Viking
person was like, well, here is my snowy landscape
to throw all my Viking lore at everyone. So that's
kind of where I started thinking about it. That's
a very good point about how Certainly a lot of
the references I've come across to Titan Dorsness
in both computer games and tabletop games, they
always seem to come from a very cold climate.
Why are the Vikings there? Yeah, they don't just
come from anywhere like around the UK, where
the weather's more temperate and mild, stormy,
perhaps weather. You might actually have summer.
I mean, they probably did have summer more reliable
than we do today. The seasons were much more
tamed and regular back then, without industrialisation
meddling in. You know, very recently, in my own
personal D &D experience, I played a fighter
who I made distinctly north with the name of
Bryn. and then I tried to give her the name Dan's
daughter because I was trying to mix Vanir and
daughter together. But that was me messing with
linguistics. But whenever she gets asked about
where she comes from, she always says I come
from the icy fjords and the snow -capped mountains.
So it's not north as you can possibly guess.
That's where she comes from. It's not just from
Harbour City or even kind of like kind of started
there but grew up somewhere else. That's a really
good point. Certainly some of the expansions,
well not quite the expansions, but like little
add -on supplements that I got, without being
hard back bound usually the PDFs, they often
kind of highlight that coldness, they give them
more fur, they give them cold resistance and
kind of like ice damage and all sorts. There's
a very much connection with cold in Vikings for
some strange reason and I don't know where this
stems from, but it just seems to stick as much
as the horned helmets do. Yeah, I think, I guess,
because in this, this is maybe over generalizing
fantasy, but I think the point is that we tend
to be a bit more kind of categorical in the sense
of in a lot of fantasy novels, it's like, here's
the icy country, and here's the desert country,
and here's the kind of rainforest country, and
it's a case of it. homogenizes cultures quite
quickly and I guess the Vikings are a very easy
allegory for you know frozen north if you want
to look for kind of inspiration. I even just
thinking of like Rime at the Frostmaid and the
Icewind module. Even though it doesn't code itself
as Viking inherently, when it's like, here are
the suggested names for people who live in Isle
of Dale, it's like Astrid, Brynhild, Joffers,
and it gets very Scandinavian very quickly. So
they're kind of leading you down a path, even
if they're not forcing it on you. Yeah, actually
a question about that rhyme of the frost maiden.
Maybe it's just coincidence, but is that based
on like Robert Howard's rhyme of the frost maiden?
I'm pretty sure it's... He has like a Norse Earth
-like true Viking short story. It's called like
Rime of the Frostmaiden or something like that.
I would imagine there are links to that. I would
also imagine it's partially referring to the
Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson as well,
because there's a lot of that kind of mythology
to it, which obviously isn't inherently Viking,
but is very Scandinavian. Yeah, I mean, this
is all touching upon what we were. all kind of
talking about after Caroline's keynote about
the boreal medievalism, about the different ideas
of just the North. So it doesn't have to be Viking
coded, but if you've got some fjords and snowy
mountains, people are kind of going to expect
to see Vikings come sailing around the corner
at some point. But I'm pretty sure one can reasonably
argue that the association does come from like
19th century German philosophy, apparently, especially
concerning, you know, the old annoying holdover
about, you know, hard climates make hard people.
And of course, the idea that, you know, Scandinavia
is quite cold, at least for half the year, even
though it does become green, even though some
people don't believe it. And so that sort of
just became crystallized as like, it's always
cold. And it's made them like extremely grim.
sort of eager to go south and raid and pillage
and take. So this kind of old holdover from 19th
century philosophy and ethnography from back
then. And it's just stuck ever since. That's
a good point. It's quite remarkable how much
kind of like the impression or the mindset has
been fixed on stuff that was created or written
about or well created or written about centuries
ago and it still repeats to this day kind of
thing and especially in terms of Vikings of course
I mentioned Horde Helmets we all know just to
clarify there is a listener's Victorian invention
blame Wagner, but also blame his costume designer,
Emil Doppler, because I know from my research
that it was his choice to put the horns on the
helmets. And even I've heard Dr Anina Amiras,
who is a historian idol of mine, she's kind of
said it was just clearly so they could be seen
from the back of the stage, that's all it was.
