Dear listeners and dear viewers, during the making
of this next episode there was an unfortunate
technical glitch of speaker echo where my input
on my guest's device kept picking up on their
mic and then playing back into my device and
thus when you hear me react or do hedgy sounds
like mmm and ah and I see and little laughs,
you will hear that sound twice within a second
of the original sound being played. I couldn't
quite edit the small ones out in that case because
quite often they're so closely interlinked with
responses from my guests. However, my own statements
and descriptions and questions, introduction
and closing statements, I have been able to re
-record and I have replaced, swapped around the
re -recordings to the originals in this full
edited version. So although a lot of the echoing
has been replaced, you will still hear some through
most of the just general human and genuine reaction
to the guests. I do hope you enjoyed this episode
regardless of the errors. It was unfortunately
seen on my part and I have learnt my lesson.
But please do listen, please do watch and enjoy.
Thank you for watching and listening wherever
you are. and welcome to the second episode in
my mini series, The Legends of Yorvik, where
I get to meet and chat to the many creatives
and talented folk who put on events, displays,
whole talks and theatre shows and lots more for
the Yorvik Biking Festival. Inspired by so many
great experiences at the Yorvik Biking Festival
this year, I'm delighted to say I'm welcoming
not one but two members of the Time Will Tell
Theatre Company, Cathy and Simon. Would you like
to introduce yourselves? Hello, my name is Cathy
and I'm one half of Time Will Tell and we've
been going 13 years and we're a theatre company.
This year was our second year at Yorvik. My role,
I suppose, is logistics and administration and
sourcing all the props and costumes and things
like that. But the writing is this gentleman
here. Hello, I'm Simon, Simon Kirk, and yeah,
I'm the other half of the global empire that
is Simon Tell Theatre. It's just the two of us.
Thank you. I'm so glad you could join me on our
podcast today. Simon Tell Theatre have been performing
lots of things around the UK to do with lots
of different areas of history, particularly British
history. and this year and as well last year
you performed the finale show for the Yorby Biking
Festival. Last year was all about Yigdrasil and
this year was a dramatization of a very Old Norse
story, The Cursed Sword, Tf 'ing. My first question
is what inspired or persuaded you to pick this
particular Old Norse story of a cursed sword
and its bloodshed? That's actually a really,
really easy question to answer. And I'd love
to say that we've studied for many, many years,
and this is something that we've always wanted
to do. They tell us what they want us to do.
Interesting. So this year, they said they wanted
us to focus on the story of the entire thing.
And last year, they said we wanted to do something
about Yggdrasil. In a way, it's really, really
great when the client says this is what we want.
It's actually a lot easier than you having to
sort of go away and go, well, because obviously
the universe of Norse mythology is so huge. There
are so many stories. So I think it fits in with
other stuff that they do at the festival. So
I guess that was part of it. Interesting. I never
actually considered whether Jorvik gave you much
direction. In which case did you then have to
do a lot of reading and research about the curse
or tear thing? Well again I'd love to say that
my background is in osmothology but if I did
I'd be lying. One of the things about our company
is that we cover everything from the stone age
through to the 1960s and all points in between.
Jorvik has become a particular favourite of us.
We've done Viking events before we've done Grimsby
Falfest where we told the story of Havelock the
Dane. So it's got an alien area to us. I've read
as much as I could, which is always a pleasure
to me. I love reading about history and theatre
since I was about five or six years old. So The
first thing I did was I read all the different
versions of the story that I could find, little
bits that go off it. And essentially what you're
looking for is we have certain parameters that
exist because of the nature of the work. So it
has to last for an hour. We know how many actors
we're allowed. and we know the space that we're
going to perform in. So taking in those parameters,
I then look at the story and go, what can I do
with this? And the difficulty with the story,
it's not a difficulty, it's interesting. I think
bearing in mind that these stories are all designed
to be told by somebody live to a audience who
might be familiar with bits of it, is there's
a lot of repetition. which is great if you're
telling a story in a mead hall, not so great
if you're doing a piece of theater. So the story
of the Cursed Sword, as you know, is a story
of a king who's out hunting one day and nothing
much is going on. He spots a couple of dwarves
and he manages to get between them and their
home, basically traps them. This is the only
way you can get back. to your home is if you
make me a sword and they they have to agree so
they make him a sword and he sort of says this
is what I want the sword to be this is what I
want the sword to be like and they go yeah yeah
we can do that and at the same time they also
put a curse on the sword saying this is what
it's going to really do and from that you kind
of that's where the story sort of begins so from
that it then goes through a series of three Curses,
which is the the usual number in most most stories
question. How are you going to do that? How are
you going to make each of these very violent
stories just a little bit different from the
last violent story? I think this year helped
because we'd already established some of those
parameters. We already knew that they liked to
have eight actors, that eight actors was the
ideal number for that space. We knew the space
and what it was like to work in it. And it also
helped because the lighting company that they
use and the pyrotechnics that they use, all of
that kind of stuff, the sound, they're phenomenal.
And so this was our second time of working with
them. So last year we were a little bit more
It was newer. We'd not done it before. We didn't
know whether it would work. And so this year,
it was easier. Because it is a challenging story
in that it's mostly just fighting. And an element
of that is after the second, you're all a bit
like, OK, do we have to go through this again?
So I'm bringing in all those elements that you
mentioned, the humanity of it. So Simon has found
lots of different bits that you've glued onto
it. um to make it the story arc there yeah what
i always look for with something that lasts for
an hour it's outdoors you don't know what the
weather's going to do yeah yeah so you're trying
to hold onto people's attention so the first
thing i do is i break it down into sections and
i like each each section to end with a phrase
basically the phrase was and so it goes And I
love that because that's what happens in stories.
