Welcome, dear viewers, to episode six of Valhalla
Conversations, where I, my self -confessed Viking
obsessive, Norse mythology geek, interview my
favourite Norse creatives. And one of my special
guests today, I'm delighted to announce, is Tessie
Grattan, one of my favourite authors of the United
States of Asgard series. Here are her lovely
books. Just peeking up behind me, all four, anthology
of short stories as well. So yes, do go buy them,
borrow them, download them, listen to them on
audio podcasts. I also have done that and it's
equally still as good as reading the book. So
I've invited Tessa here to talk about her wonderful
books, United States of Asgard, and I guess I'll
hand it over to you, Tessa, because if someone's
just heard that name, United States of Asgard,
yep, Asgard, not America people, Asgard. How
would you explain the universe that you encapsulate
so well in your books to new potential readers?
Sure, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm
really excited to be here talking about this
series. It's been a long time since I've focused
on it, so hopefully I'll remember everything
accurately. The United States of Asgard is an
alternate America, an alternate history where
when the Vikings first came to North America
and landed on Newfoundland, they stayed instead
of leaving again. And so it was the Vikings and
their gods and monsters who are very real because
this is a fantasy. They are the ones who essentially
conquered and colonized North America. So that's
the initial world pitch, I guess. And the first
book follows a young man who's 17, his name is
Soren, and he is a berserker. And he does not
want to be because his father was also a berserker.
And when Soren was about 10 years old, his father
lost control of his berserking frenzy in a shopping
mall and killed 13 or so innocent people. And
so Soren really fights the frenzy that he feels,
and he does not trust Odin, who is supposed to
be the god he is dedicated to. Well, if that
hasn't hooked in dear viewers and dear readers,
I don't know what will. Hopefully the rest of
this episode will indeed convert you all. Because
I personally, having read this as it was like
some years ago when I first read this, in fact
Facebook reminded me yesterday that yesterday
was the day I ordered it on Amazon. So that's
how long ago it was. It's now a Facebook memory,
but it's always been on my shelf of favourites,
always has been. But it's a world that I find
so rich, so incredibly deep. I think I once wrote
to a friend as if you know how deep the world
is for Lord of the Rings. This is how deep Tessa's
gone with the world of the Knights of Asgard
because it's so believable. It's so normal, yet
not normal, but not in a startling, mind -bogglingly
alien way. for example, The Gods Are Real, you've
got actually them kind of working in collaboration
of sorts with the humans. I know when I reread
both The Lost Sun, which is the first book about
Soren, and the second book, The Strange Maid,
which is my personal favourite because it's got
Valkyries in it and that's like my catnip. I
mentioned the word Valkyries and I'll go for
it, which is about Cygni. You've kind of got
how I can't remember which president it was.
I think it began with Thomas Jefferson, maybe
not Thomas Jefferson, but he had almost like
a riddle contest with Odin and that's how the
gods ultimately lost their overwhelming power
because the gods actually lost a riddle match
to a human and that's why they work together.
There's so many aspects to your world and I guess
my first question is Where did these ideas come
from? How did you decide to rewrite history effectively
and remake the world in this most wonderful way?
It is both really, of course, like long and complicated
and also very, very simple. And so I'll tell
you the simple version first. It was when I was
in graduate school, so I was 24. And I was really,
really angry all the time. I'm still very angry
person. I like to argue. But this was during,
it was 2004, 2005. And so it was really in the
immediate aftermath of 9 -11 and the Iraq war
and the 2004 election, which was when George
W. Bush was re -elected. And it was really awful
for its own really specific reasons. And I was
in graduate school studying public policy and
gender. And I was trying to write a thesis about
the way the culture wars in America were influencing
policy, particularly from a gendered lens and
about like sexuality. And I was just so angry.
And also, I'm the kind of person who, you know,
when people say, well, when you go to dinner
with strangers or friends, the two things you
should never talk about are religion and politics.
But those are the only things I ever wanted to
talk about. And so I was I was just thinking
about when I started writing books. I was thinking
about how do I write a book about America, about
the religion and politics and the way those things
in America are so fundamentally linked, even
though we pretend that they're not, without people
being angry at me all the time. Like, I can't
criticize Jesus, but you know who I can criticize?
Balder. You know, like I, so I basically came
up with this idea to write and talk about the
kinds of things that I wanted to analyze in America
from a fantastical point of view. And that is
the, like that is what made me start down the
road. So that's the simple, I know I just talked
for like four minutes and that's really interesting.
At the same time in graduate school, I was very
unhappy with the program that I was in and I
was really frustrated with not being able to
find mentors who were interested in the aspects
of gender studies and feminism really that I
was interested in writing about and studying.
And I hit this point where I was like, I need
to take some classes that have nothing to do
with my degree. And so I looked at what they
offered, like what random things do they offer
here that I'm interested in. And I found a professor
who was teaching old English and I could take
three trimesters. We were on a trimester system
there. The first two were learning the ins and
out of the language and learning how to translate.
