WEBVTT 00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:34.600 and welcome to what is now episode five, I've 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.119 done this five times now, of the series that 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:40.079 I have now called Valhalla Conversations, where 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.640 I meet creatives of like -mindedness who likes 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.060 Vikings, Viking Age, and of course, North mythology, 00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:48.020 because they're the two parts of the same coin, 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:51.119 which I absolutely adore. And I'm delighted to 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.960 welcome today on my fifth episode, Kate Hartfield, 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:56.560 author of this wonderful book. I do encourage 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.520 everyone to go buy it. I mean, just look at that 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.450 cover. Just look at that lovely cover. Of course, 00:01:01.490 --> 00:01:03.130 ignore the Thor's hammer. It's all about this 00:01:03.130 --> 00:01:05.950 person right here, this person. But we shall 00:01:05.950 --> 00:01:08.329 dive in tomorrow about that. So Kate, would you 00:01:08.329 --> 00:01:09.989 like to introduce yourself and your wonderful 00:01:09.989 --> 00:01:13.430 works? Hello, thank you. I'm so excited to be 00:01:13.430 --> 00:01:15.950 here. This is a wonderful, wonderful project. 00:01:16.250 --> 00:01:17.969 And yeah, I'm just looking forward to the conversation. 00:01:18.609 --> 00:01:21.730 So I am a writer who lives in Canada. I live 00:01:21.730 --> 00:01:26.829 just outside of Ottawa. And I have, I used to 00:01:26.829 --> 00:01:30.879 be a journalist. And I've written about five 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:32.519 novels that have been published. I say about 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:35.579 as if it's like not a discrete number. So a few 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:38.780 novels of my own, including The Valkyrie, The 00:01:38.780 --> 00:01:41.859 Embroidered Book, which is a big novel about 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:45.219 Marie Antoinette and her sister. And I have a 00:01:45.219 --> 00:01:48.459 medieval novel called The Shadalane. And I have 00:01:48.459 --> 00:01:51.719 more novels coming out shortly. And I've also 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:53.879 written a couple of tie -in novels for Assassin's 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:56.989 Creed, the video game franchise. short fiction 00:01:56.989 --> 00:02:00.450 and interactive fiction, so all kinds of storytelling 00:02:00.450 --> 00:02:04.269 in different formats. Brilliant. Well, of course, 00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:07.129 today is specifically about this one, which I 00:02:07.129 --> 00:02:09.770 only discovered myself last summer due to a secret 00:02:09.770 --> 00:02:12.169 project that I'm not announcing just yet, dear 00:02:12.169 --> 00:02:15.229 viewers. It's still being finalized. Kate is 00:02:15.229 --> 00:02:19.830 one of the privileged few that knows. But yes, 00:02:20.530 --> 00:02:23.310 so I, if anyone follows me on Twitter, Instagram, 00:02:23.530 --> 00:02:25.110 well, what used to be Twitter, Instagram threads, 00:02:25.210 --> 00:02:27.090 they'll know that I love Norse mythology and 00:02:27.090 --> 00:02:29.169 particularly Valkyries, hence why I'm surrounded 00:02:29.169 --> 00:02:32.090 by all the different books and comics featuring 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:34.629 Valkyries that I have read, followed, some brilliant, 00:02:35.069 --> 00:02:37.949 some... Okay, most of them are good. I do recommend 00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:40.449 most of what I have on my bookshelf. But this 00:02:40.449 --> 00:02:42.770 one, this one went straight to the top of my 00:02:42.770 --> 00:02:44.629 number one list, Kate, when I finished it. I 00:02:44.629 --> 00:02:47.009 read it in five days, which as a mum of a toddler, 00:02:47.750 --> 00:02:50.590 very active toddler who's three going on 13th, 00:02:50.590 --> 00:02:52.810 was an amazing feat because I haven't read that 00:02:52.810 --> 00:02:55.150 quickly for some time since me becoming a mum. 00:02:56.150 --> 00:02:58.129 So I guess we'll start off with the beginning 00:02:58.129 --> 00:03:02.069 and like, how did you get the idea to write the 00:03:02.069 --> 00:03:07.759 Valkyrie? Yeah, like many books, I think this 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.780 came from a few different streams all joining 00:03:10.780 --> 00:03:13.680 together to make a river and, you know, a few 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.099 different places that were bouncing around in 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:21.800 my mind. So probably the actual moment when it 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:25.680 was born was a night when I was reading bedtime 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:29.319 stories to my kid. He was, I think, about nine 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:33.740 years old at the time. He's 14 now. He loves 00:03:33.740 --> 00:03:37.039 mythology and folklore and history, and so we 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:38.780 kind of share an interest in that kind of thing. 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.360 And he had several books on his shelf about Norse 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.439 mythology. You know, some of them written more 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:48.939 for kids, some of them not. And it was probably 00:03:48.939 --> 00:03:51.659 the Neil Gaiman Norse mythology book that we 00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:54.280 were reading. And we came across the story that 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:58.199 that book does have a short version of the Brynhild 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:03.669 and Sigurd story in it. And You know, we were 00:04:03.669 --> 00:04:06.129 reading that together and maybe another couple 00:04:06.129 --> 00:04:10.409 of North Smiths that week. And I was doing a 00:04:10.409 --> 00:04:12.409 short fiction contest for a writers group that 00:04:12.409 --> 00:04:15.110 I'm a part of called Codex. And we have this 00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:18.850 flash fiction contest every year. And the idea 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:21.069 is to write a very short story over a weekend 00:04:21.069 --> 00:04:25.430 of 750 words over a weekend. And I was inspired 00:04:25.430 --> 00:04:27.569 to write this very short story about Brunnhilde 00:04:27.569 --> 00:04:30.230 from her perspective. Because when I read the 00:04:30.230 --> 00:04:32.310 story, I thought, When I was reading the myth, 00:04:32.689 --> 00:04:34.449 I had read it before, but it just really struck 00:04:34.449 --> 00:04:36.870 me that there are things about Brunhilde's side 00:04:36.870 --> 00:04:39.029 of the story that didn't ring true to me, that 00:04:39.029 --> 00:04:40.629 it just didn't make sense. I thought, well, I'm 00:04:40.629 --> 00:04:42.069 just going to write from her perspective. So 00:04:42.069 --> 00:04:45.889 I wrote the 750 -word story. And my co -writers 00:04:45.889 --> 00:04:47.350 who read it said, oh, well, this is great, but 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:50.069 it's not a 750 -word story. This is a novel. 00:04:52.009 --> 00:04:54.490 So I had the beginning of the novel from there. 00:04:55.610 --> 00:04:57.790 and that was really the spark of it but there 00:04:57.790 --> 00:05:00.170 were some other things then that as I read the 00:05:00.170 --> 00:05:01.850 research and I started to think about okay well 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:04.350 what story do I want to tell then it grew from 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:08.089 there because of course dear viewer and reader 00:05:08.089 --> 00:05:11.029 listener whatever um this book is a dual narrative 00:05:11.029 --> 00:05:14.089 it's told of course from Brunhilde The Fallen 00:05:14.089 --> 00:05:17.689 Valkyrie, the only Valkyrie has a real showpiece 00:05:17.689 --> 00:05:20.910 in legend and lore, but it's also told from the 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:24.329 point of view of Gudrun, the kind of unfortunate 00:05:24.329 --> 00:05:27.810 sister to King Gunnar and the whole love quartet 00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:29.949 that's more complicated than Romeo and Juliet 00:05:29.949 --> 00:05:34.470 by far. So how did you decide to make it a two 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:40.199 -jeweled feminine narrative as well? Where I 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:44.060 came from with that was I, you know, I was immediately 00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:47.779 drawn to the story of Brunhilde because she is, 00:05:47.779 --> 00:05:50.759 you know, she's many different things and many 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:55.939 different versions of the story. So the two main 00:05:55.939 --> 00:05:58.860 streams of sources, source material that we have 00:05:58.860 --> 00:06:03.019 are. you know, the Norse mythology, the prose 00:06:03.019 --> 00:06:06.439 Eddas, the prose and poetic Eddas, and the song 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:07.959 of the Volsings, and we'll probably get into 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.420 that. And over on the Germanic side, there are 00:06:10.420 --> 00:06:12.779 several medieval poems, and the best, the biggest 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:15.339 one is the New Blinged Lead, which is this big 00:06:15.339 --> 00:06:18.579 epic poem. Some of the names are different, but 00:06:18.579 --> 00:06:23.120 most of the story is pretty much the same. And 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.620 with some important changes, which again, we 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:28.790 can get into. But so when I was reading all the 00:06:28.790 --> 00:06:32.250 source material, Bernhild herself, you know, 00:06:32.250 --> 00:06:34.430 sometimes she's a sorceress, sometimes she's 00:06:34.430 --> 00:06:37.750 a witch, sometimes she's a queen over the water. 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:42.110 But in the Norse versions, she's a fallen Valkyrie. 00:06:42.430 --> 00:06:45.889 And so I, you know, I thought she was a really 00:06:45.889 --> 00:06:48.069 interesting figure. So that's where I began. 00:06:49.470 --> 00:06:51.250 And so I didn't really begin with this idea of 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:53.170 the two women talking to each other. But as I 00:06:53.170 --> 00:06:57.810 started reading to research the story, I was 00:06:57.810 --> 00:07:00.029 really struck by their relationship, and they're 00:07:00.029 --> 00:07:02.670 often portrayed as these bitter rivals that end 00:07:02.670 --> 00:07:06.629 up bringing everything down, bringing on catastrophe 00:07:06.629 --> 00:07:09.189 because of their jealousy of each other. But 00:07:09.189 --> 00:07:11.410 when I was reading, actually I've got it right 00:07:11.410 --> 00:07:14.250 here beside me, the Song of the Nibelings, which 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:16.730 is a translation by Margaret Armour, and this 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:19.730 is actually from the Tolkien's bookshelf edition. 00:07:20.589 --> 00:07:24.439 I was really struck by... how there's these phrases 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.319 about like saying things like when um when these 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.639 two women saw each other in the hall they couldn't 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:32.980 take their eyes off each other and you know when 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:35.019 they saw each other they embraced warmly and 00:07:35.019 --> 00:07:37.120 there was just all this this this sense of a 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:39.540 really passionate relationship there even before 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:43.610 they become enemies and rivals And so eventually 00:07:43.610 --> 00:07:45.730 it just dawned on me that the easiest way to 00:07:45.730 --> 00:07:48.089 tell a different version of the story that made 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:50.550 sense, and to me even made more sense in some 00:07:50.550 --> 00:07:53.449 ways than what has come down to us, was to wonder 00:07:53.449 --> 00:07:55.970 what would the story have looked like to them 00:07:55.970 --> 00:07:58.129 if they were actually in love. So that's where 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:01.930 the dual narrative came from with them being, 00:08:02.910 --> 00:08:06.029 and because, you know, who tells the story and 00:08:06.029 --> 00:08:08.970 who listens to the story is so important in retellings. 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:11.389 it was important to me to have them be both the 00:08:11.389 --> 00:08:14.089 tellers and also the audience in a sense that 00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:16.110 this is a contained universe in which they're 00:08:16.110 --> 00:08:19.829 telling each other the story. I must admit, when 00:08:19.829 --> 00:08:22.949 I first started reading it, the way Brunhilde 00:08:22.949 --> 00:08:25.870 starts referring to her past but also in the 00:08:25.870 --> 00:08:28.029 present tense it's like okay well what's happening 00:08:28.029 --> 00:08:29.569 it's like my beginning with my other beginning 00:08:29.569 --> 00:08:32.009 i'm like okay which which i'll just carry on 00:08:32.009 --> 00:08:33.570 eventually makes sense and of course by the end 00:08:33.570 --> 00:08:36.169 it all does because you realize it's like one 00:08:36.169 --> 00:08:37.809 of those films that starts you in the middle 00:08:37.809 --> 00:08:39.190 and then it takes you back to the beginning and 00:08:39.190 --> 00:08:41.409 then it works its way through and of course it 00:08:41.409 --> 00:08:44.830 is really refreshing and of course highly relevant 00:08:44.830 --> 00:08:48.649 to kind of like 21st 22nd century values today 00:08:48.649 --> 00:08:51.909 about kind of like equality and independent women 00:08:51.909 --> 00:08:54.100 and that kind of thing about kind of against 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:58.120 the hierarchy, so to speak, to have these strong 00:08:58.120 --> 00:08:59.860 two female voices, because of course the legends 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:03.580 focus mainly on what the men get up to. So it's 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:05.519 Sigurd that goes and kills the dragon, it's Sigurd 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:07.519 who wakes Brunnhilde, it's Sigurd who woo's her 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.539 and goes after the treasure, and it's Regan who 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:12.519 I always found was a really weird, wormy type 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:16.720 character. He often reminds me of a character 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:18.259 from Harry Potter that I can't remember the name 00:09:18.259 --> 00:09:20.860 of. I want to say Wormwood, but I could be wrong. 