WEBVTT

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Welcome everyone, dear viewers and listeners,

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to the remarkable special episode 10 of my podcast

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Valhalla Conversations, where I, a self -confessed

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Viking geek wanting to know all things North

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in all forms, both historical and modern, basically

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try and interview lots of my favourite authors,

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creatives, academics and everything else in between.

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For this episode, episode 10, I am delighted

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to say that I am joined by Tild Coldholt, the

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author of this wonderful book, Northern Ralph,

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if it's not obscured by my virtual new background,

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because I've relocated to Valhalla, as you can

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see everyone. Northern Ralph, which is the first

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in her trilogy, The Hanged God series, and I

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have read it and I have enjoyed it a lot. I have

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lots of questions. And if you haven't read it,

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get it on your Christmas list pronto. download

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it, borrow it from any good library. They should

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have it in. So to slightly embarrass Tilda, I'm

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going to read her author profile from the back

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of the book, because then I know I'm getting

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my facts right. So I will just read it. OK, so

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it says, Tilda Coldholt is a Viking. traveller

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and a polyglot fluent in Danish, French, English

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and Korean. As a writer she is an avid researcher

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and this is how she first came to row for hours

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upon hours on a Viking warship. We will ask more

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about that later dear viewers and listeners.

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She loved the experience so much that she has

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sailed with the Viking ship the Sea Stallion

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ever since. Awesome name, love that name for

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a ship. Another research trip brought her to

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all corners of South Korea, where she also learned

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the art of traditional Korean archery. Born in

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Denmark, Tilde has lived in many places and countries,

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taking a bit of each culture with her. This is

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why she regards herself as simply being from

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planet Earth, but she has yet to set foot on

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Mars. Noble goals there, Tilde. I hope you get

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there one day. Excuse me, and he is currently

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based in Southern France, where she writes full

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-time, and I know from previous conversations

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he has a vineyard of sorts. So you have quite

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a life already under your belt. Yeah, yeah, it's

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been some busy years. So I guess we'll start

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off with the first question that I ask nearly

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everyone I have on this podcast is, what drew

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you? to Viking history slash mythology in the

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first place? What brought you into the fold of

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my geekiness? It's a good question. For me, I

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think it was the fact that I was born in Denmark,

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but I grew up outside of Denmark. So when I was

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10, I came to live in southern France with my

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family. And when you arrive as a Scandinavian

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in a foreign country, you automatically gain

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the title the Viking. So I obviously became the

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Viking, not really knowing exactly what that

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actually encompassed. And so as I got a bit older,

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I started to get interested to know more. I started

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doing research. And that's kind of what led me

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to Vikings and all things North, because I feel

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like I really found the thing that I connect

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with in Denmark is the Viking culture and that

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ancient worldview. So that was something I could

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hold onto there. And there are so many interesting

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stories and interesting things and facets about

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Vikings that I just had to write about it. So

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that's kind of it. pretty much how it all came

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about. That's wonderful. Well, if there's any

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consolation, my nickname in my group of mum friends,

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because I have a parent, is the Viking, because

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they all know that that's my thing and none of

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them know anything. One of my mum friends was

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like, who's Thor? How do they know about Thor?

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Is he in the books? I'm like, no, no. Oh gosh,

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I don't know how to answer that question. Let

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me get back to you. And then I will answer it.

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Yes, because some of them don't even watch the

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Marvel movies, so that's how distant they are.

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So this is why I do this podcast hill, because

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I need to talk about Vikings with people that

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know about Vikings. Unless no one in my family

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or immediate friends, and definitely not my mum

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network, has that kind of fascination, or at

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least not the level of obsession that I nearly

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have. I'm just borderline obsessed, really. I

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get the feeling, listen, I've been there. and

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it's just nice to connect with people who have

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the same kind of interest and who can bring something

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new because you just talk about things in a different

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way. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I am honoured

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to have you on board and thank you for agreeing

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to do this episode with me. So I guess I'm curious,

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which came first? Was it your experience on the

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Viking longship or was it writing Northern Wrath?

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So it was, it happened simultaneously. So I was

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actually writing Northern Wrath and I was halfway

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through what today is book one. So back when

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I was writing it, book one was actually two books.

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And then later on I combined them into one. So

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I'd just written the first half and I was still

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doing research all the time doing research. And

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so I was taking lots of trips to Denmark where

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my parents still partly lived and I still had

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family up there. And so on one of these research

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trips, I went to the Viking Warship Museum in

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Roskilde and they have reconstructions of different

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Viking ships and one of them is a huge warship

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which biggest reconstructed warship to exist

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and I saw that they were actively sailing it

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and so I thought it'd be cool just to go out

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once I'll see if it's even possible and so I

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looked it up and they said they were looking

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for sailors so I applied and I got in and I became

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a well long -term crew member. So kind of a roundabout

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way while doing research and then the opportunity

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was there. So how many rowers does that warship

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need? So that's a very good question because

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that's actually how we measure the size of a

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warship or a ship is the amount of oars that

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it has. So this is a 60 oar ship. So 30 oars

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on either side. But when we row, we usually row

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on every other oar because it's easier. So that

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would be 30 rowers at once usually when we row.

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Gosh, and were there many other women like yourself

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on board the crew? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

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That's where I was, usually women. I mean, you

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have to have the good technique. If you don't

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have the big muscles, then you have to have the

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good technique and that just means that you go

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further. So yeah, a lot of very, very cool women

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on board, a lot of different kinds of people,

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young people, older people, all kinds of professions,

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all kinds of backgrounds and reasons for being

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there. So it was really... Very Viking, very

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diverse group of people, as it would have been

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in the Viking age when you get aboard a ship

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like that. Wow. Oh, I am actually jealous. But

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then I know that I would be rubbish because this

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is why some people often ask, why don't you do

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Viking reenactment, Rebecca? And I'm like, have

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you seen these pipe cleaner animals? I didn't

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want to be by the fire just null binding and

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cooking all the time but then it's just the amount

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of time and effort that some of these guys and

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I've spoken to a few in my life and the dedication

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they have and also geographically sometimes they're

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like the nearest meeting point for such groups

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isn't near me. Exactly that's my issue as well

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because I have to go all the way to Denmark to

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be part of it right so apparently I don't sail

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with the ships because it's just too far away

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and I don't go to Denmark enough so I can't justify

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it. But at the time, I definitely made a lot

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of time for many years to go as often as I could

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to really be there. If I lived there nearby,

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obviously, it would be every weekend, but it's

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just not feasible. We both just need to win a

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national lottery and just buy a house together

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and just live our dreams. That's what we need

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to do. Exactly. That's what we want all to do.

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Oh, fabulous. So Northern Raft. It is what I

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would call Norse fantasy, which to explain to

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anyone who hasn't heard the coinage of the word

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before, I'm not even sure it's an official term,

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but I use it a lot. It's basically fantasy with

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Norse elements, whether it's Viking age or whether

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it's Norse fantasy, and yours marvelously blends

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a bit of both. Because it has got lots of mythology

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and cedar magic and runes, and I'm trying not

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to split too much. But it's also set in an era

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of Viking A to Z, which I don't think is actually

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featured, or I've not come across it much in

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terms of other popular culture modern mediums,

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which is of course the rise of Harold Bluetooth.

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So would you mind giving our viewers and listeners

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a brief recap of who Harold Bluetooth is and

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why we should know about him? Obviously, so Harold

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Bluetooth is a very well -known figure in Denmark

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even today. He is today considered the first

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king of Denmark, the first real king. And he

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is the person who is credited as Christianing

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the Danes, so as changing their religion, which

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today is used as a very positive thing. But in

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my book, Northern Wrath, I can't say I'm exactly

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on his side. So I take a bit of a different approach.

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So I think for a lot of Danes, the portrayal

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of him is quite shocking and different. because

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he's a very well -known figure that we learn

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about in history classes today in Denmark as

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well. So he is considered a hero for saving Denmark,

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for uniting the land, for Christianing it and

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being its first real original king. And I take

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a bit of a different view in Northern Wrath in

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that, well, if you Christianed all of the Danes,

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then you're basically taking their freedom of

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religion away from them. Is that always positive?

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I don't think so. And the way that he went about

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certain things, when you actually look at the

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facts, I think are a bit questionable. So my

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portrayal of him is a bit different from what

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we usually see in history classes in Denmark.

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And that's a big reason why I wrote about him.

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So I remember being a kid before I was so until

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I was 10, I was educated in Denmark. And I remember

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learning about her Bluetooth when I was eight

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or something like that, and having a visceral

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reaction. to hearing about Bluetooth, feeling

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like, oh, why is he portrayed as a hero? He took

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their freedoms away. He made it easier to invade

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the lands. What happened? Their culture disappeared

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very soon after that. So when I started researching

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Vikings, that memory sparked up again, and I

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started looking further into it. And yeah, that's

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kind of why I decided to set it in this era.

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I think it's always interesting when you see

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a shift. It will be a big religious or cultural

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shift, and that is definitely what happened during

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Herald Bluetooth time. We are seeing Vikings

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who were very Norse and had their set of traditions

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and culture and believed in their gods go from

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this to becoming Christian in a very short period.

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Obviously, it was something that happened over

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a long time, but the shift is very noticeable

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during Herald Bluetooth time. So I was quite

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interested by that. Yeah, that's a really interesting

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take on it. especially because I know coming

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from the UK side of course we had lots of Danish

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and Norwegian and probably some Sweden of course

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they weren't these nations that exist back when

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they started coming over and settling among us

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but it was kind of a process of assimilation

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that where they willingly took on the Christian

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type aspects because they helped with their trade

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or their wife was Christian or their daughter

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married a Christian that kind of thing where

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a tile bluetooth was kind of telling them all

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off like I know. You shall stop watching, and

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you shall now worship the one God, and I'll be

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king of you all, kind of thing. So yes, because

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it's a guy I've not read about much in non -fiction.

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Certainly, I don't think I've come across him

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much in any other of my historical fiction books.

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Noob, I think, in my book sales, and pretty much

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they're all either before or after his time.

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So it's quite refreshing to come across another

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new figure in historical fiction. And of course,

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you've blended, you've brought their world view

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to life wonderfully. with the elements of Norse

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mythology and fantasy coming through. And I would

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like to say that you set off the ground running

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with that beautiful short interdiction prologue

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of a chapter with, of course, one of the, one,

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there's many, many characters in this book, dear

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viewers and listeners. It's a wonderful tapestry

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of characters and their storylines blend and

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weave in. absolute perfection, there's no getting

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confusion at all, it's really well written, is

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Einar, who it turns out to have a bit of a berserker

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streak inside him. And I like how you explore

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that coming through. There's not just kind of

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like a mushroom powered frenzy, but something

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of a divine spark inside him, which is lately

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later explored a bit and answered a bit more

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definitely by the end of Northern Attica. Yes,

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definitely, definitely. I think that touches

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on like a key thing about this book for me is

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that it started as historical fiction and then

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I started to realize I couldn't write about the

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Vikings without writing about the gods because

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it was such a big part of who they were and how

00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.740
they viewed the world. So if they didn't fully

00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:26.019
believe in it. it wasn't going to work. And in

00:13:26.019 --> 00:13:27.799
fully believing in the gods and writing them

00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:30.019
as such, the gods started to appear in the text

00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:31.700
and the magic started to appear in the text.

