WEBVTT 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.339 Welcome to Belhala Conversations podcast. I'm 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:23.339 your host, Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul 00:00:23.339 --> 00:00:26.800 Chaser Becky, and I am a proud Viking geek. I 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.199 fell in love with the history, culture and mythology 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:31.500 of the Viking Age and I have been on an endless 00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:35.500 quest for more ever since. Join me as I discuss 00:00:35.500 --> 00:00:37.859 all things North with those who have been inspired 00:00:37.859 --> 00:00:40.539 by Viking Age history and North mythology in 00:00:40.539 --> 00:00:42.920 their creative works or those who have studied 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.439 the sagas and archaeology and review how such 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:49.000 subjects are being presented to modern audiences 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.619 today. If you like Viking stuff you are welcome 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:56.079 in my Valhalla and I hope you stay. for the conversation. 00:01:11.019 --> 00:01:14.359 Welcome everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:17.780 episode 14 and for this month's episode, the 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.969 month of April, I am delighted to welcome A fellow 00:01:20.969 --> 00:01:24.989 RPG friend and Norse artist, Sam Flegel. Welcome 00:01:24.989 --> 00:01:28.670 to Valhalla. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate 00:01:28.670 --> 00:01:32.609 that. Would you mind introducing yourself and 00:01:32.609 --> 00:01:34.670 telling our guests, viewers and listeners about 00:01:34.670 --> 00:01:39.250 your wonderful Norse works? Sure. So I call my 00:01:39.250 --> 00:01:42.769 Norse series, Fateful Signs, which is basically 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:46.290 my love of Norse mythology expressed visually 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:50.769 over, gosh, over a decade now. And so I've done 00:01:50.769 --> 00:01:54.670 an illustrated version of the haba mall and I 00:01:54.670 --> 00:01:57.569 do oil paintings based on the various stories 00:01:57.569 --> 00:02:00.349 of the gods and goddesses. If you want to check 00:02:00.349 --> 00:02:03.709 any of that out, you can go to fatefulsigns .com 00:02:03.709 --> 00:02:06.909 and you'll see all of that. I have a newsletter 00:02:06.909 --> 00:02:08.849 where I let people know when new stuff comes 00:02:08.849 --> 00:02:12.229 out. I have a Patreon for those who want to really 00:02:12.229 --> 00:02:16.509 dig in. And then I post on YouTube and Instagram 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:20.789 and I even just started a new tik -tok. So I'm 00:02:20.789 --> 00:02:23.569 trying to be where all the cool kids are You're 00:02:23.569 --> 00:02:25.710 braver than me. I haven't dipped my toe in that 00:02:25.710 --> 00:02:29.409 sea I'm just getting my hang around Instagram 00:02:29.409 --> 00:02:33.849 reels. Let alone YouTube shorts I've been doing 00:02:33.849 --> 00:02:37.310 this now for 15 years as a professional artist 00:02:37.310 --> 00:02:41.169 I've really seen a change it used to be enough 00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:45.319 just to post a cool image on Instagram but these 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:49.900 days just looking at the numbers video is king 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:53.099 and so i'm just trying to be in all the places 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:55.580 where because you can make one video and then 00:02:55.580 --> 00:02:58.580 post it everywhere with very little difference 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:02.879 so anyway that's dipping my toe in the whole 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.439 video editing thing which completely honestly 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:08.360 it really changes how i work because it's not 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:10.240 just about sitting down to draw or paint now 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.800 i gotta make sure there's the The camera's in 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.960 the right angle and it's focused on the right 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.319 thing because I've definitely filmed myself drawing 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.139 and then you get it back and it focuses on the 00:03:21.139 --> 00:03:23.879 back of my head leaning into the photo rather 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.479 than the drawing. It's just, anyway, I've got 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.560 it all worked out now, but a lot of learning 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.300 this past year. I feel like when I set out to 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:36.400 be an artist, I never planned to be a video editor, 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.939 but here we are. Welcome to the modern world. 00:03:40.490 --> 00:03:43.969 Well those videos look very well done. I've always 00:03:43.969 --> 00:03:45.629 enjoyed watching your reels, especially when 00:03:45.629 --> 00:03:47.729 you talk your way through because of course you 00:03:47.729 --> 00:03:50.770 mentioned you've been painting for the Havomile 00:03:50.770 --> 00:03:54.169 and the Voluspa, which is the prophecy of the 00:03:54.169 --> 00:03:56.770 oracle, the CRS, that Odin raises from the dead 00:03:56.770 --> 00:03:59.090 to find out what's going to happen to him and 00:03:59.090 --> 00:04:02.289 the rest of his family etc. Of course the Havomile 00:04:02.289 --> 00:04:05.189 is the sayings of the High One. Odin's I think 00:04:05.189 --> 00:04:07.229 is directly all from Odin more or less is it 00:04:07.229 --> 00:04:11.539 not? Yeah, so har it's the sayings of har har 00:04:11.539 --> 00:04:15.379 is the high one and the high one is Odin so yeah, 00:04:15.460 --> 00:04:20.560 it's it's I always describe it as it's like Proverbs 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:24.399 from the Bible, but for Vikings or poor Richard's 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:28.720 almanac for the Old Norse That's a very good 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:31.810 way of describing it. I like that Yeah, you know 00:04:31.810 --> 00:04:34.009 the thing I love about the haba mall and I I 00:04:34.009 --> 00:04:35.610 talked to so many people about the haba mall 00:04:35.610 --> 00:04:38.290 because I have the books and I do comic book 00:04:38.290 --> 00:04:41.529 conventions and other Fantasy conventions. So 00:04:41.529 --> 00:04:43.810 a lot of people will see the book and go what 00:04:43.810 --> 00:04:47.230 is that? So I've gotten my spiel pretty good. 00:04:47.269 --> 00:04:50.850 But the thing I find that's so cool about it 00:04:50.850 --> 00:04:54.509 is Most of the life advice in there is still 00:04:54.509 --> 00:04:58.949 actually really solid advice in particular I 00:04:58.949 --> 00:05:02.509 really enjoy the section on drinking because 00:05:02.509 --> 00:05:06.269 it talks about how when your fellows party, you 00:05:06.269 --> 00:05:09.870 should party too, but there's also no shame in 00:05:09.870 --> 00:05:13.189 going to bed. In fact, often the worst things 00:05:13.189 --> 00:05:15.889 happen when you don't go to bed when you know 00:05:15.889 --> 00:05:19.089 you should. And I just think like, man, like, 00:05:19.170 --> 00:05:22.149 yeah, that's brilliant now, just as it was a 00:05:22.149 --> 00:05:25.970 thousand years ago or, you know. maybe even earlier 00:05:25.970 --> 00:05:28.529 than that considering it probably was an oral 00:05:28.529 --> 00:05:33.470 tradition before it was written down. I always 00:05:33.470 --> 00:05:37.550 find that stuff really cool, the idea that we 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:41.250 as people haven't really changed all that much, 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:46.050 but technology has changed a whole lot. Culture 00:05:46.050 --> 00:05:49.449 certainly has changed some, largely because of 00:05:49.449 --> 00:05:52.769 the technology, but at the end of the day, people 00:05:52.769 --> 00:05:57.189 were just people. I couldn't have said it better 00:05:57.189 --> 00:06:00.829 myself, really. That makes so much sense. I often 00:06:00.829 --> 00:06:03.009 wonder if that's the allure of the Vikings and 00:06:03.009 --> 00:06:06.790 the Viking Age. It feels so alien, so far removed, 00:06:07.149 --> 00:06:11.230 yet the ideals, the struggles, what we think 00:06:11.230 --> 00:06:13.209 people struggled with and tried to compete with, 00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:16.769 whether it was in love, marriage, power, politics, 00:06:18.250 --> 00:06:20.689 freedom, independence, that kind of thing, those 00:06:20.689 --> 00:06:23.930 are still... things that we practice live with 00:06:23.930 --> 00:06:27.529 experience today, very much so. Absolutely. And 00:06:27.529 --> 00:06:30.310 I also think there's another component, which 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:35.189 is if you come from a Germanic speaking people, 00:06:35.670 --> 00:06:39.170 so both of us, you know, speak English and English 00:06:39.170 --> 00:06:42.089 comes from Old English, which comes from Old 00:06:42.089 --> 00:06:45.629 Norse. And so there's so much of it just baked 00:06:45.629 --> 00:06:49.149 right into the language. that I know for me when 00:06:49.149 --> 00:06:51.250 I first started getting into Norse mythology 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:55.750 I would learn things and there's it almost feels 00:06:55.750 --> 00:06:59.569 like I don't know like coming home or a certain 00:06:59.569 --> 00:07:02.589 familiarity it's kind of for me it's also rooted 00:07:02.589 --> 00:07:05.850 in Tolkien that when you when you read about 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:10.149 the Shire and and Bilbo's adventures and you 00:07:10.149 --> 00:07:12.470 know Frodo and all that there's something about 00:07:12.470 --> 00:07:16.720 it that just feels like you've been there before, 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.420 or like it's not where you're from, but maybe 00:07:19.420 --> 00:07:22.139 your grandfather understood it, or something 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:26.399 along those lines. And I think Tolkien tapped 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.579 into that same thing that Norse mythology also 00:07:30.579 --> 00:07:35.389 taps into, which is that the roots of just, you 00:07:35.389 --> 00:07:39.089 know, home and hearth and adventure, but also 00:07:39.089 --> 00:07:43.389 rooted in family and community. And so many of 00:07:43.389 --> 00:07:46.230 those things are just right in the English language 00:07:46.230 --> 00:07:51.910 and in many Germanic speaking languages. That 00:07:51.910 --> 00:07:54.610 is very true. So touching on that point about 00:07:54.610 --> 00:07:57.170 how when you first experienced it, how did you 00:07:57.170 --> 00:08:00.750 first come across Norse mythology and what drew 00:08:00.750 --> 00:08:05.379 you in? So I I do get asked this question a lot 00:08:05.379 --> 00:08:09.899 and I Definitely thought about it a good bit 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:13.920 and it really goes back to college for me When 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.560 I was a young man, I went to Mississippi State 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.699 University, which for me was out of state. I 00:08:19.699 --> 00:08:24.060 live in Tennessee and So I went to a school where 00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:27.300 I didn't really know anyone no one from my high 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:31.519 school went went there and I was pretty lonely 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:35.539 So I would go to the library and at the time 00:08:35.539 --> 00:08:39.279 I was I was very interested in mythology and 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.840 world religion and so they had a huge section 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.340 like most college libraries do and I was just 00:08:46.340 --> 00:08:49.120 reading all of the mythologies not not just Norse 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:56.139 mythology, but Hindu religion and Christian and 00:08:56.139 --> 00:09:01.500 Jewish. My mother is a Methodist minister and 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:04.679 so I was raised in the church and so I had lots 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.659 of questions about the things that you get taught 00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:11.019 in church and the things that you don't get taught 00:09:11.019 --> 00:09:13.580 when you're raised in a religious household. 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:19.730 digging. And when I read Norse mythology, just 00:09:19.730 --> 00:09:22.149 like I was talking about earlier, it really felt 00:09:22.149 --> 00:09:26.570 like coming home in a way where the other mythologies 00:09:26.570 --> 00:09:31.309 just felt more like, I don't know, like, like 00:09:31.309 --> 00:09:33.909 stories. You know, like, like I read Chinese 00:09:33.909 --> 00:09:36.830 mythology, and I think, man, that's cool. But 00:09:36.830 --> 00:09:39.830 I have a hard time relating to the idea of a 00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:42.789 celestial bureaucracy that just doesn't hit me 00:09:42.789 --> 00:09:47.549 in the heart the same way as like, the feeling 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:50.669 of a bearded guy looking out into the mist and 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:53.710 wondering what creature could come out of that. 00:09:54.169 --> 00:10:01.590 To me, it just hits me more in the feels. It's 00:10:01.590 --> 00:10:05.750 always stuck with me after that. At that time, 00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:09.750 I was majoring in graphic design and I went on 00:10:09.750 --> 00:10:13.190 to have career in marketing. I worked as a graphic 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:17.289 designer for almost a decade and then I went 00:10:17.289 --> 00:10:21.070 on to be an illustrator and I worked as an illustrator 00:10:21.070 --> 00:10:24.970 for about five or six years doing art for game 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:27.669 companies before I ever did a painting based 00:10:27.669 --> 00:10:35.200 on Norse mythology. So there's almost a at least 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.340 a decade, maybe even 12, 13 years between that 00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:43.679 initial experience and then thinking about like, 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.440 I should paint those stories that I love so much. 00:10:47.779 --> 00:10:51.019 But even through that time, I'd still would read 00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:56.340 the various works and the history of it. And 00:10:56.340 --> 00:11:01.100 I would get recommended books by friends and 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:05.679 just all that. So it stayed with me. But not 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.580 not at the level that the the last ten years 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:10.919 where I've started doing the fateful signs project 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:14.879 I've really gone in the deep end and I I really 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:19.360 haven't come up for air yet. So Well, you seem 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:22.039 to be swimming well down there in that metaphorical 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.299 sea What made you decide to do fateful signs 00:11:26.299 --> 00:11:32.759 then how does that all begin so it I I was very 00:11:32.990 --> 00:11:36.029 blessed in the first part of my illustration 00:11:36.029 --> 00:11:39.590 career that once I started getting work professionally, 00:11:40.090 --> 00:11:44.750 it never seemed to stop for years. And so I was 00:11:44.750 --> 00:11:48.169 always moving on to the next job, the next project, 00:11:48.289 --> 00:11:52.570 the next convention, the next commission until 00:11:52.570 --> 00:11:58.350 I didn't. And I had a month where suddenly there 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:02.710 was just no work. And so, for the first time 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:07.110 in years, it was like, huh, what do I want to 00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:11.110 paint just for me? And so, the first painting 00:12:11.110 --> 00:12:14.490 I did in the Fateful Sign, what would become 00:12:14.490 --> 00:12:17.669 the Fateful Sign series, was Odin's Secrets, 00:12:17.769 --> 00:12:22.450 which is a painting of Odin holding Mimir's severed 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:26.269 head with Hugen and Moonin sort of flying in 00:12:26.269 --> 00:12:31.720 on his shoulders. At the time, I didn't realize 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.460 I started a series. It was just me doing a painting. 