And then the third trimester was focused just
on translating Beowulf. And I was like, this
is it. This is the most niche English thing I
can think of to do that they offer here. And
so while all of this was going on, while I was
being really angry at politics and trying to
figure out my life and what to write about, I
was learning how to translate and read Old English
and then did a real deep dive into beta wolf
itself and that really led me down the path that
would eventually bring me to Norse mythology
and the history of how the cultures of, you know,
the Norse cultures really influenced from the
UK and then into America. And I mean, you can
really straight line from the war culture of
the ancient North to the war culture of 2005
United States of America. And the things that
the poetry really highlights are things that
I was seeing the politicians in the news highlighting,
you know, the way that they talk about fallen
warriors and warriors going across the sea to
fight somewhere else were directly reflected
in these you know 1600 year old poems so it really
was it seemed very obvious to me at a certain
point that I could write about America on every
level from a fantastical like viking ultimate
music history perspective. So it was very organic
in a lot of ways. Well that sounds like a remarkable
opportunity and I know from rereading Strange
Maid about Signe, the young want to be Valkyrie
who gets, I keep saying that word on Valkyrie
not Valkyrie, I've always pronounced the I more
than the E and I know that's wrong but it's just
a habit I need to learn, just learn. But she
gets given a basically a prophecy supposedly
by Odin left on the world tree where she first
meets him when she's grieving for the loss of
her parents and they have a strange connection
almost and he challenges her to become the ninth
valkyrie of the tree because there hasn't been
one for some time and it's really only as you
learn through the books learn the amazing history
that you've given. this amazing present alternative
present -day world that you've given where the
Valkyries have been involved in all sorts including
like the civil war over the lots of slavery.
I thought it was really interesting how when
you learn about that through the characters they
take it's like it's Odin wanting to keep the
old ways it was Thor and this one renegade of
sorts Valkyrie who wanted to say that no we just
can't keep keeping them as slaves it's just kind
of like wrong. Because, of course, I'm working
on a very secret project. I can't quite tell
you all yet, dear viewers. Tessa and one, maybe
two other three people know. Very small, very
small circle, but I'm waiting for it to be more
officially confirmed. But it is closely linked
to that particular book, and I'm not going to
say why. But even though I thought I was looking
for one thing in your book, the Beowulf theme
kept coming through more and more clearly. And,
of course, you do seem to almost... reenact it
within that alternative context which of course
I love because I've never studied Beowulf. I
remember seeing the Beowulf CGI film with Angelina
Jolie and the other British guy that I can't
remember the name of that is in all the films.
That's the only kind of like version I know and
even that gave me nightmares because their version
of Grendel was so grotesque it was just oh it
just put me right off but I know the basics of
the story although There was the lady that you
tend to pick upon through the character of Cygni
in that book. It begins with a V and you're going
to have to pronounce it for me if you can remember
Tessa because I want to say Belethal but I'm
not sure if that's it. That is how I changed
it for the book. That would be an older version
of it. Her name in Beowulf is Welthal. It's W
-E -A -L, then I think the thorn. But so it's
the old English version. So her name in English
actually starts with a W, which is very common
when you see the transition from the Icelandic
languages when it becomes English. I can't remember
what the transition is called. But, welk fél.
is her name, is the wife of King Hroskar in Beowulf.
And so that is the character that I played with
the history for The Strange Maid. And it is Val
Fiel in the book, my book. Yes, it's certainly
more pronounceable. It certainly makes sense
when you think about how the Anglo -Saxons called
it all Wodan. instead of Odin. Yes, that makes
sense. But yes, and that particular book, of
course, Cygni is given this challenge. She's
got to fulfil this prophecy, but it's also a
bit of a riddle at the same time. And she really
struggles with it. She ends up putting it down.
And then she comes across a character called
Ned the Restless, I want to say. I can't quite
remember. Spiritless. Spiritless. That was it.
Sorry. It's been a while. I have read it, Davey,
I have. It's just been a few weeks since. And
as I am a mum, my memory is shot. All I can remember
is toddler things and not anything else. But
yes, I liked his character simply because it
was, it was almost like a nice homage to the
work and efforts of the Scalds of that era and
the work that they did capturing these stories
and telling them to audiences as well as kind
of like honour art. honorific poetry for kings
and queens and great warriors and the like and
of course who knows what scowls tell Beowulf
back in the day because often no one knows who
wrote Beowulf which is the greatest mysteries
of our time I think. But I really liked it and
of course Soren does actually make a return.
from book one into book two and of course book
three which is the apple throne which is about
the other character which we haven't yet mentioned
which does also feature in the first one so there's
a nice flow of characters from one to the other
dear readers you don't always have to know them
all is Astrid and she herself has quite an amazing
backstory as a vulva as a CRS or being the daughter
of one who then mysteriously vanishes. and I'm
trying not to spoil it here but at some point
the goddess Freya gets involved. Now this is
the one thing I remember picking up with you
way back in the day when I first read it was
how you've adapted Freya to also kind of represent
the goddess Hel as well because you've got a
good number of the key gods in there but of course
there's quite a broad pantheon. Quite a broad
pantheon. But I found your... version of Freyja
quite interesting and almost refreshing in that
she has got this darkness to her from not just
kind of like being the goddess of the dead to
a degree but of what she can do and influence
and foresee that Odin can't. So how did you kind
of address or create that wonderful balance or
imbalance of gods and goddesses? Keeping in mind
that I did most of this world -building work
at least 15 years ago. Yes. That's fine, that's
fine. Don't worry, we all forget things. A lost
son came out in 2011. And I'm sorry, in 2013.
