WEBVTT

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Valhalla Conversations podcast. I'm your host

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Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky,

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and I am a proud Viking geek. I fell in love

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with the history, culture and mythology of the

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Viking Age and I have been on an endless quest

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for more ever since. Join me as I discuss all

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things North with those who have been inspired

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by Viking Age history and North mythology in

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their creative works, or those who have studied

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the sagas and archaeology and review how such

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subjects are being presented to modern audiences

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today. If you like Viking stuff, you are welcome

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in my Valhalla and I hope you stay for the conversation.

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Welcome, everyone, to Valhalla Conversations

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podcast. In episode 12, this is a special group

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panel review of Twilight of the Gods, an animated

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series on Netflix, which introduces you to Thor

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and Loki in a very non -marvelous way. It's refreshingly

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bold, quite brutal and savage and full of blood

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and gall, and there is sex as well. So it's definitely

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not for 16s and definitely 18s and over, I would

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recommend. and I am delighted to say I'm joined

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by two returning guests and a new one in my humble

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mead hall of my little geeky Valhalla which is

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Valhalla Conversations. So we shall introduce

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Caroline, Sasha and Kim and Caroline if you'd

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like to introduce yourself and your wonderful

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works please. Hello I'm Caroline Larrington and

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I am a retired professor of medieval European

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literature from the University of Oxford. I've

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written quite a lot about Old Norse myth over

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the last 40 years or so and I haven't stopped

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yet. And I've become increasingly interested

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in Old Norse medievalism, what happens to Old

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Norse myth in contemporary culture and that's

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what I'm working on a lot at the moment. Brilliant,

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thank you. I'm glad you could be joining with

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us again Phil, what is your... Third? No, second

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episode with me today. It's because we've had

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previous incarnations in MCM Comic -Con, which

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is how this all wonderful started. Yes, that's

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what gave me the buzz to do this thing. So thank

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you, Caroline, for being part of that journey.

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Sasha, could you introduce yourself and your

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many wonderful works? Yeah, I'm Sasha from Slightly

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Reckless Games. We're a TTRPG company based in

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the UK. We started by making a kind of dark fantasy

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samurai inspired TTRPG and then last year we

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kickstarted a Norse mythology based TTRPG called

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Berserker. So I'm nowhere near as esteemed as

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the other two guests, but I can certainly talk

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about it from that point of view. But yeah, that's

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us. Really welcome. And of course, I will definitely

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be getting Sasha on in a future episode later

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in the year, ladies and gentlemen, and folks

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listening and watching to talk about his berserker

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TTRPD because I have thrown money at it. So I'm

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looking forward to getting all the wonderful

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goodies in the Kickstarter and then trying to

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find space on my valuable bookshelves to fit

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it on. So thank you. I'm glad you could join

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us today. And of course, Kim, who is another

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familiar face to people who've been following

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the podcast so far, could you please remind everyone

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of your wonderful works? Yeah, absolutely. I'm

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Kim Barton and I write under the name KS Barton.

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I'm the author of the Norse Family Trilogy, a

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story in which a young Viking woman and a Viking

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warrior are caught in a deadly blood feud between

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two families. I typically write historical fiction

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and fantasy set in the Viking age, and so far

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I've written six novels in which I like to explore

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themes of family, honor, and strength within

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this Norse mythology, Norse society. I also co

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-host the podcast Shield Maidens, Women of the

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Norse World. And I just really, I have an MA

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in Humanities and I just really love to learn

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about history through stories, my own stories

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and other people's stories. So I just, I love,

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I love studying stuff like this, like that what

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we're going to do just to see how everything

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turns out. Brilliant. Well, I'm glad you could

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join us again. And of course, please do go check

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out her wonderful podcast, Shield Maidens, Wind

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of the North's World, which she presents with

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Johanna Wittenberg as well. It's really fascinating.

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Lots of amazing topics and stories of amazing

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women, both mythological and historical, they

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cover. And their last episode with Nancy Marine

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Brown was amazing. I really, really enjoyed that.

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Yeah, it was great to talk to her. Twilight of

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the Gods on Netflix. Now I remember coming across

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this, ironically enough, when I was in Norway

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and I was happened to be in the lovely company

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of Caroline Lamington at my debut academic appearance,

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the symposium in Stavanger. And I remember sharing

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the trailer with Caroline and we're both like,

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what are they doing? Because it seemed very,

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it was so uplandish. We couldn't quite work out

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what they were doing. It was very sweary, wasn't

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it? It was. They hit the 18 mark. In the Hall

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of the Barnet, going, yeah, are we allowed to

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swear on this? You can, you can. I don't have

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a bleeper, but I believe adults mainly listen

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to my jokes. I was going to say, I'll probably

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swear without thinking about it. We have the

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main figures all going, oh yeah, cool, we're

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going to go and kill some fucking gods. really

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right okay this is this is not disney clearly

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marble not even marble yes um i think i know

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but actually there's a dragon as well so they're

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gonna have to kill the dragon as well as going

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to kill the gods because i think that's the line

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we're gonna get the apples isn't it we're gonna

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kill a fucking dragon as well yes i'm going to

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kill a fucking dragon says and barry the dwarf

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um I think I remember that preview trailer had

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the words kind of like say kind of like blood

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sex and Vikings or something along that line

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definitely had blood the word sex popping up

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in that preview trailer from what I remember

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and there is a lot of it there's a lot of both

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fair to say there was a lot of gore there is

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there is it thankfully all animated but it's

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it's very visual very very visual but not I mean

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I've seen more grotesque things in other mainly

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Japanese anime series which do dive deep into

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many taboo subjects. But anyway, so as I mentioned

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at the start, this presents a very what I call

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refreshingly bold and brave in many ways take

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on two of the canon that many people are familiar

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with which is of course Thor and Loki. And so

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we'll start off with the big guy in the room

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with a hammer which is Thor. Who would like to

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share their thoughts on his depiction, portrayal

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and story arc through the series? I'll start.

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So I didn't have any issue with Thor being the

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bad guy. That retelling, because I feel like

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this is mythology and these are stories and stories

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evolve and change and different people see things

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in different ways. I didn't have an issue with

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that. But I did, it felt like it didn't feel

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like it. He was so overpowered in the first episode

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and then later that was gone. Like, and that

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kind of bugged me. I had an issue with that because

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in that first episode, he was just like, I don't

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know, just blowing the giants up with his lightning.

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And then later on when he was fighting with Sigrid

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one -on -one. He didn't do any of that kind of

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stuff or any of the subsequent fights with Sigrid

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and her crew. It felt like he just lost a lot

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of his power. And I had a little bit of an issue

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with that. Maybe he was holding back a bit. That's

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not the impression I've had. Yeah, that he's

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got. I don't know what we're going to do about

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spoilers here. Sorry, yes. There will be spoilers

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because there's only eight episodes and it's

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only season one. We don't know yet, or at least

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I don't know yet, if there will be a season two,

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especially with the way they ended season one,

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which we'll get to. So yes, sorry. Spoiler warning.

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Spoiler warning. I apologize. Spoiler warning.

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Sorry. Carry on, Caroline. Yeah. Well, I think

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what you could see was that Secret, at least,

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even if some of the other characters didn't have

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plot armor. And so you couldn't have a situation

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where Thor was just going to... blow her up with

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some lightning because right yeah end of story

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and so there was a kind of part of the mechanism

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for making it possible to have season two was

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taking Thor out of what we were kind of led to

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believe was the final battle was going to be

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Ragnarok and putting him in Valhalla Where the

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turn up later on so it seemed as if there was

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some other power that was and I think That Kim's

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absolutely right here. There's some other power.

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Is it the faiths? Is it the norms? Something

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holding him back from just unleashing all that

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crazy stuff that we saw in episode one Yeah,

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I also got the impression as well. Like if you'd

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believe what kind of Balder says to sif about

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him kind of wanting to be more and to die that

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maybe he's kind of Holding back for that reason

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as well as in a case of you know Someone's actually

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challenging him on a kind of physical level that

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he isn't used to but from a game Development

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point of view that as you say that first episode

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kind of changed my design of Thor in our game

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it was like Was like now we asked to feel kind

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of that powerful Which is a hard line to toe

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in a game because it's like you don't want them

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to be undefeatable as like You know as a an antagonist

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for the players and But I gave him some kind

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of more abilities that mirrored that first episode

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so he had something really deals like damage

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on on the same kind of scale of like blowing

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people up and What I thought was really interesting

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about that first episode was the way that it

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positioned you in the point of view of the Giants.

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Yes. It seemed to be a big lumbering, actually

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quite a jolly bunch of people, secretive relatives,

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and all got together going to have a nice wedding

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and so on. And then Thor comes in to flatten

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everybody for no particularly good reason except

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That's what Thor does mythologically if he kills

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giants. And it made me think we have some myths

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in which Thor kills the giants because they deserve

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it, because they've done something antagonistic

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to the gods. But you've also got this kind of

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throwaway line, in a sense, in the myth. So where's

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Thor? Oh, he's off in the East killing giants.

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That's what he does. and you don't see that close

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up and you certainly don't see it from the Giants

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perspective. But it reminded me in a way a bit

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of Genevieve Gornicek's The Witch's Heart which

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by the time you get to the end of that you are

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totally rooting for Giants because you've had

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enough of the gods and their corrupt way and

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their annoying little habits. And Joanne Harris

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already started that I think with the Gospel

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of Loki. changing the way in which the the ice

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here were previously thought of as troubled maybe

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um with some oath breaking in their history but

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you know basically the good guys and from the

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get -go with episode one you think the ice here

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are not the good guys here and i understand that

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that's something that may come out of god of

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war that positioning of the ice here as an oppressive

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order that really needs to be overthrown. So

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I was really taken aback by this, but then I

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thought, OK, that seems to be what the pedigree

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is. I must admit, for me personally, yes, Thor

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was grotesquely. powerful, dominating, and just

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outright cruel, basically. They don't even really

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fight the giants, he just used his hammer like

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a gun and just zapped them all to death, which

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was almost a bit lazy, really. He didn't even

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hit them with the head, which is what he's canonically

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known to do. But it also made me think that they've

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taken the lay of Thrym. set up and completely

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twisted it so instead of because of course Thor

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and Val had come looking for Loki we never told

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or hinted at what Loki's done to make Thor hunt

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him down like this and I'm thinking maybe they're

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taking the end like just before Loki is bound

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when he is running away from Thor at all opportunities

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maybe that's alluded to but but yes that made

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me think because of course there is a giant wedding

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in that one and Loki and Thor are part of that

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canonical legend where they go in disguise, Thor

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in a wedding dress, Loki shape -fifting into

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a beautiful bridesmaid and eventually he just

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gets hammered out and kill everyone unfortunately.

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So I thought that was maybe a really interesting

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twist on that but as you say it does put you

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brilliantly at the opposite end of seeing Thor

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not as the good god, the guy that gives us rain

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and helps the crops grow and gives us wonderful

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lightning shows in the sky but as the god of

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violence that he often exerts in the legends

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and the Eddas and so on. But of course we meet

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Thor quite halfway through the episode after

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meeting Sigrid who is one of the protagonists.

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She is a Shieldmaiden, but of half -giant heritage.

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We also meet her partner, King2B Leaf, who is

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of the Balsong family, which I thought, ooh,

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what are they doing with the Balsongs? Where

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is that going? And again, after rewatching it

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a second time, there isn't much of the canon

00:14:56.379 --> 00:14:58.320
of the Balsong. It just seems to be a nice name

00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:02.799
to give credit to it all. She herself has another

00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:04.840
shieldmaiden friend called Herbor. Now Herbor

00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.019
was another shieldmaiden taken from Legend, Many

00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:10.039
the Cursed Sword of Tiefing, which I actually

00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:13.919
had the good position of seeing performed dramatically

00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.080
at the Orbit Biking Festival only last week,

00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.080
which was amazing. And there's so many other

00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:23.139
characters, but when Sigrid and Leif go to meet

00:15:23.139 --> 00:15:26.610
the giant kind, we learn from Sigrid's father

00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:30.110
that they have had a past quabble or a war with

00:15:30.110 --> 00:15:33.289
the gods and they're spitsworn and I love the

00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:35.230
dialogue they've got spitsworn they've got kennings

00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:39.029
nearly everything in this series um like an oath

00:15:39.029 --> 00:15:41.230
and it takes kind of like leaf to give them the

00:15:41.230 --> 00:15:43.669
valsal horde to persuade them actually yeah we'll

00:15:43.669 --> 00:15:45.570
make an oath with you so we don't go and kill

00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:48.490
you see me you now like my daughter kind of kind

00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:53.070
of thing um But Loki does emerge by the end of

00:15:53.070 --> 00:15:55.950
season one. He introduces himself in quite dramatic

00:15:55.950 --> 00:15:58.950
style down in his daughter's kingdom of Hel.

00:15:59.570 --> 00:16:03.389
And Hel herself has horns. Now this is actually

00:16:03.389 --> 00:16:05.409
going on to another point. Haven't we watched

00:16:05.409 --> 00:16:07.960
it a second time? I was surprised to actually

00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.340
see that there are horned helmets in this series.