And I'm actually going to see the Valkyrie iteration
of it from the British Royal Opera tomorrow.
I wouldn't have seen it by the time this episode
drops, but I am seeing it. right after this recording.
They're showing it at cinemas across the UK so
I don't have to go all the way down to London
to see it. Okay. It's a good five hours long.
Yeah I was going to say that's going to be quite
long. And it's my first ever opera so it's going
to be a whole world of an experience. Very cool.
The costumes are very 20th century, very 20th
century from the preview images I have seen so
it's going to be... interesting thankfully they
are providing subtitles otherwise i wouldn't
have a clue what anyone's saying besides characters
names that'll be it yeah um what i was trying
to say was um in terms of dnd games i guess oh
more important more to catch up on your point
emma about categorization and of course it does
link into how fantasy writers have depicted worlds
and set the tone um I can certainly think that
maybe perhaps historically with kind of Anglo
-Saxon England being around for so long and often
being kind of like the lowlands, the bean pastures,
the marshes, the rivers, the shores, they almost
kind of like have claimed that fantastical terrain
for themselves. It can't ever be nought, it's
going to be medieval slash Anglo -Saxon a -dish.
or renaissance or any other period but Viking
even though we had Viking York for hundreds of
years and they lived there and they spoke Norse
as well as Anglo -Saxon and everything else in
between. It's like they don't often acknowledge
that when these cultures co -exist quite happily
together and have done and that's how the Vikings
survived because they just amalgamated into everything
and everyone basically. Yeah this is pretty much
the entirety of my PhD in the sense of for a
very long time the question in archaeology is
why can't we see Viking burials in England because
we see kind of more stereotypical examples up
in Scotland or we see one or two in England but
not a lot and it's a case of well there are more
interesting questions if we're not seeing stereotypical
Viking burials that says a lot about how the
cultures kind of commingled and also I would
also argue what is a Viking burial is is actually
not as stereotypically convenient as we want
it to be. I obviously do a lot of Danish burials.
There are people on the project who do a lot
of Swedish burials. And they will frequently
say, oh, most people in the Viking Age are cremated.
And I'm just in the corner going, not in Denmark.
So it's very easy to fall into, I guess, stereotypes
without actually having as much evidence for
it as we think we do. And the Viking Age was
a long period and lots happened, lots of invasions,
colonization, settling, raiding, pillaging, and
of course fighting in between everyone else as
the Vikings came along. Because of course I keep
thinking back to of course, oh Ethelred the Unready
and how he triggered a bit of a thing with Swayne
Fortbeard when he said let's kill all the Danes,
we don't want them here, let's eradicate them
and then But that just proved that there were
that many happily settled living and working
in various ranks of society, assumably, that
he obviously decided it was a bit too much for
some reason or another. But as a Dane, Danes
can be quite a lot. So I understand people wanting
to get rid of the Danes. I can say that. But
yeah, of course, speaking. That brings back to
your point kind of like, what is Viking? Of course,
we use, everyone used the word Viking, but it's
not a particular person or country or origin,
because the whole of Scandinavia was different
between kingdoms for ages before Sweden became
Sweden, before Norway became Norway. Denmark
was kind of always Denmark -ish. You just didn't
have the name Denmark -ish, because there's bits
and pieces of island like Jutland, as you say.
