WEBVTT

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Welcome to Balhalla Conversations podcast. I'm

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your host, Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul

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Chaser Becky, and I am a proud Viking geek. I

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fell in love with the history, culture and mythology

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of the Viking Age and I have been on an endless

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quest for more ever since. Join me as I discuss

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all things North with those who have been inspired

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by Viking Age history and North mythology in

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their creative works or those who have studied

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the sagas and archaeology and review how such

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subjects are being presented to modern audiences

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today. If you like Viking stuff you are welcome

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in my Valhalla and I hope you stay. for the conversation.

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Welcome everyone to episode 13 of Valhalla Conversations

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podcast and my special guest in this week's,

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well, this month's episode in the month of March

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is a special friend of mine, Ian Stewart Sharpe.

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Welcome, Ian. Hello! Thank you for having me.

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This has been top of the agenda for a long time.

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You've teased me for a while, so I hope it's

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all worth it in the final analysis. Well, whether

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viewers are familiar with you or not, they will

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be by the end of this episode, hopefully, because

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you've got quite a collection, a portfolio, to

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your... name I should say really of Norse stuff

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and some of them I have read some of them I've

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even played with directly so to speak. And kickstarted

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and supported on Twitter and provided marketing

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quotes for? Yes and I could say I'm in your unofficial

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agent for a particular podcast. Exactly exactly

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I think I pretty much owe my entire career to

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you so thank you. Oh thank you. I will be expecting

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an invoice next month. No, it's fine. I do all

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this for the love of anyone who does anything

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fun with North stuff, which you definitely do.

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So to give a brief introduction, you have written

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two fantasy novels. I call them fantasy, but

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they are a bit of sci -fi in between. The first

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one is The All -Further Paradox. The next one

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is Loki's Way to Which I have to confess I haven't

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actually read yet. But you know my life has been

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rather busy, hasn't it? We'll do a quick synopsis

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here. We'll narrate it now. Go for it. Explain

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to our viewers and listeners why they should

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read The Old Father Paradox and Loki's Rager.

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Well, partly because every Norse aficionado needs

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to support creatives in this space like us. I

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was just talking with... the lovely friend of

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the podcast, Caitlin Felix. And she said, I must

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send you a copy of Rand's Daughters, which is

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her debut novel. And I said, no, no, no, no,

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no. I'm gonna go buy it. There's no point us

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all sending each other these free things. You

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need to buy it and respect it for its merit.

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We are, yeah. coiling struggling creatives. I

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obviously have faith because you can't support

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things by just writing about Norse alternate

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history and so that's what it really is is the

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Viking verse is an alternate timeline where the

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Norse never Christianized and so at some point

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back in the past and there are various tipping

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points but certainly before 1066 battle of Stamford

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Bridge and the invasion of Howard Hardrada there

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is this tipping point where the Norse instead

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of losing those battles they start to win everything

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and they turn the tide against Christianity so

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that the modern world faced with that tipping

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point becomes a Norse pagan present and that's

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where the Viking vest is set and so the Allfather

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paradox is a pun on the grandfather paradox.

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Grandfather paradox being a temporal paradox

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that is all about you go back in time, you kill

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your grandfather so therefore paradoxically you

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can't be born so you can't go back in time and

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kill your grandfather. The all -father Odin takes

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the place of the grandfather in that elaborate

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pun and that's how the history has changed. Odin

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as A maverick god of mayhem and mischief goes

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back and changes the timelines to make sure that

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he doesn't get expunged in Ragnarok. Did you

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want the long answer or the short answer? That

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was very precise. I personally wouldn't know

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how to explain it myself sometimes. Besides,

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the way I've summarized it is, imagine if the

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Vikings were good at everything. They invented

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science, they invented maths, they invented technology.

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they then went into space. And that's as far

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as I get usually. That's perfectly valid. And

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in actual fact, there is that Marvel series that's

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been running a while now called What If, which

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is as if the Hulk didn't take, Bruce Banner didn't

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take his gamma radiation and turn it to someone

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else. It just speculates and postulates on all

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of those kind of different alternative scenarios

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in the Viking versus very much. Norse mythology

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brought the life and the gods tinkering with

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Fate in order to defy fate comes from this came

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from a couple of things actually I think you

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have to be careful what you wish for because

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when I wrote your father paradox my what if was

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You know, I was facing my own kind of personal

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brand new up because I had a company collapse

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uh brexit had just happened donald trump had

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been elected and i was thinking oh my god how

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come the world get any worse what if we could

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just turn back time and do it a bit differently

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and that's what then led to this series of novels

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of course ragnarok is itself inherently cyclical

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and so you know we've got disaster just coming

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back time and time again uh and we live in interesting

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times once more As I say within the book, there

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is seldom a single wave. The doom keeps coming

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back. I must admit, you kind of, it is, I guess

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how I describe it is revolutionary in how deep

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and detailed you go into rewriting history in

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order to create this paradoxical universe. It's

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just staggering. That's half the fun, right?

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And so partly that came from the fact that Old

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Norse, the language of the Vikings, and English

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are so similar, right? They're kissing cousins,

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and so I know that you've got all of the props,

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but I'm just going to skip ahead and mess up

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here, but Old Norse Modern Times, Old Norse Modern

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Times. I actually wrote that with another friend

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of the podcast. Slowly we're accumulating everyone

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in the Viking world on our respective podcasts.

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Anyway, it says Josh Gilligan put that together

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with me, as well as a professor called Angrim

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over Dalin, who is a professor of Icelandic medieval

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literature. And we put that together because

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it is hilarious just how similar some words are

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and how easy it is to translate personages like,

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for example, Shakespeare. William Shakespeare

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in Old Norse would be Wilhelm Schackegier, right?

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But, you know, because that's how the components

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break down. Charles Darwin becomes Carl Divert.

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Albert Einstein becomes something like Albrecht

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Einstein and the whole... That kissing cousin

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nature of the language, the fact they're so similar,

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is just so fun to play with. So you can take

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these great names of inventors, historians, scientists,

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and generals and norsify them, look at them through

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the black mirror of this Norse lens. And so that's

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fun. Some don't work. I mean, things like Isaac

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Newton. is difficult because Isaac, being a very

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biblical name, doesn't know the first engineer.

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But Newton does. Newton just becomes Newton.

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There's so many rich cultural influences on the

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English language that started off as Germanic.

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You go back to Alfred the Great's time. And a

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traveller in the core of... Alfred the Great,

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ninth century England, from Norway was mutually

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intelligible. It was only after the Romance languages

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piled in with William the Conqueror, who was

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himself of Norse descent, as a Norman, that we

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got this influx of alternative words and Latin

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-based stuff. Anyway, that's the kind of thing

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that I mess around with. far too much and you're

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the only person who's ever listened to it at

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all. Well I am just just staggered because it

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is it kind of only hit me how deep this rabbit

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hole and I quite like the description of a black

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mirror. but but a north north a north black mirror

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because There are times where it's not kind of

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like a nice world because it's gone down this

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other route And of course that all comes through

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in your other publications, which i'm going to

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show to the camera And the first one which I

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followed was the jotten wall If I can get it

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without glaring out my virtual screen, which

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is a series of comics Um that follow an amazing

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sci -fi -esque tale. So is that where you first

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found my stuff? I think so. I think so. You have

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to be careful with your J's and your Y sounds

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here. No, I do it all the time. I do it all the

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time. Because even on the podcast, I'm sure we

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talked about it in the Vikings of Banff and stuff,

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then one of the characters there is a Jarl, right?

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But so many times I say Jarl. And it is natural

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for an English speaker to go for the J when the

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more correct Nordic pronunciation would be Jotun.

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But honestly, I do it all the time and I wrote

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the bleeding thing, so don't worry about it.

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Well, it still happens. I happen to be championing

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indirectly a soon -to -come new Viking Age game

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called Norse. and their trailer keeps happily

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popping up in my algorithm feed on my socials

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and its subtitles and you can tell it's subtitles

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kind of like automatically within the text has

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not been put in my personal books when it says

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kind of this land is ruled by petty kings and

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yarls it puts the word jazz which just makes

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me chuck out petty kings and jars anyway but

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yes um it was either the yotem ball or the yotem

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yeah yotem autumn of the autumn collection which

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I of course kickstarted, supported on kickstarter,

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I should say. You kickstarted, I supported it.

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And then that led me to eventually this beautiful

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beast of a book which is quite aptly blurring

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out, there we are, When the Wolf Comes, which

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is your absolute heroic volume of a playable

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tabletop universe set in this paradox of time

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which you've created and established through

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comics and books and then into a campaign book.

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You just seem to keep expanding it amazingly

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well and I'm very impressed. Well thank you.

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I suppose it comes down to having too much time

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on my hands. My wife will shoot me for that.

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She's constantly saying, what are you doing now?

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Why are you doing that? Haven't you had enough?

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But there's just so many fun little things. So

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without spoiling, Loki's wager for you just to

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go back to that. Because again, each of the books

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take these kind of little moments in history

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and turn them around, right? So the first book

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tells these little vignettes of history. from

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the perspective of Churchward and Michaels, who

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is a kind of Anglican clergyman who's standing

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in a church in Gospoth in Cumbria, which is a

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real cross with a modern depiction of, yeah,

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there you go, that exists in Gospoth in Cumbria,

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you can go see it. And as part of my... book

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tour I did go and see, a thousand year old cross

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telling the story of Ragnach is an amazing thing

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to see. But this guy, Chet Gordon -Michaels,

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he is the modern audience's gateway, the lens,

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the person who can interpret all of this changing.

