WEBVTT 00:00:18.250 --> 00:00:21.530 Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill, 00:00:22.010 --> 00:00:24.710 otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am 00:00:24.710 --> 00:00:27.550 a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the 00:00:27.550 --> 00:00:29.750 history, culture and mythology of the Viking 00:00:29.750 --> 00:00:32.310 Age and I have been on an endless quest for more 00:00:32.310 --> 00:00:36.450 ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:38.609 with those who have been inspired by Viking Age 00:00:38.609 --> 00:00:40.950 history and North mythology in their creative 00:00:40.950 --> 00:00:43.929 works or those who have studied the sagas and 00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:47.039 archaeology and review. how such subjects are 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.200 being presented to modern audiences today. If 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.479 you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla 00:00:53.479 --> 00:01:11.899 and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome 00:01:11.899 --> 00:01:14.840 everyone to the Valhalla podcast. This is episode 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:19.319 15, titles Norse games and Vikings in games, 00:01:19.659 --> 00:01:22.439 because there's a bit of both one and the other. 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:24.340 You can have games from the Viking Age, but you 00:01:24.340 --> 00:01:26.739 can also have Vikings in game. So here we are. 00:01:26.969 --> 00:01:29.849 And I'm delighted to explore this overlap of 00:01:29.849 --> 00:01:33.069 spheres, both in terms of tabletop games, card 00:01:33.069 --> 00:01:35.129 games, role -play games, and then, of course, 00:01:35.250 --> 00:01:37.750 the development of computer games. Two very experienced 00:01:37.750 --> 00:01:40.489 guests that I happen to know and meet in Stavanger 00:01:40.489 --> 00:01:42.790 at my academic debut all the way back in August 00:01:42.790 --> 00:01:45.590 last year. It seems a lifetime ago. And I'm delighted 00:01:45.590 --> 00:01:48.310 to welcome Emma and Luca to the podcast. Welcome, 00:01:48.450 --> 00:01:51.609 guys. Thank you very much. Thank you. Happy to 00:01:51.609 --> 00:01:55.319 be here. I'm glad you were willing and happy 00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.719 to come along. Emma, would you like to introduce 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:05.019 yourself and what your expertise is? Yeah, so 00:02:05.019 --> 00:02:09.180 I'm Emma Louise Thompson. I am doing a PhD in 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:11.819 Viking Age mortuary identities at the University 00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:15.199 of Leicester. basically looking at what changes 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.280 migration and religious change have on burial 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:24.000 practices, both in Denmark and England. I'm affiliated 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.960 with the European Research Council Body Politics 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:29.819 Project, which looks at sort of weird ways we 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:31.960 think about bodies of people in the Viking Age. 00:02:32.419 --> 00:02:35.520 And then more, more relevantly to this, I've 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:42.689 been playing D &D for 17 years or so now. very 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:46.530 much tabletop role playing sort of gamer and 00:02:46.530 --> 00:02:49.550 video gamer and yeah have been thinking about 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:53.490 how we reinterpret, we reimagine the Viking Age 00:02:53.490 --> 00:02:57.889 in tabletop. Wonderful and that is primarily 00:02:57.889 --> 00:03:00.889 why I brought you along but I'm sure your archaeology 00:03:00.889 --> 00:03:02.669 studies are equally interesting because it does 00:03:02.669 --> 00:03:04.830 sound interesting and I'm certainly... I think 00:03:04.830 --> 00:03:07.210 there are more names in Graves so we can touch 00:03:07.210 --> 00:03:10.250 on that a bit later as well. That is a really 00:03:10.250 --> 00:03:13.180 interesting point actually. Very well, my point, 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.599 we will try and remember that one. Luca, would 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:19.099 you like to introduce yourself and what your 00:03:19.099 --> 00:03:22.860 expertise is in? Yes, of course. My name is Luca 00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:27.259 Ponaro. I'm also a PhD student, but at the University 00:03:27.259 --> 00:03:31.199 of Iceland, where I'm studying the modern reception 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.939 of Old Norse literature and kind of the Viking 00:03:34.939 --> 00:03:38.740 Age and Old Norse myth in general, but especially 00:03:38.740 --> 00:03:41.340 in video games. So that's actually my specialization. 00:03:43.939 --> 00:03:46.280 I'm supposedly working on this database that 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:50.240 I mentioned at the Stavanger conference, but 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:56.060 yeah. And yeah, I've been playing video games 00:03:56.060 --> 00:03:59.439 my whole life. And after studying history in 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.539 my undergrad and minoring or focusing in medieval 00:04:02.539 --> 00:04:07.599 studies, I became very interested early on in 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.680 the modern reception of the middle ages in popular 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.430 culture. luckily cool professors who let me write 00:04:14.430 --> 00:04:16.750 term papers on these topics. So that's led me 00:04:16.750 --> 00:04:21.730 to where I am now. It is really cool and it's 00:04:21.730 --> 00:04:24.709 always great when someone can connect their academic 00:04:24.709 --> 00:04:27.949 interest with their passions. I certainly would 00:04:27.949 --> 00:04:30.430 love to study anything Norse related. I just 00:04:30.430 --> 00:04:32.209 don't have the time, the money or the facilities 00:04:32.209 --> 00:04:35.670 being in the west of England where I am. But 00:04:35.670 --> 00:04:41.019 anyway, that's another area entirely. Vikings 00:04:41.019 --> 00:04:43.459 and games. As you mentioned, Emma, games have 00:04:43.459 --> 00:04:45.339 indeed been around for a long time because they've 00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:49.519 been found in graves. I certainly think I may 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:53.220 have read the odd article going many years ago 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:56.240 about the odd grave good being a set of nappa 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:58.629 tattle pieces. and I'm probably saying that wrong, 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:01.009 if it wasn't necessary please go with me. But 00:05:01.009 --> 00:05:05.069 I know it's also shortened to just taffle. That's 00:05:05.069 --> 00:05:07.730 the easier part of the word, the naffa taffle. 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:11.389 It's not hard, it is hard, sorry. I can't say 00:05:11.389 --> 00:05:15.509 English, I can't speak English literally either. 00:05:15.970 --> 00:05:17.529 For an English graduate it's quite appalling 00:05:17.529 --> 00:05:23.769 really. I myself have a taffle set, I played 00:05:23.769 --> 00:05:26.230 it with my husband and it's a very interesting 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.639 strategic battle game in that it's a game of 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:33.300 two players there's black pieces around the edge 00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:35.139 and then there's white pieces in the middle and 00:05:35.139 --> 00:05:37.180 they have a king and the white side have to get 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:39.060 the king to the corners to have the king's gate 00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:41.240 but the white side have fewer pieces than the 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:43.839 black side but they can all move about a bit 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:47.079 like pawns in chess they can go across or up 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:50.199 and down and backwards. Curiosity of either of 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:55.819 you two played tattle before? I have not. I also 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:57.480 haven't, and I've always felt bad, it's been 00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:58.899 one of those things that I've been clear on, 00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:01.120 like, here's a suggested list of what you can 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:02.819 get me for Christmas and no one ever buys it 00:06:02.819 --> 00:06:05.800 for me, so I've just used that as my excuse. 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:08.899 Right, I am sending you a tappel set for Christmas, 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:10.720 I will pick the one that I got from the other 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:16.639 bike. But what I do find interesting though, 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:19.259 is some of the board game cafes in Leicester, 00:06:19.259 --> 00:06:21.360 for example, they do have it on the shelves, 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:24.120 like it is the worst thing ever. that people 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.019 are interested and some people are stocking. 00:06:26.180 --> 00:06:29.720 So it's kind of speaking to, you know, people 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.740 liking Viking stuff, whether it be authentically 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:38.279 a Viking board game or Viking inspired. That's 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.459 really, that's really good. I like that. I like 00:06:40.459 --> 00:06:42.839 that. And certainly it almost brings it full 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.839 circle because touching on computer games for 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:48.579 a moment, of course, if people don't know about 00:06:48.579 --> 00:06:51.660 Chassis Creed. look it up. It's a huge franchise. 00:06:52.220 --> 00:06:54.079 They've basically touched on every era of history 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:56.560 and thus the mythology nearly. I don't think 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:58.240 they've done the Aztecs yet but I'm sure they'll 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:03.480 get there eventually. One of the earlier games, 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:05.579 not the Japanese one that is currently out, but 00:07:05.579 --> 00:07:07.620 the one before that was set in the Viking age 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:09.879 and was applicable Valhalla because if you can't 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:12.160 have Viking you have the word Valhalla usually. 00:07:12.899 --> 00:07:15.600 It all has the same connection. And I remember 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.000 running around as Evo, the female version, because 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.300 you can't pick one gender or the other in the 00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:23.139 game, and coming across non -playable characters, 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:26.139 just programable townsfolk, playing the game. 00:07:26.500 --> 00:07:29.040 Sometimes in little rooms, like a whole little 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.939 setup of different players. I thought, how cool 00:07:31.939 --> 00:07:34.040 would that be, actually, going back to the Viking 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:35.680 Age and finding they actually have their own 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:40.339 little tackle clubs. Yeah. Am I right in thinking 00:07:40.339 --> 00:07:42.060 that, like, it's been a while since I've played 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:44.220 Assassin's Creed Valhalla, so I might be misremembering, 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:49.100 but the board game in that isn't the same as 00:07:49.100 --> 00:07:51.120 the taffle that I'm thinking of, which is the 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:52.980 sort of very chess -looking thing. There's sort 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:56.500 of the, what is it, the little rune stones? You're 00:07:56.500 --> 00:08:00.759 right. Yes, it's called, and I'm going to have 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:03.319 to Google it on my phone because I can't remember 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:05.259 the name of it. Yes, we do have a game that you 00:08:05.259 --> 00:08:08.160 can play with the townspeople and it involves... 