It's just it's a story and so it goes it's you
know as it is written or whatever um the other
thing that um about making it episodic is you
want to connect it and I I've read about when
we were doing Yggdrasil I'd featured the Norns
in that because they they nourish they nourish
Yggdrasil is one of the things they do but I
thought It would be really good to have them
as the kind of connecting theme, that every time
this curse does what it's supposed to do, the
Norns can move out and take over. The Norns are
fascinating. They're so, as characters, they're
so interesting. Also, in a story that's going
to be very, very boys hitting each other, it's
great to have something that's more female -focused.
I really like the idea of the the norms because
they said we we said at the beginning we set
the whole thing up and we say um your your fate's
predestined the norms know it when you're born
at the moment you scream when you're born the
norms are there and they have a thread and that
thread's cut to uh that thread is going to run
to a certain length and when it's cut that's
it game over And it's so the norms know your
fate, but you decide what happens within that
because the story of time thing or till thing
is a story of people making choices. Is that
you you you if you're given and it's that choice
really that at the moment is incredibly resonant.
If you were given absolute power. to do whatever
you wanted to do with the threat of this thing
that can destroy or kill anything. How would
you use it? What would you do? Thank you. That's
a really good point about using the norms to
give a female voice to the performance. I for
one certainly think that a lot of the female
characters of the mythology in the pantheon,
not just the goddesses but kind of the giants,
the vulva, the norns themselves, we know names
and pieces but there's so much more to them that
we don't know. They lack a certain volume of
definition compared to the male characters and
that could be just because historically these
stories were stories for a long long long time
and they were written centuries after Christianisation,
presented a taboo, almost like a barrier between
what was known and what is known. And through
the male gaze and the acts of male scribes, a
lot of the female voice representation has been
lost. And for those who are viewing this on YouTube
and listening on Spotify and wherever online,
Just to help you understand the challenge that
this wonderful theatre company faced, they performed
in a circular piece of land. I'm not going to
say meters how long because I can never get it
right. But if you look on Google Maps, it's right
in front of the Yorkshire Castle Museum in the
centre of York and there is a tree in the middle.
And it's also got some other buildings around
it, including Clever's Tower directly behind
it and the car park and the main road. So it
is a very congested performance space, but it
was wonderfully done. They did an amazing, almost
like triangular performance zones. There were
three zones all around the circle where something
was going on. And because they didn't put up
anything around the tree, people could see straight
across the circle and always see through it.
And it was wonderfully done. And the noise themselves,
I was very impressed with how They were costumed,
they were dressed, because quite often when you
read about the Norns, you read about them as
women and being of particular ages. There was
verandah, schooled and erred, path, present and
future, usually old, middle -aged and young.
But these Norns, these were dramatically simplified.
They were masked and, or not quite, they were
mystically robed. And they used staves or staffs
in a very dramatic almost magical manner and
I really respected that. I really respected that
interpretation of them. It gave them that agelessness
because they are a being above and beyond the
gods, above and beyond the giants. They were
there from the beginning and they will be there
at the end because they know and weave the end
of all things effectively and I really really
like that. It certainly brings a point, because
Cathy, how did it go with costuming? Because
I as an audience member, because there was no
stage, there was no screen, the actors that you
had involved had to get changed into their costumes
now, but it's not fully undressed and just kind
of like tops off and tops on, or robes on, cloaks
on, cloaks off, that kind of thing. Right around
the base of this tree, that was their changing
area. So how did that come about in planning
and operation. Yes we um I do bring many because
we don't have a huge there's not a huge budget
for us to have some productions might have weeks
of rehearsal we have the fighters get to fight
um for a couple of days of rehearsals and and
that's choreographed specifically for each show
um but we only get a day the day before so I
bring loads of options just in case because they
do need to be able to get in and sometimes we're
like we might have a vision and we like that
idea and we will go we've got an amazing costume
hire place in Suffolk I'm East Anglia well we're
both East Anglia based but the stores in Norfolk
but this costume place in Suffolk is phenomenal
and she takes in lots of different she makes
her own but she also takes in lots of different
like past productions films and things so she
has a huge tool, doesn't she? And we go along
and you have ideas of what you want the characters
to look like, and then we have a look about the
logistics of whether they'll be able to get in
and out of them quick enough. And we had a long
talk about hiding that, but as soon as you build
a structure in that space, then someone can't
see. So you need to be able to keep it open.
Because we thought about, you know, we have thought,
lots of people said to us, why didn't you screen
that off? Why didn't you build somewhere where
they could change without being watched? And
that that is someone then somewhere I can't see.
And and I personally, as an audience member,
would have quite what, you know, to be able to
give to see that as well. I mean, the idea, obviously,
is that the drama detracts so you don't look
at it. Yeah. it is nice or nice to acknowledge
it and once you've seen it happen once then you
just ignore it anyway we're very good at being
selective about what we do and don't see um uh
but yes i mean that that those quick changes
would have happened even if they'd happened out
of sight so it's a kind of way of acknowledging
that uh it's a skill and there are many characters
involved um a space again away from us. It's
quite a challenge. And we also mustn't forget
the reenactment groups that are involved. It's
just the space is so big. It does work with eight,
but it calls for more in the cast. And we're
really fortunate that the reenactment group were
happy to come along, be directed. They actually
really enjoyed it. They do enjoy it. And so we
don't have a huge amount of time to rehearse
with them either. But they, you know, they're
sitting around the edges and then choreographing
them coming in and them coming into the drama
and then fading out again. We're really fortunate
to work with such great groups that are so keen
to support us in creating the piece. So, yeah.
So we had two groups that worked with us. Yourfus
Hall, who we met last year, who worked with us
last year, who are just brilliant. They would
do anything. Last year they did anything in the
rain. And Reggie Anglorum, who are a group that
we've had the privilege of working with on a
number of occasions. They are brilliant as well.