00:13:31.779 --> 00:13:34.159
And then I knew I was off in a historical fantasy

00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.519
world now. So I might as well just commit and

00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:38.879
bring the gods in and have a little chat with

00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.320
them. So, yeah, that's a lot of those elements

00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.960
like the Berserker elements do have a cultural

00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:48.649
part as well. that comes, I think, partly from

00:13:48.649 --> 00:13:50.490
the religion. So that's something I definitely

00:13:50.490 --> 00:13:52.629
want to drive in as well, to have that magical

00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:57.590
component be part of it. Yeah, you've done something

00:13:57.590 --> 00:14:01.649
really nice with the mythology that I like and

00:14:01.649 --> 00:14:04.470
love and adore in Northern Wrath, especially

00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:06.889
when you're dealing with the subject without

00:14:06.889 --> 00:14:10.610
spoiling it too much, of mortals that either

00:14:10.610 --> 00:14:13.389
maybe not mortal as they appear, or have some

00:14:13.389 --> 00:14:17.769
kind of heritage linked to the other beings of

00:14:17.769 --> 00:14:20.529
the nine worlds. And that's not quite a demi

00:14:20.529 --> 00:14:23.509
-god, but not quite demi -mortal kind of aspect.

00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:27.309
Because there's another fascinating character

00:14:27.309 --> 00:14:29.950
in there, which is called Hilda? Yeah, Hilda.

00:14:31.009 --> 00:14:36.029
And she is what many like to believe is more

00:14:36.029 --> 00:14:38.870
common now. It is, of course, a young woman.

00:14:39.049 --> 00:14:41.529
of Danish heritage wanting to take up the sword

00:14:41.529 --> 00:14:43.990
the axe the shield and get involved with all

00:14:43.990 --> 00:14:45.570
the men because of course it's still an issue

00:14:45.570 --> 00:14:49.490
of this academic debate but I'm academic so I

00:14:49.490 --> 00:14:53.230
can say what I like to a degree no one can quote

00:14:53.230 --> 00:14:55.629
me on it well you can quote me but I'll say that's

00:14:55.629 --> 00:14:58.129
what I believe and I like how you've presented

00:14:58.129 --> 00:15:01.039
that quite well especially with her her father,

00:15:01.179 --> 00:15:03.639
who is another figure which has a very, very

00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:06.120
interesting storyline, which is her father, Raghda,

00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:10.639
who is a bit of a skull, the storyteller. And

00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:14.279
his initial introduction as being like, no, Hilda,

00:15:14.419 --> 00:15:15.899
you will stay at home, you will not go in the

00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:18.000
rain, so I will not have you doing this. And

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.480
it's that whole issue of a woman trying to find

00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:23.799
her place in the world with what she wants compared

00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.419
to what society and, of course, the hierarchy

00:15:26.419 --> 00:15:30.320
of the masculine. telling her what to do. So

00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.820
I like how you kind of started quite hot, not

00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:35.179
just with Einar's storyline, but with hers as

00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:39.860
well. Yeah, thank you. I think for Hilda as well,

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.259
and for Rakinah for their dynamic, I think her

00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:44.799
father is scared of seeing her die. And that

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.200
is actually his main... reason for opposing her

00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:50.200
going off. He's afraid of being alone all of

00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.019
a sudden because her mother is no longer around.

00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:54.360
She had a brother who's no longer around. He's

00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.080
scared of now being possibly all alone. So he's

00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.980
very visceral in his reaction. And he, you can

00:15:59.980 --> 00:16:02.519
say, kind of blocks her in every way that he

00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.539
can because he's quite influential. So he makes

00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:06.480
people promise that they won't take her. And

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.919
she obviously thinks it's her right, which if

00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.360
you believe in a society where women fighters

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.399
were around, it's as much her right as it's a

00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:19.350
man's right. So for her it's a completely fraught

00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:22.129
view of the world that kind of goes a bit with

00:16:22.129 --> 00:16:24.250
the new wave of Christianity that's driving through

00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:25.850
that definitely does not want her to go on raids

00:16:25.850 --> 00:16:27.470
because you're a woman and you shouldn't be on

00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:30.529
raids. So it is a bit of that early conflict

00:16:30.529 --> 00:16:32.529
coming in, so both the religious conflict and

00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:37.210
also the familiar context of, well, Ragnar is

00:16:37.210 --> 00:16:39.110
just terrified and he will use any means and

00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:41.470
any reason to keep her away from it and he'll

00:16:41.470 --> 00:16:46.159
think this is completely unfair. It is bringing

00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:49.639
in the family dynamic, but also introducing the

00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.820
cultural elements of this clash of periods where

00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:55.620
something that used to be normal, even just the

00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:57.759
fact of being a raider, being a warrior, used

00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.360
to be much more common. And doing the period

00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:02.179
of Northern Wrath is already starting to be a

00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:04.700
profession that's not that relevant anymore,

00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.299
that doesn't really pay, it's difficult, why

00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:10.279
would you even do this? And so finding herself

00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.109
trying to... become it, become a warrior and

00:17:14.109 --> 00:17:16.750
keep this tradition alive but against the clash

00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:19.589
of a of a changing culture and a changing time.

00:17:21.069 --> 00:17:24.329
Well I really liked her and she has I think the

00:17:24.329 --> 00:17:27.549
most remarkable storyline I've ever come across

00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:34.279
in Northern Wrath and at points you explore different

00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:36.460
aspects of the mythology will be the Vikings,

00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:38.480
again in ways that have not come across in the

00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.180
books, especially in terms of how they viewed

00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:46.619
aspects of themselves, like like, the way I'm

00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:47.859
going to describe it for viewers and listeners

00:17:47.859 --> 00:17:50.299
is think of Philip Pullman's Northern Lights

00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:54.420
series where in Lyra? Lyra, one of the two names.

00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:57.440
I always get confused. She has like a spirit

00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.099
animal that mimics herself and in this book you

00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:03.339
have a character that develops that ability to

00:18:03.339 --> 00:18:06.420
see and in some ways dominate, interestingly

00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:09.519
enough, their spirit animals. So would you like

00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.480
to tell us more about that? So this came out

00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:14.500
of all of my research about mythology. So the

00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:16.660
Vikings did believe in the concept that we today

00:18:16.660 --> 00:18:18.720
would probably call spirit animals. For them,

00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:22.619
it was called fylgjur or fylgja. And it said

00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:26.059
that your fylgja is like your luck. So it comes

00:18:26.059 --> 00:18:28.779
to warn you in dangerous situations. So to see

00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:30.400
it is not always a positive thing. It can be

00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.039
a warning that danger is coming. Watch out. They

00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:35.519
also had a different kind of spirit animal that

00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:37.119
they would see in their dreams. It's not necessarily

00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.079
the same one. But fylgur are kind of related

00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.259
to the bloodline as well because they're often

00:18:42.259 --> 00:18:45.460
inherited. So they're often an ancestors fylgur

00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:47.799
that you then get. So this also comes up in Odin's

00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:49.819
wrath. So when I was doing research, I didn't

00:18:49.819 --> 00:18:51.500
find a lot on it, but I found enough where I

00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:53.359
was like, I have to include this because so many

00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.640
of the gods also talk about us having animals

00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.779
with them. Flyers is talked about as always having

00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:01.740
cats around. Obviously we have Odin with his

00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:03.660
ravens and his two wolves. I was like, there's

00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:05.559
something here that I think I could explore and

00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:07.299
it would be really fun and interesting to do.

00:19:08.549 --> 00:19:11.450
So, yeah, it came up organically as I was writing

00:19:11.450 --> 00:19:13.930
Hilda. I was writing a scene that no longer exists

00:19:13.930 --> 00:19:17.170
in the book, but she was basically being chased.

00:19:17.670 --> 00:19:20.029
And the reason that she knew that she was in

00:19:20.029 --> 00:19:21.490
danger was because she saw her flukie for the

00:19:21.490 --> 00:19:26.089
first time. And so it kind of sparked from that

00:19:26.089 --> 00:19:28.150
and her flukie kept popping up. And then when

00:19:28.150 --> 00:19:30.970
I went through, I added more scenes with it and

00:19:30.970 --> 00:19:36.099
it became an integral part of the story. It's

00:19:36.099 --> 00:19:38.160
remarkable, especially the twist at the end.

00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:43.059
It put my heart in my mouth. But yes, that's

00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:44.700
all I'm going to say because I don't want to

00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:46.539
spoil it. That one actually. So without giving

00:19:46.539 --> 00:19:50.019
away what the twist is, I think the reason that

00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:51.660
one is in there is actually because of Odin.

00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.099
So when you read about Odin and his wolves, it

00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:56.720
says that the wolves eat for Odin that he never

00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:01.099
eats for himself. Interesting. Yeah. So that

00:20:01.099 --> 00:20:02.759
kind of sparked the idea in my mind. I was like,

00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.940
hmm. Maybe there's something here and yeah Well,

00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.160
you do like in all in the many nonfiction books

00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.500
I've read and I've still got lots more she says

00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:16.079
looking at a very full bookcase and It always

00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.299
any depictions of Valhalla You certainly always

00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:21.220
hear the Valkyries providing like meat and mead

00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:23.019
for the warriors But you never really hear about

00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:25.910
the gods being served and what the gods apart

00:20:25.910 --> 00:20:28.069
from Eden's apples, of course, because that keeps

00:20:28.069 --> 00:20:31.509
them eternally young. You do have the tale where,

00:20:31.509 --> 00:20:33.670
Locus Aena, where they're eating at Aegis Hall

00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:36.369
and they're - Oh, what? Yes! We do eat together,

00:20:36.470 --> 00:20:38.869
but we don't necessarily hear them eat around

00:20:38.869 --> 00:20:41.410
mortals or around, you know, the dead warriors

00:20:41.410 --> 00:20:43.789
or something else like that, yeah. You make me

00:20:43.789 --> 00:20:45.549
think now, of course they do eat because, of

00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:47.410
course, we have the whole saga of Fafnir and

00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:50.109
Regin and they're killing the otter to then eat

00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:56.170
it and then when they encounter Scadi's Yes,

00:20:56.269 --> 00:20:59.150
Cathy's dad, I forgot his name, but he kept making

00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:01.089
the fire too cold so that meat wouldn't cook.

00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:03.789
Gosh, yes, that is a really interesting thing.

00:21:04.089 --> 00:21:05.829
That should be a topic of research. Someone should

00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:08.190
research food in the garden. Which is why I think

00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:11.150
it's even more interesting that it's like two

00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:13.970
places that I saw it was written that Odin, that

00:21:13.970 --> 00:21:15.670
his wolves eat for him. I thought, hmm, that's

00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:18.049
an interesting point. And I will definitely come

00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:25.279
back. Yeah. Wow. Well, speaking of other beings

00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.180
and we've talked about the gods and Flüge and

00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:31.759
the spirit animals, you do a wonderful almost

00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.400
deep dive into a remarkable cultured psyche that

00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.539
you've made not just for the dwarves but for

00:21:37.539 --> 00:21:40.660
the giants in Northern Wrath and I really like

00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:44.339
how you've depicted them not as the big brutes

00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:47.480
but actually kind of like a very clever and intelligent

00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.640
structured society and the dwarves themselves

00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.529
I find fascinating. Especially there's one scene

00:21:55.529 --> 00:21:58.250
where there's one giant and one dwarf who meets

00:21:58.250 --> 00:22:00.609
one of the other characters. There's a lot of

00:22:00.609 --> 00:22:02.230
characters in this book. I'm not going to name

00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:04.809
names as far as, but they meet them in a certain

00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:06.990
underground environment. There's almost a bit

00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:11.890
of a a Smeagol and Bilbo exchange of oaths and

00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:16.029
riddles. I love that. I thought that that feels

00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:18.769
so Norse in itself. Just kind of like making

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:22.869
one's oath or literally and binding it just by

00:22:22.869 --> 00:22:25.390
saying it out loud, as well as the aspect of

00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:28.069
names and identity and heritage. I thought that

00:22:28.069 --> 00:22:30.549
was really well done. Thank you. I think a lot

00:22:30.549 --> 00:22:33.269
of those kinds of scenes also come from just...