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:39.159 And after finishing the painting, it did pretty 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.659 well for me online. I even ran a Kickstarter 00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:48.779 where I sold prints of that painting. And at 00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:51.700 the time, I raised $1 ,000, which I thought was 00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:54.600 pretty cool. Back in, I mean, I think this was 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.360 like 20... 14 2015 so it was in the very early 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.720 days of Kickstarter. I Was one of the first artists 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.919 I actually knew to try doing art on Kickstarter 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:10.940 And Yeah, and then eventually I started getting 00:13:10.940 --> 00:13:12.659 work again, you know, it ended up only being 00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:17.460 a month or so with that little dry spot but from 00:13:17.460 --> 00:13:21.820 there I Just would start planning images where 00:13:21.820 --> 00:13:25.610 you know if I had free time I'd work on another 00:13:25.610 --> 00:13:29.149 Norse mythology image. And then I started getting 00:13:29.149 --> 00:13:33.129 commissions for Norse mythology images. And then 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:35.950 I started having enough of it where I was like, 00:13:36.049 --> 00:13:39.789 you know, I wasn't sure what to call it. And 00:13:39.789 --> 00:13:43.490 even calling it fateful signs didn't happen until 00:13:43.490 --> 00:13:48.009 I did the illustrated Habamal, where I actually 00:13:48.009 --> 00:13:51.450 specifically took a month off at the end of the 00:13:51.450 --> 00:13:53.879 year. So in the month of December, because I 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:56.759 wanted to know the Hava Mall better. And so I 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.580 thought if I did illustrations based on the poems, 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:02.299 for me as a visual learner, that would be a way 00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:06.240 I could learn the poems personally. And I posted 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.100 that online. And then that eventually led to 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:12.220 a book design. My wife's a graphic designer. 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.820 So she did all the layouts for the book for me. 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.159 And then Kickstarter. And it kind of snowballed 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.419 from there. But the quote comes from the Hava 00:14:22.419 --> 00:14:27.019 Mall. where it's the section with Odin's, it's 00:14:27.019 --> 00:14:30.059 talking about Odin hanging on the tree, and the 00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:33.860 next line is, "'Runes shall you find, and fateful 00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:37.440 signs, that the king of singers colored, and 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.179 the mighty gods have made.'" And so, the fateful 00:14:41.179 --> 00:14:44.580 signs is a reference to, and the reddening of 00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:48.200 the runes is a reference to adding blood to activate 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.029 the runes, which was a practice. That's thought 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:54.870 that um, the the seers who used the runes would 00:14:54.870 --> 00:14:58.629 do uh in order to add color color to them and 00:14:58.629 --> 00:15:03.490 so anyway, um Someone suggested to me that fateful 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:06.690 signs was a was a cool name and it had the reference 00:15:06.690 --> 00:15:10.830 in the in the lore and in the poems and uh, yeah, 00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:13.330 so for a long time I called it like fateful signs 00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:16.590 the viking series But eventually fateful signs 00:15:16.590 --> 00:15:19.250 just became enough of its own thing that I kind 00:15:19.250 --> 00:15:22.659 of dropped uh any of the other little bits with 00:15:22.659 --> 00:15:26.000 it but yeah that's that's where that came from. 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.580 Can I ask kind of like what kind of commissioned 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:33.480 work did you get in the field of or the area 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.299 of Norse mythology because I'm always curious 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:40.059 about who or what wants Norse myth as an image 00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:43.700 when there's so little imagery of it. Yeah so 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:48.440 um it it happened in two different ways um the 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:53.700 first is would get I was a guest at conventions 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.960 a lot and Part of the deal is often like they'll 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.860 pay for your hotel and your booth but they want 00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:02.799 you to do some art that they can then use on 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.100 like the the magazine or the the pamphlets they 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:08.740 give out at the convention they'll use it as 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:11.679 a Poster so there's kind of that that give -and 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.639 -take when you're an artist guest and so I was 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.379 an artist guest for a show called the Full Moon 00:16:17.379 --> 00:16:22.279 Tattoo and Horror Convention. And so, yeah, the 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.799 they they'd have like, you know, the actor who 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.120 was in the Jason costume would be there and sign 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:33.740 stuff and then tattoos. But it was werewolf themed. 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:36.840 And so the second piece I did in the series is 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.600 the death of Odin, where I did a picture of Fenris 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:46.200 as a werewolf holding Odin severed head in repeat. 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.379 So it's kind of a different take on Fenris that 00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:54.059 fit what they were doing, but also fit my desire 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:57.860 to do more Norse images. And then I was an artist 00:16:57.860 --> 00:17:02.460 guest at a big gaming conventions, Origins Game 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:09.460 Fair. And so I did a picture of Vidar with a 00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:14.109 metallic boot. that they used on their images. 00:17:15.150 --> 00:17:17.990 And then the other, so the first part of the 00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:21.490 answer is I would shoehorn other commissions 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:25.809 into Norse mythology theme. And then the other 00:17:25.809 --> 00:17:27.430 type of commissions I were getting were from 00:17:27.430 --> 00:17:32.009 private collectors who wanted an image. And so 00:17:32.009 --> 00:17:35.650 a friend of mine now, George, he used to commission 00:17:35.650 --> 00:17:39.450 a lot of my work and He wanted to see the binding 00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:43.529 of Loki. So when they take Loki beneath the earth 00:17:43.529 --> 00:17:48.750 and tie him to stones. Interesting. Yeah, if 00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:52.529 you want to check it out, it's on my website. 00:17:53.690 --> 00:18:00.049 But I did a very detailed depiction of it. where 00:18:00.049 --> 00:18:03.210 it actually has the one son who's turned into 00:18:03.210 --> 00:18:06.430 the wolf who is eating the entrails of his brother 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:09.690 and the entrails are being used to tie Loki down 00:18:09.690 --> 00:18:13.730 and Odin is tying Loki down while Thor is holding 00:18:13.730 --> 00:18:16.809 him in place and Scotty is placing the snake 00:18:16.809 --> 00:18:19.849 above his head and Sijin is in the background 00:18:19.849 --> 00:18:23.930 holding a bowl and crying as she looks on at 00:18:23.930 --> 00:18:28.930 everything that's happening. That piece was commissioned 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:32.410 by George, and he still has it in his private 00:18:32.410 --> 00:18:37.869 collection. And then from there, you know, it 00:18:37.869 --> 00:18:42.109 would just be me creating images I wanted. Now, 00:18:42.109 --> 00:18:44.730 these days, I think the most common commission 00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:48.630 I get is for tattoos, particularly since I did 00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:53.049 black and white artwork for the Hava Mall that 00:18:53.049 --> 00:18:58.470 lends itself pretty well to tattoos. And so Gosh, 00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:02.450 I don't want to feel like I'm bragging, but I'd 00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:06.529 say, you know, 20 to 30 or more people have my 00:19:06.529 --> 00:19:09.769 art tattooed on their body. And some of them 00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:12.130 are people I know and who have asked permission 00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:15.349 and other people just get it done. I mean, the 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:17.750 strangest, not the strangest, but I guess the 00:19:17.750 --> 00:19:21.029 most surprising story was I was at a convention 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:25.119 in Atlanta called Dragon Con and just To set 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.980 the scene we were going to a Mario and Luigi 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:31.740 rave and so it was a dance party where everyone's 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:35.940 in Mario My wife and I were just going with some 00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:37.759 friends so we were just dressed, you know normal 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.359 but I walked in and this guy goes Oh, man, you're 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:44.920 Sam Flegel and started taking off his shirt immediately 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.480 And so I was like, I don't know what's about 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.869 to happen here. And then he turned around and 00:19:50.869 --> 00:19:53.630 he had a full back piece of my drawing of the 00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:59.109 world tree from wow uh actually of odin being 00:19:59.109 --> 00:20:02.230 hung from the world tree from the hava mall uh 00:20:02.230 --> 00:20:07.130 that i uh and so yeah and i was you know blown 00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:11.710 away i got photos and uh anyway so that that 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.809 definitely happens um where you know people just 00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:18.769 think think it's cool and uh They want to get 00:20:18.769 --> 00:20:21.190 it tattooed, and then other people now want me 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:25.950 to design custom art in a theme or a character. 00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:29.990 Recently, I had a guy who really liked the image 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:33.349 I did of Thor from the Veluspa, where his legs 00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:35.970 are actually the goats, and he's holding the 00:20:35.970 --> 00:20:39.170 hammer. He wanted a piece of Odin to match that, 00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:42.630 so I did a piece where Odin is made up of... 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:46.670 the rings, ravens, and wolves actually kind of 00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:51.029 construct his body. I don't know for sure if 00:20:51.029 --> 00:20:52.390 the guy ever did it, but he was gonna get it 00:20:52.390 --> 00:20:56.230 as a forearm piece, so one on one arm and one 00:20:56.230 --> 00:21:00.769 on the other. Yeah, dedication. I don't have 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:06.150 any tattoos personally, so I always think it's 00:21:06.150 --> 00:21:09.890 interesting what people choose or what they feel 00:21:09.890 --> 00:21:15.920 connected to. Other thing people commission is, 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.119 I was commissioned to do a painting of Wayland 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:24.339 the Smith, the famous Smith who made Beowulf's 00:21:24.339 --> 00:21:28.519 armor and Siegfried's sword, and he's referenced 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:34.740 in the Poetic Edda as well, in the, what is it, 00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:42.880 the Voland section, so Wayland. That was an oil 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.660 painting I did for a child's bedroom. This young 00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:53.440 man was being named Waylon and his father was 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.319 big into old English stories and Waylon plays 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.420 a prominent role in many old English stories. 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:05.940 And so they wanted a painting of Waylon the Smith 00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:07.779 to hang in a baby's room. I have to say that 00:22:07.779 --> 00:22:10.839 is... That is a first for me. Most people don't 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.400 think of my art in children's bedrooms, I'd imagine. 