And so the bulk of the work that I was doing
developing the world was probably between like
2008 and 2013. So I did a real like several years
of slow deep dive into the history and archaeology
of like Norse mythology. So I read everything
I could get my hands on, of course, the epic
poems and everything that was written by Snorri.
Yes. I read all of these translations, everything
I could get my hands on, and I also read a bunch
of archaeological books by people who have actually
gone and looked at, okay, here's what we actually
think. the culture was like and here's how we
can trace like the first time we think Odin was
mentioned on a rune stone and how old these different
gods seem to be and from what I remember uh Snorri
Sturlson basically made up 80 percent of what
we think of as Norse mythology. And of course,
he didn't pull it out of nowhere. There would
definitely have been lots of stories and things,
but he consolidated most of the big epic stories.
And he's the one who is like Odin is the all
father and Loki is a boy and things like that.
And like, if you go back, you know, a thousand
years before he was alive, there was you know,
there were some theories that Odin and Loki were
actually the same trickster god figures. And
that there was the goddess of the underworld
who was also a god of fate who became Freya,
you know, as these things were developing. And
of course, there's no way to really trace it
because it was an oral culture. And, you know,
what we have written down before Snorri came
along are, you know, death monuments and good
luck charms and funeral rights, you know, things
like that. And so, you know, it's really hard
to accurately say, well, this is how this God
developed and these are how these stories developed.
So it was really very easy to come in and be
like, well, this is what I want. And it could
be true. This could be how these gods developed.
And so that's what I'm going to do. And I think
Hell, the character, the goddess, was a very
late addition to the campaign, from what I remember
of my research. um and so it you know there would
have Freya was a much older um character and
so that was the basis of why I ultimately did
that and also because she's connected to you
know half of the dead um in the more popular
mythology Yes, that's all I've ever read is that
not only is she not of the Azir which Odin is,
but she's also of the Bedir which is possibly
some kind of ancient tribe that does a war and
they just happen to get swapped in a prisoner
of war kind of swap exchange or hostage exchange,
but of course the Azir got the wrong end of the
bargain because they sent Mimir back and Mimir
often came back as a head. There you go. Spoilers,
people. But Min Min. Min Min isn't quite in the
books, but because there's just so many north
guards. But kind of like speaking of kind of
like how, of course, Frey has her own kind of
like cedar magic in the... I want to say canonical,
but kind of like the set lore that we all know
almost is well written and recorded about kind
of thing. It kind of also makes sense for her
to have that kind of like prophetess, CRS type
role. It really suited her, I thought. and as
much as Frey has also talked about kind of the
goddess of beauty and love and sexual manifestations
and all sorts kind of thing I always thought
she must have some kind of maybe a dark feature
because otherwise why... I just think of her
as a very strong woman trying to survive in a
very male -dominant panic, because a lot of the
gods are gone. And as you mentioned, kind of
like Snorri Snilson, I always remember another
favourite North Craters from mine, Joanne Harris,
went to a talk of hers at Barnsley Museum in
my local neck of the woods in the UK, and I remember
her saying that it's really unfortunate that
Snorri seems to have written more stories about
the male gods than the female gods, and there's
probably a reason for that. Whether he was intentional,
because it seems not quite impossible, almost
unfair that there were lots of oral stories about
the male gods and not equally enough oral stories
about the female gods because the only female
story we know about Freya is her love tryst with
12 doors to get the bridging of men necklace
and that's about all we know and of course Eden
became an apple, no an acorn and was taken off
by Loki. weird betrayal of the gods then brought
back again and that's and Sif had a haircut they
all seemed to have like bad stories whether the
victims more than kind of like the heroes. I
say heroes in a very loose sense because I remember
reading one legend where it's just Thor and Odin
disguised as a troll and they're both on opposite
sides of the river and they're both having a
swearing oath making match at each other. And
there was no point to that legend at all. I didn't
even find it funny. I thought it was rather the
minimality of the voting to kind of belittle
his one, well, one of his many sons in that manner.