00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.779
the memories I have from my childhood and the

00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.519
north stories that we used to hear and that I

00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.720
really connected with. Like the passage graves

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.700
come up quite a lot and there's so many of them

00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.420
across Denmark and there used to be even more

00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:48.460
a lot of them have been ploughed away by farmers

00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:50.920
over the years but there used to be so many of

00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:52.579
them and there's still a lot when you go around

00:22:52.579 --> 00:22:55.319
out in the in the countryside and just see nature

00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.369
you'll see these. sudden grave mounds everywhere,

00:22:58.529 --> 00:23:01.250
and a lot of them do have passages. So that's

00:23:01.250 --> 00:23:04.009
something that definitely came up a lot. So the

00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:08.329
environment and then just the tone of it. Because

00:23:08.329 --> 00:23:10.670
a lot of the stories that I got told as a child

00:23:10.670 --> 00:23:12.569
were troll stories and things like that, that

00:23:12.569 --> 00:23:15.390
do have origins in Norse stories. So when you

00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:17.690
go back and look at the old Poetic Edda or things

00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:20.630
like that, you see, oh wait, I know a modern

00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:22.970
version of this that I was told years later,

00:23:23.349 --> 00:23:25.609
but it actually originated with the Vikings.

00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.279
with the Norse mythology and all of that. And

00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:30.240
the dwarves and the way they're treated in Norse

00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.240
mythology definitely comes from that. I have

00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.000
a lot of stories of those when I was a kid. Trolls,

00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:38.740
which are commonly referred as the Jotun, one

00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:41.700
aspect of Jotun. A lot of stories about trolls

00:23:41.700 --> 00:23:44.640
today in Denmark as well. So that also came back

00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.880
a lot of them from the old stories of Norse mythology.

00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:52.480
Well, having recently... had a bit of a dream

00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.279
experience in Norway at the Mari Symposium. When

00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:58.500
I was in the airport in Stavanger waiting to

00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:01.940
fly home, I bought my child a book called The

00:24:01.940 --> 00:24:04.700
Little Troll and we read it over a number of

00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:07.799
nights because it's possibly too long to read

00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:09.779
to her in one sitting, but she enjoyed it. I

00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:11.339
kind of always made a bit of a cliffhanger when

00:24:11.339 --> 00:24:13.460
we edited it, but there's a point where it comes

00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:16.619
across a troll with three heads and one eye and

00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:18.779
they swap them between them. I thought this feels

00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:21.420
so much like the Norns blended with the fates

00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:24.579
from Greek mythology. It was so interesting.

00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:26.579
And there was a weird scene where there was a

00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:29.000
troll waiting to catch a train in the hope of

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.160
saving a princess who would fall off the train.

00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:38.200
OK, fair enough. That's cool. Definitely more

00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:40.720
Norway, but all across Scandinavia and the Nordics,

00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:42.920
I think trolls are very big. And a lot of them

00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:46.500
do come back to stories about Jotun. And I think,

00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.269
I mean, you mentioned Smearval. Tolkien has a

00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:53.009
lot, in a lot of his stories, he has things that

00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:55.309
originate from back then. For example, the trolls

00:24:55.309 --> 00:24:57.990
in his stories in The Hobbit, that turn to stone

00:24:57.990 --> 00:25:00.710
when the sunrise comes up, that's a traditional

00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:03.069
Norse story about Thor speaking to a dwarf, and

00:25:03.069 --> 00:25:05.890
the dwarf turns to stone when the sun comes up.

00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:08.849
So I reference that story, but yeah, that's an

00:25:08.849 --> 00:25:10.650
ability that's usually associated with dwarfs

00:25:10.650 --> 00:25:17.170
in Norse mythology. Well, speaking of... dwarves,

00:25:17.309 --> 00:25:19.650
there is a point where a particular character,

00:25:19.750 --> 00:25:22.670
I'm not going to say his name, has to free a

00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:28.849
dwarf from petrification and he meets a very

00:25:28.849 --> 00:25:31.549
interesting character which I can only describe

00:25:31.549 --> 00:25:34.990
as being more akin to a vulva. Would you agree

00:25:34.990 --> 00:25:39.730
with that? Yes, yes. So what's your take on vulvas

00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:42.690
and how did you decide to weave them into your

00:25:42.690 --> 00:25:50.619
story? Yeah, so good question. I decided, because

00:25:50.619 --> 00:25:54.339
when you read the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda,

00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:56.819
they always prefer to the vulva, as if there's

00:25:56.819 --> 00:25:59.319
only one. But obviously, when we talk about vulva

00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:01.890
today, we also talk about practitioners of saved

00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:05.930
magic, so people who were maybe referred to as,

00:26:05.930 --> 00:26:08.609
what would you say, magicians or something like

00:26:08.609 --> 00:26:12.250
that today in modern terms. Witch is the modern

00:26:12.250 --> 00:26:14.230
term I've come across, basically describes a

00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:16.349
North Witch, but I could be wrong. Yeah, yeah,

00:26:16.390 --> 00:26:18.130
North Witch probably. Yeah, probably what you

00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:20.809
would call it in modern terms. The word witch

00:26:20.809 --> 00:26:23.109
didn't feel quite right to me personally, but

00:26:23.109 --> 00:26:25.230
I definitely wanted to make the distinction between

00:26:25.230 --> 00:26:29.079
the one that the gods have relations to. and

00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:31.819
the ones that everyday people would go to for

00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:35.720
advice or for special runes to help them heal

00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:39.180
or something like that. So I made that distinction

00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:41.099
by calling them a different name. So I called

00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:44.740
the human ones Rune Mistresses and then the other

00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:48.579
ones Vulva. But basically they were petitioners

00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:53.059
of runic magic. And the Vulva, yeah, exactly,

00:26:53.259 --> 00:26:56.130
would be... would be probably the biggest one

00:26:56.130 --> 00:26:59.970
since she services the gods primarily, and also

00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:02.509
mentioned one of the characters when he is in

00:27:02.509 --> 00:27:04.809
need of special healing, I think you could say,

00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:11.829
in order to help him. So that is a component

00:27:11.829 --> 00:27:16.329
that I think is the main protection of magic.

00:27:16.710 --> 00:27:18.910
It's important to understand where that comes

00:27:18.910 --> 00:27:20.609
from and that it's part of everyday life for

00:27:20.609 --> 00:27:24.460
a Viking, but also for the gods. Vikings do with

00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:26.460
what they see in the gods. So what the gods do,

00:27:26.619 --> 00:27:29.859
they will do a version of. So I still wanted

00:27:29.859 --> 00:27:31.680
to keep the distinction. So yeah, you're right

00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.480
to that. That's very good. I completely forgot

00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.640
about the room mistress because she is also a

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.779
really fascinating character. You don't see her

00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:43.140
that much, but yeah, she's there. All fascinating.

00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:44.859
I don't think there's a character we don't meet

00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:49.059
that isn't fascinating. Even to talk about one

00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:53.099
of, I guess, kind of like the lesser. basically

00:27:53.099 --> 00:27:55.160
kind of like the cast behind the prime cast.

00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:57.000
I was going to say he's the character of Finn

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.940
because of course you think oh he's going to

00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:01.599
become the heartthrob of the story but actually

00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.059
he doesn't and the way you take his journey especially

00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:09.859
near the end because of course there is a big

00:28:09.859 --> 00:28:12.980
siege slash battle near the end of the book and

00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:15.829
would you mind describing the location and what

00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:19.809
it's meaning is historically. Of course, so actually

00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:22.789
Northern Wrath is based on true history in that

00:28:22.789 --> 00:28:27.869
in the year approximately 967, so I say approximately

00:28:27.869 --> 00:28:31.109
because there's some debate who put that date

00:28:31.109 --> 00:28:33.009
down and who didn't and whether we can believe

00:28:33.009 --> 00:28:34.849
him or not, but there are several accounts of

00:28:34.849 --> 00:28:38.099
it. there had been a lot of conflicts between

00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:41.660
the south, so you can say northern Germany, and

00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:44.420
the Scandinavian countries, because the Vikings

00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:49.000
would raid the coast. And obviously the southern

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.720
kings did not appreciate this, and so eventually

00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.460
during one summer, as most of the warriors, the

00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:59.440
Viking warriors, were away, they sent, the southern

00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:04.440
kings sent southerners up. warriors to sack the

00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:07.140
villages in Scandinavia. And they got all the

00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.980
way up to the top of Jutland and then got basically

00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:14.039
beaten down by herald lusus it said all the way

00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:16.059
down to the frontier and it said that when herald

00:29:16.059 --> 00:29:18.900
crossed the frontiers he was now in foreign territory

00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:21.240
and he suddenly saw the light of Christ and became

00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:26.910
Christian. as if by magic and he returned home

00:29:26.910 --> 00:29:28.950
and Christianized everything and yeah everyone

00:29:28.950 --> 00:29:31.049
was happy. That's basically how the story goes

00:29:31.049 --> 00:29:34.289
in very basic terms. But so I base the whole

00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:36.950
story on this principle that the warriors are

00:29:36.950 --> 00:29:40.250
way and so that's the opening is that the warriors

00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:43.069
are way and the city gets sacked, the village

00:29:43.069 --> 00:29:46.089
gets raided and everything kind of starts from

00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:50.170
that point on. Definitely. Yeah and then I take

00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:53.980
them So for a revenge raid, you can say, down

00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:58.039
to the south. So in Germany, where there are

00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:00.079
many cities along rivers, where we know that

00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.839
Vikings have been, whether they were there that

00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.380
year or not, no one can say, but no one can deny

00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:09.079
either. So let's play with the history. So yeah,

00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.740
that's basically the story. So it all stems from

00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:14.680
a real historical event. And then I guess you

00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.519
can say my wishful thinking, because no one can

00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.569
prove what didn't happen. but I hope that there

00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:23.210
would be some kind of response and so that's

00:30:23.210 --> 00:30:25.630
that's kind of what I would think how I think

00:30:25.630 --> 00:30:27.349
I would think a Viking or a Norse person in that

00:30:27.349 --> 00:30:30.509
situation would react yes we need to honor the

00:30:30.509 --> 00:30:33.869
debt and how do we do that and so yeah that's

00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:36.490
kind of where the whole story stems from well

00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:39.309
it totally fits I mean I'm thinking back to when

00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:42.509
Swain Fortbeard heard about his cousin or niece

00:30:42.509 --> 00:30:45.569
being killed when I thought I decided to exterminate

00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:48.779
all Danes And then, of course, he came over and

00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:53.099
that's how we came up with King Canoop. So what's

00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.400
the name of the city on the coast that they try

00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.180
and get into? Yeah, it's Magdeburg. So it's Magdeburg.

00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:07.319
I didn't want to babble. To be fair, I use the

00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:10.259
North way of saying it. So I write it the way

00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:16.140
that they used to write it down. Very good. Well,

00:31:16.299 --> 00:31:21.759
there is That entire battle is, it feels very

00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.980
much like I'm watching a movie scene. It's described

00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:27.380
and captured brilliantly, both kind of like the

00:31:27.380 --> 00:31:29.319
close -up shots when you're really close to the

00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:30.559
characters and then kind of like in a broader

00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:34.079
view. And of course, that's quite near the end

00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:38.380
where a lot of things happen. But between all

00:31:38.380 --> 00:31:40.579
this happening in the realm of Midgard, you do

00:31:40.579 --> 00:31:43.779
have one character, and I'm not going to spoil

00:31:43.779 --> 00:31:49.380
it by saying his name, it's a he. They are stuck

00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.619
in a really interesting place which is very much

00:31:51.619 --> 00:31:59.099
between realms. I'm gonna have to say this because

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:03.700
I can't not say it but the way he finds himself

00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:08.660
in an area of pitch blackness, nothing and if

00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:11.859
he makes the slightest sound he gets killed in

00:32:11.859 --> 00:32:13.799
a hundred different ways, and he must have been,

00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.500
there were a hundred different ways by the end

00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:18.119
of this book. I thought, how many times have

00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:19.859
we had to think, okay, how can I kill him now?