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world around him. And then Loki's Wager is, again,

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another series of vignettes, but they include

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things like the siege of Kiev, but the 1204 version

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when... the Tartar Horde, the Mongols came through

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and it was called in the Norse terms, Kruligan.

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And so you have this notion here of this Kievan

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Rus which had been settled by Pyrenean princes

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by offshoots of the Swedish royal family who

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had their own huge step planning empire. And

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then suddenly the Mongols sweep in. And I just

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love the notion that had this Kievan Rus' been

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part of a fledgling Norse empire as opposed to

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an offshoot of a Christianized world, that it

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really would have been horse archer versus shield

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ball. And so there's a story in there that tells.

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a retelling of the siege of Kunigal, the siege

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of Kiev, of the Battle of Kalka, which was where

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a lot of the Kievan princes were slain in battle

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and ultimately the Kievan Rus was brought under

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the Tatar yoke during that. And you'll be glad

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to know that one of your good friends Steve from

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the podcast, that was the battle. in which his

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character died. So the alternative history version,

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he died in the battle of Khalkha, as he says,

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with an arrow to the knee and a sword to the

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head. Well, a bit of pain, and then hopefully

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no more pain, depending on which way round it

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happens. The fascinating thing is, well, he's

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in a lot of pain now. Just his daily existence

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is obviously a grind thing. But the point is

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to find these kind of obscure but fascinating

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moments of history and then norsify them and

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again because Odin is involved and this is around

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the time of the advent of gunpowder how do you

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stop Genghis Khan and his Mongol horde if you're

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Odin well yeah give the Vikings artillery and

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that changes things around because they don't

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go quietly they marshal their resources they

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bring the powers of the Earth are the, I've got

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these kind of castes or six which are equivalent

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to monastic orders, but the Earth are the Vedandi

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and the Skuld drawn from the names of the norms.

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fate they weave the powers of sparkraft and savor

00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:09.099
and they change the course of the battle as well

00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:12.660
so it's like uh i don't know the battle of helms

00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:14.740
deep that people might know from lord of the

00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:21.380
rings but authentically norse i well i just love

00:17:21.380 --> 00:17:23.880
i love it all and you can really tell with the

00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.599
amount of detail but you go to that not only

00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.420
did you do a lot of research i'm going to assume

00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:33.380
But you've also enjoyed doing a lot of this research

00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:35.859
and then, as you say, literally playing with

00:17:35.859 --> 00:17:38.740
the what -if. And just to clarify for viewers

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:40.960
who keep thinking, why does he mention this podcast?

00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:42.759
Well, I know we're on a podcast, but there was

00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.460
another podcast and that links me and Ian very

00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:49.480
directly. His campaign book, When the Wolf Comes,

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.480
he's actually playing a set of adventures from

00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.240
it called The Thought and Memory Saga. And I

00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.450
had my own character debut in episode five. And

00:17:59.450 --> 00:18:02.109
Sinks, you lasted longer than most. I did thrive.

00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:06.869
I'm trying not to. But yes, because it's called

00:18:06.869 --> 00:18:10.329
Vikings and Valkyries and it is a wild ride.

00:18:10.509 --> 00:18:15.970
It is full of unexpected surprises, mayhem, chaos.

00:18:16.710 --> 00:18:18.750
It's something every D &D fan will love. It's

00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:20.509
actually not played using Dungeons and Dragons

00:18:20.509 --> 00:18:22.930
rules. It's the Shadows of the Demon Lord rules,

00:18:23.009 --> 00:18:25.450
which I'm unfamiliar with, but I now have a taste

00:18:25.450 --> 00:18:29.640
for and experience of. Thanks to debuting briefly

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.539
as which I would love to be on it every episode

00:18:32.539 --> 00:18:40.220
So it's it's very familiar to fans of D &D but

00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:42.319
as we say, this is the Vikings and Valkyries

00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:48.519
podcast. We call it vnv See, ah And hope that

00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.779
we don't get sued by wizards of the coast as

00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:54.640
it is a slip of the tongue It's vnv very similar

00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.859
very easy to pick up layered on the shadow of

00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:00.680
the Demon Lord. You know, that book that you

00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.180
showed, When the Wolf Comes, translates it into

00:19:04.180 --> 00:19:07.019
my Viking -verse setting. So the simple way to

00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:11.200
describe that campaign is, in two words, space

00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:18.259
vikings. Because that's where, that's where things

00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:21.000
end up. Yeah, it is a rollercoaster and it's

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.609
good fun to do. No, but you play a D &D campaign

00:19:24.609 --> 00:19:26.549
as well. How many do you play? At least one D

00:19:26.549 --> 00:19:30.490
&D campaign, right? I am currently in, technically,

00:19:31.609 --> 00:19:36.430
three? Three. By different people? Different

00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:38.890
people. There's one that's regularly on the Monday

00:19:38.890 --> 00:19:41.430
night with my other good D &D friend, Wade Ingram,

00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:43.789
of Bardic West fame, which I actually managed

00:19:43.789 --> 00:19:46.829
to recruit one of his cast of Bardic West, Danina.

00:19:47.809 --> 00:19:49.670
I didn't know that you actually play with him.

00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:51.069
You play with him. I thought you were just a

00:19:51.069 --> 00:19:53.359
fellow imposter. Oh, I've been a fan for a while,

00:19:53.500 --> 00:19:57.859
but Wayne is also a full -time DM. He runs various

00:19:57.859 --> 00:20:00.359
games and one -shots through startplaying .com,

00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:04.299
which is very paid per session. And I was able

00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:06.700
to join him for a one -shot last autumn. And

00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:08.700
then, no, was it last autumn? No, it must have

00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:11.279
been actually earlier, last spring. And then

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.920
a spot came up on his Shattered Obelisk campaign,

00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:16.339
and I joined that. And so my character managed

00:20:16.339 --> 00:20:19.059
to complete that. And then we've just completed

00:20:19.789 --> 00:20:24.890
a shorter campaign taken from the Candlekeep

00:20:24.890 --> 00:20:27.670
Library book, and then we're going to start the

00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:29.490
Beckley campaign next week, so it's all exciting.

00:20:29.569 --> 00:20:31.609
And I am playing a Norse fighter, ironically

00:20:31.609 --> 00:20:34.390
enough, which shouldn't surprise any people who

00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:38.450
follow me at all on socials. My question to you

00:20:38.450 --> 00:20:41.269
about that is, because the MS leads into why

00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:44.210
we do our podcasts for When the Wolf Comes and

00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:47.769
have that Vikings and Valkyries flavour, is of

00:20:47.769 --> 00:20:51.789
your D &D campaigns, how many PCs have died?

00:20:55.809 --> 00:20:59.690
Only one campaign has had a death and unfortunately

00:20:59.690 --> 00:21:04.970
it's been the same player every time. Thankfully

00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:08.069
he kind of like, he came around, what was it,

00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:12.650
it wasn't Shattered Obelisk, he was playing Halfling

00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:16.099
and he died really close to the end, but then

00:21:16.099 --> 00:21:19.519
we were rescuing his brother as an NPC, so we

00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.680
then started playing as his brother. No, he didn't.

00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:26.619
He played as a weird, um, oh, authentically -faced

00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:29.130
elf. I forgot what they call him. those monsters

00:21:29.130 --> 00:21:33.329
with tentacles. It's like a mind flayer but with

00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:36.789
a fairy. It was a very weird NPC character for

00:21:36.789 --> 00:21:38.609
a little while but they didn't last long and

00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:41.089
then as we rescued his brother who was an NPC

00:21:41.089 --> 00:21:44.049
we just let him play as his brother until the

00:21:44.049 --> 00:21:47.130
end of that campaign. So yes, it's been the same

00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:49.309
play who's sadly died a couple of times but yes

00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:52.529
yours Vikings of Valkyrie's podcast does have...

00:21:52.529 --> 00:21:56.599
Just a bloodbath. It's just it's I think odin

00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.000
is almost like in the dice and he just takes

00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:04.359
a sacrifice every session Not quite every session,

00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:10.039
but we have lost people Uh lost I think we've

00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.299
said we've just recorded episode 18 last night

00:22:13.299 --> 00:22:21.680
and we lost two Guest stars in that at once No,

00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.859
that's not new. That's not new, actually. And

00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:31.339
there's a kind of off -screen, off -recording

00:22:31.339 --> 00:22:34.700
death as well that's woven into it. Yeah, we've

00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:37.440
lost people to being savaged by bears. We've

00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:43.740
lost people to being eaten by store worms. You

00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:48.349
were... We're spoilers spoilers, perhaps we won't

00:22:48.349 --> 00:22:50.130
give we won't give away too much in case anyone

00:22:50.130 --> 00:22:54.029
starts suffice it to say that the whole schtick

00:22:54.029 --> 00:22:59.369
is that You know in the in that Viking sense

00:22:59.369 --> 00:23:03.589
Your fate is chosen for you. It's best to just

00:23:03.589 --> 00:23:06.750
go down swinging Yes, I mean some of them do

00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:08.369
I mean I remember listening to think is what

00:23:08.369 --> 00:23:11.099
the early episodes before I came on Can't remember

00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.619
his name. I want to say Josh, but I think it

00:23:12.619 --> 00:23:14.220
was Josh. It might be the Jason. I'm sure it

00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:18.119
was another J name. He went fought that skeletal

00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.980
bear because the bones weren't buried or burnt

00:23:20.980 --> 00:23:23.019
or something. And he decided to take it into

00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:25.619
the fire with him, which I thought was very heroic.