But the one thing that I definitely do want to
ask you about, or at least kind of elaborate
my own thoughts and experience of, is particular
in terms of... Strange Maid is how well you've
not just explored but expanded upon the role
of the Valkyries in all this, because they're
some of the most minor characters in the pantheon
and so little is known about them besides a set
of names and that they collect the dead. Their
name means chooser of the slain, although it's
always been interesting I found from all the
other Norse fantasy books I've read, whether
they choose the dead at the point of battle or
they go and collect them after the after the
person has died kind of thing. So it's kind of
like a before or after selection. And of course,
they glorified. beer maidens in Valhalla bringing
all the beer and ale and food around, kind of
thing. But I really liked, and of course as a
fan of Valkyries, just as a character of all
sorts of secrets and mysteries, appreciated the
way you've made them so active in the almost,
I want to say priestess -like role that they
have in their set temples of sorts and shrines
around the United States of Asgard and their
role with the dead, even though they're no longer
invisible to mortal eyes they're very visible
now because you don't see them just when you're
dead you see them when you're alive because you
can go and pray for your departed loved one in
a shrine and have a valkyrie bless you i really
really loved that whole concept it made so much
sense and especially kind of not just having
them as individual priestesses but also having
them as a council so they kind of like advise
the human people such as the president but also
kind of like advised Odin because one thing that's
always struck me in particular from coming across
the one Valkyrie we know of from the text, the
Norse text, is the Volsung saga and Brynhildr,
whether she's kind of like briefly mentioned
as a Valkyrie for disobeying Odin and thus she's
been put on a bed and been waiting to be picked
up by some fella who just happens to be Sigurd
the Dragonslayer, is whether they are really
truly subservient to Odin or whether they do
have some of their own independent agency. and
that's why I loved interviewing Kate Hatfield's
previous episode dear viewers go watch it after
this one of course after this one because her
retelling is equally amazing and explores the
world of the Valkyries equally in all in unique
ways I've never come across the same author or
different authors have Valkyries in the same
way at all they're all different these aspects
but I just really appreciate it yours just wanted
you to know that. Thank you. I don't know how
much you dived into the whole Valkyrie role and
the solidification of what they did or what they
didn't do, but I really, really liked your interpretation.
Oh, thank you. I, when I was still trying to
get published for the first time, I was thinking
about the Norse mythology and, you know, the
war culture, all these things that I've already
discussed about here and Beowulf. And I started
writing a historical retelling of Beowulf that
followed Walthau's point of view from birth to
death. And it was like this big epic thing. I
ended up writing about 60 ,000 words of it. which
only got to like right before Grendel was even
going to show up. And the way that I was developing
her was I that's when I really dug into the like
historical details and ancient ideas about what
it might have been like actually living in Sweden
in you know the year 400. And so I was thinking
about what kind of roles priestesses might have.
And in addition to the seething, the prophecy
stuff, you know, you have the wandering prophets,
I thought, well, obviously this is a, there has
to be a death cult. Most, most ancient. cultures
had some kind of death cult. And, you know, Odin
and the Valkyrie are really ripe for that. And
so that's really when I was making all these
decisions about what I thought real human women
in particular, like how might they have created
the mythology of the Valkyrie, like as servants
of the gods, as avatars, even people who ride
on wolves invisibly over a battlefield. What
could be the real women who inspired that kind
of thing? And so, you know, I was writing a whole
book about Walthau, basically. And I put that
down for a lot of reasons. And when it came time
to really be working on the United States of
Asgard trilogy, I knew I wanted the second book
to be about a teenage Valkyrie, basically. And
so I dragged up all of that stuff. And that's
really why The Strange Maid is the book that
it is, because I tried to write a retelling of
Beowulf that took place during the time that
Beowulf, if any of those things actually happened,
probably would have happened around then, and
made it modern. Like what would a modern Valkyrie,
what might her opinions be about the stories
of Beowulf and Valkyrie from back then? You mentioned
the covenant already, the Thomas Jefferson riddled
ocean during the establishment of the United
States of Asgard as a government and its own
nation. And one, and that is why the gods have
these rules about when they can and can't interfere
and how they can and can't interfere with the
destiny of the nation. And that is why the Council
of Valkyrie exists in the United States of Asgard
because they are literally the go -betweens from
the human government and the Asgardian government.
It's not, you know, they're not really a champion,
I suppose. And so they do act as representatives
from the humans to the gods and from the gods
to the humans. So they really walk that line
between divinity and mortality. There are supposed
to be nine of them scattered across. There is
the Valkyrie of the East and the Valkyrie of
the West and the Valkyrie of the Lakes and the
Valkyrie of the Rock and things like that. So
I cannot remember what the actual question was
anymore. It was more just me fangirling about
how wonderful I loved your interpretation of
Valkyries and how you set them. But yes, I mean,
to pick up on the point that you made about how
they do walk that line between mortality and
divinity and how they go between, I think that's
one thing that so many of the authors that I've
written involving Valkyrie characters have picked
upon that they do often end up becoming almost
like the bridge if not the defender of humanity
very much like Thor in Marvel comics and he is
in a very heroic dramatic over -the -top sense
doing the same thing but a lot of the Valkyrie
protagonists I've come across are often trying
to prevent the gods manipulating humans doing
something that's unfair to the humans or if they
witness a death that is wrong, they will then
try and solve it or correct it or bring honour.