00:09:23.470 --> 00:09:26.549 I know the one you mean, yeah. I remember him 00:09:26.549 --> 00:09:28.570 specifically because it was in The Prisoner of 00:09:28.570 --> 00:09:31.730 Azkaban and he betrays Harry Potter and his newly 00:09:31.730 --> 00:09:34.450 found uncle and that whole shebang. It just really 00:09:34.450 --> 00:09:36.549 came back when I reread The Saga of the Volsungs 00:09:36.549 --> 00:09:39.470 after, of course, rereading yours. And that's 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:42.169 when it really made me notice and I'm still rereading 00:09:42.169 --> 00:09:44.049 it as part of my secret project and take some 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.559 analysis. There, dear listeners, about... the 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:49.120 changes and adaptations you've introduced, so 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:50.519 you've not just told it from a different point 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.200 of view but you have restructured events, repositioned 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.600 characters in different ways. I guess the most 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.620 significant one for me is the way that you've 00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:09.100 had Brunhilde not quite not be the stereotypical 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:11.139 stereotype that everyone knows of, like it's 00:10:11.139 --> 00:10:13.019 the damsel in distress, it's the damsel in the 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:14.360 fire that you've got to go and kiss and wake 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.080 up. Very much alike to Sleeping Beauty. I know 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.639 in Wykner he made Odin put her to sleep and put 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:22.759 the ring to fire, but in your book she chose 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.059 to do that because it was she who wants to take 00:10:25.059 --> 00:10:27.340 on Fafnir hearing it from the birds, which I 00:10:27.340 --> 00:10:29.440 actually love, love the idea of her learning 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.980 language from the birds and of course learning 00:10:30.980 --> 00:10:32.899 it from other Valkyries and Odin, which makes 00:10:32.899 --> 00:10:36.860 sense because he spoke to ravens. actually connects 00:10:36.860 --> 00:10:40.460 beautifully with mythology. But were there any 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:43.340 pieces and adaptations that you made that you 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:45.379 were a bit unsure of, or were you quite confident 00:10:45.379 --> 00:10:47.799 in going forward and making those changes that 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:49.659 you made? I'm trying not to spoil it too much 00:10:49.659 --> 00:10:54.960 for dear viewers. Yeah, it was always a little 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.600 bit, you know, I felt a strong sense of responsibility. 00:10:59.880 --> 00:11:02.779 to the history of the narrative and to all of 00:11:02.779 --> 00:11:06.039 the storytellers who had gone before me and to 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.620 the ongoing story, you know, that's this living 00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:12.120 thing over time and will continue to live on 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.059 long past me in various forms. So I did feel 00:11:15.059 --> 00:11:18.620 some responsibility to that, to treat it respectfully, 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:21.700 to do my best to make a story that felt true 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:25.279 and felt like it honoured the history of the 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:29.500 story. At the same time, you know, the sources 00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:32.419 are all so contradictory and have different versions 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:35.120 going on. And so I really felt like there was 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.620 no single canon version that I could possibly 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:40.559 portray in a sense, you know, because there are 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:45.840 different, almost every scene or part of the 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.720 story is told in slightly different ways, especially 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.779 in the Norse versus the Germanic versions of 00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:55.590 it. And even within particular cultural traditions 00:11:55.590 --> 00:11:57.789 or language traditions, there are still contradictions 00:11:57.789 --> 00:12:00.429 and changes in the story. So I had a strong sense 00:12:00.429 --> 00:12:03.210 that storytellers have been kind of messing with 00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:05.809 this for many years and have been introducing 00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:08.629 things that made sense to them or spoke to their 00:12:08.629 --> 00:12:12.350 moment in time or how they saw the important 00:12:12.350 --> 00:12:14.389 themes that they wanted to bring out. So when 00:12:14.389 --> 00:12:17.509 it came time to sort of reinterpret an event 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:19.470 in the story and look at it from a different 00:12:19.470 --> 00:12:23.190 angle and maybe even change the facts that led 00:12:23.190 --> 00:12:26.690 up to it, I felt like that was almost in a way 00:12:26.690 --> 00:12:28.690 honoring that tradition because it has been changed 00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:33.169 and played around with so much that it's not 00:12:33.169 --> 00:12:36.450 set in stone or ossified. It's a living narrative 00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:39.330 that changes all the time. So that part of it 00:12:39.330 --> 00:12:44.009 when Brunnhilde is sleeping, she does put herself 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:47.269 to sleep. And I was really fascinated with the... 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.919 With the role of sleep in fairy tales as you 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:51.840 say Sleeping Beauty You know this this story 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:53.960 was probably a source for Sleeping Beauty because 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:57.019 it has this this idea of pricking the finger 00:12:57.019 --> 00:13:00.519 on a thorn and falling asleep and being woken 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.159 by a man who comes along and and wakes her up 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:08.940 and As a mom as you will understand I I felt 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:12.399 very strongly that you know sleep is so powerful 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.340 and so you know the idea that it was a curse 00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:20.779 for a woman seems very prevalent in stories and 00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:23.600 from the woman's perspective I thought you know 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:25.899 what sleep is sleep is where we get our strength 00:13:25.899 --> 00:13:29.879 yeah so I think you know I just it seemed to 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.259 me like if somebody wanted to have a spell that 00:13:33.259 --> 00:13:35.259 would put them to sleep I thought well what about 00:13:35.259 --> 00:13:36.580 looking at it from the other side and thinking 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:38.480 about it as a source of strength rather than 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.500 a curse and and so that's where that came from. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:44.899 The other thing kind of like, I know I mentioned 00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:46.980 it earlier, it was kind of like re -reading the 00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:49.840 Saga of the Volsons that I didn't really notice 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.379 or realise because I had read it before many 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:54.500 years ago and it obviously, I think I walked 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:57.059 away just thinking, oh Odin, he's such a manipulator, 00:13:57.259 --> 00:13:59.259 he makes all the bad things happen effectively, 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:01.700 we'll get on to him in another minute because 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:03.960 he's a very, another important character to underlying 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:06.059 all this and I think you've done that brilliantly, 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:09.960 but it was when Sigurd and Brynhild in the side 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.399 with the Volsungs have that long talk and she's 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:13.940 sharing her wisdom about the runes and this that 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.500 I thought you've done really well to adapt that 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.480 all those little verses about using runes and 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.039 ale and using runes of fire and healing and birchwood 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.519 and that kind of thing to make it very practical 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.480 and almost like very believable very physical 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.720 magic as well like not just like using the runes 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:32.720 to kind of like give her that sleep boost to 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.879 give almost like an adrenaline rush almost akin 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:37.440 to I don't know Captain America going into a 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.519 capsule I suppose, to give it a modern analogy. 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:44.460 But also because I've been rereading up to the 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:48.039 point where she is with Gunnar and Gudrun and 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:49.580 their family and of course Sigurd's there and 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:51.799 there's that bitterness simmering away and of 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.019 course Gudrun's mum asks her to help strengthen 00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:57.320 the stones and the bridge and I thought oh that's 00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.750 really interesting making about using Runes not 00:14:59.750 --> 00:15:02.009 just in like a magical I will heal you of your 00:15:02.009 --> 00:15:03.610 ailments kind of thing and I will bring fire 00:15:03.610 --> 00:15:05.669 forth from out of nowhere But I'm actually gonna 00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:08.149 make a bridge more stable. I thought that was 00:15:08.149 --> 00:15:12.370 I was a really clever twist Yeah, good. Yeah. 00:15:12.370 --> 00:15:14.269 Yeah, that was one of those those places where 00:15:14.269 --> 00:15:18.009 I think all of the you know, sort of background 00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:21.909 ideas of the story and then my own plot and trying 00:15:21.909 --> 00:15:27.129 to Fit this into the historical narrative you 00:15:27.129 --> 00:15:29.529 know, all kind of came together and it just made 00:15:29.529 --> 00:15:32.129 sense to me that, you know, Bernhilde would be 00:15:32.129 --> 00:15:34.169 involved in kind of strengthening the fortifications 00:15:34.169 --> 00:15:37.070 of the city. And, you know, so one thing that 00:15:37.070 --> 00:15:39.750 I have found that many people who are not familiar 00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:43.850 with the source material don't know is that this 00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:46.929 is a historical narrative and that it does refer 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:50.570 to the actual historical event of what we now 00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:53.350 call Worms Germany, you know, the city on the 00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:57.389 edge of the Rhine. It was then sort of the edge 00:15:57.389 --> 00:16:01.009 of the Roman Empire at the time. And when Attila 00:16:01.009 --> 00:16:03.529 and the Huns came over, it was one of the first 00:16:03.529 --> 00:16:08.809 places that felt their wrath and ended up leading 00:16:08.809 --> 00:16:11.529 to the exile and migration of the Burgundian 00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:14.889 people into what is now Burgundy, France. So 00:16:14.889 --> 00:16:16.730 all of that historical part of it, I think, is 00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:18.769 not very well understood. And so I get a lot 00:16:18.769 --> 00:16:20.509 of questions from people like, why did you put 00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:23.620 this in a real historical setting? but most you 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:25.860 know most of this work material actually does 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.039 refer to this this historical event even if it's 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:29.980 somewhat obscured now behind different names 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:32.360 and different um you know the fantasy and all 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.279 the rest of it um so that part of it the city 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.120 on the Rhine with a bridge you know um it seemed 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.220 like it was really central to, you know, what 00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:45.100 their concerns would be, you know, how to fortify 00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:48.460 this city and how to be strong. And so, you know, 00:16:48.580 --> 00:16:51.039 I brought in Burnhill's magic into that, I think, 00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:53.659 as a way to kind of bring it all together into 00:16:53.659 --> 00:16:55.980 a story that would seem to make sense to me. 00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:59.980 Well, I really admire it, because I've read in 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:03.259 various North Fantasy books runes and runic magic 00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:05.059 being used, and it has always been kind of done 00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:07.519 as a high fantasy thing, kind of like I would 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:09.019 describe these wounds on the floor and the trap 00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:11.599 will appear and that kind of thing, but yours 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:14.599 seems simple, but not like on a mundane level, 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.420 but simple on a very kind of like, okay, yeah, 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:19.240 I can see how that would work, kind of makes 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.519 sense, and of course... as well as Gudrun and 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.059 Brynhild, you've also got Oda Gudrun's mum who 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:28.819 is also a bit of a sorceress of sorts and I like, 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.880 because I didn't really, wasn't really aware 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:34.240 of her character much in the source text of the 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.099 Saga of the Volsung because I've yet to ring 00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:38.579 the Nibelung Eid, if I can ever pronounce the 00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:42.319 word. No, me neither, yeah. The one with the 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:46.559 Nibelungs. But I remember Colt's hair key role 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:52.720 was almost being the main not the enabler that 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.460 helped Gunnar get Brinhill because she was the 00:17:55.460 --> 00:17:57.940 one that weaves the disguise out of air and magic 00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:00.039 to enable Sigurd to go through the fire because 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.539 Gunnar wouldn't and Sigurd's horse wouldn't either 00:18:03.539 --> 00:18:05.539 even with Gunnar on it which I thought was that 00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:07.220 and of course the other thing that I know is 00:18:07.220 --> 00:18:09.980 rereading and I'm kind of going all over the 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:12.480 place with my questions here so apologies I just 