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.900
He did rather well. Whereas I remember Josh Gilligan,

00:23:29.259 --> 00:23:33.099
our mutual friend. Was he thrown off the roof?

00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:35.480
He was. He was thrown off the roof by a draugr

00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:37.660
though. So that's kind of understandable that

00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:39.930
he wasn't purposely thrown off the roof. Although

00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:43.470
I will say this, another friend of ours, Fionn,

00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:46.109
Fionn the Scout, who is an academic of public

00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:48.230
history, I'm hoping to get him on in August,

00:23:49.009 --> 00:23:52.470
he of course was indirectly killed by the player.

00:23:52.849 --> 00:24:00.990
Yeah, mercilessly gunned down. So it's an interesting...

00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.759
as an author, and we do get authors and podcasters,

00:24:04.819 --> 00:24:07.059
anyone who's got something, a way of telling

00:24:07.059 --> 00:24:10.259
a story, Sam Flagel, an artist, for example.

00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.259
We've got all of these people who come on who

00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:16.180
convey their Norse -ness in one way or another.

00:24:17.819 --> 00:24:22.059
And they all lend something interesting and new

00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.720
to the podcast. But the core adventuring group,

00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:31.140
which is a guy called... Christoph Adrian, who

00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:36.819
we know as CJ, and Bill Hopkins, and Steve, who

00:24:36.819 --> 00:24:40.440
we mentioned. They form the kind of core trio,

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.099
and they've been described by one reviewer for

00:24:45.099 --> 00:24:49.819
the UK podcast scene, UK actual play podcast,

00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:53.140
as the most hapless adventuring party ever. Because

00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:56.559
what they do is they basically get everyone else

00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.740
killed. But the joy is, and that's why I mention

00:25:00.740 --> 00:25:02.579
all of this, because it's so different from a

00:25:02.579 --> 00:25:07.339
traditional campaign, where you fall in love

00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:09.240
with your character, you grow your character,

00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.240
you're invested in your character, and that's

00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.079
great. That's certainly a way of playing it.

00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:20.440
But in this world, it's much more brutal and

00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:32.740
unforgiving. It pays to kill off guests on a

00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:35.720
weekly basis. It's actually incredibly difficult

00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:37.279
then to keep everything going. This is where

00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:39.519
you've been a great help as well, funneling guests

00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:41.859
and potential ideas of guests through, because

00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.779
keeping a guest roster when you just kill everyone

00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:50.420
off. Ian doesn't do this deliberately it's just

00:25:50.420 --> 00:25:52.579
the way off of the characters choices or the

00:25:52.579 --> 00:25:55.079
dice are rolled I know for my own characters

00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.640
exits and some characters did survive albeit

00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:59.680
not just in the place they were meant to be like

00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.099
an enus character she was indirectly left behind

00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:07.759
unforgiving is what it is what I don't do is

00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:10.980
pull any punches if you get put in a bad situation

00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:12.900
and you do the wrong thing or you roll the wrong

00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:16.779
dice then you can quite easily die. Now there's

00:26:16.779 --> 00:26:18.880
plenty of mechanisms in the game, like inspiration

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.559
points, which I give out on the basis of a quiz

00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.220
that I do at the beginning of. Yes, I tune into

00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:30.480
the episodes just for the quizzes. So the quizzes

00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:32.440
get, and the inspiration points allow you to

00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:34.140
turn a failure of a dice roll into a success.

00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:37.440
But our hapless heroes always forget to use them.

00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.559
I've even given them a turn back time device.

00:26:40.809 --> 00:26:47.349
You have you have indeed It saved one of them

00:26:47.349 --> 00:26:49.009
in particular i'm not going to say who because

00:26:49.009 --> 00:26:51.690
I got in trouble once on social media saying

00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:55.730
who that was um, but yes i'm amazed i'm amazed

00:26:55.730 --> 00:26:58.369
that in addition to you There are other listeners

00:26:58.369 --> 00:27:01.230
who complain about spoilers. I mean, that's that's

00:27:01.230 --> 00:27:03.869
great. It's great that there's a i'm so eager

00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:06.549
to let you guys know how much I loved it and

00:27:06.549 --> 00:27:08.529
I just immediately soon. So it's finished recording.

00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:11.710
I'll be on any any any post I could find commenting

00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:14.490
commenting to let you guys know because it is

00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:17.710
a wild ride and it's just a lot of fun and it

00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:22.430
is a wonderful rainbow spectrum of guests with

00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:24.210
various north interests I mean you had a guy

00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:28.329
from Marvel's superhero multiverse yeah yeah

00:27:28.329 --> 00:27:31.009
Matt Matt Forbeck he's he's a kind of gaming

00:27:31.009 --> 00:27:34.720
legend he's written all kinds of rule books and

00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.779
top of the heap right now is his marvel superheroes

00:27:37.779 --> 00:27:41.220
marvel multiverse book and he came on he came

00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:45.400
on and yeah he's uh yeah he really is the sort

00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.759
of person that you can go to something like garycon

00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.880
or you know dragoncon and he's holding the limelight

00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.000
because he's a rock star and he came on, and

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.680
he does hold the record for the quickest death.

00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:00.880
I think he lasted 56 minutes. We're going to

00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.019
publish a league table at some point. And I'm

00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:06.920
also going to, and this is another little exclusive

00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.940
to you. I'm going to do an Oscars, because again,

00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:15.980
Oscar, my Oscar can be notified into Asgear.

00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:24.000
So we're going to do an Asgear ceremony. We'll

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.859
do a series of awards. We'll have people vote

00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:30.920
in. So best death, for example. And we'll have

00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.339
people vote in, and then we'll give the awards.

00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.980
Perhaps we'll do the golden rubber duckies. Something

00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:42.500
like that. I just got my head in the Brits and

00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:45.740
kind of like the Academy Awards in the UK, where

00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:47.940
they do kind of like that montage of all the

00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:49.759
great actors and directors and directors who

00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:57.359
have sadly died in that last 12 months. All our

00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.559
famous last lines. I mentioned that in the last

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.420
podcast because the other thing here with our,

00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.500
you know, our core trio is they don't remember

00:29:06.500 --> 00:29:08.259
any of the guests. So they say, who was that

00:29:08.259 --> 00:29:10.640
guy who died at that time? I'm doing that thing.

00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:13.059
And I just said, yeah, it was Gravebreaker. It

00:29:13.059 --> 00:29:15.920
was, you know, it was, it was Evan and he died

00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:20.259
doing this. So that in memoriam thing as far

00:29:20.259 --> 00:29:23.319
as what goes on in their brains is kind of, oh

00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.819
God, that's non -existent. Oh, well, I urge any

00:29:27.819 --> 00:29:30.180
listeners of yours just to give episode one a

00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:32.720
try and see if you don't get curious enough to

00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:35.279
see what on earth can happen to this group and

00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.680
how they survive to the next episode and to the

00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.400
next episode. Because as you said, Bill, Steve

00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.640
and CJ, CJ comes in a couple of episodes. Episode

00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.500
three, episode three. Oh, he's before me. Oh,

00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:50.859
yes. I can't believe I forgot I didn't actually

00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:54.160
play with a guy. Yes, he was there. it was that

00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.059
um but yes they are the not just hapless but

00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:00.539
they are the most the three characters you would

00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:03.740
never ever have thought to like survive an apocalypse

00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:07.339
basically they just happen to be a walking survival

00:30:07.339 --> 00:30:12.579
it's interesting because again storytelling right

00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:14.880
so you sit and you write a novel it's all structured

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.299
and it's all you know planned out and it has

00:30:19.299 --> 00:30:21.619
a beginning a middle and end and a reason why

00:30:21.619 --> 00:30:24.059
and then when you get into this form of storytelling

00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:28.359
you constantly have to adapt and grow and think

00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:32.309
on your feet and Yeah, one of the things in a

00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:35.490
recent episode is, again, I won't spoil it, but

00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:39.250
I did have to just sit and think about why the

00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:42.990
Norns, the great matrons of fate who control

00:30:42.990 --> 00:30:47.230
the weave of destiny, why they would have chosen

00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:54.730
these three trick chumps as the saviors of the

00:30:54.730 --> 00:30:58.289
Viking versus the means to forestall The next

00:30:58.289 --> 00:31:01.250
Ragnarok and uh, you know because you need to

00:31:01.250 --> 00:31:04.150
have some kind of believability So again without

00:31:04.150 --> 00:31:06.809
spoiling it I think i've I think i've done that

00:31:06.809 --> 00:31:10.029
in a recent episode at least set the scene for

00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:14.769
why these unlikely heroes are thrust into the

00:31:14.769 --> 00:31:18.049
the weave of fate and uh, You know probably just

00:31:18.049 --> 00:31:19.789
because they're cutting all of the threads on

00:31:19.789 --> 00:31:25.609
a daily basis Well, I guess we should probably

00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:31.039
consider If you can, when did you first start

00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.900
getting an interest in all this stuff then, whether

00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:36.240
it was the history, mythology, a bit of both?

00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.500
How was it back when you were young, later on?

00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:42.079
Yeah, you know, there's a photo of me somewhere,

00:31:42.420 --> 00:31:44.940
if you're on Facebook, there's a photo of me

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:48.039
as a hello youth. I'm probably about 10 because

00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.099
I'm wearing my... Tottenham Hotspur football

00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:56.839
kit. And it's like that centennial year for Spurs.