00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.339
How can I kill him now? How can I kill him? Every

00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:24.119
time it was a problem, and sometimes he would

00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:25.640
die like three times in a chapter and be like,

00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:27.420
oh no, I have to come up with another way now.

00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.400
But that's the challenge of it. So yeah. Did

00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:34.799
you have that in mind for having him in that

00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.720
experience of being between the realms in a very

00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.960
not nice dimension, we can literally say, or

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.380
did it come quite organically? Came as with many

00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:47.319
things quite organically. So what happened in

00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:49.960
this situation is actually I'd written what used

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.220
to be the first book and I needed a different

00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:54.980
kind of opening and I couldn't figure out what

00:32:54.980 --> 00:32:57.720
the opening should be. And on Christmas Day,

00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:01.960
actually, some years back, I all of a sudden

00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:04.500
got the spark of an idea and I wrote the first

00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:08.619
darkness chapter. So, yeah. And realized that

00:33:08.619 --> 00:33:10.700
there was a whole journey here that was unexplored

00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:13.900
and that I needed to put into the story and that

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:17.700
would help tell the larger story throughout the

00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:20.839
volumes. And so, yeah, that's basically where

00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:24.000
it came from. And I think it came from this...

00:33:24.029 --> 00:33:26.849
fear that most people have that when you die,

00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:30.309
there's nothing. What if there is nothing? And

00:33:30.309 --> 00:33:33.069
Ragnar, he's a scholar. Now I've said his name.

00:33:33.130 --> 00:33:35.730
I'm sorry, I've spoiled it. Don't worry. It happens

00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:38.130
early on, guys. It happens early on. No one knows

00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:42.230
how he gets to this dark place yet. But he's

00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:44.970
a storyteller. And so he is completely convinced.

00:33:45.009 --> 00:33:46.730
He knows exactly where he's going in the afterlife.

00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:49.410
Like, there's no question about it. So the fact

00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:51.549
of taking a character like that and putting him

00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:54.880
in such uncertainty, pretty much in his worst

00:33:54.880 --> 00:34:01.400
nightmare. It really appealed to me. And then

00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:05.259
still giving him some kind of hope, but just

00:34:05.259 --> 00:34:07.119
completely stripping away everything that he

00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.599
thought was real. while also giving him the hope

00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.579
that it is real, you just didn't get there and

00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.139
why didn't you get there? There must be a reason.

00:34:16.219 --> 00:34:17.860
So he does have this hope of finding out what

00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:20.039
is happening and why, and can I get to where

00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.460
I'm supposed to be and all of that, which pretty

00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:25.840
much takes him through the whole story arc of

00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:29.179
the book and the series. Well, you explored really

00:34:29.179 --> 00:34:32.460
well through his placement in this darkness.

00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.480
A, the kind of like the literal fear that all

00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.260
humanity gets when... we find ourselves in the

00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:42.099
unknown and threats everywhere but also when

00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.420
we have to dig deep and like okay what can i

00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:50.260
do instead what can i do different um and in

00:34:50.260 --> 00:34:52.099
a crazy way that's a strong theme that comes

00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:54.619
through in one or two that i recently did with

00:34:54.619 --> 00:34:56.739
my child and i'm not going to spoil that one

00:34:56.739 --> 00:35:00.199
um but yes but i really liked how at one point

00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:03.489
in the dark was he feels around for things and

00:35:03.489 --> 00:35:06.230
he comes across a prophetess's iron rod staff

00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:08.989
and I thought oh I've seen that in a museum that's

00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:13.469
amazing and I loved how he used it to then try

00:35:13.469 --> 00:35:16.090
and take it back a little bit of control, albeit

00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:18.449
he's still in a very dangerous situation and

00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:22.769
then that's how you open up and explore the aspects

00:35:22.769 --> 00:35:26.869
of the gods more and I found it really interesting

00:35:26.869 --> 00:35:30.570
how you portrayed Odin and Loki binding their

00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:33.860
brotherhood together in that scene which comes

00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:35.679
a lot later in the book I thought that's that's

00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.760
a really interesting take that it might have

00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:41.179
been Loki's idea or Odin was trying to do something

00:35:41.179 --> 00:35:43.659
but Loki says oh I can help you with that yeah

00:35:43.659 --> 00:35:46.380
do something he's always conveniently there to

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:51.199
help out but yeah that was really and of course

00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.000
they then go slight spoiler they go to the vulva

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.699
to bind their blood together and of course you've

00:35:56.699 --> 00:36:00.909
got runes riddled pun intended quite literally

00:36:00.909 --> 00:36:04.489
throughout this book. I really like that, the

00:36:04.489 --> 00:36:06.610
amount of reads, because they're always, at least

00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:09.510
in modern minds, always associated with magic.

00:36:11.409 --> 00:36:13.409
Modern minds can't perceive them as an alphabet.

00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:19.230
They're always in circles or in spells. More

00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:22.389
bind rooms is what we see today, which would

00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:25.210
have maybe some magical appearance, but it is

00:36:25.210 --> 00:36:27.650
also just a way to write that is really convenient.

00:36:28.219 --> 00:36:30.179
Yeah, which meant that a lot of people were literate,

00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.280
because it was quite easy to learn runes. So

00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:40.260
you could, you could read. Yeah. I was just going

00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:42.179
to say that for me, runes are interesting because

00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:45.400
they're both, they both have that mental aspect,

00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:47.719
the magic to it, but they also something physical.

00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:50.340
So there's something to literally hold on to.

00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.119
And when you read some of the old sagas and things

00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.199
like that, sometimes when they do a spell, what

00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:59.130
really makes the spell is that they will physically

00:36:59.130 --> 00:37:01.809
write the rune on the thing that they want to

00:37:01.809 --> 00:37:03.190
put the spell on. For example, if you want a

00:37:03.190 --> 00:37:05.110
magic sword, then you will have to physically

00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:07.250
carve in the runes that you want on the sword

00:37:07.250 --> 00:37:09.050
hilt, because otherwise it's not going to be

00:37:09.050 --> 00:37:10.829
transferred into the sword. So it's a physical

00:37:10.829 --> 00:37:13.690
thing. It's not just something imagined or just

00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:19.280
a symbol. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because,

00:37:19.340 --> 00:37:21.940
of course, I'm only very familiar with runes

00:37:21.940 --> 00:37:24.519
from having multiple rune sets given to me over

00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:25.960
the years, because, of course, that's a nice

00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:27.480
gift to give to someone who doesn't know about

00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:34.699
Vikings. But, yes, so I would love to know more

00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:38.440
about how you then... Because, of course, there

00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:40.360
are two other books following Northern Wrath,

00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:42.909
and I will find time to actually read them. Yeah,

00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:46.369
you mentioned the staff, the staff that Raghav

00:37:46.369 --> 00:37:48.349
finds, which is on the cover of the second book,

00:37:48.389 --> 00:37:50.269
so that kind of gives an idea of where we're

00:37:50.269 --> 00:37:52.469
headed and that it is important, as you say.

00:37:53.849 --> 00:37:56.889
Yes, so kind of like, did you then, after writing

00:37:56.889 --> 00:37:58.949
Northern Wrath, did you have a bigger plan for

00:37:58.949 --> 00:38:01.030
what would you then write for book two and book

00:38:01.030 --> 00:38:05.989
three? Yeah, I always had the whole arc, kind

00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:07.969
of, I knew sort of where we were headed, so I

00:38:07.969 --> 00:38:10.369
knew where we needed to end up. And actually,

00:38:11.449 --> 00:38:14.119
the It used to be the last chapter of book three.

00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:16.559
I think it's now third to last chapter, but it's

00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:18.639
the biggest one of them. It's really the ending

00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:20.679
of the book. I wrote that as I was writing Northern

00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:23.079
Wrath. So I wrote the ending of book three as

00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:24.820
I was writing Northern Wrath. And then every

00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:26.360
time I was in doubt about something that happened

00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:28.840
as I was writing on, I would go to the last chapter

00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.219
and I would just flesh it out a bit. And then

00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:32.420
I would go back and I would know where I need

00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.679
to go. So I knew exactly where we were going

00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.019
to end up. And it's just some characters took

00:38:37.019 --> 00:38:40.139
unexpected turns. Hilda, for example, never listened

00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:41.900
to me, so she never did what I wanted her to

00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:44.900
do. I had a very clear story arc to map out for

00:38:44.900 --> 00:38:46.280
us, like, it's going to be great, Hilda, just

00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:47.860
come on. And she was like, no, I'm going to go

00:38:47.860 --> 00:38:52.500
that way. So yeah, I spent the three books trying

00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:54.219
to chase Hilda into doing what I wanted her to

00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:56.860
do, and she never did. But I still got her to

00:38:56.860 --> 00:38:58.900
the end that I wanted for her, so that's at least

00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:02.480
something. So yeah, I very much knew where we

00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:05.320
were headed. For the first book, I had everything

00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:09.909
mapped out, and then I could see that I could

00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:12.329
kind of let go a bit and just follow the characters

00:39:12.329 --> 00:39:13.650
and see where they were headed and what they

00:39:13.650 --> 00:39:16.349
really, what I wanted to explore. And so, yeah,

00:39:16.489 --> 00:39:18.570
but I still always knew where we needed to end

00:39:18.570 --> 00:39:20.949
up. So that was always an end goal in mind that

00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:22.570
all of the characters had to work towards in

00:39:22.570 --> 00:39:26.829
order to get us there. Yeah. I love that. I know

00:39:26.829 --> 00:39:29.630
I dabbled, but I say dabbled. I used to be a

00:39:29.630 --> 00:39:33.139
writer of sorts back before. University, when

00:39:33.139 --> 00:39:35.000
I did do creative writing as part of my English

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:38.260
degree and I did write and Norse stuff was pretty

00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:40.760
much in everything. If I had stuck to poetry,

00:39:41.059 --> 00:39:42.900
they were all poems with Norse elements. That

00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:45.119
was the other way. I wrote horrendous poetry.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:47.880
I can never do a good not rhyming poem and my

00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.480
rhyming poems are even worse. But in terms of

00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:52.679
short stories and short fiction, I really enjoyed

00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.800
writing it. But I sometimes, when I did once

00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:01.610
have a novel in mind, It was always a delight

00:40:01.610 --> 00:40:04.250
when you found that you, as a writer, you know

00:40:04.250 --> 00:40:05.789
what you want your characters to do, like your

00:40:05.789 --> 00:40:08.750
director on stage, and they decide to basically

00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:12.429
ad lib and improvise, and then things take a

00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:16.170
different route. That's a really good sign of

00:40:16.170 --> 00:40:18.860
how good... this book is, dear viewers and listeners,

00:40:19.059 --> 00:40:21.199
that she has such a connection to her characters

00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.119
that they tell her what to do, not the other

00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:26.739
way around. Especially Hilda. But there are a

00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:29.079
few characters. There was one character who would

00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:32.360
never tell me what she was up to. So this is

00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:34.519
not going to be a spoiler for anyone, but it's

00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:36.400
Siv. She would never tell me anything that she

00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:38.699
was going to do. So every time I knew I had to

00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:40.400
go to her, I was like, I have no idea what's

00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:44.019
going to happen, but I guess we'll see. She just

00:40:44.019 --> 00:40:48.360
went with the flow. Yeah. Very good. Apologies

00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.639
to any viewers listening. I'm not being beamed

00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.360
up by aliens. The sun is just coming through

00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.440
the one window I have opened, so I'm just being

00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.239
illuminated wonderfully by the sun. This is why

00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.340
I should have kept the curtains shut. But I thought

00:40:58.340 --> 00:40:59.980
daylight, I could be illuminated by daylight,

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:01.579
but this is too strong a daylight. It's the winter

00:41:01.579 --> 00:41:05.179
sun. But anyway. It didn't last long, unfortunately,

00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:09.099
so that doesn't go well for the weather. It's

00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:11.079
fine. For those listening on audio only, you

00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.280
won't know any different. It's just me, my voice,

00:41:13.420 --> 00:41:17.949
not any different. So I'd love to learn more

00:41:17.949 --> 00:41:21.550
about your experience on the Sea Stallion because

00:41:21.550 --> 00:41:23.989
how long did you spend sailing it? Did you have

00:41:23.989 --> 00:41:27.389
to spend time training to go on it? Did you have

00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:33.010
long voyages, short voyages? So first of all,

00:41:33.570 --> 00:41:35.849
to be a part of the crew of the Sea Stallion

00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:37.429
is also to take care of the ship in the winter.