00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.120
I thought, oh, we have a series that horns, but

00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.539
no, in the battle that Sigrid and Leif meet at,

00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:19.179
the Bad Army has horned helmets. But then also

00:16:19.179 --> 00:16:20.759
near the end of the series where they're all

00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.820
fighting in front of Valhalla, all Valhalla soldiers

00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:29.399
have horned helmets. Again, it's the motif that

00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.059
we can't escape from, but is recognizably biking,

00:16:32.179 --> 00:16:35.519
so we shall let it lie. But yes, so that was

00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.820
all. As you say about him being overpowering

00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:43.440
and not being as powerful by the end, and of

00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.600
course, Sasha, you mentioned about Sifl and Baldr's

00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.960
conversation about maybe he has an issue with

00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:49.899
being immortality, maybe he's tired of it, maybe

00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:51.899
he just wants putting out into pasture and being

00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:56.120
shot, as my father would say, kind of thing.

00:16:56.500 --> 00:16:59.480
I think that was a real nice touch that they

00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.259
actually kind of explored beneath his big masculinity

00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:07.140
issues. She's always kind of like demeaning siff

00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:11.099
about her sexual ability and going off with another

00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:13.819
woman slash goddess who I've got no idea where

00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:16.299
she's come from at all and I will ask you all

00:17:16.299 --> 00:17:19.259
about that in a minute. But I thought that was

00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:23.539
a real nice issue because is it nice to be a

00:17:23.539 --> 00:17:25.559
god? Is it nice to be divine and to live forever

00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.660
and have all this power but then see anything?

00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:34.440
Do you have any more thoughts about those issues

00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.339
that were explored through Thor and his possible

00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:41.000
vulnerabilities underneath it all that drive

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.200
this aggression, this rage, this violence? That

00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.559
conversation, I'd forgotten about that conversation,

00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:51.680
but it reminded me, and I'll say this about the

00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.960
entire show, it was very, very much inspired

00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:01.470
by the Lord of the Rings movies. There were so

00:18:01.470 --> 00:18:06.890
many scenes, some of the music, certain things

00:18:06.890 --> 00:18:10.829
that were very, I just kept going, hmm, that

00:18:10.829 --> 00:18:12.930
was inspired by the Peter Jackson movies. That

00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:14.910
was inspired by the Peter Jackson movies, just

00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:17.750
the way it was filmed. But that conversation

00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:21.829
that they had also reminded me of Tolkien. the

00:18:21.829 --> 00:18:25.589
way that his elves can become world weary, that

00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:28.470
they get tired of being immortal, and they'll

00:18:28.470 --> 00:18:36.170
sometimes just go off to die because it's just

00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.109
exhausting to be immortal. And I don't remember

00:18:39.109 --> 00:18:41.529
if it was Elrond in the books or who it was.

00:18:41.630 --> 00:18:43.250
It's been a while since I've actually read the

00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:47.410
books, but one of the elves talked about the

00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:51.779
gift. of mortality that mortal men have, that

00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:54.680
it's a gift to be mortal because then you can

00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.420
like burn brightly and rather than this kind

00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:00.539
of slow diminishing that happens to the elves.

00:19:00.819 --> 00:19:04.160
So that conversation between Sif and Baldr reminded

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:09.960
me very much of Tolkien's beliefs about immortality.

00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:14.279
Yeah, I think it's Elrond that tells Arwen when

00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:16.400
he's angry because she wants to be mortal, I

00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.579
think. Well, I know she's she wants to marry

00:19:19.579 --> 00:19:22.220
Aragorn doesn't she he's explaining that he's

00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:26.740
more so you'll outlive them all But I thought

00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:30.299
it was interesting with them Come back to the

00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:34.779
the the Thor and his kind of Balder saying that

00:19:34.779 --> 00:19:38.460
he you know and these morals that it kind of

00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.220
spoke about that and they had that scene but

00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:43.519
then I think it was like either the episode or

00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:45.359
maybe two episodes prior where he's just kind

00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.299
of wrestling with his son and his son kind of

00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:50.259
pushes him back while he's distracted and he

00:19:50.259 --> 00:19:54.299
you know lashes out bad parenting there, just

00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:56.539
great bad parenting and see that he only has

00:19:56.539 --> 00:19:59.680
one son because of course in the law he has twins

00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.660
does he not Caroline? not necessarily twins but

00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:08.140
certainly he's got sons That moment where it's

00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:11.200
clear that his son, small as he is, is stronger

00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.319
than his father, is something that we find in

00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.660
Skál Skápa Mál in one of the bits of the Prose

00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:22.619
Edda. Thor has managed to topple the giant Hrungnir,

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:25.920
who's huge and has his head made of stone, which

00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.700
makes him extra heavy, I guess. And Hrungnir

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:33.599
falls over Thor, and Thor is trapped under his

00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.359
leg. And so he's kind of lying there, I imagine,

00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.779
kind of like a beetle. And his son, Magni, comes

00:20:41.779 --> 00:20:44.799
along and lifts the leg up and goes, there you

00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.079
are, Dad. And Thor gets up and kind of, and it's

00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.980
one of those moments where you can see how the

00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:54.480
next generation is beginning to come into its

00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.460
own. We know why Thor isn't going to be there

00:20:58.460 --> 00:21:00.720
after Ragnarök because of the world serpent.

00:21:01.870 --> 00:21:05.369
Magni and Modi, his two sons are. And so you

00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:09.630
can see that that kind of, that power is still

00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:13.490
vested, maybe more, maybe a couple of more moral

00:21:13.490 --> 00:21:17.369
kids, who knows. But it continues when the world

00:21:17.369 --> 00:21:22.029
is renewed again. Very interesting to learn that

00:21:22.029 --> 00:21:27.670
I did not know about that one. Okay, so switching

00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:30.329
from Thor to Loki then. who of course reveals

00:21:30.329 --> 00:21:32.950
himself at the end of episode one and declares

00:21:32.950 --> 00:21:35.630
to Sigrid after dragging her through corpse blood

00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:37.549
through the earth all the way to hell. What a

00:21:37.549 --> 00:21:40.549
lovely way to go. Even without a clothes, I thought

00:21:40.549 --> 00:21:42.769
you couldn't put a last not keep a dress on but

00:21:42.769 --> 00:21:45.970
no. She says kind of like oh good thing you get

00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:48.130
to taste for blood because I want to give you

00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:51.630
thors and of course he does introduce himself

00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:54.869
as Loki, Laufi's son and she actually challenges

00:21:54.869 --> 00:21:56.890
him I believe Sigrid challenges him like kind

00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:59.740
of like if you're of King of Giants, why were

00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:01.920
you not there to stop Thor slaughtering my entire

00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.579
family on my wedding day? Which is interesting.

00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:10.759
So Loki, he is definitely, he's got the smooth

00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.519
charisma, I guess you could say that's recognisable.

00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:16.259
It is a firm fixture that a lot of interpretations

00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:21.039
have presented Loki as having. But he also has,

00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:25.299
seems to have, not just his shape shifting ability,

00:22:27.580 --> 00:22:31.839
but also an ulterior motive that isn't just about

00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.000
causing mayhem and problems for the gods and

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:35.660
then having to fix the problems that he then

00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:38.000
makes because it does emerge as the episodes

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.339
reveal especially one particular episode which

00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:43.039
I absolutely loved which was the scapegoat god

00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.640
that he's doing it all in order to protect his

00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.099
children which I think is a wonderful twist to

00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:52.849
the Loki characteristic of not just wanting to

00:22:52.849 --> 00:22:54.490
burn the world because he hates what the gods

00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:56.490
have done to his children, but trying to protect

00:22:56.490 --> 00:22:58.710
them, regardless of what the gods are trying

00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:03.829
to do. Was that the episode at the beginning

00:23:03.829 --> 00:23:10.349
where Angerboda gives birth to Hel and Thor shows

00:23:10.349 --> 00:23:13.829
up to get rid of him and he explains what's going

00:23:13.829 --> 00:23:17.099
to happen to all three? That's in the scapegoat,

00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:19.579
yeah, that's where him and Leif are stuck in

00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:23.420
Honia's head. That's right. Oh, right, OK. And

00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:26.099
they're just getting flashbacks of memories and

00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:28.980
their regret and the woe that weighs them all

00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:30.940
down and is meant to make them basically never

00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:34.119
leave and trapped in that insane part of a magical

00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:38.559
universe, I suppose. But yes, that was an interesting

00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.240
take, I thought, especially kind of like having

00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.740
Hale not just be half linear or vertically dead

00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:48.500
and alive, but literally shape shift from being

00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:52.740
dead to alive, albeit having horns, which I will

00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:58.539
try not to keep picking on. But I quite liked

00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:03.640
that. And of course, Jormungandr is typically

00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.759
a son in the law and the legends, but it's depicted

00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.299
as a female. She can shape shift from either

00:24:10.299 --> 00:24:13.380
the giant snake in the sea or being a scaled

00:24:13.579 --> 00:24:17.599
figure with short hair and she decides to get

00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:20.839
in bed with Thor basically by causing a shipwreck

00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:24.019
which was an interesting way of luring him as

00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:28.759
it emerged through later episodes. How and why

00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:31.339
they do that I'm not entirely sure even after

00:24:31.339 --> 00:24:33.599
a second re -watching it seems to be hinted that

00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.359
it's in order to keep them alive even though

00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:39.319
Loki knows well even if you do go to bed with

00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.940
Thor he's still gonna kill the evil though you

00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:44.759
will kill him or something along those lines

00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.000
well it's a kind of love and death thing isn't

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.839
it because there's that moment in um in heme

00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:53.640
square though where oh no actually it's in one

00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.220
of the scalded verses i think where thor goes

00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:58.279
out on the fishing expedition with the giant

00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:02.680
hemeer and he he hauls up the world serpent and

00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:04.420
there's this moment where they're looking at

00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:12.000
each other and you can see there how The there's

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.740
this kind of attraction that our fates are bound

00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:18.960
together and that can end up as I will kill you

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:23.460
or and you will kill me or It can end up as we

00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:26.220
will have sex together at some point That's not

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:29.099
now obviously in the middle of this rowing boat

00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:32.319
in the ocean But I thought that was that was

00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.380
quite clever to to make that bond Between them

00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:39.839
that fated bomb not just yeah, you're my doom

00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.140
Sooner or later, we're going to have to face

00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:46.900
it that when actual Ragnarök actually comes.

00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:50.519
But to get that going before. And the idea that

00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:54.279
Loki's own shape shifting goes down into the

00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.240
children as well is really clever. Actually,

00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.759
I don't remember if Fenrir's shape shifts. No,

00:25:59.859 --> 00:26:02.380
he was a pot. And then he's just a giant pair

00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:05.119
of big blue eyes in the gloom. That's all we

00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.529
see in his giant form. and only a brief glimpse

00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:12.210
of him as a giant wolf with Odin and he is a

00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:15.390
whole other complex character or not depending

00:26:15.390 --> 00:26:17.210
on how deep you look into him because he actually

00:26:17.210 --> 00:26:20.589
had a very brief appearance in this whole saga

00:26:20.589 --> 00:26:22.890
events because it's pretty much like just a triangle

00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:25.670
of warfare and conflicts between Sigrid, Loki

00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:28.630
and Thor and how many times it can go around.

00:26:29.569 --> 00:26:32.390
But what else do you guys think about Loki's

00:26:32.390 --> 00:26:36.279
character and story arc? Well, he seemed to me

00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.640
to be there were you could see Tom Hiddleston

00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:45.559
kind of hovering behind him a bit and Patterson

00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.240
Joseph who voices him has got it's not the same

00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.019
voice as Hiddleston, but he's got that kind of

00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:56.000
smooth voice that that Hiddleston can do when

00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.759
he's not wisecracking he can do smooth very nicely,

00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:04.130
I think and I thought Loki was doing exactly

00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:07.390
what I expected him to do until exactly that

00:27:07.390 --> 00:27:12.470
scapegoat god where for me that was kind of where

00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:17.690
the show stopped being quite so here's a game

00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:22.190
-derived plot Here's a big set piece battle,

00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:25.109
here's another one, here's another one, here's

00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:27.910
some special effects, here's some more sex, here's

00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:30.829
people doing weird things to their bodies. And

00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:32.890
it's where it started really getting psychological,

00:27:33.170 --> 00:27:37.970
obviously in Hynier's head. You began to, you

00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:41.049
got a lot of important information about backstory

00:27:41.049 --> 00:27:47.880
and you got Leif suddenly feeling guilt and something

00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.200
a bit like remorse about his Viking career. Yes

00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:54.539
I thought that was another really interesting

00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:58.099
take about whether any any Viking actually came

00:27:58.099 --> 00:28:00.400
back from a raid and regretted killing loads

00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.380
of families and children and then taking them

00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:06.059
into slavery thought because as much as humanity

00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:10.519
has an inept ability for cruelty as well as creativity

00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:12.880
and all the good things we can do we have this

00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.480
cruel streak but can anyone really be one way

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.630
or the other? kind of like yeah it was a really

00:28:19.630 --> 00:28:23.869
interesting take I quite liked but yes the scapegoat

00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:27.150
god I thought was really really good and especially

00:28:27.150 --> 00:28:29.150
when kind of like the leaf says but it's all

00:28:29.150 --> 00:28:31.390
you Loki you do all these things and the king

00:28:31.390 --> 00:28:35.589
goes no man make man made me what I am for everything

00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:38.950
was it every boy who made didn't make his bed

00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:41.849
that morning or something something really benign

00:28:41.849 --> 00:28:46.519
like that I've got loads of notes of quats Loads

00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:49.880
of quotes, where is it? While you're looking

00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:53.720
for that, I love the visual of Loki. I love his

00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.880
hair and the way they designed his face and everything.