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:14.680 so many ideas and so many brilliant adaptations 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:19.640 was I do remember at least hearing an audio version 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.579 retelling of the Saga of the Volsungs from the 00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.339 wonderful house of that Jorvik Viking thing podcast 00:18:24.339 --> 00:18:27.019 they got some wonderful Jorvik team members to 00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:29.279 narrate the whole thing and I remember hearing 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.859 how Sigurd was goaded by Regan to go go get a 00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:33.960 really good horse and he goes there and an old 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.059 man wonderfully appears and says oh drive them 00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.119 all into the river and see which one still swims 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.670 but of course in Jorban Odin Which of course 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.970 it is, dear viewers. The old man on the road 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:47.390 is always Odin. He's not Gandalf, it's Odin. 00:18:48.109 --> 00:18:49.849 Although Gandalf was probably very much based 00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:54.529 on Odin. Tolkien being who he was. Just says, 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:56.609 oh this horse belonged to a trait and he doesn't 00:18:56.609 --> 00:18:58.390 want to work for the trait anymore so you can 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.470 have him and that's how Granny, the famous horse 00:19:00.470 --> 00:19:02.849 of the name, becomes Sigurd's horse even though 00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:06.410 he was Brunhilde's in your telling. So I kind 00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:09.829 of like how you really explored, and that was 00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:12.549 the first of many instances, they explored the 00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:15.250 reason why Brunnhilde is in Midgard, the mortal 00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:18.809 realm to begin with, is her disagreement, her 00:19:18.809 --> 00:19:22.190 feud, her argument of sorts, for various reasons 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:24.970 with Odin, because in the Saga of the Volsing 00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:27.309 she says, oh I kind of like favoured one king, 00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.859 oh defended the other, he killed. mine even though 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:33.240 I wanted him to live and we just disagreed and 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.319 so I was punished and sent away and I really 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:38.480 like how you explored that a bit more especially 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.660 kind of like with Ben Hill's first initial chapter 00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:43.720 and her reflection how she was so faithful and 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.779 beholden to him as a Valkyrie and she was grateful 00:19:46.779 --> 00:19:49.259 for the training and the powers and ability and 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:52.519 she was almost hero worshiping him in her loyalty 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:54.539 to degree and then when she learned that just 00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.500 by doing what she's doing she then gets told 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.240 off in a way for doing it and that's one thing 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.579 that's always made me drawn I think to the Valkyrie 00:20:03.579 --> 00:20:05.980 characters in in that they're kind of like they're 00:20:05.980 --> 00:20:10.019 free but they're not free they're not quite under 00:20:10.019 --> 00:20:14.019 his control directly but he very much I tried 00:20:14.019 --> 00:20:16.099 to describe it once as kind of like Odin's using 00:20:16.099 --> 00:20:18.299 them as kind of like talent recruiters they go 00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:20.779 off and recruit talent for the war for the war 00:20:20.779 --> 00:20:23.240 kind of thing but he always has the last shot 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.809 although In this case, of course, Brynhill disagreed 00:20:26.809 --> 00:20:29.230 because he taught her to judge them, she's judged 00:20:29.230 --> 00:20:31.589 them, but then he says no. So it's a case of 00:20:31.589 --> 00:20:34.809 kind of like almost knowing when, as certainly 00:20:34.809 --> 00:20:36.650 as a character, there's a woman in any context 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:39.529 to step up and say, no, I believe I'm right kind 00:20:39.529 --> 00:20:42.549 of thing. I'm not just going to bow to what you 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:45.630 say. And of course, when he... appears to her 00:20:45.630 --> 00:20:47.150 within the first few pages and kind of says, 00:20:47.150 --> 00:20:49.789 oh hi, how are you doing? And she's like, leave 00:20:49.789 --> 00:20:54.529 me alone. I really love how you've explored that 00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:57.069 relationship and it carries on mostly at the 00:20:57.069 --> 00:20:58.690 beginning and then of course near the end where 00:20:58.690 --> 00:21:02.529 she realises a lot of truths about Odin's manipulation, 00:21:02.589 --> 00:21:06.029 not just of her, but of course behind Fafnir 00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:10.190 because Fafnir was, in your retelling, kind of 00:21:10.190 --> 00:21:12.349 like... the creation of sorts from Odin. Odin 00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:14.930 enables Fafnir to go from a human to that kind 00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:17.950 of dragon -esque form because of course there's 00:21:17.950 --> 00:21:21.990 the legend of Ota and Regin and Fafnir and Ota's 00:21:21.990 --> 00:21:23.490 hide being covered in gold and that's how the 00:21:23.490 --> 00:21:26.450 cursed ring of the Nibelung gets involved which 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:29.210 I think is another thing going slightly off topic. 00:21:29.869 --> 00:21:32.089 my brain is just all over there's so many wonderful 00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:34.410 things about your book um that you don't really 00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:36.910 put a lot of emphasis on the cursed ring i mean 00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:39.690 fafner does mention that there's a curse of sorts 00:21:39.690 --> 00:21:42.529 it'll be it'll bring doom it'll bring death but 00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:45.109 he doesn't mention anything specifically and 00:21:45.109 --> 00:21:48.910 yet those of us who know familiar at least very 00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:50.990 familiar even with Wagner's kind of version that 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:53.150 like oh the ring that Brinhill picks is definitely 00:21:53.150 --> 00:21:57.210 going to be that one ring Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:21:57.789 --> 00:21:59.750 Yeah, yeah, and that's all, you know, that was 00:21:59.750 --> 00:22:02.390 all just in my mind as well when I was writing 00:22:02.390 --> 00:22:07.329 and, you know, that, as you say, the sort of 00:22:07.329 --> 00:22:10.670 overarching story with Odin, that is probably 00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:13.289 the biggest change that I brought to the book, 00:22:13.329 --> 00:22:15.690 I think, you know, and it's not really a change 00:22:15.690 --> 00:22:17.410 in the sense that you're right, it's all drawing 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:20.829 on pieces of the story. But the idea that Odin 00:22:20.829 --> 00:22:24.269 had this you know plan for the whole and I'll 00:22:24.269 --> 00:22:26.509 try not to spoil as well but like the idea that 00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:28.150 that this all sort of connects together a little 00:22:28.150 --> 00:22:32.390 bit more um was me trying to make you know to 00:22:32.390 --> 00:22:35.049 tell this as a modern story because you know 00:22:35.049 --> 00:22:38.470 there are parts of the old epics and sagas that 00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:41.109 um you know there's one set of characters goes 00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:43.650 and does something and then something else happens 00:22:43.650 --> 00:22:45.809 later on and there's not really any necessarily 00:22:45.809 --> 00:22:48.390 any connection between them because I think the 00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:50.549 older traditions there was not an expectation 00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:52.490 that there would be a person could go and have 00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:54.710 an adventure over here same character could go 00:22:54.710 --> 00:22:57.069 have an adventure over here but to make it a 00:22:57.069 --> 00:23:00.329 modern coherent novel there is that question 00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:02.170 of okay well how are these things connected or 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:04.490 what's you know what's the overarching story 00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:07.809 so I think I did push push on that a little bit. 00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:11.029 I did draw inspiration from real stories about 00:23:11.029 --> 00:23:12.650 what was happening with Odin and Brighill, but 00:23:12.650 --> 00:23:16.029 I sort of put it all together in a way. So that's 00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:18.329 probably the biggest change. And the other big 00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:21.309 change, as you mentioned, I think, is that I 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:24.930 do not emphasize the ring very much. You know, 00:23:24.930 --> 00:23:26.569 it's kind of there as a you know, if you know 00:23:26.569 --> 00:23:28.630 the story, you're going to recognize it. But 00:23:28.630 --> 00:23:33.730 the you know, I think partly because I just felt 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:39.049 like that aspect of it was so explored, both 00:23:39.049 --> 00:23:44.410 by the Wagner opera and also because the way 00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:46.470 that most people are familiar with the story, 00:23:46.650 --> 00:23:48.990 I think, or one way that a lot of people are 00:23:48.990 --> 00:23:51.690 familiar with the story is through Tolkien, because 00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:54.869 Tolkien did draw on this source material. And 00:23:54.869 --> 00:23:58.009 so the idea of a cursed ring associated with 00:23:58.009 --> 00:24:01.269 a dragon, I think we already kind of have a story 00:24:01.269 --> 00:24:04.250 about that in our heads. it would have been a 00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:05.890 real challenge, I think, to tell a different 00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:08.750 story about that for me. And so I wanted to just 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:10.390 shift it a little bit and say, well, look over 00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:15.710 here at this part of it instead. Well, the other 00:24:15.710 --> 00:24:19.109 thing that I really liked, and I'm trying to 00:24:19.109 --> 00:24:21.869 think about how not to spoil things, is that 00:24:21.869 --> 00:24:25.170 in one scene, further on in the book, in the 00:24:25.170 --> 00:24:28.569 narrative that you've told, you've really embraced 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:31.569 kind of like Bryn Hill's past life as a Valkyrie, 00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:33.529 and Valkyrie, I keep saying it wrong, I keep 00:24:33.529 --> 00:24:36.430 pronouncing the I too much. Oh, I don't know. 00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:40.470 I will get it right. I erased her past and brought 00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:44.029 that on in various ways, like for instance, there 00:24:44.029 --> 00:24:47.349 is a chance meeting with Loki, which again you've 00:24:47.349 --> 00:24:49.809 depicted as a feminine form, which for many of 00:24:49.809 --> 00:24:52.109 us now familiar with the Tom Hiddleston version 00:24:52.109 --> 00:24:55.450 of Loki and that whole cinematic universe spinoff. 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:57.289 It's quite rare that he is a shapeshifter and 00:24:57.289 --> 00:25:01.609 very much gender fluid and he is a very wonderfully 00:25:01.609 --> 00:25:03.470 interesting character. And although he's got 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:06.289 a very brief, I say he, she, they, they have 00:25:06.289 --> 00:25:09.470 a very brief, brief appearance, their dialogue 00:25:09.470 --> 00:25:11.369 was really interesting. So I remember reading 00:25:11.369 --> 00:25:13.529 just before I came on to do this interview, that 00:25:13.529 --> 00:25:15.950 kind of like that conversation where Brunel says, 00:25:16.029 --> 00:25:17.470 like, it sounds like you're giving me a warning 00:25:17.470 --> 00:25:20.089 and that's not usual for a god of mischief. And 00:25:20.089 --> 00:25:22.150 he goes, ah, well, well, I keep saying he, they 00:25:22.150 --> 00:25:24.529 say, well, warnings are the best source of mischief 00:25:24.529 --> 00:25:26.769 because you can either interpret them one way 00:25:26.769 --> 00:25:28.640 or the other or you don't know what. what the 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.500 warning is about or about the timing kind of 00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:32.720 thing and then of course you've broadened it 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.079 a little bit further in that there's a conflict 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.960 in the background of sorts between Odin and Freya 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:44.099 and then your brilliant expanding expanded ending 00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:45.900 of sorts like an alternative ending to the Saga 00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:47.220 of the Volsons that should have been there that 00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:50.380 wasn't which I like I really liked that bit um 00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:53.500 was kind of like after Brynhild puts herself 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:57.880 on the pyre and and burns and and that's for 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.519 me as a fan of anything to do with Valkyries 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:02.779 was absolutely mind -blowing how you really then 00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:05.660 explored the mechanics and the role and the duty 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:08.079 and the almost weight of responsibility to juggling 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:11.539 power of respect for the dead or the dying because 00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:15.039 they choose the dead and then they die they don't 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.039 choose from the dead and then of course kind 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.839 of like answering to Odin and knowing how to 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:24.240 keep a balance of where people go because I'm 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.740 gonna say just because Odin is an underwriting 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:28.980 force for a lot of the conflicts building and 00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:31.160 building, building and building, both kind of 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.799 like on a personal level to a continental level, 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:37.759 aka Atilla the Hun and all that jazz, so to speak, 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:40.859 which really reflects Odin's character so well 00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:44.440 because so many times he's come up in modern 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.140 media, he's just not depicted, I think, as the 00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:51.440 knowledge hungry and power crazed and almost 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:55.140 like war. starved god that he is because he's 00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.920 always paranoid about Ragnarok. And I love how 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.220 there is a line quite near the beginning where 00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:02.460 I think kind of like, what do you dream about 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:04.319 Odin? Because I dream about people taking away 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.000 my power. I think that's a brilliant red light. 