00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:01.400
Anyway, I'm on a Viking ship. My dad was the

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:05.880
sort of dad who took me around to places like,

00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:11.599
you know, Bigham Hill and the various museums

00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:15.019
like HMS Belfast on the Thames or the Globe Theatre.

00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:16.880
You go and see all of those things as a kid.

00:32:17.140 --> 00:32:22.829
So I was always a big kiss. the what -if element,

00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:28.190
you know, I touched upon because I was thinking

00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:30.829
about, you know, what if you could have this

00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:33.309
do -over? What if you could change things around?

00:32:33.670 --> 00:32:36.190
And I think that some of it is also born of playing

00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:39.609
far too many games like Europa Universalis and

00:32:39.609 --> 00:32:44.869
Civilization, because I take all of those, and

00:32:44.869 --> 00:32:46.890
Total War is another one, I take all of those

00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:49.359
kind of war. war games and civilisation games

00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:55.319
and turn -based 4x games and I'd play out this

00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:57.339
parallel timeline in my mind and I thought that

00:32:57.339 --> 00:32:59.420
would just be a really good story because it

00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:03.819
was literally what the real characters in the

00:33:03.819 --> 00:33:06.240
Vikingverse are, at least in the novels, is it's

00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.079
not necessarily the people but it's very similar

00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:13.299
to the Foundation series by Asimov in the sense

00:33:13.299 --> 00:33:16.579
that in the sense that it's the civilization

00:33:16.579 --> 00:33:21.160
itself that is really the story. It's watching

00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.440
those thousands of years unfold in a different

00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:26.480
way, because you know what the real history is,

00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:28.279
which perhaps you know what the real history

00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:31.230
is, and many people... turns out south of my

00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:33.369
Canadian border, don't know much about real history.

00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:39.089
But in terms of how history plays out and how

00:33:39.089 --> 00:33:40.930
it could have played out, that's the fascinating

00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:44.250
thing. If you know your history, then you run

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:48.809
through all of that. So there was a lot of computer

00:33:48.809 --> 00:33:52.049
game inspiration, there was a lot of historical

00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:55.630
inspiration, there was my own thoughts around

00:33:55.630 --> 00:34:01.109
what if. And so that was what it was all born

00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:03.009
from. I'd originally, and it could have taken

00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:05.109
a very different direction because I was originally

00:34:05.109 --> 00:34:08.269
fascinated with doing something similar with

00:34:08.269 --> 00:34:11.269
the Roman Empire, but there was already a series

00:34:11.269 --> 00:34:15.369
of alternative history books called Romanitus,

00:34:16.349 --> 00:34:20.030
which explored that. And there's a lot of good

00:34:20.030 --> 00:34:21.969
alternative history stuff from people like Harry

00:34:21.969 --> 00:34:25.050
Turtledove, but no one had ever done this Norse

00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:28.750
thing. And then I think the last point is, again,

00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:32.170
going more academic. There's actually a very

00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:38.519
famous historian called Toynbee. published something

00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.480
called The Study of History, and in his appendices

00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:44.920
to this multi -volume work that probably came

00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:48.639
out around the time of World War II. But it was

00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:51.780
this huge magnum opus. And at the end of that,

00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:56.099
he's got an appendix which is entitled The Abortive

00:34:56.099 --> 00:35:00.800
Birthright of the, or The Forfeited Birthright

00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:05.170
of the Aborted Scandinavian Civilization. which

00:35:05.170 --> 00:35:07.590
pointed out the fact that there were all of these

00:35:07.590 --> 00:35:09.309
points where they nearly took over the world,

00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:14.110
right? They conquered London, Paris, they came

00:35:14.110 --> 00:35:16.829
close to Constantinople, you know, there was

00:35:16.829 --> 00:35:19.210
so many - They had a king on the English throne,

00:35:19.409 --> 00:35:22.329
I will say that. Canute, canute, and half the

00:35:22.329 --> 00:35:25.909
canute. And imagine if half the canute son hadn't

00:35:25.909 --> 00:35:29.179
just choked at a wedding. Possibly poisoned,

00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:31.599
possibly poisoned, but he could have stayed on

00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:35.840
the throne and would have had a much different

00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:39.860
history. That Canute's North Sea Empire, the

00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:43.380
spanning England and Norway and Denmark, would

00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:46.079
have been a fascinating construct to take into,

00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:48.440
and that's one of the things I play around with,

00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:53.340
so it's taking all of those ideas and Toynbee,

00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:55.820
and you can find this online, it's a great read,

00:35:56.389 --> 00:35:59.690
just to see what he was thinking as this counterfactual

00:35:59.690 --> 00:36:03.670
history. And that really was the catalyst because

00:36:03.670 --> 00:36:07.389
I thought, yeah, he joined all the dots for me

00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:10.289
and all of that came together in a rush. And

00:36:10.289 --> 00:36:14.329
then I sat and I wrote All Father Paradox in

00:36:14.329 --> 00:36:19.789
about six months. What? Wow. I think that's all

00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:21.530
I did because I was being paid off from a job.

00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:25.469
The company had collapsed. They gave me a payout.

00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:30.690
And I thought, oh great, I'm buying a book. So

00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:34.070
there you go. Look at where you are now. Exactly

00:36:34.070 --> 00:36:39.710
the same place. Well, it seems that path has

00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:43.309
diverted. And I'm very glad it has, as much as

00:36:43.309 --> 00:36:45.630
I feel sorry for you going through that rough

00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:48.480
time of it. I am pleased that your imagination

00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.679
has been that loose and these wonderful stories

00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:55.380
and characters and this insane paradox world

00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:57.980
has been out and I've been able to actually play

00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:01.000
and experience it and it's just I mean the fascination

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.539
with the language clearly comes through from

00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:08.619
this conversation so how much did you know of

00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:10.960
Old Norse before you started writing Allfather

00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:13.059
Paradox or did you have to do a lot of research

00:37:13.059 --> 00:37:16.920
into that? Yeah, you know, there's lots of research

00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:21.440
and it's constant research because one of the

00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.460
things that I did, which is perhaps a little

00:37:24.460 --> 00:37:27.920
rod for my own back is even in the RPG, I started

00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.739
translating all of the character paths, right?

00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:35.039
Because I didn't just want Wizard, Warrior, Thief.

00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:39.380
I wanted... real Norse archetypes. I wanted real

00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:43.300
Norse origins. I didn't want, you know, Tolkien's

00:37:43.300 --> 00:37:46.300
pointy -eared elves. Although that said, you

00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:48.320
know, Tolkien was, you know, based an awful lot

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:52.599
of his stuff on Norsemen. I digress a little

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:56.599
bit there. The point is, is I started to put

00:37:56.599 --> 00:38:00.960
in the Old Norse translations for every spell.

00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.280
every weapon, every character class, every monster,

00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:11.679
and actually, I wonder who beyond me actually

00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:14.760
cares here, because it's like, are people gonna,

00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:17.260
instead of calling themselves an outlaw, are

00:38:17.260 --> 00:38:20.159
they gonna call themselves an outlaw? Perhaps,

00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.639
it depends how much they get into the role playing.

00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:32.760
I've worked on the basis that I'm the kind of

00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:38.320
Uber nerd on this stuff. I've gone to where no

00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:43.599
one else will go. And so I throw things like

00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:45.719
that into the Norse quiz that we do on the podcast

00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:49.800
and then just stump everybody. But it's good

00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:54.840
fun. And I think there's an intellectual curiosity

00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.559
that extends and is exciting and invigorating

00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.340
of its own accord, in addition to just publishing

00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:05.500
books. I'd probably do that stuff in the background

00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:10.619
anyway. And I don't know, you might be a little

00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:12.260
bit too young. Do you remember Mastermind with

00:39:12.260 --> 00:39:16.739
Magnus Magnuson? And the black chair and the...

00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:20.840
Unfortunately, I think I am just a bit too young

00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:22.440
because I know he was around at the age of the

00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.769
Yorvik Dig. And that was also just before my

00:39:25.769 --> 00:39:27.989
times. And so the funny thing is with Magnus,

00:39:27.989 --> 00:39:30.650
that's a great Icelandic guy. And he's written

00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:34.210
all kinds of Viking books. You can go back and

00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:36.550
see all the Viking histories. But he was the

00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:40.550
original host of Mastermind. And Mastermind was

00:39:40.550 --> 00:39:44.610
this very archetypal quiz show. And they'd sit

00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:45.949
you down there. And you would have a specialist

00:39:45.949 --> 00:39:48.070
subject. You'd sit in a dark room. And it was

00:39:48.070 --> 00:39:53.000
actually based upon the producers. reminiscence,

00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.179
remembering of his time in a Gestapo spot, under

00:39:57.179 --> 00:39:59.239
Gestapo interrogation. So we try to recreate

00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:01.679
that in the form of mastermind. They asked you

00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:03.139
all of these questions on a specialist subject.

00:40:03.820 --> 00:40:05.840
You had two minutes to answer as many as you

00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:09.460
can. And if you didn't get that last one, you'd

00:40:09.460 --> 00:40:12.019
say, I've started so I finish. And they have

00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:16.550
read that last question for you. Anyway. The

00:40:16.550 --> 00:40:18.469
reason I say all of that is because that would

00:40:18.469 --> 00:40:21.449
be my specialist subject and that's the reason

00:40:21.449 --> 00:40:23.510
I like asking the quizzes at the beginning is

00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:29.110
because There's so much stuff out there that

00:40:29.110 --> 00:40:33.570
you can read so many great academics so many

00:40:33.570 --> 00:40:39.739
great Authors and what we do here is fascinating

00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:41.139
in itself because you bring everyone together

00:40:41.139 --> 00:40:48.960
and you explore things and I think that shared

00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:54.679
passion is a wonderful thing to explore. Yep,

00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.280
it's purely what this podcast is fueled on. Next

00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:02.460
time let's do Norse Mastermind and everyone has

00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:04.920
to sit on a backchair. But you can't see it now.

