Valhalla Conversations podcast. I'm your host
Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky,
and I am a proud Viking geek. I fell in love
with the history, culture and mythology of the
Viking Age and I have been on an endless quest
for more ever since. Join me as I discuss all
things North with those who have been inspired
by Viking Age history and North mythology in
their creative works, or those who have studied
the sagas and archaeology and review how such
subjects are being presented to modern audiences
today. If you like Viking stuff, you are welcome
in my Valhalla and I hope you stay for the conversation.
Welcome, everyone, to Valhalla Conversations
podcast. In episode 12, this is a special group
panel review of Twilight of the Gods, an animated
series on Netflix, which introduces you to Thor
and Loki in a very non -marvelous way. It's refreshingly
bold, quite brutal and savage and full of blood
and gall, and there is sex as well. So it's definitely
not for 16s and definitely 18s and over, I would
recommend. and I am delighted to say I'm joined
by two returning guests and a new one in my humble
mead hall of my little geeky Valhalla which is
Valhalla Conversations. So we shall introduce
Caroline, Sasha and Kim and Caroline if you'd
like to introduce yourself and your wonderful
works please. Hello I'm Caroline Larrington and
I am a retired professor of medieval European
literature from the University of Oxford. I've
written quite a lot about Old Norse myth over
the last 40 years or so and I haven't stopped
yet. And I've become increasingly interested
in Old Norse medievalism, what happens to Old
Norse myth in contemporary culture and that's
what I'm working on a lot at the moment. Brilliant,
thank you. I'm glad you could be joining with
us again Phil, what is your... Third? No, second
episode with me today. It's because we've had
previous incarnations in MCM Comic -Con, which
is how this all wonderful started. Yes, that's
what gave me the buzz to do this thing. So thank
you, Caroline, for being part of that journey.
Sasha, could you introduce yourself and your
many wonderful works? Yeah, I'm Sasha from Slightly
Reckless Games. We're a TTRPG company based in
the UK. We started by making a kind of dark fantasy
samurai inspired TTRPG and then last year we
kickstarted a Norse mythology based TTRPG called
Berserker. So I'm nowhere near as esteemed as
the other two guests, but I can certainly talk
about it from that point of view. But yeah, that's
us. Really welcome. And of course, I will definitely
be getting Sasha on in a future episode later
in the year, ladies and gentlemen, and folks
listening and watching to talk about his berserker
TTRPD because I have thrown money at it. So I'm
looking forward to getting all the wonderful
goodies in the Kickstarter and then trying to
find space on my valuable bookshelves to fit
it on. So thank you. I'm glad you could join
us today. And of course, Kim, who is another
familiar face to people who've been following
the podcast so far, could you please remind everyone
of your wonderful works? Yeah, absolutely. I'm
Kim Barton and I write under the name KS Barton.
I'm the author of the Norse Family Trilogy, a
story in which a young Viking woman and a Viking
warrior are caught in a deadly blood feud between
two families. I typically write historical fiction
and fantasy set in the Viking age, and so far
I've written six novels in which I like to explore
themes of family, honor, and strength within
this Norse mythology, Norse society. I also co
-host the podcast Shield Maidens, Women of the
Norse World. And I just really, I have an MA
in Humanities and I just really love to learn
about history through stories, my own stories
and other people's stories. So I just, I love,
I love studying stuff like this, like that what
we're going to do just to see how everything
turns out. Brilliant. Well, I'm glad you could
join us again. And of course, please do go check
out her wonderful podcast, Shield Maidens, Wind
of the North's World, which she presents with
Johanna Wittenberg as well. It's really fascinating.
Lots of amazing topics and stories of amazing
women, both mythological and historical, they
cover. And their last episode with Nancy Marine
Brown was amazing. I really, really enjoyed that.
Yeah, it was great to talk to her. Twilight of
the Gods on Netflix. Now I remember coming across
this, ironically enough, when I was in Norway
and I was happened to be in the lovely company
of Caroline Lamington at my debut academic appearance,
the symposium in Stavanger. And I remember sharing
the trailer with Caroline and we're both like,
what are they doing? Because it seemed very,
it was so uplandish. We couldn't quite work out
what they were doing. It was very sweary, wasn't
it? It was. They hit the 18 mark. In the Hall
of the Barnet, going, yeah, are we allowed to
swear on this? You can, you can. I don't have
a bleeper, but I believe adults mainly listen
to my jokes. I was going to say, I'll probably
swear without thinking about it. We have the
main figures all going, oh yeah, cool, we're
going to go and kill some fucking gods. really
right okay this is this is not disney clearly
marble not even marble yes um i think i know
but actually there's a dragon as well so they're
gonna have to kill the dragon as well as going
to kill the gods because i think that's the line
we're gonna get the apples isn't it we're gonna
kill a fucking dragon as well yes i'm going to
kill a fucking dragon says and barry the dwarf
um I think I remember that preview trailer had
the words kind of like say kind of like blood
sex and Vikings or something along that line
definitely had blood the word sex popping up
in that preview trailer from what I remember
and there is a lot of it there's a lot of both
fair to say there was a lot of gore there is
there is it thankfully all animated but it's
it's very visual very very visual but not I mean
I've seen more grotesque things in other mainly
Japanese anime series which do dive deep into
many taboo subjects. But anyway, so as I mentioned
at the start, this presents a very what I call
refreshingly bold and brave in many ways take
on two of the canon that many people are familiar
with which is of course Thor and Loki. And so
we'll start off with the big guy in the room
with a hammer which is Thor. Who would like to
share their thoughts on his depiction, portrayal
and story arc through the series? I'll start.
So I didn't have any issue with Thor being the
bad guy. That retelling, because I feel like
this is mythology and these are stories and stories
evolve and change and different people see things
in different ways. I didn't have an issue with
that. But I did, it felt like it didn't feel
like it. He was so overpowered in the first episode
and then later that was gone. Like, and that
kind of bugged me. I had an issue with that because
in that first episode, he was just like, I don't
know, just blowing the giants up with his lightning.
And then later on when he was fighting with Sigrid
one -on -one. He didn't do any of that kind of
stuff or any of the subsequent fights with Sigrid
and her crew. It felt like he just lost a lot
of his power. And I had a little bit of an issue
with that. Maybe he was holding back a bit. That's
not the impression I've had. Yeah, that he's
got. I don't know what we're going to do about
spoilers here. Sorry, yes. There will be spoilers
because there's only eight episodes and it's
only season one. We don't know yet, or at least
I don't know yet, if there will be a season two,
especially with the way they ended season one,
which we'll get to. So yes, sorry. Spoiler warning.
Spoiler warning. I apologize. Spoiler warning.
Sorry. Carry on, Caroline. Yeah. Well, I think
what you could see was that Secret, at least,
even if some of the other characters didn't have
plot armor. And so you couldn't have a situation
where Thor was just going to... blow her up with
some lightning because right yeah end of story
and so there was a kind of part of the mechanism
for making it possible to have season two was
taking Thor out of what we were kind of led to
believe was the final battle was going to be
Ragnarok and putting him in Valhalla Where the
turn up later on so it seemed as if there was
some other power that was and I think That Kim's
absolutely right here. There's some other power.
Is it the faiths? Is it the norms? Something
holding him back from just unleashing all that
crazy stuff that we saw in episode one Yeah,
I also got the impression as well. Like if you'd
believe what kind of Balder says to sif about
him kind of wanting to be more and to die that
maybe he's kind of Holding back for that reason
as well as in a case of you know Someone's actually
challenging him on a kind of physical level that
he isn't used to but from a game Development
point of view that as you say that first episode
kind of changed my design of Thor in our game
it was like Was like now we asked to feel kind
of that powerful Which is a hard line to toe
in a game because it's like you don't want them
to be undefeatable as like You know as a an antagonist
for the players and But I gave him some kind
of more abilities that mirrored that first episode
so he had something really deals like damage
on on the same kind of scale of like blowing
people up and What I thought was really interesting
about that first episode was the way that it
positioned you in the point of view of the Giants.