So they were as fractured as the English, that's
in Kingdoms were. So of course unification and
then the fact that they are now three countries
and not just one giant one. And I think I now
have come across it in certainly some historical
fiction that I read that kind of like if a Norseman
gets called Danish or Swedish he finds that very
insulting and equally vice versa. They don't
like being labeled the same authenticity or origin
I should say. Sometimes I have come across actual
characters in books playing Tafel but actually
not as much as I think many because they're often
too kind of dramatic and lots of adventures and
sailing and raiding and trying to survive and
whatnot and that kind of thing. But it's an interesting
one I think maybe should be looked more at as
historical fiction writers and certainly and
game writers definitely do, both in tabletop
and of course into computer games which tabletop
heavily influenced and you can probably tell
us more on that, Luca, I believe. Sure, yeah,
I mean just the basics which Emma probably is
already very familiar with. Everything sort of
started with these, you know, tabletop miniature
word games which then became D &D when they mixed
in kind of Tolkien -esque, Howardian and Lovecraftian
kind of science fiction and fantasy fiction,
and reduced the size from armies to the party,
just like the fellowship. And then very soon
after computers became, I mean, even when they
were only the purview of research institutes
and military infrastructure, people were already
playing around on these huge, fridge -sized,
clanging computers. But once computers also became
more widespread, especially on university campuses,
people immediately started using them for gaming
and figured out very fast that the type of numeric
basis of any sort of tabletop games fits very
well when you can have the computer just do all
the calculations instantaneously for you and
leave sort of the more interesting kind of role
-playing aspects up to the player to sort of
just enjoy without worrying about all of this.
annoying mathematics. And so there's a yeah,
there's a direct line into I mean, the ski RPG
or computer RPG is like a kind of main pillar
of the history of video games in general, because
these are some of the earliest games were these
text based adventures. So even before you had
a visual output in the form of a screen, you
had these or rather, you know, There were screens,
of course, but not the type of screens we think
of that were able to display image, but purely
just text. You had these text -based adventure
games like Colossal Cave Adventure, or just called
Adventure for short, which was directly based
on Tolkien's legendarium. Middle -earth saga
stuff, but in the form of this text -based CRPG
that handled all the dice rolls and stats for
you and things like that. They're very closely
aligned and still are. Very much so. I think
any computer game that has a hit point bar just
has D &D to thank for the word hit point. They
say health points sometimes, but we know what
they mean. And of course most viewers and listeners
may be familiar with Baldur's Gate 3, which is
entirely D &D just as a computer game. I haven't.
I think I remember playing the early Baldur's
Gate many, many, many, many moons ago. very vague
memories of it and I think we might have done
Baldur's Gate 2, have yet to touch on Baldur's
Gate 3. I mean I haven't completed Assassin's
Creed Valhalla ladies and gentlemen, so this
is how much of a backlog I have in gaming. Who
has? I remember like completing all of Norway
and being like excellent right and then you get
to be like England and I went oh no the completionist
in me is crying. Oh god. Well, see, if anything,
when I was playing the first bit where she is
in Norway, I kept trying to literally try to
find the edge of the map just because I always
liked taking photos. Photo mode is what got me.
I spend more time either role playing or doing
the photo mode, trying to get lovely action shots,
beautiful scenes, screen backdrops from my computer.
And of course, I'd eventually hit the barrier
of the game and say, no, you're going to go back
into your 21st century character. I'm like, no,
I want to go back to being a Norse woman. Thank
you very much. So yes, so besides Assassin's
Creed Valhalla, of course, which has made a number
of headlines when it came out for various reasons,
another very successful game that has adopted
the Norse mythology certainly, of course, is
the revived God of War games, which began anew
in 2018 because that took the Greek hero or anti
-hero depending on how you view him and decided
to plumb him straight in a world of north mythology
which i think was a very very bold move i don't
know who did it but they picked the name on the
head well because everyone loves it unfortunately
i can't play it because i don't have a ps4 so
my mere glimpse of it was watching by my brother
and it was usually when he was battling the valkyries
or learning after telling me about oh how atreus
is now low -key and i'm like oh okay yeah That
makes sense. If he has a sprig of mistletoe,
I can tell you what he's going to do with it,
if you want me to tell you. Oilers. Well, I was
about to say something. Yes, because I did write
an article on 2018 God of War, the first Norse
one. And I did find out that it kind of came
down to a split decision because it had been
whole five years since the previous God of War
game had come out, mainline God of War, God of
War 3. So they're like, okay, we gotta kickstart
the next console iteration of God of War. What
should we do? We've had, I think, in total, including
the side games, it was like 11, I think, God
of War games. And it's all about Kratos, the
Spartan, semi -divine, anti -hero at times. They're
like, okay, this has been done to death. Like,
we either have to change the character or we
have to totally change the setting. And they
were like, well, we can't get rid of Kratos,
even though he would love nothing more than to
be put to rest at some points in the game. So
they totally redid the setting and chose Norse
mythology, probably because it was very in vogue
at the time. Even when they started developing
the game because it came out in 2018 and it was
about a five -year development cycle in 2013
you have to think obviously the Thor movies were
already coming out Game of Thrones was in full
swing Vikings had also just just started I think
in 2013 so they were these things were already
in the air Skyrim obviously everyone was obsessed
with Skyrim still and still is or at least I
still am I keep hearing things about Skyrim But
again, as a parent, I lack the time and the energy
to play. I have a long list of games, and I think
I'll play them when I retire. That's what I'm
keeping the books up for every time. To add more
games to your list, though, both the God of War
games, the recent ones, are on PC now, so you
have no escape. The thing is, I'm rubbish at
the hacks. splash and dodge. I'm rubbish at dodging.