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.059 But yeah, so I thought that was cool. And then 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:23.640 people get pieces done because a friend is named 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:28.859 Freya, so they'll want a Freya piece. Or sometimes 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:33.349 it's just certain collectors. will collect any 00:22:33.349 --> 00:22:37.430 of the pieces I do based on, Scotty is pretty 00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:41.490 common. There's not a whole lot of Scotty imagery 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:46.930 out there, but I've done her now, done one painting 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:53.089 and five or six drawings. So yeah, it varies. 00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:56.849 And I guess it's just that over time, as I became 00:22:56.849 --> 00:22:59.269 more and more known for doing Norse mythology, 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.220 People now seek me out or have found me online 00:23:03.220 --> 00:23:05.940 or I mean the haba mall's coming up on having 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:09.460 been out now for almost 10 years. So wow What 00:23:09.460 --> 00:23:13.160 an achievement. I think it was 2016 that we published 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:17.220 the haba mall. So yeah, nine years now so uh 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:19.160 That's a long time for people to own the book 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.440 and relate to the different pieces in that and 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.440 so then Think, you know, maybe they want something 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.910 um I also find with a lot of art collectors people 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:32.950 will often start by collecting prints, but then 00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:34.950 they realize pretty quickly that you can fill 00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:38.309 your house with prints really quickly. And so 00:23:38.309 --> 00:23:41.430 they switch to maybe instead of buying a whole 00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:43.710 bunch of art, they'll spend a little bit more 00:23:43.710 --> 00:23:47.289 money to buy a drawing and then maybe over time 00:23:47.289 --> 00:23:51.470 a painting. And so, yeah, it goes from there. 00:23:51.730 --> 00:23:53.630 Also, you know, having done it as long as I have, 00:23:53.769 --> 00:23:55.750 it's also an age thing. You know, people who 00:23:55.750 --> 00:24:00.069 were 14 or 15 when I started, They're now 30 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:06.309 so That that that changes as well and when I 00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:10.930 got my start I did zombie portraits at horror 00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:15.410 conventions Was was what I did when I was trying 00:24:15.410 --> 00:24:18.970 to first break into game art so I've now experienced 00:24:18.970 --> 00:24:22.029 there's a lot of kids I did zombie portraits 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:26.359 of who find me online or message me that they 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:28.680 had this zombie portrait in their bedroom growing 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:34.299 up. Anyway, I find those people as well. I've 00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:36.900 never heard of zombie portraits before. That 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:40.920 sounds cool, I must admit. The tagline I would 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.019 always say is it's like getting your caricature 00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:51.960 done at the fair, but debtor. Yeah, you know 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:54.500 it was a time and I really got lucky with that 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:56.240 because I started doing the zombie portraits 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:01.480 in 2009 and walking dead hit television in 2010 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:06.059 and so there was a four or five year period there 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:11.000 where zombies were very in vogue and I happened 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.099 to be able to have a business going and yeah, 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.619 that was a Long time ago and it feels almost 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:22.160 like a different lifetime, but uh, you know, 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:25.380 they were fun and people enjoyed them and uh 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:28.619 now those people, you know are are growing up 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:31.380 or you know, We're all a little older and some 00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:33.519 of them are into the north stuff i'm doing now 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.579 and and some of them aren't and that's fine You 00:25:35.579 --> 00:25:38.180 know as you go through life you you shed certain 00:25:38.180 --> 00:25:40.960 people and pick up new ones and i'd say that's 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:46.650 pretty normal Yeah Yeah, I mean I Going back 00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:49.390 to the start of the first question about your 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:52.829 initial connection with Norse mythology, I relate 00:25:52.829 --> 00:25:55.369 to you very strongly because I went to sixth 00:25:55.369 --> 00:25:58.069 form college on my own and then I went to university 00:25:58.069 --> 00:26:00.990 on my own. Even at primary school there was only 00:26:00.990 --> 00:26:03.490 me and two other students in my year group, we 00:26:03.490 --> 00:26:06.890 were a very small cohort. I went to one secondary 00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:08.910 school and I went to the other and I just always 00:26:08.910 --> 00:26:12.470 proceeded further west from where I grew up which 00:26:12.470 --> 00:26:15.509 is around the lovely city of York. in North Yorkshire, 00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:18.630 England. But I've always just been in books and 00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:20.849 libraries, so I'm glad that you kind of like 00:26:20.849 --> 00:26:24.829 found a source of companionship within books 00:26:24.829 --> 00:26:28.529 and libraries, so that made me happy. I've always 00:26:28.529 --> 00:26:32.990 been a big book lover, my wife as well. It's 00:26:32.990 --> 00:26:35.410 actually one of the things that led us to make 00:26:35.410 --> 00:26:38.849 the Habamal the way that we did is obviously 00:26:38.849 --> 00:26:41.829 there's lots of versions of the Habamal out there, 00:26:41.829 --> 00:26:45.750 lots of translations, but there at the time I 00:26:45.750 --> 00:26:48.410 made it there weren't any other versions that 00:26:48.410 --> 00:26:53.190 were just a beautiful book and so like our book 00:26:53.190 --> 00:26:56.930 it has this this red cover and a gold emboss 00:26:56.930 --> 00:27:00.710 for um the the title and everything and then 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:03.549 my wife being the designer that she is made sure 00:27:03.549 --> 00:27:06.109 it was just laid out beautifully and all the 00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:08.930 illustrations were displayed well and I've been 00:27:08.930 --> 00:27:12.069 told over the years that Of course some people 00:27:12.069 --> 00:27:14.789 use my book in ritual because it just looks it 00:27:14.789 --> 00:27:17.690 looks nice, but it's also been featured in in 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:22.069 weddings for folks You know doing a Viking themed 00:27:22.069 --> 00:27:25.869 or a pagan wedding and I don't know I just I 00:27:25.869 --> 00:27:29.250 love books that that They don't they're not just 00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:33.009 fun to read but they also have that visual component 00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:35.809 where they they feel I don't know. I want to 00:27:35.809 --> 00:27:43.940 say they feel real, but I like love That's really 00:27:43.940 --> 00:27:47.460 cool. I know if you weren't so far across the 00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:49.720 entire world, I would totally buy it. I can't 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.299 be as happy about it. But shipping places, isn't 00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:56.660 they? I recently got asked for someone in England 00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:59.779 what the shipping would be. I've calculated this 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:03.539 with only a couple of weeks ago. Sadly, my book 00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:09.700 is $50 and shipping to England is also $50. That's 00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:13.279 not me marking up the price at all. That's not 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:16.380 even that fast. That's like two or three weeks 00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:18.400 shipping. It's not like it's like three days 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:21.279 shipping or something. I don't know if that would 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.319 even include the duty and taxes that are always 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:27.960 getting put. Oh no, you're responsible for that. 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.079 That adds to it all. I didn't even think about 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:35.619 that. It's the one thing that always put me off 00:28:35.619 --> 00:28:37.579 sourcing from stuff from BioWare, which is where 00:28:37.579 --> 00:28:40.980 my regular occurrence on this podcast, my, my 00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:42.859 braggadoze inquisitor jacket hoodie from the 00:28:42.859 --> 00:28:45.180 first BioWare shop before it got shut down and 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:48.220 then rebranded. It's been with me a long time 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:49.660 and it was the first and only thing I've ever 00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:52.440 really bought from the States as such. There 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.400 was a time when I first started, actually when 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:58.299 I did the first Kickstarter, international shipping 00:28:58.299 --> 00:29:00.500 was such a big part of it. It would not have 00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:03.509 been the success that it was. I shipped So many 00:29:03.509 --> 00:29:08.470 books to to England and of course to, you know, 00:29:08.549 --> 00:29:12.190 the Scandinavian and Germany and even Australia. 00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:16.369 Basically, I mean, Japan as well. There's a lot 00:29:16.369 --> 00:29:19.130 of a lot of art art lovers in Japan that like 00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:22.769 American art. And so, yeah, it was a huge part. 00:29:22.849 --> 00:29:26.890 In fact, I'd say even like 20 percent of that 00:29:26.890 --> 00:29:31.450 project sales came from international support. 00:29:31.710 --> 00:29:35.630 In those days I could ship the book to England 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:40.589 for like fifteen eighteen dollars So I mean, 00:29:40.630 --> 00:29:45.009 but it was when um the European Union started 00:29:45.009 --> 00:29:49.470 doing the was it then where you had like a you 00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:53.059 have to have a number in order to ship to certain 00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:56.619 countries. Anyway, the governments of the world 00:29:56.619 --> 00:29:59.240 grew wise to the fact that international shipping 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.940 was a great way to make money, and that they 00:30:01.940 --> 00:30:04.640 weren't getting a piece of it, and so now they 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:09.140 are, and it is way more complicated. Yep, and 00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:11.119 unfortunately a certain someone in a certain 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.720 position of power isn't helping that any better 00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.589 right now. But we will not speak of that particular 00:30:17.589 --> 00:30:20.349 person anymore. So we've talked a lot about Habermal. 00:30:20.470 --> 00:30:22.349 I would love to learn more about how you got 00:30:22.349 --> 00:30:26.609 involved creatively, of course, in depicting 00:30:26.609 --> 00:30:29.750 the verses of the Voluspa, the prophecy of the 00:30:29.750 --> 00:30:34.089 CRS. Oh, OK. So the Habermal had been out for 00:30:34.089 --> 00:30:40.130 about two years. And you're probably familiar, 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:43.269 but for the people listening at home, the poetic 00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:46.910 Edda, The first book is the Veluspa. The second 00:30:46.910 --> 00:30:51.329 book is the Havamal. So I guess as I was reading 00:30:51.329 --> 00:30:54.170 the Poetic Edda for what to do next, it seemed 00:30:54.170 --> 00:30:57.269 silly to me to have done book two, but not have 00:30:57.269 --> 00:31:02.309 done book one. Also, the Veluspa, I'd say the 00:31:02.309 --> 00:31:06.269 Havamal is probably the most quoted set of poems 00:31:06.269 --> 00:31:11.200 from Norse mythology. But the Velluspa is a very 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:16.720 close second and it contained I mean even I think 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:21.420 Snorri in the Prose Edda quotes the Velluspa 00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:29.099 more than any other set of the poems so I You 00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:32.859 know wanted to to do that and it was quite a 00:31:32.859 --> 00:31:36.380 shift actually so You know talking about the 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:40.240 hava mall as as being a collection of of proverbs 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.259 or life advice The velaspa is a story. There 00:31:44.259 --> 00:31:48.180 is very much an arc to the velaspa It it's rooted 00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:52.279 in you know It starts as odin goes down into 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.200 hell to resurrect this giantess who's a great 00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:01.240 seer And then he demands to know What it is that 00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:04.160 can she prove her knowledge and so then she proceeds 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:09.000 to tell the history of the mythology or the cycle 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.759 of the Norse lore and then it gets to the point 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:14.980 where Odin's so impressed with her knowledge 00:32:14.980 --> 00:32:17.920 that he showers her with with different gifts 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:22.160 and treasures and Then he says now that I have 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.019 paid you I want you to tell me of the future 00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:27.880 and of course, that's when she famously tells 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:32.289 about Ragnarok and the death of Odin and his 00:32:32.289 --> 00:32:37.349 fellows, but also the rebirth of the world that 00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:43.789 will come after that. And so, with the Habamal, 00:32:44.390 --> 00:32:49.950 there's, I think it's like 165 verses, and I 00:32:49.950 --> 00:32:55.009 did 