00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:09.349
Yes, you can't see it virtually. I was just thinking,

00:41:09.469 --> 00:41:12.010
wouldn't it be awesome if someone went onto Mastermind

00:41:12.010 --> 00:41:15.110
and their special subject was your Vikingverse,

00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:17.650
because it's got enough content behind it to

00:41:17.650 --> 00:41:20.449
be a specialist subject in its own right. Yeah,

00:41:20.449 --> 00:41:22.090
I'd be the only one that could fact check it,

00:41:22.150 --> 00:41:27.070
though, that was the thing. The funny thing is,

00:41:27.090 --> 00:41:28.670
the funny thing is, again, just going back to

00:41:28.670 --> 00:41:31.000
the podcast, is that I like that. you ask the

00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.400
questions. I always use the questions to kind

00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:35.400
of thematically tease what's going to happen

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:45.039
in the adventure. And the one we recorded last

00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:49.380
night is a doozy because I asked them to name

00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:53.579
all of Loki's children. And yeah, I won't put

00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:58.219
you on the spot here, but it's actually quite

00:41:58.219 --> 00:42:03.739
difficult. to do. But each of them, each of those

00:42:03.739 --> 00:42:05.639
children, each of those children of Loki has

00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.300
got a wonderful and rich story of their own,

00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:14.320
including, you know, being cut up if they're

00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.800
fed to your brother and then your own entry was

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.570
used to tie your dad up. I don't think I remember

00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:22.949
that he has those two sons and that's their unfortunate

00:42:22.949 --> 00:42:25.750
fate, but I personally could not remember their

00:42:25.750 --> 00:42:28.269
names on my head. It's always the monstrous children

00:42:28.269 --> 00:42:32.090
from Anger Boda. There you go. But you would

00:42:32.090 --> 00:42:33.650
have had your inspiration point for at least

00:42:33.650 --> 00:42:37.510
knowing that he had kids with Sigan. Yes, because

00:42:37.510 --> 00:42:41.090
Sigan is the much forgotten goddess of unknown

00:42:41.090 --> 00:42:43.869
origin. And this is the one thing which I love

00:42:43.869 --> 00:42:47.829
discussing with creatives like you. There are

00:42:47.829 --> 00:42:50.769
unfortunately these gaps in this pantheon and

00:42:50.769 --> 00:42:54.469
their backstory and their history and Especially

00:42:54.469 --> 00:42:57.110
with the female types of characters not just

00:42:57.110 --> 00:42:58.969
the goddesses, but they cannot devour those the

00:42:58.969 --> 00:43:01.869
witches the giantess is Even the norms and the

00:43:01.869 --> 00:43:03.809
valkyries we've got names, but we don't know

00:43:03.809 --> 00:43:07.050
much beyond that and is my is my personal philosophy

00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:10.989
on that is that You got to bear in mind that

00:43:10.989 --> 00:43:15.829
I like the you know the Greek and Roman pantheons

00:43:15.829 --> 00:43:20.530
that were well documented by a very literate

00:43:20.530 --> 00:43:24.949
society, who were geographically encapsulated

00:43:24.949 --> 00:43:28.429
and rubbed their shoulders with each other and

00:43:28.429 --> 00:43:31.730
had all this trading commerce and trade of languages

00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:34.349
and lived in that rich melting pot of the Mediterranean.

00:43:34.809 --> 00:43:40.059
What you actually have in the north is many different

00:43:40.059 --> 00:43:42.619
tribes who constantly migrate for hundreds of

00:43:42.619 --> 00:43:45.860
years, who come in contact with those Greek and

00:43:45.860 --> 00:43:50.820
Roman civilizations. And it's a little bit like

00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:55.099
excavating an archeological dig, in that I think

00:43:55.099 --> 00:43:58.420
many, many, many layers. So Sigan, for example,

00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.219
is not much about her apart from these kind of

00:44:01.219 --> 00:44:03.980
fragmentary remains, which are like shards of

00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:06.320
pottery that you find at a dig. But she would

00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:12.219
probably, just a local deity in a certain part

00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:15.079
of the North, could be Germany, could be Scandinavia,

00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.559
who was told in a story and kind of got embellished

00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.219
and woven in here. And this is the thing is that

00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.880
there's, it's just this fragment, this tapestry,

00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:29.650
this mosaic, and it's all thrown together. all

00:44:29.650 --> 00:44:32.329
of these regional deities, these regional names,

00:44:32.909 --> 00:44:37.610
originally the chief of the pantheon was probably

00:44:37.610 --> 00:44:41.469
Tyr, and certainly amongst the peasant class,

00:44:41.769 --> 00:44:43.889
Thor was always the most prominent, but now we

00:44:43.889 --> 00:44:48.670
call Odin the Allfather simply because he was

00:44:48.670 --> 00:44:55.420
the god of rich men, pretty much. It's just a

00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:58.900
tapestry in itself. There is nothing written

00:44:58.900 --> 00:45:04.619
down and nailed down, apart from three centuries

00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:07.300
after this age we're talking about. So you've

00:45:07.300 --> 00:45:09.900
got a thousand years of people believing all

00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:12.820
of this stuff. Christianity comes along. Then

00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:15.579
300 years later, someone tries to codify it through

00:45:15.579 --> 00:45:20.199
the Christian lens. And so of course we don't

00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:24.960
know anything. All we've got is this. speculation

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:27.940
into this very murky dark world, where we can

00:45:27.940 --> 00:45:31.119
just pluck glimpses of things. It really is like

00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:34.840
looking at the night sky and seeing a few stars

00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.940
and imagining what those things might be. Because

00:45:38.940 --> 00:45:41.719
that's all we've got. We don't have a full and

00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:43.719
complete picture. Even the newer Heimer, the

00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:46.780
nine home worlds, this was a quiz. They're not

00:45:46.780 --> 00:45:49.980
listed anywhere. That was really interesting

00:45:49.980 --> 00:45:51.800
when I heard that quiz. That was really interesting

00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:54.579
to learn. No definitive list. They're mentioned

00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:56.440
and you can pluck them together, but the fact

00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:58.920
that, you know, what are they actually called?

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.079
Because some of the names, whether Niflid, Viliw,

00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:03.699
and Svartalfheim, you know, are about the same

00:46:03.699 --> 00:46:06.159
place, are they? Who knows? Because no one ever

00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:10.139
described it. Elves and Dwarves, Alfar and Dverga,

00:46:10.579 --> 00:46:13.099
probably the same things. I was going to say,

00:46:13.179 --> 00:46:14.820
because they were described as dark elves, not

00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:18.039
dwarves, but dark elves is what I remember. Dark

00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:22.059
elf and verger are often used interchangeably.

00:46:22.539 --> 00:46:26.760
Vanir and alfar are used interchangeably. You

00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:31.320
can't codify it in the way that you can codify

00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:34.159
it in a rule book. In D &D, you know, here is

00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.300
my fighter, here is my elf. Here is my dwarf.

00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:39.559
I know what the difference between them is. You

00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:42.460
know, a wizard does this and they can cast these

00:46:42.460 --> 00:46:44.960
levels spells. It's not that simple in Norse

00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:47.519
myth. And so when you sit and you try and force

00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.400
it into the constraints of a rule book, you have

00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:53.360
to make massive liberties and try and justify

00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:56.000
them as best you can. And so that's what I attempted

00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:59.019
to do. But it makes you think every single time,

00:46:59.420 --> 00:47:01.219
oh my God, I'm trying to put this stuff in a

00:47:01.219 --> 00:47:04.639
straitjacket, but there is no definition of any

00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:09.570
of these things. Do you think that's why these

00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:12.309
gods and these tales, these stories have survived

00:47:12.309 --> 00:47:16.929
so long in popular imagination in a variety of

00:47:16.929 --> 00:47:21.110
mediums? Because of course I am working on my

00:47:21.110 --> 00:47:24.210
own little debut academic article about the kind

00:47:24.210 --> 00:47:27.030
of like Valkyries and their persona and reception

00:47:27.030 --> 00:47:30.980
in the 21st century. And a lot of it is to do

00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:33.860
with visual stereotypes, which started off with,

00:47:33.900 --> 00:47:35.539
I believe, at least in Valkyrie's case, with,

00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:38.159
of course, Wagner's great opera cycle of things.

