WEBVTT 00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:21.530 Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill, 00:00:21.969 --> 00:00:24.710 otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky, and I am 00:00:24.710 --> 00:00:27.570 a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the 00:00:27.570 --> 00:00:29.750 history, culture and mythology of the Viking 00:00:29.750 --> 00:00:32.310 Age and I have been on an endless quest for more 00:00:32.310 --> 00:00:36.450 ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:38.609 with those who have been inspired by Viking Age 00:00:38.609 --> 00:00:40.969 history and North mythology in their creative 00:00:40.969 --> 00:00:43.929 works or those who have studied the sagas and 00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:47.039 archaeology and review. how such subjects are 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.200 being presented to modern audiences today. If 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.479 you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla 00:00:53.479 --> 00:01:22.239 and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:25.680 everyone to Valhalla Conversations, my nerdy 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.540 hall where I celebrate and talk about all things 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:31.079 Norse, modern and historical and fantasy and 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:34.719 everything in between. In episode 11, we're finally 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.219 entering the double digits. I'm excited to welcome 00:01:37.219 --> 00:01:40.540 my latest guest, Joshua Gillingham. Welcome Joshua. 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:42.700 Hello, hello. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks 00:01:42.700 --> 00:01:45.359 for having me on. Would you like to introduce 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.439 yourself and your many wonderful Nordic works? 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.959 I would indeed, yes. So my name is Josh Gillingham. 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.640 I'm an author and board game designer. I come 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.359 from the northern realm of Canada. And yeah, 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:00.319 I've loved Vikings for probably longer than I 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:02.579 can remember. I do have some family connections 00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:04.340 to Norway and Sweden. This sort of got me into 00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:06.620 the Norse myths, which led to the Icelandic sagas 00:02:06.620 --> 00:02:09.689 and the rest. as they say is history, literal 00:02:09.689 --> 00:02:12.909 history, and sometimes mythic history. My projects 00:02:12.909 --> 00:02:15.270 mostly focus on Vikings and the Norse myths in 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:17.849 a fantasy setting. So my book series is called 00:02:17.849 --> 00:02:20.330 Tentri Saga and it follows the exploits of a 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:23.430 group of young troll hunters led by Torrin Tentris 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:26.569 in the fantastical realm of Noros where they 00:02:26.569 --> 00:02:29.400 are tasked with defending the realm. from Trolls, 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:30.860 and if you read the series, all sorts of other 00:02:30.860 --> 00:02:34.159 things. It is a lot of fun. Other people's words, 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.699 not mine, has very Hobbit -esque vibes. And so 00:02:37.699 --> 00:02:39.300 you've got the fantasy realm, but it's not like 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:40.740 Game of Thrones or anything like that. It's much 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:43.639 more sort of Tolkien -esque fantasy, rife with 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.139 riddles. So if you love riddles, there's many 00:02:46.139 --> 00:02:48.219 riddles featured in each of the books. And the 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:49.879 third book is actually set to come out soon. 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.159 So I promise I will not pull a Patrick Rothfuss 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:53.780 on you. You will get the third installment of 00:02:53.780 --> 00:02:56.219 the series. It will be finished. And I will not 00:02:56.219 --> 00:02:58.550 leave you waiting forever. I'm also the designer 00:02:58.550 --> 00:03:01.210 of All Thinking One Will Rise, which is a card 00:03:01.210 --> 00:03:03.469 game set in historical Iceland around the height 00:03:03.469 --> 00:03:05.270 of the Viking Age. Every player takes on the 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:07.629 role of a chieftain, and you get to experience 00:03:07.629 --> 00:03:09.590 what it's like to step into that role and vie 00:03:09.590 --> 00:03:14.990 for power and influence amid a group of ruffian 00:03:14.990 --> 00:03:18.370 and cunning warrior Vikings. And so those were 00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:21.110 kind of my two main projects. I've had a few... 00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:23.860 side projects associated with those, including 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:26.479 an expansion to the Althing and One Will Rise 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.159 card game, and a really exciting anthology, which 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.180 was an exploration of the characters in the game's 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:34.340 backstory, as imagined by a bunch of authors 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:37.560 that we invited, most established in the historical 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.000 fiction realm, which was really fun for me because 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.939 I got to edit the book. And another thing that 00:03:42.939 --> 00:03:44.800 was birthed out of that project was one of the 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.099 short stories known as Waverunners written by 00:03:47.099 --> 00:03:50.680 Caitlin Felix was actually then green -lighted 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:52.419 to become a full novelization, which is also 00:03:52.419 --> 00:03:55.020 coming out this year and will be absolutely fantastic. 00:03:55.099 --> 00:03:56.979 I can guarantee you that because I also edited 00:03:56.979 --> 00:03:58.979 that book. And so I got a sneak peek at the full 00:03:58.979 --> 00:04:01.840 range and Katie has just created this incredible 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:06.000 story. Yeah, I get all sorts of behind the curtain 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:07.780 peaks of things, but that's mostly me. So I write 00:04:07.780 --> 00:04:09.889 books, I design games. And they're mostly about 00:04:09.889 --> 00:04:13.969 Vikings. Well, you are definitely welcome in 00:04:13.969 --> 00:04:18.230 my humble little hall. And I am pleased to say, 00:04:18.449 --> 00:04:20.790 dear viewers and listeners, I have all his books, 00:04:20.990 --> 00:04:23.709 both the game and the expansion pack. I've played 00:04:23.709 --> 00:04:26.269 it with my nerdy friends when we go to Comic 00:04:26.269 --> 00:04:29.870 Con. I have read his Gatewatch duo yet to join 00:04:29.870 --> 00:04:32.670 the... have their third one join. And of course, 00:04:32.889 --> 00:04:34.329 Old Thingy, The Crescent and the Northern Star, 00:04:34.430 --> 00:04:36.750 it's a wonderful collection of short stories 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:38.810 depicting the many ways that the Norse might 00:04:38.810 --> 00:04:41.350 have met people of the Middle East and further. 00:04:42.209 --> 00:04:45.529 And of course, there's another book that I'm 00:04:45.529 --> 00:04:47.350 not sure if actually you might have skipped over, 00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:49.889 which was Old Norse for Modern Times, which he 00:04:49.889 --> 00:04:53.490 edited with the wonderful Mr. Vikingverse himself, 00:04:53.750 --> 00:04:56.689 aka Ian Stewart Sharp, who we also have a connection 00:04:56.689 --> 00:04:59.230 with because both me and Josh have been on Mr. 00:04:59.329 --> 00:05:03.100 Stewart Sharp's Vikings and Valkyries real play 00:05:03.100 --> 00:05:07.279 TTRPG game based on his own TTRPG source book 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:11.120 which Ian Stewart wrote. I think kind of like 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:12.879 if you're his protege from the amount of stuff 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:14.879 that he's written compared to what you've written 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:17.839 and edited as well. So yes, they're all wonderful. 