Yes. It seemed to be a big lumbering, actually
quite a jolly bunch of people, secretive relatives,
and all got together going to have a nice wedding
and so on. And then Thor comes in to flatten
everybody for no particularly good reason except
That's what Thor does mythologically if he kills
giants. And it made me think we have some myths
in which Thor kills the giants because they deserve
it, because they've done something antagonistic
to the gods. But you've also got this kind of
throwaway line, in a sense, in the myth. So where's
Thor? Oh, he's off in the East killing giants.
That's what he does. and you don't see that close
up and you certainly don't see it from the Giants
perspective. But it reminded me in a way a bit
of Genevieve Gornicek's The Witch's Heart which
by the time you get to the end of that you are
totally rooting for Giants because you've had
enough of the gods and their corrupt way and
their annoying little habits. And Joanne Harris
already started that I think with the Gospel
of Loki. changing the way in which the the ice
here were previously thought of as troubled maybe
um with some oath breaking in their history but
you know basically the good guys and from the
get -go with episode one you think the ice here
are not the good guys here and i understand that
that's something that may come out of god of
war that positioning of the ice here as an oppressive
order that really needs to be overthrown. So
I was really taken aback by this, but then I
thought, OK, that seems to be what the pedigree
is. I must admit, for me personally, yes, Thor
was grotesquely. powerful, dominating, and just
outright cruel, basically. They don't even really
fight the giants, he just used his hammer like
a gun and just zapped them all to death, which
was almost a bit lazy, really. He didn't even
hit them with the head, which is what he's canonically
known to do. But it also made me think that they've
taken the lay of Thrym. set up and completely
twisted it so instead of because of course Thor
and Val had come looking for Loki we never told
or hinted at what Loki's done to make Thor hunt
him down like this and I'm thinking maybe they're
taking the end like just before Loki is bound
when he is running away from Thor at all opportunities
maybe that's alluded to but but yes that made
me think because of course there is a giant wedding
in that one and Loki and Thor are part of that
canonical legend where they go in disguise, Thor
in a wedding dress, Loki shape -fifting into
a beautiful bridesmaid and eventually he just
gets hammered out and kill everyone unfortunately.
So I thought that was maybe a really interesting
twist on that but as you say it does put you
brilliantly at the opposite end of seeing Thor
not as the good god, the guy that gives us rain
and helps the crops grow and gives us wonderful
lightning shows in the sky but as the god of
violence that he often exerts in the legends
and the Eddas and so on. But of course we meet
Thor quite halfway through the episode after
meeting Sigrid who is one of the protagonists.
She is a Shieldmaiden, but of half -giant heritage.
We also meet her partner, King2B Leaf, who is
of the Balsong family, which I thought, ooh,
what are they doing with the Balsongs? Where
is that going? And again, after rewatching it
a second time, there isn't much of the canon
of the Balsong. It just seems to be a nice name
to give credit to it all. She herself has another
shieldmaiden friend called Herbor. Now Herbor
was another shieldmaiden taken from Legend, Many
the Cursed Sword of Tiefing, which I actually
had the good position of seeing performed dramatically
at the Orbit Biking Festival only last week,
which was amazing. And there's so many other
characters, but when Sigrid and Leif go to meet
the giant kind, we learn from Sigrid's father
that they have had a past quabble or a war with
the gods and they're spitsworn and I love the
dialogue they've got spitsworn they've got kennings
nearly everything in this series um like an oath
and it takes kind of like leaf to give them the
valsal horde to persuade them actually yeah we'll
make an oath with you so we don't go and kill
you see me you now like my daughter kind of kind
of thing um But Loki does emerge by the end of
season one. He introduces himself in quite dramatic
style down in his daughter's kingdom of Hel.
And Hel herself has horns. Now this is actually
going on to another point. Haven't we watched
it a second time? I was surprised to actually
see that there are horned helmets in this series.
I thought, oh, we have a series that horns, but
no, in the battle that Sigrid and Leif meet at,
the Bad Army has horned helmets. But then also
near the end of the series where they're all
fighting in front of Valhalla, all Valhalla soldiers
have horned helmets. Again, it's the motif that
we can't escape from, but is recognizably biking,
so we shall let it lie. But yes, so that was
all. As you say about him being overpowering
and not being as powerful by the end, and of
course, Sasha, you mentioned about Sifl and Baldr's
conversation about maybe he has an issue with
being immortality, maybe he's tired of it, maybe
he just wants putting out into pasture and being
shot, as my father would say, kind of thing.
I think that was a real nice touch that they
actually kind of explored beneath his big masculinity
issues. She's always kind of like demeaning siff
about her sexual ability and going off with another
woman slash goddess who I've got no idea where
she's come from at all and I will ask you all
about that in a minute. But I thought that was
a real nice issue because is it nice to be a
god? Is it nice to be divine and to live forever
and have all this power but then see anything?
Do you have any more thoughts about those issues
that were explored through Thor and his possible
vulnerabilities underneath it all that drive
this aggression, this rage, this violence? That
conversation, I'd forgotten about that conversation,
but it reminded me, and I'll say this about the
entire show, it was very, very much inspired
by the Lord of the Rings movies. There were so
many scenes, some of the music, certain things
that were very, I just kept going, hmm, that
was inspired by the Peter Jackson movies. That
was inspired by the Peter Jackson movies, just
the way it was filmed. But that conversation
that they had also reminded me of Tolkien. the
way that his elves can become world weary, that
they get tired of being immortal, and they'll
sometimes just go off to die because it's just
exhausting to be immortal. And I don't remember
if it was Elrond in the books or who it was.
It's been a while since I've actually read the
books, but one of the elves talked about the
gift. of mortality that mortal men have, that
it's a gift to be mortal because then you can
like burn brightly and rather than this kind
of slow diminishing that happens to the elves.
So that conversation between Sif and Baldr reminded
me very much of Tolkien's beliefs about immortality.
Yeah, I think it's Elrond that tells Arwen when
he's angry because she wants to be mortal, I
think. Well, I know she's she wants to marry
Aragorn doesn't she he's explaining that he's
more so you'll outlive them all But I thought
it was interesting with them Come back to the
the the Thor and his kind of Balder saying that
he you know and these morals that it kind of
spoke about that and they had that scene but
then I think it was like either the episode or
maybe two episodes prior where he's just kind
of wrestling with his son and his son kind of
pushes him back while he's distracted and he
you know lashes out bad parenting there, just
great bad parenting and see that he only has
one son because of course in the law he has twins
does he not Caroline? not necessarily twins but
certainly he's got sons That moment where it's
clear that his son, small as he is, is stronger
than his father, is something that we find in
Skál Skápa Mál in one of the bits of the Prose
Edda. Thor has managed to topple the giant Hrungnir,
who's huge and has his head made of stone, which
makes him extra heavy, I guess. And Hrungnir
falls over Thor, and Thor is trapped under his
leg. And so he's kind of lying there, I imagine,
kind of like a beetle. And his son, Magni, comes
along and lifts the leg up and goes, there you
are, Dad. And Thor gets up and kind of, and it's
one of those moments where you can see how the
next generation is beginning to come into its
own. We know why Thor isn't going to be there
after Ragnarök because of the world serpent.
Magni and Modi, his two sons are. And so you
can see that that kind of, that power is still
vested, maybe more, maybe a couple of more moral
kids, who knows. But it continues when the world
is renewed again. Very interesting to learn that
I did not know about that one. Okay, so switching
from Thor to Loki then. who of course reveals
himself at the end of episode one and declares
to Sigrid after dragging her through corpse blood
through the earth all the way to hell. What a
lovely way to go. Even without a clothes, I thought
you couldn't put a last not keep a dress on but
no. She says kind of like oh good thing you get
to taste for blood because I want to give you
thors and of course he does introduce himself
as Loki, Laufi's son and she actually challenges
him I believe Sigrid challenges him like kind
of like if you're of King of Giants, why were
you not there to stop Thor slaughtering my entire
family on my wedding day? Which is interesting.