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.540 Sorry, what did you say, Luca? No, yeah, the 00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:12.000 minigame that you can actually play, because 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.720 like you said, you can see people playing, you 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:18.360 know, a representation of Tafel, but these are 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.660 minigames that you have access to. And I never 00:08:20.660 --> 00:08:23.980 played it because I always hated minigames inside 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:25.920 of my RPGs. I'm like, no, I'm here to like, you 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.399 know, learn magic and explore dungeons. I don't 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:32.519 want to stop and play chess. But I know it's, 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.659 you know, it's a big part of these things as 00:08:34.659 --> 00:08:39.480 well. game is. It's telling me about Assassin's 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:40.779 Creed Valhalla. I want to know what the game 00:08:40.779 --> 00:08:44.980 is. That's it. Found it. Orlog. Which is an unusual 00:08:44.980 --> 00:08:49.980 word. I can never understand. It's a mini game. 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.559 It's played with six dice. It involves dice rolls 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:55.240 and god favors to damage your opponents because 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:59.019 you use these little stones as like health points 00:08:59.019 --> 00:09:01.460 almost when you got to kind of like knock them 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:03.460 off. And there's also drinking games and other. 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.440 types of minigames in this, but Orlog is one. 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.679 And I have seen people either making it for custom 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.879 purchase, like on handcraft sites, or doing videos 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:15.980 where they play it themselves and see if they 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:19.460 can beat all the champions of Orlog that you 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:22.279 meet in the towns. So it's a very good point. 00:09:22.779 --> 00:09:25.399 There's actually an article, I think, on that 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:30.659 game Orlog by another PhD student who's studying 00:09:30.659 --> 00:09:36.720 at Helsinki, I think. I have no idea if I'm pronouncing 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.980 her name correctly, but I'm sorry. No worries, 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:41.559 no worries. I couldn't correct you, so I don't 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:47.940 know. But there are also, there's another article 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:50.419 that addresses the, because in the same way that 00:09:50.419 --> 00:09:52.039 you can play, you know, digital solitaire and 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.000 digital chess, you can play like digital, so, 00:09:56.659 --> 00:09:59.279 and I think there's several different versions 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.830 that have tried to digitize it. That's true. 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:05.769 There's many different ways. You don't need the 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:08.450 board, Emma. You can just go on Steam. It's true. 00:10:09.889 --> 00:10:12.629 Yeah, I clearly just want Becky to sit divinely 00:10:12.629 --> 00:10:13.929 taffled. That was just what I was aiming for. 00:10:13.990 --> 00:10:18.169 Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm ruining your gift idea. 00:10:19.450 --> 00:10:22.250 But it is the same point that you kind of raised, 00:10:22.269 --> 00:10:26.029 Becky, in terms of... people who recreate mini 00:10:26.029 --> 00:10:28.009 games from video games. I'm thinking specifically 00:10:28.009 --> 00:10:29.950 of like Gwent from The Witcher, which has become 00:10:29.950 --> 00:10:32.330 a massive thing and people are on Etsy producing 00:10:32.330 --> 00:10:35.169 like really beautiful Gwent cards. And it's a 00:10:35.169 --> 00:10:37.889 case of, it's interesting to think of a video 00:10:37.889 --> 00:10:40.629 game recreating a historical board game that 00:10:40.629 --> 00:10:42.950 then gets recreated by someone who's played the 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:46.009 video game and the different dimensions of interpretation. 00:10:47.590 --> 00:10:50.950 It is, I think that's the wonderful thing about 00:10:50.970 --> 00:10:54.029 modern creativity and especially with history 00:10:54.029 --> 00:10:57.370 and the mythological side of course but where 00:10:57.370 --> 00:10:59.269 there's gaps where we don't have any definitive 00:10:59.269 --> 00:11:02.389 things that way it gives us that wiggle room 00:11:02.389 --> 00:11:04.429 to say okay well it could be this or it could 00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:06.850 be that because we've got no one to say ah it's 00:11:06.850 --> 00:11:10.970 wrong because no one knows for sure. I mean certainly 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:14.429 thinking outside the Viking Age slightly of course 00:11:14.429 --> 00:11:17.490 is the Lewis Chess Benz set which is down in 00:11:17.490 --> 00:11:20.200 the British Museum still I think. Although I 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.320 think a few pieces have gone here, there and 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.139 other museums. I think one is in Orkney. I think 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:26.879 it's Orkney that was founded. Was it Shetland? 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:29.860 One of the two. One of the two. It's in one of 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:34.860 the aisles along the top of the UK. But even 00:11:34.860 --> 00:11:37.940 that kind of just shows the love of chess. I 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:40.539 mean, we call it chessmen. I assume they do actually 00:11:40.539 --> 00:11:42.080 match up with a proper full game of chess. But 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.570 they're all beautifully hand -carved. And we're 00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:46.610 hidden away, and obviously some of us have loved 00:11:46.610 --> 00:11:48.950 and wanted to keep them safe from whatever was 00:11:48.950 --> 00:11:52.129 happening at the time. And then, of course, people 00:11:52.129 --> 00:11:54.049 do get buried with games. Of course, we don't 00:11:54.049 --> 00:11:56.409 really bury anyone with things these days, but 00:11:56.409 --> 00:11:58.320 gosh, imagine what a... dungeon master these 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:02.620 days who takes like how many manuals, how many 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:05.840 packs of maps, all the tokens. I always talk 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.539 about how like when I die as an archaeologist 00:12:08.539 --> 00:12:11.059 I just want to be buried in the weirdest way 00:12:11.059 --> 00:12:13.000 possible to confuse future archaeologists and 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.179 I think just being buried with all my dice might 00:12:16.179 --> 00:12:22.259 do a lot for that. But that's a good point about 00:12:22.259 --> 00:12:25.639 dice because that made me think of a guy called 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.340 Adam Blue Axe go looking up on Instagram. Oh, 00:12:28.419 --> 00:12:32.659 you've got I've just literally put all my D &D 00:12:32.659 --> 00:12:34.500 bags upstairs. I mean, that's where all I forgot 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:37.860 to bring all my many Viking inspired D &D source 00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:39.720 books down, but my husband's not having an app. 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:43.320 So I have got many, dear viewers, I have got 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.360 many. And the sticking on the issue of dice, 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:50.500 Adam Blue Axe is a brilliant Artifact Recreationist 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:52.759 Smith, he learned all the ways of making them 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.799 and he also kind of like he showed up these tiny 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.000 little polyhedral weights because of course they 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:00.940 use this dice that we used as weights back then 00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:02.720 and they keep saying they look like dice because 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:06.460 we call them the D &D weights because they could 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:08.139 be used you just need to take numbers on and 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:10.779 then you and then you can use them because of 00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:12.559 course some weights have been found that look 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:16.740 remarkably like dice and speaking of dice on 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:20.409 a slight topic I remember when there was a great 00:13:20.409 --> 00:13:22.470 exhibition travelling around the UK to do with 00:13:22.470 --> 00:13:27.450 the Torxy River Camp that was found and the hundreds 00:13:27.450 --> 00:13:29.590 of dice that they found. How many people were 00:13:29.590 --> 00:13:31.970 losing dice in that camp? It was countless because 00:13:31.970 --> 00:13:33.889 they lost so many and they were all in different 00:13:33.889 --> 00:13:36.690 shapes and sizes and had different ways of marking 00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:40.429 the numbers on. It's just yeah I think I think 00:13:40.429 --> 00:13:42.850 a Norseman would appreciate those dice goblins 00:13:42.850 --> 00:13:49.039 and the D &D community. And we're just slowly 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:53.000 finding the origin of the Dice Goblin. Yeah. 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.379 Well, I certainly remember coming across, ironically 00:13:57.379 --> 00:13:59.200 enough on threads, which isn't a platform I visit 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:01.259 much. I should do, because I know it's got some 00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:04.440 people I like and follow on that. Someone posted 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:09.379 a photo of a Roman Dice Tower. And it had a Latin 00:14:09.379 --> 00:14:11.679 inscription around the top, something along the 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:14.259 lines of we've. one victory against the Picts, 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.960 now let's drink and play games. And it is exactly 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.000 like the fold -out dice towers that you get in 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.980 most D &D shops, and of course I kept thinking 00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:25.059 Romans playing D &D. What would their imaginations 00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:26.759 take them? What stories and adventures would 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.460 they have? Would they be playing with the Greek 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:35.360 or the Roman gods, I suppose. Games and play, 00:14:35.539 --> 00:14:37.980 it's such a human thing and the sort of having 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:41.100 a game with rules and tactile things, it is dice 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:44.740 or cards in the form of Gwent. It's certainly 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.820 an ageless thing, as ageless as storytelling 00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:53.179 in a way, I think. Especially with the game of, 00:14:53.179 --> 00:14:55.559 not sorry, all log, but certainly Tafel, with 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.080 it being a strategic game and almost like... 