I'm sure there are probably some people in there
from other groups as well. The space because
it's not quite circular that they call it in
York. They call it the York eye So last year
when we did it's perfect It's a play about a
tree. There's a tree in the middle and everything
focuses so I think focuses back inwards I decided
very early on that The staging that we could
use, again, has to fall into certain parameters.
It can't be fixed because they use the ice space
for other things, especially in the Saturday
afternoon. There's Viking games and there's a
sort of Viking backer there. So we can't, we
don't have access to it. Plus we are next to
York County Court or City Court, which is in
use Thursday and Friday. So we can't. do anything
that might impinge on the wheels of justice.
So really we only, we get very limited time.
So my idea was to have three drum risers positioned
like the ends of the props on a propeller. That
gives you a little bit of elevation. And if you
position them correctly, it means that you could
always see something going on, just raised up.
Thank you that's a really good explanation and
a very valid point about sight of line because
it's a circular performance area the audience
is therefore gathered in a large circle and so
for it makes sense to enable everyone to see
from whatever side you're on and I certainly
as a member of the audience I noticed it but
then I didn't notice it because the way you stage
the drama in three zones around the circle around
the tree was very easily distraction. And because
you had people moving from point to point as
well, your eyes would never always know what
they're doing now. But I did notice, of course,
like everyone else did, when the lights go down
at the end of each dramatic arc. So how did everyone
adapt or learn how to not only make their way
to the tree in complete darkness, but then get
changed into the right costume in the complete
darkness? The changing in darkness the We finished
each section with a blackout which essentially
just gave the access time to run back Change
and then we'd start up again the other thing
is that the whole thing is driven by a narrated
soundscape so we I Write the script We record
the narration and our composer, Johnny Dyer,
then adds in music and sound effects. He's absolutely
brilliant. We collaborated with him on half a
dozen projects at least, and he's just fantastic.
He really gets what we're trying to do. With
that, and with the fantastic work by the lighting
company, Fantastic Fireworks, who do the pyros,
who bring in a lighting company. All of those
aspects together make it, I guess what we're
trying to do is we say at the beginning, come
into the realm of myth. That's what we say, this
is what this world is like. It's a bit crazy.
There's lots of conflict. Nothing is what it
seems. Enjoy. And that's where the story sort
of starts. I have to say, as an audience member,
that the music from Johnny Dyer was phenomenal.
It really set the atmosphere, the environment,
the vibe, the mood, the tone. Everyone was like,
oh, this is different. We're not in a normal
environment now. This is very, very different.
And of course, we could see a few people out
in the area where they were performing. I didn't
know who they were going to be, what they were
going to do. And then when we hear your voices,
and it is your two voices, your Simon and your
Cathy narrating, of course, Simon's magnificent
script, come over the loudspeakers and echo around
this, not quite an amphitheater, but it's got
that kind of environment and that space. It really
does transport everyone to a time that is not
now. That is also not in the past either. It's
almost somewhere else entirely. And I quickly
caught up on the pattern, the narrative pattern
of, and so it goes. My mum, who's my loyal Yorvik
companion, turned to me and said, how do you
know they're going to say that? And I said, because
it's a pattern. It's a beat. it's poetic, because
a lot of your script was poetic, a lot of it
has rhyme to it and rhythm and a beat and that
fits with a pattern. But yeah, it was, I mean,
the quality of your voices too, and I mean this
as a compliment, they're ageless, if not timeless,
they were neither young nor old, kind of, they
haven't... It's a really hard quality to explain
without sounding insulting and saying if I sound,
because you don't sound old, but then equally
you weren't sounding young. And I liked how it
was both a female voice and a male voice, because
A, the female made me think of the norms, but
B, the male voice almost made me think of, well,
if Tiffy had a voice, could it be male? And I
just. I salute you, Simon, your writing. It was
so evocative, engaging, emotive, and it really
drew me in and kept me hooked, not just on what
I was seeing, but on what I was hearing, because
I've rewatched slash listened to this, because
it's available on YouTube, the link is down below,
dear viewers and listeners. And it does, it sounds
very much like a wonderful... scowled in your
ear, telling a wonderful tale. So thank you so
much for that wonderful script. The style of
it, the style of the writing is, I've read as
many solos as I can read. I've also always loved
Viking and Saxon poetry. And there's a very,
very weird way about the writing structure of
that. I really like it, it's like you half discover
things, then a bit later on you go, oh yeah,
I see why that was that, that rhyme connected
to that. And I think when you're telling a story,
it's a really, really good way of punctuating
in the same way that Shakespeare does exactly
the same thing. He punctuates with words that
echo backwards and forwards. It's quite tricky
when you're trying to... to do it. It takes a
bit of time to get into the drop into it. But
I was trying to give it a sense of this is a
this language is not quite our language. But
obviously, you've got to recognize that you're
Viking festival, you've got people from all over
the world. Perhaps not necessarily with English
as their first language. Plus, it's got to be
you've got to be able to understand it anyway.
So Um, yeah, I really enjoyed writing. I mean,
and so it goes, you have to keep the was it did
get to a point with that where I had to get the
the Google rhyming dictionary. So what else rhymes
to go suppose? Yeah, you know, the nose. No,
I can't use that. So you you do end up having
to cheat a bit. But I really enjoy writing it
really. I really enjoy it. The other great thing
is that one of the good things about our company
is that we work with the same actors a lot. So
even if they're not actually speaking words,
I have their voices in my head. So as I'm writing,
I'm kind of going, oh, yeah, that's what they
do. And of course, Cathy is my go -to. for any
narration. Last year when we did Yggdrasil, it
was great. It's a story about a sort of female
entity. And they actually said that was one of
the few things that they said that we'd like
to have a woman's voice doing the narration.