So Loki, he is definitely, he's got the smooth
charisma, I guess you could say that's recognisable.
It is a firm fixture that a lot of interpretations
have presented Loki as having. But he also has,
seems to have, not just his shape shifting ability,
but also an ulterior motive that isn't just about
causing mayhem and problems for the gods and
then having to fix the problems that he then
makes because it does emerge as the episodes
reveal especially one particular episode which
I absolutely loved which was the scapegoat god
that he's doing it all in order to protect his
children which I think is a wonderful twist to
the Loki characteristic of not just wanting to
burn the world because he hates what the gods
have done to his children, but trying to protect
them, regardless of what the gods are trying
to do. Was that the episode at the beginning
where Angerboda gives birth to Hel and Thor shows
up to get rid of him and he explains what's going
to happen to all three? That's in the scapegoat,
yeah, that's where him and Leif are stuck in
Honia's head. That's right. Oh, right, OK. And
they're just getting flashbacks of memories and
their regret and the woe that weighs them all
down and is meant to make them basically never
leave and trapped in that insane part of a magical
universe, I suppose. But yes, that was an interesting
take, I thought, especially kind of like having
Hale not just be half linear or vertically dead
and alive, but literally shape shift from being
dead to alive, albeit having horns, which I will
try not to keep picking on. But I quite liked
that. And of course, Jormungandr is typically
a son in the law and the legends, but it's depicted
as a female. She can shape shift from either
the giant snake in the sea or being a scaled
figure with short hair and she decides to get
in bed with Thor basically by causing a shipwreck
which was an interesting way of luring him as
it emerged through later episodes. How and why
they do that I'm not entirely sure even after
a second re -watching it seems to be hinted that
it's in order to keep them alive even though
Loki knows well even if you do go to bed with
Thor he's still gonna kill the evil though you
will kill him or something along those lines
well it's a kind of love and death thing isn't
it because there's that moment in um in heme
square though where oh no actually it's in one
of the scalded verses i think where thor goes
out on the fishing expedition with the giant
hemeer and he he hauls up the world serpent and
there's this moment where they're looking at
each other and you can see there how The there's
this kind of attraction that our fates are bound
together and that can end up as I will kill you
or and you will kill me or It can end up as we
will have sex together at some point That's not
now obviously in the middle of this rowing boat
in the ocean But I thought that was that was
quite clever to to make that bond Between them
that fated bomb not just yeah, you're my doom
Sooner or later, we're going to have to face
it that when actual Ragnarök actually comes.
But to get that going before. And the idea that
Loki's own shape shifting goes down into the
children as well is really clever. Actually,
I don't remember if Fenrir's shape shifts. No,
he was a pot. And then he's just a giant pair
of big blue eyes in the gloom. That's all we
see in his giant form. and only a brief glimpse
of him as a giant wolf with Odin and he is a
whole other complex character or not depending
on how deep you look into him because he actually
had a very brief appearance in this whole saga
events because it's pretty much like just a triangle
of warfare and conflicts between Sigrid, Loki
and Thor and how many times it can go around.
But what else do you guys think about Loki's
character and story arc? Well, he seemed to me
to be there were you could see Tom Hiddleston
kind of hovering behind him a bit and Patterson
Joseph who voices him has got it's not the same
voice as Hiddleston, but he's got that kind of
smooth voice that that Hiddleston can do when
he's not wisecracking he can do smooth very nicely,
I think and I thought Loki was doing exactly
what I expected him to do until exactly that
scapegoat god where for me that was kind of where
the show stopped being quite so here's a game
-derived plot Here's a big set piece battle,
here's another one, here's another one, here's
some special effects, here's some more sex, here's
people doing weird things to their bodies. And
it's where it started really getting psychological,
obviously in Hynier's head. You began to, you
got a lot of important information about backstory
and you got Leif suddenly feeling guilt and something
a bit like remorse about his Viking career. Yes
I thought that was another really interesting
take about whether any any Viking actually came
back from a raid and regretted killing loads
of families and children and then taking them
into slavery thought because as much as humanity
has an inept ability for cruelty as well as creativity
and all the good things we can do we have this
cruel streak but can anyone really be one way
or the other? kind of like yeah it was a really
interesting take I quite liked but yes the scapegoat
god I thought was really really good and especially
when kind of like the leaf says but it's all
you Loki you do all these things and the king
goes no man make man made me what I am for everything
was it every boy who made didn't make his bed
that morning or something something really benign
like that I've got loads of notes of quats Loads
of quotes, where is it? While you're looking
for that, I love the visual of Loki. I love his
hair and the way they designed his face and everything.
I really liked the visuals of him. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm glad I'm glad. I thought he was really refreshingly
well done. He looked distinctly different as
well as Freya. did, because she was a Vanir,
so they really showed the differences that they
weren't just all homogeneously one type of person,
type of race, their differences really shone
through. Sticking with the Loki thing, when Loki
meets Freya, and I really like that it was her
big cat that caught him as a salamander and carried
him all the way to her hall, she actually asks
him kind of like, why do you use your mother's
name? And I can't remember which episode it was
now. And I believe it says, he says, it's because
my mum didn't hit me, but my father did, or something
along those lines. But that's in the mythology,
right, that he goes by Loki Laufey. He does,
but I really like that that's referenced. I really
like that, because not many people realise that.
They may know kind of like, oh, yes, his father
was a giant, but many people forget that he did
have a mother on the Azir tribe. clam side kind
of thing. And also in the Marvell universe his
father is called Lofey and so you hear the name
and you think oh yeah that's his dad if you don't
know enough Scandinavian to know that's a feminine
name so it marked him out as being different
because everybody else is somebody somebody's
son except for Loki who is just identifying down
this maternal line. I found the quote. Freya
says, why do you wear your mother's name? Again,
the dialogue. I just love it. I know it sounds
very kind of Lord of the Rings -esque. It's full
of different words that you wouldn't really put
in today's vernacular. But I just love the way
it sounded. And he says, my father hit me. My
mother did not. and then he makes everything
really weird by asking if contracts are made
in mother's milk and Fred goes yes of course
they are and kind of like she nudges her bosom
rather effectively and i'm like really you're
drinking that i'm like okay okay this is it's
got weird um but yes um in terms of scapegoat
god leaf says but you're supposed to be the root
of all that's wicked and you cannot accept yourself
and then look he goes i am only what men made
me i am the beast of unburning And I only exist
so men may blame me. I might be a scapegoat god,
which I thought is, yeah, that's an interesting
way. I remember growing up when we used to get
into trouble. My mum would go, oh, so Mr. Nobody
did it, did he? Did Mr. Nobody not tidy up the
room? That immediately connected to that episode
of my childhood. again, blaming something that
is beyond our control. And yeah, that is, in
effect, Loki. It's like people blame him for
all sorts. But interesting enough, after this
great outpouring and opening up of his raw soul,
quite literally to leave for the Nihonia's head,
when they do come out, when they escape with
the help of Sigrid and lots of others, he completely
changes tack in front of everyone. He... announces
kind of like he, when Sigrid and Leif sing, oh
yes, the video gods, we've given you apples,
we're sorry they nearly killed you. That's a
whole other episode we'll get to, dear viewers
and listeners. Can you please join us in toppling
the Isaiah? But then he goes, oh, but you would
give away my glory. And then he says, I am but
a flint, the all -father strikes. I am fire and
flame. I am Loki, the loathsome and the blamed.
with a sly nod to Leif and then he vanishes in
a puff of magical smoke very dramatically and
show him and I thought yes he is he's back to
his kind of like his um persona that he likes
to present to everyone so that moment of weakness
that is now just between him and Leif I don't
think he really shows any weaknesses towards
Sigrid in any particular aspect but yes I really
liked how it emerged And even on the battlefield
at the end, actually, when Sigrid and Leif are
talking after just about evading, just about
evading, a big explosion that Thor calls by hitting
the ground really hard with his hammer and sending
literally everyone flying in the air and obliterating
everything. Kind of like he goes, why are you
doing this? Why are you doing this? And then
she realizes, oh, it's to protect your family.