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:19.879 And I do highly recommend everyone go buy them, 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:22.139 download them, play with them. Of course, the 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:23.759 kind of games, really. That kind of books, you 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.180 read books, but kind of games, of course. So 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:29.399 I guess the first question that I ask a lot of 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:35.009 my guests is, can you recall when or what first 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:38.730 drew you into Viking culture, history, mythology, 00:05:39.470 --> 00:05:45.019 and all its various aspects. Yeah, so I can point 00:05:45.019 --> 00:05:47.540 to a time. It was first year university. I was 00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:50.399 in that year of exploring myself and figuring 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:52.980 out my identity and who am I in this world. The 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:55.079 track that's been set out for me in grade school 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.199 has come to its end and it was time for me to 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.300 launch. And one of the questions I had was around 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:02.720 family heritage. I just got suddenly this urge 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.019 to dive into family history that I'd never really 00:06:05.019 --> 00:06:06.699 had before. And that's where my parents were 00:06:06.699 --> 00:06:08.399 particularly interested in genealogy. There's 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:10.319 always some family member who's obsessed with 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.579 it and has stacks and stacks of stuff. And so 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:14.879 I became that person and sort of dove into things 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:16.399 and one of the strongest family connections we 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.680 have is to Norway. And so my great grandma was 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.779 from Norway, spoke Norwegian, and then moved 00:06:22.779 --> 00:06:25.360 to Northern Alberta to a town called Valhalla, 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:28.899 which I was born very close to. And then nearby 00:06:28.899 --> 00:06:30.660 a town called Beaver Lodge. So Beaver Lodge, 00:06:30.779 --> 00:06:33.100 the most Canadian sounding name of all time, 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:36.180 and nearby is the farm where they grew up in 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:39.269 Valhalla Community Center. So the Scandinavian 00:06:39.269 --> 00:06:42.149 roots took me to the fourth floor of the university 00:06:42.149 --> 00:06:45.850 library, where I was at, to a dusty, apparently 00:06:45.850 --> 00:06:48.870 unused section of translated Scandinavian texts, 00:06:49.129 --> 00:06:51.170 which I literally had to like wipe a layer of 00:06:51.170 --> 00:06:54.550 dust off of. And I came across things like the 00:06:54.550 --> 00:06:56.430 Icelandic sagas, and I came across things like 00:06:56.430 --> 00:06:58.149 Kevin Crossley Holland's translation of the Norse 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:02.209 myths. And yeah, these just really got me amped. 00:07:02.269 --> 00:07:04.649 They drew me in. People always ask me why. And 00:07:04.649 --> 00:07:08.230 I don't know if I have a answer. to that. It's 00:07:08.230 --> 00:07:10.389 a little bit like the physical mystery of gravity. 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:13.029 It's like we feel its effects, but the physicists 00:07:13.029 --> 00:07:14.829 still struggle to explain what it is exactly, 00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:17.810 right? But yeah, I felt very drawn into it. And 00:07:17.810 --> 00:07:20.029 I didn't start creating right away. I really 00:07:20.029 --> 00:07:22.649 just for two or three years just absorbed everything 00:07:22.649 --> 00:07:26.639 I possibly could. to the point of me finding 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:28.699 a few dilapidated copies that were falling apart 00:07:28.699 --> 00:07:31.040 and begging the library staff to let me just 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:32.339 buy them off of them so I could take care of 00:07:32.339 --> 00:07:33.379 them and they wouldn't fall apart. And they wouldn't 00:07:33.379 --> 00:07:35.720 let me buy them, but I found used versions of 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.639 them other places. I'm thinking about the translation 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.420 of Greta the Strong. I found a copy of that. 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.740 I did secure my own personal copy, but yeah. 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:46.639 And then I think at some point my brain was just 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.420 so full of characters and myths and stories that... 00:07:50.459 --> 00:07:52.860 it was going to explode and it did into what 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:55.180 was eventually to become the Tantry Saga books. 00:07:55.779 --> 00:07:58.660 And so, yeah. yeah and so the gate watch there 00:07:58.660 --> 00:08:00.740 it is that's where i'm holding it up for viewers 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:04.220 listening on audio it is beautiful and i completely 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:07.160 ditto josh's statements about it being Tolkien 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:09.139 -esque i think that's what i described as well 00:08:09.139 --> 00:08:12.259 in my own review when i read them well many years 00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:13.720 ago when i backtracked them because they've been 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:15.500 out for a while now haven't they because they're 00:08:15.500 --> 00:08:18.540 getting they get they're maturing i suppose they 00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:21.339 did uh the first book came out just as the beginning 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:23.699 of COVID struck so my whole book tour was cancelled 00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:26.860 and i had to rejig everything online but Yeah, 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:28.259 I'll always remember when it came out because 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:30.019 it was like literally the first like month or 00:08:30.019 --> 00:08:32.559 two of lockdown which is unfortunate but thankfully 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:35.519 technology and shipping Eventually has allowed 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.980 many people to enjoy it And yeah, the game thing 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:40.919 sort of came in afterwards because I love board 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.159 games as I believe you love board games as well 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:46.279 My original degree is actually also in mathematics, 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.200 like pure mathematics. And so I have a very sort 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.759 of like number oriented brain. And the myths 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:54.399 plus my number oriented brain really found a 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.379 nice place to merge in game design because you've 00:08:57.379 --> 00:08:59.419 got the narrative elements in game design of 00:08:59.419 --> 00:09:01.600 what the roles of the players step into. But 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:03.220 then you've also got this underlying mechanical 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:04.820 structure, mathematical structure of what are 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:06.399 the points and what are the strategies and is 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.200 the game balanced? And those two things really 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.570 drew me in. People often look at me and say, 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:13.049 like, oh, all these random things that you do. 00:09:13.149 --> 00:09:15.090 But to me, it makes total sense. It's like Vikings 00:09:15.090 --> 00:09:17.450 and numbers and games and stories that could 00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:21.830 all just melt together. I mean, I'm just impressed 00:09:21.830 --> 00:09:25.330 because, A, the artwork that you've got, the 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:28.750 illustrations, they're just beautiful. They're 00:09:28.750 --> 00:09:31.950 not kind of insulting or diminutive or stereotypical, 00:09:32.070 --> 00:09:35.289 but they feel very realistic. And I quite like 00:09:35.289 --> 00:09:37.830 that. And it was a very fun game to play with 00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:40.789 my four friends when we used to well for the 00:09:40.789 --> 00:09:42.269 past few years i've been able to meet up with 00:09:42.269 --> 00:09:44.590 them for comic cons this year i couldn't well 00:09:44.590 --> 00:09:46.230 as i did here last year i couldn't because i 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:48.350 was in norway so i'd already spent what money 00:09:48.350 --> 00:09:50.110 i would have spent on comic con in norway so 00:09:50.110 --> 00:09:53.669 that's one that's one yeah yeah but yeah it is 00:09:53.669 --> 00:09:56.309 a lot of fun um all thingy one will rise i do 00:09:56.309 --> 00:09:58.549 recommend it it's perfect for three to four players 00:09:58.549 --> 00:10:01.490 um and it's a nice introduction to what especially 00:10:01.490 --> 00:10:03.990 viking life in iceland is like because not many 00:10:03.990 --> 00:10:05.970 people think of iceland when they think vikings 00:10:05.970 --> 00:10:10.019 which is refreshing i think And it's a lovely 00:10:10.019 --> 00:10:13.059 card set. And so I guess, because I believe it 00:10:13.059 --> 00:10:15.779 was a Kickstarter, was it not? It was indeed. 