It's perfect. Great. Yeah, sadly, we only have
the audio of that. We don't have the visuals
of that one. But yeah, yeah, it's good. It's
well written. We're incredibly proud of both
of the performances. Yidrisse was challenging
because it literally rained. And it didn't actually
rain. We only did it once as well, whereas the
cursed sword we did twice. So we had two runs
at it. Two good nights. Yeah, we had no rain.
But Yidrisse, it rained heavily, heavily. before
it the actual hour of the show there wasn't any
rain but that that site was we were wet because
we hadn't we were outside when it rained and
um the site just became a mud bath yeah so yeah
it was quite that was quite challenging for that
we had still in that as well so the stilt walker
it was quite challenging for the fighters actually
i found it challenging just walking i don't know
how they did the fighting there was a moment
where louise one of our fighters went down And
it was just the first time she'd worked with
us. And she went down, and there was just this
huge splash of water as she hit the ground. And
everybody sort of went, wow, you know how you
sort of, you're not quite sure, is this brilliant?
Is this a brilliantly planned, contrived moment?
Or has she just fallen completely on her face?
And she's probably not just, she went down. and
then got up again and aah and people just like
wah and that was the that was the moment that
people try to get the pictures of that those
sorts of little those those are the little moments
that you remember she was absolutely soaked yeah
she had the best time yes she did enjoy it but
yeah challenge afterwards getting the costumes
clean yeah gosh yes because we were talking about
the norns um in my mind i had an idea about what
i wanted them to look like and i i didn't want
them to be recognizable i i didn't want to be
about faces so we We use masks, which we actually
and. But also I wanted them to be I wanted them
to have some like cloaks trading out behind them
and a sense of just size like like they were
living shadows and. These are all great ideas
to have. until you're standing outside and the
wind starts blowing. And there are all these
lovely ideas, oh, we could use really light material
and it would just billow around and it would
look fantastic. And not if the wind's blowing
in the wrong way, it doesn't. It just looks a
bit weird. And you've got performers being blown
across the stage trying desperately to hold onto
their costumes. And when they take their costumes
off, the costumes blow away. So there's all these
sorts of things that you have to, when you're
doing something like this outdoors, you have
to take into consideration. That's a really good
point about the cloaks. I can see how it would
have been beautiful as a concept, but didn't
work out practicality, especially if the wind,
because you can't control it, changes direction.
And certainly, me as an audience member, it's
only afterwards I think about how you did this
or how you might have done that. And the fact
that you try the cloak and then learned it didn't
work, especially if the wind blows, and what
if it rains? Does it trail and get soggy? or
if it snows, we can have snow in February when
your actors be shivering as they're trying to
put on their costumes. It just shows the level
of thought, preparation, creativity, skill and
talent, all that you and others put together
to make this one event of many that formed the
Orbit Bike Festival attract such an audience
and are so engaging and thought -provoking. And
it's why I want to do this mini -series, The
Legends of Yorvik, to showcase the talent and
the skills that are used and recognise the effort
and hopefully honour your pride that you should
have in shows like this because I am grateful
the weather gods were good for you this year
compared to last year. The other thing is that
in common with Fantastic Fireworks, Johnny, Regia
and You're For School, anybody who'd done it
last year coming back to doing it this year,
we had an idea of what we could do, of the potential
of it. But obviously you want to improve on it.
So Fantastic Fireworks had some ideas about,
they had more of an idea about the lighting.
Because when you can sit and talk to somebody
in a meeting and say, well, there's eight of
us, we've run around a lot, just we're using
this area, try and light that. So we wanted to
have, for when the dwarves are in Sparkelheim
and they're at their forges, we wanted lights
inside the drum risers shining up into their
faces. So that was a new thing that we put in.
And it's a very simple thing, but you have to
have a cable to the light. So you then got to
put this in in such a way that it doesn't impinge
on anybody. Biting over it, yes. Or anything
like that. We don't want to create a trip, so
we sort of dealt with that. Well, and also, in
the same space, you've got a battle that's happened
two hours beforehand. So you either have to have
it so they can work in the same space with it,
or you have to lay it down and deal, and you
don't have the time, really, to build. You can't
build a set in that time. So yeah, there's lots
there. I mean, the weather, yeah. We've thought
about, I mean, one of the things about doing
it again is that you do, it does make you go,
do you know what, I wonder if we could do this.
I mean, the first year, Yggdrasil tree, you've
got an ovoid shape with a big tree in the middle.
And last year, there was a fence around the bottom
of the tree. So we went, oh, that's all right,
because we can hang the costumes on the fence.
It also looks in keeping, but it keeps the focus
on Yggdrasil. the tree was lit all the way through
so that was again yeah that was that was that
was great we could see what we were doing um
and this year obviously we didn't want the tree
to be the focus it's mentioned in passing but
it's not the star of the show because that was
the thing about doing it before have the tree
is the star of the show and we're just kind of
minions running around underneath it this year
no light on the tree we didn't know that the
fence had been removed so we managed to get Yeah,
we got some Harris fencing in the end. We got
some Harris fencing which we put around it and
then covered with stuff so it didn't look like
we'd put Harris fencing around the tree. Yes.