At least your family are alive. I'm trying to
fight for dead family kind of thing And of course
the brilliant line that I think was used a lot
in the trailers in promotion for this was kind
of like a god killing a god That's that's that
comes and goes but a mortal killing a god. That's
enough to remake the world and I just Absolutely.
Yes, it's it's challenging the status quo from
top to bottom actually having the bottom come
up and literally pop all the top off right figuratively
in a brilliant way. I will stop gattering and
let you guys have some of the floor. Any other
thoughts on Loki? I thought that episode did
a good job of kind of humanizing him a little
bit because I think it's quite easy. I think,
I don't know how manipulative he'd been up to
that point but it seemed to, that seemed to humanize
him a little bit but I did appreciate that kind
of, I think it might have been the episode after
that, that he kind of Bursts on the bar his head
kind of which seemed unnecessarily brutal I don't
know if that was kind of more of a reaction to
You know, I'd kind of shown himself a little
bit and then that was in just going right now.
I'm still you know, still Loki Yeah, that's a
good point that was a surprise death I did not
see coming But then I guess that's very much
Loki in a way tying up all the loose ends. Because
before that, they get into that citadel in Asgard,
we have that episode of Now Here Of, where they
all have a brilliant storytelling episode. Yeah,
a typical eve of battle. It reminded me of the
night before the Battle of Winterfell in Game
of Thrones, which itself is a bit like... I thought
very much based on Shakespeare's Henry V, and
it was the eve of Agincourt, where everybody,
you go around and everybody's getting nerfed
up for battle, but they're trying to distract
themselves and they're talking about their lives.
I thought that was really well done. It had some
great versions of different myths being retold,
as well as teaching you quite a lot about people's
history. Siegfried tells her story, for example,
and we hear all about Eil, the poet. and slave
and how he came to be enslaved. He's an interesting
character. I think it would be nice to talk about
for a moment if we get time. Oh, yes, please
do. I guess just quickly highlight that particular
episode because that's when we first really get
a visual of Odin, who, of course, I immediately
called him out the moment he walks on into the
encampment and everyone's saying, storyteller,
storyteller, tell us the story. a cloak, one
eye, hasn't got the hat like Gandalf, but I mean,
yes, it's just so visibly Odin. Like, how do
these people not know it's Odin? How? And of
course he tells this tale of the two giants and
the enchanted millstone and why they're salt
in the sea. And it's like, okay, that's an interesting
giant tale. And then everyone else has a story.
So the giants tell about Loki enchanting. a horse
as a horse to make slipnear and that whole thing
and there's a great course ongoing pun on kind
of like enter Loki and Loki enters and then entering
Loki in a very sexual way because of course he
becomes a mare to have sex with a stallion and
that kind of thing. But when Odin reveals himself
at the end of that episode, when Sigrid's thinking
about what if this happens, what if this doesn't,
and he remarkably gives her back the spear that
he has. I'm like, why don't you just walk off
with the spear now, Odin, it'll solve so many
problems. He kind of reminds her that although
those giant girls did get their freedom, they
also died, which I think was a really clever
way of saying, just so you know, if you come
up against me, you might die. But yes. But yes,
speaking of stories, as you mentioned Caroline,
Eagle the Poet is a storyteller throughout a
lot of these episodes and he leaves after regaining
his freedom and thus his own story and he comes
back after telling the story of Sigrid's attempt
to topple the gods. So please do share what your
thoughts are on Eagle the Poet. He's obviously,
his name is taken from the poet A. L. Scattlegrim,
one of the greatest poets in Old Norse literature.
And so I'm quite perked up when he introduced
himself. I thought, well, how A -like is he going
to be? Is he going to pluck people's eyes out
and get very drunk and vomit in their faces?
All the stuff that the actual Icelandic figure
does. And he doesn't really, he's not as brutal
as that, partly, of course, because he's got
this slave status and partly because he's one
of those I don't say tick boxes but the the show
is really interested in diversity when you gather
together all of the the band of Avengers you've
got women for the dwarf you've got the gay guy
you've got The leader is a woman and you've got
the the safe corners where you got older women
thought was interesting So Eid tells about how
he became enslaved by Leif, how he was kind of
cast out from the community because he was gay
and then yet killed and taken off by Leif. But
also one of the things that's quite striking
about him, I think, is that he's the kind of
comedy person. He's the one with the wisecracks.
buries up. And it struck me that he had quite
a lot of the poet in The Witcher, Dandelion.
And that, I think, has something to do as well
with the depiction of Chaucer going back to A
Knight's Tale. It's the poet as a kind of commentator.
He doesn't fight particularly, but he's just
kind of, he's there with a quip and he's the
one who's going to tell the story later too.
And I thought he was really quite nicely done
because he has got, he can produce verse in a
fairly plausible way. Yeah, he did kind of echo
a very kind of like very modern, normal, relatable.
experiencing a voice of things, especially like
why are we seeing this vulva, this wicked witch
that supposedly eats her and children of a Freya,
why are we going up against the gods? He asked
the very kind of like most obvious questions
that we as audience may be wondering, like why
are they doing all these dangerous crazy things?
But I also liked that he had a little bit of
cedar magic in him and that he kind of carved
runes and then cast a little bit of a magic spell
because of course cedar is a very Feminine led
or managed magic and of course that then introduced
to the seed Kona, which is a vulva and everyone
Knows them as a hair, but then they reveal that
they were actually born a boy But their mother
I think their mother said oh she saw a woman's
future for me So I now wear my woman's clothes
and keep the story going. So of course that introduces
the whole transgender Identity community and
themes to which I thought is interesting. So
of course Odin supposedly Well, he gets teased
by Loki in Loki's famous insults round at Njord's
Hall down under the sea. I'm like, Odin, you
wear women's clothes and you do women's magic
kind of thing. And so that possibly might be
a reference of linking that in something as well
as kind of. embracing all diversity and ethnicity
as well. But yes, you mentioned about older women
because her thought, she is a very mature woman.
She's probably the oldest female in the group
besides possibly the vulva. She has no unknown
age. But she mentions having had three sons and
having lost them in battle and wanting to join
them as well, which I thought was a really interesting
twist as the journey went on. kind of like the
ramifications increased just how will I get to
see my sons if we topple the gods what becomes
of Valhalla where do we go and then of course
spoiler alert she doesn't sadly get to go to
Valhalla because she picks a cursed sword which
again I think is a nice twist maybe very loosely
to the sword of tirthing Well, that's what Hell
says. She goes, oh, she can't go to Allah because
she's got a cursed soul, so I'm taking her. But
don't worry, she's no pawn of the gods anymore.