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.620 battle it just shows the kind of mindset that 00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:04.659 these people must have had and who was trying 00:15:04.659 --> 00:15:06.919 to play these games because they probably weren't 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:08.519 well they were probably to make if you could 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.179 just have a piece of wood and just cut some lines 00:15:10.179 --> 00:15:12.879 and get some random rocks and but other like 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:14.879 proper nicely made sense obviously for the upper 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.220 class those who could afford it those who had 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:19.899 maybe higher goals or esteemed or who knew nobility 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:23.240 or had people's family who were warriors and 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:25.360 had to go out and protect the kingdom and defend 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:31.840 the king and queen and whatnot I certainly would 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.559 love to know how many taffle sex there are out 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.460 now in graves now. I would love to know a number 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:39.720 because I don't know how many have ever been 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.779 found. It's an interesting one. So keeping in 00:15:43.779 --> 00:15:46.279 mind that I obviously specialize a lot in Denmark, 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:49.220 there's definitely one in Jutland, which is the 00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:53.159 mainland of Denmark, which was found with what 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:58.480 they thought to be an adult woman. But again, 00:15:58.939 --> 00:16:01.100 Grave goods and gender in the Viking Age is a 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:03.399 bit of a tricky subject in the sense that we 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.299 assume jewelry was women and, you know, swords 00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:08.820 equal men, but isn't always the case. But this 00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:12.059 particular grave was some jewelry and a gaming 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.580 board. And then the other sort of main example 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.779 I can think of is the big vehicle burial, which 00:16:17.779 --> 00:16:20.059 was believed to be a male warrior, was resexed 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:24.159 as a female. So she had a gaming board set with 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.039 her, and it's often believed to reflect kind 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:31.750 of Not necessarily like military kind of power 00:16:31.750 --> 00:16:33.750 but sort of that kind of strategic thinking of 00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:36.649 this person was important to To kind of the local 00:16:36.649 --> 00:16:39.269 community, but it's obviously a hard one to read 00:16:39.269 --> 00:16:42.870 into because it is also Play, right? So it doesn't 00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:44.929 have to be this military sense just because it's 00:16:44.929 --> 00:16:48.230 in a grave and So we can sort of unpick that 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:53.509 in many different ways Yeah in a sort of literary 00:16:53.509 --> 00:16:58.379 example as well I always forget the name of the 00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:02.320 actual poem, but in Orkney and Gethaga, sort 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:07.880 of the poem that the Earl of Orkney and one of 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.799 his courtiers essentially composed in tandem 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:16.619 mentions these kind of valuable skills that they 00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.220 both know. And one of them is knowing how to 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:21.579 play an epitapel. So it clearly also had sort 00:17:21.579 --> 00:17:24.559 of like a Game of Kings kind of connotation like 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.549 chess does as well and did for many. many years. 00:17:29.289 --> 00:17:32.230 But yeah, the fact that it's in these sort of 00:17:32.230 --> 00:17:34.769 particular types of graves, definitely like elite, 00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:37.750 but some sort of yeah, like military strategy, 00:17:38.029 --> 00:17:40.789 like not just a rich warrior, but like somebody 00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:46.470 who knew how to plan. Very interesting. I guess 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:49.970 because they certainly have a game like this, 00:17:50.049 --> 00:17:52.210 you must have the time to learn how to play it 00:17:52.210 --> 00:17:53.869 and then play it, whereas a lot of the common 00:17:53.869 --> 00:17:55.710 folk might have been too busy just surviving, 00:17:55.930 --> 00:17:58.369 living, farming, crafting, sailing, raiding and 00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:01.029 doing everything else. But the common folk of 00:18:01.029 --> 00:18:04.650 the Viking Age time might not do. I can't remember 00:18:04.650 --> 00:18:07.369 now if the Yorbit Viking Centre have got even 00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:11.470 scratchings of what could have been used as a 00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:13.470 tackle board for any of their wooden pieces unless 00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:15.849 I'm thinking of something from the British Museum 00:18:15.849 --> 00:18:18.750 exhibition that they did. Oh my gosh, at least 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:23.109 10 years ago now, a lifetime ago. I'm sure I 00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:25.230 remember something like that. I could be wrong. 00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:28.130 My memory isn't the best of things. It's an interesting 00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:30.170 point, because I think it's not a case maybe 00:18:30.170 --> 00:18:33.089 that the common folk didn't play games, but maybe 00:18:33.089 --> 00:18:36.210 the material of the games was different. So if 00:18:36.210 --> 00:18:38.329 they're just crashing into the mud, for example, 00:18:38.329 --> 00:18:40.029 that's not going to last in the archaeological 00:18:40.029 --> 00:18:43.390 record, whereas someone who has money to create 00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:45.549 a really nice board, we're more likely to see 00:18:45.549 --> 00:18:47.589 that. So it's not so much that They didn't play 00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:49.990 it, just maybe they played with different material. 00:18:51.029 --> 00:18:55.210 Yeah. Web especially. Yeah. Does that last? Not 00:18:55.210 --> 00:19:00.930 at all. I don't suppose I would know of any other 00:19:00.930 --> 00:19:03.650 type of Norse or medieval type game that might 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:06.190 have been around or perhaps at the time besides 00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:09.250 Tafel. Because I certainly can't think of any. 00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:15.890 I mean, in. In the sagas, of course, we have, 00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:18.150 I mean, not board games, of course, we have like 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:22.269 sports references, but as far as like board games, 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:25.609 which is obviously the topic, I don't think there's 00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:29.130 anything. There's the really obscure reference 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:34.630 in Voluspao to the random, you know, golden gaming 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:36.670 pieces that the gods play with at the beginning. 00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:39.930 And then after the sort of rebirth of the world, 00:19:39.930 --> 00:19:43.029 after the final, you know, the true final battle. 00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:46.309 They find the gaming pieces in the grass again, 00:19:46.650 --> 00:19:49.170 and the good times come back. But they're just 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.130 golden gaming pieces. It doesn't say which game 00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:54.430 or what they're doing with them. Just the idea 00:19:54.430 --> 00:19:57.549 of play, like you say. Just the idea, the concept 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:01.069 of having the leisure time and these delightful, 00:20:01.529 --> 00:20:03.509 having enough gold to just make game pieces out 00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:08.369 of and throw them into grass, apparently. That's 00:20:08.369 --> 00:20:09.970 a very, very good point, completely forgotten 00:20:09.970 --> 00:20:12.210 about it being mentioned in the whole kind of 00:20:12.210 --> 00:20:15.849 pantheon arc of the end and rebirth of the world. 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:21.670 That is a very, very good point. So I guess we'll 00:20:21.670 --> 00:20:23.869 just stick with Tattle because we know that's 00:20:23.869 --> 00:20:26.329 definitely existed and been around and was played 00:20:26.329 --> 00:20:29.410 out with Vikings and it's been around for a while. 00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:34.859 I guess Emma, can you remember when the first 00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:37.240 time you came across anything Norse or Viking 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:43.200 -y in your B &D experience? So I think it's interesting 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:48.059 because... The Norse gods have been in Dungeons 00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:50.619 and Dragons since pretty much Dungeons and Dragons 00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:53.480 started. So Dungeons and Dragons released in 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:58.140 1974 and they did a supplementary materials book 00:20:58.140 --> 00:21:01.160 in 1976 where they said, hey, you can use the 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:03.859 Norse gods if you want to. So they've kind of 00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:06.220 been embedded into D &D from the start and then 00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:10.079 actual kind of campaign settings for the Vikings 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.980 have been around since. like the late 80s so 00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:15.380 it took a little while for them to get their 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:18.339 own thing but yeah they've been in there from 00:21:18.339 --> 00:21:21.859 the start in terms of I guess for me it was something 00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:26.059 I started thinking more about I guess with loads 00:21:26.059 --> 00:21:28.140 of the video games coming out around a similar 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.500 time after the Vikings TV series but also you 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:36.019 had the kind of campaign module, Rime of the 00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:39.000 Frost Maiden, which is an Icewind Dale setting 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.099 for Dungeons and Dragons, which is very much 00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:44.099 the frozen tundra of the North. And you can kind 00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:46.660 of make that as Viking coded as you want to. 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.259 So I ran that campaign and just being a Viking 00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:53.000 person was like, well, here is my snowy landscape 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.099 to throw all my Viking lore at everyone. So that's 00:21:56.099 --> 00:22:00.559 kind of where I started thinking about it. That's 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:05.759 a very good point about how Certainly a lot of 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.200 the references I've come across to Titan Dorsness 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.420 in both computer games and tabletop games, they 00:22:11.420 --> 00:22:13.660 always seem to come from a very cold climate. 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:20.009 Why are the Vikings there? Yeah, they don't just 00:22:20.009 --> 00:22:22.250 come from anywhere like around the UK, where 00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:25.089 the weather's more temperate and mild, stormy, 00:22:25.130 --> 00:22:26.670 perhaps weather. You might actually have summer. 