I can hit things and run or I can shoot from
afar. My ex used to get really annoyed at me
because he used to say, Emma, the parry button
exists. And I'm just like, no, that's not my
place. So I just hit things. So you can play
it and just hit things. It's just not as effective.
Yes. I mean, even as Assassin's Creed Valhalla,
I'm still kind of like just endlessly hitting
things until they stop hitting me and then running
away as soon as my health gets too low. Valid.
It's like how in Pokemon there are obviously
things you can do to like weaken the other sort
of Pokemon which aren't just hitting it It's
like it's more fun to just hit it with the attack.
I Don't want to drop its special defense. No.
No, I want to see the big numbers. Yeah, they
make my brain happy. Yeah So we've talked definitely
about certainly on the big three Skyrim definitely
being one of them because I remember your presentations
to Banger and it was really insightful because
I have no clue about Skyrim, so it was lovely
learning about the Draugr and the undead and
the zombies there. Certainly I think in terms
of games, certainly from the ones that I'm able
to access thanks to my brother's extensive Steam
library, a lot of them seem to be touching more
the mythological side than the historical, which
I think just... works quite well for creative
purposes because then they don't have people
email them saying no you've got the mooring helmet
on helmets and they're doing that wrong. I mean
that's the one bug there I have with Assassin's
Creed Valhalla that you where you mine ore is
by hitting a piece of ore with your weapon. which
defeats the purpose because in reality you would
break the weapon and you wouldn't get any ore
to make a new one. And I think personally it
almost like it skips over the fact that there
must have been a mining industry of some type
around in reality in that time to enable all
these weapons and jewelry and stuff to be made,
otherwise where are people getting the metal
from? Yeah, it did not faithfully represent bog
iron, the importance of bog iron. I think someone
needs to invent a Viking mining game, or just
a historical mining game, and see how far in
history you can take your mine. I was going to
say, I haven't played it, but I think Valheim,
although it's supposed to be kind of like that
more kind of Viking sim kind of game than some
of the others. That was the impression I got
from Valheim. Yeah, I've actually played a lot
of Falheim. It was a perfect storm to come out
in March of 2021, I think, like middle of COVID,
basically. And my friends and I got really into
it. And the interesting thing is to look at it
as a game, a Viking game produced in the Viking
boom period that we're in now, but by a Swedish
game studio. And you can really tell I did like
a term paper, so it's not. Don't steal my idea.
No, that's fine. But looking at actually the
landscape archaeology in the game, because it
has every game from everywhere. Oh, the Vikings
had rune stones. Everybody knows that. But not
everybody knows that the Vikings also lived alongside
Neolithic dolmens, stone boat settings like in
Gotland, and several other kind of historical
grave types that predate the Viking age, but
we're still there in the landscape. So you could
really tell that these, I mean, these are southern
Swedes from Skovta, so they knew what the landscape
looked like. They're like, well, we don't have
to make up a Viking landscape. They put some
fantasy elements in the game, but they live in
the Viking landscape, technically. But yeah,
the interesting thing about that game is there
is like a tech development where you start with
stone and wood and move through different types
of material. And when you find iron, it's in
bogs. But only in crypts full of draugr. Of course.
