Welcome everyone, dear viewers and listeners,
to the remarkable special episode 10 of my podcast
Valhalla Conversations, where I, a self -confessed
Viking geek wanting to know all things North
in all forms, both historical and modern, basically
try and interview lots of my favourite authors,
creatives, academics and everything else in between.
For this episode, episode 10, I am delighted
to say that I am joined by Tild Coldholt, the
author of this wonderful book, Northern Ralph,
if it's not obscured by my virtual new background,
because I've relocated to Valhalla, as you can
see everyone. Northern Ralph, which is the first
in her trilogy, The Hanged God series, and I
have read it and I have enjoyed it a lot. I have
lots of questions. And if you haven't read it,
get it on your Christmas list pronto. download
it, borrow it from any good library. They should
have it in. So to slightly embarrass Tilda, I'm
going to read her author profile from the back
of the book, because then I know I'm getting
my facts right. So I will just read it. OK, so
it says, Tilda Coldholt is a Viking. traveller
and a polyglot fluent in Danish, French, English
and Korean. As a writer she is an avid researcher
and this is how she first came to row for hours
upon hours on a Viking warship. We will ask more
about that later dear viewers and listeners.
She loved the experience so much that she has
sailed with the Viking ship the Sea Stallion
ever since. Awesome name, love that name for
a ship. Another research trip brought her to
all corners of South Korea, where she also learned
the art of traditional Korean archery. Born in
Denmark, Tilde has lived in many places and countries,
taking a bit of each culture with her. This is
why she regards herself as simply being from
planet Earth, but she has yet to set foot on
Mars. Noble goals there, Tilde. I hope you get
there one day. Excuse me, and he is currently
based in Southern France, where she writes full
-time, and I know from previous conversations
he has a vineyard of sorts. So you have quite
a life already under your belt. Yeah, yeah, it's
been some busy years. So I guess we'll start
off with the first question that I ask nearly
everyone I have on this podcast is, what drew
you? to Viking history slash mythology in the
first place? What brought you into the fold of
my geekiness? It's a good question. For me, I
think it was the fact that I was born in Denmark,
but I grew up outside of Denmark. So when I was
10, I came to live in southern France with my
family. And when you arrive as a Scandinavian
in a foreign country, you automatically gain
the title the Viking. So I obviously became the
Viking, not really knowing exactly what that
actually encompassed. And so as I got a bit older,
I started to get interested to know more. I started
doing research. And that's kind of what led me
to Vikings and all things North, because I feel
like I really found the thing that I connect
with in Denmark is the Viking culture and that
ancient worldview. So that was something I could
hold onto there. And there are so many interesting
stories and interesting things and facets about
Vikings that I just had to write about it. So
that's kind of it. pretty much how it all came
about. That's wonderful. Well, if there's any
consolation, my nickname in my group of mum friends,
because I have a parent, is the Viking, because
they all know that that's my thing and none of
them know anything. One of my mum friends was
like, who's Thor? How do they know about Thor?
Is he in the books? I'm like, no, no. Oh gosh,
I don't know how to answer that question. Let
me get back to you. And then I will answer it.
Yes, because some of them don't even watch the
Marvel movies, so that's how distant they are.
So this is why I do this podcast hill, because
I need to talk about Vikings with people that
know about Vikings. Unless no one in my family
or immediate friends, and definitely not my mum
network, has that kind of fascination, or at
least not the level of obsession that I nearly
have. I'm just borderline obsessed, really. I
get the feeling, listen, I've been there. and
it's just nice to connect with people who have
the same kind of interest and who can bring something
new because you just talk about things in a different
way. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I am honoured
to have you on board and thank you for agreeing
to do this episode with me. So I guess I'm curious,
which came first? Was it your experience on the
Viking longship or was it writing Northern Wrath?
So it was, it happened simultaneously. So I was
actually writing Northern Wrath and I was halfway
through what today is book one. So back when
I was writing it, book one was actually two books.
And then later on I combined them into one. So
I'd just written the first half and I was still
doing research all the time doing research. And
so I was taking lots of trips to Denmark where
my parents still partly lived and I still had
family up there. And so on one of these research
trips, I went to the Viking Warship Museum in
Roskilde and they have reconstructions of different
Viking ships and one of them is a huge warship
which biggest reconstructed warship to exist
and I saw that they were actively sailing it
and so I thought it'd be cool just to go out
once I'll see if it's even possible and so I
looked it up and they said they were looking
for sailors so I applied and I got in and I became
a well long -term crew member. So kind of a roundabout
way while doing research and then the opportunity
was there. So how many rowers does that warship
need? So that's a very good question because
that's actually how we measure the size of a
warship or a ship is the amount of oars that
it has. So this is a 60 oar ship. So 30 oars
on either side. But when we row, we usually row
on every other oar because it's easier. So that
would be 30 rowers at once usually when we row.
Gosh, and were there many other women like yourself
on board the crew? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
That's where I was, usually women. I mean, you
have to have the good technique. If you don't
have the big muscles, then you have to have the
good technique and that just means that you go
further. So yeah, a lot of very, very cool women
on board, a lot of different kinds of people,
young people, older people, all kinds of professions,
all kinds of backgrounds and reasons for being
there. So it was really... Very Viking, very
diverse group of people, as it would have been
in the Viking age when you get aboard a ship
like that. Wow. Oh, I am actually jealous. But
then I know that I would be rubbish because this
is why some people often ask, why don't you do
Viking reenactment, Rebecca? And I'm like, have
you seen these pipe cleaner animals? I didn't
want to be by the fire just null binding and
cooking all the time but then it's just the amount
of time and effort that some of these guys and
I've spoken to a few in my life and the dedication
they have and also geographically sometimes they're
like the nearest meeting point for such groups
isn't near me. Exactly that's my issue as well
because I have to go all the way to Denmark to
be part of it right so apparently I don't sail
with the ships because it's just too far away
and I don't go to Denmark enough so I can't justify
it. But at the time, I definitely made a lot
of time for many years to go as often as I could
to really be there. If I lived there nearby,
obviously, it would be every weekend, but it's
just not feasible. We both just need to win a
national lottery and just buy a house together
and just live our dreams. That's what we need
to do. Exactly. That's what we want all to do.
Oh, fabulous. So Northern Raft. It is what I
would call Norse fantasy, which to explain to
anyone who hasn't heard the coinage of the word
before, I'm not even sure it's an official term,
but I use it a lot. It's basically fantasy with
Norse elements, whether it's Viking age or whether
it's Norse fantasy, and yours marvelously blends
a bit of both. Because it has got lots of mythology
and cedar magic and runes, and I'm trying not
to split too much. But it's also set in an era
of Viking A to Z, which I don't think is actually
featured, or I've not come across it much in
terms of other popular culture modern mediums,
which is of course the rise of Harold Bluetooth.
So would you mind giving our viewers and listeners
a brief recap of who Harold Bluetooth is and
why we should know about him? Obviously, so Harold
Bluetooth is a very well -known figure in Denmark
even today. He is today considered the first
king of Denmark, the first real king. And he
is the person who is credited as Christianing
the Danes, so as changing their religion, which
today is used as a very positive thing. But in
my book, Northern Wrath, I can't say I'm exactly
on his side. So I take a bit of a different approach.