00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:28.490 I mean, they probably did have summer more reliable 00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.910 than we do today. The seasons were much more 00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:35.250 tamed and regular back then, without industrialisation 00:22:35.250 --> 00:22:39.109 meddling in. You know, very recently, in my own 00:22:39.109 --> 00:22:43.470 personal D &D experience, I played a fighter 00:22:43.470 --> 00:22:45.529 who I made distinctly north with the name of 00:22:45.529 --> 00:22:48.509 Bryn. and then I tried to give her the name Dan's 00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:50.630 daughter because I was trying to mix Vanir and 00:22:50.630 --> 00:22:52.930 daughter together. But that was me messing with 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:56.009 linguistics. But whenever she gets asked about 00:22:56.009 --> 00:22:57.349 where she comes from, she always says I come 00:22:57.349 --> 00:22:59.490 from the icy fjords and the snow -capped mountains. 00:22:59.670 --> 00:23:01.910 So it's not north as you can possibly guess. 00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:05.089 That's where she comes from. It's not just from 00:23:05.089 --> 00:23:08.490 Harbour City or even kind of like kind of started 00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:13.470 there but grew up somewhere else. That's a really 00:23:13.470 --> 00:23:16.480 good point. Certainly some of the expansions, 00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:18.640 well not quite the expansions, but like little 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.940 add -on supplements that I got, without being 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:25.140 hard back bound usually the PDFs, they often 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.579 kind of highlight that coldness, they give them 00:23:27.579 --> 00:23:30.599 more fur, they give them cold resistance and 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.680 kind of like ice damage and all sorts. There's 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.319 a very much connection with cold in Vikings for 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.960 some strange reason and I don't know where this 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.000 stems from, but it just seems to stick as much 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:47.549 as the horned helmets do. Yeah, I think, I guess, 00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:50.710 because in this, this is maybe over generalizing 00:23:50.710 --> 00:23:53.730 fantasy, but I think the point is that we tend 00:23:53.730 --> 00:23:59.089 to be a bit more kind of categorical in the sense 00:23:59.089 --> 00:24:01.109 of in a lot of fantasy novels, it's like, here's 00:24:01.109 --> 00:24:04.130 the icy country, and here's the desert country, 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:06.289 and here's the kind of rainforest country, and 00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:09.099 it's a case of it. homogenizes cultures quite 00:24:09.099 --> 00:24:11.960 quickly and I guess the Vikings are a very easy 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.099 allegory for you know frozen north if you want 00:24:15.099 --> 00:24:18.500 to look for kind of inspiration. I even just 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:20.680 thinking of like Rime at the Frostmaid and the 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.960 Icewind module. Even though it doesn't code itself 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.579 as Viking inherently, when it's like, here are 00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:28.559 the suggested names for people who live in Isle 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:32.440 of Dale, it's like Astrid, Brynhild, Joffers, 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:34.700 and it gets very Scandinavian very quickly. So 00:24:34.700 --> 00:24:36.839 they're kind of leading you down a path, even 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.180 if they're not forcing it on you. Yeah, actually 00:24:41.180 --> 00:24:43.220 a question about that rhyme of the frost maiden. 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:46.660 Maybe it's just coincidence, but is that based 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:50.279 on like Robert Howard's rhyme of the frost maiden? 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:54.069 I'm pretty sure it's... He has like a Norse Earth 00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:57.390 -like true Viking short story. It's called like 00:24:57.390 --> 00:24:59.410 Rime of the Frostmaiden or something like that. 00:24:59.670 --> 00:25:01.089 I would imagine there are links to that. I would 00:25:01.089 --> 00:25:04.809 also imagine it's partially referring to the 00:25:04.809 --> 00:25:06.750 Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson as well, 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:09.210 because there's a lot of that kind of mythology 00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:11.190 to it, which obviously isn't inherently Viking, 00:25:11.269 --> 00:25:14.569 but is very Scandinavian. Yeah, I mean, this 00:25:14.569 --> 00:25:18.259 is all touching upon what we were. all kind of 00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:20.359 talking about after Caroline's keynote about 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.480 the boreal medievalism, about the different ideas 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.579 of just the North. So it doesn't have to be Viking 00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:29.420 coded, but if you've got some fjords and snowy 00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:31.759 mountains, people are kind of going to expect 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.900 to see Vikings come sailing around the corner 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:41.720 at some point. But I'm pretty sure one can reasonably 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.299 argue that the association does come from like 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:50.859 19th century German philosophy, apparently, especially 00:25:50.859 --> 00:25:56.400 concerning, you know, the old annoying holdover 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.420 about, you know, hard climates make hard people. 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.400 And of course, the idea that, you know, Scandinavia 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.200 is quite cold, at least for half the year, even 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.500 though it does become green, even though some 00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:10.339 people don't believe it. And so that sort of 00:26:10.339 --> 00:26:12.279 just became crystallized as like, it's always 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.460 cold. And it's made them like extremely grim. 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:20.339 sort of eager to go south and raid and pillage 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:27.640 and take. So this kind of old holdover from 19th 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:32.500 century philosophy and ethnography from back 00:26:32.500 --> 00:26:37.720 then. And it's just stuck ever since. That's 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:42.180 a good point. It's quite remarkable how much 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:45.220 kind of like the impression or the mindset has 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:48.619 been fixed on stuff that was created or written 00:26:48.619 --> 00:26:52.079 about or well created or written about centuries 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.859 ago and it still repeats to this day kind of 00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.859 thing and especially in terms of Vikings of course 00:26:58.859 --> 00:27:02.220 I mentioned Horde Helmets we all know just to 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:04.460 clarify there is a listener's Victorian invention 00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:07.900 blame Wagner, but also blame his costume designer, 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:09.819 Emil Doppler, because I know from my research 00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:12.160 that it was his choice to put the horns on the 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.240 helmets. And even I've heard Dr Anina Amiras, 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:18.200 who is a historian idol of mine, she's kind of 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:19.700 said it was just clearly so they could be seen 00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:21.680 from the back of the stage, that's all it was. 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.720 And I'm actually going to see the Valkyrie iteration 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:28.380 of it from the British Royal Opera tomorrow. 00:27:29.619 --> 00:27:31.339 I wouldn't have seen it by the time this episode 00:27:31.339 --> 00:27:33.809 drops, but I am seeing it. right after this recording. 00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:36.589 They're showing it at cinemas across the UK so 00:27:36.589 --> 00:27:37.849 I don't have to go all the way down to London 00:27:37.849 --> 00:27:41.029 to see it. Okay. It's a good five hours long. 00:27:41.349 --> 00:27:43.390 Yeah I was going to say that's going to be quite 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:47.609 long. And it's my first ever opera so it's going 00:27:47.609 --> 00:27:51.470 to be a whole world of an experience. Very cool. 00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:53.869 The costumes are very 20th century, very 20th 00:27:53.869 --> 00:27:56.069 century from the preview images I have seen so 00:27:56.069 --> 00:27:58.700 it's going to be... interesting thankfully they 00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:00.500 are providing subtitles otherwise i wouldn't 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:02.880 have a clue what anyone's saying besides characters 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:08.859 names that'll be it yeah um what i was trying 00:28:08.859 --> 00:28:16.839 to say was um in terms of dnd games i guess oh 00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:18.539 more important more to catch up on your point 00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:21.440 emma about categorization and of course it does 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.359 link into how fantasy writers have depicted worlds 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:30.069 and set the tone um I can certainly think that 00:28:30.069 --> 00:28:33.869 maybe perhaps historically with kind of Anglo 00:28:33.869 --> 00:28:36.670 -Saxon England being around for so long and often 00:28:36.670 --> 00:28:39.529 being kind of like the lowlands, the bean pastures, 00:28:39.690 --> 00:28:42.849 the marshes, the rivers, the shores, they almost 00:28:42.849 --> 00:28:48.869 kind of like have claimed that fantastical terrain 00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:51.309 for themselves. It can't ever be nought, it's 00:28:51.309 --> 00:28:54.789 going to be medieval slash Anglo -Saxon a -dish. 00:28:55.210 --> 00:28:57.690 or renaissance or any other period but Viking 00:28:57.690 --> 00:29:00.309 even though we had Viking York for hundreds of 00:29:00.309 --> 00:29:03.150 years and they lived there and they spoke Norse 00:29:03.150 --> 00:29:04.930 as well as Anglo -Saxon and everything else in 00:29:04.930 --> 00:29:07.029 between. It's like they don't often acknowledge 00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:09.670 that when these cultures co -exist quite happily 00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:12.009 together and have done and that's how the Vikings 00:29:12.009 --> 00:29:14.910 survived because they just amalgamated into everything 00:29:14.910 --> 00:29:19.809 and everyone basically. Yeah this is pretty much 00:29:19.809 --> 00:29:22.329 the entirety of my PhD in the sense of for a 00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:24.960 very long time the question in archaeology is 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.039 why can't we see Viking burials in England because 00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.660 we see kind of more stereotypical examples up 00:29:31.660 --> 00:29:34.279 in Scotland or we see one or two in England but 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.279 not a lot and it's a case of well there are more 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.200 interesting questions if we're not seeing stereotypical 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.259 Viking burials that says a lot about how the 00:29:42.259 --> 00:29:45.920 cultures kind of commingled and also I would 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.519 also argue what is a Viking burial is is actually 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.690 not as stereotypically convenient as we want 00:29:52.690 --> 00:29:55.430 it to be. I obviously do a lot of Danish burials. 