They're often in between but not quite, not always
by default siding with the gods even though stereotypically
mention Most people on a very low level know
that it's Valkyrie's and then Odin, because of
course it's Odin who gets the debt. Not many
people realise that Freyja gets half the debt,
and I remember from my very, very, very young,
juvenile days as a wannabe writer, wannabe author,
never did quite make it to J .K. Rowling level,
but here I am, hey! It's not too bad. I wrote
a very short flash -fix and piece of Freyja walking
a battlefield with Odin, selecting her debt.
and I made her quite dark and sinister in that
she'd almost like lick the blood off a warrior
and just kind of put it on her tongue, almost
like vampire -like. That's why her and Odin kind
of like were just, they have that, because they're
almost two powerful beings in their own right,
I think, because of course she has the cedar
magic. Odin had to learn that from her, he didn't,
all he had was the runes. So they both kind of
have their own own stance and their own plinth.
And I've completely forgotten what I was going
to say. But yes, I think you've matched what
my own thinking and my own theories and my own
experiences of, and of course my own idealistic
view of Valkyries is that they are the bridge
in between. And they can sometimes, in some cases,
in a lot of fictional universes, as well as of
course with Brunhilde, choose to go against what
the gods decree. and I really, really like that
because I remember... being really struck, especially
when I re -read The Strange Maid, when Sydney
gets the idea, like, oh, Odin wants bloodletting,
we need to give him like a blood eagle and a
sacrifice and we'll do it without painkillers
and he'll just die and it'll be glory and magnificent
and Odin will be happy and the mother back here
is like, whoa, kind of like we've agreed to keep
everything PG at death's now, we can't just do
that anymore, because remember what happened
to Brynhildr, she got, she kind of like got banished,
even though I kind of like kind of mentioned
her. but you don't actually mention what happens
after she gets banished, which I was always curious
about whether there was a Sigurd the Dragon Slayer
in your... fictionalized alternative history
of history. But then of course, as I think I
mentioned before, when your characters discuss
the alternative civil war and it's Odin versus
Thor and that one Valkyrie switches sides, Odin
actually completely rewrites her name from the
history. None of the humans remember what she
was called, only the Valkyrie do. And I thought
that was a nice nod to his treatment of Brunhilde
and that he will stand out with disobedience
with a tough boot. He'll just immediately crush
it and kill it. And of course, Vikings of the
time, honour and memory and being remembered
was so central to everything that they do. I
think even in the Havomal, it's about kind of
like remembering, like for so many years, but.
great deeds last forever etc. Something that
I'm just trying to say for you is that I'm not
quoting it at all. It's been a while since I've
even read The Handle Owl and that's got a long
list of verses. So one question which will possibly
be a slight challenge for your course. forgive
me for leaving this interview so long after I
first read your books. I only got the courage
to do this crazy YouTube thing last year. If
you had to place yourself in your United States
of Asgard, if it was real or if it was just almost
think of it as a role -playing game, which path
or type of destiny would you follow? Would you
be a Loki skin? Would you be a Freya worshiper?
Would you be a Balder worshiper or would you
just be... Because there were Christians, thankfully.
It's a very inclusive world, Tessa Scott. I will
say this. Gosh. I don't know. I probably would
have been raised as a thunderer, which is what?
So the two biggest. groups of people in the United
States of Asgard worship Thor or Freyr. And it's
not direct like comparison, but I've sort of
set it up like Catholics versus Protestants kind
of thing. So they're both basically, you know,
worshiping the same. ideals and like ultimately
the same values theoretically, but coming at
it from very different perspectives. And because
I was raised Catholic, I'm saying I probably
would have been raised as a thunderer because
that was that's the more Catholic parallel, whereas
the Freyans are more the like particularly Baptist,
like Southern Baptist, very American. form of
Protestantism. And I definitely would not have
stayed there because Thor is very rigid in what
he represents. And like he represents a lot of
things, but if you don't like the rules, then
you aren't going to be a very successful member
of his congregations. And I am very much not
a rule follower. So I wouldn't have lasted, I
honestly don't know. And I would have had to
pick because that is one of the things in the
United States of Asgard in order to maintain
your citizenship, you have to have an official
God that you're dedicated to. I probably would
have picked Loki, which would have just been
a mess. But, you know, is very much the opposite.
of Thor and the rule following in a lot of ways.