00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:40.579
So first time I was there was actually just to

00:41:40.579 --> 00:41:42.860
prepare the ship. So we would tar kilometres

00:41:42.860 --> 00:41:45.719
and kilometres of rope. We would tar the deck.

00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:48.300
We would repaint the outside, which needs to

00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:50.539
be done every year because, you know, sea water

00:41:50.539 --> 00:41:52.780
kind of digs into it. So there's a lot of maintenance

00:41:52.780 --> 00:41:54.159
to be done. So that was the first time I was

00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.000
there and I met the crew and then went out for

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.659
a training sail, which is a weekend. So we would

00:42:00.659 --> 00:42:03.099
go out both days and then sleep on the harbour.

00:42:04.349 --> 00:42:07.090
First time. So first time I was on the Sea Stallion

00:42:07.090 --> 00:42:10.230
was the time that it has sailed in all of its

00:42:10.230 --> 00:42:13.909
history with the fewest crew members, which was

00:42:13.909 --> 00:42:15.510
very good for the first experience because it

00:42:15.510 --> 00:42:17.230
meant that you had to be everywhere. Like you

00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:18.730
had to have your post. You had to be there. You

00:42:18.730 --> 00:42:20.389
had to do it. There was no other choice. We couldn't

00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:22.329
get the sail up without everyone being at the

00:42:22.329 --> 00:42:26.269
post and doing it perfectly. So I learned a lot

00:42:26.269 --> 00:42:29.250
that weekend and then I just kept coming back

00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:32.119
for more. So there would be, there will be Several

00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:35.380
training weekends throughout the season and then

00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:37.239
when we get to summer there's usually a bigger

00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.000
sale Which would be anywhere between one to three

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.679
weeks And you can sign up for one week at a time

00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.159
or you can sign up for all three So the longest

00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.420
I've been on the ship was for three weeks Which

00:42:49.420 --> 00:42:52.000
was a great experience. It's always a bit strange

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.380
when the one week is over and you get a new crew

00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:57.420
because by the end of the week So good. Everyone

00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:59.780
knows exactly what they need to do when. And

00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.920
sailing a Viking ship is that. That is the collaboration

00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.500
of a lifetime. It is everyone knowing their places,

00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.300
knowing what to do, when, how, and just doing

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:11.739
it without question perfectly in sync. Even sometimes

00:43:11.739 --> 00:43:13.179
when you get really good, you don't even need

00:43:13.179 --> 00:43:15.469
to say the word. People already. doing it because

00:43:15.469 --> 00:43:16.869
they know it needs to be done. So when you say

00:43:16.869 --> 00:43:18.530
with a really good crew, you can definitely feel

00:43:18.530 --> 00:43:21.030
it. So when you get that change over after a

00:43:21.030 --> 00:43:22.550
week, you feel like, oh, we're starting over

00:43:22.550 --> 00:43:25.530
again. OK, OK, OK, we got to get into the routine

00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:28.030
with some new people. But it was very rewarding,

00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:32.869
very fun. I've been everywhere on the ship. So

00:43:32.869 --> 00:43:34.409
there are different posts in different places.

00:43:34.869 --> 00:43:37.369
I've been everywhere. So I think my favorite

00:43:37.369 --> 00:43:40.369
is probably being the mid -shelter, which is

00:43:40.369 --> 00:43:45.820
basically a parrot. A Viking warship is long

00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:52.260
and slim. So it's very long. And when you're

00:43:52.260 --> 00:43:54.760
out at sea, with the wind flapping, with the

00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:57.460
sail, the huge sail in between, you can't hear

00:43:57.460 --> 00:43:59.860
from one end to the other. So when commands are

00:43:59.860 --> 00:44:01.840
being shouted, you literally cannot hear it at

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:03.659
the other end. So you need a person in the middle

00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:06.519
who shouts commands on to where they need to

00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.940
be. Otherwise you can't communicate. So you need

00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:10.760
someone who can communicate between the different

00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:13.480
ship parts, especially in like emergency situations,

00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:15.320
things like that. You need to have someone who

00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:17.300
is quick at it. And so that was really fun because

00:44:17.300 --> 00:44:19.539
you got to pretty much dangle over the side of

00:44:19.539 --> 00:44:24.900
the ship and shout. And when we were rowing,

00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.440
you got to sit on the, on the yard and then shout

00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:29.760
around the mass and then shout. So that was really

00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:33.599
fun. Yeah, and there's just something satisfying

00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.699
about hearing a command said, repeating it, and

00:44:35.699 --> 00:44:37.900
then seeing everyone doing it in unison. That's

00:44:37.900 --> 00:44:41.519
really satisfying. That was fun. Yeah, I was

00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:43.300
really, really lucky. When I got there, they

00:44:43.300 --> 00:44:45.440
all knew that I was a writer. They all knew that

00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.920
I was passionate about Vikings. And so they really

00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:51.480
made an effort to get me around the ship and,

00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.659
you know, before that I got to experience everything.

00:44:54.619 --> 00:44:58.219
Yeah, it was very fun. I think a lot of people

00:44:59.889 --> 00:45:01.769
think that being on a Viking ship is a bit different

00:45:01.769 --> 00:45:04.230
than what it is. I think a lot of them are shocked

00:45:04.230 --> 00:45:05.889
at, for example, how do you go to the bathroom

00:45:05.889 --> 00:45:08.550
is one of the most important questions that we

00:45:08.550 --> 00:45:11.489
get. How do you go to the toilet? And because

00:45:11.489 --> 00:45:13.829
it's just a ship, it's just open. There's no

00:45:13.829 --> 00:45:18.510
indoors. There's nowhere at all. So we have the

00:45:18.510 --> 00:45:20.909
luxury setting, which means that we have a little

00:45:20.909 --> 00:45:23.030
tent that kind of covers you here. And then there's

00:45:23.030 --> 00:45:25.489
a bucket. Yes, I was going to say there's always

00:45:25.489 --> 00:45:28.550
going to be a bucket. There's a bucket. But the

00:45:28.550 --> 00:45:30.820
thing is, the tender only covers you here. So

00:45:30.820 --> 00:45:32.480
you're sitting on the bucket and can literally

00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.440
see a person sitting right next to you chatting

00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.840
to someone else. So I think a lot of people,

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.400
the first time that they're out for a long time

00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:42.760
with the ship, that's the main mental break is

00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.179
like even on the toilet, I can't be alone. Like

00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:47.619
I have to be around other people constantly.

00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:50.659
And so it's quite interesting to see the first

00:45:50.659 --> 00:45:52.400
three days as people are kind of avoiding the

00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:55.920
toilet situation. And then on the fourth day,

00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:57.780
she's like, I don't care anymore. I've done it

00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:02.349
now. But one of the sailors very early on told

00:46:02.349 --> 00:46:05.489
me, I have a trick. I'm like, OK, what's your

00:46:05.489 --> 00:46:07.469
trick? My trick is I'm scared of the toilet.

00:46:07.550 --> 00:46:09.590
So the first thing I go, as soon as we go out,

00:46:09.710 --> 00:46:12.849
I go to the toilet and it's done. Then I know

00:46:12.849 --> 00:46:15.010
that I can do it and I can do it from there on.

00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:17.349
I always thought that was quite funny. But yeah,

00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:21.190
it's the... It makes me think of, of course,

00:46:21.610 --> 00:46:24.150
the infamous... I was saying, the famous man

00:46:24.150 --> 00:46:26.329
on the loo in the Yorvik Viking Museum, because

00:46:26.329 --> 00:46:29.590
he felt only up to there. He's very visible,

00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:32.650
very much straining the poor guide. You can continue

00:46:32.650 --> 00:46:38.309
the conversation, no problem. I mean, that is

00:46:38.309 --> 00:46:41.150
the way of it, right? And it goes for everything

00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:42.710
when you're aboard a ship, like you're never

00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:44.750
alone. There is no place to be alone. You're

00:46:44.750 --> 00:46:47.389
always like this shoulder to shoulder with someone

00:46:47.389 --> 00:46:50.550
else. Because although it's a long ship, we're

00:46:50.550 --> 00:46:53.760
still like 65 people on board. Yeah, so you're

00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.800
like sitting like this shoulder to shoulder with

00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.900
someone else You'll be lying down across people

00:46:58.900 --> 00:47:01.840
when you when you sleep at night It's literally

00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:03.619
shoulder to shoulder and half the crew is still

00:47:03.619 --> 00:47:05.599
awake and sailing the ship and things like that

00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:09.159
So it is it is a very communal experience and

00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:10.719
it would have been exactly the same for the Vikings

00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.679
I mean they were to ask about sleeping. Yeah,

00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:19.480
how did you sleep? So either we went into a port

00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:22.000
and we would put up our tents and we would sleep

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.820
there. So the Vikings did that a lot as well

00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:26.760
because they used to follow the shore. If we're

00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.440
sailing during night, which is the best times,

00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:35.280
then we would sleep on the oars. So you have

00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.679
the long ship like this and you have the mast

00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.380
in the middle. So you have both sides, the harbour

00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:42.659
and port side. So whichever side that we're sailing

00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.460
on, the ship will usually tilt. So we'll just

00:47:45.460 --> 00:47:47.889
ride. we will put the oars out, we will roll

00:47:47.889 --> 00:47:51.650
them out on top. Okay. And we will sleep on that

00:47:51.650 --> 00:47:54.809
side by side like this on top of the oars. Wow.

00:47:55.070 --> 00:47:57.150
Yeah, usually with some tarpaulins over us and

00:47:57.150 --> 00:48:00.250
things like that. Yeah. I just had images of

00:48:00.250 --> 00:48:02.090
like the oars being used to make some kind of

00:48:02.090 --> 00:48:03.929
tent, literally like you say like kind of like

00:48:03.929 --> 00:48:06.329
getting them erect that just. Yeah, I mean that

00:48:06.329 --> 00:48:08.869
would be on merchant ships but not on warships,

00:48:08.929 --> 00:48:11.170
there's no space for that. It's too narrow, you

00:48:11.170 --> 00:48:16.380
can't do it. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So how

00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:18.940
long did you go? Well, I know your longest sail

00:48:18.940 --> 00:48:21.059
was three weeks, but did you do it for a number

00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:23.980
of years or was it just for one year? So I kept

00:48:23.980 --> 00:48:29.860
coming back for like three or four years. Last

00:48:29.860 --> 00:48:32.440
time I sailed with it was last year, but I think

00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:34.619
that might. It might be my last show because

00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:36.460
it might be difficult for me to get away now

00:48:36.460 --> 00:48:39.480
during the season. But yeah, it's it's been it's

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.079
been a continuous thing throughout throughout

00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:43.820
the years, which has been really fun. Yeah, it's

00:48:43.820 --> 00:48:45.940
really it has a really lovely crew. I mean, that's

00:48:45.940 --> 00:48:47.559
the thing that keeps you coming back. Right.