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.460 Yes, it was. And I've run and feel blessed to 00:10:19.460 --> 00:10:21.059 have run four successful Kickstarters at this 00:10:21.059 --> 00:10:24.159 point in time. One of those with our good friend 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.740 in common, Ian Stewart Sharp, who's the master 00:10:26.740 --> 00:10:29.559 of the Vikingverse. So we ran the translation 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.620 book. And then I also crowdfunded the game, the 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:36.000 expansion, and the anthology as well. Yeah, crowdfunding. 00:10:36.460 --> 00:10:39.460 That's a wild ride. If you like the idea of strapping 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:41.100 yourself to a rocket ship and then just letting 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:43.899 the fuse, then that's kind of the closest experience 00:10:43.899 --> 00:10:47.600 I could sort of compare it to. But yeah, what 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.080 I wanted to do with the game was create like, 00:10:51.220 --> 00:10:52.940 I don't want to be like academic about it, but 00:10:52.940 --> 00:10:54.720 I wanted to create a more authentically historical 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.639 experience for board gamers because there's tons 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.899 of games I love. I love Blood Rage, which is 00:11:00.899 --> 00:11:04.730 a classic board game from Eric Lang. Canadian 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:07.750 board game designer as part of his sort of mythological 00:11:07.750 --> 00:11:10.529 series of games. There's like Champions of Midgard, 00:11:10.730 --> 00:11:12.750 there's a feast for Odin, lots of different ones, 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:14.850 but none of them really can be like captured 00:11:14.850 --> 00:11:17.830 more like the cultural essence of being a Viking 00:11:17.830 --> 00:11:20.750 in a society where, you know, there is a lot 00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:22.830 of violence and there is, you know, ritualized 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:25.070 combat as a way to sort of settle disputes, but 00:11:25.070 --> 00:11:27.500 there's also this strong sense of like... loyalty 00:11:27.500 --> 00:11:30.100 and giving gifts to your followers and this sort 00:11:30.100 --> 00:11:34.279 of political undercurrent that's especially in 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.440 Iceland was present because at the time of the 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:38.879 game and the height of the Viking age, they did 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.860 not have a strict kind of rigid monarchical structure. 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:45.080 It was more not quite a democracy. Some people 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.820 go a little far in terms of. praising how sort 00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:51.980 of equivalently modern Iceland was. It was its 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.059 own culture in its own time, but it did have 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.659 a much more equitable structure in terms of the 00:11:56.659 --> 00:11:59.679 landowners being able to have control of what 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.159 was happening. partly because it was so far off 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:03.460 the map for Europe. A lot of people didn't care 00:12:03.460 --> 00:12:04.559 what was happening over there, and they could 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.799 just do their own thing. But also because there 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:09.019 was some really unique cultural elements of Norse 00:12:09.019 --> 00:12:12.539 society that lent itself to that happening. And 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:15.620 as you know, and folks who are into Vikings might 00:12:15.620 --> 00:12:18.259 know, a lot of the customs, culture, and language 00:12:18.259 --> 00:12:21.440 from the pre -Christian contact Norse societies 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.879 was much better preserved for much longer in 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.360 Iceland, mostly because of its geographical isolation. 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:28.059 There's some political reasons for that, too. 00:12:29.230 --> 00:12:31.110 Yeah, I didn't know how it was going to land. 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:33.470 Sometimes you're nerdy and passionate about something 00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:35.490 and you put it up there and it's just crickets. 00:12:35.789 --> 00:12:38.049 and nobody else seems to be excited about it. 00:12:38.070 --> 00:12:40.470 But I put this out there, and there was just 00:12:40.470 --> 00:12:44.049 this appetite for a kind of a historically set, 00:12:44.470 --> 00:12:46.490 like guaranteed no horned helmets kind of thing, 00:12:46.649 --> 00:12:51.230 right? A Viking game. And there was like, you 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:53.450 were amazing support during that time. And Osaka 00:12:53.450 --> 00:12:55.470 Thing podcast was excited about it too. They 00:12:55.470 --> 00:12:57.129 pumped it up. I think I still have a picture 00:12:57.129 --> 00:12:59.009 of Andy said he took it when he went to Iceland. 00:12:59.029 --> 00:13:00.509 He was like playing it at Thingaveller, like 00:13:00.509 --> 00:13:02.690 in the actual natural park. That just like made 00:13:02.690 --> 00:13:06.299 my day. But yeah, I was amazed and thrilled to 00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:07.360 see that there were so many people that wanted 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.840 to see something like that, too. You mentioned 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.500 the art. The art was done by Lada Shistoba, who 00:13:12.500 --> 00:13:14.700 is an incredible artist to begin with and is 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:17.120 also a Viking reenactor. And so we had many conversations 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.220 going back and forth. She had much more depth 00:13:19.220 --> 00:13:21.620 of knowledge in terms of the styles and the materials. 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.600 But almost every artifact in the game and every 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.860 piece of clothing is based on some either historical 00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:30.399 source or some material that was like known to 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.279 be used by Vikings. And so you'll see a lot of 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:36.559 the like the oval brooches on the women's dresses, 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:40.080 and you'll see sort of the cuts of the men's 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.019 jackets are based on sort of her reenacting experience, 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.840 which I think brought a lot of historical depth 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.820 to the game for people. So, yeah. Yeah, well, 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.000 that easily answers what would be my next question. 00:13:51.220 --> 00:13:54.220 Why pick Iceland, of all places, to model a Viking 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.970 cave? So yeah, it's really insightful. For those 00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:01.129 who kind of like didn't curious about how the 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:05.809 game works you basically become the goatee or 00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:09.350 the leader of a group from four quarters of Iceland. 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:11.669 They've each got their bad points and good points 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:13.669 whether it's like where all the rebels live or 00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:16.029 where the farmers live or where the shipbuilders 00:14:16.029 --> 00:14:19.200 live. And then you have to recruit at this gathering 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:23.100 followers by offering them resources, whether 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:25.960 it's gold arm rings or a bucket, depending on 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.120 what cards are in your hand, so to speak. And 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:29.799 then at the end of the day, because it follows 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:33.440 like a clock of sorts, a morning and an afternoon, 00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:35.940 I think. It's been a while since I played it. 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.200 But at the end of the afternoon in the play setting, 00:14:39.500 --> 00:14:41.460 you then have to pick which followers to fight 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:45.340 against each other and see who wins. But your 00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:47.279 cards always get replenished to some degree. 