00:29:55.549 --> 00:29:56.869 There are people on the project who do a lot 00:29:56.869 --> 00:29:59.109 of Swedish burials. And they will frequently 00:29:59.109 --> 00:30:02.029 say, oh, most people in the Viking Age are cremated. 00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:04.549 And I'm just in the corner going, not in Denmark. 00:30:05.750 --> 00:30:09.250 So it's very easy to fall into, I guess, stereotypes 00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:12.069 without actually having as much evidence for 00:30:12.069 --> 00:30:16.410 it as we think we do. And the Viking Age was 00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:20.970 a long period and lots happened, lots of invasions, 00:30:21.289 --> 00:30:25.329 colonization, settling, raiding, pillaging, and 00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:27.990 of course fighting in between everyone else as 00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.769 the Vikings came along. Because of course I keep 00:30:30.769 --> 00:30:36.109 thinking back to of course, oh Ethelred the Unready 00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:38.930 and how he triggered a bit of a thing with Swayne 00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:40.890 Fortbeard when he said let's kill all the Danes, 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:42.730 we don't want them here, let's eradicate them 00:30:42.730 --> 00:30:45.480 and then But that just proved that there were 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.039 that many happily settled living and working 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.720 in various ranks of society, assumably, that 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.859 he obviously decided it was a bit too much for 00:30:55.859 --> 00:31:00.140 some reason or another. But as a Dane, Danes 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:01.859 can be quite a lot. So I understand people wanting 00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:08.000 to get rid of the Danes. I can say that. But 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.259 yeah, of course, speaking. That brings back to 00:31:11.259 --> 00:31:13.140 your point kind of like, what is Viking? Of course, 00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:16.200 we use, everyone used the word Viking, but it's 00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:21.400 not a particular person or country or origin, 00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:23.339 because the whole of Scandinavia was different 00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:26.420 between kingdoms for ages before Sweden became 00:31:26.420 --> 00:31:29.119 Sweden, before Norway became Norway. Denmark 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:32.180 was kind of always Denmark -ish. You just didn't 00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:35.119 have the name Denmark -ish, because there's bits 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:37.240 and pieces of island like Jutland, as you say. 00:31:37.849 --> 00:31:39.829 So they were as fractured as the English, that's 00:31:39.829 --> 00:31:41.990 in Kingdoms were. So of course unification and 00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:43.829 then the fact that they are now three countries 00:31:43.829 --> 00:31:48.430 and not just one giant one. And I think I now 00:31:48.430 --> 00:31:50.170 have come across it in certainly some historical 00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:53.089 fiction that I read that kind of like if a Norseman 00:31:53.089 --> 00:31:55.309 gets called Danish or Swedish he finds that very 00:31:55.309 --> 00:31:57.990 insulting and equally vice versa. They don't 00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:02.529 like being labeled the same authenticity or origin 00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:07.700 I should say. Sometimes I have come across actual 00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:10.000 characters in books playing Tafel but actually 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.160 not as much as I think many because they're often 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.480 too kind of dramatic and lots of adventures and 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.039 sailing and raiding and trying to survive and 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.579 whatnot and that kind of thing. But it's an interesting 00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.880 one I think maybe should be looked more at as 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.579 historical fiction writers and certainly and 00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:29.519 game writers definitely do, both in tabletop 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.839 and of course into computer games which tabletop 00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:35.420 heavily influenced and you can probably tell 00:32:35.420 --> 00:32:38.980 us more on that, Luca, I believe. Sure, yeah, 00:32:39.019 --> 00:32:41.759 I mean just the basics which Emma probably is 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.759 already very familiar with. Everything sort of 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.900 started with these, you know, tabletop miniature 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:50.960 word games which then became D &D when they mixed 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:56.059 in kind of Tolkien -esque, Howardian and Lovecraftian 00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:58.839 kind of science fiction and fantasy fiction, 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.019 and reduced the size from armies to the party, 00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:06.579 just like the fellowship. And then very soon 00:33:06.579 --> 00:33:11.200 after computers became, I mean, even when they 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:14.099 were only the purview of research institutes 00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:16.880 and military infrastructure, people were already 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.119 playing around on these huge, fridge -sized, 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:24.009 clanging computers. But once computers also became 00:33:24.009 --> 00:33:26.069 more widespread, especially on university campuses, 00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:28.450 people immediately started using them for gaming 00:33:28.450 --> 00:33:33.829 and figured out very fast that the type of numeric 00:33:33.829 --> 00:33:37.849 basis of any sort of tabletop games fits very 00:33:37.849 --> 00:33:39.410 well when you can have the computer just do all 00:33:39.410 --> 00:33:42.569 the calculations instantaneously for you and 00:33:42.569 --> 00:33:46.130 leave sort of the more interesting kind of role 00:33:46.130 --> 00:33:48.609 -playing aspects up to the player to sort of 00:33:48.609 --> 00:33:50.390 just enjoy without worrying about all of this. 00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:55.869 annoying mathematics. And so there's a yeah, 00:33:55.869 --> 00:33:59.890 there's a direct line into I mean, the ski RPG 00:33:59.890 --> 00:34:04.009 or computer RPG is like a kind of main pillar 00:34:04.009 --> 00:34:06.130 of the history of video games in general, because 00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:09.829 these are some of the earliest games were these 00:34:09.829 --> 00:34:12.230 text based adventures. So even before you had 00:34:12.230 --> 00:34:17.510 a visual output in the form of a screen, you 00:34:17.510 --> 00:34:21.579 had these or rather, you know, There were screens, 00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:23.420 of course, but not the type of screens we think 00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:25.880 of that were able to display image, but purely 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:28.840 just text. You had these text -based adventure 00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:31.960 games like Colossal Cave Adventure, or just called 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:33.980 Adventure for short, which was directly based 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:38.360 on Tolkien's legendarium. Middle -earth saga 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.900 stuff, but in the form of this text -based CRPG 00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.219 that handled all the dice rolls and stats for 00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:48.800 you and things like that. They're very closely 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:53.199 aligned and still are. Very much so. I think 00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:55.739 any computer game that has a hit point bar just 00:34:55.739 --> 00:35:01.219 has D &D to thank for the word hit point. They 00:35:01.219 --> 00:35:02.739 say health points sometimes, but we know what 00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:08.940 they mean. And of course most viewers and listeners 00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.659 may be familiar with Baldur's Gate 3, which is 00:35:11.659 --> 00:35:16.880 entirely D &D just as a computer game. I haven't. 00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:18.900 I think I remember playing the early Baldur's 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:21.800 Gate many, many, many, many moons ago. very vague 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.039 memories of it and I think we might have done 00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:26.400 Baldur's Gate 2, have yet to touch on Baldur's 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.219 Gate 3. I mean I haven't completed Assassin's 00:35:28.219 --> 00:35:30.239 Creed Valhalla ladies and gentlemen, so this 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.239 is how much of a backlog I have in gaming. Who 00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:39.239 has? I remember like completing all of Norway 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.320 and being like excellent right and then you get 00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:46.420 to be like England and I went oh no the completionist 00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:51.599 in me is crying. Oh god. Well, see, if anything, 00:35:51.699 --> 00:35:53.300 when I was playing the first bit where she is 00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:55.480 in Norway, I kept trying to literally try to 00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:56.619 find the edge of the map just because I always 00:35:56.619 --> 00:35:58.920 liked taking photos. Photo mode is what got me. 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.099 I spend more time either role playing or doing 00:36:01.099 --> 00:36:03.239 the photo mode, trying to get lovely action shots, 00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:06.079 beautiful scenes, screen backdrops from my computer. 