Welcome to Belhala Conversations podcast. I'm
your host, Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul
Chaser Becky, and I am a proud Viking geek. I
fell in love with the history, culture and mythology
of the Viking Age and I have been on an endless
quest for more ever since. Join me as I discuss
all things North with those who have been inspired
by Viking Age history and North mythology in
their creative works or those who have studied
the sagas and archaeology and review how such
subjects are being presented to modern audiences
today. If you like Viking stuff you are welcome
in my Valhalla and I hope you stay. for the conversation.
Welcome everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast
episode 14 and for this month's episode, the
month of April, I am delighted to welcome A fellow
RPG friend and Norse artist, Sam Flegel. Welcome
to Valhalla. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate
that. Would you mind introducing yourself and
telling our guests, viewers and listeners about
your wonderful Norse works? Sure. So I call my
Norse series, Fateful Signs, which is basically
my love of Norse mythology expressed visually
over, gosh, over a decade now. And so I've done
an illustrated version of the haba mall and I
do oil paintings based on the various stories
of the gods and goddesses. If you want to check
any of that out, you can go to fatefulsigns .com
and you'll see all of that. I have a newsletter
where I let people know when new stuff comes
out. I have a Patreon for those who want to really
dig in. And then I post on YouTube and Instagram
and I even just started a new tik -tok. So I'm
trying to be where all the cool kids are You're
braver than me. I haven't dipped my toe in that
sea I'm just getting my hang around Instagram
reels. Let alone YouTube shorts I've been doing
this now for 15 years as a professional artist
I've really seen a change it used to be enough
just to post a cool image on Instagram but these
days just looking at the numbers video is king
and so i'm just trying to be in all the places
where because you can make one video and then
post it everywhere with very little difference
so anyway that's dipping my toe in the whole
video editing thing which completely honestly
it really changes how i work because it's not
just about sitting down to draw or paint now
i gotta make sure there's the The camera's in
the right angle and it's focused on the right
thing because I've definitely filmed myself drawing
and then you get it back and it focuses on the
back of my head leaning into the photo rather
than the drawing. It's just, anyway, I've got
it all worked out now, but a lot of learning
this past year. I feel like when I set out to
be an artist, I never planned to be a video editor,
but here we are. Welcome to the modern world.
Well those videos look very well done. I've always
enjoyed watching your reels, especially when
you talk your way through because of course you
mentioned you've been painting for the Havomile
and the Voluspa, which is the prophecy of the
oracle, the CRS, that Odin raises from the dead
to find out what's going to happen to him and
the rest of his family etc. Of course the Havomile
is the sayings of the High One. Odin's I think
is directly all from Odin more or less is it
not? Yeah, so har it's the sayings of har har
is the high one and the high one is Odin so yeah,
it's it's I always describe it as it's like Proverbs
from the Bible, but for Vikings or poor Richard's
almanac for the Old Norse That's a very good
way of describing it. I like that Yeah, you know
the thing I love about the haba mall and I I
talked to so many people about the haba mall
because I have the books and I do comic book
conventions and other Fantasy conventions. So
a lot of people will see the book and go what
is that? So I've gotten my spiel pretty good.
But the thing I find that's so cool about it
is Most of the life advice in there is still
actually really solid advice in particular I
really enjoy the section on drinking because
it talks about how when your fellows party, you
should party too, but there's also no shame in
going to bed. In fact, often the worst things
happen when you don't go to bed when you know
you should. And I just think like, man, like,
yeah, that's brilliant now, just as it was a
thousand years ago or, you know. maybe even earlier
than that considering it probably was an oral
tradition before it was written down. I always
find that stuff really cool, the idea that we
as people haven't really changed all that much,
but technology has changed a whole lot. Culture
certainly has changed some, largely because of
the technology, but at the end of the day, people
were just people. I couldn't have said it better
myself, really. That makes so much sense. I often
wonder if that's the allure of the Vikings and
the Viking Age. It feels so alien, so far removed,
yet the ideals, the struggles, what we think
people struggled with and tried to compete with,
whether it was in love, marriage, power, politics,
freedom, independence, that kind of thing, those
are still... things that we practice live with
experience today, very much so. Absolutely. And
I also think there's another component, which
is if you come from a Germanic speaking people,
so both of us, you know, speak English and English
comes from Old English, which comes from Old
Norse. And so there's so much of it just baked
right into the language. that I know for me when
I first started getting into Norse mythology
I would learn things and there's it almost feels
like I don't know like coming home or a certain
familiarity it's kind of for me it's also rooted
in Tolkien that when you when you read about
the Shire and and Bilbo's adventures and you
know Frodo and all that there's something about
it that just feels like you've been there before,
or like it's not where you're from, but maybe
your grandfather understood it, or something
along those lines. And I think Tolkien tapped
into that same thing that Norse mythology also
taps into, which is that the roots of just, you
know, home and hearth and adventure, but also
rooted in family and community. And so many of
those things are just right in the English language
and in many Germanic speaking languages. That
is very true. So touching on that point about
how when you first experienced it, how did you
first come across Norse mythology and what drew
you in? So I I do get asked this question a lot
and I Definitely thought about it a good bit
and it really goes back to college for me When
I was a young man, I went to Mississippi State
University, which for me was out of state. I
live in Tennessee and So I went to a school where
I didn't really know anyone no one from my high
school went went there and I was pretty lonely
So I would go to the library and at the time
I was I was very interested in mythology and
world religion and so they had a huge section
like most college libraries do and I was just
reading all of the mythologies not not just Norse
mythology, but Hindu religion and Christian and
Jewish. My mother is a Methodist minister and
so I was raised in the church and so I had lots
of questions about the things that you get taught
in church and the things that you don't get taught
when you're raised in a religious household.
digging. And when I read Norse mythology, just
like I was talking about earlier, it really felt
like coming home in a way where the other mythologies
just felt more like, I don't know, like, like
stories. You know, like, like I read Chinese
mythology, and I think, man, that's cool. But
I have a hard time relating to the idea of a
celestial bureaucracy that just doesn't hit me
in the heart the same way as like, the feeling
of a bearded guy looking out into the mist and
wondering what creature could come out of that.
To me, it just hits me more in the feels. It's
always stuck with me after that. At that time,
I was majoring in graphic design and I went on
to have career in marketing. I worked as a graphic
designer for almost a decade and then I went
on to be an illustrator and I worked as an illustrator
for about five or six years doing art for game
companies before I ever did a painting based
on Norse mythology. So there's almost a at least
a decade, maybe even 12, 13 years between that
initial experience and then thinking about like,
I should paint those stories that I love so much.