I'll look after it down with my undead friends
kind of thing. Well, Dierfing was cursed. Yes,
it was. It was cursed. She didn't die from the
sword. She passed it to her sons who then killed
each other, or one killed the other, I should
say. But yes. This is a kind of interesting development,
though, isn't it? Because we've, according to
the traditional myth, if you die in battle and
you're male, you're going to Valhalla. And everybody
else is going down to the Hall of Hell, which
is why Baldur ends up there because he doesn't
die in battle. And yet nobody in modern retellings,
people are really a bit unhappy about that. And
you find in quite a lot of games, for example,
I think in Assassin's Creed but you get it as
early as the 1958 Vikings movie the idea that
if you really want to go to Valhalla and you
die with a sword in your hand off you can go
even if you weren't in battle and you have the
female protagonists in the Assassin's Creed Valhalla
going yeah I'm going to Valhalla people are going
to Valhalla in Vikings the TV women are going
to Valhalla the TV show, even this kind of crazy
polar bear that turns up in one of the side adventures
of his age. The bear's going to Valhalla, I mean
who isn't in Valhalla? So the rules have really
got bent around that. But one of the things in
that book by Kate Hartfield, the Valkyrie, that
we were talking about in Svanger a bit weren't
these? you get an alternative set up where the
Valkyries who have been working for Odin and
now starting to work for Freya who takes half
the dead and Freya is running a kind of independent
post -death franchise there and so there's a
kind of sense that Freya's role becomes quite
complex in this show that she does have half
the dead she's got a say in this she's got some
influence over the Valkyries and although they're
still quite rule -bound she and Hel are working
together and and Heather's gonna be okay even
if and I think the whole curse weapon thing you
and Fahri did warn them all to be fair but he
didn't say what the curse how the curse would
play out No, that is true. Do go read the Valkyrie
by Kate Hatfield. It's a mind -blowing explanation
of Valkyrie and of course around the whole saga
of the ball songs of Brynhildr and Sigurd. It's
very not Wagner's operatic cycle which I quite
around. even though I don't think I could quite
watch the whole cycle. And I make a comment about
the Valkyries. I was so annoyed that they they
were naked and we get all these close -ups of
their boobs. I was like do we really have to
go to this you know 15 year old guy fantasy of
what the Valkyries would look like. They're war
-maidens. It's a very Zack Snyder thing to do.
Yeah, there were a lot of boobs. They had winged
helmets of different styles and types, but I
was struck by how distant they were from everything.
Even though they were literally hovering over
the battlefield, they always kind of like beamed
down like in Star Trek, then beamed back out.
kind of like Sigrid was appealing to them very
directly kind of like please take my friend please
take her and they were just kind of like not
an emotion or not one word was said and something
like who who is giving their orders how are they
choosing what again I had questions more than
answers from their kind of their role in this
but of course that then just nicely goes back
to Odin who of course is typically seen as the
commander -in -chief of the Valkyries and he
tells them go get that one and that one and that
one and that one in the shopping list of dead
people to go get em because Odin is presented
in a very very starkly different embodiment,
I guess you could say, in that he's shown as
having three aspects of himself, a king, a storyteller,
and of course the wise being that he sacrificed
himself on a tree, which not many people of the
Marvel fandom will know that he did hang himself
on a tree, to himself, stabbed himself, gave
himself a gracious wound, and also the runes
at the same time. I liked that depiction of Odin.
I liked that they showed him that way. And then
when she, the said Kona grabbed hold of memory
and killed it. And then Odin started almost like,
like he was glitching, you know, he was like
glitch Odin. And it was, it was very interesting.
I thought to have that happen, to have him be,
and then the way his voice sounded and like he
was everywhere. It was, I thought it was very
interesting. I did not like the vision of Jesus.
That completely jerked me right out of the story.
I understood what they were trying to do. They
were showing that Ragnarok is the end. People
are going to stop worshipping you and they're
going to start worshipping this God. But just
the church and just him. It was the touch of
the face. I thought, why are they touching each
other? Why? It took me out of the world. Because
it did look reckon though it's me. I thought
isn't that some Patrick's Cathedral in New York.
You look like that. Yeah, yeah In American setup.
Yeah, and then I'm surprised he wasn't freaking
out about the cars driving around him Yeah, I
kind of like the new gold that emerged flying
down from like why he's hanging a tree and then
suddenly he's seeing anyone else but the thing
that got me about that particular scene in century
View that And in 19th century mythological treatments,
what you get is the idea that it's Thor who is,
of course you get that already in the sagas,
that Thor is the big guy who is standing up against
the white Christ who's being brought by the missionaries.
And you have that in Longfellow, for example,
Thor's challenge. He talks about how there's
Thor stomping around in his chariot waiting in
his his hammer and shouting and being a war god.
But the gentle Galilean goes, Thor, no, the future
does not belong to you. So this idea that this
peaceful religion is going to this place, the
kind of warmongering of Old Norse religion is
something that you did get in the 19th century.
But what you had there with Odin hanging from
his tree and Christ hanging from his tree. was
very much kind of modern scholarly speculation,
I guess, going back to the idea of the hang gods
that you have in the Golden Bough. But also people
have said, why doesn't Snorri Sturluson ever
tell us about Odin hanging from the tree? It's
in the Poetic Edda, but it's not in the Prose
Edda. And people have suggested it's because
Snorri thought about that myth and thought, ah,
there's only one hang god. in my world, and that's
Christ. We're not going to suggest that Christ
have those parallels. But the scriptwriters picked
up on that, I think. And that's how we ended
up with, oh, look, suddenly we're in New York.
And I find that a bit jarring. I wouldn't have
minded having Christ and Ovin kind of eyeballing
each other like that. But that kind of vision
of the future also suggests it was an American
future. And that had to me a kind of a touch
of cultural imperialism, which the show has been
quite good about avoiding with all of these Scandinavian
actors. Yes, because, of course, the whole terrain
that we travel through this series is very much
fantasy. It's not familiar. It's not quite Scandinavia.
It's not quite England or Saxon or anywhere in
Europe. It's very much new fantasy terrain. It
doesn't seem to... It's pretty scandalous, isn't
it? It is. I mean we have the giant causeway
literally lead them to the giant clam which I
thought was a really nice touch actually. Although
interesting that they kind of like they could
summon it and de -summon it with a blast of a
giant horn which she had to leap up a tree. But
going back to that scene with the seed Kona,
Aeol and Odin, kind of like she says, no more
looking back high one such is the cost of foresight,
because of course she's taken memory. So she's
showing him the future, but he might not remember
it now because she's taken memory, although kind
of like he cradles memory like a newborn dove.
But then she herself has an interesting twist
in that Odin does. kill her after seeing this
and Eagle gets to her just in time and she says
very dramatically this was the last thing I saw
of Eagle and then she dies but then she dramatically
transforms into what Freya suggests is a new
goddess, a mixture of azir and vanir blood. But
I'm not sure what she could be or who she might
be representing that comes next, or indeed what
she could be doing next in season two, because
she was very aloof about everything. She goes
like, I know you, eagle, but then I don't know
you because I have no recollection of my mortal
life. That was another callback to the Lord of
the Rings when Gandalf the Grey falls and he
comes back and he's Gandalf the White and he
sees the others and he's like, I know you but
he's kind of not and he's totally different now.
He has more powers. Yeah, I could go on about
all the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings. I'm
so glad I have you on because I haven't seen
the Lord of the Rings films in many, many years.
Over 10, if not 15, nearly 20, I'm that old.
So I just, as much as I love the series, I just,
oh but yes, it's interesting. Well I thought
what was going on there actually was, and I'm
not sure if there wasn't some reference to the
myth earlier on, but in the series' prophecy
in Berluspau, we have this bigger Hader who is
burnt three times in the Hall of the Gods and
comes back three times, and I thought that was
what What the said corner became at that point
that she'd been destroyed and she she was unkillable
And we don't quite know it looks as if Heather
is Because she's quite an important figure in
in Joanne Harris's work Testament of Loki is
oh gospel gospel of Loki. I think That she's
somebody who's kind of unkillable and the female
principle and one with a kind of wisdom. Of course,
in The Witch's Heart as well, that's Angrin Malka
is that unkillable figure too. So I thought it
was making play with that. But I can't really
for the life of me see why she was an Icy of
Varnir mashup without having some kind of family
connection that was clear. Well, I think that's
the one thing that I didn't like about this test.
Yes, because she had a connection to Freya. My
wife is, I've got the word, Freya, my wife was
useless. She had given her gift to gut -weaving
mortals, because of course the vulva uses the
vulva. Steve Kona uses lots of gut and intestines
in all her magic. Wolf -riding witches, which
was a nice twist to angry mode because that's
mentioned in the law. of the word past mother
to daughter. Now, of course, in this case, we
noted Kona was born a boy, but they now identify
it as a girl. So it's interesting how it still
channels along. Well, you know, that's a good
point, Caroline, about the entrails in the Valkyrie.