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:07.880 And of course, I'd eventually hit the barrier 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.199 of the game and say, no, you're going to go back 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:12.099 into your 21st century character. I'm like, no, 00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:14.500 I want to go back to being a Norse woman. Thank 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:19.599 you very much. So yes, so besides Assassin's 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.719 Creed Valhalla, of course, which has made a number 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.619 of headlines when it came out for various reasons, 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.780 another very successful game that has adopted 00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:32.659 the Norse mythology certainly, of course, is 00:36:32.659 --> 00:36:36.860 the revived God of War games, which began anew 00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:42.139 in 2018 because that took the Greek hero or anti 00:36:42.139 --> 00:36:44.280 -hero depending on how you view him and decided 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.300 to plumb him straight in a world of north mythology 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:48.719 which i think was a very very bold move i don't 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.579 know who did it but they picked the name on the 00:36:51.579 --> 00:36:54.239 head well because everyone loves it unfortunately 00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:57.840 i can't play it because i don't have a ps4 so 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.679 my mere glimpse of it was watching by my brother 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:03.039 and it was usually when he was battling the valkyries 00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:06.460 or learning after telling me about oh how atreus 00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:09.130 is now low -key and i'm like oh okay yeah That 00:37:09.130 --> 00:37:11.690 makes sense. If he has a sprig of mistletoe, 00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:13.230 I can tell you what he's going to do with it, 00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:24.769 if you want me to tell you. Oilers. Well, I was 00:37:24.769 --> 00:37:29.010 about to say something. Yes, because I did write 00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:32.570 an article on 2018 God of War, the first Norse 00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:36.630 one. And I did find out that it kind of came 00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:38.550 down to a split decision because it had been 00:37:38.710 --> 00:37:42.269 whole five years since the previous God of War 00:37:42.269 --> 00:37:44.809 game had come out, mainline God of War, God of 00:37:44.809 --> 00:37:50.289 War 3. So they're like, okay, we gotta kickstart 00:37:50.289 --> 00:37:55.389 the next console iteration of God of War. What 00:37:55.389 --> 00:37:58.829 should we do? We've had, I think, in total, including 00:37:58.829 --> 00:38:01.989 the side games, it was like 11, I think, God 00:38:01.989 --> 00:38:05.070 of War games. And it's all about Kratos, the 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:11.369 Spartan, semi -divine, anti -hero at times. They're 00:38:11.369 --> 00:38:13.030 like, okay, this has been done to death. Like, 00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:14.909 we either have to change the character or we 00:38:14.909 --> 00:38:16.889 have to totally change the setting. And they 00:38:16.889 --> 00:38:19.630 were like, well, we can't get rid of Kratos, 00:38:20.590 --> 00:38:23.510 even though he would love nothing more than to 00:38:23.510 --> 00:38:28.510 be put to rest at some points in the game. So 00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:30.929 they totally redid the setting and chose Norse 00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:33.929 mythology, probably because it was very in vogue 00:38:33.929 --> 00:38:37.769 at the time. Even when they started developing 00:38:37.769 --> 00:38:40.389 the game because it came out in 2018 and it was 00:38:40.389 --> 00:38:43.130 about a five -year development cycle in 2013 00:38:43.130 --> 00:38:44.789 you have to think obviously the Thor movies were 00:38:44.789 --> 00:38:47.050 already coming out Game of Thrones was in full 00:38:47.050 --> 00:38:51.210 swing Vikings had also just just started I think 00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:53.710 in 2013 so they were these things were already 00:38:53.710 --> 00:38:56.389 in the air Skyrim obviously everyone was obsessed 00:38:56.389 --> 00:38:58.750 with Skyrim still and still is or at least I 00:38:58.750 --> 00:39:03.260 still am I keep hearing things about Skyrim But 00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:06.059 again, as a parent, I lack the time and the energy 00:39:06.059 --> 00:39:09.880 to play. I have a long list of games, and I think 00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:12.659 I'll play them when I retire. That's what I'm 00:39:12.659 --> 00:39:16.340 keeping the books up for every time. To add more 00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:18.300 games to your list, though, both the God of War 00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:21.500 games, the recent ones, are on PC now, so you 00:39:21.500 --> 00:39:25.320 have no escape. The thing is, I'm rubbish at 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.940 the hacks. splash and dodge. I'm rubbish at dodging. 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.679 I can hit things and run or I can shoot from 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.760 afar. My ex used to get really annoyed at me 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.380 because he used to say, Emma, the parry button 00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:39.280 exists. And I'm just like, no, that's not my 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:41.880 place. So I just hit things. So you can play 00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.539 it and just hit things. It's just not as effective. 00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:47.760 Yes. I mean, even as Assassin's Creed Valhalla, 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.599 I'm still kind of like just endlessly hitting 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.039 things until they stop hitting me and then running 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:56.400 away as soon as my health gets too low. Valid. 00:39:57.059 --> 00:39:58.900 It's like how in Pokemon there are obviously 00:39:58.900 --> 00:40:01.179 things you can do to like weaken the other sort 00:40:01.179 --> 00:40:03.800 of Pokemon which aren't just hitting it It's 00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.099 like it's more fun to just hit it with the attack. 00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:10.119 I Don't want to drop its special defense. No. 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:12.960 No, I want to see the big numbers. Yeah, they 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.860 make my brain happy. Yeah So we've talked definitely 00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:23.000 about certainly on the big three Skyrim definitely 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.780 being one of them because I remember your presentations 00:40:25.780 --> 00:40:27.559 to Banger and it was really insightful because 00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:29.599 I have no clue about Skyrim, so it was lovely 00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:31.599 learning about the Draugr and the undead and 00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:36.460 the zombies there. Certainly I think in terms 00:40:36.460 --> 00:40:38.800 of games, certainly from the ones that I'm able 00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.659 to access thanks to my brother's extensive Steam 00:40:41.659 --> 00:40:44.659 library, a lot of them seem to be touching more 00:40:44.659 --> 00:40:47.840 the mythological side than the historical, which 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:50.179 I think just... works quite well for creative 00:40:50.179 --> 00:40:52.119 purposes because then they don't have people 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:54.099 email them saying no you've got the mooring helmet 00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:56.639 on helmets and they're doing that wrong. I mean 00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.440 that's the one bug there I have with Assassin's 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.639 Creed Valhalla that you where you mine ore is 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.329 by hitting a piece of ore with your weapon. which 00:41:04.329 --> 00:41:06.789 defeats the purpose because in reality you would 00:41:06.789 --> 00:41:08.610 break the weapon and you wouldn't get any ore 00:41:08.610 --> 00:41:11.130 to make a new one. And I think personally it 00:41:11.130 --> 00:41:13.090 almost like it skips over the fact that there 00:41:13.090 --> 00:41:15.789 must have been a mining industry of some type 00:41:15.789 --> 00:41:20.130 around in reality in that time to enable all 00:41:20.130 --> 00:41:22.650 these weapons and jewelry and stuff to be made, 00:41:22.730 --> 00:41:24.349 otherwise where are people getting the metal 00:41:24.349 --> 00:41:29.530 from? Yeah, it did not faithfully represent bog 00:41:29.530 --> 00:41:35.420 iron, the importance of bog iron. I think someone 00:41:35.420 --> 00:41:37.980 needs to invent a Viking mining game, or just 00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:39.960 a historical mining game, and see how far in 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.699 history you can take your mine. I was going to 00:41:43.699 --> 00:41:47.099 say, I haven't played it, but I think Valheim, 00:41:47.219 --> 00:41:49.780 although it's supposed to be kind of like that 00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:53.980 more kind of Viking sim kind of game than some 00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:56.280 of the others. That was the impression I got 00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.880 from Valheim. Yeah, I've actually played a lot 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.860 of Falheim. It was a perfect storm to come out 00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:06.460 in March of 2021, I think, like middle of COVID, 00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:08.579 basically. And my friends and I got really into 00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:11.780 it. And the interesting thing is to look at it 00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:14.820 as a game, a Viking game produced in the Viking 00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:18.360 boom period that we're in now, but by a Swedish 00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:22.420 game studio. And you can really tell I did like 00:42:22.420 --> 00:42:27.019 a term paper, so it's not. Don't steal my idea. 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.300 No, that's fine. But looking at actually the 00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:32.800 landscape archaeology in the game, because it 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:35.980 has every game from everywhere. Oh, the Vikings 00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:38.460 had rune stones. Everybody knows that. But not 00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:41.599 everybody knows that the Vikings also lived alongside 00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:47.940 Neolithic dolmens, stone boat settings like in 00:42:47.940 --> 00:42:52.880 Gotland, and several other kind of historical 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:55.480 grave types that predate the Viking age, but 00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:57.679 we're still there in the landscape. So you could 00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.380 really tell that these, I mean, these are southern 00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:03.800 Swedes from Skovta, so they knew what the landscape 00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:04.900 looked like. They're like, well, we don't have 00:43:04.900 --> 00:43:07.260 to make up a Viking landscape. They put some 00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:09.519 fantasy elements in the game, but they live in 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:14.280 the Viking landscape, technically. But yeah, 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:16.119 the interesting thing about that game is there 00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:19.539 is like a tech development where you start with 00:43:19.539 --> 00:43:22.519 stone and wood and move through different types 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:25.590 of material. And when you find iron, it's in 00:43:25.590 --> 00:43:31.570 bogs. But only in crypts full of draugr. Of course. 00:43:32.150 --> 00:43:34.510 You have to find your iron. Yeah, you do have 00:43:34.510 --> 00:43:39.329 to work for it. It takes a long time. I remember 00:43:39.329 --> 00:43:42.809 playing a game that came out that hasn't done 00:43:42.809 --> 00:43:45.690 as well. And for life, I don't know what it's 00:43:45.690 --> 00:43:49.920 called. but I only came across it because one 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:51.980 of my favorite historical fiction writers Giles 00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:53.800 Christian, and we all touch on him again because 00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.800 he's doing work with a much better game now, 00:43:57.340 --> 00:44:00.519 that was a survival -esque game set in kind of 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:03.820 a very North -esque historical world, but it 00:44:03.820 --> 00:44:07.300 was one of those deep mind farming type survival 00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:09.900 games where you have to get the plants and get 00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:12.079 the fibers to make the cloth to make your clothes, 00:44:12.139 --> 00:44:13.800 if you don't do it quick enough night falls and 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.480 you get too cold and you freeze to death. I learned 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:21.179 that quick, as well as starvation and food and 00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:25.500 thirst and running into random bears. But it 00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:31.019 was very basic in its animation style. It wasn't 00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:34.599 as basic as kind of like Minecraft, but it didn't 00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:39.980 have like a smooth CGI look. It was tricky to 00:44:39.980 --> 00:44:41.960 survive in. I didn't get very far with it. And 00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:43.719 even though I know there was a whole island to 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:47.130 explore, including Graves with Jarger and I just, 00:44:47.230 --> 00:44:49.250 I never got the far, I didn't get enough clothing 00:44:49.250 --> 00:44:51.110 together to get a full set of armour together. 