But even through that time, I'd still would read
the various works and the history of it. And
I would get recommended books by friends and
just all that. So it stayed with me. But not
not at the level that the the last ten years
where I've started doing the fateful signs project
I've really gone in the deep end and I I really
haven't come up for air yet. So Well, you seem
to be swimming well down there in that metaphorical
sea What made you decide to do fateful signs
then how does that all begin so it I I was very
blessed in the first part of my illustration
career that once I started getting work professionally,
it never seemed to stop for years. And so I was
always moving on to the next job, the next project,
the next convention, the next commission until
I didn't. And I had a month where suddenly there
was just no work. And so, for the first time
in years, it was like, huh, what do I want to
paint just for me? And so, the first painting
I did in the Fateful Sign, what would become
the Fateful Sign series, was Odin's Secrets,
which is a painting of Odin holding Mimir's severed
head with Hugen and Moonin sort of flying in
on his shoulders. At the time, I didn't realize
I started a series. It was just me doing a painting.
And after finishing the painting, it did pretty
well for me online. I even ran a Kickstarter
where I sold prints of that painting. And at
the time, I raised $1 ,000, which I thought was
pretty cool. Back in, I mean, I think this was
like 20... 14 2015 so it was in the very early
days of Kickstarter. I Was one of the first artists
I actually knew to try doing art on Kickstarter
And Yeah, and then eventually I started getting
work again, you know, it ended up only being
a month or so with that little dry spot but from
there I Just would start planning images where
you know if I had free time I'd work on another
Norse mythology image. And then I started getting
commissions for Norse mythology images. And then
I started having enough of it where I was like,
you know, I wasn't sure what to call it. And
even calling it fateful signs didn't happen until
I did the illustrated Habamal, where I actually
specifically took a month off at the end of the
year. So in the month of December, because I
wanted to know the Hava Mall better. And so I
thought if I did illustrations based on the poems,
for me as a visual learner, that would be a way
I could learn the poems personally. And I posted
that online. And then that eventually led to
a book design. My wife's a graphic designer.
So she did all the layouts for the book for me.
And then Kickstarter. And it kind of snowballed
from there. But the quote comes from the Hava
Mall. where it's the section with Odin's, it's
talking about Odin hanging on the tree, and the
next line is, "'Runes shall you find, and fateful
signs, that the king of singers colored, and
the mighty gods have made.'" And so, the fateful
signs is a reference to, and the reddening of
the runes is a reference to adding blood to activate
the runes, which was a practice. That's thought
that um, the the seers who used the runes would
do uh in order to add color color to them and
so anyway, um Someone suggested to me that fateful
signs was a was a cool name and it had the reference
in the in the lore and in the poems and uh, yeah,
so for a long time I called it like fateful signs
the viking series But eventually fateful signs
just became enough of its own thing that I kind
of dropped uh any of the other little bits with
it but yeah that's that's where that came from.
Can I ask kind of like what kind of commissioned
work did you get in the field of or the area
of Norse mythology because I'm always curious
about who or what wants Norse myth as an image
when there's so little imagery of it. Yeah so
um it it happened in two different ways um the
first is would get I was a guest at conventions
a lot and Part of the deal is often like they'll
pay for your hotel and your booth but they want
you to do some art that they can then use on
like the the magazine or the the pamphlets they
give out at the convention they'll use it as
a Poster so there's kind of that that give -and
-take when you're an artist guest and so I was
an artist guest for a show called the Full Moon
Tattoo and Horror Convention. And so, yeah, the
they they'd have like, you know, the actor who
was in the Jason costume would be there and sign
stuff and then tattoos. But it was werewolf themed.
And so the second piece I did in the series is
the death of Odin, where I did a picture of Fenris
as a werewolf holding Odin severed head in repeat.
So it's kind of a different take on Fenris that
fit what they were doing, but also fit my desire
to do more Norse images. And then I was an artist
guest at a big gaming conventions, Origins Game
Fair. And so I did a picture of Vidar with a
metallic boot. that they used on their images.
And then the other, so the first part of the
answer is I would shoehorn other commissions
into Norse mythology theme. And then the other
type of commissions I were getting were from
private collectors who wanted an image. And so
a friend of mine now, George, he used to commission
a lot of my work and He wanted to see the binding
of Loki. So when they take Loki beneath the earth
and tie him to stones. Interesting. Yeah, if
you want to check it out, it's on my website.
But I did a very detailed depiction of it. where
it actually has the one son who's turned into
the wolf who is eating the entrails of his brother
and the entrails are being used to tie Loki down
and Odin is tying Loki down while Thor is holding
him in place and Scotty is placing the snake
above his head and Sijin is in the background
holding a bowl and crying as she looks on at
everything that's happening. That piece was commissioned
by George, and he still has it in his private
collection. And then from there, you know, it
would just be me creating images I wanted. Now,
these days, I think the most common commission
I get is for tattoos, particularly since I did
black and white artwork for the Hava Mall that
lends itself pretty well to tattoos. And so Gosh,
I don't want to feel like I'm bragging, but I'd
say, you know, 20 to 30 or more people have my
art tattooed on their body. And some of them
are people I know and who have asked permission
and other people just get it done. I mean, the
strangest, not the strangest, but I guess the
most surprising story was I was at a convention
in Atlanta called Dragon Con and just To set
the scene we were going to a Mario and Luigi
rave and so it was a dance party where everyone's
in Mario My wife and I were just going with some
friends so we were just dressed, you know normal
but I walked in and this guy goes Oh, man, you're
Sam Flegel and started taking off his shirt immediately
And so I was like, I don't know what's about
to happen here. And then he turned around and
he had a full back piece of my drawing of the
world tree from wow uh actually of odin being
hung from the world tree from the hava mall uh
that i uh and so yeah and i was you know blown
away i got photos and uh anyway so that that
definitely happens um where you know people just
think think it's cool and uh They want to get
it tattooed, and then other people now want me
to design custom art in a theme or a character.
Recently, I had a guy who really liked the image
I did of Thor from the Veluspa, where his legs
are actually the goats, and he's holding the
hammer. He wanted a piece of Odin to match that,
so I did a piece where Odin is made up of...
the rings, ravens, and wolves actually kind of
construct his body. I don't know for sure if
the guy ever did it, but he was gonna get it
as a forearm piece, so one on one arm and one
on the other. Yeah, dedication. I don't have
any tattoos personally, so I always think it's
interesting what people choose or what they feel
connected to. Other thing people commission is,
I was commissioned to do a painting of Wayland
the Smith, the famous Smith who made Beowulf's
armor and Siegfried's sword, and he's referenced
in the Poetic Edda as well, in the, what is it,
the Voland section, so Wayland. That was an oil
painting I did for a child's bedroom. This young
man was being named Waylon and his father was
big into old English stories and Waylon plays
a prominent role in many old English stories.
And so they wanted a painting of Waylon the Smith
to hang in a baby's room. I have to say that
is... That is a first for me. Most people don't
think of my art in children's bedrooms, I'd imagine.
But yeah, so I thought that was cool. And then
people get pieces done because a friend is named
Freya, so they'll want a Freya piece. Or sometimes
it's just certain collectors. will collect any
of the pieces I do based on, Scotty is pretty
common. There's not a whole lot of Scotty imagery
out there, but I've done her now, done one painting
and five or six drawings. So yeah, it varies.