What was it that Irish tale where they saw in
the hut and they're using the entrails as the
as the thread and the skulls as the warp weights
and Maybe that is a callback to that. I'm sure
that I thought oh, yeah, I recognize that bit.
Yeah Yeah, I put in my notes rather unfortunate
and disappointing that they completely honestly
made Freya next to powerless when she really
isn't which is I think I hope those of you who
agree that she was quite powerful, you've already
eluded that she had half the dead, as we know
from other depictions like in Crate Hartfields
and Valkyrie, and she does, she knows cedar magic
and yet for some reason in this universe she
gives it all up in order to bring peace to her
tribe, the Vanir, and now is Odin, which again,
there's no frig, no sign of frig, and yet she's
there doing next and she's really just kind of
like a messenger between the Vanir and Loki and
that's about it. It's actually like a kind of
sleeper agent in Asgard. Possibly. Yeah, she's
the Vanir insider who's been kind of, it's a
little bit, it struck me as like when Theseus
marries or takes Hippolyta, the queen of the
Amazons and as you get at the beginning of Midsummer
Night's Dream, for example. And so you've got
this couple who are married, but the wife has
got power of her own. And she's kind of keeping
it under wraps. She's pretty equivocal about
the situation. And you can kind of see, I think,
Freyja sort of biding her time and kind of not
minding too much being Mrs. Odin. Though we never
really see enough of Odin to get a sense of what
their relationship is like. But when she starts
getting the call from the Vanir going, you know
what, we're going to come for those guys, she's
ready to open the gates there. And it also steps
in front of Thor when he's about to kill everyone
after Baldr's dramatic death, which, again, was
a twist. I didn't actually see it coming until
it actually happened because I didn't twig that
the marriage wreath that Sigrid has was mistletoe
until it was actually, oh yeah, it's just gone
through Baldr. That explains it. And because
she zooms down and actually holds Thor back,
she actually improves physical strength. And
then, of course, he breaks down in tears, and
they both Star Trek beam off. to Valhalla, as
Loki says it. Oh, that reminds me. The ships
with the Anhoja are coming down from Valhalla.
Why are they coming down from the sky? Why are
they landing like stormtroopers on the battlefield?
It made me laugh. I'm like, why are they doing
this? It's a ruin of a perfectly good ship. Well,
and also you said they didn't mention. Frigg,
but maybe the storytellers are using that idea
that Frigg and Freya are the same and they've
just separated over the years and that's why.
But they don't mention, Freya isn't in it at
all, was he? I didn't. See, there's a brief glimpse
of him down with those episode where he's got
like that He's had he's had his night with that
woman that I still can't get the name pronounced,
right? So I'm just gonna say something Roger
or whatever Yeah, I just know her as defeat lady
defeat. It's just defeat in my notes Well done,
Sasha. I cannot pronounce English at the best
of times. I'm like, where is this character come
from? Does she have any link at all to Northampton?
Because I certainly haven't come across her before.
Well, it turns out she does. Oh, really? Because
thanks to Wikipedia, which is not, of course,
the best source, but it's the only place, and
I Googled it, it was the only place I could find
her. And it apparently turns up in a temple inscription
from the third century Netherlands so she's right
down from the very south of among the Germanic
tribes there but it's a Germanic name and it's
a feminine name and the inscription says something
that can be interpreted like this is where we
worship Sandro the Sandro de Ga and then there's
a lot of debate about what the name means is
it sand? like sand and rose meaning red, so the
red sand one, or is it sand meaning derived from
the word for true? So the true what, something
else, who knows? So they've, I think, gone for
a very abstract idea. But she does have a kind
of genuine but much older name. And the same
goes for Tiwaz, of course, who was the kind of
very The Green Knight, 1921 film, kind of very
twiggy leader of the Vanir. And I thought he
was quite derivative of that film. But his name,
Tiwaz, is the older form of Tyr, and Tyr is one
of the Isir. So there's kind of ancient layer
of names that the showrunners have picked up
on to produce the characters that they need,
but they can't get from the more canonical figures.
And speaking of like ancient... callbacks. Did
anybody else notice when in the final battle
when Thor was riding in his chariot and was dragging
Tiwaz's body behind the chariot? Yeah. Oh, just
like Achilles in the, in the Iliad. Interesting
little reference. Yeah. I just remember thinking
that's overkill. Like he'd already like stomped
him to death and made his point and then was
like, right, I'll drag him around. I felt sorry
for him because his body started climbing after
the head, after the head had been cut off. The
body is not in the head but the head is gone.
It was the green knight, absolutely. I thought,
does David Lowry know that they've stolen his
green knight for this figure? It's really quite
striking. Shall we touch briefly on and Valerie
the Dwarf and of course the legend of Fafnir
and the gold and not a very cursed ring but they
used that in a very different way in placing
Fafnir's as kind of like Loki's minion of sorts
and guarding the apples which they've claimed
from the banana. Again, there's no Edun. There's
no Edun looking after the apples. I've got a
dragon instead. But that's from Greek myth, of
course. So that's the dragon that guards the
golden apples of the Hesperides. It's one of
the leaders of Hercules. He has to go and get
the golden apples from this garden of the far
western end of the world and face off this dragon
and take them. I don't think he kills the dragon,
actually. He just has to outwit it and take the
apples. There's a second call from Country Cousins,
I promise you. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm going
to have to duck out for a minute. No worries,
you go for it Caroline. I'll be back in a sec.
No worries, it's all editable. So what did you
two think of Edvary and Fafnir and all that jazz,
so to speak? Yeah, I liked that. I liked the
way it was portrayed and coming back to what
Caroline said before, they didn't... technically
kill Bafnir until Leif kind of makes a point
of you know chopping his head off and Saying
you know to say good that you know, is this what
you want? You know, I'll be what you want if
you want Yeah, it was interesting I liked how
they described the dwarves as princes and as
they're all being shape -difting friends because
of course there was the heron and Varys the fish
and of course there was the other dwarf who was
the otter of course. Otter was his name. Yes.
I should have known that really because I have
read it twice. But it was interesting that kind
of like they all weaved into kind of like Loki
stealing the treasure and it's not the curse
to ring which is what most people remember from
of course Wagner's opera and the Nibelungiad.
Well, you can never pronounce that word, either.
But the treasure that is cursed back in, of course,
they made a good point. They're like, yeah, once
you're a dragon, you can't really inherit your
father's kingdom. So kind of like Loki wins,
wins and all these points and destroys a whole
dwarven heritage. And there goes a kingdom without
an heir. It was an interesting choice, though,
to leave Odin out of that story, because Odin
was in he was a part of that story and wasn't.
wasn't there somebody else? There's like another
God who every now and then, like it's Odin's
brother or somebody, and now I can't remember,
I wish I would've looked it up. Sometimes shows
up in stories and I think he was one, there was
the three of them and then they got hungry and
that's why they killed the otter and then they,
you know, that's when they ran into their father.
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting choice
to leave Odin out of. I wonder if they just wanted
to make Odin so much more mysterious, that we
don't see him really much. He was very elusive,
I thought. I mean, there's a scene where Thor's
shouting at the top, kind of like, you've had
your turn, you've had your huntsman, which I
thought was a really interesting maybe twist
on the wild hunt kind of thing that Odin... goes
on supposedly in the autumn time. That hunt was
very, that was total Peter Jackson. When the
Nazgul are chasing the hobbits, it was, even
the music sounded like the Howard Shore score
a little bit. As soon as I saw that, I went,
oh my gosh, they're the Nazgul and they're chasing
our heroes, only they're not hobbits and they're
not helpless, but yeah. You know, I think it's
after there's a kid stood in the road as they
drive past and he just chops them down rather.