00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:06.099
I really liked the visuals of him. Yeah. Yeah,

00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:09.779
I'm glad I'm glad. I thought he was really refreshingly

00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.519
well done. He looked distinctly different as

00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.980
well as Freya. did, because she was a Vanir,

00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:17.960
so they really showed the differences that they

00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:22.539
weren't just all homogeneously one type of person,

00:29:22.579 --> 00:29:25.019
type of race, their differences really shone

00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:28.319
through. Sticking with the Loki thing, when Loki

00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.819
meets Freya, and I really like that it was her

00:29:30.819 --> 00:29:33.519
big cat that caught him as a salamander and carried

00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.579
him all the way to her hall, she actually asks

00:29:37.579 --> 00:29:40.380
him kind of like, why do you use your mother's

00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:43.559
name? And I can't remember which episode it was

00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.950
now. And I believe it says, he says, it's because

00:29:47.950 --> 00:29:51.349
my mum didn't hit me, but my father did, or something

00:29:51.349 --> 00:29:55.690
along those lines. But that's in the mythology,

00:29:55.710 --> 00:29:58.490
right, that he goes by Loki Laufey. He does,

00:29:58.589 --> 00:30:01.430
but I really like that that's referenced. I really

00:30:01.430 --> 00:30:03.750
like that, because not many people realise that.

00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:06.990
They may know kind of like, oh, yes, his father

00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:09.609
was a giant, but many people forget that he did

00:30:09.609 --> 00:30:15.319
have a mother on the Azir tribe. clam side kind

00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:17.960
of thing. And also in the Marvell universe his

00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:24.160
father is called Lofey and so you hear the name

00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.400
and you think oh yeah that's his dad if you don't

00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:29.539
know enough Scandinavian to know that's a feminine

00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:32.619
name so it marked him out as being different

00:30:32.619 --> 00:30:34.599
because everybody else is somebody somebody's

00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:40.359
son except for Loki who is just identifying down

00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.509
this maternal line. I found the quote. Freya

00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:46.910
says, why do you wear your mother's name? Again,

00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:49.890
the dialogue. I just love it. I know it sounds

00:30:49.890 --> 00:30:52.130
very kind of Lord of the Rings -esque. It's full

00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:54.009
of different words that you wouldn't really put

00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:56.670
in today's vernacular. But I just love the way

00:30:56.670 --> 00:30:59.410
it sounded. And he says, my father hit me. My

00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:01.789
mother did not. and then he makes everything

00:31:01.789 --> 00:31:04.089
really weird by asking if contracts are made

00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:06.150
in mother's milk and Fred goes yes of course

00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:08.309
they are and kind of like she nudges her bosom

00:31:08.309 --> 00:31:10.130
rather effectively and i'm like really you're

00:31:10.130 --> 00:31:13.549
drinking that i'm like okay okay this is it's

00:31:13.549 --> 00:31:18.430
got weird um but yes um in terms of scapegoat

00:31:18.430 --> 00:31:20.789
god leaf says but you're supposed to be the root

00:31:20.789 --> 00:31:23.509
of all that's wicked and you cannot accept yourself

00:31:23.509 --> 00:31:26.069
and then look he goes i am only what men made

00:31:26.069 --> 00:31:29.950
me i am the beast of unburning And I only exist

00:31:29.950 --> 00:31:33.589
so men may blame me. I might be a scapegoat god,

00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:35.789
which I thought is, yeah, that's an interesting

00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:39.670
way. I remember growing up when we used to get

00:31:39.670 --> 00:31:42.029
into trouble. My mum would go, oh, so Mr. Nobody

00:31:42.029 --> 00:31:44.789
did it, did he? Did Mr. Nobody not tidy up the

00:31:44.789 --> 00:31:49.950
room? That immediately connected to that episode

00:31:49.950 --> 00:31:53.619
of my childhood. again, blaming something that

00:31:53.619 --> 00:31:57.420
is beyond our control. And yeah, that is, in

00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:00.660
effect, Loki. It's like people blame him for

00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:04.359
all sorts. But interesting enough, after this

00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.839
great outpouring and opening up of his raw soul,

00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:09.579
quite literally to leave for the Nihonia's head,

00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.700
when they do come out, when they escape with

00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:15.559
the help of Sigrid and lots of others, he completely

00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.579
changes tack in front of everyone. He... announces

00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:21.980
kind of like he, when Sigrid and Leif sing, oh

00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:25.000
yes, the video gods, we've given you apples,

00:32:25.140 --> 00:32:27.619
we're sorry they nearly killed you. That's a

00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:29.240
whole other episode we'll get to, dear viewers

00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:32.160
and listeners. Can you please join us in toppling

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.119
the Isaiah? But then he goes, oh, but you would

00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.640
give away my glory. And then he says, I am but

00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.579
a flint, the all -father strikes. I am fire and

00:32:40.579 --> 00:32:44.240
flame. I am Loki, the loathsome and the blamed.

00:32:44.569 --> 00:32:46.970
with a sly nod to Leif and then he vanishes in

00:32:46.970 --> 00:32:51.069
a puff of magical smoke very dramatically and

00:32:51.069 --> 00:32:55.069
show him and I thought yes he is he's back to

00:32:55.069 --> 00:32:58.230
his kind of like his um persona that he likes

00:32:58.230 --> 00:33:00.970
to present to everyone so that moment of weakness

00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:04.190
that is now just between him and Leif I don't

00:33:04.190 --> 00:33:06.029
think he really shows any weaknesses towards

00:33:06.029 --> 00:33:09.809
Sigrid in any particular aspect but yes I really

00:33:09.809 --> 00:33:14.730
liked how it emerged And even on the battlefield

00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:16.730
at the end, actually, when Sigrid and Leif are

00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:20.390
talking after just about evading, just about

00:33:20.390 --> 00:33:23.450
evading, a big explosion that Thor calls by hitting

00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:25.150
the ground really hard with his hammer and sending

00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:27.490
literally everyone flying in the air and obliterating

00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:30.690
everything. Kind of like he goes, why are you

00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:32.130
doing this? Why are you doing this? And then

00:33:32.130 --> 00:33:34.769
she realizes, oh, it's to protect your family.

00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.490
At least your family are alive. I'm trying to

00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:40.789
fight for dead family kind of thing And of course

00:33:40.789 --> 00:33:42.589
the brilliant line that I think was used a lot

00:33:42.589 --> 00:33:45.549
in the trailers in promotion for this was kind

00:33:45.549 --> 00:33:49.309
of like a god killing a god That's that's that

00:33:49.309 --> 00:33:52.150
comes and goes but a mortal killing a god. That's

00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:56.190
enough to remake the world and I just Absolutely.

00:33:56.309 --> 00:33:59.630
Yes, it's it's challenging the status quo from

00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:02.269
top to bottom actually having the bottom come

00:34:02.269 --> 00:34:06.140
up and literally pop all the top off right figuratively

00:34:06.140 --> 00:34:09.360
in a brilliant way. I will stop gattering and

00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.719
let you guys have some of the floor. Any other

00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.880
thoughts on Loki? I thought that episode did

00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.579
a good job of kind of humanizing him a little

00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:22.699
bit because I think it's quite easy. I think,

00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.159
I don't know how manipulative he'd been up to

00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:29.280
that point but it seemed to, that seemed to humanize

00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.119
him a little bit but I did appreciate that kind

00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.579
of, I think it might have been the episode after

00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:38.409
that, that he kind of Bursts on the bar his head

00:34:38.409 --> 00:34:43.630
kind of which seemed unnecessarily brutal I don't

00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:45.570
know if that was kind of more of a reaction to

00:34:45.570 --> 00:34:48.289
You know, I'd kind of shown himself a little

00:34:48.289 --> 00:34:50.190
bit and then that was in just going right now.

00:34:50.190 --> 00:34:55.130
I'm still you know, still Loki Yeah, that's a

00:34:55.130 --> 00:34:57.510
good point that was a surprise death I did not

00:34:57.510 --> 00:35:02.380
see coming But then I guess that's very much

00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:05.760
Loki in a way tying up all the loose ends. Because

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.739
before that, they get into that citadel in Asgard,

00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:13.320
we have that episode of Now Here Of, where they

00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.159
all have a brilliant storytelling episode. Yeah,

00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.420
a typical eve of battle. It reminded me of the

00:35:20.420 --> 00:35:22.480
night before the Battle of Winterfell in Game

00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.699
of Thrones, which itself is a bit like... I thought

00:35:27.699 --> 00:35:30.320
very much based on Shakespeare's Henry V, and

00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:32.460
it was the eve of Agincourt, where everybody,

00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:34.820
you go around and everybody's getting nerfed

00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:37.519
up for battle, but they're trying to distract

00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.880
themselves and they're talking about their lives.

00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:42.320
I thought that was really well done. It had some

00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:45.679
great versions of different myths being retold,

00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.639
as well as teaching you quite a lot about people's

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:52.079
history. Siegfried tells her story, for example,

00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.690
and we hear all about Eil, the poet. and slave

00:35:57.690 --> 00:36:01.010
and how he came to be enslaved. He's an interesting

00:36:01.010 --> 00:36:03.670
character. I think it would be nice to talk about

00:36:03.670 --> 00:36:08.010
for a moment if we get time. Oh, yes, please

00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:12.130
do. I guess just quickly highlight that particular

00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:14.090
episode because that's when we first really get

00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:18.210
a visual of Odin, who, of course, I immediately

00:36:18.210 --> 00:36:20.409
called him out the moment he walks on into the

00:36:20.409 --> 00:36:21.929
encampment and everyone's saying, storyteller,

00:36:21.949 --> 00:36:24.980
storyteller, tell us the story. a cloak, one

00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:27.380
eye, hasn't got the hat like Gandalf, but I mean,

00:36:27.500 --> 00:36:29.659
yes, it's just so visibly Odin. Like, how do

00:36:29.659 --> 00:36:32.960
these people not know it's Odin? How? And of

00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.780
course he tells this tale of the two giants and

00:36:35.780 --> 00:36:37.619
the enchanted millstone and why they're salt

00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:41.380
in the sea. And it's like, okay, that's an interesting

00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:43.539
giant tale. And then everyone else has a story.

00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:48.320
So the giants tell about Loki enchanting. a horse

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.840
as a horse to make slipnear and that whole thing

00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.340
and there's a great course ongoing pun on kind

00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:56.480
of like enter Loki and Loki enters and then entering

00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:58.940
Loki in a very sexual way because of course he

00:36:58.940 --> 00:37:03.440
becomes a mare to have sex with a stallion and

00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.659
that kind of thing. But when Odin reveals himself

00:37:07.659 --> 00:37:10.019
at the end of that episode, when Sigrid's thinking

00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:13.079
about what if this happens, what if this doesn't,

00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:15.639
and he remarkably gives her back the spear that

00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:17.320
he has. I'm like, why don't you just walk off

00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.119
with the spear now, Odin, it'll solve so many

00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:23.199
problems. He kind of reminds her that although

00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.260
those giant girls did get their freedom, they

00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.320
also died, which I think was a really clever

00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:29.400
way of saying, just so you know, if you come

00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:36.030
up against me, you might die. But yes. But yes,

00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:38.329
speaking of stories, as you mentioned Caroline,

00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:41.530
Eagle the Poet is a storyteller throughout a

00:37:41.530 --> 00:37:44.690
lot of these episodes and he leaves after regaining

00:37:44.690 --> 00:37:47.130
his freedom and thus his own story and he comes

00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:50.510
back after telling the story of Sigrid's attempt

00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:53.909
to topple the gods. So please do share what your

00:37:53.909 --> 00:37:58.760
thoughts are on Eagle the Poet. He's obviously,

00:37:58.940 --> 00:38:01.679
his name is taken from the poet A. L. Scattlegrim,

00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:05.400
one of the greatest poets in Old Norse literature.

00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:10.019
And so I'm quite perked up when he introduced

00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:12.619
himself. I thought, well, how A -like is he going

00:38:12.619 --> 00:38:15.880
to be? Is he going to pluck people's eyes out

00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.039
and get very drunk and vomit in their faces?

00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:21.179
All the stuff that the actual Icelandic figure

00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:24.719
does. And he doesn't really, he's not as brutal

00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.860
as that, partly, of course, because he's got

00:38:26.860 --> 00:38:32.349
this slave status and partly because he's one

00:38:32.349 --> 00:38:37.369
of those I don't say tick boxes but the the show

00:38:37.369 --> 00:38:40.130
is really interested in diversity when you gather

00:38:40.130 --> 00:38:43.610
together all of the the band of Avengers you've

00:38:43.610 --> 00:38:46.489
got women for the dwarf you've got the gay guy

00:38:46.489 --> 00:38:52.349
you've got The leader is a woman and you've got

00:38:52.349 --> 00:38:54.909
the the safe corners where you got older women

00:38:54.909 --> 00:39:00.519
thought was interesting So Eid tells about how

00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:07.139
he became enslaved by Leif, how he was kind of

00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.340
cast out from the community because he was gay

00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:13.820
and then yet killed and taken off by Leif. But

00:39:13.820 --> 00:39:17.099
also one of the things that's quite striking

00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:20.460
about him, I think, is that he's the kind of

00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:23.119
comedy person. He's the one with the wisecracks.