And I guess it's just that over time, as I became
more and more known for doing Norse mythology,
People now seek me out or have found me online
or I mean the haba mall's coming up on having
been out now for almost 10 years. So wow What
an achievement. I think it was 2016 that we published
the haba mall. So yeah, nine years now so uh
That's a long time for people to own the book
and relate to the different pieces in that and
so then Think, you know, maybe they want something
um I also find with a lot of art collectors people
will often start by collecting prints, but then
they realize pretty quickly that you can fill
your house with prints really quickly. And so
they switch to maybe instead of buying a whole
bunch of art, they'll spend a little bit more
money to buy a drawing and then maybe over time
a painting. And so, yeah, it goes from there.
Also, you know, having done it as long as I have,
it's also an age thing. You know, people who
were 14 or 15 when I started, They're now 30
so That that that changes as well and when I
got my start I did zombie portraits at horror
conventions Was was what I did when I was trying
to first break into game art so I've now experienced
there's a lot of kids I did zombie portraits
of who find me online or message me that they
had this zombie portrait in their bedroom growing
up. Anyway, I find those people as well. I've
never heard of zombie portraits before. That
sounds cool, I must admit. The tagline I would
always say is it's like getting your caricature
done at the fair, but debtor. Yeah, you know
it was a time and I really got lucky with that
because I started doing the zombie portraits
in 2009 and walking dead hit television in 2010
and so there was a four or five year period there
where zombies were very in vogue and I happened
to be able to have a business going and yeah,
that was a Long time ago and it feels almost
like a different lifetime, but uh, you know,
they were fun and people enjoyed them and uh
now those people, you know are are growing up
or you know, We're all a little older and some
of them are into the north stuff i'm doing now
and and some of them aren't and that's fine You
know as you go through life you you shed certain
people and pick up new ones and i'd say that's
pretty normal Yeah Yeah, I mean I Going back
to the start of the first question about your
initial connection with Norse mythology, I relate
to you very strongly because I went to sixth
form college on my own and then I went to university
on my own. Even at primary school there was only
me and two other students in my year group, we
were a very small cohort. I went to one secondary
school and I went to the other and I just always
proceeded further west from where I grew up which
is around the lovely city of York. in North Yorkshire,
England. But I've always just been in books and
libraries, so I'm glad that you kind of like
found a source of companionship within books
and libraries, so that made me happy. I've always
been a big book lover, my wife as well. It's
actually one of the things that led us to make
the Habamal the way that we did is obviously
there's lots of versions of the Habamal out there,
lots of translations, but there at the time I
made it there weren't any other versions that
were just a beautiful book and so like our book
it has this this red cover and a gold emboss
for um the the title and everything and then
my wife being the designer that she is made sure
it was just laid out beautifully and all the
illustrations were displayed well and I've been
told over the years that Of course some people
use my book in ritual because it just looks it
looks nice, but it's also been featured in in
weddings for folks You know doing a Viking themed
or a pagan wedding and I don't know I just I
love books that that They don't they're not just
fun to read but they also have that visual component
where they they feel I don't know. I want to
say they feel real, but I like love That's really
cool. I know if you weren't so far across the
entire world, I would totally buy it. I can't
be as happy about it. But shipping places, isn't
they? I recently got asked for someone in England
what the shipping would be. I've calculated this
with only a couple of weeks ago. Sadly, my book
is $50 and shipping to England is also $50. That's
not me marking up the price at all. That's not
even that fast. That's like two or three weeks
shipping. It's not like it's like three days
shipping or something. I don't know if that would
even include the duty and taxes that are always
getting put. Oh no, you're responsible for that.
That adds to it all. I didn't even think about
that. It's the one thing that always put me off
sourcing from stuff from BioWare, which is where
my regular occurrence on this podcast, my, my
braggadoze inquisitor jacket hoodie from the
first BioWare shop before it got shut down and
then rebranded. It's been with me a long time
and it was the first and only thing I've ever
really bought from the States as such. There
was a time when I first started, actually when
I did the first Kickstarter, international shipping
was such a big part of it. It would not have
been the success that it was. I shipped So many
books to to England and of course to, you know,
the Scandinavian and Germany and even Australia.
Basically, I mean, Japan as well. There's a lot
of a lot of art art lovers in Japan that like
American art. And so, yeah, it was a huge part.
In fact, I'd say even like 20 percent of that
project sales came from international support.
In those days I could ship the book to England
for like fifteen eighteen dollars So I mean,
but it was when um the European Union started
doing the was it then where you had like a you
have to have a number in order to ship to certain
countries. Anyway, the governments of the world
grew wise to the fact that international shipping
was a great way to make money, and that they
weren't getting a piece of it, and so now they
are, and it is way more complicated. Yep, and
unfortunately a certain someone in a certain
position of power isn't helping that any better
right now. But we will not speak of that particular
person anymore. So we've talked a lot about Habermal.
I would love to learn more about how you got
involved creatively, of course, in depicting
the verses of the Voluspa, the prophecy of the
CRS. Oh, OK. So the Habermal had been out for
about two years. And you're probably familiar,
but for the people listening at home, the poetic
Edda, The first book is the Veluspa. The second
book is the Havamal. So I guess as I was reading
the Poetic Edda for what to do next, it seemed
silly to me to have done book two, but not have
done book one. Also, the Veluspa, I'd say the
Havamal is probably the most quoted set of poems
from Norse mythology. But the Velluspa is a very
close second and it contained I mean even I think
Snorri in the Prose Edda quotes the Velluspa
more than any other set of the poems so I You
know wanted to to do that and it was quite a
shift actually so You know talking about the
hava mall as as being a collection of of proverbs
or life advice The velaspa is a story. There
is very much an arc to the velaspa It it's rooted
in you know It starts as odin goes down into
hell to resurrect this giantess who's a great
seer And then he demands to know What it is that
can she prove her knowledge and so then she proceeds
to tell the history of the mythology or the cycle
of the Norse lore and then it gets to the point
where Odin's so impressed with her knowledge
that he showers her with with different gifts
and treasures and Then he says now that I have
paid you I want you to tell me of the future
and of course, that's when she famously tells
about Ragnarok and the death of Odin and his
fellows, but also the rebirth of the world that
will come after that. And so, with the Habamal,
there's, I think it's like 165 verses, and I
did 40 -ish, I think maybe 45 illustrations for
the Habamal. But with the Veluspa, I put on the
challenge of I wanted to illustrate all of the
verses. There's only 66, I believe, of verses
in the Velospa. It's somewhere, maybe 68, anyway,
right around that. And so I wanted to do an illustration
for each of the verses. The other thing that's
different is with the habamal, actually, I mean,
with all the art I'm doing for these books is
I start with ink blobs. So I'll create smear
of lightly watered down ink. And then for the
habamal, I would leave and go and meditate on
the verse for that day. And then I'd come back
into my studio and look at anywhere between 10
and 20 different ink blobs and try and figure
out which one was speaking to me. And then I'd
try to find a drawing inside the ink blob that
matched what the verse was trying to say. Whereas
with the Veluspa, because it's so much more narrative
story focus, I'd still do the ink blobs, but
I would do an ink blob specifically for that
verse. So, you know, with it starting with Odin
talking to the giantess, I'm still smearing around
shapes, but I kind of know, like, I need a giantess,
I need a little Odin guy, you know, maybe a guy
in a hood or a hat or something. And so I'm still
finding extra detail by letting the ink blobs
inspire me, but the Veluspa is way more narrative
focused. So, you know, when you get to a verse
that talks about Finris breaking free of his
bonds, you know, I need a picture of a wolf breaking
bonds. And so that's going to inspire what is
there. That's how I got started with it and then
it took me Quite a bit longer. I did the haba
mall in about six weeks all said and done, but
the veluspa Took me more like six to eight months
just to do the art for um Partly because I also
you know, I i've do it in order the haba mall.