00:47:38.860 --> 00:47:40.820
And that image of a Valkyrie looking like that,

00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:42.639
that's just stuck in the public consciousness

00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.900
ever since. Similar with Marble doing that with

00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:48.019
Thor. Now everyone thinks Thor is a blonde with

00:47:48.019 --> 00:47:52.840
a winged helmet. which is tricky. But of course

00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:55.099
the fact that these are these gaps I think allow

00:47:55.099 --> 00:47:57.519
creators such as authors, artists, I mean Sam

00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.699
Flegel, we've mentioned him, he's doing wonderful

00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:02.320
things with Interpreting Loki Center and he's

00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.260
coming up in April, Views of Business, so look

00:48:04.260 --> 00:48:08.880
out for him. It allows, especially in terms of

00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.599
fantasy, a creative freedom to explore and expand

00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:16.019
beyond this unknown boundary, because there is

00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:19.300
no boundary, because it's unknown. So in some

00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:22.139
cases we do feel like we have to honour what

00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:25.039
little we know but because of the little bit

00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:27.639
we can go that bit further and show these different

00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:31.639
angles of course always reflect in some way modern

00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:35.320
issues and themes and worries and concerns etc

00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:39.139
with these characters from such an age, such

00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:42.579
an age ago so there's this nice gap, this collective

00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:44.940
bridge of creativity between the now and the

00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:51.079
past. Yeah, there is definitely something inherently

00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:54.219
fascinating about the fatalistic nature of these

00:48:54.219 --> 00:48:57.360
things, because it's all death, right? However

00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:01.280
you skin it. Valkyries are death. They are the

00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.480
choosers of the slain. Vikings go around causing

00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:10.940
death, or Valhalla, the hall of the slain. There's

00:49:10.940 --> 00:49:15.730
so much of it that is about how we face down

00:49:15.730 --> 00:49:17.829
our fate. I think that's the interesting thing.

00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:20.010
I was just looking around, not because I wasn't

00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:22.389
paying attention, but I was looking from my Dictionary

00:49:22.389 --> 00:49:24.690
of Northern Mythology, which is the Simic, but

00:49:24.690 --> 00:49:27.730
Rudolf Simic. Have you got that? No, I've got

00:49:27.730 --> 00:49:30.579
a... very old dictionary, it is me looking at

00:49:30.579 --> 00:49:33.579
my bookshelf. It's Cassell's dictionary, Norse

00:49:33.579 --> 00:49:38.500
Myths and Mythology. It's a 1990 reprint in 2002.

00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:40.599
That's the code dictionary I have. I've got huge

00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:42.860
encyclopedias of Norse mythology, but they all

00:49:42.860 --> 00:49:48.519
tell slightly different things. If I remember,

00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:51.059
I'll send it to you afterwards, which is Rudolf

00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:58.519
Simek, S -I -M -E -K, and he's a very good book

00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.559
that really does explain some of the etymologies

00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.460
of the words, when the linguistics of the words,

00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:07.219
it helps you identify where they, you know, their

00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:10.199
origins. So Valkyries are a good one. Just one

00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:12.739
more thing while I remember, Thomas Denmark is

00:50:12.739 --> 00:50:16.420
an artist who is producing a book of Valkyries,

00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:18.099
the art of Valkyries. You might want to reach

00:50:18.099 --> 00:50:22.219
out to him, find him on Instagram. They do send

00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:24.920
me details. Thomas Denmark, yeah, I was chatting

00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.730
to him about all things Valkyrie. He teaches

00:50:27.730 --> 00:50:29.889
in San Francisco, teaches out in San Francisco,

00:50:29.989 --> 00:50:38.110
I think. Anyway. But if you do it during this

00:50:38.110 --> 00:50:39.750
year, when you've got this seven hour gap, then

00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:45.809
you're fine. I will try my best. He's a good

00:50:45.809 --> 00:50:47.670
guy. He's got lots of great Valkyrie pictures

00:50:47.670 --> 00:50:51.750
in that Wagnerian sense, because where I'm going

00:50:51.750 --> 00:50:57.159
with this is you go back far enough And the kind

00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:04.380
of, the Hunnish period of history where the various

00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:08.599
hordes are descending on Rome, probably around

00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:12.760
that time was the first time that the Norse surfaced

00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:16.679
in the records and they were historical records.

00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.059
And that's when they first came across gold and

00:51:19.059 --> 00:51:21.559
brought gold back to the North. And around that

00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:25.039
time, Valkyries were probably just demons of

00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:28.260
death who did the bidding of the gods of war

00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:33.340
on the battlefield. They were not. But some beautiful

00:51:33.340 --> 00:51:36.139
shield maidens, which is much more of a Gaelic

00:51:36.139 --> 00:51:39.860
or Celtic myth, this notion of the shield maiden.

00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:46.460
And so then with the eventual Viking invasion

00:51:46.460 --> 00:51:49.010
of... what we now know as the Emerald Island,

00:51:49.110 --> 00:51:54.289
the mixture of the Christian myth and the Gaelic

00:51:54.289 --> 00:51:57.250
myth, then I think you get, again, another layer

00:51:57.250 --> 00:52:01.110
to the weave where things start to evolve. Nothing

00:52:01.110 --> 00:52:06.070
is set in stone. Nothing is sacrosanct here.

00:52:06.130 --> 00:52:07.989
Everything's constantly evolving and threading

00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:10.630
in these stories. And so when you get to the

00:52:10.630 --> 00:52:13.429
Battle of Clontarf and you get to those myths

00:52:13.429 --> 00:52:16.949
and... and the stories there of the Valkyries

00:52:16.949 --> 00:52:23.110
and weaving their looms with the heads of men

00:52:23.110 --> 00:52:26.849
and the entrails of fallen warriors. Yes, skulls,

00:52:26.889 --> 00:52:32.969
swords and spears. It's hugely powerful. But

00:52:32.969 --> 00:52:39.550
it also shows then how the path, the trajectory

00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:43.130
of what people thought the Valkyrie was. grew

00:52:43.130 --> 00:52:45.630
and changed to the point where they started as

00:52:45.630 --> 00:52:49.449
demons of death, nothing to do with women at

00:52:49.449 --> 00:52:52.909
all. Then they become these choosers of the slain

00:52:52.909 --> 00:52:58.829
sent on behest of the Isid of Odin. And then

00:52:58.829 --> 00:53:01.949
eventually through nationalism, through the lens

00:53:01.949 --> 00:53:08.309
of the 19th century, they become these Rhine

00:53:08.309 --> 00:53:15.980
maidens of Germanic. mythology and tied to that

00:53:15.980 --> 00:53:22.360
interpretation of myths and they become a costume

00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:25.440
because that's what they are. That version is

00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:31.900
a costume to entice people to, if you don't like

00:53:31.900 --> 00:53:35.340
the singing, at least stare at the cleavage.

00:53:38.740 --> 00:53:42.539
And they're almost fetishistic in that sense.

00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:47.199
Very over romanticized, absolutely. And that's

00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:49.699
exactly the right word, because that is born

00:53:49.699 --> 00:53:54.440
of that romantic era where they are romanticizing

00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:59.460
the past. And so you ended up with a romanticized

00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:03.119
Viking. I mean, there is also partly to blame

00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:07.099
for the horned helmets, after all. It's the costume

00:54:07.099 --> 00:54:09.619
design of people really, because I was... Always

00:54:09.619 --> 00:54:14.480
name the costume designer. It was Emile or Doppler,

00:54:14.739 --> 00:54:17.380
Emile -Kolpler -Doppler, or Doppler, that's the

00:54:17.380 --> 00:54:20.320
surname I remember studying in another article,

00:54:20.539 --> 00:54:22.500
that's the foundation of my Valkyrie research.

00:54:23.050 --> 00:54:24.809
There was another podcast I was listening to

00:54:24.809 --> 00:54:27.530
called You're Dead to me. It's on BBC Sounds.

00:54:27.670 --> 00:54:32.309
Brilliant. There was one about Old Norse literature,

00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:34.610
and they had one of my favorite BBC historians,

00:54:34.909 --> 00:54:37.769
Dr. Elina Ramirez. And her little nuanced window

00:54:37.769 --> 00:54:40.969
at the end was, they hold helmets come from this

00:54:40.969 --> 00:54:43.070
opera. And it was purely because so they could

00:54:43.070 --> 00:54:45.550
be seen from the back of the auditorium. Otherwise,

00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:47.570
no one would know who was a Viking and who was

00:54:47.570 --> 00:54:52.469
a god. So they put horns on the bikes. That actually

00:54:52.469 --> 00:54:54.829
makes sense visually as to why they did that

00:54:54.829 --> 00:54:56.610
visually, and it wasn't just because they believed

00:54:56.610 --> 00:54:59.429
the Vikings were barbarians, which is what I

00:54:59.429 --> 00:55:01.349
grew up thinking. That's why they've got horns

00:55:01.349 --> 00:55:03.050
on because they're barbarians, they're demonic,

00:55:03.170 --> 00:55:07.130
they're not Christian -esque. But that whole

00:55:07.130 --> 00:55:13.110
issue has stuck. Just the sheer folly of fighting

00:55:13.110 --> 00:55:16.130
in a horned helmet. First of all, you have to

00:55:16.130 --> 00:55:18.409
make them. Then they'd have to be practical.

00:55:18.510 --> 00:55:20.670
If nothing else, the Vikings were practical.

00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:23.639
How would you get them to stay on? Why would

00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.360
you wear them when they're clearly of advantage

00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:29.460
to anyone who was trying to grapple you with

00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:31.780
their dice 20 bill? It's not going to happen.