40 -ish, I think maybe 45 illustrations for 00:32:55.009 --> 00:33:00.000 the Habamal. But with the Veluspa, I put on the 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.099 challenge of I wanted to illustrate all of the 00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:07.900 verses. There's only 66, I believe, of verses 00:33:07.900 --> 00:33:10.740 in the Velospa. It's somewhere, maybe 68, anyway, 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:16.200 right around that. And so I wanted to do an illustration 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.059 for each of the verses. The other thing that's 00:33:19.059 --> 00:33:22.200 different is with the habamal, actually, I mean, 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.380 with all the art I'm doing for these books is 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:29.420 I start with ink blobs. So I'll create smear 00:33:29.420 --> 00:33:33.339 of lightly watered down ink. And then for the 00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:36.519 habamal, I would leave and go and meditate on 00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.299 the verse for that day. And then I'd come back 00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:42.660 into my studio and look at anywhere between 10 00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:44.779 and 20 different ink blobs and try and figure 00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:48.099 out which one was speaking to me. And then I'd 00:33:48.099 --> 00:33:51.619 try to find a drawing inside the ink blob that 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:56.910 matched what the verse was trying to say. Whereas 00:33:56.910 --> 00:33:59.869 with the Veluspa, because it's so much more narrative 00:33:59.869 --> 00:34:04.970 story focus, I'd still do the ink blobs, but 00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:10.170 I would do an ink blob specifically for that 00:34:10.170 --> 00:34:14.050 verse. So, you know, with it starting with Odin 00:34:14.050 --> 00:34:17.050 talking to the giantess, I'm still smearing around 00:34:17.050 --> 00:34:20.389 shapes, but I kind of know, like, I need a giantess, 00:34:20.389 --> 00:34:23.630 I need a little Odin guy, you know, maybe a guy 00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:26.929 in a hood or a hat or something. And so I'm still 00:34:26.929 --> 00:34:31.170 finding extra detail by letting the ink blobs 00:34:31.170 --> 00:34:36.429 inspire me, but the Veluspa is way more narrative 00:34:36.429 --> 00:34:38.170 focused. So, you know, when you get to a verse 00:34:38.170 --> 00:34:41.210 that talks about Finris breaking free of his 00:34:41.210 --> 00:34:45.849 bonds, you know, I need a picture of a wolf breaking 00:34:45.849 --> 00:34:50.010 bonds. And so that's going to inspire what is 00:34:50.010 --> 00:34:57.360 there. That's how I got started with it and then 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.920 it took me Quite a bit longer. I did the haba 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:04.059 mall in about six weeks all said and done, but 00:35:04.059 --> 00:35:08.440 the veluspa Took me more like six to eight months 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:13.400 just to do the art for um Partly because I also 00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:16.440 you know, I i've do it in order the haba mall. 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.969 I did jump around a little bit um But the voluspa 00:35:21.969 --> 00:35:25.469 I I started with the introduction and then just 00:35:25.469 --> 00:35:30.230 slowly worked my way through The other thing 00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:32.690 that came of it too is is once I finished the 00:35:32.690 --> 00:35:37.349 book Several painting or several drawings from 00:35:37.349 --> 00:35:41.150 the voluspa inspired oil paintings that I went 00:35:41.150 --> 00:35:46.889 on to do The voluspa has the verse about the 00:35:46.889 --> 00:35:52.260 world tree something with water white is the 00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:59.599 great tree wet. And it talks about the deeds 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.800 of men trickling down the tree. And so I did 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.059 this image of this drawing with the different 00:36:08.059 --> 00:36:11.179 globes nestled in the tree and then kind of dripping 00:36:11.179 --> 00:36:15.199 down into this cosmic pool of water. And that 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.510 inspired what I have to say is my most successful 00:36:18.510 --> 00:36:21.349 painting, at least in terms of sales at the very 00:36:21.349 --> 00:36:24.869 least, which is Jinderson's World Tree, where 00:36:24.869 --> 00:36:28.250 I did a full color version of the different worlds 00:36:28.250 --> 00:36:32.889 nestled in the tree, and the liquid from the 00:36:32.889 --> 00:36:35.849 worlds is draining out of the tree, or draining 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:39.670 out of the worlds down the tree into the cosmic 00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:43.530 well. And for me, what I took from that verse 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:49.929 and that image, is this idea that the fire and 00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:53.110 ice collide to make the first rivers, the first 00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:56.230 water, out of the first water grows the first 00:36:56.230 --> 00:36:58.849 tree and all the nine worlds are nestled in that 00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:03.769 tree and yet the deeds of gods and men and elves 00:37:03.769 --> 00:37:07.409 and dwarves comes out of those worlds and trickles 00:37:07.409 --> 00:37:10.929 down the tree into the well of fate, the well 00:37:10.929 --> 00:37:16.400 of urd and that well then becomes what nourishes 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.420 the tree. And so I view it as kind of a cycle 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:24.900 of life image where, you know, we are birthed 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:28.380 within these worlds, but yet it's our deeds that 00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:31.340 nourish the tree. And so I always put forth the 00:37:31.340 --> 00:37:35.039 question of consider what deeds you do and how 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:40.320 does it nourish our tree? That's really beautiful. 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.960 That's really poignant actually. It does make 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.320 me think back to your wonderful skill of scaldic 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:51.039 poetry in a bit of a little RPG podcast we both 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.840 debuted. And this is how we met. Because both 00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.099 of us, me and Sam, we played characters in Ian 00:37:58.099 --> 00:38:00.980 Stewart Sharp, or as I call him, Mr. Vikingverse, 00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:04.300 his Vikings and Valkyries podcast, which is nearing 00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:06.820 its end. I think it's got one more episode to 00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:08.860 go by the time this episode is out there, listeners 00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:10.760 and viewers. So if you haven't watched it, listen 00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:13.550 to it. Go check it out. I'll pop the link below. 00:38:14.150 --> 00:38:16.090 He has actually, at the time of this recording, 00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:18.809 dropped a nice summary of events or the main 00:38:18.809 --> 00:38:22.730 reason why the world is so chaotic, to quite 00:38:22.730 --> 00:38:25.070 explain why so many of us characters die. We 00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:28.449 both have quite significant, maybe not significant, 00:38:28.550 --> 00:38:34.320 but unique deaths between each of us. but it 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.880 was a lot of fun. I certainly enjoyed it and 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:38.760 I remember saying to you in that episode with 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.760 Ian that I will definitely have the online podcast 00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.920 at some point and I have achieved my goal. So 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:49.239 you did it. As I often say to any people who 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:51.340 meet me that once we have even the slightest 00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:53.679 connection on Norse myths or Vikings I say once 00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:56.800 you know me you can't escape. I need people to 00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:58.579 talk to about these things and this is why I 00:38:58.579 --> 00:39:05.780 have this podcast, ladies and gentlemen. So with 00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:10.159 the philosopher then, did that become a kick 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.639 -started book when you sought to publicate it 00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:16.159 as well? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. One of 00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:21.480 the realities of publishing a book is that it 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:26.360 costs somewhere around $10 ,000 just to print 00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:30.340 it. And I don't know about you, but I don't typically 00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:33.460 have an extra $10 ,000 that my wife is going 00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:37.079 to be pleased about me spending on a book that, 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:40.320 especially with the first one, not even knowing 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.940 if it would be successful or if people would 00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:47.400 want it. And so, yeah, we were able to raise 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:51.780 money on Kickstarter again with the Veluspa, 00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:55.320 which paid for the publishing costs and the shipping 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.250 costs and then I managed to sell it for years. 00:39:59.309 --> 00:40:02.469 I'm actually sold out of the Veluspa right now 00:40:02.469 --> 00:40:06.170 and have been for almost a year now. I had 2 00:40:06.170 --> 00:40:10.650 ,000 copies, so we sold almost all of them, except 00:40:10.650 --> 00:40:13.630 for the couple I tucked away from my own collection. 00:40:14.449 --> 00:40:17.730 And so I do plan to release the book again at 00:40:17.730 --> 00:40:21.989 some point in the future, but I'm uncertain what 00:40:21.989 --> 00:40:26.969 printing is going to be like exactly. whether 00:40:26.969 --> 00:40:30.610 I'd need an American printer. I've used American 00:40:30.610 --> 00:40:34.909 printers. I've also used Chinese printers and 00:40:34.909 --> 00:40:38.889 a Mexican printer. And so it's just hard to know 00:40:38.889 --> 00:40:44.409 how all that's going to pan out. But I will probably 00:40:44.409 --> 00:40:50.849 end up doing another Kickstarter for the re... 00:40:52.710 --> 00:40:56.690 the revised version or the the new printing of 00:40:56.690 --> 00:40:59.949 Velaspa, whatever that ends up being. But at 00:40:59.949 --> 00:41:04.110 the moment, I'm really much more focused on finishing 00:41:04.110 --> 00:41:07.989 up the Locacena project, which is what I've been 00:41:07.989 --> 00:41:12.150 focused on for actually about a year now of doing 00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:17.150 another book from The Poetic at a... But the 00:41:17.150 --> 00:41:20.250 the flinting of Loki or is I like to call it 00:41:20.250 --> 00:41:25.989 the the epic rack battle of the gods It is but 00:41:25.989 --> 00:41:28.690 that's always struck out to me is a very particular 00:41:28.690 --> 00:41:31.909 um Very almost human esque scene. I just almost 00:41:31.909 --> 00:41:33.869 imagine it's like one big kind of like family 00:41:33.869 --> 00:41:36.690 argument started off by the bad apple of the 00:41:36.690 --> 00:41:41.690 family And there's one line that's always struck 00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:44.989 me was when Odin was insulting Bragi, the good 00:41:44.989 --> 00:41:47.530 historian, he called him, like, you're simply 00:41:47.530 --> 00:41:49.809 mead bench decoration, Bragi. You just sit there 00:41:49.809 --> 00:41:51.809 and look pretty. You have no real purpose in 00:41:51.809 --> 00:41:53.889 that for an entire family or a pantheon. I don't 00:41:53.889 --> 00:41:55.869 know why Odin gets you around. And I'm like, 00:41:56.070 --> 00:41:58.849 that's a really good line, mead bench decoration. 00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:01.929 It reminds me of Shakespeare and kind of like 00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:04.630 making the beast with two backs in Othello, meaning 00:42:04.630 --> 00:42:06.630 when Othello was having it off with his lady 00:42:06.630 --> 00:42:08.750 love. And I thought that was equally a good line. 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:11.920 I was like, modern language sometimes just can't 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:18.860 be that kick -ass in verbal terms, really. I've 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:23.940 been actually shocked by some of the cut -downs 00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:28.500 that Loki spits in the Lokasenna. The one that 00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:33.280 got me is when talking about Njord, the god of 00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:38.559 the sea, he actually says that Njord's sisters 00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:44.349 made a privy of his mouth. And I was just like, 00:42:44.489 --> 00:42:52.630 I was blown away about the implications of what 00:42:52.630 --> 00:42:56.630 that would mean. And I just, I still can't believe. 00:42:56.730 --> 00:42:58.869 And then, of course, I'm trying to think of like, 00:42:58.929 --> 00:43:02.190 how do I illustrate that in a way that's not 00:43:02.190 --> 00:43:08.900 just absolutely vile? But I also I can kind of 00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:13.900 see the word play there, because sometimes the 00:43:13.900 --> 00:43:21.800 stream is called a river. But a stream also refers 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.400 to what we do in the bathroom. And so I can see 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.179 that correlation of Njord being a river water 00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:34.940 god, and then the word play of another way to 00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:38.380 break water or make water. And and everything 00:43:38.380 --> 00:43:41.940 that that's involved there, but also I with locus 00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:46.559 Senate I like to imagine it as a play being performed 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:52.360 for a crowd and Similar to your Shakespeare reference. 