I did jump around a little bit um But the voluspa
I I started with the introduction and then just
slowly worked my way through The other thing
that came of it too is is once I finished the
book Several painting or several drawings from
the voluspa inspired oil paintings that I went
on to do The voluspa has the verse about the
world tree something with water white is the
great tree wet. And it talks about the deeds
of men trickling down the tree. And so I did
this image of this drawing with the different
globes nestled in the tree and then kind of dripping
down into this cosmic pool of water. And that
inspired what I have to say is my most successful
painting, at least in terms of sales at the very
least, which is Jinderson's World Tree, where
I did a full color version of the different worlds
nestled in the tree, and the liquid from the
worlds is draining out of the tree, or draining
out of the worlds down the tree into the cosmic
well. And for me, what I took from that verse
and that image, is this idea that the fire and
ice collide to make the first rivers, the first
water, out of the first water grows the first
tree and all the nine worlds are nestled in that
tree and yet the deeds of gods and men and elves
and dwarves comes out of those worlds and trickles
down the tree into the well of fate, the well
of urd and that well then becomes what nourishes
the tree. And so I view it as kind of a cycle
of life image where, you know, we are birthed
within these worlds, but yet it's our deeds that
nourish the tree. And so I always put forth the
question of consider what deeds you do and how
does it nourish our tree? That's really beautiful.
That's really poignant actually. It does make
me think back to your wonderful skill of scaldic
poetry in a bit of a little RPG podcast we both
debuted. And this is how we met. Because both
of us, me and Sam, we played characters in Ian
Stewart Sharp, or as I call him, Mr. Vikingverse,
his Vikings and Valkyries podcast, which is nearing
its end. I think it's got one more episode to
go by the time this episode is out there, listeners
and viewers. So if you haven't watched it, listen
to it. Go check it out. I'll pop the link below.
He has actually, at the time of this recording,
dropped a nice summary of events or the main
reason why the world is so chaotic, to quite
explain why so many of us characters die. We
both have quite significant, maybe not significant,
but unique deaths between each of us. but it
was a lot of fun. I certainly enjoyed it and
I remember saying to you in that episode with
Ian that I will definitely have the online podcast
at some point and I have achieved my goal. So
you did it. As I often say to any people who
meet me that once we have even the slightest
connection on Norse myths or Vikings I say once
you know me you can't escape. I need people to
talk to about these things and this is why I
have this podcast, ladies and gentlemen. So with
the philosopher then, did that become a kick
-started book when you sought to publicate it
as well? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. One of
the realities of publishing a book is that it
costs somewhere around $10 ,000 just to print
it. And I don't know about you, but I don't typically
have an extra $10 ,000 that my wife is going
to be pleased about me spending on a book that,
especially with the first one, not even knowing
if it would be successful or if people would
want it. And so, yeah, we were able to raise
money on Kickstarter again with the Veluspa,
which paid for the publishing costs and the shipping
costs and then I managed to sell it for years.
I'm actually sold out of the Veluspa right now
and have been for almost a year now. I had 2
,000 copies, so we sold almost all of them, except
for the couple I tucked away from my own collection.
And so I do plan to release the book again at
some point in the future, but I'm uncertain what
printing is going to be like exactly. whether
I'd need an American printer. I've used American
printers. I've also used Chinese printers and
a Mexican printer. And so it's just hard to know
how all that's going to pan out. But I will probably
end up doing another Kickstarter for the re...
the revised version or the the new printing of
Velaspa, whatever that ends up being. But at
the moment, I'm really much more focused on finishing
up the Locacena project, which is what I've been
focused on for actually about a year now of doing
another book from The Poetic at a... But the
the flinting of Loki or is I like to call it
the the epic rack battle of the gods It is but
that's always struck out to me is a very particular
um Very almost human esque scene. I just almost
imagine it's like one big kind of like family
argument started off by the bad apple of the
family And there's one line that's always struck
me was when Odin was insulting Bragi, the good
historian, he called him, like, you're simply
mead bench decoration, Bragi. You just sit there
and look pretty. You have no real purpose in
that for an entire family or a pantheon. I don't
know why Odin gets you around. And I'm like,
that's a really good line, mead bench decoration.
It reminds me of Shakespeare and kind of like
making the beast with two backs in Othello, meaning
when Othello was having it off with his lady
love. And I thought that was equally a good line.
I was like, modern language sometimes just can't
be that kick -ass in verbal terms, really. I've
been actually shocked by some of the cut -downs
that Loki spits in the Lokasenna. The one that
got me is when talking about Njord, the god of
the sea, he actually says that Njord's sisters
made a privy of his mouth. And I was just like,
I was blown away about the implications of what
that would mean. And I just, I still can't believe.
And then, of course, I'm trying to think of like,
how do I illustrate that in a way that's not
just absolutely vile? But I also I can kind of
see the word play there, because sometimes the
stream is called a river. But a stream also refers
to what we do in the bathroom. And so I can see
that correlation of Njord being a river water
god, and then the word play of another way to
break water or make water. And and everything
that that's involved there, but also I with locus
Senate I like to imagine it as a play being performed
for a crowd and Similar to your Shakespeare reference.
I just have to imagine you know the the actor
portraying Loki stepping forward and pointing
at the actor playing Njord and then saying the
line about his sisters using his mouth as a privy
and the crowd just laughing and thinking that's
so, you know, hilarious. And that's, you know,
a lot of the back and forth. I mean, I just did
a verse where Odin and Loki are, they're going
after each other. you know, Odin calls Loki unmanly,
which of course in Viking society, what would
be worse than being unmanly? And so he's unmanly
for not just having children, but being the mother
of Slepnir. So, you know, a reference to that
story. But then Loki claps back with that that
Odin is unmanly because he dressed in women's
clothing in order to learn women's magic. And
so again, There's just something so funny to
me about the visual of, if you imagine these
two actors portraying, like, you're unmanly.