00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:34.619
This is a thing that slightly irks me about the

00:55:34.619 --> 00:55:37.019
remake, the live action remake of How to Train

00:55:37.019 --> 00:55:39.780
Your Dragon, because that is based on a children's

00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:42.019
book. Of course, children only know Vikings with

00:55:42.019 --> 00:55:44.900
hard helmets. in a fantasy setting and it is

00:55:44.900 --> 00:55:46.699
a fantasy book because there are dragons in it

00:55:46.699 --> 00:55:49.599
and everyone has a horned helmet and in the remake

00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:52.059
trailer you just see this battle lineup of everyone

00:55:52.059 --> 00:55:54.480
with various sizes and angles of horns and I'm

00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:02.179
like no no it actually takes efforts to um stick

00:56:02.179 --> 00:56:03.760
that in people's minds you only have to look

00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:07.760
at the Minnesota Vikings anything I mean in Victoria

00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.670
where I live we have the vikes Which is the name

00:56:10.670 --> 00:56:14.949
for the the teams? Victoria fights everything's

00:56:14.949 --> 00:56:18.630
got horns There's so many sports franchises that

00:56:18.630 --> 00:56:23.170
it's just become iconic It's a brand image now.

00:56:23.409 --> 00:56:26.210
It's I mean again, here's rubber ducky rubber

00:56:26.210 --> 00:56:30.929
ducky with horns This is the one that cj threw

00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:39.400
So yeah, I mean, I don't know that it can be

00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:44.440
undone at this stage. And I spent, I don't know,

00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:48.019
seven years, 10 years on various bits of social

00:56:48.019 --> 00:56:50.360
media. And I used to do like Norse facts of the

00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:52.639
day or Norse words of the day and, you know,

00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:58.519
tell myth in bite -sized form. you know social

00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:01.639
media is now an utter total mess but back in

00:57:01.639 --> 00:57:03.880
the day you'd have you'd always have people just

00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:06.739
pop up and say oh i didn't know that you know

00:57:06.739 --> 00:57:09.260
the vikings don't vikings you know didn't wear

00:57:09.260 --> 00:57:17.340
horn helmets it's something i think us that know

00:57:17.340 --> 00:57:20.659
that find it simple just have to live with because

00:57:20.659 --> 00:57:24.699
it's been going on for centuries i don't think

00:57:24.699 --> 00:57:28.449
it's ever going to stop Um and it's probably

00:57:28.449 --> 00:57:32.130
just as an image problem as much as kind of people

00:57:32.130 --> 00:57:34.230
thinking of English shrink or their tea with

00:57:34.230 --> 00:57:35.550
their little finger up and they're just kind

00:57:35.550 --> 00:57:38.010
of like oh oh what ho and all that kind of nonsense.

00:57:38.769 --> 00:57:43.289
It is yes the stereotype and it's easy for people

00:57:43.289 --> 00:57:47.230
to just go plop you sit there I mean even the

00:57:47.230 --> 00:57:51.769
great unwashed barbarian um you know that D &D

00:57:51.960 --> 00:58:00.219
archetype is kind of drawn from Conan or those

00:58:00.219 --> 00:58:09.340
myths which were again, I mean, that mythos has

00:58:09.630 --> 00:58:12.489
a kind of northern realm to it so it's not quite

00:58:12.489 --> 00:58:14.510
the same thing but anyway everyone's just thinking

00:58:14.510 --> 00:58:19.710
the archetypal barbarian is muscled wears fur

00:58:19.710 --> 00:58:25.190
and has a horned helmet and a lot of our role

00:58:25.190 --> 00:58:29.849
-playing games and a lot of novelizations of

00:58:29.849 --> 00:58:34.280
writing stuff continue to perpetuate these stereotypes

00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.119
as opposed to fight back against them. And so

00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:39.559
it was always to try and get back to the authenticity,

00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:43.900
to get back to as much plausibility as much,

00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:51.139
we have this as well, heuristicity as possible.

00:58:52.619 --> 00:58:56.420
That's the key to everything that I'm trying

00:58:56.420 --> 00:59:02.519
to do, to make it very grounded in actuality.

00:59:03.829 --> 00:59:05.510
Historicity, historicity is the word I'm trying

00:59:05.510 --> 00:59:10.530
to say. But this is the funny thing, we're doing

00:59:10.530 --> 00:59:13.150
a video podcast as opposed to an audio podcast.

00:59:13.349 --> 00:59:15.869
When I do the audio podcast, if I stumble, I

00:59:15.869 --> 00:59:19.289
can just edit it out. And oftentimes even now

00:59:19.289 --> 00:59:22.670
when I'm talking to you, I'm almost saying the

00:59:22.670 --> 00:59:24.570
same sentence again with a slightly different

00:59:24.570 --> 00:59:27.230
cadence because when I record my own one, I will

00:59:27.230 --> 00:59:29.530
just repeat myself and choose the best version

00:59:29.530 --> 00:59:32.309
of what I've just said. and knowing that I'm

00:59:32.309 --> 00:59:35.849
going to edit that out. So it's an interesting

00:59:35.849 --> 00:59:38.210
new approach to the visual podcast because I

00:59:38.210 --> 00:59:43.349
can't censor myself as I go. Well, I just don't

00:59:43.349 --> 00:59:46.110
do scripts. So I'm always tumbling over my own

00:59:46.110 --> 00:59:49.250
words and my own tongue, quite literally. So

00:59:49.250 --> 00:59:53.190
we've talked in places about your many works

00:59:53.190 --> 00:59:56.170
so far. Have you got anything else in the pipeline?

00:59:56.949 --> 01:00:06.840
We almost forgot. Yes, so I am working on a new

01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:10.360
Viking Age version of When the Wolf Comes. So

01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:12.260
we just talked there about the fact that When

01:00:12.260 --> 01:00:14.340
the Wolf Comes is kind of space Vikings. It's

01:00:14.340 --> 01:00:17.760
set in a pagan, parallel pagan present. And a

01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.719
lot of people did come out of the woodwork and

01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:22.340
say to me, oh yeah, but I want to just play as

01:00:22.340 --> 01:00:25.159
a real Viking. I want to just play in the Viking

01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:30.539
Age. And so... Again, Shadow of the Demon Lord

01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:33.099
rules, which is such, again, a kissing cousin

01:00:33.099 --> 01:00:36.179
to D &D. They're so easy to pick up and play.

01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:40.199
I actually think they're better because Rob Spraub,

01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:42.900
the guy who came up with this rule set, worked

01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:45.219
on third and fourth edition and did all kinds

01:00:45.219 --> 01:00:47.280
of D &D stuff. And then he went away and said,

01:00:47.300 --> 01:00:50.980
I can do better. And I really think he did in

01:00:50.980 --> 01:00:53.239
terms of the core mechanics in the very simple

01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:57.400
light game, but with mechanics like wheels and

01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:01.280
woes. that make it just a little bit more fun

01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:07.980
a little bit more uh easy for a group to you

01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:11.280
know combine and coalesce anyway i digress because

01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.920
i am going to create and have written most of

01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:20.199
a game that has an awful lot of viking ship combat

01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:23.159
has viking settlement so you can go and build

01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:28.079
your own village and grow it from grow it from

01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:33.559
kind of that one long house to a fully fledged

01:01:33.559 --> 01:01:36.679
town. You can go on Viking raids because, again,

01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:42.280
that's a key component of going out and trading

01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:44.679
and raiding and plundering and all of those kind

01:01:44.679 --> 01:01:47.260
of rules of their trading being a key part of

01:01:47.260 --> 01:01:50.440
it. The front cover, which you can mystically

01:01:50.440 --> 01:01:58.230
reveal now, does... does show on the front, Mikkegaard,

01:01:58.429 --> 01:02:00.210
which is the Old Norse name for Constantinople.

01:02:00.530 --> 01:02:03.489
Constantinople at that time, all the way up until

01:02:03.489 --> 01:02:07.250
1453, was pretty much the largest city on the

01:02:07.250 --> 01:02:10.130
planet. It was the crossroads of the world. It

01:02:10.130 --> 01:02:15.269
was the successor to Rome. It had so much wealth

01:02:15.269 --> 01:02:19.329
and knowledge and the Kievan Rus, so we've talked

01:02:19.329 --> 01:02:26.760
about the eastern wing of the Norse and their

01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:31.000
Varangians nearly conquered it on at least two

01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:33.500
occasions, possibly a third. And again, that

01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:37.400
would be an amazing change in history, had they,

01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:41.820
instead of being the bodyguards to the Byzantine

01:02:41.820 --> 01:02:45.340
emperors. if they'd have actually just taken

01:02:45.340 --> 01:02:47.840
over the thing. Oh gosh, now you've got to be

01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:49.960
imagining Harold Hadrada offering the emperor

01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:52.260
and just claiming the throne, which she totally

01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:54.440
would do. Exactly, which she totally would do.

01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:59.480
And so imagine then, so we've got a Viking age

01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:05.059
that you can play in, where the emperors of the

01:03:05.059 --> 01:03:09.219
noble world, the heirs to the Roman Empire, Are

01:03:09.219 --> 01:03:11.719
people like Harold Harder on it? And so I've

01:03:11.719 --> 01:03:14.780
actually set it, and you can see on the cover,

01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:18.440
there's a great big nebula burning in the sky.

01:03:18.500 --> 01:03:21.719
That's the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula in 1053

01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:25.920
was visible to civilizations across the world.

01:03:26.260 --> 01:03:29.340
The Chinese, the Japanese, the Byzantines themselves

01:03:29.340 --> 01:03:32.579
remark upon the fact that in daylight for 14,

01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:36.500
15 days, you could see this supernova in the

01:03:36.500 --> 01:03:40.440
sky, and it persisted for many more years at

01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:45.400
night time. It was also the year when there was

01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:49.059
the great schism between the Eastern Orthodox

01:03:49.059 --> 01:03:52.699
Church and the Roman Catholic Church and the

01:03:52.699 --> 01:03:55.940
two religions went on their particular way. And

01:03:55.940 --> 01:04:00.219
so there's so much historicity to play with there.