00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:09.279 Oh, he's got that underlying paranoia there. 00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:11.480 He's very much a control freak. He wants it all 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:16.079 for himself. And I know I'm just rambling. I 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.859 do have questions in here somewhere. It's all 00:27:18.859 --> 00:27:23.339 good. But you of course explore kind of like 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:25.900 not just like the balance of power because Freya 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:29.099 is certainly a powerful female entity in anthropology 00:27:29.099 --> 00:27:33.079 because of course she brings the cedar magic, 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.299 the cedar magic that Odin then of course pilfers 00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:37.720 because he's just pilfering knowledge here left 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.819 and centre. But of course the often overlooked 00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:44.619 and unheard of spiritual role of Dissir. versus 00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:47.740 Valkyries because I've read about this here in 00:27:47.740 --> 00:27:50.099 various non -fiction books as being alternative 00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:53.140 female spirits and how they're sometimes around 00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:54.559 to almost be like the fairy godmother to kind 00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.400 of guide people to the good path or try and stay 00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:59.200 away from the bad path but I like how you set 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.039 them up as very much Because often Freyja is 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.359 depicted as like the goddess of the Valkyries. 00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:07.680 Of course, they answer to Odin, not to Freyja. 00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:10.440 Even though Freyja, canonically, does select 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.779 half the dead to go to her hole in Valkvang. 00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:15.480 So again, that's a really interesting balance 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.619 you've explored. And I would love to know your 00:28:17.619 --> 00:28:21.559 thoughts on how and why you wrote what you did. 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:25.660 Yeah. Yeah. That was a real challenge for me 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:30.099 to decide how to incorporate that Norse mythology 00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:35.380 and um especially because uh you know people's 00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:37.519 knowledge of Norse mythology today I think is 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.319 going to be uh bits and pieces you know as as 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.279 why wouldn't it be uh you know little parts of 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.960 it that are better known than others um you know 00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.599 I mean the Marvel Cinematic Universe has has 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.380 uh has I think introduced a lot of characters 00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:54.619 in slightly different forms in different ways 00:28:54.619 --> 00:29:00.740 which I love but but it does sort of create an 00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:02.460 entry for people that are going to be having 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:04.920 those particular characters in mind and then 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:08.839 coming into the original mythology, it might 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.940 actually seem sort of unfamiliar, you know. So 00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:14.000 I thought a lot about how to incorporate that 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.880 and I was really taken with the duality or the 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:23.890 binary between Freya and Odin and the Aesir and 00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:25.930 the Vanir, this idea that there are these two 00:29:25.930 --> 00:29:30.509 groups of gods that had warred and fought and 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:32.309 there was a truce and there were some deals and 00:29:32.309 --> 00:29:34.549 bargains and magic was all part of the bargain 00:29:34.549 --> 00:29:37.970 and everything else. So none of that really gets 00:29:37.970 --> 00:29:42.450 explained completely in my novel. because it's 00:29:42.450 --> 00:29:44.190 not really about that but that's sort of the 00:29:44.190 --> 00:29:47.589 backdrop that there are these power dynamics 00:29:47.589 --> 00:29:50.410 happening with the gods themselves and that explains 00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:53.289 some of their behaviour. So I think that for 00:29:53.289 --> 00:29:58.329 people who know that mythology in more detail, 00:29:58.869 --> 00:30:00.789 they can understand what's happening there and 00:30:00.789 --> 00:30:04.049 I hope that readers who don't will at least get 00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:06.690 this sense of what some of the relationships 00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:08.529 are and I tried to just put them on the page. 00:30:09.609 --> 00:30:11.230 and these are you know different these are my 00:30:11.230 --> 00:30:13.509 versions of Freya and Odin you know like they're 00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:15.170 they're always going to be every interpretation 00:30:15.170 --> 00:30:17.150 is going to be different um but I really did 00:30:17.150 --> 00:30:22.029 love that um that idea uh and it was a challenge 00:30:22.029 --> 00:30:25.490 too you know I did want to have um I needed to 00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:27.970 have the afterlife present in some sense in this 00:30:27.970 --> 00:30:30.710 book because um you know this is such a big part 00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:33.750 of what what Valkyries do as you say it's uh 00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:36.440 it's central to them but I had I had to think 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:38.339 about how am I going to interpret this for a 00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.519 modern audience and explain the concept of the 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.670 multiple afterlives. And how does that make sense 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:48.250 in a novel in which you've got, it's set in the 00:30:48.250 --> 00:30:50.650 real world where you will have, you know, Christians 00:30:50.650 --> 00:30:53.890 and Jews and, you know, not Muslims yet, but, 00:30:53.910 --> 00:30:57.750 you know, like Zoroastrians and, you know, different 00:30:57.750 --> 00:31:01.650 faith systems, including old versions of what 00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:03.910 we would now think of as sort of Viking belief 00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:07.069 happening as well in Europe and how to be respectful 00:31:07.069 --> 00:31:09.490 of all of that. Anyway, so now I'm rambling, 00:31:09.670 --> 00:31:14.049 but yeah, it's all sort of went into this too, 00:31:14.089 --> 00:31:15.829 you know, and I thought of, okay, well, how am 00:31:15.829 --> 00:31:20.589 I going to make an afterlife in this novel that 00:31:20.589 --> 00:31:25.410 makes sense with all of that and feels like it 00:31:25.410 --> 00:31:29.130 could be integrated into the real world in some 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:33.000 way, but also honours. the stories that this 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.380 comes from. So I really loved, it was just one 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:38.119 of my favourite parts of the book was writing 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:43.440 the realm of hell and the realm of Freya, because 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.400 they're not as well known as the male -dominated 00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:51.269 afterlife of Ohala. Yeah I really like that and 00:31:51.269 --> 00:31:53.509 of course it made me have a light bulb and I 00:31:53.509 --> 00:31:55.809 thought oh yeah kind of like because in your 00:31:55.809 --> 00:31:58.990 book you depict that Bryn Hild became a Valkyrie 00:31:58.990 --> 00:32:01.309 through some sort of human sacrifice when she 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:04.190 was a little girl and I quite like the image 00:32:04.190 --> 00:32:06.069 you depicted of Odin taking her hand and leading 00:32:06.069 --> 00:32:08.289 her off and then six years later she's a trained 00:32:08.289 --> 00:32:12.250 and fled Valkyrie. It instantly made me think 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:16.109 for some reason of I think it's on Netflix of 00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:18.789 the Echo series that Marvel's done with Kingpin 00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:21.269 having that little girl come under the thing. 00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:23.029 I haven't seen it, so I don't know anything about 00:32:23.029 --> 00:32:25.009 that kind of comic thing, but it just made me 00:32:25.009 --> 00:32:29.049 think of that particular scene. But of course 00:32:29.049 --> 00:32:31.829 then she's technically dead already, so then 00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:34.509 when she comes back to mortal life, yes, she's 00:32:34.509 --> 00:32:37.410 kind of like living again, but then the biggest 00:32:37.410 --> 00:32:40.839 and I think the most delightful twist is... that 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.859 in your telling, retelling, I should say, you've 00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.220 not just have Sigurd bathed in Fafnir's blood 00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:48.740 but you've also had Brynhildr do it simply because 00:32:48.740 --> 00:32:50.759 they were both together when they killed Fafnir 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.839 and Sigurd is the one that I much like, oh look, 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:57.319 I can stab my hand and nothing happens. And I 00:32:57.319 --> 00:32:59.660 just love how he just remarks upon that after 00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:02.500 she's just woken up from her own ordeal of the 00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:05.799 battle and the seat that... It's a very visceral 00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:07.759 scene you describe of her bathing, and I thought 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.500 that was... Yeah, it made my stomach churn for 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:14.359 her. Yeah, it's gross. It's gross, yeah. But 00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.519 then, of course, they're kind of like, they're 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.380 immortal, or at least can't be killed by blade, 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.519 so to speak, unless... Apart from Sigurd, of 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.259 course, with his one spot behind his shoulder, 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:27.680 which I always thought was a leaf, partly because 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.680 I grew up watching the Sword of Xamten film adaptation. 00:33:30.819 --> 00:33:32.460 I don't know if you've seen the Sword of Xamten 00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:35.609 before. I haven't. No. I will have to ping you 00:33:35.609 --> 00:33:37.589 over the details. It should be out there on DVD 00:33:37.589 --> 00:33:39.710 somewhere. It's been out for a good 10 years 00:33:39.710 --> 00:33:44.650 or so. But that's a really nice film adaptation 00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:46.210 of the side of the ball song from The Nibble 00:33:46.210 --> 00:33:48.829 on the Inn and that kind of thing. And it's a 00:33:48.829 --> 00:33:50.470 leaf that falls on his shoulder and that's what 00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:53.930 stops that spot getting protected by the magic 00:33:53.930 --> 00:33:56.730 of Fatinist Blood. But in the battle it's Brynhildr 00:33:56.730 --> 00:33:58.150 because he pushes him out of the way before he 00:33:58.150 --> 00:34:02.309 gets chomped as he usually does. I'm trying not 00:34:02.309 --> 00:34:04.289 to. OK, right, I'll speak about Sigurd. No, I'll 00:34:04.289 --> 00:34:05.910 speak about Sigurd in a minute. What I was trying 00:34:05.910 --> 00:34:11.610 to say was about how, of course, in the canonical 00:34:11.610 --> 00:34:13.590 story, Brynhill does kind of throw herself on 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:17.320 the pyre with Sigurd. But in this case they have 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:20.260 two separate fires and I wasn't sure, and I'm 00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:21.900 sure you can correct me on this, because I haven't 00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:24.960 quite re -read the full ending yet. But I remember 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.699 when Sigurd first tasted Fafnir's heart's blood 00:34:27.699 --> 00:34:29.699 but he remarks, oh it hurts but it doesn't burn. 00:34:29.739 --> 00:34:31.639 So then I'm like, okay, well how do you burn 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:33.860 their bodies then if they're also fireproof? 