So I think for a lot of Danes, the portrayal
of him is quite shocking and different. because
he's a very well -known figure that we learn
about in history classes today in Denmark as
well. So he is considered a hero for saving Denmark,
for uniting the land, for Christianing it and
being its first real original king. And I take
a bit of a different view in Northern Wrath in
that, well, if you Christianed all of the Danes,
then you're basically taking their freedom of
religion away from them. Is that always positive?
I don't think so. And the way that he went about
certain things, when you actually look at the
facts, I think are a bit questionable. So my
portrayal of him is a bit different from what
we usually see in history classes in Denmark.
And that's a big reason why I wrote about him.
So I remember being a kid before I was so until
I was 10, I was educated in Denmark. And I remember
learning about her Bluetooth when I was eight
or something like that, and having a visceral
reaction. to hearing about Bluetooth, feeling
like, oh, why is he portrayed as a hero? He took
their freedoms away. He made it easier to invade
the lands. What happened? Their culture disappeared
very soon after that. So when I started researching
Vikings, that memory sparked up again, and I
started looking further into it. And yeah, that's
kind of why I decided to set it in this era.
I think it's always interesting when you see
a shift. It will be a big religious or cultural
shift, and that is definitely what happened during
Herald Bluetooth time. We are seeing Vikings
who were very Norse and had their set of traditions
and culture and believed in their gods go from
this to becoming Christian in a very short period.
Obviously, it was something that happened over
a long time, but the shift is very noticeable
during Herald Bluetooth time. So I was quite
interested by that. Yeah, that's a really interesting
take on it. especially because I know coming
from the UK side of course we had lots of Danish
and Norwegian and probably some Sweden of course
they weren't these nations that exist back when
they started coming over and settling among us
but it was kind of a process of assimilation
that where they willingly took on the Christian
type aspects because they helped with their trade
or their wife was Christian or their daughter
married a Christian that kind of thing where
a tile bluetooth was kind of telling them all
off like I know. You shall stop watching, and
you shall now worship the one God, and I'll be
king of you all, kind of thing. So yes, because
it's a guy I've not read about much in non -fiction.
Certainly, I don't think I've come across him
much in any other of my historical fiction books.
Noob, I think, in my book sales, and pretty much
they're all either before or after his time.
So it's quite refreshing to come across another
new figure in historical fiction. And of course,
you've blended, you've brought their world view
to life wonderfully. with the elements of Norse
mythology and fantasy coming through. And I would
like to say that you set off the ground running
with that beautiful short interdiction prologue
of a chapter with, of course, one of the, one,
there's many, many characters in this book, dear
viewers and listeners. It's a wonderful tapestry
of characters and their storylines blend and
weave in. absolute perfection, there's no getting
confusion at all, it's really well written, is
Einar, who it turns out to have a bit of a berserker
streak inside him. And I like how you explore
that coming through. There's not just kind of
like a mushroom powered frenzy, but something
of a divine spark inside him, which is lately
later explored a bit and answered a bit more
definitely by the end of Northern Attica. Yes,
definitely, definitely. I think that touches
on like a key thing about this book for me is
that it started as historical fiction and then
I started to realize I couldn't write about the
Vikings without writing about the gods because
it was such a big part of who they were and how
they viewed the world. So if they didn't fully
believe in it. it wasn't going to work. And in
fully believing in the gods and writing them
as such, the gods started to appear in the text
and the magic started to appear in the text.
And then I knew I was off in a historical fantasy
world now. So I might as well just commit and
bring the gods in and have a little chat with
them. So, yeah, that's a lot of those elements
like the Berserker elements do have a cultural
part as well. that comes, I think, partly from
the religion. So that's something I definitely
want to drive in as well, to have that magical
component be part of it. Yeah, you've done something
really nice with the mythology that I like and
love and adore in Northern Wrath, especially
when you're dealing with the subject without
spoiling it too much, of mortals that either
maybe not mortal as they appear, or have some
kind of heritage linked to the other beings of
the nine worlds. And that's not quite a demi
-god, but not quite demi -mortal kind of aspect.
Because there's another fascinating character
in there, which is called Hilda? Yeah, Hilda.
And she is what many like to believe is more
common now. It is, of course, a young woman.
of Danish heritage wanting to take up the sword
the axe the shield and get involved with all
the men because of course it's still an issue
of this academic debate but I'm academic so I
can say what I like to a degree no one can quote
me on it well you can quote me but I'll say that's
what I believe and I like how you've presented
that quite well especially with her her father,
who is another figure which has a very, very
interesting storyline, which is her father, Raghda,
who is a bit of a skull, the storyteller. And
his initial introduction as being like, no, Hilda,
you will stay at home, you will not go in the
rain, so I will not have you doing this. And
it's that whole issue of a woman trying to find
her place in the world with what she wants compared
to what society and, of course, the hierarchy
of the masculine. telling her what to do. So
I like how you kind of started quite hot, not
just with Einar's storyline, but with hers as
well. Yeah, thank you. I think for Hilda as well,
and for Rakinah for their dynamic, I think her
father is scared of seeing her die. And that
is actually his main... reason for opposing her
going off. He's afraid of being alone all of
a sudden because her mother is no longer around.
She had a brother who's no longer around. He's
scared of now being possibly all alone. So he's
very visceral in his reaction. And he, you can
say, kind of blocks her in every way that he
can because he's quite influential. So he makes
people promise that they won't take her. And
she obviously thinks it's her right, which if
you believe in a society where women fighters
were around, it's as much her right as it's a
man's right. So for her it's a completely fraught
view of the world that kind of goes a bit with
the new wave of Christianity that's driving through
that definitely does not want her to go on raids
because you're a woman and you shouldn't be on
raids. So it is a bit of that early conflict
coming in, so both the religious conflict and
also the familiar context of, well, Ragnar is
just terrified and he will use any means and
any reason to keep her away from it and he'll
think this is completely unfair. It is bringing
in the family dynamic, but also introducing the
cultural elements of this clash of periods where
something that used to be normal, even just the
fact of being a raider, being a warrior, used
to be much more common. And doing the period
of Northern Wrath is already starting to be a
profession that's not that relevant anymore,
that doesn't really pay, it's difficult, why
would you even do this? And so finding herself
trying to... become it, become a warrior and
keep this tradition alive but against the clash
of a of a changing culture and a changing time.
Well I really liked her and she has I think the
most remarkable storyline I've ever come across
in Northern Wrath and at points you explore different
aspects of the mythology will be the Vikings,
again in ways that have not come across in the
books, especially in terms of how they viewed
aspects of themselves, like like, the way I'm
going to describe it for viewers and listeners
is think of Philip Pullman's Northern Lights
series where in Lyra? Lyra, one of the two names.