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:49.360 The following will turn to the next day, depending, 00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:52.440 of course, on your geographical benefits or hindrances, 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:55.799 depending. Because I know one of my friends who 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:58.120 actually won that game, he was very, very clever 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:00.759 with his strategy. Very, very clever. I was like, 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.000 I don't know what I'm doing. That one. No, that 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.840 one. Yeah. But it was fun. It was fun. It's a 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:07.639 learning curve, but it's a really good learning 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.320 curve. And it's informative. And I like how it 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.120 I recognize that sword handle from a museum somewhere. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:19.299 It just feels, if not true, very, very plausible. 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:22.519 Quite the word realistic. Again, it just felt 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.000 very realistic. And I really appreciated that 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.799 aspect. So I think I've only ever played one 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.120 Viking -esque type of board game with some old 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.279 D &D friends. And that was more kind of a resource 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.580 gathering. So you kind of like had to get all 00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:37.840 the fisheries and all the boat builders on board 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.100 and fighting over who gets what resources and 00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:42.500 who has the most resources wins. I'm like, is 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:46.159 that really what it was like? But it was a fun 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:47.500 idea. I can't remember what that was called. 00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:49.659 I've got a feeling it was either Midgard or Valhalla 00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:53.590 or some simplified name of that ilk. But yeah, 00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:57.629 so you did the book first, which was Gatewatch, 00:15:57.950 --> 00:16:00.070 and then was it Old Thing, and then after Old 00:16:00.070 --> 00:16:02.990 Thing, did you then return to Torring Tentreads 00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:06.090 and do the Everspring, which is book two. So 00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:07.629 book two is the Everspring, yeah, and the funny 00:16:07.629 --> 00:16:08.950 story is that when I actually started writing 00:16:08.950 --> 00:16:11.710 the series, the Everspring was actually the book 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:15.740 I started. And for about four years, I was really 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:17.240 stuck on the intro. I wrote the first chapter 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.000 again and again, and I'd drop it for a few months 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:20.940 and come back to it. And what I realized was 00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:22.320 I was actually starting the story in the middle, 00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:24.419 and I had to start at the beginning. And so the 00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:25.779 first book, The Gatewatch, actually began as 00:16:25.779 --> 00:16:28.279 a prologue for what was The Everspring, which 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:29.559 is the book I was trying to write at the beginning. 00:16:30.379 --> 00:16:32.639 And it turned into its own full novel. And it 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.179 stands on its own right. And I love it. It's 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:37.039 still like, go back to read it. It's a ton of 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:39.200 fun. I had this interesting experience that I 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.360 know a lot of authors have expressed, where if 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:42.659 you write a book, four or five years later you 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:44.980 come back to it and you know you wrote it but 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:46.860 you've done so much in between that you know 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:48.159 it's a little bit foggy and then you kind of 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:49.480 get drawn back into the story you're like oh 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.179 like if you really think about it you probably 00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:52.559 remember what happens next but even the phrasing 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.039 and the character surprise you with a joke every 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.700 once in a while you forgot about and it's it's 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:57.360 fun to kind of relive the story it's like almost 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.440 like a good new reader so um so yes the ever 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:02.539 spring came out the timeline of all this is very 00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:04.880 foggy because um as i was talking about before 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.299 the show as we were just chatting here um publication 00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:09.700 is a very very glacial uh industry in some ways 00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:11.779 and it's it's it's just it takes a lot to go 00:17:11.779 --> 00:17:14.799 from manuscript to final draft to publishing 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.259 to shipping to being on your bookshelf. So yeah, 00:17:18.259 --> 00:17:19.819 while this was all happening, I'd written the 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:20.980 Gatewatch. By the time the Gatewatch came out, 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:22.500 I'd actually written the entire Everspring and 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:24.680 submitted it, which was weird, because I was 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.839 excited about the Everspring. So I just finished 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:28.400 it. But everybody else in the world was just 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.519 being introduced to the Gatewatch. So I had to 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.740 go back, read my book again, and just make sure 00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:33.119 I had all the details straight so I could do 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:34.559 book events and stuff like that too, which was 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.579 fun. And then in that time, I also did that, 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:40.329 writing the third book, which is forthcoming 00:17:40.329 --> 00:17:44.930 here soon. And so the game and the book kind 00:17:44.930 --> 00:17:46.930 of became, when stuff was slow for the book, 00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:49.630 I could work on the board game. And then when 00:17:49.630 --> 00:17:50.890 stuff got busy with the board game, I'd kind 00:17:50.890 --> 00:17:52.569 of take my foot off the wheel for the book a 00:17:52.569 --> 00:17:55.390 little bit. So it ended up working out kind of 00:17:55.390 --> 00:17:57.690 a nice rhythm that it could bounce back and forth. 00:17:57.690 --> 00:17:59.069 And it did kind of feel like I was using two 00:17:59.069 --> 00:18:00.569 sides of my brain, like maybe the more narrative 00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:03.390 side and maybe the more numerical side, if you 00:18:03.390 --> 00:18:07.809 want to think of it that way. Creatively, I just 00:18:07.809 --> 00:18:09.470 have this sort of like drive to create things 00:18:09.470 --> 00:18:12.559 and it was nice to finally have a. you know, 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:14.279 a place to kind of funnel all that energy into. 