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:37.800 And thus I wasn't sure how Brynhild was able 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.389 to die for a second time. In the player because 00:34:41.389 --> 00:34:43.590 she wasn't burning, but I know obviously you 00:34:43.590 --> 00:34:45.550 can die from smoke inhalation. I don't know if 00:34:45.550 --> 00:34:48.269 that's what I'm sorry if I'm thinking that too 00:34:48.269 --> 00:34:55.210 practically The same thought process yeah, so 00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.789 his You know, there's a little bit of ambiguity 00:34:58.789 --> 00:35:01.489 I think in in my telling of the story in terms 00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:04.650 of Bernold's status, you know as whether she's 00:35:04.650 --> 00:35:08.469 completely mortal or not and she's At the beginning 00:35:08.469 --> 00:35:10.369 of the book, you know, she's she's quite clear 00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:13.469 that you know Odin has made her a woman again 00:35:13.469 --> 00:35:17.650 and she always was you know in my my sort of 00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:19.969 hand wavy approach to what the Valkyries are 00:35:19.969 --> 00:35:21.969 like as you say I've decided that they started 00:35:21.969 --> 00:35:25.690 as humans in my particular version of them and 00:35:25.690 --> 00:35:28.690 and they just don't age because they're usually 00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:31.909 in Valhalla and They they live very very long 00:35:31.909 --> 00:35:34.050 times, but there's they still age a little bit 00:35:35.650 --> 00:35:39.309 And so she is just a mortal in my conception 00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:41.869 of her, but she does bathe in Fafnir's blood, 00:35:41.989 --> 00:35:45.590 which confers this invulnerability to her skin. 00:35:45.969 --> 00:35:48.269 And maybe she's got like a little bit of extra 00:35:48.269 --> 00:35:50.550 something special, you know, because she used 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:53.530 to be a valkyrie. So she does manage to survive 00:35:53.530 --> 00:35:57.539 this fall. But it's surviving in a very strange 00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:59.559 and mythic way because she does go to the underworld, 00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:02.599 right? So it's sort of half and half. And when 00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:05.340 she gets there, Hell says, you know, like, what's 00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:08.260 going on? Something's odd about you that you're 00:36:08.260 --> 00:36:11.119 not quite living quite, not quite dead. So and 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:16.619 I think I was partly, you know, partly just trying 00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:19.860 to sort of make sense of the stories in the source 00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:21.639 material themselves, you know, because as you 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.480 say, she does, she does go on to a pyre in the 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:29.099 story. And then being a mythological tale, there's 00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:32.920 then these other things, like there's a poem 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:35.159 called The Hell Riot of Brunhilde, which explains, 00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:38.039 talks about her going down into the underworld. 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:43.800 And, you know, there are, aspects of the story 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.980 that continue even after death. And so I needed 00:36:46.980 --> 00:36:50.960 to sort of find a way to tell that and still 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.400 have her be embodied in some way in a kind of 00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.300 modern conception, like, you know, because the 00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:56.719 questions of like, well, is she living or is 00:36:56.719 --> 00:36:59.960 she dead? I think we're, you know, every society 00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:03.699 will think about that in different ways. So that's 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:05.380 sort of where I was coming from there in terms 00:37:05.380 --> 00:37:10.500 of how can... you know, how can we have this 00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:13.780 moment feel real and feel embodied and corporeal, 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.500 but also draw in some of these sort of mythic 00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:23.679 stories about afterlives and impossible happenings. 00:37:24.500 --> 00:37:27.079 And it's, I think one of the things that inspired 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:32.639 that to some degree as well is the novel, The 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:34.280 Hero and the Crown. Have you ever read that one? 00:37:34.659 --> 00:37:38.769 No, not heard that one. Yeah, it has nothing 00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:42.730 to do with Norse mythology, but it's a novel 00:37:42.730 --> 00:37:45.329 by Robin McKinley that was really influential 00:37:45.329 --> 00:37:47.710 when I was growing up on me and I've read it 00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:49.949 many times. And it is about a dragon slayer. 00:37:50.130 --> 00:37:53.010 It's about a female dragon slayer. And so I think 00:37:53.010 --> 00:37:55.769 that novel inspired a lot of how I conceived 00:37:55.769 --> 00:38:01.090 of Fafnir. But also, I think just in general, 00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:03.969 it was always in the back of my mind. And the 00:38:03.969 --> 00:38:07.489 character in The Hero and the Crown, um also 00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:11.070 has a kind of ambiguous relationship with mortality 00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:14.849 by the end of it. So you know she bathes in a 00:38:14.849 --> 00:38:17.070 lake and it's like you know she she's not quite 00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:20.269 human at the end but she so she mostly is and 00:38:20.269 --> 00:38:24.409 so I think that that idea of you know there there's 00:38:24.409 --> 00:38:26.789 some sort of magic happening that we're not it's 00:38:26.789 --> 00:38:29.929 not quite making sense um that was always really 00:38:29.929 --> 00:38:32.730 appealing to me and that probably came apart 00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:37.269 from from the hero and the crown as well. Well 00:38:37.269 --> 00:38:39.349 thank you, that was really interesting to hear 00:38:39.349 --> 00:38:42.130 because it made me think back because I was reading 00:38:42.130 --> 00:38:45.530 just before we both came online the scene where 00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:47.730 Gudrun is in the tent with Brynhildr, I'm not 00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:49.449 going to say location or place of the story but 00:38:49.449 --> 00:38:52.780 they're in a tent and Gudrun is quite... innocently 00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:54.699 and charmingly asking Brinthill questions about 00:38:54.699 --> 00:38:56.639 the afterlife in Valhalla and Brinthill's trying 00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:00.119 to explain it's not the body we take it's kind 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.400 of like the brain because as Odin told her it's 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.179 the brain that distinguishes a warrior from a 00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:06.679 murderer kind of like you take the imprint of 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:08.699 the world on the mind or the mind of the world 00:39:08.699 --> 00:39:11.900 and that's what we take up and reading that certainly 00:39:11.900 --> 00:39:14.800 made me reflect to kind of like my own experience 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.239 in dabbling with Assassin's Creed Valhalla which 00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:19.099 you may or may not be aware of from your fictional 00:39:19.099 --> 00:39:22.309 work with them. because I happily played through 00:39:22.309 --> 00:39:25.389 their discovery tour of the Viking Age and they 00:39:25.389 --> 00:39:28.969 follow a particular character that ends up in 00:39:28.969 --> 00:39:31.349 Jotunheim because he gets killed but he can't 00:39:31.349 --> 00:39:34.869 remember why and he speaks to an NPC character 00:39:34.869 --> 00:39:36.489 outside Mimmi as well he was like oh I've given 00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:38.349 up my augur I've given up my augur I can't go 00:39:38.349 --> 00:39:40.789 back now and he told me I'd find out who was 00:39:40.789 --> 00:39:42.789 the guy who did the dad dealing and it was like 00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:45.750 it was an interesting aspect of certainly Norse 00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:48.460 culture all the way the Norse and I'm speaking 00:39:48.460 --> 00:39:51.300 of course broadly Scandinavia here as well as 00:39:51.300 --> 00:39:54.920 Iceland, kind of like viewed parts of themselves 00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.440 as like not just a body and a soul but like four 00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.199 different elements I think they had and I thought 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:01.480 that was a really nice reflection of that of 00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:03.659 you having Brynhild to try and explain that to 00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:06.619 Gudrun because I certainly wouldn't be able to 00:40:06.619 --> 00:40:10.699 explain it any better either. Yeah that was that 00:40:10.699 --> 00:40:12.199 was one of the challenges for me and I think 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.039 actually That was something that I worked on 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:20.500 in later drafts because when I had given an early 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:23.239 draft of this to my agent, one of her comments 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:26.880 was, you know, I'm not quite getting how the 00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.699 afterlife works here. What the sort of cosmology 00:40:30.699 --> 00:40:34.320 is behind this and why the characters believe 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.500 what they believe and that kind of thing. And 00:40:36.500 --> 00:40:38.380 I can't remember exactly what I had in the early 00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:41.860 draft, but it was not... I was never quite comfortable 00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.260 with it. I was struggling with trying to figure 00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:47.699 out how to translate those older ideas about 00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:52.000 the self into a modern concept. I think because 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:58.000 we do have those of us reading it now from a 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:03.000 European or European colonial mindset are coming 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.739 from a long, long history of understanding death 00:41:06.739 --> 00:41:10.340 and the soul in a certain way, you know, even 00:41:10.340 --> 00:41:15.039 if one is not religious, you know, we're just 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:17.420 totally affected by and sort of swimming in a 00:41:17.420 --> 00:41:19.739 long culture that was affected by those ideas 00:41:19.739 --> 00:41:23.699 of the soul and several world religions. But 00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:26.539 as you say, there are some concepts of the self 00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:29.760 and the afterlife that come through from old 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:34.010 texts that are quite different. So yeah, so eventually 00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:36.610 I just, I thought well this relationship between 00:41:36.610 --> 00:41:40.070 Gudrun and Brunhild will be a good way to explore 00:41:40.070 --> 00:41:42.329 that question because they do actually come from 00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:46.750 two different cultures within the story. And 00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:50.349 that gives me a chance for Brunhild to talk about 00:41:50.349 --> 00:41:53.309 the different ways that the afterlife pulls pieces 00:41:53.309 --> 00:41:58.230 of the self. And so you can have in a single 00:41:58.230 --> 00:42:01.099 conception of uh what it means to be a human 00:42:01.099 --> 00:42:03.800 you can have stories that have ghosts and have 00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:06.420 sort of almost zombie -like revenant creatures 00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:08.539 and you can also have ohala and you can have 00:42:08.539 --> 00:42:11.079 folkvang and hell and there's a there's an undersea 00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:13.980 underworld as well and all of this makes sense 00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:16.400 you know so that really was a challenge but i 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:18.960 was i was quite proud by the end of it that i 00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.539 felt i had uh explained all of that in a way 00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:24.440 without you know needing to say well let's have 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:27.880 a long lecture now but you know about Plato's 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.059 conception of the soul or something but you know 00:42:31.059 --> 00:42:33.800 it did sort of integrate itself into the novel 00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:37.079 and I felt like it needed to to be part of it 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.800 for for their understanding of what the afterlife 00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:42.000 was to come through to a modern reader but it 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:48.539 was it was tough to get there for sure. Back 00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:50.900 to I guess the original question about where 00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:54.889 this all began so of course you would experiencing 00:42:54.889 --> 00:42:57.250 or exploring Norse mythology through your son, 00:42:57.349 --> 00:42:59.110 but did you have an interest in it before your 00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:01.369 son also had an interest or was it just did it 00:43:01.369 --> 00:43:04.449 to spark at the same time as your son was learning 00:43:04.449 --> 00:43:07.829 more? Yeah, I always have been interested in 00:43:07.829 --> 00:43:10.369 it. I've been interested in mythology in general, 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:13.789 you know, since I was a kid. And, you know, I 00:43:13.789 --> 00:43:17.030 remember reading Edith Hamilton books about mythology 00:43:17.030 --> 00:43:22.090 and just storytelling and coming to it, I think. 00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:26.960 through modern versions of it to some extent 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:30.400 as well. And because of Tolkien, Tolkien was 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.380 so inspired by this story. He read a version 00:43:35.380 --> 00:43:39.500 of the Sigurd, the dragon slayer story in the 00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:42.699 red fairy book when he was a child. And that 00:43:42.699 --> 00:43:45.440 was one of his formative experiences. So that 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.489 story was always with him. and of course then 00:43:48.489 --> 00:43:50.469 Tolkien was really formative for me. I read The 00:43:50.469 --> 00:43:53.070 Lord of the Rings when I was a young teen and 00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:55.610 have read it many times since and it was always 00:43:55.610 --> 00:43:57.429 there for me in the back of my mind and the love 00:43:57.429 --> 00:44:02.210 of runes from Tolkien. So yes I've always been 00:44:02.210 --> 00:44:04.949 interested in it in sort of indirect fashion 00:44:04.949 --> 00:44:10.030 as well. Cool and have you read any in particular, 00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:12.449 any kind of like Norse mythological retellings 00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:15.329 or authors that you might recommend or books 00:44:15.329 --> 00:44:19.889 that you would recommend? That's a good question. 