00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:49.820
So many different kinds of people, so many nice

00:48:49.820 --> 00:48:52.380
conversations to be had. And there's just you

00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:54.260
get to know people differently when you're that

00:48:54.260 --> 00:48:57.800
close all the time. constantly and you have night

00:48:57.800 --> 00:48:59.719
shifts together, you're sitting with a little

00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:01.840
cup of hot cocoa or whatever it is you're drinking

00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.219
and freezing but like, look it's pretty, yeah

00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:09.800
it's pretty. That is a different kind of experience,

00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:11.840
you're cuddling at night because it's just cold

00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.500
so you get to know people in a different sort

00:49:14.500 --> 00:49:20.500
of way, that's very nice. Wonderful experiences,

00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:25.210
wonderful wonderful experiences. So I know you've

00:49:25.210 --> 00:49:27.489
got this trilogy under your belt. Obviously I've

00:49:27.489 --> 00:49:29.449
come to it a few years too late, but I'm here.

00:49:29.650 --> 00:49:34.369
I've read it. I have been there for a lot longer,

00:49:34.530 --> 00:49:37.329
so don't worry. But is there anything else you

00:49:37.329 --> 00:49:39.710
want to maybe write that returns you to this

00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:42.769
world of Viking Age history or mythology? Yeah,

00:49:42.969 --> 00:49:47.000
I mean... There are certain what -if ideas that

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:50.239
I quite like. So what I've written since hasn't

00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:51.980
been Viking focused. So I feel like that was

00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:53.320
something I needed to explore and then there

00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:54.800
was something else I needed to explore and I

00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.780
wrote that. Now I'm writing something else. That's

00:49:58.780 --> 00:50:00.719
a science fiction fantasy right now. Science

00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:04.039
fantasy is what you call it. But I can see some

00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:06.639
somewhere down the line maybe returning to something

00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.739
Viking inspired or something that jumps off from

00:50:09.739 --> 00:50:14.440
this. But for now... I mean, doors are open,

00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.980
but I am going to be writing other fantasy things,

00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:19.659
other historical fantasy things for a little

00:50:19.659 --> 00:50:23.380
while, just to explore other interests as well.

00:50:23.619 --> 00:50:26.840
And then we'll see, we'll see what, yeah, if

00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:28.719
I get around to coming back to it, who knows?

00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:32.820
Well, I will continue to shout out about this

00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:34.960
trilogy as I read each and every book. Don't

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.380
worry, because I can't believe that. The clip

00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:39.500
hanging, you've left that book. I can't not read

00:50:39.500 --> 00:50:41.480
the next one. That's why I put it on my Christmas

00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:46.579
list. But in terms of, of course, us both sharing

00:50:46.579 --> 00:50:48.760
a shared interest and passion for this topic,

00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:51.900
is there anything that you've read or watched

00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:55.599
or played that has Viking elements or elements

00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:59.570
in it? Oh, I mean... I tried to consume a lot

00:50:59.570 --> 00:51:06.650
of it. I must admit, but I have, but I did, I

00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:08.250
did watch, I mean, I was there, I watched Viking.

00:51:08.409 --> 00:51:10.750
So that came out when I had written the first

00:51:10.750 --> 00:51:12.909
half of the first book. So I started watching

00:51:12.909 --> 00:51:18.030
that. and obviously I played Assassin's Creed

00:51:18.030 --> 00:51:21.250
Valhalla, which I really enjoyed actually. I'm

00:51:21.250 --> 00:51:23.510
so far behind in that one, apparently just roughly

00:51:23.510 --> 00:51:26.070
of game time and reading time. I think I got

00:51:26.070 --> 00:51:28.769
as far as conquering three counties in England

00:51:28.769 --> 00:51:33.420
and that's where my A -ball still is. I quite

00:51:33.420 --> 00:51:35.500
liked it because there were certain, sometimes

00:51:35.500 --> 00:51:37.539
it would be small things, but I'd be like, oh,

00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:39.219
that's an X from there and there and there. And

00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:41.360
I would know the reference. So I enjoyed that

00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:44.780
aspect of it a lot. It gave it kind of an extra

00:51:44.780 --> 00:51:46.500
bonus because I did so much research. I feel

00:51:46.500 --> 00:51:49.820
like it paid off. I could name things and where

00:51:49.820 --> 00:51:52.599
they were from, which was fun. Yeah, recently,

00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:56.800
that's that. Oh, I haven't started yet, but I

00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.679
just got a hold of Ben Galley's books, which

00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:02.280
I hear are North inspired. So I'm going to be

00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:07.199
trying those out soon. Yeah, I think that's my

00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.119
January read. So we'll see how I get along with

00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:14.900
that. But yeah, otherwise, yeah, recently. Yeah.

00:52:15.579 --> 00:52:17.320
Now, because you want to play the Assassin's

00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.400
Creed Valhalla, did you play the Viking Age discovery

00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:25.280
tour? Which is no. Oh, you need to, it's what

00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:27.980
they've put out free. It's like a free DLC effectively.

00:52:28.179 --> 00:52:31.659
It's very educational. It has no stealth and

00:52:31.659 --> 00:52:33.659
stabbing in it, so you can play it without fear

00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:37.039
of death at all. Okay, that's good. I do highly

00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:39.079
recommend it for anyone who just wants to know

00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:41.519
why I'm so passionate about Viking's beginning,

00:52:41.619 --> 00:52:44.960
because it puts you in the position of a Viking.

00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:48.380
I think it is. I think it is Harold Bluetooth.

00:52:49.019 --> 00:52:52.489
Oh. Okay, I think it is I think you'd there is

00:52:52.489 --> 00:52:57.789
a king that basically It must be because I was

00:52:57.789 --> 00:52:59.929
father who's a clan chief says, okay, I'm gonna

00:52:59.929 --> 00:53:02.150
submit to him. That means your inheritance has

00:53:02.150 --> 00:53:04.610
gone either I'm sorry, but I want peace and I

00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:07.150
was like No, I will go join Sigurd and we will

00:53:07.150 --> 00:53:09.010
go off to England. They will find glory and riches

00:53:09.010 --> 00:53:15.030
and death and But yes, there is you've paid you

00:53:15.030 --> 00:53:17.969
follow the journey of a North trader who then

00:53:17.969 --> 00:53:21.260
decides to leave for England to settle down for

00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:23.599
the kingdom from his little farmstead, that kind

00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:25.820
of thing. But you will also follow the same path

00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:28.639
of an Anglo -Saxon monk, so you see it from both

00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:31.480
sides. Interesting, yay! And they do go into

00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:33.679
North mythology quite nicely as a third chapter

00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:35.960
in the end, and I loved that bit. If you want

00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:38.460
to get a sneak peek, please do go to my humble

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:40.960
streaming channel of us, Jamie Charles, gaming

00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:43.619
podcast series of Playing with the Norms, because

00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:46.280
I have two videos. If you want to play it, you

00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.159
can watch it, but I do recommend you play it

00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:51.239
anyway. It's good fun. It's got lots of fun little

00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:53.079
anecdotes, not just about how they make the game

00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:56.579
in terms of concept art and voices and using

00:53:56.579 --> 00:53:58.559
the runes and that kind of language, but they

00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:00.960
also show off different artifacts that they have

00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:02.880
genuinely gone to and studied. Like they came

00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:05.059
to York, they went to the Orvik Viking Museum.

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.440
So I give a big thumbs up for that. As well as

00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:10.139
kind of like the museums I'm sure in Denmark

00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:12.099
and Norway and that kind of thing to really touch

00:54:12.099 --> 00:54:16.159
base with everything Viking. Although I'll always

00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:18.059
be miffed about why they decided to make the

00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:20.199
north of Anglo -Saxon England in the game always

00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:25.860
winter and then everything else summer. It doesn't

00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:29.059
work geographically. England's more rainy now.

00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:32.179
We don't have snow these days anymore, unfortunately.

00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:35.199
That's one of those common misconceptions as

00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:36.880
well. If you talk about Vikings, it's got to

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.110
be snow, it's got to be mountains. I wrote the

00:54:40.110 --> 00:54:42.929
first part of the first book, doing my MA in

00:54:42.929 --> 00:54:45.070
creative writing, and one of my tutors wrote

00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:46.969
back, I'm missing some mountains, and I had to

00:54:46.969 --> 00:54:48.949
tell her, listen, it's set in Denmark, there

00:54:48.949 --> 00:54:54.429
are no mountains in Denmark. Just because she

00:54:54.429 --> 00:54:57.949
had a search engine. But there are no mountains

00:54:57.949 --> 00:55:01.110
in this whole land, like I can't just put them

00:55:01.110 --> 00:55:05.389
in there. My closest family love to wind me up

00:55:05.389 --> 00:55:07.130
whenever they see something Viking with Hansel

00:55:07.130 --> 00:55:09.329
and Rebecca is wearing horns and I tell them

00:55:09.329 --> 00:55:12.130
off and I'm like really everyone knows now Vikings

00:55:12.130 --> 00:55:15.150
don't wear horns but it's such a it's such a

00:55:15.150 --> 00:55:18.650
grafted image it cannot be separated it really

00:55:18.650 --> 00:55:21.449
can I mean even children my daughter will grow

00:55:21.449 --> 00:55:25.489
up believing knowing that a Viking images is

00:55:25.489 --> 00:55:28.550
just of course because that because otherwise

00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:30.949
they would just like any other anglo -saxon or

00:55:30.949 --> 00:55:33.710
any other kind of like 10th century warrior helmet

00:55:33.710 --> 00:55:36.409
yeah in a way it's kind of marketing that happened

00:55:36.409 --> 00:55:38.690
later like look vikings are cool look at their

00:55:38.690 --> 00:55:42.289
helmets they're fun it might not be true but

00:55:42.289 --> 00:55:45.590
like it did give them an identity that makes

00:55:45.590 --> 00:55:47.409
them very recognizable to a lot of people. And

00:55:47.409 --> 00:55:49.550
I think that's why a lot of people know Norse

00:55:49.550 --> 00:55:51.989
mythology today, even though I don't personally.

00:55:52.489 --> 00:55:55.389
Like the horned helmets, please no. Please don't

00:55:55.389 --> 00:55:57.969
include them in the media. But I recognize that

00:55:57.969 --> 00:56:01.630
it had a positive effect, I think, on the interest

00:56:01.630 --> 00:56:03.550
of a lot of archaeologists in the period as well,

00:56:03.610 --> 00:56:06.610
because it became hip. It became cool, which

00:56:06.610 --> 00:56:08.230
is the same with the Marvel things. It became

00:56:08.230 --> 00:56:10.989
cool. So now people are interested in it. And

00:56:10.989 --> 00:56:13.190
I can only say, yeah, thank you for that. That's

00:56:13.190 --> 00:56:16.239
cool. Yeah, I mean it was one question I actually

00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:19.599
got asked at the Mary Symposium during my debut

00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.320
academic presentation about Valkyries in fantasy

00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.480
fiction because they're my beak, they're my catnip,

00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:27.780
anything Valkyries, because they're so unknown

00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:30.769
I just love how many... many aspects of them,

00:56:30.969 --> 00:56:33.690
but I was asked, like, do you think anyone will

00:56:33.690 --> 00:56:35.989
go and read the sagas after reading a Thor comic

00:56:35.989 --> 00:56:38.210
or reading a book about Loki or a Valkyrie? And

00:56:38.210 --> 00:56:40.909
I'm like, I'm not entirely sure. Some might,

00:56:41.010 --> 00:56:44.190
some might not, because I personally, I have

00:56:44.190 --> 00:56:46.269
touched on the old sagas. I'm looking at a copy

00:56:46.269 --> 00:56:50.250
of Gritte's saga and there's another saga book

00:56:50.250 --> 00:56:52.369
over there. But on the whole, I just like all

00:56:52.369 --> 00:56:54.650
the different modern interpretations. I like

00:56:54.650 --> 00:56:57.659
the and different ways of returning and adapting.