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.539 And the fact that these projects made it to print 00:18:16.539 --> 00:18:19.000 is an absolute miracle. I'm very grateful for 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.900 everybody who contributed along the way, including 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:23.299 editors and publishers and people who just gave 00:18:23.299 --> 00:18:25.000 good reviews and asked about the book and things 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.480 like that and the game, because a lot of people 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:28.880 are trying to publish books and a lot of people 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.039 are trying to publish games. In some ways, it's 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:33.559 easier than ever with self -publishing to do 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:38.279 that, but it's still a long road. the success 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:39.839 that both the book and the game have had. I just 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.079 feel really, really lucky that the Norns wove 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.500 that nice little stitch into my story, because 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:49.359 it's been a pleasure to put that out. Yeah, I 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.059 mean, I was just thinking then, like, when did 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.940 I first come across the Gatewatch? Because I 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:55.779 can't remember if I did or if you found me through 00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:58.019 various networks and said, hey, I have a book 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.119 in my life. Because I have been approached like 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.980 that by many of the people. I think you were 00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:05.099 working, I believe you're associated with the 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.200 Valkyries website, and I think that was initially 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.039 I asked... I had retired, unfortunately, the 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.220 editor. Oh, okay. Yes, I know. Unfortunately, 00:19:13.579 --> 00:19:15.279 we, I think they retired about two years ago 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.740 now. Ah, okay, okay. Unfortunately. I do think 00:19:17.740 --> 00:19:19.859 that was our first contact, but yeah, yeah. And 00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:21.420 then from there we've stayed in touch, it's been 00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.859 awesome. Yeah, yeah. Across the ocean, across 00:19:23.859 --> 00:19:25.859 the world, so. We weren't meant to be in the 00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:28.059 same episode together with Vikings and Valkyries, 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:30.700 but... The Norns twisted fate, so we're now one 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:33.519 episode or two apart. They did. Had a blast, 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:38.099 and I'm still proud of how it just did. The Norns 00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:39.579 in my life at this point in time look very much 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:40.779 like a two and a half year old girl that lives 00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:44.079 in my house. So, yes, yes, yeah. I feel you, 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.259 I have a four year old. Yeah, you know what that's 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:48.619 all about, right? Also a girl, and they are a 00:19:48.619 --> 00:19:51.799 force to be reckoned with. I tried to think that 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.779 I was like that when I was four. There's an Icelandic 00:19:55.779 --> 00:19:57.559 term, it's not coming to my mind, but it translates 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:01.880 to like a fire poker. And it was a complimentary 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.079 term of an Icelandic woman who was just like 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.579 that. And so you wanted to raise a fire poker. 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.539 So anyways, I'm sure it sounds more badass in 00:20:11.539 --> 00:20:14.180 Old Norse. But yeah, I like that. I got a little 00:20:14.180 --> 00:20:18.500 fire poker on my hands here. Well, I was actually 00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:22.299 meaning to ask you. of what old Norse sources 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:25.819 or influences besides of course J .R .R. Tolkien 00:20:25.819 --> 00:20:28.660 himself having plundered Norse mythology for 00:20:28.660 --> 00:20:32.359 the same thing, did you feed in to your books 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.599 The Everspring and The Gatewatch? It's really 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.140 funny to say that because I specifically when 00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:39.259 I was writing the books was trying to not do 00:20:39.259 --> 00:20:42.859 Tolkien and as you correctly pointed out Tolkien 00:20:42.859 --> 00:20:45.339 draws heavily on the Norse myths and so in a 00:20:45.339 --> 00:20:46.880 sense I think a lot of people view him as like 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.319 a primary source for the Norse myth and he really 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:51.400 is like an excellent source but he's really the 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.079 secondary source and a lot of his interpretations 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.799 of especially things like elves and dwarves are 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.220 much different than sort of the more like historically 00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.440 attested Norse cosmology so part of what I was 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:03.759 trying to do is actually kind of like return 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:05.559 to more the primary sources but in doing that 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:07.299 because there is the same source material I think 00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:10.420 people catch the essence of the Norse myths in 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:12.460 both works and so So find them comparable, which, 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.319 I mean, I could not be more pleased to be compared 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:17.279 to Tolkien. That's the highest standard I could 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:18.799 probably hold myself to as a fantasy author. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.039 But yeah, so my original story for the Gatewatch, 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:24.339 which was the Everspring, they kind of turned 00:21:24.339 --> 00:21:27.339 into this epic sort of trilogy, was I was just 00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:33.400 doing a retelling of the Norse myth where they 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:38.579 are on a journey to go... Sorry, my brain here 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:41.319 is seeing the copy. So the Norse myth where Odin 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:43.720 and some of his friends go on an adventure to 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.420 Jotunheim and they are encountering giants and 00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:49.119 then doing all the things they do. And as the 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.380 retelling sort of formed, I wanted to flesh out, 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:53.500 I really enjoyed Kevin Crossley Holland's translation 00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:58.390 of the Norse myths. And as that story of Thor 00:21:58.390 --> 00:22:02.210 and Loki going to travel starts to develop, and 00:22:02.210 --> 00:22:04.150 as I started to fill in the details, it just 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:06.109 sort of grew legs of its own. And so the main 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:08.910 character, as you know, is Thorin, is very similarly 00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:10.529 associated with Odin, so he's got like a sort 00:22:10.529 --> 00:22:14.170 of Odinic traits. Grimsa is a very Thor -like 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:16.490 character. He's probably the most on par with 00:22:16.490 --> 00:22:18.230 one of the Norse myths. And then Bryn in the 00:22:18.230 --> 00:22:21.970 first novel is kind of like a Loki -esque character. 00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:24.349 And so the three characters that just started 00:22:24.349 --> 00:22:26.150 as a simple retelling really started to grow 00:22:26.150 --> 00:22:29.190 from that. And so I think it retains a lot of 00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:33.069 elements of Norse descriptions of the Viking 00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:35.710 world, of Scandinavia at the time, but also their 00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:37.549 imaginations of what Jotunheim might look like, 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:40.029 this mountainous region full of giants and trolls 00:22:40.029 --> 00:22:42.400 and all sorts of other things. And so, yeah, 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:44.519 my intent at the beginning was just to kind of 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.880 celebrate and kind of reimagine and reinvent 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.859 and almost like re -invite folks to sort of like 00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:51.980 experience this magical realm that I had kind 00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:53.579 of discovered in these translated books that 00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:55.119 were collecting dust on the university shelf 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.819 and kind of invite them back into that world. 