00:39:24.190 --> 00:39:28.110
buries up. And it struck me that he had quite

00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:32.690
a lot of the poet in The Witcher, Dandelion.

00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:39.949
And that, I think, has something to do as well

00:39:39.949 --> 00:39:44.070
with the depiction of Chaucer going back to A

00:39:44.070 --> 00:39:48.869
Knight's Tale. It's the poet as a kind of commentator.

00:39:49.050 --> 00:39:51.429
He doesn't fight particularly, but he's just

00:39:51.429 --> 00:39:53.969
kind of, he's there with a quip and he's the

00:39:53.969 --> 00:39:56.849
one who's going to tell the story later too.

00:39:57.329 --> 00:39:59.929
And I thought he was really quite nicely done

00:39:59.929 --> 00:40:04.730
because he has got, he can produce verse in a

00:40:04.730 --> 00:40:09.949
fairly plausible way. Yeah, he did kind of echo

00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.789
a very kind of like very modern, normal, relatable.

00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:15.340
experiencing a voice of things, especially like

00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:17.639
why are we seeing this vulva, this wicked witch

00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:19.519
that supposedly eats her and children of a Freya,

00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.099
why are we going up against the gods? He asked

00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:23.639
the very kind of like most obvious questions

00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:25.780
that we as audience may be wondering, like why

00:40:25.780 --> 00:40:28.119
are they doing all these dangerous crazy things?

00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:32.079
But I also liked that he had a little bit of

00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:34.139
cedar magic in him and that he kind of carved

00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:36.559
runes and then cast a little bit of a magic spell

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:40.269
because of course cedar is a very Feminine led

00:40:40.269 --> 00:40:43.510
or managed magic and of course that then introduced

00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:46.150
to the seed Kona, which is a vulva and everyone

00:40:46.150 --> 00:40:50.369
Knows them as a hair, but then they reveal that

00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:52.610
they were actually born a boy But their mother

00:40:52.610 --> 00:40:54.670
I think their mother said oh she saw a woman's

00:40:54.670 --> 00:40:57.250
future for me So I now wear my woman's clothes

00:40:57.250 --> 00:41:00.530
and keep the story going. So of course that introduces

00:41:00.530 --> 00:41:03.510
the whole transgender Identity community and

00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:05.769
themes to which I thought is interesting. So

00:41:05.769 --> 00:41:08.909
of course Odin supposedly Well, he gets teased

00:41:08.909 --> 00:41:14.969
by Loki in Loki's famous insults round at Njord's

00:41:14.969 --> 00:41:16.769
Hall down under the sea. I'm like, Odin, you

00:41:16.769 --> 00:41:18.949
wear women's clothes and you do women's magic

00:41:18.949 --> 00:41:21.670
kind of thing. And so that possibly might be

00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:24.550
a reference of linking that in something as well

00:41:24.550 --> 00:41:27.900
as kind of. embracing all diversity and ethnicity

00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:30.159
as well. But yes, you mentioned about older women

00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.820
because her thought, she is a very mature woman.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.940
She's probably the oldest female in the group

00:41:34.940 --> 00:41:37.539
besides possibly the vulva. She has no unknown

00:41:37.539 --> 00:41:40.579
age. But she mentions having had three sons and

00:41:40.579 --> 00:41:43.039
having lost them in battle and wanting to join

00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:46.239
them as well, which I thought was a really interesting

00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:49.900
twist as the journey went on. kind of like the

00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:53.340
ramifications increased just how will I get to

00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:56.300
see my sons if we topple the gods what becomes

00:41:56.300 --> 00:42:00.360
of Valhalla where do we go and then of course

00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.239
spoiler alert she doesn't sadly get to go to

00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:06.559
Valhalla because she picks a cursed sword which

00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:09.539
again I think is a nice twist maybe very loosely

00:42:09.539 --> 00:42:13.539
to the sword of tirthing Well, that's what Hell

00:42:13.539 --> 00:42:15.559
says. She goes, oh, she can't go to Allah because

00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:17.320
she's got a cursed soul, so I'm taking her. But

00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:19.579
don't worry, she's no pawn of the gods anymore.

00:42:19.820 --> 00:42:22.659
I'll look after it down with my undead friends

00:42:22.659 --> 00:42:27.659
kind of thing. Well, Dierfing was cursed. Yes,

00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:30.900
it was. It was cursed. She didn't die from the

00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:32.559
sword. She passed it to her sons who then killed

00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:34.500
each other, or one killed the other, I should

00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:39.000
say. But yes. This is a kind of interesting development,

00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.780
though, isn't it? Because we've, according to

00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:47.000
the traditional myth, if you die in battle and

00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:51.539
you're male, you're going to Valhalla. And everybody

00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:53.559
else is going down to the Hall of Hell, which

00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.079
is why Baldur ends up there because he doesn't

00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:01.340
die in battle. And yet nobody in modern retellings,

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:04.440
people are really a bit unhappy about that. And

00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.920
you find in quite a lot of games, for example,

00:43:07.059 --> 00:43:11.570
I think in Assassin's Creed but you get it as

00:43:11.570 --> 00:43:16.829
early as the 1958 Vikings movie the idea that

00:43:16.829 --> 00:43:19.369
if you really want to go to Valhalla and you

00:43:19.369 --> 00:43:22.150
die with a sword in your hand off you can go

00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:26.190
even if you weren't in battle and you have the

00:43:26.190 --> 00:43:29.230
female protagonists in the Assassin's Creed Valhalla

00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:32.369
going yeah I'm going to Valhalla people are going

00:43:32.369 --> 00:43:34.869
to Valhalla in Vikings the TV women are going

00:43:34.869 --> 00:43:39.900
to Valhalla the TV show, even this kind of crazy

00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:43.820
polar bear that turns up in one of the side adventures

00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:46.500
of his age. The bear's going to Valhalla, I mean

00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:50.920
who isn't in Valhalla? So the rules have really

00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.199
got bent around that. But one of the things in

00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:58.239
that book by Kate Hartfield, the Valkyrie, that

00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:01.039
we were talking about in Svanger a bit weren't

00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.610
these? you get an alternative set up where the

00:44:05.610 --> 00:44:08.170
Valkyries who have been working for Odin and

00:44:08.170 --> 00:44:11.590
now starting to work for Freya who takes half

00:44:11.590 --> 00:44:15.110
the dead and Freya is running a kind of independent

00:44:15.110 --> 00:44:19.349
post -death franchise there and so there's a

00:44:19.349 --> 00:44:24.130
kind of sense that Freya's role becomes quite

00:44:24.130 --> 00:44:27.630
complex in this show that she does have half

00:44:27.630 --> 00:44:30.650
the dead she's got a say in this she's got some

00:44:31.720 --> 00:44:34.980
influence over the Valkyries and although they're

00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:40.039
still quite rule -bound she and Hel are working

00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:43.159
together and and Heather's gonna be okay even

00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.360
if and I think the whole curse weapon thing you

00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:51.639
and Fahri did warn them all to be fair but he

00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.300
didn't say what the curse how the curse would

00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:59.949
play out No, that is true. Do go read the Valkyrie

00:44:59.949 --> 00:45:02.489
by Kate Hatfield. It's a mind -blowing explanation

00:45:02.489 --> 00:45:05.969
of Valkyrie and of course around the whole saga

00:45:05.969 --> 00:45:09.469
of the ball songs of Brynhildr and Sigurd. It's

00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:12.110
very not Wagner's operatic cycle which I quite

00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:14.590
around. even though I don't think I could quite

00:45:14.590 --> 00:45:17.969
watch the whole cycle. And I make a comment about

00:45:17.969 --> 00:45:21.409
the Valkyries. I was so annoyed that they they

00:45:21.409 --> 00:45:24.190
were naked and we get all these close -ups of

00:45:24.190 --> 00:45:30.889
their boobs. I was like do we really have to

00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:35.710
go to this you know 15 year old guy fantasy of

00:45:35.710 --> 00:45:38.130
what the Valkyries would look like. They're war

00:45:38.130 --> 00:45:40.769
-maidens. It's a very Zack Snyder thing to do.

00:45:41.070 --> 00:45:46.730
Yeah, there were a lot of boobs. They had winged

00:45:46.730 --> 00:45:49.630
helmets of different styles and types, but I

00:45:49.630 --> 00:45:53.130
was struck by how distant they were from everything.

00:45:53.449 --> 00:45:55.110
Even though they were literally hovering over

00:45:55.110 --> 00:45:57.010
the battlefield, they always kind of like beamed

00:45:57.010 --> 00:45:59.210
down like in Star Trek, then beamed back out.

00:45:59.849 --> 00:46:02.110
kind of like Sigrid was appealing to them very

00:46:02.110 --> 00:46:04.829
directly kind of like please take my friend please

00:46:04.829 --> 00:46:06.869
take her and they were just kind of like not

00:46:06.869 --> 00:46:11.030
an emotion or not one word was said and something

00:46:11.030 --> 00:46:13.690
like who who is giving their orders how are they

00:46:13.690 --> 00:46:16.730
choosing what again I had questions more than

00:46:16.730 --> 00:46:19.329
answers from their kind of their role in this

00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:22.190
but of course that then just nicely goes back

00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:25.300
to Odin who of course is typically seen as the

00:46:25.300 --> 00:46:27.840
commander -in -chief of the Valkyries and he

00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:29.340
tells them go get that one and that one and that

00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:31.260
one and that one in the shopping list of dead

00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:34.539
people to go get em because Odin is presented

00:46:34.539 --> 00:46:41.329
in a very very starkly different embodiment,

00:46:41.329 --> 00:46:44.150
I guess you could say, in that he's shown as

00:46:44.150 --> 00:46:48.150
having three aspects of himself, a king, a storyteller,

00:46:48.190 --> 00:46:50.550
and of course the wise being that he sacrificed

00:46:50.550 --> 00:46:54.230
himself on a tree, which not many people of the

00:46:54.230 --> 00:46:56.789
Marvel fandom will know that he did hang himself

00:46:56.789 --> 00:46:59.710
on a tree, to himself, stabbed himself, gave

00:46:59.710 --> 00:47:02.050
himself a gracious wound, and also the runes

00:47:02.050 --> 00:47:06.869
at the same time. I liked that depiction of Odin.

00:47:07.050 --> 00:47:09.690
I liked that they showed him that way. And then

00:47:09.690 --> 00:47:14.510
when she, the said Kona grabbed hold of memory

00:47:14.510 --> 00:47:17.550
and killed it. And then Odin started almost like,

00:47:17.550 --> 00:47:20.010
like he was glitching, you know, he was like

00:47:20.010 --> 00:47:22.610
glitch Odin. And it was, it was very interesting.

00:47:22.610 --> 00:47:24.730
I thought to have that happen, to have him be,

00:47:25.110 --> 00:47:27.409
and then the way his voice sounded and like he

00:47:27.409 --> 00:47:29.809
was everywhere. It was, I thought it was very

00:47:29.809 --> 00:47:34.059
interesting. I did not like the vision of Jesus.

00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:37.739
That completely jerked me right out of the story.

00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.639
I understood what they were trying to do. They

00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.699
were showing that Ragnarok is the end. People

00:47:43.699 --> 00:47:45.500
are going to stop worshipping you and they're

00:47:45.500 --> 00:47:48.619
going to start worshipping this God. But just

00:47:48.619 --> 00:47:53.300
the church and just him. It was the touch of

00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:55.559
the face. I thought, why are they touching each

00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:01.869
other? Why? It took me out of the world. Because

00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:03.750
it did look reckon though it's me. I thought

00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:06.489
isn't that some Patrick's Cathedral in New York.

00:48:06.489 --> 00:48:09.949
You look like that. Yeah, yeah In American setup.

00:48:10.230 --> 00:48:12.010
Yeah, and then I'm surprised he wasn't freaking

00:48:12.010 --> 00:48:15.030
out about the cars driving around him Yeah, I

00:48:15.030 --> 00:48:17.130
kind of like the new gold that emerged flying

00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:19.530
down from like why he's hanging a tree and then

00:48:19.530 --> 00:48:21.489
suddenly he's seeing anyone else but the thing

00:48:21.489 --> 00:48:25.050
that got me about that particular scene in century

00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:30.559
View that And in 19th century mythological treatments,

00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:33.800
what you get is the idea that it's Thor who is,

00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:36.380
of course you get that already in the sagas,

00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:40.739
that Thor is the big guy who is standing up against

00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:43.579
the white Christ who's being brought by the missionaries.

00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:46.500
And you have that in Longfellow, for example,

00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.579
Thor's challenge. He talks about how there's

00:48:49.579 --> 00:48:51.699
Thor stomping around in his chariot waiting in

00:48:51.699 --> 00:48:55.599
his his hammer and shouting and being a war god.