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.960 I just have to imagine you know the the actor 00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:59.880 portraying Loki stepping forward and pointing 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:02.760 at the actor playing Njord and then saying the 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:06.360 line about his sisters using his mouth as a privy 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:09.860 and the crowd just laughing and thinking that's 00:44:09.860 --> 00:44:13.699 so, you know, hilarious. And that's, you know, 00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:16.239 a lot of the back and forth. I mean, I just did 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:19.940 a verse where Odin and Loki are, they're going 00:44:19.940 --> 00:44:25.420 after each other. you know, Odin calls Loki unmanly, 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.599 which of course in Viking society, what would 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.719 be worse than being unmanly? And so he's unmanly 00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:35.039 for not just having children, but being the mother 00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.599 of Slepnir. So, you know, a reference to that 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:43.059 story. But then Loki claps back with that that 00:44:43.059 --> 00:44:46.340 Odin is unmanly because he dressed in women's 00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:49.820 clothing in order to learn women's magic. And 00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:52.659 so again, There's just something so funny to 00:44:52.659 --> 00:44:54.920 me about the visual of, if you imagine these 00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.039 two actors portraying, like, you're unmanly. 00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.539 No, you're unmanly. And, like, the crowd reacting, 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.099 and almost like you would in, like, a rap battle 00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:08.159 or a cut -down fight between comedians. You know, 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:11.900 people be like, ooh, and oh. I don't know. It 00:45:11.900 --> 00:45:15.699 feels like it'd be such a wonderful theater experience 00:45:15.699 --> 00:45:21.980 to see the play back and forth. There's also 00:45:21.980 --> 00:45:27.360 a number of parts of the Lokasenna where it references 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.559 things that are not referenced anywhere else 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:34.280 in any of the other poems or sources for Norse 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.679 mythology, which makes the Lokasenna very unique 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.300 because, I mean, like, references to Fenris biting 00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:44.559 Tyr's hand. I mean, that appears constantly. 00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:47.840 like I said before about Loki being the mother 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.400 of Sleipnir and like there's certain references, 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.820 but then there's also a reference in the Lokasenna 00:45:54.820 --> 00:46:01.219 to Tyr's wife asking Loki to be the surrogate 00:46:01.219 --> 00:46:07.179 father of her children. And so that raises a 00:46:07.179 --> 00:46:10.619 number of questions. The first of which is who 00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:15.000 is Tyr's wife? We don't know her name. She's 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.619 not listed in the goddesses that Snorri writes 00:46:17.619 --> 00:46:23.099 in the prose, Edda. Oh, yes. And then also, who 00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:26.280 wants Loki to be the father of their children 00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:29.699 and why? What is that story? Like that seems 00:46:29.699 --> 00:46:33.519 like a whole misadventure that we just don't 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.320 know. That's all we have is four little lines 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.510 in the locus senna and that's it. and then they 00:46:39.510 --> 00:46:42.210 move on to something else. To the kind of like 00:46:42.210 --> 00:46:44.190 the position of Odin and Loki calling each other 00:46:44.190 --> 00:46:46.289 unmanly, yet you think kind of like the actual 00:46:46.289 --> 00:46:49.690 aspect of men propagating children would be considered 00:46:49.690 --> 00:46:51.949 quite a high -profile aspect and it hears to 00:46:51.949 --> 00:46:54.710 say oh I can't make children so can you make 00:46:54.710 --> 00:46:59.070 children for me with my with my wife? Oh gosh 00:46:59.070 --> 00:47:01.309 I mean I remember watching your reels of course 00:47:01.309 --> 00:47:03.449 always happy when one pops up at the location 00:47:03.449 --> 00:47:07.679 and I remember one specifically about when Odin 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.019 and Loki were having their spat about manliness, 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:12.900 where you kind of elaborate on the point that 00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:16.539 Odin mentions how Loki was a milkmaid down on 00:47:16.539 --> 00:47:21.199 Midgard. How has this not been used in modern 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:26.159 media at all at any point? Yeah, and there's 00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.400 so much of the Lokasuna that's really quite funny. 00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:32.519 And again, I feel the same way, the image of 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:38.500 Loki milking a cow as a milkmaid again, it's 00:47:38.500 --> 00:47:44.280 just It's it's it's good. It's fun. Um, and it 00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:46.500 I think that's what's different about the locus 00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:52.960 Senna Is it is it feels like? The person writing 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:57.860 it is having fun with these stories and with 00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:02.699 the wordplay, and it's very obvious even to a 00:48:02.699 --> 00:48:08.019 modern reader. Whereas the Habamal, I mean, it's 00:48:08.019 --> 00:48:11.559 quite heavy in a lot of its advice. There are 00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:13.579 a couple of funny verses in there, particularly 00:48:13.579 --> 00:48:17.360 when it talks about how to woo a woman. There's 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:19.840 a few parts in there that are quite funny, at 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:23.539 least by modern standards. But the Velaspa, though, 00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:26.679 also not very funny. I mean, it's pretty weighty. 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:30.320 I mean, it's prophecy. It's not just the future, 00:48:30.380 --> 00:48:34.539 but it's the twilight of the gods and the destruction 00:48:34.539 --> 00:48:37.679 of the world. And so it's kind of hard to have 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:41.460 a fun romp with that particular apocalyptic concept. 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.380 Whereas the locus sena, through most of it, it 00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:52.210 is that sort of like, it's just a drunken cut 00:48:52.210 --> 00:48:55.829 down fight filled with wordplay and references 00:48:55.829 --> 00:48:59.389 to many other stories, but a number of those 00:48:59.389 --> 00:49:04.309 stories we actually don't have. So it's yet another 00:49:04.309 --> 00:49:08.369 Norse riddle, which I think for a lot of people 00:49:08.369 --> 00:49:11.929 is why Norse mythology is so much fun, is because 00:49:11.929 --> 00:49:14.369 there are answers to a lot of things, but there's 00:49:14.369 --> 00:49:16.750 a lot more questions than there are answers. 00:49:19.820 --> 00:49:22.360 I want to say the word definition, but it's the 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:26.739 non -definitive version. There's no core textbook 00:49:26.739 --> 00:49:28.880 like there is with Christianity, for example, 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:31.099 where it's been reviewed and peer reviewed and 00:49:31.099 --> 00:49:32.539 said, yep, this happened, this happened. We're 00:49:32.539 --> 00:49:35.860 not including that one. We don't know the selection 00:49:35.860 --> 00:49:38.539 process or even the compilation process of these 00:49:38.539 --> 00:49:41.219 stories, because the people who wrote them down 00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:43.099 didn't leave their name. didn't live for the 00:49:43.099 --> 00:49:45.239 time they lived, who they were, whether they 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:46.840 were male or female, whether they believed in 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:49.360 them, whether they didn't. It's something that 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:52.079 I'm touching on quite a lot in my own little 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.659 personal project of my W academic article, which 00:49:55.659 --> 00:49:59.079 I'm still feverishly writing away on. It's the 00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:02.440 modern interpretation of Brynhild, but also Valkyries 00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:04.619 in general within kind of like modern media, 00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:07.599 but particularly in fantasy fiction. So I've 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.440 been looking at how kind of like most people 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:13.219 Most people's image of a Valkyrie stems from 00:50:13.219 --> 00:50:17.719 of course Wagner and the whole cycle of the rings 00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.559 Opera series is done and that image is stuck 00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:22.579 because people so visual especially involved 00:50:22.579 --> 00:50:25.179 society It is also visual as you yourself said 00:50:25.179 --> 00:50:28.039 earlier video is king Although I know and the 00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:29.820 respect people who are listening to me on audio. 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:35.199 Thank you. Please don't go anywhere yet But yes 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:38.760 visuals are so strong whereas like back in the 00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:41.949 area of of the Vikings living and believing, 00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:45.750 all they had was stories. It was all words, their 00:50:45.750 --> 00:50:48.829 imagination and their memory, of course, to remember 00:50:48.829 --> 00:50:51.710 all these things. I mean, I was even regaling 00:50:51.710 --> 00:50:53.889 my four -year -old, bless her, she'll probably 00:50:53.889 --> 00:50:56.590 not remember this, but I will. Impressing her 00:50:56.590 --> 00:50:58.429 with the fact that, did you know that many thousands 00:50:58.429 --> 00:51:00.230 of years ago, there was a man in Iceland who 00:51:00.230 --> 00:51:02.110 could remember all the laws, and there was a 00:51:02.110 --> 00:51:04.250 lot of them. I couldn't give her an exact number. 00:51:05.369 --> 00:51:09.900 She was very impressed. Not really at all. I 00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:11.420 can't even remember why I was referencing it, 00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:15.400 but sometimes I have thrown things at her of 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:19.280 Nordic stuff. But yeah, I mean, in terms of the 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:21.019 goddesses that you mentioned, like Tyr's wife, 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:24.500 there are so many female figures, not just the 00:51:24.500 --> 00:51:27.619 goddesses, but kind of vulvas, witches, giantesses, 00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:30.539 seeresses. I mean, we don't even know the story 00:51:30.539 --> 00:51:32.860 of the giantess that Odin raised. We just know 00:51:32.860 --> 00:51:36.420 she was dead at the time. I have no idea her 00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:39.659 life and why she was who she was. Me calling 00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:44.079 her a giantess, I'd say, is not 100 % certain 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:46.380 in the lore. So that's just the interpretation 00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:49.639 I chose to go with. And there are scholars who 00:51:49.639 --> 00:51:51.840 think that that's probably true, considering 00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:54.659 a lot of the knowledge she has comes from a time 00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:57.500 when there were only giants running around the 00:51:57.500 --> 00:52:06.119 world. But even that is not 100%. I really liked, 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:10.170 though, the... visual image you present of the 00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:13.349 Loki Center being a performance piece. I really, 00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:15.449 really, really connect with that, especially 00:52:15.449 --> 00:52:17.570 if only because it made me think back to, I think 00:52:17.570 --> 00:52:19.590 it is one of the Thor films. I think it's the 00:52:19.590 --> 00:52:22.309 second one where he goes back and finds that 00:52:22.309 --> 00:52:24.269 Loki's been pretending to be Odin the entire 00:52:24.269 --> 00:52:27.110 time. And you're doing a play. Loki gets a play 00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:31.949 about himself. I thought, you know what? Yeah, 00:52:32.010 --> 00:52:35.530 that actually fits. It really does. We do have 00:52:35.530 --> 00:52:41.369 references to you know, in the mead hall culture 00:52:41.369 --> 00:52:47.809 that reciting poems was considered a very manly 00:52:47.809 --> 00:52:51.570 thing to do, particularly if you were drinking 00:52:51.570 --> 00:52:54.949 to see who could recite the most poetry while 00:52:54.949 --> 00:52:58.409 somewhat inebriated or just, you know, to perform 00:52:58.409 --> 00:53:01.889 for the hall. I mean, the role of scald, you 00:53:01.889 --> 00:53:05.869 know, and lore keeper. And so, yeah, memory was 00:53:05.869 --> 00:53:10.139 something I mean it it's valued a great deal, 00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:14.719 uh in in multiple parts of viking culture, uh, 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.800 but I mean even in modern culture we we value 00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:20.340 people that have good memories and are able to 00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:23.639 conjure information um, it's just now I guess 00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:26.559 they'd be on jeopardy and instead of uh performing 00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:30.179 in the meat hall, but um Anyway, yeah, i'm talking 00:53:30.179 --> 00:53:32.760 about the valkyrie. I'm actually uh working the 00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:36.599 painting i'm working on right now is um Another 00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.619 depiction I've done of Valkyrie that I'm calling 00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:44.800 Chooser of the Slain that specifically deals 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.980 with the idea referenced by the, I believe it 00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:52.860 was Tacitus, the Roman historian about the women 00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:56.000 that would go through the prisoners and select 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:01.860 the ones that were to be sacrificed after the 00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:04.260 battle, and that they were called the choosers 00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:07.860 of the slain. And then, of course, about eight, 00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:10.400 nine hundred years later, we have references 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:14.179 to Valkyrie, meaning chooser of the slain, and 00:54:14.179 --> 00:54:17.420 so there is this sort of curious question of... 