We still had the three drum risers but I wanted
one of them to be a funeral beer so we had one
of them was a double so somebody could lie down
because you can't really lie down on just the
one. So we had two of the lids opened on so that
there was light underneath and one that was a
double drum riser so that you could lie somebody
down on it. Yeah, the fireworks. Again, I was
trying to work out, could we get fireworks into
the show? Because last year, all the pyrotechnics
were right at the end. So you had the show. Which
was great. And Johnny wrote this fantastic piece
of brilliant piece of music. But you know, when
you've got these things there, you think, oh,
I don't think you've used it before. Fantastic
fireworks were very, very into the idea of using
it. earlier as well. So obviously the, the pyrotechnics
are set up on the very perimeter of the, of the
space as far away from the actors and from the
audience as is possible so that there's no, there's
no safety issues. Last year we, the museum let
us use six or eight benches to put the reenactors
on. And this was a really important thing that
sort of happened organically, but it meant that
the reenactors had somebody to sit down rather
than sitting on the wet floor. And it also got
them, it almost got them out of the way. And
it was a bit like they were part of the audience
watching what was going on. But obviously those
benches were very close to the pyrotechnic line.
So we could put pyros in, but I had to. director
scene, so at the end of it, all our friends from
Regia and Jofas Hall came into the center and
were around the tree. So that when all this stuff
went off, they were miles away. You're then really
paranoid about everybody understands that. So
you're going through these things again and again.
Luckily, I direct, but on the day, what tends
to happen is that directing is taken over, or
split between three of us. So Cathy also, director,
which is brilliant. Our fight director, Matt
Wood, is also directing. And because the actors
are so many times there, they throw in their,
they throw in their sort of, their tough and
safety worth as well. So it's, it's quite a collaborative
thing. And the real actors the same, they, they
just did such a good job this year, such a good
job, because I asked a lot more of them this
year, because I could, last year with Yorvick
Hall, I got a sense of what they could do, and
they loved it, and they wanted to do more, so
this year we gave them more to do. I'm glad you've
mentioned three actors, because I've been going
to Yorvick Festival since 2006 for the odd year
off, for various reasons, but 2020 when that
was my longest consecutive number of years not
attending because of life reasons and logistics
because trains aren't always reliable in my side
of West Yorkshire. But I remember like the earliest
finales I've seen they were often great battle
reenactments. I remember one, the earliest one
I saw featured an acquaintance that me and Cathy
have which is Nigel Amos and he's a member of
the, excuse me, Regae Engelorum reenactment group
which as you mentioned you've been working with
for this one and last one potentially. But I
remember first learning that Nigel started doing
a lot of the script writing, a lot of the more
narrative elements that started coming through.
So instead of just showing the active combat
episodes of history, they would look at the narratives
behind those events with the characters and the
figures of history. I remember going to a great
banquet in 2018 or 2017 and Nigel Amos was part
of that event. performed brilliantly as a scald,
praising the sons of Ragnar, Huber, Hafdam and
Sven, Snake in the Eye, that kind of thing and
it was really good and I got to know him a bit
more personally then and then of course I know
he got to write on other plays, well parts of
Jorvik finale and of course the one in 2020 I
was due to go to and I know that he was looking
forward to that one because it was about Ibn
Hadlan, the Islamic scholar who encountered Vikings,
many Rus Vikings, and wrote quite a bit about
them in his own scripts and travel logs. But
that sadly got cancelled because a storm came
over and started blowing all the fences over
and all the lighting out, which of course was
a big health and safety hazard. It started to
cancel, then of course pandemic happened, and
then it's been a long time coming since the finales
have been as big as they have been, I think,
although I haven't been to any recently until
yore this year. But I guess the other question
is, now that you've done two, do you think you'll
be around to do a third in 2026? Have you ever
told you anything? No, we don't know. We don't
know. They are, I mean... It must take them a
long time to plan the whole festival. So we won't
know anything. I think till mid -summer maybe.
I mean, the very first year, they were even later,
weren't they? It was more like October time when
we got asked. But I think this year just gone.
I think it was mid to late summer when they got
in touch. So we'd love to do it again. We think
sort of three times would be nice, wouldn't it?
A third crack of the whip would be lovely. I
know the team really enjoy it. because it is
a challenging week because the weather can be
horrible that week. You know after the first
year I thought none of them would ever want to
come back because it was so the weather was so
miserable but yeah we need to do it again so
we would love to. But it all depends on them
and then their budget and all of that kind of
and their themes. I mean, Nigel, as you say,
has been involved in it for ever and he was in
the show. I don't know whether you knew. Yes,
I did notice Nigel was in, but only after the
event, I must admit. And it's only because, of
course, I follow him on Facebook as a friend.
He posted photos of himself playing one of the
dwarves and working in Svartelheim. and he of
course tags you in and is like, oh Nigel, would
you mind just possibly putting me in touch with
Tybalt Health Theatre? I would love to talk to
them about their amazing performance and here
we are. He's a very good dwarf, he's Nigel. He's
also a very good bolder than beautiful. He was
very good bolder than beautiful. I can imagine
that. He died well. So yeah, I mean, I should
imagine he'll be involved and hopefully, hopefully
we will. We'd really like to. The thing is that
we we've worked with Nigel for years. I mean,
Nigel and I have done loads and loads of projects
over the years together. And I've always known
about his involvement in Jorvik. And again, he's
one of the one of the people who's been involved
in that life. And when He was the first person
we contacted when we were approached by the the
festival To say we've just been asked about this.
What do you think and he was very very enthusiastic
and of course Right from the word go. We wanted
him to be on board. We want him to be part of
the company I don't think he knew what he was
letting himself in for because it is As we've
sort of said within that within the hour You've
got eight performers But in order to make that
large space look busy, you're either on doing
something or you are off getting changed and
ready to run and do something. You have about
six characters each, I think. Five or six characters
each. Plus you are wrangling the re -enactors
into the right places. In some ways for actors
it's great because you don't have any lines to
learn so you're not that isn't occupying that
would normally be what was occupying the most
of your brain. You don't have that but you have
to really listen. You don't have that internal
clock of saying when I hear that word I know
that I'm about to say this. So you have to really,
really focus on what's going on. And I mean,
you end up with people throwing on one costume
and they're going, no, wrong costume, throw it
away. Oh no, no, no. Because you're... And we
don't get much rehearsal time. We have the day
before, but we can't... Do a rehearsal as you
would as you would normally do constriction you
want to have everything in place But we can't
do that because we can only rehearse during the
day Which means you can't have the lights and
we can't have the sound because they look because
the courts are in session Yes, so it's very much.