00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:00.320
There's so many different books about Loki, and

00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:02.940
they're all recognizably Loki, but they're all

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:05.719
unique and different. I think people want more

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:08.079
of that. They want more from, not just seeing

00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:10.860
new, but refreshing, original. And that's why,

00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:13.000
of course, I loved your book, because it is refreshingly

00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:14.880
original compared to all the other Norse fantasy

00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:17.119
books I've read. Especially with the elements

00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:19.280
of history, I always find that a really careful

00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:21.920
balance for you as writers to balance the historical

00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:23.679
fiction with the Norse fantasy instead of just

00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:26.469
going straight to Norse fantasy. I mean the other

00:57:26.469 --> 00:57:28.130
thing that drew me to your book of course was

00:57:28.130 --> 00:57:31.070
the wonderful quote from my heroine Joanne Harris.

00:57:33.050 --> 00:57:37.570
Because of course her series of Rootlight, that

00:57:37.570 --> 00:57:41.090
came out when I was trying to write my now forever

00:57:41.090 --> 00:57:44.150
forgotten dusty work in progress novel about

00:57:44.150 --> 00:57:47.329
Valkyries being active in York. Because no one's

00:57:47.329 --> 00:57:48.750
written about this thing before and then hers

00:57:48.750 --> 00:57:50.230
came along and thought you know what she can

00:57:50.230 --> 00:57:54.840
have the crown. And plus she knows her things,

00:57:54.900 --> 00:57:56.739
and she's as passionate about it as I am, and

00:57:56.739 --> 00:58:00.559
I've followed her around ever since. But the

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:04.019
quotes you've got for this book are well -deserved.

00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:06.519
They are very well -deserved. Thank you. I've

00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:07.980
been so blessed with that. Especially, I mean,

00:58:08.820 --> 00:58:10.940
I... So Joanne Harris is a funny one because

00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:13.280
The Gospel of Loki had come out a few years before

00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:15.539
Northern Wrath came out, and I love that book.

00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.500
So when I was writing Northern Wrath, I felt

00:58:18.500 --> 00:58:20.380
like this pressure, what if people come in and

00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:22.260
they don't know anything about Norse gods and

00:58:22.260 --> 00:58:24.679
they don't know, like how am I gonna explain

00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:27.179
this whole world to them and the lore and everything?

00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:29.460
And then the Gospel of Loki came out and I was

00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:31.619
like, oh, I'm just gonna tell them go read the

00:58:31.619 --> 00:58:35.619
Gospel of Loki and I'm all set. So it kind of

00:58:35.619 --> 00:58:37.239
solved this big issue that I had. It was like,

00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:41.030
ah, do I have to include all of this? behind

00:58:41.030 --> 00:58:43.070
the scenes story in order for it to make sense

00:58:43.070 --> 00:58:45.130
or can I take it out let readers figure it out

00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:47.309
and those who want to learn more can go and learn

00:58:47.309 --> 00:58:50.570
more and I can direct them this way like it just

00:58:50.570 --> 00:58:52.909
removed a huge amount of pressure because it

00:58:52.909 --> 00:58:57.170
was so well written and such an interesting retelling

00:58:57.170 --> 00:59:00.570
of the of the sagas of the of the old no stories

00:59:00.570 --> 00:59:03.130
it's kind of weaved together from from locus

00:59:03.130 --> 00:59:05.909
point of view and it's pieced together in a way

00:59:05.909 --> 00:59:07.849
that it all makes sense and it comes into a bigger

00:59:09.389 --> 00:59:13.289
ensemble, you can say, it fits together. Yes.

00:59:13.510 --> 00:59:15.070
I think she did a wonderful job on that. So,

00:59:15.070 --> 00:59:17.630
yeah, I felt very, very, very blessed, first

00:59:17.630 --> 00:59:19.289
of all, to have that book come out from her.

00:59:19.369 --> 00:59:21.989
And then she goes and reads it and gives me a

00:59:21.989 --> 00:59:23.550
quote that was really, really nice. I found really

00:59:23.550 --> 00:59:29.150
lovely. She is awesome. She's awesome. I'm quite

00:59:29.150 --> 00:59:31.469
shocked in that I know she lives somewhere in...

00:59:31.579 --> 00:59:34.000
my neighborhood area of West Yorkshire. I just

00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.340
don't know where obviously because I'm not going

00:59:35.340 --> 00:59:39.300
to go there. But I've went there a couple of

00:59:39.300 --> 00:59:41.199
times on this podcast talking about speaking

00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:44.579
of, that has reminded me actually, have you come

00:59:44.579 --> 00:59:48.400
across the Rikener Rock series on Netflix? I

00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:50.500
have not watched it but I have seen it recommended

00:59:50.500 --> 00:59:55.980
to me. I recommend it too. I think you'll like

00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:58.039
it. I've been hearing about it a lot recently.

00:59:58.380 --> 00:59:59.860
I think there are three, four different people

00:59:59.860 --> 01:00:03.880
who recommended it to me recently. Well, I got

01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.480
Joanne Harris and Professor Caroline Larrington,

01:00:06.579 --> 01:00:10.699
who of course is another academic top hat in

01:00:10.699 --> 01:00:13.579
the world of Norse mythology. And we had a really

01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:15.280
fascinating podcast discussing and reviewing

01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:17.539
all three seasons. So don't watch that episode

01:00:17.539 --> 01:00:20.289
because it'll spoil it for you. after you've

01:00:20.289 --> 01:00:22.929
watched all three seasons but yes make that on

01:00:22.929 --> 01:00:26.130
your Christmas bench list because it is it's

01:00:26.130 --> 01:00:29.769
it's wonderful compared to kind of like the marvel

01:00:29.769 --> 01:00:33.130
or gods turning up in historical dramas like

01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:34.389
Vikings kind of thing because I think that's

01:00:34.389 --> 01:00:36.429
the one thing that lured me first about the Vikings

01:00:36.429 --> 01:00:38.190
was where there's a seat like I think it's in

01:00:38.190 --> 01:00:40.309
the intro where there's Stephen the battlefield

01:00:40.309 --> 01:00:42.309
and of course the tall figure with a big rimmed

01:00:42.309 --> 01:00:45.639
hat yeah and slush around walking around. It's

01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:47.239
one series that I didn't quite follow Viking

01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:49.739
because I think I got to season four after Rolo

01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:53.780
had settled down in Normandy. Yeah, I kind of

01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:55.260
fell off at that point as well. I think I came

01:00:55.260 --> 01:00:56.820
back to it and finished it some years later.

01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.219
Personally, and this is a gripe I have both with

01:01:00.219 --> 01:01:04.960
that series and with the Assassin's Creed one

01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:08.440
actually, is their interpretation of Eva the

01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:14.940
Boneless because I've read the I wrote the historical

01:01:14.940 --> 01:01:17.280
accounts of Saxo Grammaticus, which tells the

01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:19.179
histories of Denmark. And I grew up with that

01:01:19.179 --> 01:01:21.239
version of it. And to me, Eva, the boneless is

01:01:21.239 --> 01:01:25.960
the biggest hero of all. And so seeing him portrayed

01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:29.659
as a traitor, as a mean person, as a horrible

01:01:29.659 --> 01:01:32.340
human being, it just feels so wrong. I feel so

01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:37.280
wrong whenever I see it. So that is unfortunately

01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:39.920
a gripe. I can have with a lot of things because

01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:41.579
I've done so much research that when I have an

01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:43.739
opinion of something and I see it, ah, it's completely

01:01:43.739 --> 01:01:45.719
the opposite way, it's just difficult to accept

01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:48.420
and swallow. But especially Eva because he is

01:01:48.420 --> 01:01:50.719
my biggest hero in all of the Viking stories.

01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:55.340
He is the one I love the most. Interesting. Yeah.

01:01:55.500 --> 01:01:58.539
So yeah, the version of him in Saxochromaticus

01:01:58.539 --> 01:02:00.880
is so different from anything that's portrayed

01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:03.739
in modern media. I know obviously modern media.

01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:06.659
probably relies more on the English language

01:02:06.659 --> 01:02:09.900
accounts of it, which obviously we'll see him

01:02:09.900 --> 01:02:16.980
as an intruder. That's a real good point about

01:02:16.980 --> 01:02:20.599
the sources and what's used and what's not behind

01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:22.059
all these things. I mean, I think that's why

01:02:22.059 --> 01:02:24.340
I was impressed when I did play the Viking Age

01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:26.860
tour of Fastid's Creek Valhalla, because it showed

01:02:26.860 --> 01:02:30.559
how international they went, especially around

01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:33.039
Scandinavia and not just on the UK side of things.

01:02:33.659 --> 01:02:37.460
really capture the big impact on the cultural

01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:39.539
and the movements and exploration of the Vikings

01:02:39.539 --> 01:02:41.840
through their artifacts and research. Yeah, and

01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:43.980
they went to the Mediterranean Sea. I mean, they've

01:02:43.980 --> 01:02:49.780
traveled so far. Yes, yes. It's questionable

01:02:49.780 --> 01:02:53.260
how they present that in the sequel series, Vikings

01:02:53.260 --> 01:02:57.980
or Halle, because that is a real mishmash of

01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:00.320
timelines. And I've had three really interesting

01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:06.460
episodes. The series is a mismatch of 300 years

01:03:06.460 --> 01:03:11.099
of history snapped into one. Yeah, I mean, a

01:03:11.099 --> 01:03:13.519
lot of me and my guest panels all agreed at the

01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:15.340
end of every episode recording reviewing each

01:03:15.340 --> 01:03:17.420
season. Why didn't they just focus on one character

01:03:17.420 --> 01:03:19.159
and do that as a season and do another character

01:03:19.159 --> 01:03:21.000
in another season? Because there was enough drama,

01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:24.780
genuine drama in all three of them to not merge

01:03:24.780 --> 01:03:27.519
them together. Exactly. I agree. I agree. I agree.

01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:29.360
I agree. It was one of my biggest gripes as well.

01:03:29.820 --> 01:03:31.539
But then I get it. Like you want to convey a

01:03:31.539 --> 01:03:33.840
story and you're worried that if you switch characters,

01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:36.039
like main characters, then your audience is not

01:03:36.039 --> 01:03:37.739
going to follow you. Like I get the reasoning.

01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:42.239
I just don't love it. Yeah. I think they really

01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:44.280
were trying to have their cake and eat it. Yeah.

01:03:44.659 --> 01:03:47.099
And that's why it got cut so short being season

01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:48.820
three was last season, but the way they ended

01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:52.480
season three, they clearly had drive or plans.

01:03:52.900 --> 01:03:55.360
for season four which i think actually would

01:03:55.360 --> 01:03:57.219
have been interesting to see because that got

01:03:57.219 --> 01:03:59.539
onto what i call the real game of thrones of

01:03:59.539 --> 01:04:02.860
the 11th century because of course canute eventually

01:04:02.860 --> 01:04:05.119
he does he does die in season three sorry spoilers

01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:07.739
he does die but historically he also dies yeah

01:04:07.739 --> 01:04:09.320
i'm just gonna say historically they're all dead

01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:13.079
now a lot of them were dead when they should

01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:14.420
have should have been and a lot of them were

01:04:14.420 --> 01:04:16.719
little when yeah should have been little but

01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:18.179
they were all grown up and in the ground like

01:04:18.179 --> 01:04:21.050
harold Harder or harder, I'd be like, why, why,

01:04:21.110 --> 01:04:22.909
you're not, no you're not. And then of course,

01:04:23.090 --> 01:04:26.969
Leif and, but yes. But in terms of heroes, going

01:04:26.969 --> 01:04:29.869
back to your point about Ivar the Boneless, like

01:04:29.869 --> 01:04:33.309
for me, it's always been, well, it came through

01:04:33.309 --> 01:04:36.150
quite late through a lot of reading, but it came

01:04:36.150 --> 01:04:38.670
down to Queen Emma of Normandy. Well, Queen Emma

01:04:38.670 --> 01:04:40.289
of England, but she wasn't Normandy, Emma of

01:04:40.289 --> 01:04:42.710
Normandy. And of course, her then second husband

01:04:42.710 --> 01:04:45.030
and father of her son, Penute, because I thought

01:04:45.030 --> 01:04:47.969
he is, of course in England we have the old,

01:04:49.329 --> 01:04:51.610
dusted off story of him trying to turn back the

01:04:51.610 --> 01:04:53.630
tide and get his feet wet, but he did so much

01:04:53.630 --> 01:04:56.210
more, so much more, and I did like how in the

01:04:56.210 --> 01:04:58.349
series Vikings of Halle they showed him meeting

01:04:58.349 --> 01:05:01.130
the Pope, even though that was a really unconventional

01:05:01.130 --> 01:05:03.289
meeting of the Pope and involved someone dying

01:05:03.289 --> 01:05:05.289
and someone getting hit in the head in the box,

01:05:05.650 --> 01:05:07.969
and it totally wouldn't have happened. I think

01:05:07.969 --> 01:05:09.170
they would have all been arrested and put in

01:05:09.170 --> 01:05:13.570
prison if they had murdered that person. But

01:05:13.570 --> 01:05:16.949
yes, I do think they showed him in a better light.