He's known in Asgard as the Changer, that's his
nickname. So Thor is the Thunderer and Loki is
the Changer. So I would have probably ended up
with a Loki. Yeah. The Loki skin definitely,
and I looked like the name Loki skin, it just
makes so much sense. They're very kind of like
a transitional community. They never really stay
in one place. They're often where you would find
bulbers and sea -wrestlers, I amend it in. I
think it is The Lost Sun, where Astrid does kind
of like a sea -wrestling session for people to
come and pay so they can get money. Because I
think that's one thing that all three books have
in common. Nearly all the characters go on quite
a road trip. around this alternative inner science
of America. And I would love to see the little
maps you drew up to kind of like work out where
they go next and hear them. Especially in the
strange marriage when you've got more than one
party. Yeah, yeah. That, you know, a great American
road trip is a big part of American literature
and storytelling. You know, the... the Western
American mythology, the imperialist, I guess,
is a way to say that too, is very much about
movement, constant travel, going from one place
to the next, looking at the horizon, you know,
the Wild West, all of that is really baked into
American popular culture. And so I really was
determined that the three novels would each have
road trip aspects. Well, let us not forget The
Apple Throne, because that was equally a very,
very good book. I think I tried reading my reviews
of it just to remind me what had happened, and
I was so brief with the details. I didn't give
away anything of the plot. I just said, this
one trumps the other two. It is a worthy end
of the trilogy. I wish there was more sad face,
because I do, and that's why I'm kind of glad
when you brought out The Weight of Stars, which
is three novellas. of the other characters that
of course Soren, Astrid, and Sickly meet. So
would you mind just giving the viewers a little
recap or overview of what the Apple Throne is
about because that's Astrid's story more specifically.
It is hard to do without major spoilers for the
first two books. Think of it like a blurb. Yes.
So the Apple Throne is about Astrid. from who
is the other main character in The Lost Sun.
It is about her when Soren goes missing. He just
disappears from the world as far as she can tell.
And so she has to leave the place that she has
been set by the gods that she agreed to stay
forever. And she has to basically defy the gods
in order to speak Soren out and Astrid is the
one of the three of them who has always had the
most faith and trust in the gods and that when
she is she's dedicated to Freya and even though
Freya has a really bad rap for um you know being
very manipulative and usually takes the hits
when Odin is the one actually doing the manipulation
Freya takes the hits. But Astrid truly believes
that Freya does what is best for the world, that
she looks at all the strands of fate and plucks
the ones that will make the world better. And
so to go against Freya is really difficult for
Astrid. And she meets new characters who are
in various like pockets of Not quite marginalization,
but a little bit and it's the first time you
really meet a godling a half God half human character.
He is a son of Thor and super not into his dad
And then another Thunderer who is Dedicated but
has like secrets that if they came to light he
wouldn't be able to be dedicated to Thor anymore
So it is also a big road trip. And the best part
is that I finally also get into the Elves under
the mountains and what life is like for them
in this, in North America, basically, how they
got there and why they've been a secret. And,
you know, people think in the United States of
Asgard, humans think the elves are extinct. and
that giants are extinct, and the only remnants
of those kinds of inhuman peoples are the trolls
who are throughout America, lots of different
kinds of trolls. But yeah, so that's all on Apple
phones. Well, it's the one book I never got around
to rereading prior to the interview, and I do
definitely want to reread it again, just to make
sure that my review stands the test of time,
and I'm sure it will, though, because you're
writing and the world is brilliant. but speaking
about the trolls and of course the elves and
the other magical creatures in this amazing universe
it's I think it's the one feature that really
enhances it that brings it to life like they
kind of like go walking in the forest and you
don't come across big brown grizzly bears you
come across trolls but also kind of like cat
lights and other small types of trolls, there's
almost like different species of them. It was
quite diverse and I kind of like loved how some
of them could communicate or some of them could
be appeased by giving them silver or snacks or
that kind of thing. And how did you do much research
into what kind of creatures I guess the Norse
might have believed into them place in America
or did you just create a lot of them original?
Definitely did a lot of research. I love fairy
tales also, of course. And so looking into the
like fairies and also, you know, I really, this
is something that I really appreciate from Tolkien's
work in particular, not his fiction. which is
fine. But, you know, he has done so much translation,
did so much translation, and wrote academic essays
about looking at the Old English in particular,
like the Old English sagas and poems as literature,
as fairy tales, not just as, well, how can we
mine this for historical facts? My favorite thing
that Tolkien wrote that I have read is called
The Monsters and the Critics. And it's an essay.
basically arguing that Beowulf is not a historic
document. It's a living piece of literature.
And when I wrote, when I read that, it just like
really changed how I thought about literature
in general and ancient literature and everything
in between about them as still being living things.
You know, it's something that it's really easy
to think about when we're talking about something
like Shakespeare because, you know, we have different
versions of his plays and, you know, the more
popular ones, but those are constantly being
reinterpreted. That's the point of theater is
to take words and perform them and interpret
them through, you know, voice and set and costume.
And so thinking about how we could do that with
a poem like Beowulf, which of course, translation
itself is so changing and there's so much interpretation.
And even though technically Beowulf was written
down in English, most modern readers can't read
it directly. It has to be translated. Wow, this
is a real tangent. No, go for it. I'm all ears.
I really do love talking about Old English and
language in general and the English language
and its history. But what was I talking about?