I always get confused. She has like a spirit
animal that mimics herself and in this book you
have a character that develops that ability to
see and in some ways dominate, interestingly
enough, their spirit animals. So would you like
to tell us more about that? So this came out
of all of my research about mythology. So the
Vikings did believe in the concept that we today
would probably call spirit animals. For them,
it was called fylgjur or fylgja. And it said
that your fylgja is like your luck. So it comes
to warn you in dangerous situations. So to see
it is not always a positive thing. It can be
a warning that danger is coming. Watch out. They
also had a different kind of spirit animal that
they would see in their dreams. It's not necessarily
the same one. But fylgur are kind of related
to the bloodline as well because they're often
inherited. So they're often an ancestors fylgur
that you then get. So this also comes up in Odin's
wrath. So when I was doing research, I didn't
find a lot on it, but I found enough where I
was like, I have to include this because so many
of the gods also talk about us having animals
with them. Flyers is talked about as always having
cats around. Obviously we have Odin with his
ravens and his two wolves. I was like, there's
something here that I think I could explore and
it would be really fun and interesting to do.
So, yeah, it came up organically as I was writing
Hilda. I was writing a scene that no longer exists
in the book, but she was basically being chased.
And the reason that she knew that she was in
danger was because she saw her flukie for the
first time. And so it kind of sparked from that
and her flukie kept popping up. And then when
I went through, I added more scenes with it and
it became an integral part of the story. It's
remarkable, especially the twist at the end.
It put my heart in my mouth. But yes, that's
all I'm going to say because I don't want to
spoil it. That one actually. So without giving
away what the twist is, I think the reason that
one is in there is actually because of Odin.
So when you read about Odin and his wolves, it
says that the wolves eat for Odin that he never
eats for himself. Interesting. Yeah. So that
kind of sparked the idea in my mind. I was like,
hmm. Maybe there's something here and yeah Well,
you do like in all in the many nonfiction books
I've read and I've still got lots more she says
looking at a very full bookcase and It always
any depictions of Valhalla You certainly always
hear the Valkyries providing like meat and mead
for the warriors But you never really hear about
the gods being served and what the gods apart
from Eden's apples, of course, because that keeps
them eternally young. You do have the tale where,
Locus Aena, where they're eating at Aegis Hall
and they're - Oh, what? Yes! We do eat together,
but we don't necessarily hear them eat around
mortals or around, you know, the dead warriors
or something else like that, yeah. You make me
think now, of course they do eat because, of
course, we have the whole saga of Fafnir and
Regin and they're killing the otter to then eat
it and then when they encounter Scadi's Yes,
Cathy's dad, I forgot his name, but he kept making
the fire too cold so that meat wouldn't cook.
Gosh, yes, that is a really interesting thing.
That should be a topic of research. Someone should
research food in the garden. Which is why I think
it's even more interesting that it's like two
places that I saw it was written that Odin, that
his wolves eat for him. I thought, hmm, that's
an interesting point. And I will definitely come
back. Yeah. Wow. Well, speaking of other beings
and we've talked about the gods and Flüge and
the spirit animals, you do a wonderful almost
deep dive into a remarkable cultured psyche that
you've made not just for the dwarves but for
the giants in Northern Wrath and I really like
how you've depicted them not as the big brutes
but actually kind of like a very clever and intelligent
structured society and the dwarves themselves
I find fascinating. Especially there's one scene
where there's one giant and one dwarf who meets
one of the other characters. There's a lot of
characters in this book. I'm not going to name
names as far as, but they meet them in a certain
underground environment. There's almost a bit
of a a Smeagol and Bilbo exchange of oaths and
riddles. I love that. I thought that that feels
so Norse in itself. Just kind of like making
one's oath or literally and binding it just by
saying it out loud, as well as the aspect of
names and identity and heritage. I thought that
was really well done. Thank you. I think a lot
of those kinds of scenes also come from just...
the memories I have from my childhood and the
north stories that we used to hear and that I
really connected with. Like the passage graves
come up quite a lot and there's so many of them
across Denmark and there used to be even more
a lot of them have been ploughed away by farmers
over the years but there used to be so many of
them and there's still a lot when you go around
out in the in the countryside and just see nature
you'll see these. sudden grave mounds everywhere,
and a lot of them do have passages. So that's
something that definitely came up a lot. So the
environment and then just the tone of it. Because
a lot of the stories that I got told as a child
were troll stories and things like that, that
do have origins in Norse stories. So when you
go back and look at the old Poetic Edda or things
like that, you see, oh wait, I know a modern
version of this that I was told years later,
but it actually originated with the Vikings.
with the Norse mythology and all of that. And
the dwarves and the way they're treated in Norse
mythology definitely comes from that. I have
a lot of stories of those when I was a kid. Trolls,
which are commonly referred as the Jotun, one
aspect of Jotun. A lot of stories about trolls
today in Denmark as well. So that also came back
a lot of them from the old stories of Norse mythology.
Well, having recently... had a bit of a dream
experience in Norway at the Mari Symposium. When
I was in the airport in Stavanger waiting to
fly home, I bought my child a book called The
Little Troll and we read it over a number of
nights because it's possibly too long to read
to her in one sitting, but she enjoyed it. I
kind of always made a bit of a cliffhanger when
we edited it, but there's a point where it comes
across a troll with three heads and one eye and
they swap them between them. I thought this feels
so much like the Norns blended with the fates
from Greek mythology. It was so interesting.
And there was a weird scene where there was a
troll waiting to catch a train in the hope of
saving a princess who would fall off the train.
OK, fair enough. That's cool. Definitely more
Norway, but all across Scandinavia and the Nordics,
I think trolls are very big. And a lot of them
do come back to stories about Jotun. And I think,
I mean, you mentioned Smearval. Tolkien has a
lot, in a lot of his stories, he has things that
originate from back then. For example, the trolls
in his stories in The Hobbit, that turn to stone
when the sunrise comes up, that's a traditional
Norse story about Thor speaking to a dwarf, and
the dwarf turns to stone when the sun comes up.
So I reference that story, but yeah, that's an
ability that's usually associated with dwarfs
in Norse mythology. Well, speaking of... dwarves,
there is a point where a particular character,
I'm not going to say his name, has to free a
dwarf from petrification and he meets a very
interesting character which I can only describe
as being more akin to a vulva. Would you agree
with that? Yes, yes. So what's your take on vulvas
and how did you decide to weave them into your
story? Yeah, so good question. I decided, because
when you read the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda,
they always prefer to the vulva, as if there's
only one. But obviously, when we talk about vulva
today, we also talk about practitioners of saved
magic, so people who were maybe referred to as,
what would you say, magicians or something like
that today in modern terms. Witch is the modern
term I've come across, basically describes a
North Witch, but I could be wrong. Yeah, yeah,
North Witch probably. Yeah, probably what you
would call it in modern terms. The word witch
didn't feel quite right to me personally, but
I definitely wanted to make the distinction between
the one that the gods have relations to. and
the ones that everyday people would go to for
advice or for special runes to help them heal
or something like that. So I made that distinction
by calling them a different name. So I called
the human ones Rune Mistresses and then the other
ones Vulva. But basically they were petitioners
of runic magic. And the Vulva, yeah, exactly,
would be... would be probably the biggest one
since she services the gods primarily, and also
mentioned one of the characters when he is in
need of special healing, I think you could say,
in order to help him. So that is a component
that I think is the main protection of magic.