00:44:20.010 --> 00:44:21.230 That's one of those questions where as soon as 00:44:21.230 --> 00:44:22.730 I get off the call, I'm going to think about 00:44:22.730 --> 00:44:27.829 three things that I should have mentioned. I 00:44:27.829 --> 00:44:30.130 mean, I know you've mentioned Neil Gaiman's retelling, 00:44:30.190 --> 00:44:32.969 which I also absolutely loved. And then I went 00:44:32.969 --> 00:44:35.130 and listened to an audible, which he self narrates, 00:44:35.190 --> 00:44:37.110 which is even better. So I kind of like, oh, 00:44:37.610 --> 00:44:41.610 yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, he's brilliant. I'm trying 00:44:41.610 --> 00:44:46.389 to think, this one is not exactly Norse pathology, 00:44:46.610 --> 00:44:53.489 but one of my favorite recent sort of historical 00:44:53.489 --> 00:44:57.510 looks at this sort of culture is a book called 00:44:57.510 --> 00:45:01.630 All the Horses of Iceland by Sarah, I want to 00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:04.630 say Tumi, something like that, which is a very 00:45:04.630 --> 00:45:07.210 short book and it's a narrative sort of grounded 00:45:07.210 --> 00:45:10.619 in history about A person who travels from Iceland 00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:13.599 during the middle ages into Europe But it's really 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.920 informed by a lot of folklore and storytelling 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:19.480 as well So that's the first one that springs 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:25.099 to mind in terms of retellings Yeah, I know that 00:45:25.099 --> 00:45:27.000 there's something that is just in the back of 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.260 my mind that I want to mention So if it comes 00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:30.599 up to me as we're talking, I'll say oh, this 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.219 is what it is. But yeah, there's been a lot of 00:45:33.219 --> 00:45:38.670 really wonderful You know just illustrated books 00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:40.929 about the myths and that kind of thing coming 00:45:40.929 --> 00:45:43.849 out in the last 10 years or so and it seems like 00:45:43.849 --> 00:45:45.369 every time I go into the store I see another 00:45:45.369 --> 00:45:48.309 beautiful illustrated mythology edition. So it's 00:45:48.309 --> 00:45:52.110 wonderful to see and it's such an explosion of 00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:56.829 retellings in general right now as well. So yeah. 00:45:57.050 --> 00:45:58.849 Well that leads me on to my next question because 00:45:58.849 --> 00:46:00.610 I was going to ask kind of like how do you feel 00:46:00.610 --> 00:46:04.090 about seeing I mean I guess you could say kind 00:46:04.090 --> 00:46:06.820 of like more widely different mythology but it's 00:46:06.820 --> 00:46:08.880 a particular Norse mythology and just Vikings 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.579 in general as the broad umbrella term that they 00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:13.960 now are and I'm not going to mention horned helmets, 00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:19.099 no, horned helmets. um kind of like has just 00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:22.440 has a huge surge in the last 10 years or so because 00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.320 they have always been around certainly kind of 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.019 like where I come from of course in Britain it's 00:46:26.019 --> 00:46:28.079 part of our history and heritage and culture 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.019 and it's always on the syllabus at some point 00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:32.699 in some year at some school college and I do 00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:35.019 wish I could go back and study it properly and 00:46:35.019 --> 00:46:37.300 do history all the way through from GCSE but 00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:39.679 English, I went down the English route instead. 00:46:39.739 --> 00:46:41.880 So here I am just talking about it instead of 00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.920 doing lots of rereadings. But I'm always curious 00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:48.179 to see how people feel. Is it a good thing, whether 00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:49.659 the modern interpretations are doing anything 00:46:49.659 --> 00:46:52.980 wrong or misleading audiences or that kind of 00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:57.599 thing? Yeah, I think it's a great thing. I think 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:06.219 it is such an elastic kind of storytelling network, 00:47:06.219 --> 00:47:08.619 I guess you could say, like the network of stories 00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:11.719 is very resilient. And I think, you know, you 00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:15.900 can't really wreck it. It's been there long before 00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:17.920 we were around and it'll be here long after us. 00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:21.300 And I think that, you know, it's wonderful to 00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:25.039 see different interpretations coming in and, 00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:26.960 you know, feminist and queer interpretations 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:31.019 of the stories, you know, which are, you know, 00:47:31.300 --> 00:47:34.099 not, as you mentioned, you know, There's plenty 00:47:34.099 --> 00:47:37.079 of scope. There's always been gender fluidity 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.300 and different concepts of sexuality and that 00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.239 kind of thing in Norse mythology. So it's not 00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:45.300 so much a placing of those ideas on old stories, 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.139 but a kind of discovering of different historical 00:47:48.139 --> 00:47:50.559 traditions and how they can speak to us today. 00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:56.159 So I think it is really rich in material that 00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:59.559 we can use to explore what it means to be a person 00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:04.630 alive in our time. And at the same time, you 00:48:04.630 --> 00:48:06.409 know, one of the things that I was really conscious 00:48:06.409 --> 00:48:11.949 of when I was working on this book is that the 00:48:11.949 --> 00:48:15.449 Germanic side of it, you know, the sort of the 00:48:15.449 --> 00:48:20.550 side that was explored by Wagner and others was 00:48:20.550 --> 00:48:24.030 really appealing to the Nazis, right? And the 00:48:24.030 --> 00:48:27.329 idea of Siegfried as this or Sigurd or Siegfried 00:48:27.329 --> 00:48:33.130 as this, you know, perfect Aryan hero was a version 00:48:33.130 --> 00:48:35.949 that that was their interpretation and how they 00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:39.909 used the story for their own ends. So I think 00:48:39.909 --> 00:48:42.429 that's part of it as well and I think taking 00:48:42.429 --> 00:48:45.889 the story then and reimagining it and pulling 00:48:45.889 --> 00:48:49.250 it out of that context and confronting it in 00:48:49.250 --> 00:48:51.250 that context as well and saying okay well what 00:48:51.250 --> 00:48:54.230 does it mean to be a hero and and how can we 00:48:54.570 --> 00:48:56.889 look at stories of heroes and understand how 00:48:56.889 --> 00:48:58.929 they've been used and abused and misused over 00:48:58.929 --> 00:49:01.030 the years, that's all part of the tradition as 00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:04.130 well. So, yeah, so I think it is really useful 00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:07.269 for every generation to come up with their own 00:49:07.269 --> 00:49:11.210 look at old stories and the whole tradition of 00:49:11.210 --> 00:49:15.010 that story as well. That's just made me think 00:49:15.010 --> 00:49:17.349 about, of course, the character of Sigurd, who 00:49:17.349 --> 00:49:18.909 we haven't really touched much on because, of 00:49:18.909 --> 00:49:20.769 course, he is there, but he doesn't have the 00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:24.519 same spotlight as the Vastarei with the feminine 00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:26.599 characters of course including Loki that you've 00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:29.360 got and I remember I quite quickly became to 00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:32.980 dislike him and I do hope that was the intention 00:49:32.980 --> 00:49:36.659 because I think it was the way he treated Brunhilde 00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:38.699 after they both killed the dragon and he decided 00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:41.539 he was just going to go off on his own. Of course 00:49:41.539 --> 00:49:44.780 partly because he through taking in the blood 00:49:44.780 --> 00:49:47.380 of Fafnir's heart absorbed the knowledge that 00:49:47.380 --> 00:49:49.159 Brunhilde had of talking with the birds and learned 00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.380 all the birds are bad madding about Regan and 00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:54.210 how he's going to get got and and that kind of 00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:58.389 thing and how well he kind of explored his character 00:49:58.389 --> 00:50:02.789 having almost a real... I want to say ego crisis 00:50:02.789 --> 00:50:04.489 but it's almost like a self -esteem crisis in 00:50:04.489 --> 00:50:06.849 that he so badly wants to be the hero because 00:50:06.849 --> 00:50:09.030 he wanted to prove himself to Regan but now he 00:50:09.030 --> 00:50:10.730 doesn't want to go near Regan because Regan's 00:50:10.730 --> 00:50:12.409 apparently a threat so now he's got to show himself 00:50:12.409 --> 00:50:16.800 to the world. around and how he instantly identifies 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.840 Brunnhilde as like his weakness is a kiddies 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:20.800 heel because he doesn't want anyone to know that 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.659 she helped him and why he became so outraged 00:50:23.659 --> 00:50:26.079 that he learned that she was a Valkyrie because 00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.000 oh well you effectively cheated then because 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:29.360 you're a superhero and you could have killed 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:31.820 it already you didn't need me and that kind of 00:50:31.820 --> 00:50:33.539 thing. I thought that is a really interesting 00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:36.920 tape because of course in the song with the Volstons 00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:41.199 he doesn't have a lot of character, something 00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:43.840 to speak in that particular saga. He just comes 00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:45.980 out across as like the typical kind of quite 00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:49.860 self -confident guy that'll just kind of like 00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:52.300 happily save a damsel, take all the wisdom, say 00:50:52.300 --> 00:50:54.380 okay I'm going to marry you now and then that's 00:50:54.380 --> 00:50:59.199 it. Yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah it's funny because 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:01.940 I was talking about this book with the book club 00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:04.699 last week and there was this everyone said, oh, 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:09.440 I hate Sigurd, you know, you're not the only 00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:13.059 one. And definitely he's, you know, one of the 00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:17.400 things I did want to do was flip around the idea 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:23.340 of this lone masculine hero. And, you know, one 00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:24.880 of the things I think it's interesting about 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:30.400 that is that most of the moments in his story 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:34.300 are not actually that different in my novel than, 00:51:34.300 --> 00:51:36.380 you know, in the source material. I mean, there 00:51:36.380 --> 00:51:38.000 are different interpretations and different things. 00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:39.639 But if you think about like, well, yeah, he does 00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:42.059 trick Bryn Hild in the story and he does leave 00:51:42.059 --> 00:51:45.719 her and he does, you know, as you say, he sort 00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.880 of just marches along and says, well, I'll, you 00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:51.480 know, I'm the hero and this is what I do. And 00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:57.340 so But looking at it from her perspective, and 00:51:57.340 --> 00:51:59.860 also, I mean, and I did interpret things differently 00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:01.599 and think about motivations and that kind of 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:04.679 thing differently. But it did feel to me like 00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.980 you could tell the story and the events would 00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:11.019 be pretty much the same. But depending on how 00:52:11.019 --> 00:52:16.360 you look at it, either he's, you know, this wonderful 00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:19.860 heroic figure, or he is someone who is just unable 00:52:19.860 --> 00:52:28.269 to accept that he's not perfect and that he's 00:52:28.269 --> 00:52:31.309 sort of the unearned golden boy and sort of the 00:52:31.309 --> 00:52:33.449 epitome of privilege in some sense. Even though 00:52:33.449 --> 00:52:35.070 he doesn't come from a privileged background, 00:52:35.110 --> 00:52:37.269 but he has this idea that he is the chosen one 00:52:37.269 --> 00:52:39.730 and he's the one who's going to save the day. 00:52:41.230 --> 00:52:45.590 So it was very much a kind of deliberate subversion 00:52:45.590 --> 00:52:51.110 of the idea of the chosen one hero. And poor 00:52:51.110 --> 00:52:53.929 Sigurd kind of gets the brunt of that in my telling. 00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:55.989 I do feel a little bit badly for him because 00:52:55.989 --> 00:52:59.690 I think he is being manipulated. But it's his 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:01.570 own choice to kind of go along with that. And 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:06.150 he has agency, he has the ability to not be that 00:53:06.150 --> 00:53:09.610 guy. And he doesn't take the chance. He just, 00:53:09.849 --> 00:53:12.230 you know, he says, no, this is, you know, he 00:53:12.230 --> 00:53:14.670 can't see himself any other way. And eventually 00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:17.190 he just sort of goes down that path. it does 00:53:17.190 --> 00:53:19.590 and it really ramps up towards the end of kind 00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:24.929 of like his climactic canonical death and end 00:53:24.929 --> 00:53:26.929 scene and of course it's only in your expanded 00:53:26.929 --> 00:53:30.090 ending where kind of Brynhild finds him in hell 00:53:30.090 --> 00:53:32.349 and also meets the disheared Freyja that she 00:53:32.349 --> 00:53:34.190 kind of then learns that kind of like Odin was 00:53:34.190 --> 00:53:39.230 the one whispering all these suggestions, encouragements, 00:53:39.570 --> 00:53:41.969 misdirections and I love how Odin is definitely 00:53:41.969 --> 00:53:44.210 a master of misdirection I mean even at the start 00:53:44.210 --> 00:53:46.690 when Brintell says okay then tell me where to 00:53:46.690 --> 00:53:48.690 go if you are the only one he goes well you can 00:53:48.690 --> 00:53:50.630 go left or you can go right he goes well either 00:53:50.630 --> 00:53:53.250 way i'm following what you want i'm not i'm not 00:53:53.250 --> 00:53:57.429 doing it myself and it i think that really reflected 00:53:57.429 --> 00:54:00.090 how Odin's present is throughout kind of the 00:54:00.090 --> 00:54:03.050 entire Volsung line from before Sigurd's time 00:54:03.050 --> 00:54:05.429 all the way through to kind of like his and Goodwin's 00:54:05.429 --> 00:54:07.690 end and that kind of thing is He's always in 00:54:07.690 --> 00:54:09.869 the background pulling the strings. He's almost 00:54:09.869 --> 00:54:13.030 like more, he's more trickster -y than Loki is. 00:54:13.670 --> 00:54:15.250 And speaking of Loki, there was one question 00:54:15.250 --> 00:54:17.469 that did have them in my mind. Of course, with 00:54:17.469 --> 00:54:21.150 a scene that Loki's in, love to see more of that 00:54:21.150 --> 00:54:22.789 one. So if you ever want to do a Loki -less novel, 00:54:23.070 --> 00:54:26.119 please do, just saying. No pressure, no pressure. 