It's a walkthrough and just And of course we
and we don't have to be an actors either because
they they've got jobs. They're sensible people.
I paid attention to school so It's The rehearsals
are really hard because you get a little time
to just go, here's your costume, here's your
next one, here's your next one, here's your next
one, here's your next one, here's your next one,
here's your next one. Right, let's take all that
outside. So just get that sorted out so you know
what order you're doing things in. Right, here
are the three drum rises. We're using this one,
then this one, then this one, then this one.
Now let's block the first bit. Now let's block
the second bit. It takes a lot longer. It always
takes longer than you think it's gonna take.
And yeah, I'm always amazed at the skill of the
performers to actually get to the evening and
go, yep, I know what I'm doing. Right, let's
get out there and do it. Or for an hour. But
hopefully next year, fingers crossed, we hope
so. Now that you've both explained so well the
limitations and the challenges the entire cast
faced in terms of logistics around the space,
working with the monologue, the duration, getting
the timing right, working with the lighting or
the lack of lighting when it goes dark. I just
take my hat off to all of them because they did
everything so smoothly, so easily it looked.
And yes, although they went off at lines, the
drama that they used in their bodies was brilliant.
I remember watching, with some gripped attention,
the silent discussion or, say, argument between
Herval and her ghostly father, I say ghostly,
the draugr, an undead father, about taking his
sword from his burial mound and from his arm
gestures and her arm gestures and the postures.
And of course, thinking back to the dwarves,
which Nigel was one of them, they walked with
such a different type of swagger and step and
a hunch or a limp. It really made them feel distinctly
different just on site visually with those simple
moves to the rest of the cast, who are of course
playing as humans. And I have to say, whoever
thought of doing the backlit orange inside those?
prop boxes to turn it into a forge when they
were making Tiefing. It was stunningly simple.
It captured the moment, the mood, the atmosphere,
all within that small space. They didn't need
a big setup for a forge. They just needed that
and it worked really, really well. I think the
dwarf bits, they really do it because there's
Matt and Nigel, isn't there? No, it's Tom and
Nigel. Tom and Nigel. Tom's a regular at the
festival as well. So yeah, they enjoyed it. Yeah,
they really get big dwarves. I mean, because
it has to be big, because the stage is so big.
You have to be over the top in whatever you're
doing, because everyone needs to be able to see
it. Lots of big gestures. And also that's why
we have the... that's why we have the stilt walking
unit as well, just to give us a bit of scale.
So last year, I can't remember the name of the
character, who's the giant that the world is
made from? Oh, Ymir. Ymir, thank you. Yes. So
Tom played Ymir last year. We have an absolutely
brilliant costume that was made for us a few
years ago. for like a wild man. Wild man. Yeah.
So we we use that. But yeah, as soon as I was
going through it, I thought the ghost of Herve's
father, that will be that's the moment to have
that in. Although Tom last year with all the
rain, it got to a point where he was going really
is now I've got to stop raining. Otherwise it
gets dangerous. Because we had Ymir was killed.
and he had to fall and then be caught by the
actor. So those kind of, yeah, it was quite the
thing. This year he could walk on and walk off,
which was great. We used more torches this year
as well. Flaming, yeah. Flaming torches. So we
tried to introduce, yeah, we tried to introduce
that, which again, there's a very weird dissonance
between What is going on in my head? What eventually
happens in the York? I that always makes me laugh
because you have to go you have to sort of go
I'm sure Kathy about milk. Yeah, this is the
ideal. This is the this is what we want But we're
not gonna get that so this is what we can have.
Let's let's but so let's make this the best of
what we can have Yes, because in an ideal world
you'd have stage crew and you'd have someone
lighting someone else lighting the flames for
you Yeah, and having it there to give you as
soon as but because we don't have that so logistics
of how to get all the flames lit and who was
gonna light the flames and who was fire trained
and And how to yeah, and yeah Yeah Poor old Louise.
She enjoyed it though, she liked having her own
flame. But there is, you know, to look that magnificently,
there was work to be done behind the scenes.
That was, I think, one of my favourite scenes,
the herbals scene. Again, it's so brilliant to
have a female character like that in it, because
otherwise it is just lots of kings and berserkers
killing each other. And having that character
And again, as I said, it's about choice. Having
that character come from nothing, from being
a slave to being a shieldmaiden to then going
to get her father's sword and actually claiming
it from her dead father's ghost. And then having
got it, what do you do? Because her father says,
if you take this, there'll be trouble just now
I want to know there'll be really big trouble
kill each other and yeah whatever and still she
takes it away and she there's that lovely bit
where she tries to sort of she applies she marries
she has two sons one of them's like his grandfather
a bit of a wild person the other one's more like
his father gentle considered person and you're
kind of going this is and this is what i love
about the viking myths you're going oh come on
this has got to end this is going to end badly
especially when you add in a sword that if you
draw it out of its sheath it has to taste black
that's probably the person come on and you give
that sword to your son and you don't say by the
way just a few little pointers about this sword
it's cursed so don't don't do anything with it
just you know have it there and i Yeah, I wish
there'd been, one of the things that tends to
happen in Metz is, in Norse Metz is that somebody,
something happens, the story moves on and you
then want the backstory of what did, what did
Hervald do? What have her sons killed the other
one? What does she do? We don't know. It's not
in the story. What was her reaction? We know
that her son. almost to went voluntarily into
exile. So I suggested that, you know, he broke
his mom's heart. The reason he got the given
the sword was that he was the favorite. But we
have such Louise was so thrilled to be playing
a shieldmaiden. She's done a lot. She does a
lot of combat stuff. She does stunt performance.