It's important to understand where that comes
from and that it's part of everyday life for
a Viking, but also for the gods. Vikings do with
what they see in the gods. So what the gods do,
they will do a version of. So I still wanted
to keep the distinction. So yeah, you're right
to that. That's very good. I completely forgot
about the room mistress because she is also a
really fascinating character. You don't see her
that much, but yeah, she's there. All fascinating.
I don't think there's a character we don't meet
that isn't fascinating. Even to talk about one
of, I guess, kind of like the lesser. basically
kind of like the cast behind the prime cast.
I was going to say he's the character of Finn
because of course you think oh he's going to
become the heartthrob of the story but actually
he doesn't and the way you take his journey especially
near the end because of course there is a big
siege slash battle near the end of the book and
would you mind describing the location and what
it's meaning is historically. Of course, so actually
Northern Wrath is based on true history in that
in the year approximately 967, so I say approximately
because there's some debate who put that date
down and who didn't and whether we can believe
him or not, but there are several accounts of
it. there had been a lot of conflicts between
the south, so you can say northern Germany, and
the Scandinavian countries, because the Vikings
would raid the coast. And obviously the southern
kings did not appreciate this, and so eventually
during one summer, as most of the warriors, the
Viking warriors, were away, they sent, the southern
kings sent southerners up. warriors to sack the
villages in Scandinavia. And they got all the
way up to the top of Jutland and then got basically
beaten down by herald lusus it said all the way
down to the frontier and it said that when herald
crossed the frontiers he was now in foreign territory
and he suddenly saw the light of Christ and became
Christian. as if by magic and he returned home
and Christianized everything and yeah everyone
was happy. That's basically how the story goes
in very basic terms. But so I base the whole
story on this principle that the warriors are
way and so that's the opening is that the warriors
are way and the city gets sacked, the village
gets raided and everything kind of starts from
that point on. Definitely. Yeah and then I take
them So for a revenge raid, you can say, down
to the south. So in Germany, where there are
many cities along rivers, where we know that
Vikings have been, whether they were there that
year or not, no one can say, but no one can deny
either. So let's play with the history. So yeah,
that's basically the story. So it all stems from
a real historical event. And then I guess you
can say my wishful thinking, because no one can
prove what didn't happen. but I hope that there
would be some kind of response and so that's
that's kind of what I would think how I think
I would think a Viking or a Norse person in that
situation would react yes we need to honor the
debt and how do we do that and so yeah that's
kind of where the whole story stems from well
it totally fits I mean I'm thinking back to when
Swain Fortbeard heard about his cousin or niece
being killed when I thought I decided to exterminate
all Danes And then, of course, he came over and
that's how we came up with King Canoop. So what's
the name of the city on the coast that they try
and get into? Yeah, it's Magdeburg. So it's Magdeburg.
I didn't want to babble. To be fair, I use the
North way of saying it. So I write it the way
that they used to write it down. Very good. Well,
there is That entire battle is, it feels very
much like I'm watching a movie scene. It's described
and captured brilliantly, both kind of like the
close -up shots when you're really close to the
characters and then kind of like in a broader
view. And of course, that's quite near the end
where a lot of things happen. But between all
this happening in the realm of Midgard, you do
have one character, and I'm not going to spoil
it by saying his name, it's a he. They are stuck
in a really interesting place which is very much
between realms. I'm gonna have to say this because
I can't not say it but the way he finds himself
in an area of pitch blackness, nothing and if
he makes the slightest sound he gets killed in
a hundred different ways, and he must have been,
there were a hundred different ways by the end
of this book. I thought, how many times have
we had to think, okay, how can I kill him now?
How can I kill him now? How can I kill him? Every
time it was a problem, and sometimes he would
die like three times in a chapter and be like,
oh no, I have to come up with another way now.
But that's the challenge of it. So yeah. Did
you have that in mind for having him in that
experience of being between the realms in a very
not nice dimension, we can literally say, or
did it come quite organically? Came as with many
things quite organically. So what happened in
this situation is actually I'd written what used
to be the first book and I needed a different
kind of opening and I couldn't figure out what
the opening should be. And on Christmas Day,
actually, some years back, I all of a sudden
got the spark of an idea and I wrote the first
darkness chapter. So, yeah. And realized that
there was a whole journey here that was unexplored
and that I needed to put into the story and that
would help tell the larger story throughout the
volumes. And so, yeah, that's basically where
it came from. And I think it came from this...
fear that most people have that when you die,
there's nothing. What if there is nothing? And
Ragnar, he's a scholar. Now I've said his name.
I'm sorry, I've spoiled it. Don't worry. It happens
early on, guys. It happens early on. No one knows
how he gets to this dark place yet. But he's
a storyteller. And so he is completely convinced.
He knows exactly where he's going in the afterlife.
Like, there's no question about it. So the fact
of taking a character like that and putting him
in such uncertainty, pretty much in his worst
nightmare. It really appealed to me. And then
still giving him some kind of hope, but just
completely stripping away everything that he
thought was real. while also giving him the hope
that it is real, you just didn't get there and
why didn't you get there? There must be a reason.
So he does have this hope of finding out what
is happening and why, and can I get to where
I'm supposed to be and all of that, which pretty
much takes him through the whole story arc of
the book and the series. Well, you explored really
well through his placement in this darkness.
A, the kind of like the literal fear that all
humanity gets when... we find ourselves in the
unknown and threats everywhere but also when
we have to dig deep and like okay what can i
do instead what can i do different um and in
a crazy way that's a strong theme that comes
through in one or two that i recently did with
my child and i'm not going to spoil that one
um but yes but i really liked how at one point
in the dark was he feels around for things and
he comes across a prophetess's iron rod staff
and I thought oh I've seen that in a museum that's
amazing and I loved how he used it to then try
and take it back a little bit of control, albeit
he's still in a very dangerous situation and
then that's how you open up and explore the aspects
of the gods more and I found it really interesting
how you portrayed Odin and Loki binding their
brotherhood together in that scene which comes
a lot later in the book I thought that's that's
a really interesting take that it might have
been Loki's idea or Odin was trying to do something
but Loki says oh I can help you with that yeah
do something he's always conveniently there to
help out but yeah that was really and of course
they then go slight spoiler they go to the vulva
to bind their blood together and of course you've
got runes riddled pun intended quite literally
throughout this book. I really like that, the
amount of reads, because they're always, at least
in modern minds, always associated with magic.
Modern minds can't perceive them as an alphabet.
They're always in circles or in spells. More
bind rooms is what we see today, which would
have maybe some magical appearance, but it is
also just a way to write that is really convenient.
Yeah, which meant that a lot of people were literate,
because it was quite easy to learn runes. So
you could, you could read. Yeah. I was just going
to say that for me, runes are interesting because
they're both, they both have that mental aspect,
the magic to it, but they also something physical.
So there's something to literally hold on to.