00:54:27.619 --> 00:54:29.000 Loki's definitely the flavour of the month, if 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:32.579 not the century. He mentions how, well, they 00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:34.659 mention how they're being used as kind of like 00:54:34.659 --> 00:54:36.480 a feint in misdirection. They've been sent to 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:38.739 thieve something by Aeridanast. I think, well, 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:43.019 what is Loki thieving from Freyja? Because I'm 00:54:43.019 --> 00:54:45.440 trying to think of all the myths that Loki thieves 00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:48.170 things. And the only thing I can think of is 00:54:48.170 --> 00:54:50.309 something to do with her cloak. But in the myths 00:54:50.309 --> 00:54:52.949 that I know of, he didn't exactly steal it. He 00:54:52.949 --> 00:54:54.929 asked, she was a bit reluctant, and then she 00:54:54.929 --> 00:54:58.269 gives it to him. And I think it's mainly to do 00:54:58.269 --> 00:54:59.969 with the myth of Sif's hair getting lost, and 00:54:59.969 --> 00:55:02.409 how he used to go fly off and speak to the dwarves. 00:55:02.409 --> 00:55:03.969 So I don't know if you could maybe kind of fill 00:55:03.969 --> 00:55:06.929 in that little hole that my brain is eager to 00:55:06.929 --> 00:55:09.670 know. Kind of like, what was Loki doing? Yes, 00:55:09.750 --> 00:55:12.130 yeah, yeah. I wonder if I'm going to be able 00:55:12.130 --> 00:55:14.929 to, because I'll have to think about it. So one 00:55:14.929 --> 00:55:17.760 of the... One of the things that I was referencing 00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:21.639 there was what is it called? The Rissingamon, 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:25.260 which is her necklace. So Freya has a necklace. 00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.159 But I can't recall how I wrote it now where I 00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:32.820 decided that Loki was actually going to steal 00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:35.139 it at that moment or had stolen it before. There 00:55:35.139 --> 00:55:40.239 was a reference to it. But there is this sort 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:46.840 of pattern of uh some of the other gods going 00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:49.960 and bothering Freya about things you know uh 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:52.619 that her necklace at one point and um there's 00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:57.000 that story i'm trying to remember the exact isn't 00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:59.659 there's Freya's involved in there's a story where 00:55:59.659 --> 00:56:03.400 um you know Thor and Loki both dress up as women 00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:07.539 and Thor is the yes that's my favorite one that 00:56:07.539 --> 00:56:10.579 is my favorite one yeah i'm pretty sure Loki 00:56:10.579 --> 00:56:12.579 asks if they can borrow Freya's necklace and 00:56:12.579 --> 00:56:17.449 she says no unequivocally no right exactly exactly 00:56:17.449 --> 00:56:19.670 yeah so i don't think there was any particular 00:56:19.670 --> 00:56:21.630 item that i thought that loki was going to steal 00:56:21.630 --> 00:56:24.289 if i'm remembering my own thought process correctly 00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:29.489 don't worry i know it's probably yeah but it 00:56:29.489 --> 00:56:31.829 was it was sort of that pattern of it seems like 00:56:31.829 --> 00:56:33.730 these guys are always going to bug her about 00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:36.090 something or to trick her or something like that 00:56:36.090 --> 00:56:38.650 and i thought okay well um this will be some 00:56:38.650 --> 00:56:45.199 one one of those adventures so Going back then 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.519 to Freya, kind of like, what was your thought 00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:50.880 process behind involving the Desir and having 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:55.679 them be under her, kind of like, not, I say control, 00:56:55.860 --> 00:56:59.000 but certainly almost command influence, and certainly 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:01.780 in a more amicable atmosphere from what we see 00:57:01.780 --> 00:57:03.780 in the book to the way the Valkyries are under 00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:05.400 Odin, where it's very almost like a military 00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.699 boot camp, but with kind of like, they train 00:57:08.699 --> 00:57:13.429 the horses to fly, which I absolutely love. Yeah, 00:57:14.809 --> 00:57:17.949 yeah, so I, yeah, as you say that this year are 00:57:17.949 --> 00:57:20.929 not, they're not as well known, I think, especially 00:57:20.929 --> 00:57:23.349 to sort of an Anglophone audience today, it's, 00:57:23.349 --> 00:57:27.269 they're not, we don't have this sort of mental 00:57:27.269 --> 00:57:29.349 image of them the way that we do with the Valkyries. 00:57:29.869 --> 00:57:35.550 And so one possibility for me was I thought, 00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:37.730 well, I could try to make them really similar 00:57:37.730 --> 00:57:40.969 to the Valkyries, but I think they do come from 00:57:40.969 --> 00:57:45.769 a slightly different folkloric strand. They have 00:57:45.769 --> 00:57:51.210 this association of being kind of spirits in 00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:53.829 a bigger sense rather than the shield maidens 00:57:53.829 --> 00:57:56.429 of the Valkyries. So even though they're doing 00:57:56.429 --> 00:57:59.829 a similar function, especially in the interpretation 00:57:59.829 --> 00:58:03.440 that I've used here in the book, They're not 00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.320 exactly the same. You know, they're not they're 00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:08.800 not exactly the same sort of being So I was really 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:12.960 I kind of thought a lot about how to have this 00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:17.760 other set of female choosers of the dead And 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:19.539 you know, how would they be different from the 00:58:19.539 --> 00:58:21.360 Valkyries? But how would they also kind of they 00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:23.880 must have a relationship with them in some way 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:26.539 So they were a chance to create almost a kind 00:58:26.539 --> 00:58:29.860 of foil and say well, you know what Odin has 00:58:29.860 --> 00:58:34.960 created here is not somehow inevitable, you know, 00:58:35.019 --> 00:58:37.079 that he made choices for how he was going to 00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:41.059 deal with this system of the dead. And also I 00:58:41.059 --> 00:58:46.300 was really intrigued by the concept, which, you 00:58:46.300 --> 00:58:49.599 know, I didn't invent of, as you say, that the 00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.360 half of the dead in battle would go to Folkvang 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:56.809 and half of them would go to Valhalla. this sort 00:58:56.809 --> 00:59:00.429 of almost bureaucratic system of how do you choose 00:59:00.429 --> 00:59:04.230 which half? And how does that all work out in 00:59:04.230 --> 00:59:08.289 practice? It just seems sort of almost more symbolic 00:59:08.289 --> 00:59:11.449 than practical. So trying to figure out how that 00:59:11.449 --> 00:59:14.650 would look on the battlefield was a real challenge 00:59:14.650 --> 00:59:16.590 and something that I felt like I had some scope 00:59:16.590 --> 00:59:20.570 to kind of invent a little bit there. Yeah, I 00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:22.429 really, really enjoyed it because I've only been 00:59:22.429 --> 00:59:24.429 vaguely aware of them through my non -fiction 00:59:24.429 --> 00:59:28.380 reading. but I certainly it made more sense than 00:59:28.380 --> 00:59:32.380 have imagining kind of like Freya having loyalties 00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:34.380 to half the Valkyries or having kind of like 00:59:34.380 --> 00:59:37.260 having having to go to Odin to get her half and 00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:39.719 she then takes her half in her own right with 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:44.440 her own crew of undead talent seekers so to so 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:50.300 to speak um yeah and I think the kind of course 00:59:50.300 --> 00:59:52.659 the trying not to spoil it any too much but the 00:59:52.659 --> 00:59:57.760 way you've got you have Brunnhilde kind of like 00:59:57.760 --> 01:00:00.519 after her death in the canonical legend come 01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:04.539 back and actually confront Odin and challenge 01:00:04.539 --> 01:00:06.440 Odin even further so kind of like she challenged 01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:08.139 him in the beginning and she got banished and 01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:11.360 then she died because he she got tangled up in 01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:13.719 his own further machinations and then she still 01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:16.099 kind of like goes like no I'm I'm gonna get my 01:00:16.099 --> 01:00:18.099 own allies and she does. Amazing, they're all 01:00:18.099 --> 01:00:20.019 again females. She speaks to Hell, she speaks 01:00:20.019 --> 01:00:23.099 to Frasier. Frasier? Frasier even, because be 01:00:23.099 --> 01:00:27.780 English or even Norse. And she, together they 01:00:27.780 --> 01:00:31.900 do kind of almost set up a kind of a trap to 01:00:31.900 --> 01:00:34.920 get Odin to appear and actually kind of like 01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:36.820 say oh look we know what you're doing, we know 01:00:36.820 --> 01:00:38.219 you've done this, we know you've done that and 01:00:38.219 --> 01:00:41.179 like can you just stop now? Because obviously 01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:44.239 his... manipulation of characters in the book 01:00:44.239 --> 01:00:46.719 and within the history kind of not just the mythological 01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:49.400 characters but the historical ones to go to even 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:52.340 bigger wars and more wars which I think you've 01:00:52.340 --> 01:00:53.840 again done really brilliantly to reflect how 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.179 that impacts on the Valkyries as almost as a 01:00:56.179 --> 01:00:58.159 workforce and that they then become overworked 01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:00.159 and they kind of like go blood frenzy and crazy 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:01.900 and then they don't care anymore about who is 01:01:01.900 --> 01:01:04.539 dead or alive they just could have have fun because 01:01:04.539 --> 01:01:07.659 it's chaos and that's all I can do to to survive 01:01:07.659 --> 01:01:12.090 it really. It did strange it made my mind have 01:01:12.090 --> 01:01:16.210 a strange parallel to um in in British history 01:01:16.210 --> 01:01:18.650 when women started fighting in factories for 01:01:18.650 --> 01:01:20.510 better rights and better pay compared to men 01:01:20.510 --> 01:01:22.170 when they're all the same factories and how they 01:01:22.170 --> 01:01:23.789 ended up having to stand their ground say look 01:01:23.789 --> 01:01:25.829 we do exactly the same job so you need to pay 01:01:25.829 --> 01:01:28.550 us all more and it made me think back to that 01:01:28.550 --> 01:01:30.489 and how it is literally a group of women the 01:01:30.489 --> 01:01:33.250 Valkyries fray a hell in their own way and of 01:01:33.250 --> 01:01:36.010 course Gudrun kind of like so indubitously finds 01:01:36.010 --> 01:01:38.309 the same moment and the same scene and later 01:01:38.309 --> 01:01:41.269 on and they all kind of like do get over it and 01:01:41.269 --> 01:01:43.449 almost kind of like miss well Goodwin in particular 01:01:43.449 --> 01:01:45.809 gives him that bit of information that blows 01:01:45.809 --> 01:01:49.349 him off and he kind of like settles things and 01:01:49.349 --> 01:01:52.380 I did love I love everything, as you can tell 01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:54.820 by the book. I probably said the word love more 01:01:54.820 --> 01:01:58.179 than anything else. How Odin tries to kind of 01:01:58.179 --> 01:02:00.659 like regain control of the Valkyries by saying, 01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:03.260 oh, Brunhilde, oh, I'm so sorry. Just stop causing 01:02:03.260 --> 01:02:05.079 trouble and come back and join the forces. You 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:06.840 can be immortal again. You can have your flying 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.159 horse and whatnot. And Brunhilde quite rightly 01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:13.579 says no. You've kind of like you've ruined my 01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:15.599 afterlife and then afterlife before that. And 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:18.320 you've just you're making too much mess because 01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:21.619 and I think that rereading again for this analysis 01:02:21.619 --> 01:02:24.079 that I'm doing and when Loki wants to kind of 01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:25.679 like do you realise how many millions of people 01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:27.679 will be drowning in their own blood before this 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:29.659 is over and I thought that was a really good 01:02:29.659 --> 01:02:32.650 ominous kind of like undertone for what Oatkin's 01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:34.570 effectively doing, he's just ramping up the wars, 01:02:34.809 --> 01:02:37.510 ramping up the conflict, all because he's driven 01:02:37.510 --> 01:02:40.210 by that insane need to get warriors for Ragnarok, 01:02:40.269 --> 01:02:42.150 so that Ragnarok doesn't happen, so he doesn't 01:02:42.150 --> 01:02:44.309 die, and of course getting more knowledge to 01:02:44.309 --> 01:02:48.409 help in that whole inevitable fiasco, which I 01:02:48.409 --> 01:02:51.030 absolutely love, and the scene of it is brilliant, 01:02:51.210 --> 01:02:53.610 it reflects some of the kind of tales of archiaries 01:02:53.610 --> 01:02:56.849 and how they have forms or cloaks of sorts that 01:02:56.849 --> 01:02:59.619 they can take off and just... I'm trying not 01:02:59.619 --> 01:03:01.280 to spoil the ending, don't read it, it's just 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:05.239 so good. It's like the cherry on the cake by 01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:07.360 the time you reach the ending, I find, for me. 01:03:07.739 --> 01:03:14.059 And I just love it all, I really do. It's the 01:03:14.059 --> 01:03:17.769 kind of book that I dream of. Back when I was 01:03:17.769 --> 01:03:20.030 a young wannabe writer when I did creative writing 01:03:20.030 --> 01:03:22.710 university, it kind of died off afterwards because 01:03:22.710 --> 01:03:24.929 procrastination in life and the lack of deadlines 01:03:24.929 --> 01:03:28.050 and too many books to read. I just had too many 01:03:28.050 --> 01:03:30.949 distractions and no discipline. But I try to 01:03:30.949 --> 01:03:33.010 write about Valkyries myself because I do find 01:03:33.010 --> 01:03:36.650 that there's so much unknown lore about Valkyries 01:03:36.650 --> 01:03:38.489 and their role and how they become one. Like 01:03:38.489 --> 01:03:42.010 we have 13 names in Poetic Header and they're 01:03:42.010 --> 01:03:45.420 all connected to battle type tones or words or 01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:49.820 verbs like post fetter and battle clam and of 01:03:49.820 --> 01:03:51.980 course hilda meaning battle that kind of thing 01:03:51.980 --> 01:03:56.000 and i think it's just such a rich gap for authors 01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:57.760 to fill their imagination because of course we've 