How did I go on this tangent? We were talking
about trolls? Oh, trolls. We were talking about
trolls. And Tolkien, that's what happened. It
was really through that his work that I started
looking into the different kinds of You know,
where did he what details was he mining to come
up with two or his dwarves and his elves and
things like that and what are the other versions
of those that are Old and show up in poems and
hints and things like that. Um And there's even
some of it in Old English. The word elf comes
from Old English, and then before that, a Norse
word, I can't remember the exact tree. So it
was really all that research, and I knew I wanted
the trolls to be varied. cats is really how I
was thinking about them. And, you know, you've
got little house cats all the way up to lions
and everything in between. You know, we've got,
you know, bobcats and panthers and tigers and
cheetahs and all these different kinds that are
still recognizable as cats. But the behaviors
are just, you know, where they live and how they
evolved and that kind of thing. So I wanted to
play with how the fundamental aspects of how
I understand trolls from the older North fairy
tales and mythology like how might they have
evolved both in a like natural biological way
and also how could different forms of magic have
pushed some in one direction and others in another
direction. So that's really what I came up with.
I think there are seven main branches of trolls,
the iron whites, cat white, prairie trolls, hill
trolls, and mountain trolls. Maybe there's just
five. Am I missing one? That might be the basics,
those five ones. And of course, the cat whites
and iron whites are the smallest and the most
mischievous. and the mountain trolls are the
biggest and also the most intelligent and they
have the most magic that affects them and the
troll mothers are directly connected to the elves
through magic. Well, I just loved it. There's
so much rich detail you've created in across
all these stories Tessa and I kind of like after
I finished the last short story in the weight
of stars I was thinking there needs to be a world
of the United States of Asgard encyclopedic book
just so I can just dive into this world and never
leave it because it's just so rich and I just
absolutely loved it and I'm so pleased I can
get to tell you face -to -face that I do I really
really really love it it's very few friends that
ever Most of my friends are so different to me,
none of them are really into all this stuff.
But if I ever meet anyone who does, I just immediately
recommend it. I really, really do. I guess the
last question I'd like to ask is, following on
writing these books, did your interest with Norse
mythology remain? Did it fade? Did you come across
any other interests or influences along the same
lines? It's okay if not. We hold no grudges here.
um I put down Norse mythology and you know the
United States of Asgard very hard and abruptly
and on purpose because um the experience of publishing
them was very upsetting. I'm sorry to hear that.
Well um The Lost Son was my third published book.
And when I sold it, I sold it to Random House
Children's Books. And I had a great experience
there with my first two novels, Blood Magic and
The Blood Keeper, which are, they're about folk
magic. And I mean, very, very bloody folk magic,
young adult novels. And as we were finishing
editing The Lost Sun and starting to do like
the package, like where the cover would be, as
that happened, Random House and Penguin merged.
And so it became Penguin Random House. And there
was a lot of upheaval and a lot of changes in...
how like the direction of the imprint that I
was at and editors leaving and new editors coming
and just lots of rearranging the bureaucracy
of merging two giant publishers and the lost
son really was affected poorly from that. I lost
my editor so I didn't have an in -house advocate
for the book. in the same way and some of the
direction changed and we went from having what
I consider to be a really dynamic, beautiful
fantasy cover to something that is a very paranormal
YA design. I don't think, you know, so just a
lot of little things happened. And I was writing
The Strange Maid at the same time. And The Strange
Maid is a very fraught book. It was very difficult
to write. It's just, there's so much going on
and I was going through a lot. And then right
after The Strange Maid published, in I think
June of 2014, so almost a decade from a decade
ago, My agent called me and I thought we were
going to be talking about my next series after
the Apple Throne. And instead she was calling
to tell me that the publisher was canceling publication
of the Apple Throne. And so I was, you know,
it's something that does happen pretty regularly
in publishing. But of course it didn't ever happen
to me. I know. And so I was really, really upset
about it. And if the Apple Throne hadn't already
been essentially done, I don't know if I would
have published it on my own because I was just
very upset. And so once I, you know, I will say
the publisher was very good to me, you know,
with regards to, you know, they canceled the
series, but they gave me back all the rights.
And everything was very friendly. I really enjoyed
the people that I was working with at that time.
But I was just exhausted and upset. And all my
dreams of this series, which everyone that I
had talked to who had read it or that I pitched
it to really was excited about the ideas. And
so it just felt like, And it sort of felt like
being left at the altar is what I said at the
time. And so I, once I republished them, like
I self -published the trilogy and then added
the weight of stars, I was like, I really, this
has to be on a shelf over there. I'm not gonna
think about it anymore. and I took all of my
old English books and my Norse books and I put
them in a different, like they're still on a
shelf, but not in my office. So it was a really
like hard drop of that. And then I did my best
to ignore all of that for several years while
I focused on new projects. Yeah, so I really,
can't say what it directs, that anything spooled
directly from it, though the next book that I
wrote and sold was The Queens of Innisfleer,
which is a fantasy feminist retelling of King
Lear, and a lot of my research that I had done
definitely like backdoored into you know, how
I invented my, um, you know, ancient, it's, it's
basically Ireland. So, um, yeah, yeah. Well,
I am truly sorry you had such a tough experience
from publishing these three because who knows
what could have happened if, if things were different.