And when you read some of the old sagas and things
like that, sometimes when they do a spell, what
really makes the spell is that they will physically
write the rune on the thing that they want to
put the spell on. For example, if you want a
magic sword, then you will have to physically
carve in the runes that you want on the sword
hilt, because otherwise it's not going to be
transferred into the sword. So it's a physical
thing. It's not just something imagined or just
a symbol. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because,
of course, I'm only very familiar with runes
from having multiple rune sets given to me over
the years, because, of course, that's a nice
gift to give to someone who doesn't know about
Vikings. But, yes, so I would love to know more
about how you then... Because, of course, there
are two other books following Northern Wrath,
and I will find time to actually read them. Yeah,
you mentioned the staff, the staff that Raghav
finds, which is on the cover of the second book,
so that kind of gives an idea of where we're
headed and that it is important, as you say.
Yes, so kind of like, did you then, after writing
Northern Wrath, did you have a bigger plan for
what would you then write for book two and book
three? Yeah, I always had the whole arc, kind
of, I knew sort of where we were headed, so I
knew where we needed to end up. And actually,
the It used to be the last chapter of book three.
I think it's now third to last chapter, but it's
the biggest one of them. It's really the ending
of the book. I wrote that as I was writing Northern
Wrath. So I wrote the ending of book three as
I was writing Northern Wrath. And then every
time I was in doubt about something that happened
as I was writing on, I would go to the last chapter
and I would just flesh it out a bit. And then
I would go back and I would know where I need
to go. So I knew exactly where we were going
to end up. And it's just some characters took
unexpected turns. Hilda, for example, never listened
to me, so she never did what I wanted her to
do. I had a very clear story arc to map out for
us, like, it's going to be great, Hilda, just
come on. And she was like, no, I'm going to go
that way. So yeah, I spent the three books trying
to chase Hilda into doing what I wanted her to
do, and she never did. But I still got her to
the end that I wanted for her, so that's at least
something. So yeah, I very much knew where we
were headed. For the first book, I had everything
mapped out, and then I could see that I could
kind of let go a bit and just follow the characters
and see where they were headed and what they
really, what I wanted to explore. And so, yeah,
but I still always knew where we needed to end
up. So that was always an end goal in mind that
all of the characters had to work towards in
order to get us there. Yeah. I love that. I know
I dabbled, but I say dabbled. I used to be a
writer of sorts back before. University, when
I did do creative writing as part of my English
degree and I did write and Norse stuff was pretty
much in everything. If I had stuck to poetry,
they were all poems with Norse elements. That
was the other way. I wrote horrendous poetry.
I can never do a good not rhyming poem and my
rhyming poems are even worse. But in terms of
short stories and short fiction, I really enjoyed
writing it. But I sometimes, when I did once
have a novel in mind, It was always a delight
when you found that you, as a writer, you know
what you want your characters to do, like your
director on stage, and they decide to basically
ad lib and improvise, and then things take a
different route. That's a really good sign of
how good... this book is, dear viewers and listeners,
that she has such a connection to her characters
that they tell her what to do, not the other
way around. Especially Hilda. But there are a
few characters. There was one character who would
never tell me what she was up to. So this is
not going to be a spoiler for anyone, but it's
Siv. She would never tell me anything that she
was going to do. So every time I knew I had to
go to her, I was like, I have no idea what's
going to happen, but I guess we'll see. She just
went with the flow. Yeah. Very good. Apologies
to any viewers listening. I'm not being beamed
up by aliens. The sun is just coming through
the one window I have opened, so I'm just being
illuminated wonderfully by the sun. This is why
I should have kept the curtains shut. But I thought
daylight, I could be illuminated by daylight,
but this is too strong a daylight. It's the winter
sun. But anyway. It didn't last long, unfortunately,
so that doesn't go well for the weather. It's
fine. For those listening on audio only, you
won't know any different. It's just me, my voice,
not any different. So I'd love to learn more
about your experience on the Sea Stallion because
how long did you spend sailing it? Did you have
to spend time training to go on it? Did you have
long voyages, short voyages? So first of all,
to be a part of the crew of the Sea Stallion
is also to take care of the ship in the winter.
So first time I was there was actually just to
prepare the ship. So we would tar kilometres
and kilometres of rope. We would tar the deck.
We would repaint the outside, which needs to
be done every year because, you know, sea water
kind of digs into it. So there's a lot of maintenance
to be done. So that was the first time I was
there and I met the crew and then went out for
a training sail, which is a weekend. So we would
go out both days and then sleep on the harbour.
First time. So first time I was on the Sea Stallion
was the time that it has sailed in all of its
history with the fewest crew members, which was
very good for the first experience because it
meant that you had to be everywhere. Like you
had to have your post. You had to be there. You
had to do it. There was no other choice. We couldn't
get the sail up without everyone being at the
post and doing it perfectly. So I learned a lot
that weekend and then I just kept coming back
for more. So there would be, there will be Several
training weekends throughout the season and then
when we get to summer there's usually a bigger
sale Which would be anywhere between one to three
weeks And you can sign up for one week at a time
or you can sign up for all three So the longest
I've been on the ship was for three weeks Which
was a great experience. It's always a bit strange
when the one week is over and you get a new crew
because by the end of the week So good. Everyone
knows exactly what they need to do when. And
sailing a Viking ship is that. That is the collaboration
of a lifetime. It is everyone knowing their places,
knowing what to do, when, how, and just doing
it without question perfectly in sync. Even sometimes
when you get really good, you don't even need
to say the word. People already. doing it because
they know it needs to be done. So when you say
with a really good crew, you can definitely feel
it. So when you get that change over after a
week, you feel like, oh, we're starting over
again. OK, OK, OK, we got to get into the routine
with some new people. But it was very rewarding,
very fun. I've been everywhere on the ship. So
there are different posts in different places.
I've been everywhere. So I think my favorite
is probably being the mid -shelter, which is
basically a parrot. A Viking warship is long
and slim. So it's very long. And when you're
out at sea, with the wind flapping, with the
sail, the huge sail in between, you can't hear
from one end to the other. So when commands are
being shouted, you literally cannot hear it at
the other end. So you need a person in the middle
who shouts commands on to where they need to
be. Otherwise you can't communicate. So you need
someone who can communicate between the different
ship parts, especially in like emergency situations,
things like that. You need to have someone who
is quick at it. And so that was really fun because
you got to pretty much dangle over the side of
the ship and shout. And when we were rowing,
you got to sit on the, on the yard and then shout
around the mass and then shout. So that was really
fun. Yeah, and there's just something satisfying
about hearing a command said, repeating it, and
then seeing everyone doing it in unison. That's
really satisfying. That was fun. Yeah, I was
really, really lucky. When I got there, they
all knew that I was a writer. They all knew that
I was passionate about Vikings. And so they really
made an effort to get me around the ship and,
you know, before that I got to experience everything.
Yeah, it was very fun. I think a lot of people
think that being on a Viking ship is a bit different
than what it is. I think a lot of them are shocked
at, for example, how do you go to the bathroom
is one of the most important questions that we
get. How do you go to the toilet? And because
it's just a ship, it's just open. There's no
indoors. There's nowhere at all. So we have the
luxury setting, which means that we have a little
tent that kind of covers you here. And then there's
a bucket. Yes, I was going to say there's always
going to be a bucket. There's a bucket. But the
thing is, the tender only covers you here. So
you're sitting on the bucket and can literally
see a person sitting right next to you chatting
to someone else. So I think a lot of people,
the first time that they're out for a long time
with the ship, that's the main mental break is
like even on the toilet, I can't be alone. Like
I have to be around other people constantly.