You have to find your iron. Yeah, you do have
to work for it. It takes a long time. I remember
playing a game that came out that hasn't done
as well. And for life, I don't know what it's
called. but I only came across it because one
of my favorite historical fiction writers Giles
Christian, and we all touch on him again because
he's doing work with a much better game now,
that was a survival -esque game set in kind of
a very North -esque historical world, but it
was one of those deep mind farming type survival
games where you have to get the plants and get
the fibers to make the cloth to make your clothes,
if you don't do it quick enough night falls and
you get too cold and you freeze to death. I learned
that quick, as well as starvation and food and
thirst and running into random bears. But it
was very basic in its animation style. It wasn't
as basic as kind of like Minecraft, but it didn't
have like a smooth CGI look. It was tricky to
survive in. I didn't get very far with it. And
even though I know there was a whole island to
explore, including Graves with Jarger and I just,
I never got the far, I didn't get enough clothing
together to get a full set of armour together.
It was, I kept thinking I'm constantly just dying
eventually. I get a little bit longer but it
was just never good. But he is now working on
a much better game with a simple title, oh well
I say simple title. They've announced the full
title now because the teaser trailer that's officially
out there is called Norse. Oath of Blood and
thankfully he's the lead writer on the whole
narrative and character of it and he's doing
wonders and having kind of like read the blurb
of it it has such strong echoes for his Sigurd
the Lucky historical fiction series starting
with God of Vengeance which I highly recommend
everyone read before they go playing off because
it's got strong echoes of it but that looks more
historically accurate to a degree possibly more
than Assassin's Creed Valhalla it's a turn -based
combat game when there is combat by thinking
there is some kind of, not necessarily role play,
but certainly dialogue options in it. We don't
know much more this than the early development
phase, and they are actually putting a call out
for players to come and test it. Unfortunately
I don't have the time, otherwise I would. Plus
they kind of ask for your CV on other turn -based
games, and I really struggle to think of what
turn -based games I've played recently, if at
all. It's a computer game. But that's North,
and that's hopefully coming out later this year
at some point. They haven't set a date on it
yet, they're just saying 2025 at some point.
But I'm really looking forward to that because
I've seen some of the motion capture they've
done behind the scenes and plus I like that.
I'm kind of biased in all regards. Plus it's
spiking so it's going to get my money at some
point. But some other games that I've played
with, which one should I think of? Oh, the one
that I've been playing recently, and I mentioned
just before we launched fully into this episode,
is called Atone, Heart of the Elder Tree. It's
again doubling with the North Mist. It's very
artistic and linear and blocking style. The music
is stunning. It just whistles me away every time.
But interestingly, they've done something really,
I want to call it odd. with the way they're presenting
the Norse myths, or at least the gods in some
aspects, in that their world is where the gods
were there and then they left because humanity
did something wrong and they keep calling it
the sin. humanity's sin. I'm like sin is such
a Christian word and it feels wrong to put it
with with these gods in it. But I will say this
that in my last tattoo I did come across a vulva
which always makes me happy because it's nice
to see kind of like either shield maidens or
sea wrestlers usually. They're the two common
female types and of course shield maidens are
popping up all over the place or at least having
female characters that can do just as much damage
as the boys and they're not just screaming in
the background running around, or having crying
babies and whatnot. But that's an interesting
game, not just because of the way they're presented
at North Gods, but it's a role play, kind of
like very light role play, in that you do get
options, but you don't really get told if it's
a bad choice or a good choice. You don't get
to see the effects, like of course, like in Dragon
Age, for example, you can say so -and -so just
approves, so -and -so highly approves, kind of
get friendship points or you lose friendship
points. But once you've made that choice, it's
done. That's it. But the combat in it isn't typical
running around with a sword, a shield, or an
axe, or a spear, or even a bow and arrow. It's
based on pressing numbers on your keyboard. I
was going to say keypad then. That was the wrong