She does a lot of combat stuff. and it was it
was really good to have that story involved.
Louisa did amazing in that role as her role as
field maiden. You could tell she knew how to
use the sword quite adaptly, quite well, quite
cleverly, quite strategically for the purpose
of it as being a weapon. It wasn't just a prop,
it was her weapon and I can still distinctly
remember there was a sequence of little combats
between the reenactors around the circle and
she had gained victory over one then she walked
around a bit fought another one gained victory
over that and at the same time others were fighting
and yet they all kind of like rotated and yet
met in pairs fought and then rotated then met
in pairs and fought and it was it was really
cleverly done i was really impressed with that
as a performance combat piece if you've got four
fighters then you can't really you have they
have to sort of just do fight fight fight fight
Move. Fight the other one. Move. Go back to fighting
that one. Move. So that everybody gets to see
it. You have to keep moving it around. Otherwise,
I think it will be too small. The reenactors,
we gave them more fighting to do. I mean, King
Svaflame, when he was just knocking them down
one after the other, that was a highlight. It
was a highlight for them. So you almost don't
line up. But almost like you're in a line and
you step forward and he just there's one, do
you remember the really really big guy? He does
some kind of amateur boxing or something. Yeah,
he does. It's huge. I mean, you know that they're
all quite huge, this huge guy. And he said, oh,
can you just bop me on the head? And Will went,
yeah, because he's got a foamy sort of hammer
thing because the weapons we use for the sword
fighting are all live blades. But for that we
had a couple of things that were more like, I
suppose more like LARP style things. So yeah,
sure, popped you on the head and this guy went
down like a felled tree. I watched that twice
and each time I watched it, it just delighted
me. Because you see, when you get moments like
that, you see the other reenactors go, ah, right.
I can do more with what I'm doing. And they all
sort of gee each other along. And I love that
about the show as well. People are exemplars
to each other. They encourage each other. More
than just participation. That's what I'd like
to get. They are quite a long way away, though,
aren't they? We spent ages on the performance
stage saying to everybody, you can't come into
the arena anywhere you want. There's a gate.
You have to use that so you never ever cross
over the pyrotechnics. You're always coming in
there. You're always going out there. And it's
a bit annoying because it means that you're the
far end away from where you're staying. But you
always do that. Yeah, so we couldn't get the
audience in. So we were going to get the audience
in. We couldn't involve them that directly. We
try to get them to cheer. That's what I think
I'd do maybe next year is think about. I do feel
like we're a long way away from the audience
and we're performing. But anyway, yeah. Well,
I can confirm to you both that I was cheering
excessively loud or as loud as I could reasonably
with other people immediately beside me in the
audience. because I wanted someone in that group
of you around that tree to know how much I loved
that show. And the pyrotechnics, of course, they
were a real treat. I was not expecting them.
I know in past banales, particularly with battles,
have had huge... a fireworks display afterwards
I thought well they're not doing it this one
because it's a play but then whoosh whoosh whoosh
whoosh fire huge sparklers and the music that
went with it oh it was just it was it really
sealed it off really nicely and I think everyone
in that circular arena we may have been far away
but we connected across that distance through
the the music the staging the acting of course
the writing of that wonderful script the weird
thing was that it's it's an hour But because
once you press the button for the soundtrack,
that's it, there's no going back. The soundtrack
is this, an hour later it stops. And the weird
thing is that that hour just goes. It does. Which
is a good thing because obviously the audience
have to stand. We couldn't make it longer. We
have to be there to think about. Well, now that
you've got Jorvik under your belt, are you doing
anything else Norse -related in terms of performances,
shows, events coming up soon? This year, I don't
think we have anything other Viking -y, do we?
We have a bit. Do we? We do, but she won't know
yet. Oh. We've been asked to perform as part
of the... Hanseatic festival in Kingslin, which
is fantastic. Kingslin, when it was in its medieval
pomp, was one of the most important ports in
England. And it was a part of the Hanseatic League,
the League of Merchant Towns and ports dotted
all around the Baltic, but further afield as
well. And I've started writing it. And I've put
in a scene between a Lin salt trader and marauding
Viking who's a little disappointed that when
he arrives in Lin there isn't the kind of gold
and silver that he's looking for and has a long
discussion with the Lin salt trader. who explains
that salt is even more valuable. It's much more
important. And I think, in terms of what I've
called the Viking, I know what his nickname was.
It's Ivar the Gullible. He's just, he comes on
all the... So that's a little bit of Viking.
I don't know that we have got any other Vikings
this year. No. There's a sort of... I don't know
whether you know... There's a festival of history
in Lincoln that happens this weekend. It's coming.
Well, I say it like it's been happening forever.
This is the second year of the festival. And
we're actually being Victorians, but there are
Vikings there. The festival is through, I think
it's just at the top. Have you been to Lincoln?
So the castle is at the top of the hill, as is
some of the old bits of the city around the cathedral.
I think that is mostly where the festival happens.