And so it's quite interesting to see the first
three days as people are kind of avoiding the
toilet situation. And then on the fourth day,
she's like, I don't care anymore. I've done it
now. But one of the sailors very early on told
me, I have a trick. I'm like, OK, what's your
trick? My trick is I'm scared of the toilet.
So the first thing I go, as soon as we go out,
I go to the toilet and it's done. Then I know
that I can do it and I can do it from there on.
I always thought that was quite funny. But yeah,
it's the... It makes me think of, of course,
the infamous... I was saying, the famous man
on the loo in the Yorvik Viking Museum, because
he felt only up to there. He's very visible,
very much straining the poor guide. You can continue
the conversation, no problem. I mean, that is
the way of it, right? And it goes for everything
when you're aboard a ship, like you're never
alone. There is no place to be alone. You're
always like this shoulder to shoulder with someone
else. Because although it's a long ship, we're
still like 65 people on board. Yeah, so you're
like sitting like this shoulder to shoulder with
someone else You'll be lying down across people
when you when you sleep at night It's literally
shoulder to shoulder and half the crew is still
awake and sailing the ship and things like that
So it is it is a very communal experience and
it would have been exactly the same for the Vikings
I mean they were to ask about sleeping. Yeah,
how did you sleep? So either we went into a port
and we would put up our tents and we would sleep
there. So the Vikings did that a lot as well
because they used to follow the shore. If we're
sailing during night, which is the best times,
then we would sleep on the oars. So you have
the long ship like this and you have the mast
in the middle. So you have both sides, the harbour
and port side. So whichever side that we're sailing
on, the ship will usually tilt. So we'll just
ride. we will put the oars out, we will roll
them out on top. Okay. And we will sleep on that
side by side like this on top of the oars. Wow.
Yeah, usually with some tarpaulins over us and
things like that. Yeah. I just had images of
like the oars being used to make some kind of
tent, literally like you say like kind of like
getting them erect that just. Yeah, I mean that
would be on merchant ships but not on warships,
there's no space for that. It's too narrow, you
can't do it. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So how
long did you go? Well, I know your longest sail
was three weeks, but did you do it for a number
of years or was it just for one year? So I kept
coming back for like three or four years. Last
time I sailed with it was last year, but I think
that might. It might be my last show because
it might be difficult for me to get away now
during the season. But yeah, it's it's been it's
been a continuous thing throughout throughout
the years, which has been really fun. Yeah, it's
really it has a really lovely crew. I mean, that's
the thing that keeps you coming back. Right.
So many different kinds of people, so many nice
conversations to be had. And there's just you
get to know people differently when you're that
close all the time. constantly and you have night
shifts together, you're sitting with a little
cup of hot cocoa or whatever it is you're drinking
and freezing but like, look it's pretty, yeah
it's pretty. That is a different kind of experience,
you're cuddling at night because it's just cold
so you get to know people in a different sort
of way, that's very nice. Wonderful experiences,
wonderful wonderful experiences. So I know you've
got this trilogy under your belt. Obviously I've
come to it a few years too late, but I'm here.
I've read it. I have been there for a lot longer,
so don't worry. But is there anything else you
want to maybe write that returns you to this
world of Viking Age history or mythology? Yeah,
I mean... There are certain what -if ideas that
I quite like. So what I've written since hasn't
been Viking focused. So I feel like that was
something I needed to explore and then there
was something else I needed to explore and I
wrote that. Now I'm writing something else. That's
a science fiction fantasy right now. Science
fantasy is what you call it. But I can see some
somewhere down the line maybe returning to something
Viking inspired or something that jumps off from
this. But for now... I mean, doors are open,
but I am going to be writing other fantasy things,
other historical fantasy things for a little
while, just to explore other interests as well.
And then we'll see, we'll see what, yeah, if
I get around to coming back to it, who knows?
Well, I will continue to shout out about this
trilogy as I read each and every book. Don't
worry, because I can't believe that. The clip
hanging, you've left that book. I can't not read
the next one. That's why I put it on my Christmas
list. But in terms of, of course, us both sharing
a shared interest and passion for this topic,
is there anything that you've read or watched
or played that has Viking elements or elements
in it? Oh, I mean... I tried to consume a lot
of it. I must admit, but I have, but I did, I
did watch, I mean, I was there, I watched Viking.
So that came out when I had written the first
half of the first book. So I started watching
that. and obviously I played Assassin's Creed
Valhalla, which I really enjoyed actually. I'm
so far behind in that one, apparently just roughly
of game time and reading time. I think I got
as far as conquering three counties in England
and that's where my A -ball still is. I quite
liked it because there were certain, sometimes
it would be small things, but I'd be like, oh,
that's an X from there and there and there. And
I would know the reference. So I enjoyed that
aspect of it a lot. It gave it kind of an extra
bonus because I did so much research. I feel
like it paid off. I could name things and where
they were from, which was fun. Yeah, recently,
that's that. Oh, I haven't started yet, but I
just got a hold of Ben Galley's books, which
I hear are North inspired. So I'm going to be
trying those out soon. Yeah, I think that's my
January read. So we'll see how I get along with
that. But yeah, otherwise, yeah, recently. Yeah.
Now, because you want to play the Assassin's
Creed Valhalla, did you play the Viking Age discovery
tour? Which is no. Oh, you need to, it's what
they've put out free. It's like a free DLC effectively.
It's very educational. It has no stealth and
stabbing in it, so you can play it without fear
of death at all. Okay, that's good. I do highly
recommend it for anyone who just wants to know
why I'm so passionate about Viking's beginning,
because it puts you in the position of a Viking.
I think it is. I think it is Harold Bluetooth.
Oh. Okay, I think it is I think you'd there is
a king that basically It must be because I was
father who's a clan chief says, okay, I'm gonna
submit to him. That means your inheritance has
gone either I'm sorry, but I want peace and I
was like No, I will go join Sigurd and we will
go off to England. They will find glory and riches
and death and But yes, there is you've paid you
follow the journey of a North trader who then
decides to leave for England to settle down for
the kingdom from his little farmstead, that kind
of thing. But you will also follow the same path
of an Anglo -Saxon monk, so you see it from both
sides. Interesting, yay! And they do go into
North mythology quite nicely as a third chapter
in the end, and I loved that bit. If you want
to get a sneak peek, please do go to my humble
streaming channel of us, Jamie Charles, gaming
podcast series of Playing with the Norms, because
I have two videos. If you want to play it, you
can watch it, but I do recommend you play it
anyway. It's good fun. It's got lots of fun little
anecdotes, not just about how they make the game
in terms of concept art and voices and using
the runes and that kind of language, but they
also show off different artifacts that they have
genuinely gone to and studied. Like they came
to York, they went to the Orvik Viking Museum.
So I give a big thumbs up for that. As well as
kind of like the museums I'm sure in Denmark
and Norway and that kind of thing to really touch
base with everything Viking. Although I'll always
be miffed about why they decided to make the
north of Anglo -Saxon England in the game always
winter and then everything else summer. It doesn't
work geographically. England's more rainy now.