00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:00.039
But the gentle Galilean goes, Thor, no, the future

00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:03.139
does not belong to you. So this idea that this

00:49:03.139 --> 00:49:06.739
peaceful religion is going to this place, the

00:49:06.739 --> 00:49:12.239
kind of warmongering of Old Norse religion is

00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:14.480
something that you did get in the 19th century.

00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.480
But what you had there with Odin hanging from

00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:21.179
his tree and Christ hanging from his tree. was

00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:25.960
very much kind of modern scholarly speculation,

00:49:26.059 --> 00:49:28.539
I guess, going back to the idea of the hang gods

00:49:28.539 --> 00:49:31.780
that you have in the Golden Bough. But also people

00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:35.159
have said, why doesn't Snorri Sturluson ever

00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:40.980
tell us about Odin hanging from the tree? It's

00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:43.000
in the Poetic Edda, but it's not in the Prose

00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:45.840
Edda. And people have suggested it's because

00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:47.739
Snorri thought about that myth and thought, ah,

00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:52.019
there's only one hang god. in my world, and that's

00:49:52.019 --> 00:49:54.980
Christ. We're not going to suggest that Christ

00:49:54.980 --> 00:49:59.059
have those parallels. But the scriptwriters picked

00:49:59.059 --> 00:50:01.559
up on that, I think. And that's how we ended

00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.880
up with, oh, look, suddenly we're in New York.

00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:07.920
And I find that a bit jarring. I wouldn't have

00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:12.840
minded having Christ and Ovin kind of eyeballing

00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:14.980
each other like that. But that kind of vision

00:50:14.980 --> 00:50:17.739
of the future also suggests it was an American

00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:25.500
future. And that had to me a kind of a touch

00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:28.719
of cultural imperialism, which the show has been

00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.519
quite good about avoiding with all of these Scandinavian

00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:35.320
actors. Yes, because, of course, the whole terrain

00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:38.119
that we travel through this series is very much

00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:41.880
fantasy. It's not familiar. It's not quite Scandinavia.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.679
It's not quite England or Saxon or anywhere in

00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.219
Europe. It's very much new fantasy terrain. It

00:50:49.219 --> 00:50:51.820
doesn't seem to... It's pretty scandalous, isn't

00:50:51.820 --> 00:50:54.219
it? It is. I mean we have the giant causeway

00:50:54.219 --> 00:50:56.599
literally lead them to the giant clam which I

00:50:56.599 --> 00:50:59.000
thought was a really nice touch actually. Although

00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:00.380
interesting that they kind of like they could

00:51:00.380 --> 00:51:02.960
summon it and de -summon it with a blast of a

00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.099
giant horn which she had to leap up a tree. But

00:51:06.099 --> 00:51:08.500
going back to that scene with the seed Kona,

00:51:08.699 --> 00:51:12.199
Aeol and Odin, kind of like she says, no more

00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.579
looking back high one such is the cost of foresight,

00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:18.239
because of course she's taken memory. So she's

00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:20.320
showing him the future, but he might not remember

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.079
it now because she's taken memory, although kind

00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:26.199
of like he cradles memory like a newborn dove.

00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.139
But then she herself has an interesting twist

00:51:30.139 --> 00:51:34.059
in that Odin does. kill her after seeing this

00:51:34.059 --> 00:51:36.900
and Eagle gets to her just in time and she says

00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:38.860
very dramatically this was the last thing I saw

00:51:38.860 --> 00:51:41.440
of Eagle and then she dies but then she dramatically

00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:45.679
transforms into what Freya suggests is a new

00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.599
goddess, a mixture of azir and vanir blood. But

00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:52.500
I'm not sure what she could be or who she might

00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:55.239
be representing that comes next, or indeed what

00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:57.519
she could be doing next in season two, because

00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:00.099
she was very aloof about everything. She goes

00:52:00.099 --> 00:52:02.659
like, I know you, eagle, but then I don't know

00:52:02.659 --> 00:52:04.860
you because I have no recollection of my mortal

00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:08.090
life. That was another callback to the Lord of

00:52:08.090 --> 00:52:10.829
the Rings when Gandalf the Grey falls and he

00:52:10.829 --> 00:52:13.829
comes back and he's Gandalf the White and he

00:52:13.829 --> 00:52:16.389
sees the others and he's like, I know you but

00:52:16.389 --> 00:52:18.849
he's kind of not and he's totally different now.

00:52:18.849 --> 00:52:23.070
He has more powers. Yeah, I could go on about

00:52:23.070 --> 00:52:25.889
all the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings. I'm

00:52:25.889 --> 00:52:28.210
so glad I have you on because I haven't seen

00:52:28.210 --> 00:52:30.530
the Lord of the Rings films in many, many years.

00:52:30.630 --> 00:52:33.309
Over 10, if not 15, nearly 20, I'm that old.

00:52:33.610 --> 00:52:36.369
So I just, as much as I love the series, I just,

00:52:36.489 --> 00:52:40.269
oh but yes, it's interesting. Well I thought

00:52:40.269 --> 00:52:44.829
what was going on there actually was, and I'm

00:52:44.829 --> 00:52:47.349
not sure if there wasn't some reference to the

00:52:47.349 --> 00:52:50.849
myth earlier on, but in the series' prophecy

00:52:50.849 --> 00:52:54.449
in Berluspau, we have this bigger Hader who is

00:52:54.449 --> 00:52:57.230
burnt three times in the Hall of the Gods and

00:52:57.230 --> 00:53:01.710
comes back three times, and I thought that was

00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:05.699
what What the said corner became at that point

00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:09.579
that she'd been destroyed and she she was unkillable

00:53:09.579 --> 00:53:12.840
And we don't quite know it looks as if Heather

00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.380
is Because she's quite an important figure in

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:20.340
in Joanne Harris's work Testament of Loki is

00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:24.800
oh gospel gospel of Loki. I think That she's

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.619
somebody who's kind of unkillable and the female

00:53:27.619 --> 00:53:31.300
principle and one with a kind of wisdom. Of course,

00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:34.460
in The Witch's Heart as well, that's Angrin Malka

00:53:34.460 --> 00:53:38.639
is that unkillable figure too. So I thought it

00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:44.440
was making play with that. But I can't really

00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.519
for the life of me see why she was an Icy of

00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:52.059
Varnir mashup without having some kind of family

00:53:52.059 --> 00:53:54.780
connection that was clear. Well, I think that's

00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.039
the one thing that I didn't like about this test.

00:53:57.179 --> 00:54:00.119
Yes, because she had a connection to Freya. My

00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:03.340
wife is, I've got the word, Freya, my wife was

00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:05.780
useless. She had given her gift to gut -weaving

00:54:05.780 --> 00:54:08.219
mortals, because of course the vulva uses the

00:54:08.219 --> 00:54:11.440
vulva. Steve Kona uses lots of gut and intestines

00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:15.000
in all her magic. Wolf -riding witches, which

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.300
was a nice twist to angry mode because that's

00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:20.809
mentioned in the law. of the word past mother

00:54:20.809 --> 00:54:23.170
to daughter. Now, of course, in this case, we

00:54:23.170 --> 00:54:26.289
noted Kona was born a boy, but they now identify

00:54:26.289 --> 00:54:28.530
it as a girl. So it's interesting how it still

00:54:28.530 --> 00:54:31.969
channels along. Well, you know, that's a good

00:54:31.969 --> 00:54:35.309
point, Caroline, about the entrails in the Valkyrie.

00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:39.420
What was it that Irish tale where they saw in

00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:42.360
the hut and they're using the entrails as the

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:45.440
as the thread and the skulls as the warp weights

00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:48.559
and Maybe that is a callback to that. I'm sure

00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:50.820
that I thought oh, yeah, I recognize that bit.

00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.199
Yeah Yeah, I put in my notes rather unfortunate

00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:56.360
and disappointing that they completely honestly

00:54:56.360 --> 00:54:58.880
made Freya next to powerless when she really

00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:02.250
isn't which is I think I hope those of you who

00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:04.429
agree that she was quite powerful, you've already

00:55:04.429 --> 00:55:06.849
eluded that she had half the dead, as we know

00:55:06.849 --> 00:55:09.030
from other depictions like in Crate Hartfields

00:55:09.030 --> 00:55:12.449
and Valkyrie, and she does, she knows cedar magic

00:55:12.449 --> 00:55:14.989
and yet for some reason in this universe she

00:55:14.989 --> 00:55:17.590
gives it all up in order to bring peace to her

00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:21.170
tribe, the Vanir, and now is Odin, which again,

00:55:21.309 --> 00:55:25.550
there's no frig, no sign of frig, and yet she's

00:55:25.550 --> 00:55:28.070
there doing next and she's really just kind of

00:55:28.070 --> 00:55:30.050
like a messenger between the Vanir and Loki and

00:55:30.050 --> 00:55:33.250
that's about it. It's actually like a kind of

00:55:33.250 --> 00:55:39.489
sleeper agent in Asgard. Possibly. Yeah, she's

00:55:39.489 --> 00:55:43.150
the Vanir insider who's been kind of, it's a

00:55:43.150 --> 00:55:47.829
little bit, it struck me as like when Theseus

00:55:47.829 --> 00:55:51.130
marries or takes Hippolyta, the queen of the

00:55:51.130 --> 00:55:55.460
Amazons and as you get at the beginning of Midsummer

00:55:55.460 --> 00:55:58.019
Night's Dream, for example. And so you've got

00:55:58.019 --> 00:56:01.880
this couple who are married, but the wife has

00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:05.860
got power of her own. And she's kind of keeping

00:56:05.860 --> 00:56:08.440
it under wraps. She's pretty equivocal about

00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:11.480
the situation. And you can kind of see, I think,

00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.699
Freyja sort of biding her time and kind of not

00:56:15.699 --> 00:56:19.449
minding too much being Mrs. Odin. Though we never

00:56:19.449 --> 00:56:22.329
really see enough of Odin to get a sense of what

00:56:22.329 --> 00:56:26.170
their relationship is like. But when she starts

00:56:26.170 --> 00:56:28.809
getting the call from the Vanir going, you know

00:56:28.809 --> 00:56:32.510
what, we're going to come for those guys, she's

00:56:32.510 --> 00:56:36.940
ready to open the gates there. And it also steps

00:56:36.940 --> 00:56:39.579
in front of Thor when he's about to kill everyone

00:56:39.579 --> 00:56:42.280
after Baldr's dramatic death, which, again, was

00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:44.280
a twist. I didn't actually see it coming until

00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:47.039
it actually happened because I didn't twig that

00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:49.559
the marriage wreath that Sigrid has was mistletoe

00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:51.900
until it was actually, oh yeah, it's just gone

00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:55.389
through Baldr. That explains it. And because

00:56:55.389 --> 00:56:57.750
she zooms down and actually holds Thor back,

00:56:58.829 --> 00:57:01.150
she actually improves physical strength. And

00:57:01.150 --> 00:57:03.170
then, of course, he breaks down in tears, and

00:57:03.170 --> 00:57:06.440
they both Star Trek beam off. to Valhalla, as

00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:09.460
Loki says it. Oh, that reminds me. The ships

00:57:09.460 --> 00:57:11.480
with the Anhoja are coming down from Valhalla.

00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:14.320
Why are they coming down from the sky? Why are

00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:17.679
they landing like stormtroopers on the battlefield?

00:57:18.059 --> 00:57:20.039
It made me laugh. I'm like, why are they doing

00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:24.440
this? It's a ruin of a perfectly good ship. Well,

00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:27.780
and also you said they didn't mention. Frigg,

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.719
but maybe the storytellers are using that idea

00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:35.559
that Frigg and Freya are the same and they've

00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:37.800
just separated over the years and that's why.

00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:40.300
But they don't mention, Freya isn't in it at

00:57:40.300 --> 00:57:44.849
all, was he? I didn't. See, there's a brief glimpse

00:57:44.849 --> 00:57:48.050
of him down with those episode where he's got

00:57:48.050 --> 00:57:51.369
like that He's had he's had his night with that

00:57:51.369 --> 00:57:53.469
woman that I still can't get the name pronounced,

00:57:53.469 --> 00:57:55.150
right? So I'm just gonna say something Roger

00:57:55.150 --> 00:57:59.610
or whatever Yeah, I just know her as defeat lady

00:57:59.610 --> 00:58:07.840
defeat. It's just defeat in my notes Well done,

00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.400
Sasha. I cannot pronounce English at the best

00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:14.079
of times. I'm like, where is this character come

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:17.579
from? Does she have any link at all to Northampton?

00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:18.900
Because I certainly haven't come across her before.