00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:58.519 And in doing so, I sort of created a world of 00:22:58.519 --> 00:22:59.940 my own. And I think it's been a portal and a 00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:03.099 gateway for folks to rediscover that too and 00:23:03.099 --> 00:23:05.119 maybe see the Norse myths in a different light. 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.470 So it's... One of those things where I still 00:23:10.470 --> 00:23:12.329 get emails like every month or two from somebody 00:23:12.329 --> 00:23:16.069 in random places like Europe or the States or 00:23:16.069 --> 00:23:18.130 like overseas in Australia and that's amazing 00:23:18.130 --> 00:23:20.819 to kind of see. A, that the stories resonated 00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:22.599 with them, but B, there's something about, like 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:23.640 I was saying at the beginning, there's something 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:25.920 about the myths that just really draw you in. 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.599 They're so fascinating. They're dark. These gods 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:31.599 are not perfect beings, obviously. They have 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.420 a lot of flaws. But there's something that just 00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:34.940 keeps us coming back to these stories again and 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:38.039 again. And that's what drew me in. And I think 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:39.619 that's what has drawn readers to the series. 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.380 And I hope it continues the tradition of reinventing 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:45.279 these and breathing new life into them in different 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.119 contexts so folks can continue to enjoy it. Yeah, 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.700 I mean it's making me think back to like the 00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:54.859 very first chapter or so in the Gatewatch where 00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:57.759 Torian and his best buddies are trudging up that 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.839 mountain in the fog and they meet dwarves and 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.819 then the most un -stereotypical dwarf -like dwarves 00:24:03.819 --> 00:24:06.099 you could ever come across and yet they're so, 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:09.299 it's refreshing but it also feels familiar because 00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:12.579 of course I'm familiar with most of the myths, 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:14.279 not all of them, I couldn't quote them by any 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:18.250 means. i know dwarves kind of like they had their 00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:21.109 tricks and their things and they and of course 00:24:21.109 --> 00:24:23.809 they had there's a bit of a riddle and an exchange 00:24:23.809 --> 00:24:26.609 of words and Tony's friends get some gifts try 00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:28.369 not to spoil it too much dear viewers but they 00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:30.230 get some gifts but they're not what they think 00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:32.309 they are and there's always a price to these 00:24:32.309 --> 00:24:35.470 things and yes yes yes it just shows that Loki 00:24:35.470 --> 00:24:38.210 wasn't the only trickster there were i mean Odin 00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:39.750 Odin is the biggest trickster of them all because 00:24:39.750 --> 00:24:41.529 he makes everyone think he's not the trickster 00:24:41.529 --> 00:24:44.569 which i think personally but yeah totally totally 00:24:45.179 --> 00:24:47.920 But yeah, but I absolutely adored the books, 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.299 adored the characters. I remember, I think I 00:24:50.299 --> 00:24:52.619 emailed you after I finished the Everspring for 00:24:52.619 --> 00:24:55.700 back -ending. Oh my goodness, there's a lot of 00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:57.420 drama and tension building in the Everspring. 00:24:57.619 --> 00:24:59.619 But it was all absolutely enjoyable. In fact, 00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:01.539 you're making me want to reread them now. Just 00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:04.940 talking about them because I have them. Well, 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:07.720 if you know the secret to reading time when you've 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:09.799 got a four or a two and a half year old, do let 00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:11.789 me know. I think it's coffee. That's what I got 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:14.750 in my hand right now. It's my meat of poetry 00:25:14.750 --> 00:25:18.630 as it were. Yes. That's the other thing. I absolutely 00:25:18.630 --> 00:25:21.470 fell in love with your feast hall scenes, both 00:25:21.470 --> 00:25:25.210 the food and the drink and kind of like, I think 00:25:25.210 --> 00:25:27.690 it is in the Everspring or maybe at the end of 00:25:27.690 --> 00:25:29.549 the gate shot where they have a big celebration 00:25:29.549 --> 00:25:32.150 for whatever reason and like bring out the most 00:25:32.150 --> 00:25:34.710 luxurious bowls of meat and people get drunk 00:25:34.710 --> 00:25:38.940 and do silly things and it's just fun. absolute 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:41.359 fun and I can feel your enthusiasm and passion 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.940 coming through all of it and it was really, really 00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:49.279 wonderful. I suppose we should touch on Old Norse 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.579 for modern times. Yes indeed, let's do it. Everyone 00:25:51.579 --> 00:25:53.640 should have this on their bookshelf. I personally 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:55.920 haven't quite used it because I know I absolutely 00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.539 butchered pronunciation in I can't speak English 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:04.559 fluently the best of times. So how did that come 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.049 about then? Great question. So there's several 00:26:08.049 --> 00:26:10.710 accounts of a tradition in Norse culture where 00:26:10.710 --> 00:26:13.829 at the Yule feast, people would make boasts. 00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:16.559 and they would go around the room and everybody 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.079 would boast about something that they were going 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:20.660 to kind of achieve that year. And of course, 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.539 not to be overdone by the person next to you, 00:26:22.619 --> 00:26:24.940 these tended to sort of accelerate and get larger 00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:27.599 as you went around the circle and more ambitious. 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.480 And so Harold Finehair is probably the most famous 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:31.500 example of this where he boasts that he will 00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.259 conquer all of Norway and he will not cut his 00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:34.940 hair until he does it to win the hand of the 00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:39.279 Danish king's daughter. And so in a similar fashion, 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.319 Ian had this harebrained idea based on a book 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.349 that he had of humorous Latin translations. So 00:26:46.349 --> 00:26:51.210 it was Latin for things like slam dunk or like 00:26:51.210 --> 00:26:52.769 cowabunga dude, right? Like how you'd say that 00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:56.230 in Latin. And so he said, the world is missing 00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:58.670 this kind of polarity, but in Old Norse. And 00:26:58.670 --> 00:27:01.390 I think we'd be the ones to do it. And so none 00:27:01.390 --> 00:27:04.420 of us had a... deep academic background, but 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:08.559 I obviously had an interest. Both of us had studied 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.700 the language. I've studied Norwegian and was 00:27:10.700 --> 00:27:13.339 somewhat fluent at one point in time. And so 00:27:13.339 --> 00:27:14.559 we drew on that a little bit. And we brought 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.079 in Dr. Arne Grimer -Vedelin from University of 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:19.740 Iceland, who helped us verify some of the translations 00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:23.019 and pronunciations. And then the esteemed Siobhan 00:27:23.019 --> 00:27:25.160 Clark, who hosts the Myths, Legends and Lore 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.700 podcast and narrated significant portions of 00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:29.839 the book for us too. So that was a lot of fun. 00:27:31.199 --> 00:27:33.680 It was neat because it was a bit of a