We don't have snow these days anymore, unfortunately.
That's one of those common misconceptions as
well. If you talk about Vikings, it's got to
be snow, it's got to be mountains. I wrote the
first part of the first book, doing my MA in
creative writing, and one of my tutors wrote
back, I'm missing some mountains, and I had to
tell her, listen, it's set in Denmark, there
are no mountains in Denmark. Just because she
had a search engine. But there are no mountains
in this whole land, like I can't just put them
in there. My closest family love to wind me up
whenever they see something Viking with Hansel
and Rebecca is wearing horns and I tell them
off and I'm like really everyone knows now Vikings
don't wear horns but it's such a it's such a
grafted image it cannot be separated it really
can I mean even children my daughter will grow
up believing knowing that a Viking images is
just of course because that because otherwise
they would just like any other anglo -saxon or
any other kind of like 10th century warrior helmet
yeah in a way it's kind of marketing that happened
later like look vikings are cool look at their
helmets they're fun it might not be true but
like it did give them an identity that makes
them very recognizable to a lot of people. And
I think that's why a lot of people know Norse
mythology today, even though I don't personally.
Like the horned helmets, please no. Please don't
include them in the media. But I recognize that
it had a positive effect, I think, on the interest
of a lot of archaeologists in the period as well,
because it became hip. It became cool, which
is the same with the Marvel things. It became
cool. So now people are interested in it. And
I can only say, yeah, thank you for that. That's
cool. Yeah, I mean it was one question I actually
got asked at the Mary Symposium during my debut
academic presentation about Valkyries in fantasy
fiction because they're my beak, they're my catnip,
anything Valkyries, because they're so unknown
I just love how many... many aspects of them,
but I was asked, like, do you think anyone will
go and read the sagas after reading a Thor comic
or reading a book about Loki or a Valkyrie? And
I'm like, I'm not entirely sure. Some might,
some might not, because I personally, I have
touched on the old sagas. I'm looking at a copy
of Gritte's saga and there's another saga book
over there. But on the whole, I just like all
the different modern interpretations. I like
the and different ways of returning and adapting.
There's so many different books about Loki, and
they're all recognizably Loki, but they're all
unique and different. I think people want more
of that. They want more from, not just seeing
new, but refreshing, original. And that's why,
of course, I loved your book, because it is refreshingly
original compared to all the other Norse fantasy
books I've read. Especially with the elements
of history, I always find that a really careful
balance for you as writers to balance the historical
fiction with the Norse fantasy instead of just
going straight to Norse fantasy. I mean the other
thing that drew me to your book of course was
the wonderful quote from my heroine Joanne Harris.
Because of course her series of Rootlight, that
came out when I was trying to write my now forever
forgotten dusty work in progress novel about
Valkyries being active in York. Because no one's
written about this thing before and then hers
came along and thought you know what she can
have the crown. And plus she knows her things,
and she's as passionate about it as I am, and
I've followed her around ever since. But the
quotes you've got for this book are well -deserved.
They are very well -deserved. Thank you. I've
been so blessed with that. Especially, I mean,
I... So Joanne Harris is a funny one because
The Gospel of Loki had come out a few years before
Northern Wrath came out, and I love that book.
So when I was writing Northern Wrath, I felt
like this pressure, what if people come in and
they don't know anything about Norse gods and
they don't know, like how am I gonna explain
this whole world to them and the lore and everything?
And then the Gospel of Loki came out and I was
like, oh, I'm just gonna tell them go read the
Gospel of Loki and I'm all set. So it kind of
solved this big issue that I had. It was like,
ah, do I have to include all of this? behind
the scenes story in order for it to make sense
or can I take it out let readers figure it out
and those who want to learn more can go and learn
more and I can direct them this way like it just
removed a huge amount of pressure because it
was so well written and such an interesting retelling
of the of the sagas of the of the old no stories
it's kind of weaved together from from locus
point of view and it's pieced together in a way
that it all makes sense and it comes into a bigger
ensemble, you can say, it fits together. Yes.
I think she did a wonderful job on that. So,
yeah, I felt very, very, very blessed, first
of all, to have that book come out from her.
And then she goes and reads it and gives me a
quote that was really, really nice. I found really
lovely. She is awesome. She's awesome. I'm quite
shocked in that I know she lives somewhere in...
my neighborhood area of West Yorkshire. I just
don't know where obviously because I'm not going
to go there. But I've went there a couple of
times on this podcast talking about speaking
of, that has reminded me actually, have you come
across the Rikener Rock series on Netflix? I
have not watched it but I have seen it recommended
to me. I recommend it too. I think you'll like
it. I've been hearing about it a lot recently.
I think there are three, four different people
who recommended it to me recently. Well, I got
Joanne Harris and Professor Caroline Larrington,
who of course is another academic top hat in
the world of Norse mythology. And we had a really
fascinating podcast discussing and reviewing
all three seasons. So don't watch that episode
because it'll spoil it for you. after you've
watched all three seasons but yes make that on
your Christmas bench list because it is it's
it's wonderful compared to kind of like the marvel
or gods turning up in historical dramas like
Vikings kind of thing because I think that's
the one thing that lured me first about the Vikings
was where there's a seat like I think it's in
the intro where there's Stephen the battlefield
and of course the tall figure with a big rimmed
hat yeah and slush around walking around. It's
one series that I didn't quite follow Viking
because I think I got to season four after Rolo
had settled down in Normandy. Yeah, I kind of
fell off at that point as well. I think I came
back to it and finished it some years later.
Personally, and this is a gripe I have both with
that series and with the Assassin's Creed one
actually, is their interpretation of Eva the
Boneless because I've read the I wrote the historical
accounts of Saxo Grammaticus, which tells the
histories of Denmark. And I grew up with that
version of it. And to me, Eva, the boneless is
the biggest hero of all. And so seeing him portrayed
as a traitor, as a mean person, as a horrible
human being, it just feels so wrong. I feel so
wrong whenever I see it. So that is unfortunately
a gripe. I can have with a lot of things because
I've done so much research that when I have an
opinion of something and I see it, ah, it's completely
the opposite way, it's just difficult to accept
and swallow. But especially Eva because he is
my biggest hero in all of the Viking stories.
He is the one I love the most. Interesting. Yeah.
So yeah, the version of him in Saxochromaticus
is so different from anything that's portrayed
in modern media. I know obviously modern media.
probably relies more on the English language
accounts of it, which obviously we'll see him
as an intruder. That's a real good point about
the sources and what's used and what's not behind
all these things. I mean, I think that's why
I was impressed when I did play the Viking Age
tour of Fastid's Creek Valhalla, because it showed
how international they went, especially around
Scandinavia and not just on the UK side of things.
really capture the big impact on the cultural
and the movements and exploration of the Vikings
through their artifacts and research. Yeah, and
they went to the Mediterranean Sea. I mean, they've
traveled so far. Yes, yes. It's questionable
how they present that in the sequel series, Vikings
or Halle, because that is a real mishmash of
timelines. And I've had three really interesting
episodes. The series is a mismatch of 300 years
of history snapped into one. Yeah, I mean, a
lot of me and my guest panels all agreed at the
end of every episode recording reviewing each
season. Why didn't they just focus on one character
and do that as a season and do another character
in another season? Because there was enough drama,
genuine drama in all three of them to not merge
them together. Exactly. I agree. I agree. I agree.