Oh, yeah Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I thought that was I was really puzzled. It's
like if Odin sends these Things because we don't
really see their faces. They were what were they
called again the bullforkers? I think I wrote
down bullforkers and I that sounds right. I've
never heard that term before You will gladden
his Ravens one Absolutely epic episode title
It wasn't it that same episode where, uh, after
they got the said Kona on their team. Yeah. they
were crossing some water and there were the women
floating in the water. They had been like shunned
in wars or something. And I thought, well, that's
like the dead marshes where the hobbits, the
fallen warriors who were in the water. That was
really interesting. I thought it is talking back
to a time before kind of like the Norse, when
there was the Norse, when it was just Germanic
tribes where women might have had been more.
punished and persecuted for all sorts of reasons,
because it looks like, oh, this is the way the
women and the preceptors who spoke out had their
tongues cut out and they were locked in. And
of course, all the undead bodies, it's very much
like the opposite version of sirens, or kind
of like, it's a very undead sirens very much,
because they were just fighting back and woo,
and then of course they all got animated when
they charged the gates. And even like the figure
at the gate appeared to be female. in some regards
she had a very female voice and I liked how they
kind of like had death speak even though it came
up in sometimes like death speak then then Loki
has to spit into her mouth for anyone to understand
but I but yes the bulwarks were I thought really
odd because surely if people who worship Odin
know these guys are Odin's guys and yet they
go around killing everyone why would anyone worship
Odin if they know that these guys can come round
and just kill everyone for whatever Odin commands.
Because they do find the boy and his parents,
like, oh, yes, we will leave you to Odin, and
he will flatten his ravens, and we'll be blessed,
and we'll be spared. I'm like, no. No, I mean,
I've always believed that kind of like even.
Marvel doesn't really get it right, that Odin
is probably more of a trickster in Loki and that
no one thinks that Odin is a trickster, but he
is. He is more deceitful than Loki at times in
a lot of the mythology. I mean, I remember reading
one of the sagas where Odin pretends to be someone
on the other side of a river and he just has
some lovely insults he's mapped with Thor for
no reason. He just likes to play around with
insults. And I'm like, why? What's the point?
What kind of father figure are you? But yes.
Did he pit? Well, didn't he have like a contest
between him and Frigg with some? uh or was it
Freya and they were they just went down and they
just started messing around with these king's
lives and they had no thought to anybody I can't
remember the story was it Freya or was it Freya
that he was doing that with or anyway that's
mentioned in your book well I'll say the book
that you're part of um Odin I'm sure that's an
introduction I read it they kind of like they
went down and they both adopted two princes that
had right Australia ship Odin says well and they're
basically oh go forth and make yourselves kings
And I think it's Briggs chosen one that does
better than Odin has to come back. It was a bet
they had. They're just playing with the humans
like they're, you know, like game pieces. Yeah.
And then there's the story of the king who wanted
like he had like two wives and he wanted to choose
the best one. So he told them they had to both
brew him beer. and the one went to Odin to help
her with her beer, and he spit in it, and the
condition was that he got what was between the
cauldron and him, and she was pregnant at the
time, so he ended up claiming her son. So yeah,
you can't trust Odin. And yet for all that scheming
mechanics that we know from having read some
of the catalog and being more familiar with it
then most, modern day folks. It's interesting
that they didn't make Odin so aloof and so remote
and like he doesn't even show any commando the
Valkyries that slowed his own sons and we don't
of course see many of them we only see Thor,
Baldr, Heimdall briefly and Hodder very briefly
at the end when he literally says oh look it's
Mistletoe and I'm like yes there's the connection
they finally put two and two together and got
Hodder and Mistletoe but he didn't throw the
dart. as it was in the laureate sea sphere in
this case. What did you all think of the way
Balder looked? I thought it was really interesting
that he was gold and glowing. I like that they
went with like a literal interpretation. Doctor
Manhattan vibes, straight off Watchmen. That's
what I was getting like he's Doctor Manhattan
but golden. That's it. He's not radioactive,
thankfully. But yeah, it was interesting. But
although he had a little part and so did Sif,
I thought there discussion, of course, kind of
like in between this battle and she was saying,
can you just please protect my husband? I know
he's an idiot and he does all these nasty things,
but he's only half my harvest, which I thought
was a really bizarre phrase of describing her
relationship with him. And she took it like,
oh, he brings the rain and I bring the wheat
kind of thing. And I'm going to find the dialogue
now because I thought that was just really, really
well. Really well written. I loved her hair.
I loved how they did her hair. Glowing. Long,
glowing. She says, I am the grain goddess. He
is the god of rain. But then Baldr says, when
your love withered, so too did the world. And
I'm like, what world are they speaking of? What
withered? What effects? consequences. What happened?
What happened? Well, that was the Ragnarök thing,
isn't it? That the world is kind of running down
because the Twilight of the Gods is coming. And
if you think about those verses, yeah, you'd
be expecting the great winter to come where nothing
will grow at all. So I think it's that sense
that the fertility of the world is under pressure.
Can I ask about the final scene? Okay, I have
to admit that I thought the battle scenes were
boring and I skipped some of it It was just it
was just like battle, you know fight fight fight
fight fight fight fight fight for a while and
it just went back and forth back and forth so
I ended up getting kind of bored. Did you see
the Sigurd skating on the shield like like this?
Oh, no. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. And how many times
was she going to be flying in the air with her
spear? Anyway, that happened a lot. The slow
-mo thing, yeah. The slow -mo with her flying.
Yeah. So I didn't understand what was happening.
I know why she's in Valhalla, but why Thor? I
didn't quite get what was going on at the end
between her and Thor. in Valhalla. Was he dead?
Like did they kill him or did they just go to
Valhalla? I think he's just basically his time
out room because of course he's just witnessed
and been heartbroken over Baldr's death remarkably.
We don't see him crying over his failed marriage
but we see him crying over Baldr. He didn't seem
to know he was there, that he like he was kind
of like aware he was there but he was kind of
like he remembered Sigrid but he didn't like
He seemed a bit like kind of dead behind the
eyes while he was in there. Right. Yeah. But
he also said something like, we've got unfinished
business. Yeah, that's the pitch for season two,
isn't it? Yeah, he says we've been tossed and
blown about by the whims of others, which I thought
was yes, that's also very true, although it does
also lay in his court because he started on it.
I was going to say. He says we both haunt the
same hearth and so begins the song of Sigrid.
And then the doors close very dramatically and
honestly, and we are left thinking boom. But
it kind of makes sense that Thor does get to
go to Valhalla nearly in every other iteration
of Valhalla. All the gods can gather there. It's
not just Odin, only in Odin's hall. I've got
a book when Thor is in Valhalla. He's just there
hanging out because it's a place to hang out.
When she's on her own with no god -killing weapon
because of course that's left down on the plains
of mortality And the slow key of course is allowed
back in because of course remarkably he does
take up weapons in this series He does actually
fight face to face before with Sigrid in partnership,
albeit Using and Barry's maces, which I thought
I wasn't sure if that was in good taster in bad
taste that he killed the dwarf And then he gets
the weather. Yeah But yes, I think I like to
have secret charge and kind of like you've made
all your moves now They know you're a traitor.
Can you at least get off your ass and come and
join in in the fray? Because it the battle scene
was long it I think it was like two episodes
maybe Pretty well. Yep. I think it started if
I the hammer because that's when there's that
Really? I'm not sure if it's a good song or it
catch. It's certainly catchy song But suits kind
of Thor's uplifted mood after having a good night
with Sandra. They go and thinking yeah, I could
do all this I can't stop this. Yes cast up this
although kind of like I did thinking kind of
like at least not playing kind of like stop hammer
time But yes, they've left it very very open
-ended and I'm not sure where they can go next
because surely they will net Loki back into asgard
odin's having an identity crisis boulder's dead
freya's Freya she may prove to be the trump card
and all this now. Um, I guess we don't know he
did kill segrid. He's got that to his benefit
He can claim, you know, I was the one who killed
us Yeah, I mean Leaf probably won't trust him
again now. No one's gonna trust him again. I
mean, they can't all kill themselves and join
it because that's not how Valhalla and Valkyries
work, it seems. That goes with the lore though.