word entirely. Set to a beat and a rhythm. Because
it's a music -based combat. And so you have to
spend a lot of attention trying to get the right
rhythm right in order to. fill up this meter
and then something happens although you're usually
still focusing on the meter filling up again
so you don't actually see the action when it
happens because it's all happening there on screen
but it's really well done and I remember following
it when it first came out but when it first went
to Apple Arcade originally and only in the last
year or two has it finally made it onto Steam
and I have a game map so I can play it but I'm
looking forward to seeing where that goes because
there's something to do with magic and the gods
disappearing and how This person needs to work
out why people keep turning blue and going crazy
and then killing each other. That's as far as
I've got, so I can't give any more spoilers besides
that. Oh, there is a talking frog, which I find
really amusing. And the character quite rightly
says, like, why are you talking frog? Why are
you talking to me? What's going on? What is this
madness? I'm quite right. I would say the same
thing if I met a talking frog. But in terms of,
are there any other computer games that you two
would recommend or can think of in terms of Vikings
or representations or experience? I mean, one
sort of small independent one that I've been
playing recently, which is kind of a bit atypical
in the Viking space is something called the Frost
Room. And it's basically a point and click murder
mystery. So you arrive on an island. everyone's
dead, the gods seem to be involved, like curses
seem to be involved, and you just sort of work
out what's happened with some help from the gods
here and there, and things like that. There's
no real dialogue, it's sort of very low key,
but it's been quite an interesting sort of short
story, and I think it's an interesting, I guess,
subversion to all Viking sort of media has to
be violent. So it's just a fun little murder
mystery on the island. Good. I think that is
also on my wish list. I have actually got it.
I just haven't played it yet. Because I thought
that seemed really, really interesting. Yeah,
the art's really beautiful as well. So it's very,
very well done and just small and on the periphery
of the Viking game world. Yeah. Yeah, I was toying
with creating some kind of master list of Viking
games, especially using Steam as a research platform
because it's where most people publish everything.
And I quickly found that searching either term
or Viking comes up with hundreds. Oh, like released
and upcoming and early access titles. But I did
start making the list and the Frost Room was
one of the ones that I logged on there. One that
I keep meaning to play because the good friend
of mine, who also has a degree, has a PhD in
Norse, Old Norse stuff, in our wheelhouse is
the Banner Saga trilogy. Comes highly recommended
from her. And I've read about it, just to kind
of get the gist of what it's about. And it's
sort of like a rewritten, you know, kind of fantasy
blend that's mostly Norse flavored. about, you
know, like an encroaching, you know, corrupting
forest and different clans of sort of, you know,
Norse inspired beings have to, humans and these
sort of yet -not type of beings have to band
together to defend themselves from this sort
of ontological, you know, void enemy. And it's
also like the Frostrun has this beautiful the
hand -painted artwork style. I think I tried
it once and I didn't get very far because there's
a little combat you experience right in the beginning
and I don't think I survived it. I'll just put
this one to the side for a bit, I'll come back
to it later. It's like a tactical RPG I think
so you have to be... turn -based to a degree
I think it was it was a long time ago I think
I think it was back before the daughter was even
born which at least four years ago. I've got
a very good soundtrack too I haven't played it
but it's on all my like North themed takes and
just like Banizag on there. There's another game
on my wish list which is called Dead in Binland.
It's another mystery game, it might be up your
street Edmund if you like fostering, because
that's purely about this tripwrecked family,
on been and survival and strategy in terms of
choices and resources. There is some combat because
as you explore you come across other characters
and they're of course not always friendly. but
there's some magic and mystery involved as well
from what I've seen at the trial and I keep thinking
oh that would be really interesting because of
course not many people think of Vikings then
put the word Finland together just like not many
people think of Vikings but the word Iceland
together but then they kind of the spread of
Vikings and also in reality is quite much further
than just kind of like Scandinavia and England.