No, you're unmanly. And, like, the crowd reacting,
and almost like you would in, like, a rap battle
or a cut -down fight between comedians. You know,
people be like, ooh, and oh. I don't know. It
feels like it'd be such a wonderful theater experience
to see the play back and forth. There's also
a number of parts of the Lokasenna where it references
things that are not referenced anywhere else
in any of the other poems or sources for Norse
mythology, which makes the Lokasenna very unique
because, I mean, like, references to Fenris biting
Tyr's hand. I mean, that appears constantly.
like I said before about Loki being the mother
of Sleipnir and like there's certain references,
but then there's also a reference in the Lokasenna
to Tyr's wife asking Loki to be the surrogate
father of her children. And so that raises a
number of questions. The first of which is who
is Tyr's wife? We don't know her name. She's
not listed in the goddesses that Snorri writes
in the prose, Edda. Oh, yes. And then also, who
wants Loki to be the father of their children
and why? What is that story? Like that seems
like a whole misadventure that we just don't
know. That's all we have is four little lines
in the locus senna and that's it. and then they
move on to something else. To the kind of like
the position of Odin and Loki calling each other
unmanly, yet you think kind of like the actual
aspect of men propagating children would be considered
quite a high -profile aspect and it hears to
say oh I can't make children so can you make
children for me with my with my wife? Oh gosh
I mean I remember watching your reels of course
always happy when one pops up at the location
and I remember one specifically about when Odin
and Loki were having their spat about manliness,
where you kind of elaborate on the point that
Odin mentions how Loki was a milkmaid down on
Midgard. How has this not been used in modern
media at all at any point? Yeah, and there's
so much of the Lokasuna that's really quite funny.
And again, I feel the same way, the image of
Loki milking a cow as a milkmaid again, it's
just It's it's it's good. It's fun. Um, and it
I think that's what's different about the locus
Senna Is it is it feels like? The person writing
it is having fun with these stories and with
the wordplay, and it's very obvious even to a
modern reader. Whereas the Habamal, I mean, it's
quite heavy in a lot of its advice. There are
a couple of funny verses in there, particularly
when it talks about how to woo a woman. There's
a few parts in there that are quite funny, at
least by modern standards. But the Velaspa, though,
also not very funny. I mean, it's pretty weighty.
I mean, it's prophecy. It's not just the future,
but it's the twilight of the gods and the destruction
of the world. And so it's kind of hard to have
a fun romp with that particular apocalyptic concept.
Whereas the locus sena, through most of it, it
is that sort of like, it's just a drunken cut
down fight filled with wordplay and references
to many other stories, but a number of those
stories we actually don't have. So it's yet another
Norse riddle, which I think for a lot of people
is why Norse mythology is so much fun, is because
there are answers to a lot of things, but there's
a lot more questions than there are answers.
I want to say the word definition, but it's the
non -definitive version. There's no core textbook
like there is with Christianity, for example,
where it's been reviewed and peer reviewed and
said, yep, this happened, this happened. We're
not including that one. We don't know the selection
process or even the compilation process of these
stories, because the people who wrote them down
didn't leave their name. didn't live for the
time they lived, who they were, whether they
were male or female, whether they believed in
them, whether they didn't. It's something that
I'm touching on quite a lot in my own little
personal project of my W academic article, which
I'm still feverishly writing away on. It's the
modern interpretation of Brynhild, but also Valkyries
in general within kind of like modern media,
but particularly in fantasy fiction. So I've
been looking at how kind of like most people
Most people's image of a Valkyrie stems from
of course Wagner and the whole cycle of the rings
Opera series is done and that image is stuck
because people so visual especially involved
society It is also visual as you yourself said
earlier video is king Although I know and the
respect people who are listening to me on audio.
Thank you. Please don't go anywhere yet But yes
visuals are so strong whereas like back in the
area of of the Vikings living and believing,
all they had was stories. It was all words, their
imagination and their memory, of course, to remember
all these things. I mean, I was even regaling
my four -year -old, bless her, she'll probably
not remember this, but I will. Impressing her
with the fact that, did you know that many thousands
of years ago, there was a man in Iceland who
could remember all the laws, and there was a
lot of them. I couldn't give her an exact number.
She was very impressed. Not really at all. I
can't even remember why I was referencing it,
but sometimes I have thrown things at her of
Nordic stuff. But yeah, I mean, in terms of the
goddesses that you mentioned, like Tyr's wife,
there are so many female figures, not just the
goddesses, but kind of vulvas, witches, giantesses,
seeresses. I mean, we don't even know the story
of the giantess that Odin raised. We just know
she was dead at the time. I have no idea her
life and why she was who she was. Me calling
her a giantess, I'd say, is not 100 % certain
in the lore. So that's just the interpretation
I chose to go with. And there are scholars who
think that that's probably true, considering
a lot of the knowledge she has comes from a time
when there were only giants running around the
world. But even that is not 100%. I really liked,
though, the... visual image you present of the
Loki Center being a performance piece. I really,
really, really connect with that, especially
if only because it made me think back to, I think
it is one of the Thor films. I think it's the
second one where he goes back and finds that
Loki's been pretending to be Odin the entire
time. And you're doing a play. Loki gets a play
about himself. I thought, you know what? Yeah,
that actually fits. It really does. We do have
references to you know, in the mead hall culture
that reciting poems was considered a very manly
thing to do, particularly if you were drinking
to see who could recite the most poetry while
somewhat inebriated or just, you know, to perform
for the hall. I mean, the role of scald, you
know, and lore keeper. And so, yeah, memory was
something I mean it it's valued a great deal,
uh in in multiple parts of viking culture, uh,
but I mean even in modern culture we we value
people that have good memories and are able to
conjure information um, it's just now I guess
they'd be on jeopardy and instead of uh performing
in the meat hall, but um Anyway, yeah, i'm talking
about the valkyrie. I'm actually uh working the
painting i'm working on right now is um Another
depiction I've done of Valkyrie that I'm calling
Chooser of the Slain that specifically deals
with the idea referenced by the, I believe it
was Tacitus, the Roman historian about the women
that would go through the prisoners and select
the ones that were to be sacrificed after the
battle, and that they were called the choosers
of the slain. And then, of course, about eight,
nine hundred years later, we have references
to Valkyrie, meaning chooser of the slain, and
so there is this sort of curious question of...