00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:22.159
Well, it turns out she does. Oh, really? Because

00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:25.239
thanks to Wikipedia, which is not, of course,

00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.159
the best source, but it's the only place, and

00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:30.000
I Googled it, it was the only place I could find

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:35.440
her. And it apparently turns up in a temple inscription

00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:40.179
from the third century Netherlands so she's right

00:58:40.179 --> 00:58:43.460
down from the very south of among the Germanic

00:58:43.460 --> 00:58:47.679
tribes there but it's a Germanic name and it's

00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:50.880
a feminine name and the inscription says something

00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.320
that can be interpreted like this is where we

00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:57.960
worship Sandro the Sandro de Ga and then there's

00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:01.199
a lot of debate about what the name means is

00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:06.039
it sand? like sand and rose meaning red, so the

00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:09.840
red sand one, or is it sand meaning derived from

00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:14.199
the word for true? So the true what, something

00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:19.840
else, who knows? So they've, I think, gone for

00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:24.380
a very abstract idea. But she does have a kind

00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:28.449
of genuine but much older name. And the same

00:59:28.449 --> 00:59:33.010
goes for Tiwaz, of course, who was the kind of

00:59:33.010 --> 00:59:38.269
very The Green Knight, 1921 film, kind of very

00:59:38.269 --> 00:59:41.769
twiggy leader of the Vanir. And I thought he

00:59:41.769 --> 00:59:44.789
was quite derivative of that film. But his name,

00:59:44.929 --> 00:59:49.130
Tiwaz, is the older form of Tyr, and Tyr is one

00:59:49.130 --> 00:59:52.789
of the Isir. So there's kind of ancient layer

00:59:52.789 --> 00:59:58.599
of names that the showrunners have picked up

00:59:58.599 --> 01:00:02.119
on to produce the characters that they need,

01:00:02.219 --> 01:00:04.880
but they can't get from the more canonical figures.

01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:10.539
And speaking of like ancient... callbacks. Did

01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:13.199
anybody else notice when in the final battle

01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:16.300
when Thor was riding in his chariot and was dragging

01:00:16.300 --> 01:00:21.159
Tiwaz's body behind the chariot? Yeah. Oh, just

01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:24.900
like Achilles in the, in the Iliad. Interesting

01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:27.300
little reference. Yeah. I just remember thinking

01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:29.719
that's overkill. Like he'd already like stomped

01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:31.900
him to death and made his point and then was

01:00:31.900 --> 01:00:34.449
like, right, I'll drag him around. I felt sorry

01:00:34.449 --> 01:00:36.349
for him because his body started climbing after

01:00:36.349 --> 01:00:39.250
the head, after the head had been cut off. The

01:00:39.250 --> 01:00:41.610
body is not in the head but the head is gone.

01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:47.130
It was the green knight, absolutely. I thought,

01:00:47.630 --> 01:00:50.190
does David Lowry know that they've stolen his

01:00:50.190 --> 01:00:53.329
green knight for this figure? It's really quite

01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:57.889
striking. Shall we touch briefly on and Valerie

01:00:57.889 --> 01:01:00.809
the Dwarf and of course the legend of Fafnir

01:01:00.809 --> 01:01:04.530
and the gold and not a very cursed ring but they

01:01:04.530 --> 01:01:09.050
used that in a very different way in placing

01:01:09.050 --> 01:01:13.869
Fafnir's as kind of like Loki's minion of sorts

01:01:13.869 --> 01:01:16.309
and guarding the apples which they've claimed

01:01:16.309 --> 01:01:18.489
from the banana. Again, there's no Edun. There's

01:01:18.489 --> 01:01:20.630
no Edun looking after the apples. I've got a

01:01:20.630 --> 01:01:24.809
dragon instead. But that's from Greek myth, of

01:01:24.809 --> 01:01:27.449
course. So that's the dragon that guards the

01:01:27.449 --> 01:01:32.170
golden apples of the Hesperides. It's one of

01:01:32.170 --> 01:01:36.190
the leaders of Hercules. He has to go and get

01:01:36.190 --> 01:01:39.510
the golden apples from this garden of the far

01:01:39.510 --> 01:01:43.929
western end of the world and face off this dragon

01:01:43.929 --> 01:01:46.989
and take them. I don't think he kills the dragon,

01:01:46.989 --> 01:01:49.190
actually. He just has to outwit it and take the

01:01:49.190 --> 01:01:53.050
apples. There's a second call from Country Cousins,

01:01:53.349 --> 01:01:56.329
I promise you. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm going

01:01:56.329 --> 01:01:58.730
to have to duck out for a minute. No worries,

01:01:58.869 --> 01:02:00.789
you go for it Caroline. I'll be back in a sec.

01:02:01.469 --> 01:02:05.750
No worries, it's all editable. So what did you

01:02:05.750 --> 01:02:09.550
two think of Edvary and Fafnir and all that jazz,

01:02:09.730 --> 01:02:13.250
so to speak? Yeah, I liked that. I liked the

01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:16.909
way it was portrayed and coming back to what

01:02:16.909 --> 01:02:20.699
Caroline said before, they didn't... technically

01:02:20.699 --> 01:02:25.280
kill Bafnir until Leif kind of makes a point

01:02:25.280 --> 01:02:28.239
of you know chopping his head off and Saying

01:02:28.239 --> 01:02:31.280
you know to say good that you know, is this what

01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:33.800
you want? You know, I'll be what you want if

01:02:33.800 --> 01:02:39.280
you want Yeah, it was interesting I liked how

01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:41.860
they described the dwarves as princes and as

01:02:41.929 --> 01:02:43.809
they're all being shape -difting friends because

01:02:43.809 --> 01:02:46.369
of course there was the heron and Varys the fish

01:02:46.369 --> 01:02:49.329
and of course there was the other dwarf who was

01:02:49.329 --> 01:02:52.389
the otter of course. Otter was his name. Yes.

01:02:53.829 --> 01:02:55.769
I should have known that really because I have

01:02:55.769 --> 01:03:00.090
read it twice. But it was interesting that kind

01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:02.969
of like they all weaved into kind of like Loki

01:03:02.969 --> 01:03:05.090
stealing the treasure and it's not the curse

01:03:05.090 --> 01:03:07.710
to ring which is what most people remember from

01:03:07.710 --> 01:03:09.730
of course Wagner's opera and the Nibelungiad.

01:03:10.329 --> 01:03:12.949
Well, you can never pronounce that word, either.

01:03:13.750 --> 01:03:17.190
But the treasure that is cursed back in, of course,

01:03:17.269 --> 01:03:18.550
they made a good point. They're like, yeah, once

01:03:18.550 --> 01:03:20.210
you're a dragon, you can't really inherit your

01:03:20.210 --> 01:03:22.449
father's kingdom. So kind of like Loki wins,

01:03:22.570 --> 01:03:25.550
wins and all these points and destroys a whole

01:03:25.550 --> 01:03:27.789
dwarven heritage. And there goes a kingdom without

01:03:27.789 --> 01:03:31.369
an heir. It was an interesting choice, though,

01:03:31.409 --> 01:03:34.190
to leave Odin out of that story, because Odin

01:03:34.190 --> 01:03:37.329
was in he was a part of that story and wasn't.

01:03:37.889 --> 01:03:40.429
wasn't there somebody else? There's like another

01:03:40.429 --> 01:03:44.190
God who every now and then, like it's Odin's

01:03:44.190 --> 01:03:46.230
brother or somebody, and now I can't remember,

01:03:46.309 --> 01:03:48.829
I wish I would've looked it up. Sometimes shows

01:03:48.829 --> 01:03:51.510
up in stories and I think he was one, there was

01:03:51.510 --> 01:03:54.030
the three of them and then they got hungry and

01:03:54.030 --> 01:03:56.230
that's why they killed the otter and then they,

01:03:56.230 --> 01:03:59.750
you know, that's when they ran into their father.

01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.119
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting choice

01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.039
to leave Odin out of. I wonder if they just wanted

01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:07.300
to make Odin so much more mysterious, that we

01:04:07.300 --> 01:04:10.420
don't see him really much. He was very elusive,

01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:12.380
I thought. I mean, there's a scene where Thor's

01:04:12.380 --> 01:04:14.480
shouting at the top, kind of like, you've had

01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:17.400
your turn, you've had your huntsman, which I

01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:19.840
thought was a really interesting maybe twist

01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:23.230
on the wild hunt kind of thing that Odin... goes

01:04:23.230 --> 01:04:28.030
on supposedly in the autumn time. That hunt was

01:04:28.030 --> 01:04:33.449
very, that was total Peter Jackson. When the

01:04:33.449 --> 01:04:36.429
Nazgul are chasing the hobbits, it was, even

01:04:36.429 --> 01:04:40.789
the music sounded like the Howard Shore score

01:04:40.789 --> 01:04:43.110
a little bit. As soon as I saw that, I went,

01:04:43.289 --> 01:04:45.489
oh my gosh, they're the Nazgul and they're chasing

01:04:45.489 --> 01:04:47.710
our heroes, only they're not hobbits and they're

01:04:47.710 --> 01:04:52.579
not helpless, but yeah. You know, I think it's

01:04:52.579 --> 01:04:54.619
after there's a kid stood in the road as they

01:04:54.619 --> 01:04:56.519
drive past and he just chops them down rather.

01:04:56.519 --> 01:04:59.340
Oh, yeah Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:01.420
I thought that was I was really puzzled. It's

01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:05.239
like if Odin sends these Things because we don't

01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:07.079
really see their faces. They were what were they

01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:10.539
called again the bullforkers? I think I wrote

01:05:10.539 --> 01:05:13.579
down bullforkers and I that sounds right. I've

01:05:13.579 --> 01:05:16.500
never heard that term before You will gladden

01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:20.619
his Ravens one Absolutely epic episode title

01:05:30.240 --> 01:05:35.679
It wasn't it that same episode where, uh, after

01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:43.250
they got the said Kona on their team. Yeah. they

01:05:43.250 --> 01:05:45.210
were crossing some water and there were the women

01:05:45.210 --> 01:05:48.170
floating in the water. They had been like shunned

01:05:48.170 --> 01:05:49.730
in wars or something. And I thought, well, that's

01:05:49.730 --> 01:05:53.489
like the dead marshes where the hobbits, the

01:05:53.489 --> 01:05:56.210
fallen warriors who were in the water. That was

01:05:56.210 --> 01:05:58.389
really interesting. I thought it is talking back

01:05:58.389 --> 01:06:01.909
to a time before kind of like the Norse, when

01:06:01.909 --> 01:06:03.889
there was the Norse, when it was just Germanic

01:06:03.889 --> 01:06:07.309
tribes where women might have had been more.

01:06:07.799 --> 01:06:10.380
punished and persecuted for all sorts of reasons,

01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:11.820
because it looks like, oh, this is the way the

01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:14.440
women and the preceptors who spoke out had their

01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:16.780
tongues cut out and they were locked in. And

01:06:16.780 --> 01:06:19.960
of course, all the undead bodies, it's very much

01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:25.079
like the opposite version of sirens, or kind

01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:27.840
of like, it's a very undead sirens very much,

01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:29.880
because they were just fighting back and woo,

01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:32.059
and then of course they all got animated when

01:06:32.059 --> 01:06:34.039
they charged the gates. And even like the figure

01:06:34.039 --> 01:06:38.449
at the gate appeared to be female. in some regards

01:06:38.449 --> 01:06:40.550
she had a very female voice and I liked how they

01:06:40.550 --> 01:06:42.409
kind of like had death speak even though it came

01:06:42.409 --> 01:06:45.449
up in sometimes like death speak then then Loki

01:06:45.449 --> 01:06:48.329
has to spit into her mouth for anyone to understand

01:06:48.329 --> 01:06:55.889
but I but yes the bulwarks were I thought really

01:06:55.889 --> 01:06:58.809
odd because surely if people who worship Odin

01:06:58.809 --> 01:07:01.050
know these guys are Odin's guys and yet they

01:07:01.050 --> 01:07:03.989
go around killing everyone why would anyone worship

01:07:03.989 --> 01:07:07.039
Odin if they know that these guys can come round

01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:09.960
and just kill everyone for whatever Odin commands.

01:07:10.659 --> 01:07:13.739
Because they do find the boy and his parents,

01:07:13.980 --> 01:07:17.280
like, oh, yes, we will leave you to Odin, and

01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:19.239
he will flatten his ravens, and we'll be blessed,

01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:22.940
and we'll be spared. I'm like, no. No, I mean,

01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:25.980
I've always believed that kind of like even.

01:07:26.139 --> 01:07:27.860
Marvel doesn't really get it right, that Odin

01:07:27.860 --> 01:07:30.219
is probably more of a trickster in Loki and that

01:07:30.219 --> 01:07:32.659
no one thinks that Odin is a trickster, but he

01:07:32.659 --> 01:07:35.800
is. He is more deceitful than Loki at times in

01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:38.199
a lot of the mythology. I mean, I remember reading

01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:40.900
one of the sagas where Odin pretends to be someone

01:07:40.900 --> 01:07:42.460
on the other side of a river and he just has

01:07:42.460 --> 01:07:44.860
some lovely insults he's mapped with Thor for

01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:46.940
no reason. He just likes to play around with

01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:50.360
insults. And I'm like, why? What's the point?

01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:52.940
What kind of father figure are you? But yes.

01:07:55.159 --> 01:08:00.380
Did he pit? Well, didn't he have like a contest

01:08:00.380 --> 01:08:04.179
between him and Frigg with some? uh or was it

01:08:04.179 --> 01:08:06.159
Freya and they were they just went down and they

01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:08.460
just started messing around with these king's

01:08:08.460 --> 01:08:12.239
lives and they had no thought to anybody I can't

01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:14.480
remember the story was it Freya or was it Freya

01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:16.920
that he was doing that with or anyway that's

01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:18.640
mentioned in your book well I'll say the book

01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:20.800
that you're part of um Odin I'm sure that's an

01:08:20.800 --> 01:08:22.460
introduction I read it they kind of like they

01:08:22.460 --> 01:08:25.680
went down and they both adopted two princes that

01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.659
had right Australia ship Odin says well and they're

01:08:28.659 --> 01:08:30.979
basically oh go forth and make yourselves kings

01:08:31.399 --> 01:08:37.319
And I think it's Briggs chosen one that does

01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:39.699
better than Odin has to come back. It was a bet

01:08:39.699 --> 01:08:46.220
they had. They're just playing with the humans

01:08:46.220 --> 01:08:49.800
like they're, you know, like game pieces. Yeah.