01:04:00.420 --> 01:04:05.239
There's so much to... Enjoy, this was just after

01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:10.539
Blythe Erickson had sailed to Vinland. This was

01:04:10.539 --> 01:04:14.559
shortly after Ingvar the Far Traveled had sailed

01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:17.719
all the way into Sirkland, which is probably

01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:20.420
modern day Georgia. There's so much to explore.

01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:24.280
It's such a fascinating era. And to layer in

01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:31.119
this, my tried and... improved and patented,

01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:34.280
you know, notification of everything into that

01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:36.719
Viking Age. Just take it a little bit further.

01:04:37.320 --> 01:04:40.079
So 1066 will never happen. The Viking Age will

01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:43.539
never end. And you get a chance to play in it

01:04:43.539 --> 01:04:48.079
as, you know, anything from an Arabian to, you

01:04:48.079 --> 01:04:51.960
know, one of the Byzantines themselves, if you

01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:54.179
want to play that culture. I think there's just,

01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:56.079
there's this fascinating turning point, this

01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:59.719
crossroads in the world. And again, the Allfather

01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:03.800
Odin peering down and tinkering with all of it.

01:05:04.340 --> 01:05:06.500
I'm going to give you a question because it's

01:05:06.500 --> 01:05:09.539
linked to another guest I'm going to get on in

01:05:09.539 --> 01:05:12.239
another episode because I don't know if she's

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.619
quite signed up to Vikings or Curies. I think

01:05:14.619 --> 01:05:19.840
she's just too busy. Our mutual friend Emma from

01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:23.460
I want to say the University of Leicester. We've

01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:25.619
received lots of emails but yes she was a bit

01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:30.070
too busy to come and be Mercilessly killed off

01:05:30.070 --> 01:05:32.309
I'm sure she would have loved it if she had the

01:05:32.309 --> 01:05:34.969
time because she ran a brilliant one shot when

01:05:34.969 --> 01:05:37.349
I met her in Savannah for my debut conference

01:05:37.349 --> 01:05:40.010
last summer because I know she is particularly

01:05:40.010 --> 01:05:44.670
interested in not just how these Games like the

01:05:44.670 --> 01:05:46.869
one you're working on portrayed the Viking age,

01:05:46.949 --> 01:05:51.090
but also how they reflect gender roles and address

01:05:51.090 --> 01:05:53.869
the kind of like modern needs for equality in

01:05:53.869 --> 01:05:57.420
an age where there wasn't equality So although

01:05:57.420 --> 01:06:00.139
you've mentioned by being a Varangian, would

01:06:00.139 --> 01:06:03.559
women characters in your game be able to be Varangians?

01:06:03.579 --> 01:06:05.760
Because of course, that was exclusively male

01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:08.960
from what we know of history. Yeah. So that is

01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:11.880
a good game design question. And I'm going to

01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:13.880
fudge the answer because I haven't quite determined

01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:15.460
that. I mean, certainly, I've created it. That's

01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:17.420
fine. I know you're still working on it. So I

01:06:17.420 --> 01:06:21.880
can always ask you. We'll do a part two of this.

01:06:22.099 --> 01:06:27.130
No, I definitely have things like. a shield maiden

01:06:27.130 --> 01:06:34.369
plus path. And again, the path of the vulva,

01:06:34.409 --> 01:06:39.849
the path of the cirrus will be largely female

01:06:39.849 --> 01:06:44.750
-focused because there was just a natural way

01:06:44.750 --> 01:06:48.030
in which women tended to become healers, at least

01:06:48.030 --> 01:06:50.789
within the northern cultures. May well differ

01:06:50.789 --> 01:06:54.619
if you play... a Greek or a Byzantine culture.

01:06:56.179 --> 01:06:58.920
There's an awful lot of learning and education.

01:06:59.099 --> 01:07:02.119
The first hospitals were actually in Constantinople.

01:07:04.039 --> 01:07:08.500
In the Muslim world, Baghdad at that time was

01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:10.239
head and shoulders above everywhere in terms

01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:12.099
of learning the house of wisdom, all of that

01:07:12.099 --> 01:07:16.440
kind of stuff. So depending on your culture,

01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:21.429
we'll... Ultimately determine what you can play

01:07:21.429 --> 01:07:23.550
at least as far as the rule says could send once

01:07:23.550 --> 01:07:26.369
you get it home You do what you like. It's your

01:07:26.369 --> 01:07:28.969
game is there to have fun I'm just trying to

01:07:28.969 --> 01:07:31.989
give you some guidelines as to how it would have

01:07:31.989 --> 01:07:35.530
been played if you were rolling, you know skull

01:07:35.530 --> 01:07:39.050
dice and and you know drinking from the skull

01:07:39.050 --> 01:07:43.309
caps of your enemies Oh, well, I will definitely

01:07:43.309 --> 01:07:45.789
have you back on the podcast once that is all

01:07:45.789 --> 01:07:47.829
ready to kickstart and launch, and people sound

01:07:47.829 --> 01:07:50.010
the gala horn and let everybody know, and hopefully

01:07:50.010 --> 01:07:51.829
everyone will throw money at it, including me.

01:07:51.989 --> 01:07:54.670
I definitely will. Well, I'll be delighted to

01:07:54.670 --> 01:07:59.030
come back. I was really meant to be a little

01:07:59.030 --> 01:08:02.349
bit further ahead, but as you know, podcasts

01:08:02.349 --> 01:08:07.570
take time. Hurting CJ, Bill, and Steve on a weekly

01:08:07.570 --> 01:08:11.340
basis is actually a full -time job. Absolutely.

01:08:12.179 --> 01:08:14.400
Well I salute you for it and thank you for it

01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:18.060
profusely. It is a world ride Vikings of Valkyries.

01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:20.460
Please go check it out. All good podcast channels,

01:08:20.739 --> 01:08:23.659
audio and of course on YouTube. If you're watching

01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:26.199
on YouTube I have the playlist of all the episodes

01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:29.840
down on my channel page. Do check out Vikingverse

01:08:29.840 --> 01:08:32.380
.com where you can find out details of Ian's

01:08:32.380 --> 01:08:35.680
wonderful portfolio of books. And you can listen

01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:38.859
to the Old Norse pronunciations because somewhere

01:08:38.859 --> 01:08:42.640
in that list, as well as some free comics, so

01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:45.460
you can get a taste of the Yogan War, you can

01:08:45.460 --> 01:08:49.500
click through to Old Norse pronunciations of

01:08:49.500 --> 01:08:52.760
the phrases that are in the book and that will

01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:56.210
be... extremely useful for anyone who wants to

01:08:56.210 --> 01:08:59.090
wander into their local supermarket and say things

01:08:59.090 --> 01:09:01.229
like, these are not the droids you're looking

01:09:01.229 --> 01:09:05.630
for. In Old Norse. If you went in and just said

01:09:05.630 --> 01:09:08.350
that in English, you'd probably get trapped out.

01:09:08.369 --> 01:09:10.050
In the Old Norse also. I mean, I myself have

01:09:10.050 --> 01:09:11.550
got the book. I just actually haven't had a chance

01:09:11.550 --> 01:09:13.369
to look through it, but I think I might try it.

01:09:13.409 --> 01:09:15.890
I mean, it's just a case I've got no one to try

01:09:15.890 --> 01:09:17.729
Old Norse on who would really appreciate it.

01:09:17.729 --> 01:09:20.909
Go to the website, learn how to pronounce the

01:09:20.909 --> 01:09:24.279
phrases and start. Every one of your new episodes

01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:29.279
with just the phrase of the day Could do I might

01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:33.880
try that Or just make you just make your guests

01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:36.840
have to say the old north phrases a warm -up

01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:39.699
It's a challenge. I'm trying not to scare people

01:09:39.699 --> 01:09:44.220
off. I'm just about learning people Well, it's

01:09:44.220 --> 01:09:47.399
been a real delight chatting to Ian, and we both

01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:49.279
know that we could just be talking for hours

01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:51.859
and hours because we both have such a passion

01:09:51.859 --> 01:09:55.359
shared across literally half the world. If you're

01:09:55.359 --> 01:09:57.560
missing Canada, I'm in the UK, so there is a

01:09:57.560 --> 01:10:00.020
bit of a time gap. And I really ought to go and

01:10:00.020 --> 01:10:02.300
do the day job because my CEO has been calling

01:10:02.300 --> 01:10:08.500
me three times through this podcast. Priorities!

01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:12.640
Well, do send in my apologies. I will not keep

01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:17.460
you any longer. I will be on the podcast again

01:10:17.460 --> 01:10:20.300
soon. And thank you so much for your time. And

01:10:20.300 --> 01:10:22.220
thank you to you viewers and listeners for listening

01:10:22.220 --> 01:10:43.819
and joining us today. Thank you very much. Thank

01:10:43.819 --> 01:10:46.460
you very much for listening to this episode.

01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:49.579
I hope you enjoyed the discussions between my

01:10:49.579 --> 01:10:52.880
special guests and myself. Please do check out

01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:55.399
the episode blurb for links to their works and

01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:58.420
websites. If you liked this episode let me know

01:10:58.420 --> 01:11:01.199
by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if you

01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.460
learned something new in the comments and of

01:11:03.460 --> 01:11:06.399
course click subscribe to Valhalla Conversations

01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:09.699
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01:11:09.699 --> 01:11:12.239
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01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:15.890
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01:11:23.489 --> 01:11:25.050
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