you know, are Valkyries something different or
did it evolve from this role that the Romans
were observing? And then also there's the possibility
that it was just Roman hogwash and that they
were just making it up to make the Vikings seem
really dangerous or, you know, scary. And so
anyway, I just think it's an interesting parallel
to draw whether, again, we actually have the
actual answer or not. it is it's I think that's
what's always drawn me to the character of the
Valkyrie ever since I came across um I think
the first Valkyrie book I read was by a New Zealand
I think author she published it independently
called T. J. Ayer and she wrote a book for young
adults because I was a late teenager back then
called Dead Radiance and it the way she interpreted
kind of like the aspects of how Valkyries choose
the dead and the dying she put it into a very
modern context so that being an adult novel it's
about a teenager in today not back in the olden
days if they call it well it's the older older
days I suppose but she depicts them having sight
that can see when someone's about to die and
that person beginning to glow and when they get
really bright and that's it means it's there
their time they eventually die and then they
go and pick them. But her entire exploration
or her vision of Asgard and Odin and how the
Valkyries work and almost like the culture and
their roles was interesting and I thought you
know what I want to do more so I did start researching
more and a bit like you I started actually looking
at Norse mythology properly in my college years
doing my A -levels, I got out books in Norse
mythology, wrote down kind of like family trees
of all the gods, wrote down all the bits about
the world, legends, looked up and read but Valkyrie's
always kind of like, it was always small bits,
it was never a lot there, we have like a series
of names that are named in the Grimnest Marl
or the Poetic Header and they are often translated
as lots of battle -associated things, which makes
sense because they're often paired with scenes
of war and death. Although it's not made me think,
is there any Valkyrie that doesn't, I guess they
don't touch any of the dead, that dire straw
death, as they used to call it, or from illness
or from old age, because I assume they just sink
to the floor and go down to hell. Like it's a
very typical depiction of. But yeah, there's
this gap in knowledge. I think that's a real
boon to creatives such as yourself because there
is no rule book. No one can say, ah, they did
not have golden wings, or they did not have purple
wings, or they did not have wings at all. Because
some of them do, and some of them don't in the
many Valkyrie books I read, which is interesting.
Yeah, I typically do mine with black wings to
associate them with ravens. But they're often
commonly associated with swans. Obviously, you
know, Brunhilde turning into the swan and all
that. And I think those are the most two common
birds that they're associated with. But as far
as visual interpretation, I mean, even just look
at how many different ways have people done angels,
the winged creatures that do have quite a bit
more written about them. Yet, you know, there's
Thousands, you know, sometimes they have wings
of fire and you know Sometimes they're just pretty
white dove wings, but You know Sometimes they're
like, you know little cherub wings and so There's
so many different ways to dig into even when
things are described more but yes, you're absolutely
right that in in Norse mythology part of the
allure is getting to Fill in the details that
have been left out It's something I seek in my
work a lot actually is what I call the the in
-between moments You know, it's it's What's happening?
Not so much directly in the text, but what's
implied? That might happen next or right before
That that sort of thing Just looking for I think
it's because there's so many As we talked before
the the humanity of the Vikings comes through
That that's what I'm actually searching for in
my work is I want to connect with modern people
and I want them to look at my image and have
it evoke a Feeling that they understand from
their own life even if or even in spite of the
myth or story that it might be referencing. So
if you are a lore head, you're gonna look at
my work and probably see a little bit more than
someone who's not. But I try to just create beautiful
or evocative imagery that speaks to the human
experience. with an eye and a nod towards the
Norse lore, but more specifically to what it
means to be now. A common example, an example
I can give is I have a piece called Freya Resists
and she's golden and there's all these gnarled
hands reaching for her and and grabbing at her
and that piece was originally inspired by the
Veluspa where it talks about the giant who is
building the wall of Asgard desires Freya as
the prize. And of course we know that that's
not how that story goes but there's many many
stories throughout the lore that put Freya forward
as a prize When she doesn't want to be And I
know for me that painting was a lot about a time
in my life When I felt like all these different
things were pulling me in a thousand different
directions And I just it was all I could do to
keep standing up and pushing forward But the
piece I'm told by a lot of women who see it that
to them they identify as being a person that
a lot of people are physically desire or grabbing
at, be it everything from your kids tugging at
your pant leg all the way up to people who have
more of a perhaps nefarious interest in controlling
you or taking some piece of you. So it's a piece
that I do sell a lot to to women But it was that's
not why I made the piece But I think that that's
what's so cool about art is There's this almost
I don't know It's almost like telepathy where
I put an emotion into a painting that draws from
the emotion implied by the story that it's from
and this idea of Freya as the prize, and then
modern women see it and they see something else
that feels so human and makes them feel like
someone is seeing into their soul. And I just
don't know of any other medium where that's possible,
you know, outside of the arts. Because I didn't
talk to these people. I'm not explaining, you
know, when they see the image, and I see them
react, particularly if I'm at a place where I'm
displaying my art publicly, that's really powerful.
And that's just one example, but I find it's
important in my art to, you do want to answer
some questions, but you also want to leave space
for the viewer. to step into the work and finish
the story and make their own assumptions and
have their own feelings and their own emotional
reactions to things. Because what I really want,
aside from the connection, is I want someone
else to look at the painting and think of it
as theirs and want to take it home and put it
up on their wall and have it remind them of a
moment or a time in their life or something that
connects deeply personal. And the only way I
know how to do that is to bring my own personal
experience into the stories that I'm trying to
use as inspiration for the various images that
I make. That brings so true. on so many levels
and I know I personally have always been drawn
to pretty things and before my four -year -old
took over the second biggest room in the house
I did have my own Becky geeky corner which was
full of pictures of either framed comic books
I've had signed usually of Mighty Thor or Jane
Foster Valkyrie for example but of kind of like
of Norse arcs I supported a nice British artist
called Asa Wheatley who made this brilliant currently
on four volumes of a shield maiden comic anthology
and he works with different artists but he's
the writer behind it and it's amazing and I've
always kind of liked some of the pin arts that
we get and that's striking, that one's fearsome,
that one's emotional, that one's heartbreaking
and as you say it's nice that not only does the
mythology allow it to be moldable and adaptable
to different times and meanings and causes and
movements and eras of great significance, but
also you as artists allow us as consumers, viewers,
content, engagements, as I suppose, those who
engage with content, to add our own interpretation
and not feel that it's wrong or right, but make
it have that connection. And of course, art is
always about interpretation. I mean there's isn't
that a famous dude that decided to put a banana
on a wall in the gallery and people kept to kind
of oh look at that piece that banana speaks to
me but it just shows how we're always looking
for patterns or symbolism for meaning and yeah
again that's why I think that really partners
well with the gaps that we have in the world
as much as it painters especially I know me and
several other academics and scholars wish we
knew more about the female deities and the creatures
and those stories because there must have been
stories about them because people knew their
names. Yes. That those stories were lost but
we're grateful for the ones that have survived
and I'm sure a scald back in the 10th century
would never have thought that a thousand odd
plus years later the stories would still be told
although you probably could correct us on a few
things. So you've mentioned about painting Odin
and Fenrir and you say you've been working on,
is it a new portrait of Valkyrie or a new one?