I agree. It was one of my biggest gripes as well.
But then I get it. Like you want to convey a
story and you're worried that if you switch characters,
like main characters, then your audience is not
going to follow you. Like I get the reasoning.
I just don't love it. Yeah. I think they really
were trying to have their cake and eat it. Yeah.
And that's why it got cut so short being season
three was last season, but the way they ended
season three, they clearly had drive or plans.
for season four which i think actually would
have been interesting to see because that got
onto what i call the real game of thrones of
the 11th century because of course canute eventually
he does he does die in season three sorry spoilers
he does die but historically he also dies yeah
i'm just gonna say historically they're all dead
now a lot of them were dead when they should
have should have been and a lot of them were
little when yeah should have been little but
they were all grown up and in the ground like
harold Harder or harder, I'd be like, why, why,
you're not, no you're not. And then of course,
Leif and, but yes. But in terms of heroes, going
back to your point about Ivar the Boneless, like
for me, it's always been, well, it came through
quite late through a lot of reading, but it came
down to Queen Emma of Normandy. Well, Queen Emma
of England, but she wasn't Normandy, Emma of
Normandy. And of course, her then second husband
and father of her son, Penute, because I thought
he is, of course in England we have the old,
dusted off story of him trying to turn back the
tide and get his feet wet, but he did so much
more, so much more, and I did like how in the
series Vikings of Halle they showed him meeting
the Pope, even though that was a really unconventional
meeting of the Pope and involved someone dying
and someone getting hit in the head in the box,
and it totally wouldn't have happened. I think
they would have all been arrested and put in
prison if they had murdered that person. But
yes, I do think they showed him in a better light.
Oh, I think I still think he came across as a
villain, like he came across as a person, which
to me feels really off just because the version
of events that I grew up with and the reason
I think he's such a hero is that he's the one
who united all of the brothers and got them to
be able to work together in the story that I
grew up with. And he in the sexagromaticist version
of stories, I should say. And he's the brain
behind it all. And he is a hero, a battle hero
as well, but a hero while being disabled. And
I think that's really important that someone
like that can rise to that kind of status in
the Viking society. I think that's kind of a
key component that he can be so well respected
and accomplished so much. and accepted as he
is and he's accepted for his strengths and they
all recognize that he's an incredible strategizer
and he can divide the kingdom between them. They
don't have to go off and fight each other. I
mean, that's in the sexochromatic story, that's
kind of his strengths and his whole story arc
is built around that, that he is the one who
is the driving force. It's a positive driving
force. So when you see the other side of events,
it's like, oh, okay, I understand that. he's
an evader and all of that, but why is he the
only one that's villainized? Why is his brother
not, right? Because to me, he is the driving
positive force and the brothers are kind of combative
and want to fight about things. And he's like,
no, no, listen, we can get along, we can do this.
So to see him always be the only one that's villainized
and the other brothers all positive and good.
That's, I think, where my gripe is and what usually
gets me the wrong way. the actual hero, and now
you've butchered him and made the others heroes.
That's a very good point in terms of how we portray
people of the past. There's a series that I'm
assuming you probably haven't watched yet, which
is Twilight of the Gods. That's a very, very
strongly flavoured interpretation. I know when
I showed Caroline Larrington the trailer when
we were all together in Stavanger for the Marry
Symposium, she was like, good grief, what is
this? And I'm like, I know, they've got swear
words and there's a dragon and there's all sorts
of it. And it was interesting, but by the end
of it, I actually quite liked for how strong
a take they did. They completely, this isn't
for those who are familiar or more comfortable
with Marvel's version at all. This is this is
like mead plus 10 % alcohol in a way because
they depict the giants Thor and Odin in a very
antagonistic sense without spoiling too much
they depict Thor first of all as the bully with
a hammer that he is and I really salute them
for that because that comes through in all the
sagas and I mean they don't make him incredibly
stupid like some of the Sarkis do, like I always
remember when he has a shouting match with a
Jotun across the river but is actually Odin disguised
just like his son in a very humiliating manner.
But that's the way Odin works. Odin himself isn't
a good guy, let alone a good father. But yes,
that is to be taken with a pinch of salt because
they do twist and adapt things but they do it
very heavily and especially with Loki. Loki's
character has a very new exploration of his character,
his motives, his agenda and they sum it up beautifully
with one episode which pretty much focuses him
which is the scapegoat god and I thought that's
a brilliant way of looking at it. I do do recommend
it and I have got plans of I'm currently recruiting
guests to join me to discuss this for episode
to be recorded in February next year. If you
want to binge it over Christmas holidays and
join the ranks you are more than welcome back
at any point. My usual recruits have all been
rather busy including Caroline and Joanne. They've
got their very busy doing their own books or
projects. Perfume competition and a writer competition
in carolines during this and louise dowell's
been promoting her new book and cat rector's
only just moved house So it's all a case of everyone
else. I usually talk to about anything else is
busy So this is why i'm always looking to get
new friends new you guys of course Because I
always say to anyone who meets me and especially
when they connect with me on this kind of stuff
because once you meet me You can't really escape
me much It have to you'd have to like put a law
a law against me Not talk or message you again,
but this is what happens. I cannot stop And I
pretty much have talked about anything and everything
else I can think of so Tilda, Cold Halt, I really
appreciate you joining me on this podcast milestone
of episode 10. Thank you very much. Everyone
do go buy her book, Northern Wrath, the first
in the Hanged God trilogy. It is well worth a
read. You won't regret it. Gran Harris even rates
it. So, oh, that's the beautiful edition cover.
She's holding up every one. I really could have
that one, but my bookshelf is full. I cannot
fit it on. But yeah, straight from the press.
Oh, and it's got the beautiful coloration on
the edge of the pages with the design. Would
you put all three together? They make a complete
picture. Yes. Oh, you're lucky, all for you.
I know, I've been very, very lucky. I don't think
even Joan Harris has special editions like that,
but that one is gorgeous. I get kind of my husband
if we can just get give me a Becky cave so I
can have more shelves I don't need this virtual
background as nice as this Valhalla is I can
show everyone how much of a geek I am on Vikings
if I have a lot and I'm admiring your wonderful
full bookcase behind you Tilda because there's
a lot of books there and I hope that you've read
all of them. Oh yeah yeah yeah I'm sure there's
still to be read but you know that's how it goes.
Well thanks again for joining me on episode 10.
I wish you the best of luck in all your future
writing endeavours and I do hope you get to sail
with us Eastallion one last time. Thank you.
Hold onto it as tight as you can because it's
an experience that many of us would love but
are unable to have so I'm glad that you, of all
people, get to enjoy that experience. Maybe write
a book about it, I don't know, so I can live
it precariously by reading about you. Thank you
very much for joining me, and I hope maybe we'll
have you on the podcast again soon to talk all
things NOS. Lovely. Thank you so much for having
me. It's been lovely.