01:08:50.220 --> 01:08:52.859
And then there's the story of the king who wanted

01:08:52.859 --> 01:08:55.579
like he had like two wives and he wanted to choose

01:08:55.579 --> 01:08:58.699
the best one. So he told them they had to both

01:08:58.699 --> 01:09:05.729
brew him beer. and the one went to Odin to help

01:09:05.729 --> 01:09:07.970
her with her beer, and he spit in it, and the

01:09:07.970 --> 01:09:10.189
condition was that he got what was between the

01:09:10.189 --> 01:09:13.810
cauldron and him, and she was pregnant at the

01:09:13.810 --> 01:09:16.590
time, so he ended up claiming her son. So yeah,

01:09:16.609 --> 01:09:23.189
you can't trust Odin. And yet for all that scheming

01:09:23.189 --> 01:09:25.750
mechanics that we know from having read some

01:09:25.750 --> 01:09:27.409
of the catalog and being more familiar with it

01:09:27.409 --> 01:09:30.470
then most, modern day folks. It's interesting

01:09:30.470 --> 01:09:33.569
that they didn't make Odin so aloof and so remote

01:09:33.569 --> 01:09:36.130
and like he doesn't even show any commando the

01:09:36.130 --> 01:09:38.670
Valkyries that slowed his own sons and we don't

01:09:38.670 --> 01:09:40.590
of course see many of them we only see Thor,

01:09:40.710 --> 01:09:44.069
Baldr, Heimdall briefly and Hodder very briefly

01:09:44.069 --> 01:09:46.329
at the end when he literally says oh look it's

01:09:46.329 --> 01:09:50.649
Mistletoe and I'm like yes there's the connection

01:09:50.649 --> 01:09:52.310
they finally put two and two together and got

01:09:52.310 --> 01:09:55.350
Hodder and Mistletoe but he didn't throw the

01:09:55.350 --> 01:09:58.439
dart. as it was in the laureate sea sphere in

01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:01.460
this case. What did you all think of the way

01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:03.560
Balder looked? I thought it was really interesting

01:10:03.560 --> 01:10:06.779
that he was gold and glowing. I like that they

01:10:06.779 --> 01:10:09.859
went with like a literal interpretation. Doctor

01:10:09.859 --> 01:10:12.079
Manhattan vibes, straight off Watchmen. That's

01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:13.859
what I was getting like he's Doctor Manhattan

01:10:13.859 --> 01:10:17.239
but golden. That's it. He's not radioactive,

01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:21.479
thankfully. But yeah, it was interesting. But

01:10:21.479 --> 01:10:23.960
although he had a little part and so did Sif,

01:10:23.979 --> 01:10:26.979
I thought there discussion, of course, kind of

01:10:26.979 --> 01:10:29.859
like in between this battle and she was saying,

01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:32.260
can you just please protect my husband? I know

01:10:32.260 --> 01:10:34.760
he's an idiot and he does all these nasty things,

01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:37.020
but he's only half my harvest, which I thought

01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:40.500
was a really bizarre phrase of describing her

01:10:40.500 --> 01:10:42.859
relationship with him. And she took it like,

01:10:42.859 --> 01:10:45.060
oh, he brings the rain and I bring the wheat

01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:48.359
kind of thing. And I'm going to find the dialogue

01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:51.500
now because I thought that was just really, really

01:10:51.500 --> 01:10:56.369
well. Really well written. I loved her hair.

01:10:56.770 --> 01:11:02.270
I loved how they did her hair. Glowing. Long,

01:11:02.710 --> 01:11:07.510
glowing. She says, I am the grain goddess. He

01:11:07.510 --> 01:11:12.470
is the god of rain. But then Baldr says, when

01:11:12.470 --> 01:11:15.010
your love withered, so too did the world. And

01:11:15.010 --> 01:11:17.310
I'm like, what world are they speaking of? What

01:11:17.310 --> 01:11:21.180
withered? What effects? consequences. What happened?

01:11:21.380 --> 01:11:24.159
What happened? Well, that was the Ragnarök thing,

01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:29.819
isn't it? That the world is kind of running down

01:11:29.819 --> 01:11:34.859
because the Twilight of the Gods is coming. And

01:11:34.859 --> 01:11:37.939
if you think about those verses, yeah, you'd

01:11:37.939 --> 01:11:41.800
be expecting the great winter to come where nothing

01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:44.579
will grow at all. So I think it's that sense

01:11:44.579 --> 01:11:47.920
that the fertility of the world is under pressure.

01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:58.060
Can I ask about the final scene? Okay, I have

01:11:58.060 --> 01:12:00.899
to admit that I thought the battle scenes were

01:12:00.899 --> 01:12:06.619
boring and I skipped some of it It was just it

01:12:06.619 --> 01:12:09.159
was just like battle, you know fight fight fight

01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:10.720
fight fight fight fight fight for a while and

01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:12.039
it just went back and forth back and forth so

01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:14.079
I ended up getting kind of bored. Did you see

01:12:14.079 --> 01:12:18.420
the Sigurd skating on the shield like like this?

01:12:18.520 --> 01:12:24.619
Oh, no. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. And how many times

01:12:24.619 --> 01:12:26.539
was she going to be flying in the air with her

01:12:26.539 --> 01:12:30.680
spear? Anyway, that happened a lot. The slow

01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:33.380
-mo thing, yeah. The slow -mo with her flying.

01:12:34.119 --> 01:12:39.279
Yeah. So I didn't understand what was happening.

01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:43.079
I know why she's in Valhalla, but why Thor? I

01:12:43.079 --> 01:12:45.600
didn't quite get what was going on at the end

01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:52.199
between her and Thor. in Valhalla. Was he dead?

01:12:52.420 --> 01:12:55.199
Like did they kill him or did they just go to

01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:58.619
Valhalla? I think he's just basically his time

01:12:58.619 --> 01:13:00.600
out room because of course he's just witnessed

01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:03.159
and been heartbroken over Baldr's death remarkably.

01:13:03.420 --> 01:13:05.579
We don't see him crying over his failed marriage

01:13:05.579 --> 01:13:08.300
but we see him crying over Baldr. He didn't seem

01:13:08.300 --> 01:13:10.479
to know he was there, that he like he was kind

01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:12.199
of like aware he was there but he was kind of

01:13:12.199 --> 01:13:15.479
like he remembered Sigrid but he didn't like

01:13:15.710 --> 01:13:17.590
He seemed a bit like kind of dead behind the

01:13:17.590 --> 01:13:20.789
eyes while he was in there. Right. Yeah. But

01:13:20.789 --> 01:13:23.050
he also said something like, we've got unfinished

01:13:23.050 --> 01:13:28.609
business. Yeah, that's the pitch for season two,

01:13:28.810 --> 01:13:30.729
isn't it? Yeah, he says we've been tossed and

01:13:30.729 --> 01:13:33.109
blown about by the whims of others, which I thought

01:13:33.109 --> 01:13:35.689
was yes, that's also very true, although it does

01:13:35.689 --> 01:13:38.069
also lay in his court because he started on it.

01:13:38.430 --> 01:13:42.149
I was going to say. He says we both haunt the

01:13:42.149 --> 01:13:45.569
same hearth and so begins the song of Sigrid.

01:13:46.229 --> 01:13:48.609
And then the doors close very dramatically and

01:13:48.609 --> 01:13:52.180
honestly, and we are left thinking boom. But

01:13:52.180 --> 01:13:54.739
it kind of makes sense that Thor does get to

01:13:54.739 --> 01:13:56.819
go to Valhalla nearly in every other iteration

01:13:56.819 --> 01:13:59.760
of Valhalla. All the gods can gather there. It's

01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:04.239
not just Odin, only in Odin's hall. I've got

01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:06.600
a book when Thor is in Valhalla. He's just there

01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:09.000
hanging out because it's a place to hang out.

01:14:16.459 --> 01:14:20.220
When she's on her own with no god -killing weapon

01:14:20.220 --> 01:14:22.380
because of course that's left down on the plains

01:14:22.380 --> 01:14:27.100
of mortality And the slow key of course is allowed

01:14:27.100 --> 01:14:30.020
back in because of course remarkably he does

01:14:30.020 --> 01:14:32.760
take up weapons in this series He does actually

01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:36.939
fight face to face before with Sigrid in partnership,

01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:41.260
albeit Using and Barry's maces, which I thought

01:14:41.260 --> 01:14:43.300
I wasn't sure if that was in good taster in bad

01:14:43.300 --> 01:14:45.140
taste that he killed the dwarf And then he gets

01:14:45.140 --> 01:14:50.180
the weather. Yeah But yes, I think I like to

01:14:50.180 --> 01:14:51.739
have secret charge and kind of like you've made

01:14:51.739 --> 01:14:53.819
all your moves now They know you're a traitor.

01:14:54.060 --> 01:14:56.159
Can you at least get off your ass and come and

01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:58.500
join in in the fray? Because it the battle scene

01:14:58.500 --> 01:15:01.680
was long it I think it was like two episodes

01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:04.939
maybe Pretty well. Yep. I think it started if

01:15:04.939 --> 01:15:07.439
I the hammer because that's when there's that

01:15:07.500 --> 01:15:10.439
Really? I'm not sure if it's a good song or it

01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:12.479
catch. It's certainly catchy song But suits kind

01:15:12.479 --> 01:15:14.819
of Thor's uplifted mood after having a good night

01:15:14.819 --> 01:15:16.720
with Sandra. They go and thinking yeah, I could

01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:21.500
do all this I can't stop this. Yes cast up this

01:15:21.500 --> 01:15:23.000
although kind of like I did thinking kind of

01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:24.899
like at least not playing kind of like stop hammer

01:15:24.899 --> 01:15:31.779
time But yes, they've left it very very open

01:15:31.779 --> 01:15:34.779
-ended and I'm not sure where they can go next

01:15:34.779 --> 01:15:38.439
because surely they will net Loki back into asgard

01:15:38.439 --> 01:15:41.779
odin's having an identity crisis boulder's dead

01:15:41.779 --> 01:15:46.319
freya's Freya she may prove to be the trump card

01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:48.699
and all this now. Um, I guess we don't know he

01:15:48.699 --> 01:15:52.159
did kill segrid. He's got that to his benefit

01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:55.439
He can claim, you know, I was the one who killed

01:15:55.439 --> 01:15:59.149
us Yeah, I mean Leaf probably won't trust him

01:15:59.149 --> 01:16:03.909
again now. No one's gonna trust him again. I

01:16:03.909 --> 01:16:05.649
mean, they can't all kill themselves and join

01:16:05.649 --> 01:16:08.149
it because that's not how Valhalla and Valkyries

01:16:08.149 --> 01:16:12.430
work, it seems. That goes with the lore though.

01:16:12.449 --> 01:16:15.449
I mean, how many times does Loki do something

01:16:15.449 --> 01:16:18.569
that causes mischief and damage and death and

01:16:18.569 --> 01:16:21.970
then they just let him back in to do it again

01:16:21.970 --> 01:16:23.989
until that final time where they finally have

01:16:23.989 --> 01:16:27.720
had enough of him. But you know, Fool me once,

01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:30.960
shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. That's

01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:33.439
how all those gods should feel about Loki. I

01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.399
mean, at least in the stories, he's constantly

01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:39.720
doing something and then they just, he causes

01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:42.760
a problem, he fixes it, and then they just keep

01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:46.359
allowing him to come back in to cause another

01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:50.739
problem. He is the fixer. I think that's the

01:16:50.739 --> 01:16:53.479
issue, isn't it? Because he's not, as far as

01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:55.640
we know, responsible for Thor's hammer being

01:16:55.640 --> 01:16:58.380
stolen in Frimscrither, but yet he's the fixer

01:16:58.380 --> 01:17:02.659
who gets Thor to get the hammer back. And so

01:17:02.659 --> 01:17:05.619
even though they have to put up with a certain

01:17:05.619 --> 01:17:09.739
amount of nonsense from Loki in order to have

01:17:09.739 --> 01:17:12.859
the fixer around, until the point where his complicity

01:17:12.859 --> 01:17:14.819
and the death of Baldr have become such they

01:17:14.819 --> 01:17:18.600
just can't anymore. And you have that final break

01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:26.560
in Loki's Quarrel, Loki's Senna. I really am

01:17:26.560 --> 01:17:29.359
not sure where they can go next, what myth they

01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:33.100
might adapt to resolve this issue of Sigurd versus

01:17:33.100 --> 01:17:38.699
Thor. They've used up a lot of the cannon already,

01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:40.899
haven't they? I mean, they've killed a lot of

01:17:40.899 --> 01:17:43.579
the veneer, even the beehive guy, which I thought

01:17:43.579 --> 01:17:45.680
was a really odd character to throw in and kind

01:17:45.680 --> 01:17:49.260
of have a grieving flower giantess of sorts weeping

01:17:49.260 --> 01:17:52.439
over some dead bees. I'm really struck as to

01:17:52.439 --> 01:17:54.300
where they got all the giant animals from when

01:17:54.300 --> 01:17:56.619
they marched from Asgard. There's a giant fox,

01:17:56.920 --> 01:18:00.520
a badger, a hare. There was all sorts of things

01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:04.939
going on. I guess the only thing they have is

01:18:04.939 --> 01:18:09.439
this new goddess that evolved from the seed Kona,

01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:13.760
because Eagle is out by the time Sigrid gets

01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:17.159
it. So they've got her out, but it's whether

01:18:17.159 --> 01:18:22.199
they can get... Yeah, it's unusual. They're really

01:18:22.199 --> 01:18:26.180
starting to go into unknown territory more than

01:18:26.180 --> 01:18:31.609
they already have done. Sorry, that's all right.