00:44:51.449 --> 00:44:55.210 It was, I kept thinking I'm constantly just dying 00:44:55.210 --> 00:44:58.570 eventually. I get a little bit longer but it 00:44:58.570 --> 00:45:00.650 was just never good. But he is now working on 00:45:00.650 --> 00:45:03.250 a much better game with a simple title, oh well 00:45:03.250 --> 00:45:04.949 I say simple title. They've announced the full 00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:07.030 title now because the teaser trailer that's officially 00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:12.199 out there is called Norse. Oath of Blood and 00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.139 thankfully he's the lead writer on the whole 00:45:14.139 --> 00:45:15.920 narrative and character of it and he's doing 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.219 wonders and having kind of like read the blurb 00:45:18.219 --> 00:45:21.480 of it it has such strong echoes for his Sigurd 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.579 the Lucky historical fiction series starting 00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:27.119 with God of Vengeance which I highly recommend 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.260 everyone read before they go playing off because 00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:34.300 it's got strong echoes of it but that looks more 00:45:34.300 --> 00:45:36.699 historically accurate to a degree possibly more 00:45:36.699 --> 00:45:39.239 than Assassin's Creed Valhalla it's a turn -based 00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:42.420 combat game when there is combat by thinking 00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:44.440 there is some kind of, not necessarily role play, 00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:47.480 but certainly dialogue options in it. We don't 00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:49.280 know much more this than the early development 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.159 phase, and they are actually putting a call out 00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.440 for players to come and test it. Unfortunately 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.440 I don't have the time, otherwise I would. Plus 00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.900 they kind of ask for your CV on other turn -based 00:45:59.900 --> 00:46:01.599 games, and I really struggle to think of what 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:03.579 turn -based games I've played recently, if at 00:46:03.579 --> 00:46:07.989 all. It's a computer game. But that's North, 00:46:07.989 --> 00:46:10.010 and that's hopefully coming out later this year 00:46:10.010 --> 00:46:12.409 at some point. They haven't set a date on it 00:46:12.409 --> 00:46:15.610 yet, they're just saying 2025 at some point. 00:46:16.449 --> 00:46:19.250 But I'm really looking forward to that because 00:46:19.250 --> 00:46:20.769 I've seen some of the motion capture they've 00:46:20.769 --> 00:46:24.690 done behind the scenes and plus I like that. 00:46:25.730 --> 00:46:30.070 I'm kind of biased in all regards. Plus it's 00:46:30.070 --> 00:46:31.889 spiking so it's going to get my money at some 00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:35.190 point. But some other games that I've played 00:46:35.190 --> 00:46:39.070 with, which one should I think of? Oh, the one 00:46:39.070 --> 00:46:41.130 that I've been playing recently, and I mentioned 00:46:41.130 --> 00:46:43.389 just before we launched fully into this episode, 00:46:43.929 --> 00:46:48.349 is called Atone, Heart of the Elder Tree. It's 00:46:48.349 --> 00:46:51.309 again doubling with the North Mist. It's very 00:46:51.309 --> 00:46:54.369 artistic and linear and blocking style. The music 00:46:54.369 --> 00:46:57.210 is stunning. It just whistles me away every time. 00:46:57.829 --> 00:47:00.250 But interestingly, they've done something really, 00:47:00.329 --> 00:47:03.480 I want to call it odd. with the way they're presenting 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:05.679 the Norse myths, or at least the gods in some 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:10.440 aspects, in that their world is where the gods 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:12.519 were there and then they left because humanity 00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:14.699 did something wrong and they keep calling it 00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:17.570 the sin. humanity's sin. I'm like sin is such 00:47:17.570 --> 00:47:20.230 a Christian word and it feels wrong to put it 00:47:20.230 --> 00:47:23.250 with with these gods in it. But I will say this 00:47:23.250 --> 00:47:25.630 that in my last tattoo I did come across a vulva 00:47:25.630 --> 00:47:27.409 which always makes me happy because it's nice 00:47:27.409 --> 00:47:30.650 to see kind of like either shield maidens or 00:47:30.650 --> 00:47:32.889 sea wrestlers usually. They're the two common 00:47:32.889 --> 00:47:36.250 female types and of course shield maidens are 00:47:36.250 --> 00:47:37.889 popping up all over the place or at least having 00:47:37.889 --> 00:47:40.030 female characters that can do just as much damage 00:47:40.030 --> 00:47:42.030 as the boys and they're not just screaming in 00:47:42.030 --> 00:47:44.030 the background running around, or having crying 00:47:44.030 --> 00:47:49.469 babies and whatnot. But that's an interesting 00:47:49.469 --> 00:47:50.949 game, not just because of the way they're presented 00:47:50.949 --> 00:47:54.050 at North Gods, but it's a role play, kind of 00:47:54.050 --> 00:47:57.369 like very light role play, in that you do get 00:47:57.369 --> 00:47:59.070 options, but you don't really get told if it's 00:47:59.070 --> 00:48:00.449 a bad choice or a good choice. You don't get 00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:02.269 to see the effects, like of course, like in Dragon 00:48:02.269 --> 00:48:03.869 Age, for example, you can say so -and -so just 00:48:03.869 --> 00:48:06.530 approves, so -and -so highly approves, kind of 00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:08.070 get friendship points or you lose friendship 00:48:08.070 --> 00:48:10.780 points. But once you've made that choice, it's 00:48:10.780 --> 00:48:14.860 done. That's it. But the combat in it isn't typical 00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:16.760 running around with a sword, a shield, or an 00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.059 axe, or a spear, or even a bow and arrow. It's 00:48:20.059 --> 00:48:26.119 based on pressing numbers on your keyboard. I 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:27.800 was going to say keypad then. That was the wrong 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:31.860 word entirely. Set to a beat and a rhythm. Because 00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:34.739 it's a music -based combat. And so you have to 00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:36.400 spend a lot of attention trying to get the right 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:38.929 rhythm right in order to. fill up this meter 00:48:38.929 --> 00:48:41.010 and then something happens although you're usually 00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:43.030 still focusing on the meter filling up again 00:48:43.030 --> 00:48:44.969 so you don't actually see the action when it 00:48:44.969 --> 00:48:47.750 happens because it's all happening there on screen 00:48:47.750 --> 00:48:50.170 but it's really well done and I remember following 00:48:50.170 --> 00:48:52.869 it when it first came out but when it first went 00:48:52.869 --> 00:48:55.690 to Apple Arcade originally and only in the last 00:48:55.690 --> 00:48:57.570 year or two has it finally made it onto Steam 00:48:57.570 --> 00:49:00.269 and I have a game map so I can play it but I'm 00:49:00.269 --> 00:49:03.150 looking forward to seeing where that goes because 00:49:03.150 --> 00:49:05.510 there's something to do with magic and the gods 00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:08.860 disappearing and how This person needs to work 00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:12.739 out why people keep turning blue and going crazy 00:49:12.739 --> 00:49:15.280 and then killing each other. That's as far as 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:17.800 I've got, so I can't give any more spoilers besides 00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:20.960 that. Oh, there is a talking frog, which I find 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:24.019 really amusing. And the character quite rightly 00:49:24.019 --> 00:49:25.820 says, like, why are you talking frog? Why are 00:49:25.820 --> 00:49:28.420 you talking to me? What's going on? What is this 00:49:28.420 --> 00:49:30.699 madness? I'm quite right. I would say the same 00:49:30.699 --> 00:49:36.320 thing if I met a talking frog. But in terms of, 00:49:36.340 --> 00:49:38.239 are there any other computer games that you two 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:41.539 would recommend or can think of in terms of Vikings 00:49:41.539 --> 00:49:46.119 or representations or experience? I mean, one 00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:49.440 sort of small independent one that I've been 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.940 playing recently, which is kind of a bit atypical 00:49:52.940 --> 00:49:55.139 in the Viking space is something called the Frost 00:49:55.139 --> 00:49:57.539 Room. And it's basically a point and click murder 00:49:57.539 --> 00:50:02.130 mystery. So you arrive on an island. everyone's 00:50:02.130 --> 00:50:05.349 dead, the gods seem to be involved, like curses 00:50:05.349 --> 00:50:08.309 seem to be involved, and you just sort of work 00:50:08.309 --> 00:50:11.150 out what's happened with some help from the gods 00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:13.309 here and there, and things like that. There's 00:50:13.309 --> 00:50:16.730 no real dialogue, it's sort of very low key, 00:50:16.750 --> 00:50:19.050 but it's been quite an interesting sort of short 00:50:19.050 --> 00:50:21.889 story, and I think it's an interesting, I guess, 00:50:22.050 --> 00:50:25.110 subversion to all Viking sort of media has to 00:50:25.110 --> 00:50:28.750 be violent. So it's just a fun little murder 00:50:28.750 --> 00:50:32.880 mystery on the island. Good. I think that is 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.280 also on my wish list. I have actually got it. 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:38.219 I just haven't played it yet. Because I thought 00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:39.940 that seemed really, really interesting. Yeah, 00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.760 the art's really beautiful as well. So it's very, 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:46.460 very well done and just small and on the periphery 00:50:46.460 --> 00:50:51.420 of the Viking game world. Yeah. Yeah, I was toying 00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:55.860 with creating some kind of master list of Viking 00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:58.980 games, especially using Steam as a research platform 00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:01.159 because it's where most people publish everything. 