01:05:17.809 --> 01:05:20.110
Oh, I think I still think he came across as a

01:05:20.110 --> 01:05:22.690
villain, like he came across as a person, which

01:05:22.690 --> 01:05:25.650
to me feels really off just because the version

01:05:25.650 --> 01:05:28.070
of events that I grew up with and the reason

01:05:28.070 --> 01:05:30.969
I think he's such a hero is that he's the one

01:05:30.969 --> 01:05:33.190
who united all of the brothers and got them to

01:05:33.190 --> 01:05:36.030
be able to work together in the story that I

01:05:36.030 --> 01:05:39.710
grew up with. And he in the sexagromaticist version

01:05:39.710 --> 01:05:42.949
of stories, I should say. And he's the brain

01:05:42.949 --> 01:05:47.349
behind it all. And he is a hero, a battle hero

01:05:47.349 --> 01:05:51.150
as well, but a hero while being disabled. And

01:05:51.150 --> 01:05:53.230
I think that's really important that someone

01:05:53.230 --> 01:05:55.409
like that can rise to that kind of status in

01:05:55.409 --> 01:05:57.489
the Viking society. I think that's kind of a

01:05:57.489 --> 01:06:00.409
key component that he can be so well respected

01:06:00.409 --> 01:06:03.940
and accomplished so much. and accepted as he

01:06:03.940 --> 01:06:05.920
is and he's accepted for his strengths and they

01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:08.500
all recognize that he's an incredible strategizer

01:06:08.500 --> 01:06:11.960
and he can divide the kingdom between them. They

01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:14.420
don't have to go off and fight each other. I

01:06:14.420 --> 01:06:16.940
mean, that's in the sexochromatic story, that's

01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:20.039
kind of his strengths and his whole story arc

01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:21.980
is built around that, that he is the one who

01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:24.239
is the driving force. It's a positive driving

01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:25.860
force. So when you see the other side of events,

01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:28.989
it's like, oh, okay, I understand that. he's

01:06:28.989 --> 01:06:31.190
an evader and all of that, but why is he the

01:06:31.190 --> 01:06:34.730
only one that's villainized? Why is his brother

01:06:34.730 --> 01:06:37.170
not, right? Because to me, he is the driving

01:06:37.170 --> 01:06:39.269
positive force and the brothers are kind of combative

01:06:39.269 --> 01:06:41.489
and want to fight about things. And he's like,

01:06:41.550 --> 01:06:44.010
no, no, listen, we can get along, we can do this.

01:06:44.469 --> 01:06:46.809
So to see him always be the only one that's villainized

01:06:46.809 --> 01:06:48.889
and the other brothers all positive and good.

01:06:49.769 --> 01:06:52.429
That's, I think, where my gripe is and what usually

01:06:52.429 --> 01:06:57.170
gets me the wrong way. the actual hero, and now

01:06:57.170 --> 01:06:59.329
you've butchered him and made the others heroes.

01:07:01.230 --> 01:07:04.809
That's a very good point in terms of how we portray

01:07:04.809 --> 01:07:12.110
people of the past. There's a series that I'm

01:07:12.110 --> 01:07:13.690
assuming you probably haven't watched yet, which

01:07:13.690 --> 01:07:21.909
is Twilight of the Gods. That's a very, very

01:07:21.909 --> 01:07:25.349
strongly flavoured interpretation. I know when

01:07:25.349 --> 01:07:27.409
I showed Caroline Larrington the trailer when

01:07:27.409 --> 01:07:29.250
we were all together in Stavanger for the Marry

01:07:29.250 --> 01:07:31.650
Symposium, she was like, good grief, what is

01:07:31.650 --> 01:07:33.730
this? And I'm like, I know, they've got swear

01:07:33.730 --> 01:07:36.630
words and there's a dragon and there's all sorts

01:07:36.630 --> 01:07:39.469
of it. And it was interesting, but by the end

01:07:39.469 --> 01:07:41.989
of it, I actually quite liked for how strong

01:07:41.989 --> 01:07:45.030
a take they did. They completely, this isn't

01:07:45.030 --> 01:07:47.150
for those who are familiar or more comfortable

01:07:47.150 --> 01:07:50.869
with Marvel's version at all. This is this is

01:07:50.869 --> 01:07:58.070
like mead plus 10 % alcohol in a way because

01:07:58.070 --> 01:08:04.690
they depict the giants Thor and Odin in a very

01:08:04.690 --> 01:08:09.670
antagonistic sense without spoiling too much

01:08:09.670 --> 01:08:12.190
they depict Thor first of all as the bully with

01:08:12.190 --> 01:08:14.949
a hammer that he is and I really salute them

01:08:14.949 --> 01:08:17.170
for that because that comes through in all the

01:08:17.170 --> 01:08:20.479
sagas and I mean they don't make him incredibly

01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:22.659
stupid like some of the Sarkis do, like I always

01:08:22.659 --> 01:08:24.619
remember when he has a shouting match with a

01:08:24.619 --> 01:08:26.979
Jotun across the river but is actually Odin disguised

01:08:26.979 --> 01:08:29.579
just like his son in a very humiliating manner.

01:08:29.779 --> 01:08:32.859
But that's the way Odin works. Odin himself isn't

01:08:32.859 --> 01:08:36.659
a good guy, let alone a good father. But yes,

01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:39.300
that is to be taken with a pinch of salt because

01:08:39.300 --> 01:08:41.539
they do twist and adapt things but they do it

01:08:41.539 --> 01:08:45.659
very heavily and especially with Loki. Loki's

01:08:45.659 --> 01:08:50.710
character has a very new exploration of his character,

01:08:50.989 --> 01:08:55.550
his motives, his agenda and they sum it up beautifully

01:08:55.550 --> 01:08:57.590
with one episode which pretty much focuses him

01:08:57.590 --> 01:09:00.569
which is the scapegoat god and I thought that's

01:09:00.569 --> 01:09:04.670
a brilliant way of looking at it. I do do recommend

01:09:04.670 --> 01:09:08.189
it and I have got plans of I'm currently recruiting

01:09:08.189 --> 01:09:10.949
guests to join me to discuss this for episode

01:09:10.949 --> 01:09:14.949
to be recorded in February next year. If you

01:09:14.949 --> 01:09:17.609
want to binge it over Christmas holidays and

01:09:17.609 --> 01:09:19.430
join the ranks you are more than welcome back

01:09:19.430 --> 01:09:24.689
at any point. My usual recruits have all been

01:09:24.689 --> 01:09:28.250
rather busy including Caroline and Joanne. They've

01:09:28.250 --> 01:09:30.829
got their very busy doing their own books or

01:09:30.829 --> 01:09:34.920
projects. Perfume competition and a writer competition

01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:37.739
in carolines during this and louise dowell's

01:09:37.739 --> 01:09:40.260
been promoting her new book and cat rector's

01:09:40.260 --> 01:09:42.359
only just moved house So it's all a case of everyone

01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:45.119
else. I usually talk to about anything else is

01:09:45.119 --> 01:09:48.000
busy So this is why i'm always looking to get

01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:52.300
new friends new you guys of course Because I

01:09:52.300 --> 01:09:54.399
always say to anyone who meets me and especially

01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:55.800
when they connect with me on this kind of stuff

01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:57.699
because once you meet me You can't really escape

01:09:57.699 --> 01:10:01.939
me much It have to you'd have to like put a law

01:10:01.939 --> 01:10:05.380
a law against me Not talk or message you again,

01:10:05.460 --> 01:10:12.680
but this is what happens. I cannot stop And I

01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.060
pretty much have talked about anything and everything

01:10:15.060 --> 01:10:20.579
else I can think of so Tilda, Cold Halt, I really

01:10:20.579 --> 01:10:23.479
appreciate you joining me on this podcast milestone

01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:27.619
of episode 10. Thank you very much. Everyone

01:10:27.619 --> 01:10:30.380
do go buy her book, Northern Wrath, the first

01:10:30.380 --> 01:10:33.039
in the Hanged God trilogy. It is well worth a

01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:36.199
read. You won't regret it. Gran Harris even rates

01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:39.739
it. So, oh, that's the beautiful edition cover.

01:10:39.739 --> 01:10:42.220
She's holding up every one. I really could have

01:10:42.220 --> 01:10:44.579
that one, but my bookshelf is full. I cannot

01:10:44.579 --> 01:10:47.260
fit it on. But yeah, straight from the press.

01:10:48.039 --> 01:10:50.479
Oh, and it's got the beautiful coloration on

01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:52.159
the edge of the pages with the design. Would

01:10:52.159 --> 01:10:54.039
you put all three together? They make a complete

01:10:54.039 --> 01:10:57.449
picture. Yes. Oh, you're lucky, all for you.

01:10:57.850 --> 01:11:00.869
I know, I've been very, very lucky. I don't think

01:11:00.869 --> 01:11:02.970
even Joan Harris has special editions like that,

01:11:03.029 --> 01:11:06.229
but that one is gorgeous. I get kind of my husband

01:11:06.229 --> 01:11:08.850
if we can just get give me a Becky cave so I

01:11:08.850 --> 01:11:14.329
can have more shelves I don't need this virtual

01:11:14.329 --> 01:11:17.489
background as nice as this Valhalla is I can

01:11:17.489 --> 01:11:20.750
show everyone how much of a geek I am on Vikings

01:11:20.750 --> 01:11:23.029
if I have a lot and I'm admiring your wonderful

01:11:23.029 --> 01:11:25.949
full bookcase behind you Tilda because there's

01:11:25.949 --> 01:11:27.670
a lot of books there and I hope that you've read

01:11:27.670 --> 01:11:31.090
all of them. Oh yeah yeah yeah I'm sure there's

01:11:31.090 --> 01:11:33.670
still to be read but you know that's how it goes.

01:11:35.700 --> 01:11:38.359
Well thanks again for joining me on episode 10.

01:11:38.500 --> 01:11:40.520
I wish you the best of luck in all your future

01:11:40.520 --> 01:11:42.739
writing endeavours and I do hope you get to sail

01:11:42.739 --> 01:11:45.220
with us Eastallion one last time. Thank you.

01:11:45.300 --> 01:11:47.979
Hold onto it as tight as you can because it's

01:11:47.979 --> 01:11:49.819
an experience that many of us would love but

01:11:49.819 --> 01:11:52.500
are unable to have so I'm glad that you, of all

01:11:52.500 --> 01:11:56.119
people, get to enjoy that experience. Maybe write

01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.060
a book about it, I don't know, so I can live

01:11:58.060 --> 01:12:04.050
it precariously by reading about you. Thank you

01:12:04.050 --> 01:12:06.750
very much for joining me, and I hope maybe we'll

01:12:06.750 --> 01:12:08.869
have you on the podcast again soon to talk all

01:12:08.869 --> 01:12:12.949
things NOS. Lovely. Thank you so much for having

01:12:12.949 --> 01:12:13.569
me. It's been lovely.