Um, but I still appreciate you carrying on with
it even to the most bitter endings to just get
the books out there get them read because I certainly
I think they certainly make a whole they do all
all three novels and of course the short stories
is kind of like extra bonus bonus features around
the edge and I really really appreciate them
they're always on my favorite shelf which is
always fun that's why I'm always having to rearrange
my books it definitely changed me as a writer
When I was, I reread the main trilogy before
this because I couldn't remember anybody's names.
Don't worry about it. Most people who are readers
read that many books. I'm surprised we remember
anything. Yeah, exactly. So I reread them and
the difference to me. in The Lost Son to The
Strange Maid. I feel like as a writer, I leveled
up multiple levels in the writing. Like The Lost
Son, I think the story is great. I love the characters
in the world, but I can see looking back after
10 years, I'm like, oh, well, this is a little
clunky. I would finesse this part now. But when
I read The Strange Maid, I have the opposite
reaction. I was, I basically, I wouldn't change
a word of the strange maid even 10 years later.
And the difference as a writer is it's such a,
an interesting lesson that, you know, everything
that I was going through career wise and everything
I was trying to do ambition wise was worth it.
Like the, so this series really will always have
a very important place in my heart. And because
of your invitation to be on this podcast, I was
reflecting on the fact that it has been 10 years.
And so this is a good time to tell anyone who's
listening that at the end of May, I'm actually
going to be taking them all down. So if you want
to read them now, you should get them. Okay,
right. You had your first few. Go buy, go download,
go borrow from your little Ivy, make sure they
got them in. Yep, I'm going to take them down
and then re -jacket them, like totally do like
a new modern take. I'll probably revise the lost
son a little bit, but not the strange maid, and
hopefully I think you'll be excited to hear,
uh, write some new content. So it won't be I'm
looking at the 15th anniversary as my goal for
all of that because I have a lot going on right
now, which will be 2028 But that that's my goal
right now. So get it while you can otherwise
When it comes out, oh well, I'm so pleased that
it's not been too much of a traumatic reflection
giving now that we know kind of like the publishing
world is tough and I know from my mere experience
just doing creative writing is a degree that
just writing is the hardest part and then the
publishing bit is equally hard and it does take
more than one person to publish a book because
it's a lot of stuff there's a lot to think about
and do and I I will reiterate thank you for continuing
with the series even after your Penguin Random
House murder experience, unfortunately. So thank
you and of course it's really exciting that this
whole experience of rereading and of course Camille's
talked a little on me has encouraged you to.
go forth and bring them back anew even bigger
and better than before because they can only
ever get better Tessa because they're already
good and I completely agree with you with the
strange mate because the intensity of emotion
in characters but I think it's because it's so
Cygni -focused, Cygni is such the driving force
when the first one there's like three protagonists
all vying for the same thing I guess it's a whole
other level but that just shows the passion.
that you had when you were writing it and I thank
you for it. I hope so, thank you. I thank you
for your wonderful time and the wonderful little
surprise announcement which I did not know was
coming. It was a genuine surprise to me and I
am very, very excited. So yes, thank you so much
for your time and I wish you luck with all your
writing projects, not just of course redoing
the United States of Asgard, which I think is
a country we should all visit. even with the
trolls and the cat whites. Well, it's a mess,
but that's because I base it on the United States
of America, which is also a mess. Well, thank
you very much again, and thank you to you dear
viewers and listeners, viewing and listening.
As Tessie said, Tessa Heard, she's taking down
these current versions. of the quartet as I will
now call them and so please do go borrow and
draw them otherwise mark it in your diary for
2028 hopeful new versions with new content and
I will be emailing Tessa at 2028 to ask is it
done yet? Well if you want to keep up to date
you can go to my website which is tessagratten
.com and sign up for my newsletter and that's
where all these kinds of announcements go out
first and I talk about all of my books and writing
and frequently write essays about things. So
yeah, go do that, tessagratten .com. Do you have
any social platforms of any particular that you
would like people to join for you? I am primarily
on Instagram these days. That's where I do the
most. I'm also technically on Twitter, but I
don't like it there anymore. So mostly I'm just
there to look at fan art and keep up with Star
Wars readers. That's fine. Well, as you said,
dear viewers, go to TessieGretton .com. Feel
free to follow on Instagram, but no pressure
to do so. And we'll all be downloading the newsletter
and keeping track for the next couple of years.
Thank you again so much for your time in this
wonderful sixth episode of Valkyrie. Where am
I going? Valkyries. I just keep thinking Valkyries.
Valhalla conversations. When I can get my own
YouTube series name right, it'll be a good day.
And thank you, everyone, for watching and listening.
Enjoy the rest of your day. Goodbye.