00:51:02.099 --> 00:51:04.599 And I quickly found that searching either term 00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:09.679 or Viking comes up with hundreds. Oh, like released 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.019 and upcoming and early access titles. But I did 00:51:14.019 --> 00:51:15.579 start making the list and the Frost Room was 00:51:15.579 --> 00:51:21.659 one of the ones that I logged on there. One that 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:25.699 I keep meaning to play because the good friend 00:51:25.699 --> 00:51:31.539 of mine, who also has a degree, has a PhD in 00:51:31.539 --> 00:51:35.400 Norse, Old Norse stuff, in our wheelhouse is 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.260 the Banner Saga trilogy. Comes highly recommended 00:51:38.260 --> 00:51:43.179 from her. And I've read about it, just to kind 00:51:43.179 --> 00:51:46.019 of get the gist of what it's about. And it's 00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:49.199 sort of like a rewritten, you know, kind of fantasy 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:54.090 blend that's mostly Norse flavored. about, you 00:51:54.090 --> 00:51:57.469 know, like an encroaching, you know, corrupting 00:51:57.469 --> 00:52:01.909 forest and different clans of sort of, you know, 00:52:02.130 --> 00:52:06.269 Norse inspired beings have to, humans and these 00:52:06.269 --> 00:52:08.929 sort of yet -not type of beings have to band 00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:12.929 together to defend themselves from this sort 00:52:12.929 --> 00:52:19.510 of ontological, you know, void enemy. And it's 00:52:19.510 --> 00:52:22.949 also like the Frostrun has this beautiful the 00:52:22.949 --> 00:52:29.269 hand -painted artwork style. I think I tried 00:52:29.269 --> 00:52:32.050 it once and I didn't get very far because there's 00:52:32.050 --> 00:52:34.750 a little combat you experience right in the beginning 00:52:34.750 --> 00:52:38.010 and I don't think I survived it. I'll just put 00:52:38.010 --> 00:52:39.650 this one to the side for a bit, I'll come back 00:52:39.650 --> 00:52:46.030 to it later. It's like a tactical RPG I think 00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:48.760 so you have to be... turn -based to a degree 00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.360 I think it was it was a long time ago I think 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:52.940 I think it was back before the daughter was even 00:52:52.940 --> 00:52:55.139 born which at least four years ago. I've got 00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.480 a very good soundtrack too I haven't played it 00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:01.820 but it's on all my like North themed takes and 00:53:01.820 --> 00:53:06.460 just like Banizag on there. There's another game 00:53:06.460 --> 00:53:09.780 on my wish list which is called Dead in Binland. 00:53:14.429 --> 00:53:16.829 It's another mystery game, it might be up your 00:53:16.829 --> 00:53:19.550 street Edmund if you like fostering, because 00:53:19.550 --> 00:53:22.170 that's purely about this tripwrecked family, 00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:25.630 on been and survival and strategy in terms of 00:53:25.630 --> 00:53:29.469 choices and resources. There is some combat because 00:53:29.469 --> 00:53:31.510 as you explore you come across other characters 00:53:31.510 --> 00:53:33.679 and they're of course not always friendly. but 00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:35.900 there's some magic and mystery involved as well 00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:37.440 from what I've seen at the trial and I keep thinking 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.380 oh that would be really interesting because of 00:53:39.380 --> 00:53:41.840 course not many people think of Vikings then 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:43.699 put the word Finland together just like not many 00:53:43.699 --> 00:53:45.360 people think of Vikings but the word Iceland 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.940 together but then they kind of the spread of 00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:50.179 Vikings and also in reality is quite much further 00:53:50.179 --> 00:53:52.199 than just kind of like Scandinavia and England. 00:53:53.259 --> 00:53:55.960 most people forget about Scotland and the Picts 00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:57.960 and the Hebrides and the Shetlands because Ireland 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.039 and the Isle of Man, I keep saying I'd love to 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.579 go world tour and join all the dots together 00:54:02.579 --> 00:54:04.800 and go to where all the Vikings have been because 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:06.480 it would cover at least half the world and all 00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:10.699 the way across to the east. But yes, Dedimvidland 00:54:10.699 --> 00:54:13.519 looks like an interesting one and in terms of 00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:15.679 you mentioning of course the Jottons in the Banner 00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:21.539 saga, giants are such a common Viking character 00:54:21.539 --> 00:54:23.559 type that's come across in a lot of any Viking 00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:25.900 games. I know another one on my wishlist is simply 00:54:25.900 --> 00:54:28.800 called Jotun and it involves a woman who couldn't 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:30.820 get into Valhalla and she has to go around killing 00:54:30.820 --> 00:54:33.539 all the giants. And thanks to my brother because 00:54:33.539 --> 00:54:35.940 I can see what games he's been playing because 00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:38.920 we share the Steam library together. I know he's 00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:41.039 just been playing, I think recently in fact, 00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:44.380 another game that's come out literally fresh 00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:48.360 this year I think called Svartelheim. battle 00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:50.400 against hell or hell's army or something like 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.619 that and it's just where you go into the dwarven 00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:55.360 realm and kill lots of hellish things and get 00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:57.900 godly powers and they have some class types they 00:54:57.900 --> 00:55:03.599 have berserker they have crs they have some kind 00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:05.619 of ranger type i can't remember the name of it 00:55:05.619 --> 00:55:08.760 and they have a flame daughter which is where 00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:13.449 you kind of like you're half torch, human torch, 00:55:13.730 --> 00:55:16.989 but not that kind of thing. Just half microinlarger 00:55:16.989 --> 00:55:19.670 and five, let's do half the flesh. So sensing 00:55:19.670 --> 00:55:22.510 that, that's the kind of female. fighter type 00:55:22.510 --> 00:55:24.530 that they've given compared to the ranger which 00:55:24.530 --> 00:55:27.570 is a male and the berserker which is also a male 00:55:27.570 --> 00:55:30.150 type um character but that i've seen kind of 00:55:30.150 --> 00:55:31.849 like the trailer for that before this episode 00:55:31.849 --> 00:55:33.989 was recorded i thought no that's not there's 00:55:33.989 --> 00:55:36.050 too many waves of enemies i don't like being 00:55:36.050 --> 00:55:42.030 swamped it just takes more than one and then 00:55:42.030 --> 00:55:44.050 i can't cope because i can't block and parry 00:55:44.050 --> 00:55:48.150 and dodge so i don't think i'd survive that game 00:55:48.150 --> 00:55:50.440 but it's interesting it's interesting how kind 00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:52.840 of like across North realms have been used a 00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:56.519 lot in in games. It does Sparkleheim and Valheim 00:55:56.519 --> 00:56:00.780 and the Heim word obviously comes up a lot in 00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:05.219 various places. Can I just check my wish list 00:56:05.219 --> 00:56:07.440 on my phone? Yeah I was thinking as well just 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:09.500 thinking of I guess sequels that have come out 00:56:09.500 --> 00:56:13.079 recently. Hellblade, Senua's sacrifice and that 00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:16.639 whole duo is a really interesting one. Given 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:19.079 that it's again one of those sort of Norse flavored 00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:21.900 games, and I remember the first one They really 00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:24.440 go ham into kind of like the experience of the 00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:26.840 game in terms of like the sound design And they 00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:28.760 recommend you play with headphones and it got 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:30.599 to a point where it was just so intense I had 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:31.679 to hit the headphones off because I was just 00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.099 like no, I can't do I can't do this this sort 00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:39.800 of Shamanistic ecstatic trance style soundscape 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.199 and it's it's really intense. It's really cool 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:43.559 and really well done It's one of those things 00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:45.780 that you have to be in the right mindset for 00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:47.559 but it's really interesting how they played with 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:51.900 that kind of mythology and sort of ambient space 00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:55.159 that we associate with sort of vulva and cirrhosis. 00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:59.340 I remember reading lots when that came out because 00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:01.920 it got such attention because of its aspect of 00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:03.739 mental health and in particular schizophrenia 00:57:03.739 --> 00:57:06.099 and how they actually got like a whole panel 00:57:06.099 --> 00:57:08.059 of people who have the condition to really make 00:57:08.059 --> 00:57:10.860 it realistic and I remember seeing again by my 00:57:10.860 --> 00:57:13.130 brother play it for a short while I thought I 00:57:13.130 --> 00:57:15.010 could I could probably do the puzzles but the 00:57:15.010 --> 00:57:17.010 combat I'm like, I remember seeing him face off 00:57:17.010 --> 00:57:20.429 against Some what I think was meant to be representation 00:57:20.429 --> 00:57:22.349 of the goddess hell But she was bald and looks 00:57:22.349 --> 00:57:25.309 more like a giant undead young woman than anything. 00:57:25.409 --> 00:57:27.849 I thought no I can't I can't dodge that quick. 00:57:27.849 --> 00:57:31.190 I can't I won't get to the end. I'll just have 00:57:31.190 --> 00:57:33.090 to find all the cinematic cinematic bits on YouTube 00:57:33.090 --> 00:57:35.929 and watch it. Let's show it that way. And that's 00:57:35.929 --> 00:57:39.630 when Hell's Blade 2 came out. That was set in 00:57:39.630 --> 00:57:43.389 Iceland. I thought ooh Iceland again an overlooked 00:57:43.389 --> 00:57:47.289 source of Norse history and it just reaps well 00:57:47.289 --> 00:57:50.610 it oozes mythology in the sense of the kind of 00:57:50.610 --> 00:57:53.630 like the volcanoes and they even have like the 00:57:53.630 --> 00:57:55.730 folklore of Icelandic fairies and whatnot and 00:57:55.730 --> 00:57:58.670 they just yeah I would think if I was brave enough 00:57:58.670 --> 00:58:01.389 I could play it but I don't know if I could especially 00:58:01.389 --> 00:58:03.050 that you mentioned about the headphones and the 00:58:03.050 --> 00:58:06.530 sound and the effect I get scared easily isn't 00:58:06.530 --> 00:58:12.349 it Yeah, I got both of those games, the first 00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:15.170 one in the sequel on sale recently, so they're 00:58:15.170 --> 00:58:18.050 on my very soon -to -be -played list because 00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:20.230 I know they're quite important. But it's very 00:58:20.230 --> 00:58:22.550 amusing to me that these very serious games that 00:58:22.550 --> 00:58:24.929 tackle a very serious subject are by the same 00:58:24.929 --> 00:58:26.869 studio that made Devil May Cry, which is a very 00:58:26.869 --> 00:58:30.469 serious series of games. So they're like, see, 00:58:30.469 --> 00:58:33.559 we can do this. That kind of makes sense. There 00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:35.659 are moments of the first Hellblade game where 00:58:35.659 --> 00:58:38.039 I'm like, oh, OK, that makes sense that Devil 00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:41.340 May Cry is the legacy there. OK, I'll look forward 00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:47.519 to trying to find those moments. We hope you 00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:51.119 have enjoyed the first part of this episode on 00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:54.400 Norse games and Vikings in games with special 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:58.360 guests Luca Pinaro and Emma Thompson. Please 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.659 look for part two of this conversation. and we 00:59:01.659 --> 00:59:05.199 hope you can rejoin us in Valhalla soon. Thank 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:06.760 you for watching and listening.