Fabulous. Okay is there any other gods or goddesses
or north -west creatures that you have painted
or want to paint? Oh goodness, yeah I mean I
Don't like to reveal too much It's not just about
keeping secrets I actually can reveal a little
bit about the process with this question There
is a thing where when you when you talk about
something your mind feels like it's partially
done that thing and So I've grown very careful
about talking too much about things I might paint
in the future because sometimes I feel like I
already have and Then it makes me less motivated
to get the work out there So it can be quite
demotivating Because your your minds are weird,
you know, which is like But I mean I I'm always
looking at the different stories and I keep a
notebook of things I'm working on. The main thing
right now is I have actually finished all of
the art except for one piece I want to change
for the Locust Center. Really? Yeah. There's
65 verses for the LocoSena plus a pretty big
prose introduction and a prose outro. And I've
done illustrations for all of that. And so now
I'm in the process. So I spent the last year
doing those drawings and filming myself as I
was doing it. So now I'm in the process of releasing
that stuff out to the world because I find creatively
It's very hard to make something and then release
it too quickly. I need to let it kind of sit.
A lot of times you come back, or I come back
the next day. And I'm like, oh, that's not actually
done. I thought it was done yesterday, because
it was the end of the day, and I wanted to be
done. But now I'm back. I've slept on it. And
I need to revise some things. I'm sure all the
writers and anyone who has anything creative
in their job at all can relate to that feeling.
So it's no different with art. So I've learned
that I can release things too quickly. Now, the
other is also possible. You can. keep all your
secrets till the end of time and not show it
to anyone, and that's not good either. At some
point, you just have to say it's done and get
it out into the world. But at the moment, I'm
focused on getting the videos out for the Loca
Center. And, you know, it's roughly 60 pieces
of art, and I'm not even halfway done with the
videos yet. So... it will be something that consumes
me for quite a long time and ultimately my wife
and I are planning on doing another book and
doing a kickstarter for the locus center and
Releasing all of that stuff out into the world
as well and so if that's something people are
interested in my my newsletter is the best way
to be alerted when when that's all happening,
but I've been encouraged. I did a convention
about three weeks ago now, and several people
came up to me at the convention saying similar
to things that you've said as we're talking here,
that they enjoyed the reels or the shorts, and
that they were wondering when the book was coming
out. And so it's nice to know that people are
watching. A lot of times when I release stuff,
it just... feels like it goes off into the ether
and, you know, you don't never get feedback.
But it's cool that people are digging it. So,
you know, fingers crossed that funding works
out and printing works out and everything comes
together. But that's my main focus at the moment
is taking all of the art and then turning it
into an actual digestible product that people
can have and hold and enjoy. Cool. I'm going
to then pick you up a little bit about Loki,
of course, as a character, because he is definitely
kind of, he surpassed even Marvel's expectations
as a popular, popular god slash giant in that
Thor was a great popular character for ages,
of course, Loki was there. malicious, maleficent
villain in comics going back from the 1960s when
Thor first came out, but of course with Thor
Ragnarok and Tom Hiddleston's classic Britishness.
I don't know why he was Brits, we just seem to
do all the best villains. I don't know why, must
be the accent I always think. But he's certainly
become a popular icon of the pantheon, strangely
enough. although I'm sure if Oda was around he
would say otherwise or show his pleasure in some
form or another. So have you ever come across
people who've been fans of Loki in modern media
wanting to know more about Loki by watching your
reels and seeing how or asking you about Loki
said? Have you ever had that connection? So I
definitely encounter people that identify strongly
with Loki. I've done some paintings of Loki and
so I get asked what Loki stuff I have But it's
sometimes that comes from people who like Tom
Hiddlestaff and the movies or Hilton and But
I don't know because I've just as often had people
like be in a Loki costume uh from marvel at a
comic con and just walk past my booth and not
even look at it so you know there's definitely
people that are just into low -key marvel and
you know they don't care as much and then there
are others that the stories from marvel sparks
an interest in the real stories and the actual
lore um but i do see more and more Almost feel
like the people that are fans of Loki skew younger
as well But that's entirely conjecture on my
part. I don't know I've not done a survey or
anything but There is something about Loki that
appeals to Modern audiences, I don't know if
it's because he's He's thought of as misunderstood
by a lot of people, whereas in the lore, he ranges
from mischievous to outright dastardly and lying
and breaking promises and things that are quite
evil in the stories. But I think it's also there's
something about him You know changing shape changing
gender being both father and mother of monsters
and How that relates to modern understandings
of gender that I think people relate to Although,
I mean, the idea of God's swapping gender is
something that appears in a lot of different
mythologies. So that's not something that's unique
to Norse mythology. But yeah, I don't know. The
thing that... I like Loki. But I also am very
cautious of Loki. I do have a mischievous side,
and I think we all have had the experience, or
at least I certainly have, of getting involved
in a bit of mischief that really came back to
bite me in the end, and I should have known better.
And Loki seems to forever be telling that story
again and again and again. I find that I've never,
outside of the stories, I never feel particularly
like being involved with Loki. Like I wouldn't
want him as a business partner. I don't want
to sign any contracts with the guy. It seems
like it would be very dangerous. But there are
people drawn to, I don't know, that chaos. You
know Yeah, I'm not sure What do you see there
because you're you asking the question? Well,
I think it's because it's obviously We both have
had an affinity a passion for these stories for
a lot longer than Marvel have been telling stories
of Loki really because he's only been around
for the last 10 15 years Gosh, that does make
me feel old now. Speaking about meeting in the
movies. Yes, certainly in the movies because
that's where he's really struck a chord. But
I know, personally, after I discovered more of
the stories of the pantheon and their rise and
their fall, but of course, see how Loki and,
of course, members of his family are treated
because, yes, he does turn into a female horse.
He does give birth to Sleipnir. But he also has
other children, albeit monstrous children, he
has Hel, half dead, half alive, Henry the wolf,
Jörmungandr the serpent, and the fact that they're
all taken away from him, albeit not with his
legitimate wife, because his real wife is Cygni
and she has two sons, but they don't see much
of him because he's always off doing his own
thing, it just, it's definitely lent into the
sphere, the very growing sphere around Loki,
certainly within books I find, around him as...
not quite necessarily justified in wanting, literally,
to bring down the Church of the Gods, but they've
certainly gone... Like, practically misunderstood?
Yes, they've explored the tragedy of why he is
the way he is, and I think that's the big thing
that humanity always seems to want to do. We
don't just always paint people black and white,
but then we want to know the grey before... person
became the bad guy. I was at the Orbit Biking
Festival this February and there was a brilliant
storyteller there, a guy called Jason Buck, and
he told this wonderful old Icelandic tale set
in the 12th century, it was definitely after
Christianisation, being explained that his protagonist
doesn't switch from good to evil, it's a step.
by step towards evil and they're small steps
but they get you there eventually until you don't
realize you're evil and then that's it. That
was a really good expression of the transformation
of Loki from being the character of mischief
and causing trouble just for the sake of it to
being the avenger and bringing vengeance to gods
and causing Ragnarok and all that kind of thing.
So you kind of you're almost modern society in
some medium certainly is trying to uncover the
pity and the sympathy and the empathy, build
an empathy for him that wasn't there before.