90 % of it is free, but the castle does have
a paywall. And so in there is a big show, which
we're part of there. But there are Vikings outside
and there is rumour that it might be more Viking
focused next year. but that relies on it is a
council run event so it does rely on the council
running it um and so hopefully with the nice
weather this year will be successful enough for
them to consider running it again next year so
uh we have that um but i think we're a bit viking
short because yeah i mean the last time we did
the last viking stories was for lincolnshire
with some Viking stories, and then Grimfowl Festival
a few years ago. We did that with Nigel. We have
the festival coming this weekend, where we are
playing a mixture of Victorian historians and
a Victorian theatre company. So we're working
together to put on a historical show. So we have
a very typical argument really in that, how do
you make history? entertaining so the historians
of course want to put facts in and make it factually
accurate the theatricals want to make it theatrically
exciting so which is an ongoing conversation
that happens today um so that's a good sort of
running comment about performing history um so
that's then um then we we're at Lincoln a few
times this year but our big big event i suppose
is illuminated isn't it yeah um so every year
for feels like about a long time. We have been
at Whitby Abbey for the half term. So that's
our next big, massive, like lots of people projects,
I think. We've got lots of smaller projects.
Smaller projects, which we've really enjoyed
doing. So earlier on this year. Sorry, my watch.
Earlier on this year, we in February, we did
a piece for Holocaust Memorial Day. about the
liberation of the concentration camp at Belson,
and we've been invited back to do that again
by JW3, who are a charity who specialise in Holocaust
education. We're at the National Archives. They've
got a new exhibition in Q in London. They've
got this new exhibition about espionage. where
the MI5 files that they've been given access
to. We went to the opening. It is brilliant.
And we are going to be providing a couple of
characters for that, for a couple of family days.
We have an ongoing project, a performance of
Dracula at Whitby also. Go to it. Yeah, home
from home. So Dracula is a three -handed version
of Dracula. It's in its 14th year. It's 14th
or 15th, we're not quite sure. It's like the
mousetrap of outdoor theatre. Yes, it is. And
that's all the way through the summer holidays.
But The Illuminated is very similar. It's similar
in its epicness as the Orvic project in that
we work with a lighting and sound company and
they light... they're commissioned to light the
ruins and then they work with us to create it's
a promenade piece so you move as an audience
and so we have four sort of spaces that they
come to and watch the performance again Johnny
writes the sound for that the soundscape but
it's live performed live so we're acting in it
and he comes up with us and does all the sound
around and and and coordinates sound effects
and stuff and Yes, so this is an ongoing story
for those who come every year. So there is a
through line from one year to the next, but that
is not the main leader. Dracula's always involved,
but it's not necessarily the Dracula story. I
managed to sort of define it, didn't I? It's
a bit like Marvel Comics. You are in the Dracula
universe. Yes. The characters are in the Dracula
universe, but it's not Dracula. So you're not
going to, it's not, we're not telling the story
of Dracula as we do in the sun. It's always based
around Victorian, the classic Victorian Edwardian
stories of horror, dread, weirdness, that sort
of thing, which I read all the time. And I just,
I just percolate down my own little ideas about
how, with that, what to make it. real for the
audience. We always personify the audience as
a particular thing. So one year there might be
refugees fleeing to the safety of Wickby Abbey
from a vampire plague. The year after they might
be coming to Wickby Abbey to seek the cure from
the waters of the Abbey pond or something like
that. Every year there's something different.
Or they might all be vampire hunters who've been
gathered. um yeah it's a night time show obviously
um and we have similar size audiences actually
i don't know how many Jorvik had but we can have
up to three 3 000 in the evening isn't it something
ridiculous isn't it so yeah we do the show twice
through the evening so that's our that's our
big um our big focus towards the end of the year
and the summer is is uh full of lots of variety
of victorian and medieval um and archaeological
um projects throughout the summer the thing is
we there are certain there are certain things
that we're interested in and then we're asked
to do something we think it'll either be oh wow
i've always wanted to do that or oh i don't know
anything about that great so the thing in the
national archives about um about spies and espionage
we did a play last year called operation fortitude
about this um to celebrate the 80th anniversary
of d -day um at dover castle there was a whole
operation based around dover to try to trick
the trying to trick the German army into thinking
the invasion was going to happen between Dover
and Calais, rather than where it did happen between
Southampton and Normandy. So we wrote a play
about that, and that got me very interested in
Spies and Espionage, a deception, and I've kept
that interest going. So yes, who knows where
we get taken next, we just have no idea. The
other thing is we get asked about projects That
then don't quite come up come up, but so we do
a lot of work on them, which is fine Yes, we
do so we did We were approached about doing a
project of Stonehenge which is fascinating it
hasn't hasn't sort of come to anything, but The
other thing is you just never say never you never
know if something goes away and then Suddenly
comes back again. You think oh, yes, that was
we were talking about that so Watch this space
every time we tell. And on that very apt line,
Simon from time will tell theatre, we will bring
this episode to a close. Another wonderful exploration
of people and events and organisations and skills
and talents behind the wonderful Yorbit Viking
Festival. And that's why you're all legends,
hence the name. So thank you very much, Simon.
Thank you very much, Cathy. I wish you both and
the rest of the whole cast and crew of Tyne Motel
Theatre best of luck in all your performances,
whatever time era they're presenting, in any
of your locations around the UK. Viewers and
listeners, I'll be putting the link down below
to the YouTube performance of Their Care Sort
of Tear Thing and the audio recording of The
League Still Show from 2024. And of course coming
up we have other guests lined up for the Legends
of Jorvik series. We've got a wonderful illustrator
called Katie Smith from York Archaeology who
designed the one and only Jorvik Top Trumps card
set. We have Jason Buck, a storyteller who told
some fascinating folklore set in Iceland and
other Nordic tales at the festival as well. And
we also have our regular content of Valhalla
Conversations episode 15 featuring Emma Thompson
from the University of Leicester, Luca Pinaro
from the University of Iceland and we will be
discussing the North's influence not just on
tabletop games but on computer games and the
lovely crossover in between. So I do hope you
can join me again on the channels or whatever
platform you're listening or watching to so please
hit subscribe so you can catch up because there's
lots more to come. Thank you again Simon and
Cathy, it's been wonderful talking to you. Thank
you. Thank you.