I mean, how many times does Loki do something
that causes mischief and damage and death and
then they just let him back in to do it again
until that final time where they finally have
had enough of him. But you know, Fool me once,
shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. That's
how all those gods should feel about Loki. I
mean, at least in the stories, he's constantly
doing something and then they just, he causes
a problem, he fixes it, and then they just keep
allowing him to come back in to cause another
problem. He is the fixer. I think that's the
issue, isn't it? Because he's not, as far as
we know, responsible for Thor's hammer being
stolen in Frimscrither, but yet he's the fixer
who gets Thor to get the hammer back. And so
even though they have to put up with a certain
amount of nonsense from Loki in order to have
the fixer around, until the point where his complicity
and the death of Baldr have become such they
just can't anymore. And you have that final break
in Loki's Quarrel, Loki's Senna. I really am
not sure where they can go next, what myth they
might adapt to resolve this issue of Sigurd versus
Thor. They've used up a lot of the cannon already,
haven't they? I mean, they've killed a lot of
the veneer, even the beehive guy, which I thought
was a really odd character to throw in and kind
of have a grieving flower giantess of sorts weeping
over some dead bees. I'm really struck as to
where they got all the giant animals from when
they marched from Asgard. There's a giant fox,
a badger, a hare. There was all sorts of things
going on. I guess the only thing they have is
this new goddess that evolved from the seed Kona,
because Eagle is out by the time Sigrid gets
it. So they've got her out, but it's whether
they can get... Yeah, it's unusual. They're really
starting to go into unknown territory more than
they already have done. Sorry, that's all right.
I just am I'd not come across all four before
is all four prominent or are they? Because I
thought peter strommer's performance as him was
good, but I've not come across Dolph before is
it is our prominent figure in Norse mythology
or He's just a representative The fact that he
can become a werewolf as well is a kind of folkloric
development. You do have some werewolves in Icelandic
literature, but they probably come from the European
werewolves. They're not sort of endemic. So he's
that kind of Berserker. It's what you have in
the Northman, when Avdott is part of that kind
of cult band and he's got the wolf skin and a
bear pelt as well. So that's what he is. and
so he's kind of still alive isn't he i think
no he gets killed a lot he gets killed her though
gets killed sorry spoilers again yeah um the
safe corner is turning into something else yes
he's around yes so you've got lathe and theory
pretty well is that all that's left um is eagle
eagle's around eagle leaf this is kona slash
new goddess Hervo gets it, the wolf gets it,
and Valar is getting it. So yeah, it's pretty
much... And Tira, Tira, the archer. Oh yes, sorry,
I forgot about her, yes, she's... Yeah, the new
love interest, possibly. Wasn't Ulf Ulfer a god?
I mean, not this, not in this story. I agree,
he's just one of the representative of Ulf Hedonar,
but wasn't there a god name? I'm thinking of
Ulr, Ulr is what I'm thinking of. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah. Well, I think what's happened here is that
they obviously want season two, so they haven't
had the definitive Bragner at battle. But I think
they're going to run into a kind of Game of Thrones
problem that they're not going to have enough
storyline for another eight episodes. And just
where is it going to come from? Because they
burned through a whole lot of stuff here. Or
else they're gonna do what they did with House
of the Dragon and just drag out season two. I
think as well like you've kind of told the from
my opinion anyway, like Sigrid's kind of arc
has come full circle in her revenge story, you
know, she kind of got to the end and kind of
I don't I guess not forgive Thor but kind of
went I'm not killing and so for My revenge anymore.
I'm doing it for for other reasons upon top of
that. So I don't know you kind of follow that
revenge thread does she go back to just want
them to kill him for that reason or is she trying
to reset the world? Yeah her speech at the end
immediately made me think of gladiator I am a
father of a murdered wife I'm a father of a murdered
husband I am the weeping I am the last giant
of the open hand I am this I am that and oh yes
my name is Sigrid and I am here to kill you I
didn't write it all down, I just put she refuses
because of course Thor comes out with Sandra
or whatsoever her name is. I'm just going to
call her Sandra for short. It's just easier because
Balder tries to talk sense into Thor not killing
everyone like he did before, although Thor is
outraged at Balder for having said like you told
me I'd killed everyone and Balder goes yes you
killed all the giants, you didn't clarify you
were mainly humans as well. but kind of like
she says kind of like oh like you can walk home
with me but at least you'll walk home feeling
you'll be alive kind of thing with the whole
white shield and I've just put she refuses and
gives him a speech worthy of gladiator in defiance
and that's when Thor realizes actually she was
the one Balder prevented him from killing outright
and Himdal and Hodder rush to Balder's side and
it's Hodder that reveals the mistletoe break
Loki smirks and vanishes. So Loki. But thinking
of Loki actually only the way they might develop
this further is if they go and bring Loki more
to the fore because of course in Ragnarok Loki
goes and gets a shipload of undead from hell
made of nails and sales force and tax has gone
so maybe they've kind of like they've gone down
the route of challenging the gods head on maybe
they need to kind of like have their own army.
of sorts and not the vanilla let's go get into
the army come on go to hell give me all your
folks more go and both on a ship because that's
another way they can maybe i thought it was interesting
that they didn't really go into the prophecy
of fenrir and odin much as well, like Fenrir
was kind of, you know, it was about Jormungandr
and Hel, but Fenrir wasn't really prominent in
the story, so I don't know, maybe they explore
them. Yeah, he's only flashed twice, once when
he's a pup and in the scene when Odin gets his
great foresight at great cost, and he sees Jormungandr
kill Thor and I think he then sees a giant wolf.
Lunge towards him if not kill him or at least
just use the giant wolf literally within the
mountains But that's all we see of Fenrir although
I did find the proportion between the chains
and the giant blue eyes a bit too It was a bit
too out of proportion. It was you see it seemed
too much So yes, there was a Fenrir hiding around
and of course as hell and her army with the undead
ship I like eight episodes to me It is, I think
we've covered everything, so thank you very much
Caroline. So, yes, sir. Thank you very much,
Sasha and Kim. It's been a really interesting
discussion. I know we've covered lots and I've
still got lots more notes and I really appreciate
all your insight into the Lord of the Rings influence.
It's a new way of saying it. I know what the
Lord of the Rings then rewatch the series and
steal the parallels you have. Well, you know,
Tolkien was inspired by Norse mythology and the
sagas and stuff, so it makes sense that then...
Other people are then inspired by it. Okay, and
just kind of it's just a big circle. Yeah Well,
I really appreciate you Joining me for this episode.
Thank you, Sasha. Welcome to Valhalla I'm looking
forward to having you on the end scene to talk
out your view of Zirka TTRPG, which is the MOOC
Pog or Mock Borg? I can never get that name right
either. Maybe, but they're rules I've not come
across before, so I'm looking forward to them.
And of course, Kim, thank you for coming in.
Please do go check out her podcast. I have got
your book, your short story collection about
Odin on my shelf. a slow read, but I will get
there. And I'm looking forward to letting you
know what I thought to your story, I'm sure.
And my books are under KS Barton. I don't know
why I put him in my box. Don't worry, it's all
good. But thank you very much for joining me.
Thanks, it was fun. I appreciate your time. I
hope you all listeners and viewers can join me
next time because in March we have Mr Ian Stewart
Sharpe of the Vikingverse comics, books and TTPRG
and podcast. Of course we have lots to talk to
him about. Thank you for listening and watching
wherever you are. Thank you very much for listening
to this episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions
between my special guests and myself. Please
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