Certainly in the original Thor Marvel comics
he's just dastardly evil right throughout with
a wicked laugh and cackles and master plans and
I will curse you Thor and bring down humanity
blah blah blah. It's a real switch and at my
debut conference at Stavanger last August there
was a wonderful academic called Kevin. I can't
remember your surname Kevin, apologies. But he
did a nice exploration of Loki's character transformation
in the Marvel TV series of Loki, particularly
in the second series. Now, I'm going to spoil
it for everyone because I haven't watched it.
Have you watched it? Yeah, I've seen it. OK,
cool. So then you'll kind of know that Loki at
some point becomes literally the god of stories,
the god of multiple endings, alternative endings.
And that really fits with his ability to disrupt
or change things. I thought that was... a really
clever way of seeing it. It especially brought
me back to another book that I read by Joanne
Harris because she's done two, not one, but two
retellings in fantasy fiction. From Loki's point
of view, in Loki's voice, he is pretty much the
narrator from start to finish and he has a sharp
tongue in that one as well and he literally describes
history as being his story and this is my story
which is why it's a mystery. So it's not the
old man, as in Odin tells the story, it's his,
and I just like how we are. It's almost akin
to the whole underdog persona. You don't want
the champion to always be the strong girl, you
want to be the one that actually overcome challenge,
overcome defeat, overcome the emotional capability.
Basically you don't want to root for the Goliath
because he's big and strong, you want to root
for David because he's the little guy he represents.
Like you mentioned Lord of the Rings, Samwise
Gamgee. He is literally the epitome of the common
human folk. And my first boyfriend, going back
to when I really was a wee teenager, he was quite
it's Lord of the Rings. I remember getting him
a VHS. Now for viewers and listeners who don't
know what a VHS is, Google it. It was a black
box. It's what films used to be on. Otherwise
known as a video cassette. And that was a really
interesting explanation of the history of Lord
of the Rings and the Hobbit as a story. They
did touch on how Middle -earth is just named
after Midgard. I was like, oh, it's got Vikings
in it. I like it now. So yeah, it was an instinct.
And of course, various characters in Lord of
the Rings come straight from the Poetic Edda,
such as Gandalf the Grey, Bilbo the Hobbit, Dorian
Oakenshield, and most of his company are all
named as dwarves in the Poetic Edda. The fact
that Norse mythology has infiltrated so many
creative forms, it's literally got a transmedia
entity. It just moves through time and space
where adversity and human imagination can take
it and it adapts to every era and time. It's
just phenomenal, as you can tell because I've
been puppeting. I certainly agree with your enthusiasm.
Yeah, it inspired, I mean, even, I mean, you
had mentioned Wagner earlier. I mean, I don't
know, like, I sort of think of Wagner as the
soundtrack to World War Two. And I'm certain
that Wagner didn't realize when he was writing
Flight of the Valkyries that it would be put
with that famous video of the planes flying in
and, you know, cue the music. But yeah, it's
just another example of that sort of ancient
Germanic culture inspiring the media of the time,
which happened to be opera. I believe that it
was Wagner that inspired some of Tolkien's interest
in The the Viking stories as well. So yeah, it
just keeps keeps, you know peeling back the layers
Because I'm wondering have you ever read much
non -fiction in terms of the study in adaptation
or indeed interpretation of Norse mythology?
Yes I'll be curious to know what books have you
read? Um, cash put me on the spot. I'd almost
need to go and grab my library. I I read the
One -Eyed God and the history of the Indo -European
Manor Bunda, which is a pretty famous dissertation
on the idea of Odin as a god of... young men
who are in a phase of life where they're going
out like packs of wolves in the woods and then
also connects the idea of the wolf god or the
dog as a symbol of death and where that comes
from. I read an academic paper talking about
Ullr and his connection to the Oath Rings. I
did a painting on this. There's a place in Sweden
called Ullave, which means Ullr's Ve. Ve is a
holy place. And so there's lots of place names
for Ullr, but very little surviving knowledge
of Ullr outside of like the god of the snowshoe.
But then there's also famously the reference,
I believe in the Heimskringle, that when Odin
leaves Asgard, Ullr steps forward as the god
of winter. And so if Ullr is king for a time,
that certainly implies a level of prominence
that he doesn't experience at the time the Prose
Edda is being written. But but referencing something
earlier, but anyway to go back in this Archaeology
study that they did they found I can't remember
there. It was like 30 or 60 Oath rings that had
been buried at all of them And so that the writer
was drawing a parallel to Uler as the holder
of the oath for that time period and also perhaps
Euler having a connection to the Sun and the
the disk of the ring being connected with the
shape of the Sun or the Sun wheel and I'd encourage
people to to look it up I actually reference
the paper on my website if you click on the image
of Euler the oath holder you can get direct connection.
I'm not remembering it off the top of my head.
But I've read a number of books and papers and
dissertations on the history, and there are paintings
of mine that are absolutely inspired as much
by the historic and archaeological side. of the
study of these things, as some of my paintings
are a bit more drawn to the fantastical and more
story -based side of them. So I found the book
that I wondered if you'd read, which is from
Asgard Valhalla by Heather O'Donoghue. That one
doesn't ring a bell. I recommend to read it.
It's actually, she brought it out as a second
edition last summer because obviously things
in modern media have changed a bit so she had
a lot to react in service. Literally the subtitle
is the remarkable history of the Norse myths
and it's like it speaks to my soul because it
says everything I think of and agree with and
more that I didn't know as well. So yes I do
recommend that to anyone who wants to have a
toe -dip as you say into the incredible adaptability
of Norse mythology. I will put a link or at least
I'll put the details down in the blurb below
for viewers and listeners. Gosh look at the time,
time is flying and we are indeed in different
time zones so at some point I need to get to
bed and Sam needs to go be with his family for
the evening so I will So to wrap this episode
now, I've quite happily talked to you for a lot
longer, Sal. Yeah, that was fun. Showing you're
not next door neighbours. Although you might
curse me after that, if that was the case. But
I really appreciate your time coming on to the
podcast this month and I wish you luck with the
rest of your artwork and of course bringing hopefully
a lucky center to the world. I will certainly
be throwing money at it as soon as you launch
that Kickstarter. I have signed up to your newsletter
so I look forward to learning more and I of course
encourage everyone to go check Sam Fiegel out
at fatefulscience .com. Thank you so much, Beggy.
This was very fun. I enjoyed it. You're a delight
to talk with. It's not too many people. Usually
when I start going on about Norse mythology,
my friends just sort of glaze over. I set this
podcast up because I have very few friends. I
mean, one of my mom friends is like, who's Thor?
How do we know about him? And I'm like, how do
we know about Thor? Gosh, where to begin without
one. So, yes. But I often find that once people
of North Midas connect, there is a very strong
connection and we all always seem to find each
other in various ways. Thanks so much to the
internet and podcasting. Here we are. So I am
pleased and honoured and really glad that you
joined me on my little humble pet project of
a podcast. It was fun. Thank you. Thank you very
much, Sam. We shall speak again soon. Bye, everyone.
Bye. Thank you very much for listening to this
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between
my special guests and myself. Please do check
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