01:18:31.970 --> 01:18:34.949
I just am I'd not come across all four before

01:18:34.949 --> 01:18:37.670
is all four prominent or are they? Because I

01:18:37.670 --> 01:18:39.649
thought peter strommer's performance as him was

01:18:39.649 --> 01:18:42.409
good, but I've not come across Dolph before is

01:18:42.409 --> 01:18:44.729
it is our prominent figure in Norse mythology

01:18:44.729 --> 01:18:56.329
or He's just a representative The fact that he

01:18:56.329 --> 01:19:00.430
can become a werewolf as well is a kind of folkloric

01:19:00.430 --> 01:19:04.329
development. You do have some werewolves in Icelandic

01:19:04.329 --> 01:19:06.909
literature, but they probably come from the European

01:19:06.909 --> 01:19:10.149
werewolves. They're not sort of endemic. So he's

01:19:10.149 --> 01:19:12.970
that kind of Berserker. It's what you have in

01:19:12.970 --> 01:19:16.430
the Northman, when Avdott is part of that kind

01:19:16.430 --> 01:19:19.750
of cult band and he's got the wolf skin and a

01:19:19.750 --> 01:19:24.010
bear pelt as well. So that's what he is. and

01:19:24.010 --> 01:19:27.470
so he's kind of still alive isn't he i think

01:19:27.470 --> 01:19:30.890
no he gets killed a lot he gets killed her though

01:19:30.890 --> 01:19:35.250
gets killed sorry spoilers again yeah um the

01:19:35.250 --> 01:19:38.050
safe corner is turning into something else yes

01:19:38.050 --> 01:19:41.470
he's around yes so you've got lathe and theory

01:19:41.470 --> 01:19:45.489
pretty well is that all that's left um is eagle

01:19:45.489 --> 01:19:50.630
eagle's around eagle leaf this is kona slash

01:19:50.630 --> 01:19:53.819
new goddess Hervo gets it, the wolf gets it,

01:19:53.880 --> 01:19:55.779
and Valar is getting it. So yeah, it's pretty

01:19:55.779 --> 01:19:59.659
much... And Tira, Tira, the archer. Oh yes, sorry,

01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:01.680
I forgot about her, yes, she's... Yeah, the new

01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:06.680
love interest, possibly. Wasn't Ulf Ulfer a god?

01:20:07.199 --> 01:20:09.220
I mean, not this, not in this story. I agree,

01:20:09.239 --> 01:20:11.819
he's just one of the representative of Ulf Hedonar,

01:20:12.180 --> 01:20:15.680
but wasn't there a god name? I'm thinking of

01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:18.060
Ulr, Ulr is what I'm thinking of. Yeah, I'm sorry.

01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:22.119
Yeah. Well, I think what's happened here is that

01:20:22.119 --> 01:20:25.939
they obviously want season two, so they haven't

01:20:25.939 --> 01:20:28.960
had the definitive Bragner at battle. But I think

01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:30.760
they're going to run into a kind of Game of Thrones

01:20:30.760 --> 01:20:32.960
problem that they're not going to have enough

01:20:32.960 --> 01:20:37.060
storyline for another eight episodes. And just

01:20:37.060 --> 01:20:38.420
where is it going to come from? Because they

01:20:38.420 --> 01:20:41.899
burned through a whole lot of stuff here. Or

01:20:41.899 --> 01:20:43.380
else they're gonna do what they did with House

01:20:43.380 --> 01:20:46.760
of the Dragon and just drag out season two. I

01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:51.079
think as well like you've kind of told the from

01:20:51.079 --> 01:20:55.039
my opinion anyway, like Sigrid's kind of arc

01:20:55.039 --> 01:20:57.180
has come full circle in her revenge story, you

01:20:57.180 --> 01:20:59.819
know, she kind of got to the end and kind of

01:20:59.819 --> 01:21:02.460
I don't I guess not forgive Thor but kind of

01:21:02.460 --> 01:21:06.220
went I'm not killing and so for My revenge anymore.

01:21:06.220 --> 01:21:09.079
I'm doing it for for other reasons upon top of

01:21:09.079 --> 01:21:11.729
that. So I don't know you kind of follow that

01:21:11.729 --> 01:21:14.170
revenge thread does she go back to just want

01:21:14.170 --> 01:21:17.350
them to kill him for that reason or is she trying

01:21:17.350 --> 01:21:19.250
to reset the world? Yeah her speech at the end

01:21:19.250 --> 01:21:22.050
immediately made me think of gladiator I am a

01:21:22.050 --> 01:21:24.289
father of a murdered wife I'm a father of a murdered

01:21:24.289 --> 01:21:27.630
husband I am the weeping I am the last giant

01:21:27.630 --> 01:21:30.869
of the open hand I am this I am that and oh yes

01:21:30.869 --> 01:21:39.090
my name is Sigrid and I am here to kill you I

01:21:39.090 --> 01:21:41.569
didn't write it all down, I just put she refuses

01:21:41.569 --> 01:21:45.789
because of course Thor comes out with Sandra

01:21:45.789 --> 01:21:47.350
or whatsoever her name is. I'm just going to

01:21:47.350 --> 01:21:51.350
call her Sandra for short. It's just easier because

01:21:51.350 --> 01:21:54.810
Balder tries to talk sense into Thor not killing

01:21:54.810 --> 01:21:56.869
everyone like he did before, although Thor is

01:21:56.869 --> 01:21:58.930
outraged at Balder for having said like you told

01:21:58.930 --> 01:22:00.789
me I'd killed everyone and Balder goes yes you

01:22:00.789 --> 01:22:03.069
killed all the giants, you didn't clarify you

01:22:03.069 --> 01:22:06.680
were mainly humans as well. but kind of like

01:22:06.680 --> 01:22:09.180
she says kind of like oh like you can walk home

01:22:09.180 --> 01:22:11.840
with me but at least you'll walk home feeling

01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:13.600
you'll be alive kind of thing with the whole

01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:16.420
white shield and I've just put she refuses and

01:22:16.420 --> 01:22:19.539
gives him a speech worthy of gladiator in defiance

01:22:19.539 --> 01:22:22.600
and that's when Thor realizes actually she was

01:22:22.600 --> 01:22:25.039
the one Balder prevented him from killing outright

01:22:25.039 --> 01:22:29.340
and Himdal and Hodder rush to Balder's side and

01:22:29.340 --> 01:22:32.340
it's Hodder that reveals the mistletoe break

01:22:32.340 --> 01:22:38.970
Loki smirks and vanishes. So Loki. But thinking

01:22:38.970 --> 01:22:41.210
of Loki actually only the way they might develop

01:22:41.210 --> 01:22:46.489
this further is if they go and bring Loki more

01:22:46.489 --> 01:22:49.609
to the fore because of course in Ragnarok Loki

01:22:49.609 --> 01:22:52.930
goes and gets a shipload of undead from hell

01:22:52.930 --> 01:22:56.090
made of nails and sales force and tax has gone

01:22:56.090 --> 01:22:59.069
so maybe they've kind of like they've gone down

01:22:59.069 --> 01:23:01.329
the route of challenging the gods head on maybe

01:23:01.329 --> 01:23:03.050
they need to kind of like have their own army.

01:23:03.199 --> 01:23:05.520
of sorts and not the vanilla let's go get into

01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:07.399
the army come on go to hell give me all your

01:23:07.399 --> 01:23:10.180
folks more go and both on a ship because that's

01:23:10.180 --> 01:23:12.600
another way they can maybe i thought it was interesting

01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:15.479
that they didn't really go into the prophecy

01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:18.260
of fenrir and odin much as well, like Fenrir

01:23:18.260 --> 01:23:20.840
was kind of, you know, it was about Jormungandr

01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:24.140
and Hel, but Fenrir wasn't really prominent in

01:23:24.140 --> 01:23:25.920
the story, so I don't know, maybe they explore

01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:28.560
them. Yeah, he's only flashed twice, once when

01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:31.760
he's a pup and in the scene when Odin gets his

01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:37.420
great foresight at great cost, and he sees Jormungandr

01:23:37.420 --> 01:23:40.340
kill Thor and I think he then sees a giant wolf.

01:23:40.590 --> 01:23:43.189
Lunge towards him if not kill him or at least

01:23:43.189 --> 01:23:44.829
just use the giant wolf literally within the

01:23:44.829 --> 01:23:47.489
mountains But that's all we see of Fenrir although

01:23:47.489 --> 01:23:49.909
I did find the proportion between the chains

01:23:49.909 --> 01:23:53.090
and the giant blue eyes a bit too It was a bit

01:23:53.090 --> 01:23:54.789
too out of proportion. It was you see it seemed

01:23:54.789 --> 01:23:58.850
too much So yes, there was a Fenrir hiding around

01:23:58.850 --> 01:24:01.109
and of course as hell and her army with the undead

01:24:01.109 --> 01:24:07.869
ship I like eight episodes to me It is, I think

01:24:07.869 --> 01:24:09.729
we've covered everything, so thank you very much

01:24:09.729 --> 01:24:15.229
Caroline. So, yes, sir. Thank you very much,

01:24:15.609 --> 01:24:18.229
Sasha and Kim. It's been a really interesting

01:24:18.229 --> 01:24:21.010
discussion. I know we've covered lots and I've

01:24:21.010 --> 01:24:23.210
still got lots more notes and I really appreciate

01:24:23.210 --> 01:24:25.350
all your insight into the Lord of the Rings influence.

01:24:25.750 --> 01:24:27.949
It's a new way of saying it. I know what the

01:24:27.949 --> 01:24:30.289
Lord of the Rings then rewatch the series and

01:24:30.289 --> 01:24:32.430
steal the parallels you have. Well, you know,

01:24:32.590 --> 01:24:36.409
Tolkien was inspired by Norse mythology and the

01:24:36.409 --> 01:24:39.510
sagas and stuff, so it makes sense that then...

01:24:39.689 --> 01:24:43.289
Other people are then inspired by it. Okay, and

01:24:43.289 --> 01:24:49.850
just kind of it's just a big circle. Yeah Well,

01:24:49.850 --> 01:24:53.850
I really appreciate you Joining me for this episode.

01:24:53.949 --> 01:24:58.649
Thank you, Sasha. Welcome to Valhalla I'm looking

01:24:58.649 --> 01:25:00.369
forward to having you on the end scene to talk

01:25:00.369 --> 01:25:03.590
out your view of Zirka TTRPG, which is the MOOC

01:25:03.710 --> 01:25:08.109
Pog or Mock Borg? I can never get that name right

01:25:08.109 --> 01:25:13.270
either. Maybe, but they're rules I've not come

01:25:13.270 --> 01:25:14.750
across before, so I'm looking forward to them.

01:25:14.989 --> 01:25:17.109
And of course, Kim, thank you for coming in.

01:25:17.350 --> 01:25:20.470
Please do go check out her podcast. I have got

01:25:20.470 --> 01:25:22.829
your book, your short story collection about

01:25:22.829 --> 01:25:26.109
Odin on my shelf. a slow read, but I will get

01:25:26.109 --> 01:25:27.670
there. And I'm looking forward to letting you

01:25:27.670 --> 01:25:29.390
know what I thought to your story, I'm sure.

01:25:29.449 --> 01:25:31.750
And my books are under KS Barton. I don't know

01:25:31.750 --> 01:25:36.319
why I put him in my box. Don't worry, it's all

01:25:36.319 --> 01:25:38.119
good. But thank you very much for joining me.

01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:40.600
Thanks, it was fun. I appreciate your time. I

01:25:40.600 --> 01:25:42.800
hope you all listeners and viewers can join me

01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:45.819
next time because in March we have Mr Ian Stewart

01:25:45.819 --> 01:25:49.859
Sharpe of the Vikingverse comics, books and TTPRG

01:25:49.859 --> 01:25:51.760
and podcast. Of course we have lots to talk to

01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:54.220
him about. Thank you for listening and watching

01:25:54.220 --> 01:26:13.659
wherever you are. Thank you very much for listening

01:26:13.659 --> 01:26:17.100
to this episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions

01:26:17.100 --> 01:26:20.359
between my special guests and myself. Please

01:26:20.359 --> 01:26:23.079
do check out the episode blurb for links to their

01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:26.000
works and websites. If you liked this episode

01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:28.779
let me know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me

01:26:28.779 --> 01:26:30.899
know if you learned something new in the comments

01:26:30.899 --> 01:26:34.640
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