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.219 you know, are Valkyries something different or 00:54:20.219 --> 00:54:22.920 did it evolve from this role that the Romans 00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.039 were observing? And then also there's the possibility 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:29.679 that it was just Roman hogwash and that they 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:32.539 were just making it up to make the Vikings seem 00:54:32.539 --> 00:54:37.440 really dangerous or, you know, scary. And so 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.559 anyway, I just think it's an interesting parallel 00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:43.579 to draw whether, again, we actually have the 00:54:43.579 --> 00:54:48.159 actual answer or not. it is it's I think that's 00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:50.400 what's always drawn me to the character of the 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:54.719 Valkyrie ever since I came across um I think 00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:58.860 the first Valkyrie book I read was by a New Zealand 00:54:58.860 --> 00:55:01.079 I think author she published it independently 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.320 called T. J. Ayer and she wrote a book for young 00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:07.239 adults because I was a late teenager back then 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:10.780 called Dead Radiance and it the way she interpreted 00:55:10.780 --> 00:55:14.420 kind of like the aspects of how Valkyries choose 00:55:14.420 --> 00:55:16.760 the dead and the dying she put it into a very 00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:18.960 modern context so that being an adult novel it's 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.820 about a teenager in today not back in the olden 00:55:21.820 --> 00:55:24.760 days if they call it well it's the older older 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:29.119 days I suppose but she depicts them having sight 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:31.440 that can see when someone's about to die and 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.360 that person beginning to glow and when they get 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:36.519 really bright and that's it means it's there 00:55:36.590 --> 00:55:38.329 their time they eventually die and then they 00:55:38.329 --> 00:55:41.170 go and pick them. But her entire exploration 00:55:41.170 --> 00:55:44.389 or her vision of Asgard and Odin and how the 00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:47.170 Valkyries work and almost like the culture and 00:55:47.170 --> 00:55:49.639 their roles was interesting and I thought you 00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:51.980 know what I want to do more so I did start researching 00:55:51.980 --> 00:55:54.300 more and a bit like you I started actually looking 00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:56.699 at Norse mythology properly in my college years 00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:58.539 doing my A -levels, I got out books in Norse 00:55:58.539 --> 00:56:01.420 mythology, wrote down kind of like family trees 00:56:01.420 --> 00:56:03.539 of all the gods, wrote down all the bits about 00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:07.579 the world, legends, looked up and read but Valkyrie's 00:56:07.579 --> 00:56:09.019 always kind of like, it was always small bits, 00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:11.539 it was never a lot there, we have like a series 00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:14.460 of names that are named in the Grimnest Marl 00:56:14.460 --> 00:56:18.739 or the Poetic Header and they are often translated 00:56:18.739 --> 00:56:22.800 as lots of battle -associated things, which makes 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:24.880 sense because they're often paired with scenes 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:30.860 of war and death. Although it's not made me think, 00:56:31.340 --> 00:56:33.960 is there any Valkyrie that doesn't, I guess they 00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.360 don't touch any of the dead, that dire straw 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.380 death, as they used to call it, or from illness 00:56:38.380 --> 00:56:40.400 or from old age, because I assume they just sink 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:44.280 to the floor and go down to hell. Like it's a 00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:47.500 very typical depiction of. But yeah, there's 00:56:47.500 --> 00:56:49.639 this gap in knowledge. I think that's a real 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.420 boon to creatives such as yourself because there 00:56:52.420 --> 00:56:54.599 is no rule book. No one can say, ah, they did 00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:56.719 not have golden wings, or they did not have purple 00:56:56.719 --> 00:56:58.440 wings, or they did not have wings at all. Because 00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:00.199 some of them do, and some of them don't in the 00:57:00.199 --> 00:57:02.480 many Valkyrie books I read, which is interesting. 00:57:03.079 --> 00:57:07.280 Yeah, I typically do mine with black wings to 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:12.800 associate them with ravens. But they're often 00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:17.210 commonly associated with swans. Obviously, you 00:57:17.210 --> 00:57:19.550 know, Brunhilde turning into the swan and all 00:57:19.550 --> 00:57:24.349 that. And I think those are the most two common 00:57:24.349 --> 00:57:29.489 birds that they're associated with. But as far 00:57:29.489 --> 00:57:32.190 as visual interpretation, I mean, even just look 00:57:32.190 --> 00:57:36.150 at how many different ways have people done angels, 00:57:36.670 --> 00:57:39.869 the winged creatures that do have quite a bit 00:57:39.869 --> 00:57:44.369 more written about them. Yet, you know, there's 00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:46.659 Thousands, you know, sometimes they have wings 00:57:46.659 --> 00:57:51.639 of fire and you know Sometimes they're just pretty 00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:57.659 white dove wings, but You know Sometimes they're 00:57:57.659 --> 00:58:01.119 like, you know little cherub wings and so There's 00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:04.420 so many different ways to dig into even when 00:58:04.420 --> 00:58:07.840 things are described more but yes, you're absolutely 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.480 right that in in Norse mythology part of the 00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:16.289 allure is getting to Fill in the details that 00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:21.429 have been left out It's something I seek in my 00:58:21.429 --> 00:58:25.130 work a lot actually is what I call the the in 00:58:25.130 --> 00:58:31.369 -between moments You know, it's it's What's happening? 00:58:32.030 --> 00:58:35.650 Not so much directly in the text, but what's 00:58:35.650 --> 00:58:39.929 implied? That might happen next or right before 00:58:39.929 --> 00:58:47.019 That that sort of thing Just looking for I think 00:58:47.019 --> 00:58:52.559 it's because there's so many As we talked before 00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:56.800 the the humanity of the Vikings comes through 00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:59.980 That that's what I'm actually searching for in 00:58:59.980 --> 00:59:05.019 my work is I want to connect with modern people 00:59:05.019 --> 00:59:08.860 and I want them to look at my image and have 00:59:08.860 --> 00:59:12.460 it evoke a Feeling that they understand from 00:59:12.460 --> 00:59:17.440 their own life even if or even in spite of the 00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:20.760 myth or story that it might be referencing. So 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:23.900 if you are a lore head, you're gonna look at 00:59:23.900 --> 00:59:27.579 my work and probably see a little bit more than 00:59:27.579 --> 00:59:34.340 someone who's not. But I try to just create beautiful 00:59:34.340 --> 00:59:38.719 or evocative imagery that speaks to the human 00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:43.340 experience. with an eye and a nod towards the 00:59:43.340 --> 00:59:48.460 Norse lore, but more specifically to what it 00:59:48.460 --> 00:59:54.380 means to be now. A common example, an example 00:59:54.380 --> 01:00:01.239 I can give is I have a piece called Freya Resists 01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:07.579 and she's golden and there's all these gnarled 01:00:07.579 --> 01:00:11.579 hands reaching for her and and grabbing at her 01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:14.300 and that piece was originally inspired by the 01:00:14.300 --> 01:00:19.400 Veluspa where it talks about the giant who is 01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:24.340 building the wall of Asgard desires Freya as 01:00:24.340 --> 01:00:28.460 the prize. And of course we know that that's 01:00:28.460 --> 01:00:31.639 not how that story goes but there's many many 01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:35.480 stories throughout the lore that put Freya forward 01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:41.460 as a prize When she doesn't want to be And I 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:45.159 know for me that painting was a lot about a time 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:49.000 in my life When I felt like all these different 01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:52.119 things were pulling me in a thousand different 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:55.599 directions And I just it was all I could do to 01:00:55.599 --> 01:01:00.039 keep standing up and pushing forward But the 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:04.659 piece I'm told by a lot of women who see it that 01:01:04.659 --> 01:01:11.690 to them they identify as being a person that 01:01:11.690 --> 01:01:15.670 a lot of people are physically desire or grabbing 01:01:15.670 --> 01:01:20.070 at, be it everything from your kids tugging at 01:01:20.070 --> 01:01:26.449 your pant leg all the way up to people who have 01:01:26.449 --> 01:01:31.630 more of a perhaps nefarious interest in controlling 01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:36.829 you or taking some piece of you. So it's a piece 01:01:36.829 --> 01:01:42.730 that I do sell a lot to to women But it was that's 01:01:42.730 --> 01:01:47.250 not why I made the piece But I think that that's 01:01:47.250 --> 01:01:51.769 what's so cool about art is There's this almost 01:01:51.769 --> 01:01:54.190 I don't know It's almost like telepathy where 01:01:54.190 --> 01:01:58.809 I put an emotion into a painting that draws from 01:01:58.809 --> 01:02:02.190 the emotion implied by the story that it's from 01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:06.800 and this idea of Freya as the prize, and then 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:10.340 modern women see it and they see something else 01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:14.900 that feels so human and makes them feel like 01:02:14.900 --> 01:02:18.719 someone is seeing into their soul. And I just 01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:23.840 don't know of any other medium where that's possible, 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:27.619 you know, outside of the arts. Because I didn't 01:02:27.619 --> 01:02:30.460 talk to these people. I'm not explaining, you 01:02:30.460 --> 01:02:33.849 know, when they see the image, and I see them 01:02:33.849 --> 01:02:36.989 react, particularly if I'm at a place where I'm 01:02:36.989 --> 01:02:41.650 displaying my art publicly, that's really powerful. 01:02:43.510 --> 01:02:48.750 And that's just one example, but I find it's 01:02:48.750 --> 01:02:53.090 important in my art to, you do want to answer 01:02:53.090 --> 01:02:56.929 some questions, but you also want to leave space 01:02:56.929 --> 01:03:01.309 for the viewer. to step into the work and finish 01:03:01.309 --> 01:03:04.909 the story and make their own assumptions and 01:03:04.909 --> 01:03:07.369 have their own feelings and their own emotional 01:03:07.369 --> 01:03:14.409 reactions to things. Because what I really want, 01:03:14.750 --> 01:03:18.389 aside from the connection, is I want someone 01:03:18.389 --> 01:03:21.110 else to look at the painting and think of it 01:03:21.110 --> 01:03:25.929 as theirs and want to take it home and put it 01:03:25.929 --> 01:03:29.400 up on their wall and have it remind them of a 01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:35.400 moment or a time in their life or something that 01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:38.659 connects deeply personal. And the only way I 01:03:38.659 --> 01:03:42.340 know how to do that is to bring my own personal 01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:47.800 experience into the stories that I'm trying to 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:52.119 use as inspiration for the various images that 01:03:52.119 --> 01:03:58.099 I make. That brings so true. on so many levels 01:03:58.099 --> 01:04:02.219 and I know I personally have always been drawn 01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:05.099 to pretty things and before my four -year -old 01:04:05.099 --> 01:04:06.780 took over the second biggest room in the house 01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:09.059 I did have my own Becky geeky corner which was 01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:11.480 full of pictures of either framed comic books 01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:14.260 I've had signed usually of Mighty Thor or Jane 01:04:14.260 --> 01:04:17.320 Foster Valkyrie for example but of kind of like 01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:20.420 of Norse arcs I supported a nice British artist 01:04:20.420 --> 01:04:23.559 called Asa Wheatley who made this brilliant currently 01:04:23.559 --> 01:04:28.480 on four volumes of a shield maiden comic anthology 01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:31.159 and he works with different artists but he's 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:35.139 the writer behind it and it's amazing and I've 01:04:35.139 --> 01:04:36.920 always kind of liked some of the pin arts that 01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:40.019 we get and that's striking, that one's fearsome, 01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:42.280 that one's emotional, that one's heartbreaking 01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:45.219 and as you say it's nice that not only does the 01:04:45.219 --> 01:04:48.179 mythology allow it to be moldable and adaptable 01:04:48.179 --> 01:04:50.860 to different times and meanings and causes and 01:04:50.860 --> 01:04:54.280 movements and eras of great significance, but 01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:58.860 also you as artists allow us as consumers, viewers, 01:04:59.539 --> 01:05:04.139 content, engagements, as I suppose, those who 01:05:04.139 --> 01:05:07.420 engage with content, to add our own interpretation 01:05:07.420 --> 01:05:10.820 and not feel that it's wrong or right, but make 01:05:10.820 --> 01:05:15.119 it have that connection. And of course, art is 01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:18.150 always about interpretation. I mean there's isn't 01:05:18.150 --> 01:05:20.809 that a famous dude that decided to put a banana 01:05:20.809 --> 01:05:23.269 on a wall in the gallery and people kept to kind 01:05:23.269 --> 01:05:25.650 of oh look at that piece that banana speaks to 01:05:25.650 --> 01:05:29.329 me but it just