collaborative 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.200 effort on our part and on the part of the backers 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:40.380 because we had a bunch of phrases sort of planned 00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:42.339 out, but there was a chance for backers to also 00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:44.700 contribute phrases. And so it was neat to kind 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:49.059 of just have some fun things translated. So you 00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:52.279 get like ranging from like, you know, no, I am 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.400 your father from Star Wars quote to, you know, 00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:58.579 actual historical quotes from, you know, Odin's 00:27:58.579 --> 00:28:01.519 sayings or, you know, have a mouth or some of 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.000 the myths. So it was a neat project is honestly 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:05.799 was pre COVID. And I do feel like there's this 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:07.259 like barrier in my brain, anything that happened 00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:09.380 for COVID kind of seems like it happened in some 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:12.140 distant imagined past. But it did happen. And 00:28:12.140 --> 00:28:14.519 it's an awesome book. And many copies have sold. 00:28:14.779 --> 00:28:17.170 So and if you were interested in Ian's stuff, 00:28:17.289 --> 00:28:18.910 I also encourage you, there's a whole literal 00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:20.589 universe called the Vikingverse that he's created 00:28:20.589 --> 00:28:24.309 full of books and games and a fantastic RPG, 00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:25.930 which as you mentioned, we had the chance to 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:30.670 go and be featured on. Yes, I second that call. 00:28:30.769 --> 00:28:32.430 Dear listeners and viewers, go to Vikingverse 00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:34.809 .com and I'm pleased to say that I will have 00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.369 Mr. Ian Stewart -Sharp himself on the podcast. 00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:42.720 Fantastic. March. I've got him coming in March. 00:28:42.819 --> 00:28:44.680 That's when we've got the date penciled in. So 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.700 yes. So yes, I'll be grilling him on this book 00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:50.059 and all his many other things as well as his 00:28:50.059 --> 00:28:51.839 podcast, which we feature in. Please go listen 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.599 to that Vikings and Valkyries. Go have fun. It's 00:28:54.599 --> 00:29:05.859 a wild ride. So I guess for you. Because obviously 00:29:05.859 --> 00:29:10.259 book 3 is in the process of coming through, it's 00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:13.140 in the works, have you got anything else lined 00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:16.349 up or do you think you've just... Hit the peak 00:29:16.349 --> 00:29:18.670 of your mountain so to speak. That is a good 00:29:18.670 --> 00:29:20.430 question I've always got something in the works. 00:29:20.789 --> 00:29:25.049 I probably have four games kind of in the background 00:29:25.049 --> 00:29:27.910 that I you know pitch to publishers and May one 00:29:27.910 --> 00:29:30.369 day see the light of day we can hope we'll see 00:29:30.369 --> 00:29:34.009 and That's that's always a bit of a shake -up. 00:29:34.009 --> 00:29:35.970 I design games before I'll think it won't rise 00:29:35.970 --> 00:29:39.089 and I've designed games since and so it would 00:29:39.089 --> 00:29:41.410 be nice to get one of those out at some point 00:29:41.410 --> 00:29:43.529 so I won't say too much more until I find a publisher 00:29:43.529 --> 00:29:45.549 for them because I don't want to creating a sense 00:29:45.549 --> 00:29:47.910 of false hope as it's a bit of like watching 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:49.849 sea turtles trying to get up to the ocean there. 00:29:50.390 --> 00:29:53.210 But I have continued writing projects. I've recently 00:29:53.210 --> 00:29:56.309 been involved in a small press down in Victoria, 00:29:56.390 --> 00:29:58.470 which is close to where I live on Vancouver Island 00:29:58.470 --> 00:30:02.549 here in Canada. And it's run by Shannon Sin, 00:30:02.650 --> 00:30:07.049 who wrote a staggeringly successful book called 00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:10.559 The Haunting of the... Haunting of the Northwest, 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:12.259 I believe. It's about ghost stories from all 00:30:12.259 --> 00:30:15.339 around the Pacific Northwest, mostly focused 00:30:15.339 --> 00:30:17.440 on Canada. And so he started a pressing one to 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.490 feature sort of... folkloric horror fantasy type 00:30:21.490 --> 00:30:25.329 fiction from Western Canadian writers. And so 00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:27.450 I was invited to contribute to the first anthology 00:30:27.450 --> 00:30:29.990 called Black Cat. It's a very cool anthology 00:30:29.990 --> 00:30:34.029 if you are into folklore, which is ghost stories. 00:30:34.730 --> 00:30:36.450 It's all fiction. It's all sort of locally set 00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:38.609 on the West Coast, which is neat. I was invited 00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:41.990 back to edit the second anthology. It's called 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:44.670 That Witch Whispers, and it's a focus, same setting, 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:46.210 so on the Pacific Northwest, but with a focus 00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:48.569 on witches and witch lore. And that was really 00:30:48.569 --> 00:30:50.910 neat to edit. I added that alongside Zoe McKenna, 00:30:51.089 --> 00:30:54.549 who's an amazing author and also editor and reviewer. 00:30:55.230 --> 00:30:58.849 And I also am returning to the third anthology 00:30:58.849 --> 00:31:00.470 as a contributor again. And I've been working 00:31:00.470 --> 00:31:02.450 on a story that is, of course, Viking themed 00:31:02.450 --> 00:31:05.150 and set in Valhalla National Park, or sorry, 00:31:05.210 --> 00:31:06.970 Valhalla Provincial Park, I should say, which 00:31:06.970 --> 00:31:09.200 is an actual provincial park in BC here. And 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:16.180 so you have mountains like Odin's Peak and Gladsheim 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:20.599 and things like that. Interesting. Is there a 00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:23.259 lot of Norse Nordic influence in Canada then? 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.480 Because of course I don't know much about migration 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:28.440 generally, so I've never known of anyone from 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.880 the Scandinavian end going all the way to Canada. 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:32.500 Of course everyone knows of people going over 00:31:32.500 --> 00:31:35.259 to the US, including us Brits. Yep, we put on 00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:37.460 a ship and went over there, but we never think 00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:39.759 much of Canada, I'm ashamed to say, for some 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.490 strange unknown reason. There's a lot of empty 00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:47.190 space up here, which unfortunately can get a 00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:48.809 little bit lonely. But for the most part, we 00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:51.230 do enjoy our space. Yeah, there was a high, high 00:31:51.230 --> 00:31:53.630 volume of Scandinavian settlers. For example, 00:31:53.769 --> 00:31:55.569 my great grandparents who settled in northern 00:31:55.569 --> 00:31:58.869 Alberta. The prairies are very famous. It's sort 00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:01.210 of the middle section of Canada. Fairly flat, 00:32:01.730 --> 00:32:03.369 very arable farmland. The prairies are famous 00:32:03.369 --> 00:32:05.769 for these sort of pockets of cultural communities. 