most people forget about Scotland and the Picts
and the Hebrides and the Shetlands because Ireland
and the Isle of Man, I keep saying I'd love to
go world tour and join all the dots together
and go to where all the Vikings have been because
it would cover at least half the world and all
the way across to the east. But yes, Dedimvidland
looks like an interesting one and in terms of
you mentioning of course the Jottons in the Banner
saga, giants are such a common Viking character
type that's come across in a lot of any Viking
games. I know another one on my wishlist is simply
called Jotun and it involves a woman who couldn't
get into Valhalla and she has to go around killing
all the giants. And thanks to my brother because
I can see what games he's been playing because
we share the Steam library together. I know he's
just been playing, I think recently in fact,
another game that's come out literally fresh
this year I think called Svartelheim. battle
against hell or hell's army or something like
that and it's just where you go into the dwarven
realm and kill lots of hellish things and get
godly powers and they have some class types they
have berserker they have crs they have some kind
of ranger type i can't remember the name of it
and they have a flame daughter which is where
you kind of like you're half torch, human torch,
but not that kind of thing. Just half microinlarger
and five, let's do half the flesh. So sensing
that, that's the kind of female. fighter type
that they've given compared to the ranger which
is a male and the berserker which is also a male
type um character but that i've seen kind of
like the trailer for that before this episode
was recorded i thought no that's not there's
too many waves of enemies i don't like being
swamped it just takes more than one and then
i can't cope because i can't block and parry
and dodge so i don't think i'd survive that game
but it's interesting it's interesting how kind
of like across North realms have been used a
lot in in games. It does Sparkleheim and Valheim
and the Heim word obviously comes up a lot in
various places. Can I just check my wish list
on my phone? Yeah I was thinking as well just
thinking of I guess sequels that have come out
recently. Hellblade, Senua's sacrifice and that
whole duo is a really interesting one. Given
that it's again one of those sort of Norse flavored
games, and I remember the first one They really
go ham into kind of like the experience of the
game in terms of like the sound design And they
recommend you play with headphones and it got
to a point where it was just so intense I had
to hit the headphones off because I was just
like no, I can't do I can't do this this sort
of Shamanistic ecstatic trance style soundscape
and it's it's really intense. It's really cool
and really well done It's one of those things
that you have to be in the right mindset for
but it's really interesting how they played with
that kind of mythology and sort of ambient space
that we associate with sort of vulva and cirrhosis.
I remember reading lots when that came out because
it got such attention because of its aspect of
mental health and in particular schizophrenia
and how they actually got like a whole panel
of people who have the condition to really make
it realistic and I remember seeing again by my
brother play it for a short while I thought I
could I could probably do the puzzles but the
combat I'm like, I remember seeing him face off
against Some what I think was meant to be representation
of the goddess hell But she was bald and looks
more like a giant undead young woman than anything.
I thought no I can't I can't dodge that quick.
I can't I won't get to the end. I'll just have
to find all the cinematic cinematic bits on YouTube
and watch it. Let's show it that way. And that's
when Hell's Blade 2 came out. That was set in
Iceland. I thought ooh Iceland again an overlooked
source of Norse history and it just reaps well
it oozes mythology in the sense of the kind of
like the volcanoes and they even have like the
folklore of Icelandic fairies and whatnot and
they just yeah I would think if I was brave enough
I could play it but I don't know if I could especially
that you mentioned about the headphones and the
sound and the effect I get scared easily isn't
it Yeah, I got both of those games, the first
one in the sequel on sale recently, so they're
on my very soon -to -be -played list because
I know they're quite important. But it's very
amusing to me that these very serious games that
tackle a very serious subject are by the same
studio that made Devil May Cry, which is a very
serious series of games. So they're like, see,
we can do this. That kind of makes sense. There
are moments of the first Hellblade game where
I'm like, oh, OK, that makes sense that Devil
May Cry is the legacy there. OK, I'll look forward
to trying to find those moments. We hope you
have enjoyed the first part of this episode on
Norse games and Vikings in games with special
guests Luca Pinaro and Emma Thompson. Please
look for part two of this conversation. and we
hope you can rejoin us in Valhalla soon. Thank
you for watching and listening.