shows how we're always looking 01:05:29.329 --> 01:05:33.110 for patterns or symbolism for meaning and yeah 01:05:33.110 --> 01:05:35.730 again that's why I think that really partners 01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:37.849 well with the gaps that we have in the world 01:05:37.849 --> 01:05:41.099 as much as it painters especially I know me and 01:05:41.099 --> 01:05:43.400 several other academics and scholars wish we 01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:45.860 knew more about the female deities and the creatures 01:05:45.860 --> 01:05:47.539 and those stories because there must have been 01:05:47.539 --> 01:05:49.519 stories about them because people knew their 01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:54.500 names. Yes. That those stories were lost but 01:05:54.500 --> 01:05:56.519 we're grateful for the ones that have survived 01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:59.619 and I'm sure a scald back in the 10th century 01:05:59.619 --> 01:06:02.840 would never have thought that a thousand odd 01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:05.460 plus years later the stories would still be told 01:06:05.460 --> 01:06:07.099 although you probably could correct us on a few 01:06:07.099 --> 01:06:13.849 things. So you've mentioned about painting Odin 01:06:13.849 --> 01:06:16.889 and Fenrir and you say you've been working on, 01:06:17.269 --> 01:06:21.210 is it a new portrait of Valkyrie or a new one? 01:06:21.610 --> 01:06:24.670 Fabulous. Okay is there any other gods or goddesses 01:06:24.670 --> 01:06:26.849 or north -west creatures that you have painted 01:06:26.849 --> 01:06:35.829 or want to paint? Oh goodness, yeah I mean I 01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:47.639 Don't like to reveal too much It's not just about 01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:50.420 keeping secrets I actually can reveal a little 01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:54.159 bit about the process with this question There 01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:56.800 is a thing where when you when you talk about 01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:01.460 something your mind feels like it's partially 01:07:01.460 --> 01:07:05.960 done that thing and So I've grown very careful 01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:10.099 about talking too much about things I might paint 01:07:10.099 --> 01:07:13.280 in the future because sometimes I feel like I 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:17.960 already have and Then it makes me less motivated 01:07:17.960 --> 01:07:23.579 to get the work out there So it can be quite 01:07:23.579 --> 01:07:27.820 demotivating Because your your minds are weird, 01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:36.070 you know, which is like But I mean I I'm always 01:07:36.070 --> 01:07:41.610 looking at the different stories and I keep a 01:07:41.610 --> 01:07:46.409 notebook of things I'm working on. The main thing 01:07:46.409 --> 01:07:51.269 right now is I have actually finished all of 01:07:51.269 --> 01:07:54.690 the art except for one piece I want to change 01:07:54.690 --> 01:07:59.360 for the Locust Center. Really? Yeah. There's 01:07:59.360 --> 01:08:04.139 65 verses for the LocoSena plus a pretty big 01:08:04.139 --> 01:08:09.980 prose introduction and a prose outro. And I've 01:08:09.980 --> 01:08:13.760 done illustrations for all of that. And so now 01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:16.439 I'm in the process. So I spent the last year 01:08:16.439 --> 01:08:18.939 doing those drawings and filming myself as I 01:08:18.939 --> 01:08:22.300 was doing it. So now I'm in the process of releasing 01:08:22.300 --> 01:08:26.380 that stuff out to the world because I find creatively 01:08:26.909 --> 01:08:33.569 It's very hard to make something and then release 01:08:33.569 --> 01:08:38.630 it too quickly. I need to let it kind of sit. 01:08:39.750 --> 01:08:41.529 A lot of times you come back, or I come back 01:08:41.529 --> 01:08:43.930 the next day. And I'm like, oh, that's not actually 01:08:43.930 --> 01:08:45.970 done. I thought it was done yesterday, because 01:08:45.970 --> 01:08:47.770 it was the end of the day, and I wanted to be 01:08:47.770 --> 01:08:51.069 done. But now I'm back. I've slept on it. And 01:08:51.069 --> 01:08:54.130 I need to revise some things. I'm sure all the 01:08:54.130 --> 01:08:56.170 writers and anyone who has anything creative 01:08:56.170 --> 01:08:59.069 in their job at all can relate to that feeling. 01:08:59.729 --> 01:09:03.149 So it's no different with art. So I've learned 01:09:03.149 --> 01:09:06.750 that I can release things too quickly. Now, the 01:09:06.750 --> 01:09:09.479 other is also possible. You can. keep all your 01:09:09.479 --> 01:09:11.680 secrets till the end of time and not show it 01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:14.760 to anyone, and that's not good either. At some 01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:16.779 point, you just have to say it's done and get 01:09:16.779 --> 01:09:20.680 it out into the world. But at the moment, I'm 01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:25.079 focused on getting the videos out for the Loca 01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:30.479 Center. And, you know, it's roughly 60 pieces 01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:34.140 of art, and I'm not even halfway done with the 01:09:34.140 --> 01:09:38.159 videos yet. So... it will be something that consumes 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:42.039 me for quite a long time and ultimately my wife 01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:45.359 and I are planning on doing another book and 01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:48.739 doing a kickstarter for the locus center and 01:09:48.739 --> 01:09:52.279 Releasing all of that stuff out into the world 01:09:52.279 --> 01:09:56.279 as well and so if that's something people are 01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:59.300 interested in my my newsletter is the best way 01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:03.340 to be alerted when when that's all happening, 01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:07.699 but I've been encouraged. I did a convention 01:10:07.699 --> 01:10:12.880 about three weeks ago now, and several people 01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:15.720 came up to me at the convention saying similar 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:17.920 to things that you've said as we're talking here, 01:10:17.939 --> 01:10:21.060 that they enjoyed the reels or the shorts, and 01:10:21.060 --> 01:10:24.199 that they were wondering when the book was coming 01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:27.579 out. And so it's nice to know that people are 01:10:27.579 --> 01:10:29.640 watching. A lot of times when I release stuff, 01:10:29.779 --> 01:10:32.500 it just... feels like it goes off into the ether 01:10:32.500 --> 01:10:35.319 and, you know, you don't never get feedback. 01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:39.579 But it's cool that people are digging it. So, 01:10:39.579 --> 01:10:43.399 you know, fingers crossed that funding works 01:10:43.399 --> 01:10:47.600 out and printing works out and everything comes 01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:50.840 together. But that's my main focus at the moment 01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:53.939 is taking all of the art and then turning it 01:10:53.939 --> 01:10:57.060 into an actual digestible product that people 01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:03.630 can have and hold and enjoy. Cool. I'm going 01:11:03.630 --> 01:11:05.789 to then pick you up a little bit about Loki, 01:11:06.090 --> 01:11:08.710 of course, as a character, because he is definitely 01:11:08.710 --> 01:11:12.010 kind of, he surpassed even Marvel's expectations 01:11:12.010 --> 01:11:18.529 as a popular, popular god slash giant in that 01:11:18.529 --> 01:11:21.130 Thor was a great popular character for ages, 01:11:21.310 --> 01:11:24.039 of course, Loki was there. malicious, maleficent 01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:26.880 villain in comics going back from the 1960s when 01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:29.159 Thor first came out, but of course with Thor 01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.340 Ragnarok and Tom Hiddleston's classic Britishness. 01:11:33.460 --> 01:11:34.939 I don't know why he was Brits, we just seem to 01:11:34.939 --> 01:11:37.880 do all the best villains. I don't know why, must 01:11:37.880 --> 01:11:43.579 be the accent I always think. But he's certainly 01:11:43.579 --> 01:11:48.420 become a popular icon of the pantheon, strangely 01:11:48.420 --> 01:11:50.899 enough. although I'm sure if Oda was around he 01:11:50.899 --> 01:11:54.880 would say otherwise or show his pleasure in some 01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:56.600 form or another. So have you ever come across 01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:59.579 people who've been fans of Loki in modern media 01:11:59.579 --> 01:12:02.800 wanting to know more about Loki by watching your 01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:05.699 reels and seeing how or asking you about Loki 01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:10.079 said? Have you ever had that connection? So I 01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:15.180 definitely encounter people that identify strongly 01:12:15.180 --> 01:12:21.739 with Loki. I've done some paintings of Loki and 01:12:21.739 --> 01:12:28.300 so I get asked what Loki stuff I have But it's 01:12:28.300 --> 01:12:32.659 sometimes that comes from people who like Tom 01:12:32.659 --> 01:12:38.979 Hiddlestaff and the movies or Hilton and But 01:12:38.979 --> 01:12:42.039 I don't know because I've just as often had people 01:12:42.039 --> 01:12:46.579 like be in a Loki costume uh from marvel at a 01:12:46.579 --> 01:12:49.460 comic con and just walk past my booth and not 01:12:49.460 --> 01:12:52.199 even look at it so you know there's definitely 01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:56.000 people that are just into low -key marvel and 01:12:56.000 --> 01:12:59.140 you know they don't care as much and then there 01:12:59.140 --> 01:13:02.079 are others that the stories from marvel sparks 01:13:02.079 --> 01:13:05.380 an interest in the real stories and the actual 01:13:05.380 --> 01:13:12.409 lore um but i do see more and more Almost feel 01:13:12.409 --> 01:13:16.250 like the people that are fans of Loki skew younger 01:13:16.250 --> 01:13:21.689 as well But that's entirely conjecture on my 01:13:21.689 --> 01:13:24.270 part. I don't know I've not done a survey or 01:13:24.270 --> 01:13:29.930 anything but There is something about Loki that 01:13:29.930 --> 01:13:36.590 appeals to Modern audiences, I don't know if 01:13:36.590 --> 01:13:43.159 it's because he's He's thought of as misunderstood 01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:50.319 by a lot of people, whereas in the lore, he ranges 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:57.460 from mischievous to outright dastardly and lying 01:13:57.460 --> 01:14:03.359 and breaking promises and things that are quite 01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:10.439 evil in the stories. But I think it's also there's 01:14:10.439 --> 01:14:15.520 something about him You know changing shape changing 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:20.539 gender being both father and mother of monsters 01:14:20.539 --> 01:14:26.579 and How that relates to modern understandings 01:14:26.579 --> 01:14:33.460 of gender that I think people relate to Although, 01:14:33.460 --> 01:14:37.880 I mean, the idea of God's swapping gender is 01:14:37.880 --> 01:14:41.699 something that appears in a lot of different 01:14:41.699 --> 01:14:44.699 mythologies. So that's not something that's unique 01:14:44.699 --> 01:14:51.319 to Norse mythology. But yeah, I don't know. The 01:14:51.319 --> 01:14:59.590 thing that... I like Loki. But I also am very 01:14:59.590 --> 01:15:03.789 cautious of Loki. I do have a mischievous side, 01:15:03.949 --> 01:15:07.470 and I think we all have had the experience, or 01:15:07.470 --> 01:15:10.029 at least I certainly have, of getting involved 01:15:10.029 --> 01:15:12.909 in a bit of mischief that really came back to 01:15:12.909 --> 01:15:16.729 bite me in the end, and I should have known better. 01:15:17.310 --> 01:15:20.409 And Loki seems to forever be telling that story 01:15:20.409 --> 01:15:29.979 again and again and again. I find that I've never, 01:15:30.760 --> 01:15:33.460 outside of the stories, I never feel particularly 01:15:33.460 --> 01:15:38.000 like being involved with Loki. Like I wouldn't 01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:40.619 want him as a business partner. I don't want 01:15:40.619 --> 01:15:45.939 to sign any contracts with the guy. It seems 01:15:45.939 --> 01:15:49.279 like it would be very dangerous. But there are 01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:56.520 people drawn to, I don't know, that chaos. You 01:15:56.520 --> 01:16:02.920 know Yeah, I'm not sure What do you see there 01:16:02.920 --> 01:16:06.380 because you're you asking the question? Well, 01:16:06.380 --> 01:16:13.460 I think it's because it's obviously We both have 01:16:13.460 --> 01:16:16.840 had an affinity a passion for these stories for 01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:19.579 a lot longer than Marvel have been telling stories 01:16:19.579 --> 01:16:22.239 of Loki really because he's only been around 01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:27.409 for the last 10 15 years Gosh, that does make 01:16:27.409 --> 01:16:30.789 me feel old now. Speaking about meeting in the 01:16:30.789 --> 01:16:33.090 movies. Yes, certainly in the movies because 01:16:33.090 --> 01:16:36.670 that's where he's really struck a chord. But 01:16:36.670 --> 01:16:41.310 I know, personally, after I discovered more of 01:16:41.310 --> 01:16:44.689 the stories of the pantheon and their rise and 01:16:44.689 --> 01:16:49.109 their fall, but of course, see how Loki and, 01:16:49.109 --> 01:16:50.829 of course, members of his family are treated 01:16:50.829 --> 01:16:53.449 because, yes, he does turn into a female horse. 01:16:53.449 --> 01:16:56.649 He does give birth to Sleipnir. But he also has 01:16:56.649 --> 01:16:58.789 other children, albeit monstrous children, he 01:16:58.789 --> 01:17:02.970 has Hel, half dead, half alive, Henry the wolf, 01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:06.449 Jörmungandr the serpent, and the fact that they're 01:17:06.449 --> 01:17:08.949 all taken away from him, albeit not with his 01:17:08.949 --> 01:17:11.250 legitimate wife, because his real wife is Cygni 01:17:11.250 --> 01:17:13.550 and she has two sons, but they don't see much 01:17:13.550 --> 01:17:16.210 of him because he's always off doing his own 01:17:16.210 --> 01:17:21.340 thing, it just, it's definitely lent into the 01:17:21.340 --> 01:17:23.779 sphere, the very growing sphere around Loki, 01:17:24.140 --> 01:17:28.939 certainly within books I find, around him as... 01:17:28.939 --> 01:17:31.960 not quite necessarily justified in wanting, literally, 01:17:32.119 --> 01:17:34.920 to bring down the Church of the Gods, but they've 01:17:34.920 --> 01:17:36.819 certainly gone... Like, practically misunderstood? 