00:32:06.089 --> 00:32:08.029 So to this day, you'll find German -speaking 00:32:08.029 --> 00:32:10.329 communities that speak German first and English 00:32:10.329 --> 00:32:13.089 second. or Russian communities or French communities 00:32:13.089 --> 00:32:14.789 or Polish communities or Ukrainian communities, 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:19.269 you really will find all different types across 00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:22.029 the prairies, which is, it makes for a really 00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:24.549 cool cultural mosaic. But I would say to BC, 00:32:24.890 --> 00:32:26.250 you've been to Norway. You said you went to Norway 00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:27.569 last year. I've been to Norway. It's a beautiful 00:32:27.569 --> 00:32:35.000 country. It was neat to return. The west coast 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.839 of Canada and I've had friends from Norway visiting 00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:38.980 here saying the exact same thing They've never 00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:40.640 been to a place that looks so much like Norway 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.259 The fjords are maybe a little bit steeper in 00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:45.779 Norway But like the the vibe sort of the coastal 00:32:45.779 --> 00:32:48.880 aesthetics or the ruggedness At the mountains 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:50.839 like and the sea right close by side each other 00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:55.220 are very very similar So yeah Yeah. And I think 00:32:55.220 --> 00:32:57.359 Scandinavian influence, you know, this is like 00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:58.839 the whole probably another topic of conversation, 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.619 but, you know, it's a mixed bag, you know, you 00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:03.539 get the good and the bad. I think in the UK, 00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:05.200 you struggle with a similar thing of like, it's 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.720 often co -opted for, you know, nefarious purposes. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.380 But I really view my work as important in trying 00:33:11.380 --> 00:33:14.420 to reclaim the myths and set the narrative on 00:33:14.420 --> 00:33:16.440 a more constructive path, because I found it 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:17.980 so personally rewarding to reconnect with my 00:33:17.980 --> 00:33:20.380 heritage. And it's just as a part of like building 00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:22.759 my self identity and now my family culture now 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:24.789 that I have you know, a daughter. That's been 00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:28.809 really neat. So yeah, yeah, I would say that 00:33:28.809 --> 00:33:34.089 there are historically many towns named after 00:33:34.089 --> 00:33:36.650 Scandinavian places. Gimli in Manitoba holds 00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:39.109 an Icelandic festival that's very famous every 00:33:39.109 --> 00:33:40.690 year. That's kind of the center of Icelandic 00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:42.730 culture, I guess, if you'd want to say, in Canada, 00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:46.250 as far as I know. But really, yeah, especially 00:33:46.250 --> 00:33:48.089 spread across the prairies, you get a lot of 00:33:48.089 --> 00:33:50.880 different Scandinavian communities. there is 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.000 a new Scandinavian bakery that opened up near 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.099 me, which I'm absolutely thrilled about. So I 00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:56.599 will pitch them as well, just in case somebody 00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.640 happens to be around. They're called S'more Bakery 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.460 and Cafe, and they're down in Saanich, which 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:03.720 is another place in the island. Sydney, actually, 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.220 I believe, right in the town of Sydney. And they're 00:34:06.220 --> 00:34:08.599 wonderful. So you don't see as much of the Scandinavian 00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:10.019 culture, I think, on the west coast here as you 00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:13.000 do in the prairies, but it's still present. Yeah, 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.210 those Vikings, they like to travel. They do, 00:34:16.409 --> 00:34:18.630 they do. I mean, it's making me think back to 00:34:18.630 --> 00:34:21.389 the recently finished Vikingsfell Halliseras, 00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:24.289 which of course features Leif Erikson on his 00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:27.510 very, very purely fictional travels in the wrong 00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:30.690 direction on the world before he finally learns 00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:37.389 out how to go west. Canada or is that really 00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:40.349 the northern edge of the U .S. because I can't 00:34:40.349 --> 00:34:42.469 picture it on the map in my head. Yeah Lonsal 00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:44.630 Meadows is like the north tip of Newfoundland 00:34:44.630 --> 00:34:48.190 and given my genealogical research my family 00:34:48.190 --> 00:34:50.610 from the UK originally is Gillingham that's where 00:34:50.610 --> 00:34:52.829 my name comes from settles in Kings Point which 00:34:52.829 --> 00:34:55.110 is also very close to Lonsal Meadows so it's 00:34:55.110 --> 00:34:56.869 sort of the north tip of Newfoundland Labrador 00:34:56.869 --> 00:34:59.570 which is the furthest east province and actually 00:34:59.570 --> 00:35:02.170 Newfoundland is an island off of the coast of 00:35:02.170 --> 00:35:04.780 Canada and is a part of Canada so yeah. Yeah. 00:35:05.059 --> 00:35:06.820 So there's that very celebrated Viking connection. 00:35:06.860 --> 00:35:09.519 There's many claims of Viking finds in the States, 00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:11.900 but none have ever been archaeologically verified. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.920 There are attestations in the sagas about Vinland, 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.739 which most likely, you know, land of wine or 00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:21.260 rich land refers to North America. So there may 00:35:21.260 --> 00:35:23.739 have been landings more in the mainland, but 00:35:23.739 --> 00:35:26.980 Lansalmetas is the only archaeological, archaeologically 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:29.960 confirmed site that Vikings were at. So, yeah. 00:35:30.579 --> 00:35:32.400 It's the biggest joke. I think the Vikings have 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.739 appalled calling Iceland No, Greenland, Greenland, 00:35:36.019 --> 00:35:40.579 when it's mostly ice and snow. Iceland is variable. 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.159 And of course, Vinland, when they found supposedly 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:46.250 great. But I never know whether that's. actually 00:35:46.250 --> 00:35:48.349 in the sagas, or if it's just an urban myth that's 00:35:48.349 --> 00:35:51.489 just been passed down ever since. But it has 00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:53.769 been wonderful talking to you about all this. 00:35:53.869 --> 00:35:56.070 I could carry on, but I know you've got a job 00:35:56.070 --> 00:35:58.090 and I need to get to bed, because we're in difficult 00:35:58.090 --> 00:36:01.550 times. So I'm taking precious time off your working 00:36:01.550 --> 00:36:03.690 day, but I really appreciate you joining in my 00:36:03.690 --> 00:36:06.190 humble whole of Valhalla conversations. And if 00:36:06.190 --> 00:36:07.989 anything, I would like to get you definitely 00:36:07.989 --> 00:36:10.349 in future for when book three does come out in 00:36:10.349 --> 00:36:12.929 the world. I would love to talk about all three 00:36:12.929 --> 00:36:14.909 books and then I can speak about all the spoilers. 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.360 And if anything, I will read them both before 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:20.659 book three comes out definitely. But I wish you 00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:22.320 best of luck with whatever adventures you're 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.860 doing next, whether they're Norse or not. And 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:27.360 thank you again very much for your time. Becky, 00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:29.840 I so appreciate you having me on Tusen tak, as 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.719 they say in Norway. And I look forward to chatting 00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:50.860 again soon. Thank you so much. Thank you very 00:36:50.860 --> 00:36:54.199 much for listening to this episode. I hope you 00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:56.719 enjoyed the discussions between my special guests 00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:00.400 and myself. Please do check out the episode blurb 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.199 for links to their works and websites. If you 00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:05.619 liked this episode let me know by giving it a 00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:08.139 thumbs up. Let me know if you learned something 00:37:08.139 --> 00:37:11.239 new in the comments and of course click subscribe 00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.380 to Valhalla Conversations wherever you are listening 00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:18.039 or watching. This podcast can be watched on YouTube 00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.980 and YouTube Music. and it can also be listened 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:25.159 to on Spotify, Amazon Music, Podcast Intex and 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.219 on RSS .com. We hope you can join us in Valhalla 00:37:29.219 --> 00:37:31.480 again soon for more conversations.