01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:40.199 Yes, they've explored the tragedy of why he is 01:17:40.199 --> 01:17:41.939 the way he is, and I think that's the big thing 01:17:41.939 --> 01:17:44.220 that humanity always seems to want to do. We 01:17:44.220 --> 01:17:46.159 don't just always paint people black and white, 01:17:46.239 --> 01:17:49.239 but then we want to know the grey before... person 01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:53.699 became the bad guy. I was at the Orbit Biking 01:17:53.699 --> 01:17:56.420 Festival this February and there was a brilliant 01:17:56.420 --> 01:18:00.039 storyteller there, a guy called Jason Buck, and 01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:02.920 he told this wonderful old Icelandic tale set 01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:06.079 in the 12th century, it was definitely after 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:09.220 Christianisation, being explained that his protagonist 01:18:09.220 --> 01:18:13.539 doesn't switch from good to evil, it's a step. 01:18:13.710 --> 01:18:16.609 by step towards evil and they're small steps 01:18:16.609 --> 01:18:18.649 but they get you there eventually until you don't 01:18:18.649 --> 01:18:21.750 realize you're evil and then that's it. That 01:18:21.750 --> 01:18:24.970 was a really good expression of the transformation 01:18:24.970 --> 01:18:28.050 of Loki from being the character of mischief 01:18:28.050 --> 01:18:30.170 and causing trouble just for the sake of it to 01:18:30.170 --> 01:18:33.649 being the avenger and bringing vengeance to gods 01:18:33.649 --> 01:18:35.789 and causing Ragnarok and all that kind of thing. 01:18:36.010 --> 01:18:40.229 So you kind of you're almost modern society in 01:18:40.229 --> 01:18:44.640 some medium certainly is trying to uncover the 01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:46.720 pity and the sympathy and the empathy, build 01:18:46.720 --> 01:18:49.739 an empathy for him that wasn't there before. 01:18:49.739 --> 01:18:51.880 Certainly in the original Thor Marvel comics 01:18:51.880 --> 01:18:53.819 he's just dastardly evil right throughout with 01:18:53.819 --> 01:18:56.420 a wicked laugh and cackles and master plans and 01:18:56.420 --> 01:18:58.939 I will curse you Thor and bring down humanity 01:18:58.939 --> 01:19:03.119 blah blah blah. It's a real switch and at my 01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:06.159 debut conference at Stavanger last August there 01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:10.000 was a wonderful academic called Kevin. I can't 01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:12.659 remember your surname Kevin, apologies. But he 01:19:12.659 --> 01:19:17.159 did a nice exploration of Loki's character transformation 01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:20.159 in the Marvel TV series of Loki, particularly 01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:22.399 in the second series. Now, I'm going to spoil 01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:24.279 it for everyone because I haven't watched it. 01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:28.140 Have you watched it? Yeah, I've seen it. OK, 01:19:28.180 --> 01:19:29.939 cool. So then you'll kind of know that Loki at 01:19:29.939 --> 01:19:32.260 some point becomes literally the god of stories, 01:19:32.439 --> 01:19:34.899 the god of multiple endings, alternative endings. 01:19:35.300 --> 01:19:38.420 And that really fits with his ability to disrupt 01:19:38.420 --> 01:19:41.819 or change things. I thought that was... a really 01:19:41.819 --> 01:19:45.279 clever way of seeing it. It especially brought 01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:48.760 me back to another book that I read by Joanne 01:19:48.760 --> 01:19:51.380 Harris because she's done two, not one, but two 01:19:51.380 --> 01:19:54.140 retellings in fantasy fiction. From Loki's point 01:19:54.140 --> 01:19:56.380 of view, in Loki's voice, he is pretty much the 01:19:56.380 --> 01:19:59.359 narrator from start to finish and he has a sharp 01:19:59.359 --> 01:20:03.359 tongue in that one as well and he literally describes 01:20:03.359 --> 01:20:07.539 history as being his story and this is my story 01:20:07.539 --> 01:20:10.949 which is why it's a mystery. So it's not the 01:20:10.949 --> 01:20:12.949 old man, as in Odin tells the story, it's his, 01:20:13.029 --> 01:20:17.470 and I just like how we are. It's almost akin 01:20:17.470 --> 01:20:20.489 to the whole underdog persona. You don't want 01:20:20.489 --> 01:20:22.170 the champion to always be the strong girl, you 01:20:22.170 --> 01:20:24.609 want to be the one that actually overcome challenge, 01:20:25.829 --> 01:20:28.350 overcome defeat, overcome the emotional capability. 01:20:29.069 --> 01:20:30.750 Basically you don't want to root for the Goliath 01:20:30.750 --> 01:20:31.909 because he's big and strong, you want to root 01:20:31.909 --> 01:20:33.689 for David because he's the little guy he represents. 01:20:34.210 --> 01:20:36.609 Like you mentioned Lord of the Rings, Samwise 01:20:36.609 --> 01:20:40.680 Gamgee. He is literally the epitome of the common 01:20:40.680 --> 01:20:44.479 human folk. And my first boyfriend, going back 01:20:44.479 --> 01:20:48.199 to when I really was a wee teenager, he was quite 01:20:48.199 --> 01:20:50.100 it's Lord of the Rings. I remember getting him 01:20:50.100 --> 01:20:52.659 a VHS. Now for viewers and listeners who don't 01:20:52.659 --> 01:20:55.199 know what a VHS is, Google it. It was a black 01:20:55.199 --> 01:20:59.199 box. It's what films used to be on. Otherwise 01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:02.720 known as a video cassette. And that was a really 01:21:02.720 --> 01:21:07.760 interesting explanation of the history of Lord 01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:11.199 of the Rings and the Hobbit as a story. They 01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:13.899 did touch on how Middle -earth is just named 01:21:13.899 --> 01:21:16.039 after Midgard. I was like, oh, it's got Vikings 01:21:16.039 --> 01:21:22.239 in it. I like it now. So yeah, it was an instinct. 01:21:22.460 --> 01:21:25.119 And of course, various characters in Lord of 01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:27.020 the Rings come straight from the Poetic Edda, 01:21:27.119 --> 01:21:29.779 such as Gandalf the Grey, Bilbo the Hobbit, Dorian 01:21:29.779 --> 01:21:32.060 Oakenshield, and most of his company are all 01:21:32.060 --> 01:21:37.390 named as dwarves in the Poetic Edda. The fact 01:21:37.390 --> 01:21:40.949 that Norse mythology has infiltrated so many 01:21:40.949 --> 01:21:44.909 creative forms, it's literally got a transmedia 01:21:44.909 --> 01:21:47.909 entity. It just moves through time and space 01:21:47.909 --> 01:21:51.069 where adversity and human imagination can take 01:21:51.069 --> 01:21:53.550 it and it adapts to every era and time. It's 01:21:53.550 --> 01:21:56.229 just phenomenal, as you can tell because I've 01:21:56.229 --> 01:22:03.029 been puppeting. I certainly agree with your enthusiasm. 01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:10.399 Yeah, it inspired, I mean, even, I mean, you 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:15.300 had mentioned Wagner earlier. I mean, I don't 01:22:15.300 --> 01:22:18.340 know, like, I sort of think of Wagner as the 01:22:18.340 --> 01:22:22.880 soundtrack to World War Two. And I'm certain 01:22:22.880 --> 01:22:26.039 that Wagner didn't realize when he was writing 01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:28.460 Flight of the Valkyries that it would be put 01:22:28.460 --> 01:22:32.359 with that famous video of the planes flying in 01:22:32.359 --> 01:22:38.329 and, you know, cue the music. But yeah, it's 01:22:38.329 --> 01:22:41.750 just another example of that sort of ancient 01:22:41.750 --> 01:22:47.449 Germanic culture inspiring the media of the time, 01:22:47.489 --> 01:22:55.449 which happened to be opera. I believe that it 01:22:55.449 --> 01:23:00.210 was Wagner that inspired some of Tolkien's interest 01:23:00.210 --> 01:23:06.430 in The the Viking stories as well. So yeah, it 01:23:06.430 --> 01:23:10.149 just keeps keeps, you know peeling back the layers 01:23:10.149 --> 01:23:14.090 Because I'm wondering have you ever read much 01:23:14.090 --> 01:23:16.609 non -fiction in terms of the study in adaptation 01:23:16.609 --> 01:23:18.829 or indeed interpretation of Norse mythology? 01:23:19.810 --> 01:23:23.029 Yes I'll be curious to know what books have you 01:23:23.029 --> 01:23:27.789 read? Um, cash put me on the spot. I'd almost 01:23:27.789 --> 01:23:42.699 need to go and grab my library. I I read the 01:23:42.699 --> 01:23:47.220 One -Eyed God and the history of the Indo -European 01:23:47.220 --> 01:23:55.359 Manor Bunda, which is a pretty famous dissertation 01:23:55.359 --> 01:24:02.909 on the idea of Odin as a god of... young men 01:24:02.909 --> 01:24:10.550 who are in a phase of life where they're going 01:24:10.550 --> 01:24:15.869 out like packs of wolves in the woods and then 01:24:15.869 --> 01:24:20.789 also connects the idea of the wolf god or the 01:24:20.789 --> 01:24:24.789 dog as a symbol of death and where that comes 01:24:24.789 --> 01:24:32.050 from. I read an academic paper talking about 01:24:32.050 --> 01:24:36.149 Ullr and his connection to the Oath Rings. I 01:24:36.149 --> 01:24:40.329 did a painting on this. There's a place in Sweden 01:24:40.329 --> 01:24:45.949 called Ullave, which means Ullr's Ve. Ve is a 01:24:45.949 --> 01:24:51.510 holy place. And so there's lots of place names 01:24:51.510 --> 01:24:55.449 for Ullr, but very little surviving knowledge 01:24:55.449 --> 01:24:59.270 of Ullr outside of like the god of the snowshoe. 01:25:00.159 --> 01:25:02.939 But then there's also famously the reference, 01:25:02.939 --> 01:25:06.319 I believe in the Heimskringle, that when Odin 01:25:06.319 --> 01:25:12.119 leaves Asgard, Ullr steps forward as the god 01:25:12.119 --> 01:25:17.960 of winter. And so if Ullr is king for a time, 01:25:18.220 --> 01:25:21.699 that certainly implies a level of prominence 01:25:21.699 --> 01:25:25.840 that he doesn't experience at the time the Prose 01:25:25.840 --> 01:25:29.819 Edda is being written. But but referencing something 01:25:29.819 --> 01:25:33.619 earlier, but anyway to go back in this Archaeology 01:25:33.619 --> 01:25:39.359 study that they did they found I can't remember 01:25:39.359 --> 01:25:45.159 there. It was like 30 or 60 Oath rings that had 01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:50.000 been buried at all of them And so that the writer 01:25:50.000 --> 01:25:56.100 was drawing a parallel to Uler as the holder 01:25:56.100 --> 01:26:01.880 of the oath for that time period and also perhaps 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:06.260 Euler having a connection to the Sun and the 01:26:06.260 --> 01:26:09.340 the disk of the ring being connected with the 01:26:09.340 --> 01:26:14.000 shape of the Sun or the Sun wheel and I'd encourage 01:26:14.000 --> 01:26:17.140 people to to look it up I actually reference 01:26:17.140 --> 01:26:21.060 the paper on my website if you click on the image 01:26:21.060 --> 01:26:25.090 of Euler the oath holder you can get direct connection. 01:26:25.189 --> 01:26:27.829 I'm not remembering it off the top of my head. 01:26:28.569 --> 01:26:33.569 But I've read a number of books and papers and 01:26:33.569 --> 01:26:38.930 dissertations on the history, and there are paintings 01:26:38.930 --> 01:26:41.989 of mine that are absolutely inspired as much 01:26:41.989 --> 01:26:49.500 by the historic and archaeological side. of the 01:26:49.500 --> 01:26:52.539 study of these things, as some of my paintings 01:26:52.539 --> 01:26:57.380 are a bit more drawn to the fantastical and more 01:26:57.380 --> 01:27:03.000 story -based side of them. So I found the book 01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:05.399 that I wondered if you'd read, which is from 01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:11.819 Asgard Valhalla by Heather O'Donoghue. That one 01:27:11.819 --> 01:27:15.119 doesn't ring a bell. I recommend to read it. 01:27:15.119 --> 01:27:16.619 It's actually, she brought it out as a second 01:27:16.619 --> 01:27:19.850 edition last summer because obviously things 01:27:19.850 --> 01:27:21.829 in modern media have changed a bit so she had 01:27:21.829 --> 01:27:25.250 a lot to react in service. Literally the subtitle 01:27:25.250 --> 01:27:27.630 is the remarkable history of the Norse myths 01:27:27.630 --> 01:27:31.750 and it's like it speaks to my soul because it 01:27:31.750 --> 01:27:34.710 says everything I think of and agree with and 01:27:34.710 --> 01:27:38.750 more that I didn't know as well. So yes I do 01:27:38.750 --> 01:27:41.869 recommend that to anyone who wants to have a 01:27:42.079 --> 01:27:45.920 toe -dip as you say into the incredible adaptability 01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:49.739 of Norse mythology. I will put a link or at least 01:27:49.739 --> 01:27:51.600 I'll put the details down in the blurb below 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.079 for viewers and listeners. Gosh look at the time, 01:27:55.279 --> 01:27:57.680 time is flying and we are indeed in different 01:27:57.680 --> 01:27:59.420 time zones so at some point I need to get to 01:27:59.420 --> 01:28:02.439 bed and Sam needs to go be with his family for 01:28:02.439 --> 01:28:05.029 the evening so I will So to wrap this episode 01:28:05.029 --> 01:28:07.310 now, I've quite happily talked to you for a lot 01:28:07.310 --> 01:28:09.329 longer, Sal. Yeah, that was fun. Showing you're 01:28:09.329 --> 01:28:12.130 not next door neighbours. Although you might 01:28:12.130 --> 01:28:17.079 curse me after that, if that was the case. But 01:28:17.079 --> 01:28:19.180 I really appreciate your time coming on to the 01:28:19.180 --> 01:28:22.000 podcast this month and I wish you luck with the 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:24.819 rest of your artwork and of course bringing hopefully 01:28:24.819 --> 01:28:26.659 a lucky center to the world. I will certainly 01:28:26.659 --> 01:28:28.460 be throwing money at it as soon as you launch 01:28:28.460 --> 01:28:30.399 that Kickstarter. I have signed up to your newsletter 01:28:30.399 --> 01:28:33.220 so I look forward to learning more and I of course 01:28:33.220 --> 01:28:35.300 encourage everyone to go check Sam Fiegel out 01:28:35.300 --> 01:28:38.510 at fatefulscience .com. Thank you so much, Beggy. 01:28:38.550 --> 01:28:43.029 This was very fun. I enjoyed it. You're a delight 01:28:43.029 --> 01:28:46.310 to talk with. It's not too many people. Usually 01:28:46.310 --> 01:28:48.010 when I start going on about Norse mythology, 01:28:48.189 --> 01:28:55.050 my friends just sort of glaze over. I set this 01:28:55.050 --> 01:28:57.689 podcast up because I have very few friends. I 01:28:57.689 --> 01:28:59.250 mean, one of my mom friends is like, who's Thor? 01:28:59.569 --> 01:29:01.489 How do we know about him? And I'm like, how do 01:29:01.489 --> 01:29:03.779 we know about Thor? Gosh, where to begin without 01:29:03.779 --> 01:29:07.699 one. So, yes. But I often find that once people 01:29:07.699 --> 01:29:10.060 of North Midas connect, there is a very strong 01:29:10.060 --> 01:29:12.100 connection and we all always seem to find each 01:29:12.100 --> 01:29:13.939 other in various ways. Thanks so much to the 01:29:13.939 --> 01:29:16.899 internet and podcasting. Here we are. So I am 01:29:16.899 --> 01:29:19.659 pleased and honoured and really glad that you 01:29:19.659 --> 01:29:22.279 joined me on my little humble pet project of 01:29:22.279 --> 01:29:27.119 a podcast. It was fun. Thank you. Thank you very 01:29:27.119 --> 01:29:30.560 much, Sam. We shall speak again soon. Bye, everyone. 01:29:31.340 --> 01:29:52.319 Bye. Thank you very much for listening to this 01:29:52.319 --> 01:29:55.720 episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between 01:29:55.720 --> 01:29:59.100 my special guests and myself. Please do check 01:29:59.100 --> 01:30:01.560 out the episode blurb for links to their works 01:30:01.560 --> 01:30:04.579 and websites. If you liked this episode let me 01:30:04.579 --> 01:30:07.380 know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if 01:30:07.380 --> 01:30:09.659 you learned something new in the comments and 01:30:09.659 --> 01:30:12.779 of course click subscribe to Valhalla Conversations 01:30:12.779 --> 01:30:16.100 wherever you are listening or watching. This 01:30:16.100 --> 01:30:18.640 podcast can be watched on YouTube and YouTube 01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:22.289 Music. and it can also be listened to on Spotify, 01:30:22.770 --> 01:30:27.029 Amazon Music, Podcast Intex and on RSS .com. 01:30:27.510 --> 01:30:29.890 We hope you can join us in Valhalla again soon 01:30:29.890 --> 01:30:31.449 for more conversations.