01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:01.480 got no one telling us we're wrongs exactly which 01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:03.460 is which is the rich thing and of course because 01:04:03.460 --> 01:04:06.260 of that it allows it to be retold and adapted 01:04:06.260 --> 01:04:08.760 in so many different ways it's why it's why i 01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:10.969 found so many different books I have got more 01:04:10.969 --> 01:04:12.909 than just once I've got e -books as well which 01:04:12.909 --> 01:04:16.750 we've all carried and and it's why I've found 01:04:16.750 --> 01:04:19.690 them so fascinating so I'd love to know more 01:04:19.690 --> 01:04:22.769 about how you kind of like find Valkyries in 01:04:22.769 --> 01:04:25.309 your own fascination any retellings any other 01:04:25.309 --> 01:04:27.730 experience encounters and why you think I mean 01:04:27.730 --> 01:04:30.110 even Marvel's brought along Valkyrie as a woman 01:04:30.110 --> 01:04:34.449 and the Maidred King so so there we go yeah yeah 01:04:34.449 --> 01:04:36.010 I know that's wonderful it's so wonderful to 01:04:36.010 --> 01:04:39.659 hear and I feel exactly the same way and you 01:04:39.659 --> 01:04:42.280 know I think one of the things that I find really 01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:46.039 fascinating about it is like you that these little 01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:49.199 bits that we have in the Eddas and you know the 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.519 names of the Valkyries and the idea that there 01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:54.900 are probably these stories you know behind them 01:04:54.900 --> 01:04:58.079 that maybe we've lost or that somebody might 01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:02.019 have known at one time and so we don't have a 01:05:02.019 --> 01:05:05.079 lot but what we do have is so fascinating and 01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:09.920 the poem where Brunhilde I think she has a different 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:12.059 name, but she's sort of associated with Brunhilde 01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:15.559 where she does, you know, teach Sigurd the rune 01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:18.219 lore, which, as you say, I drew on in my book. 01:05:18.739 --> 01:05:20.920 You know, it's so wonderful that there's this 01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.880 female figure who is a warrior, and she's also 01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:27.199 the teacher. She teaches the hero, you know, 01:05:27.340 --> 01:05:29.599 how to make sure he doesn't get poisoned by his 01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:32.760 ale and all the rest of it. So yes, just like 01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:34.860 you're saying, I think that... these figures 01:05:34.860 --> 01:05:37.500 are really fascinating and there's so much behind 01:05:37.500 --> 01:05:42.579 them that is yet to be explored. One of the things 01:05:42.579 --> 01:05:47.519 that was in my mind when I was writing this big 01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:53.059 battle at the end and the context of the historical 01:05:53.059 --> 01:05:59.989 war that it set in, as far as I know the sort 01:05:59.989 --> 01:06:02.909 of final battles with Attila were some of the 01:06:02.909 --> 01:06:05.429 bloodiest of all time if you look at them sort 01:06:05.429 --> 01:06:07.889 of from a relativistic perspective of how many 01:06:07.889 --> 01:06:09.389 people died on the battlefield and that kind 01:06:09.389 --> 01:06:14.969 of thing and they were quite horrific and that 01:06:14.969 --> 01:06:18.690 concept of war you know we have these stories 01:06:18.690 --> 01:06:23.340 that are told from uh from a culture that uh 01:06:23.340 --> 01:06:26.219 very much did find glory in in war and battle 01:06:26.219 --> 01:06:29.699 um but also you know if we're looking at it today 01:06:29.699 --> 01:06:32.199 and probably at the time as well there's there's 01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:34.059 the other side of that right if you have these 01:06:34.059 --> 01:06:36.719 these figures who are there to choose the slain 01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:39.619 on the battlefield um you know there's a lot 01:06:39.619 --> 01:06:42.659 of horror in that and there's a lot of uh questions 01:06:42.659 --> 01:06:44.880 that we could that that raises for us today in 01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.199 a in a time when is we're also you know witnessing 01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:52.619 absolutely horrific wars and and death and uh 01:06:52.619 --> 01:06:55.519 you know so I think that in that side of it of 01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:58.380 uh as I sort of bring all that together I think 01:06:58.380 --> 01:07:00.360 that that's what fascinates me about the Valkyries 01:07:00.360 --> 01:07:04.420 is that there's um uh the multiple facets of 01:07:04.420 --> 01:07:06.880 them because not only are they there to choose 01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:09.820 glory on the battlefields um but they are also 01:07:09.820 --> 01:07:13.119 teachers and healers and the keepers of of Rune 01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:17.159 Lore and um and they have these wonderful personalities 01:07:17.159 --> 01:07:19.980 and stories and all the rest of it so I think 01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:22.719 that there are many many different ways to explore 01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:27.940 that for sure. It's made me think again how much 01:07:27.940 --> 01:07:30.800 they almost reflect a slight weakness in Odin 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:32.659 and his power because of course being a god you 01:07:32.659 --> 01:07:34.360 would think well okay you can go choose whoever 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:35.960 you want to die and just get them yourself but 01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:38.860 no he has he needs valkyries very much like the 01:07:38.860 --> 01:07:42.860 christian god has angels I suppose. Another probably 01:07:42.860 --> 01:07:44.460 religions and pantheons have their own kind of 01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:46.300 like soul collectors and soul guides of course 01:07:46.300 --> 01:07:48.380 like in Greece there's the boatman over there 01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:51.019 over sticks I believe there's all these kind 01:07:51.019 --> 01:07:53.559 of like these entities that can go in between 01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:57.519 and I've always like yourself thought of valkyries 01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:00.659 they must have been human before because they 01:08:00.659 --> 01:08:04.320 they have that connection to us on the mortal 01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:07.460 realm and most of the valkyrie books I've read 01:08:07.460 --> 01:08:11.630 they certainly if not directly come from a human 01:08:11.630 --> 01:08:13.730 background, but they definitely heavily involve 01:08:13.730 --> 01:08:16.649 themselves in human culture and society and events 01:08:16.649 --> 01:08:19.510 and drama and plot thickens and all that kind 01:08:19.510 --> 01:08:22.149 of jazz, a lot more than like the North Cod's 01:08:22.149 --> 01:08:27.600 do. I remember when I think it was in Oh, it 01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.100 was a podcast I did with the Orbit Viking Day 01:08:30.100 --> 01:08:32.560 podcast. I had Professor Caroline Larrington, 01:08:33.020 --> 01:08:34.619 and author Joanne Harris and Francesca Simon. 01:08:34.739 --> 01:08:36.500 And we're talking about why the Norse gods have 01:08:36.500 --> 01:08:40.039 such a connection with one society today. And 01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:42.279 the point I said to them is that they're effectively 01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:44.880 human. They just happen to have apples that make 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:48.340 them live a lot longer, which is incredibly cool. 01:08:48.439 --> 01:08:49.960 And because doctors are always telling tweeters 01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:52.479 like an apple a day keeps. illness away and all 01:08:52.479 --> 01:08:54.619 that all that kind of thing because they they 01:08:54.619 --> 01:08:56.920 display all the flaws of humanity they're not 01:08:56.920 --> 01:08:59.300 innately good but they're not innately bad they've 01:08:59.300 --> 01:09:03.140 all got problems like Odin isn't um the quite 01:09:03.140 --> 01:09:06.340 passive Odin of um Marvel Cinematic Universe 01:09:06.340 --> 01:09:08.699 although I will say when hell came along it seemed 01:09:08.699 --> 01:09:11.239 he did have quite a war frenzy reign but then 01:09:11.239 --> 01:09:13.979 of course he downturned it all and went very 01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:18.199 passive um whereas Odin isn't that kind of god 01:09:18.199 --> 01:09:21.689 I think most certainly from the historical fiction 01:09:21.689 --> 01:09:23.729 i've read most of the warriors that kind of like 01:09:23.729 --> 01:09:25.229 beseech him when they're going to battle the 01:09:25.229 --> 01:09:27.390 berserkers because they do want to get that bloodless 01:09:27.390 --> 01:09:30.449 that crazed that kind of like no fear at all 01:09:30.449 --> 01:09:32.090 and just kind of like daring and boldly going 01:09:32.090 --> 01:09:34.850 and doing things and getting bloody and crazy 01:09:34.850 --> 01:09:36.529 and just slaughtering million people whereas 01:09:36.529 --> 01:09:38.689 most of the sensible warriors kind of like worship 01:09:38.689 --> 01:09:40.789 Thor because Thor was more the god of the people 01:09:40.789 --> 01:09:43.930 than Odin was Odin of course was reflected more 01:09:43.930 --> 01:09:47.090 in the hierarchical society of the kings and 01:09:47.090 --> 01:09:49.289 the princes and the Maybe not the queens and 01:09:49.289 --> 01:09:53.409 that kind of thing. But I think you've also reflected 01:09:53.409 --> 01:09:55.850 that quite well with the Valkyries as well, especially 01:09:55.850 --> 01:09:59.989 when you describe how Valhalla is nice, but it's 01:09:59.989 --> 01:10:02.390 unendingly nice. And you do make the brilliant 01:10:02.390 --> 01:10:04.729 point of how there's no change. And Brynhildr 01:10:04.729 --> 01:10:07.069 says there's no consequences, there's no risk. 01:10:07.970 --> 01:10:09.630 We all die, but then we all come back up again. 01:10:09.750 --> 01:10:11.289 We kill the boar and it comes back again. We 01:10:11.289 --> 01:10:13.090 kill the boar and it comes back again. It's just 01:10:13.090 --> 01:10:15.630 like we can kill a boar 101 different ways and 01:10:15.630 --> 01:10:18.279 we'll still... have 101 different days beyond 01:10:18.279 --> 01:10:22.420 that kind of thing. I think that was a real good 01:10:22.420 --> 01:10:27.479 way of doing it. Again, so you mentioned Valkyries 01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:31.119 kind of like almost becoming bored of their own 01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:35.300 immortality, their own job, and of course Brunnhilde 01:10:35.300 --> 01:10:37.640 and Sigurd are the kind of like the infamous, 01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:41.739 not unrequited love, but kind of like tragic 01:10:41.739 --> 01:10:43.800 love, very much like love Romeo and Juliet, kind 01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:46.479 of like the dangers of a man falling in love 01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:48.180 with an immortal, well not quite immortal, but 01:10:48.180 --> 01:10:50.039 kind of like a woman out of his league, so to 01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:52.640 speak, and that whole mishmash with the disguise, 01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:55.880 you mention, through Brynhold of course, but 01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:59.960 I know it's you, kind of like she gives reference 01:10:59.960 --> 01:11:03.670 to other Valkyries deciding to also... so actually 01:11:03.670 --> 01:11:05.729 no i'm gonna i'm gonna play dangerously i'm gonna 01:11:05.729 --> 01:11:07.489 fall in love with that guy because he's quite 01:11:07.489 --> 01:11:09.010 nice and actually no you're not gonna kill him 01:11:09.010 --> 01:11:11.310 Brunhill just put your sword away i'll just take 01:11:11.310 --> 01:11:16.170 him over here i love that little scene how she 01:11:16.170 --> 01:11:18.069 just like led him to the woods and then his hands 01:11:18.069 --> 01:11:19.750 and they saw her and then his hands are all over 01:11:19.750 --> 01:11:21.930 and i'm like yeah yeah you probably would if 01:11:21.930 --> 01:11:23.449 you'd just been pulled off a battlefield and 01:11:23.449 --> 01:11:25.310 realised that a beautiful woman had saved your 01:11:25.310 --> 01:11:29.829 life and of course he of course has an ill fate 01:11:29.829 --> 01:11:32.310 he he does die in the end he gets murdered he 01:11:32.310 --> 01:11:34.720 doesn't get to go to Valhalla so that Valkyrie 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:37.359 doesn't get to see him so she chooses to go and 01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:39.399 be with his ghost near his barrow which I thought 01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.479 was a really fascinating touch because then that's 01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:46.520 almost two spiritual beings from different planes 01:11:46.520 --> 01:11:48.920 and realms kind of like choosing to try and be 01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:51.899 together and defy the laws that usually separate 01:11:51.899 --> 01:11:56.819 them apart. So yeah I think you explore kind 01:11:56.819 --> 01:11:59.380 of like the relationships as both romantic and 01:11:59.380 --> 01:12:01.979 sexual through a whole, a lot of these characters 01:12:01.979 --> 01:12:04.479 really kind of like openly well and nothing seems 01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:06.960 shocking at all. Why are they not on the course? 01:12:07.340 --> 01:12:09.640 Because we're much more aware of how diverse 01:12:09.640 --> 01:12:14.039 love is in the 22nd century and we do hope that 01:12:14.039 --> 01:12:16.939 they were at least aware of certain loves like 01:12:16.939 --> 01:12:21.159 that back in the Viking age, so to speak. Yeah, 01:12:21.380 --> 01:12:25.350 yeah, and it is a really... complex set of stories, 01:12:25.430 --> 01:12:27.930 you know, and there's there's so much in it that, 01:12:27.930 --> 01:12:33.529 you know, and as you say, like Odin, the old 01:12:33.529 --> 01:12:36.250 stories about Odin are quite complex, and he's 01:12:36.250 --> 01:12:40.329 such an interesting figure and not at all, you 01:12:40.329 --> 01:12:43.949 know, it always reminds me of the line from the 01:12:43.949 --> 01:12:45.970 line in The Witch in the Wardrobe where Aslan 01:12:45.970 --> 01:12:49.710 is not a tame god, you know, and Odin is very 01:12:49.710 --> 01:12:52.550 much like that, that he's not predictable and 01:12:52.550 --> 01:12:55.470 he's not always kind certainly and he's absolutely 01:12:55.470 --> 01:12:59.770 not assumed to be benevolent which is a little 01:12:59.770 --> 01:13:04.449 bit you know uncomfortable I think for for many 01:13:04.449 --> 01:13:06.930 modern readers because the concept of a god who 01:13:06.930 --> 01:13:09.550 is actually kind of a jerk a lot of the time 01:13:09.550 --> 01:13:13.869 is you know not at all unusual for older mythologies 01:13:13.869 --> 01:13:16.869 but but it's not something that is sort of part 01:13:16.869 --> 01:13:21.739 of our daily life today. But I think one interpretation 01:13:21.739 --> 01:13:23.420 that I should mention, because it's definitely 01:13:23.420 --> 01:13:28.720 been hugely influential on me, I mentioned Neil 01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:31.199 Gaiman's Norse myths early on, but I think probably 01:13:31.199 --> 01:13:35.380 even more influential is American Gods and his 01:13:35.380 --> 01:13:38.029 version of Odin. in that story which I think 01:13:38.029 --> 01:13:41.729 is absolutely true to the sort of classic interpretation 01:13:41.729 --> 01:13:44.989 of Odin where he is not to be trusted and you 01:13:44.989 --> 01:13:48.729 know he has his own agenda always, always has 01:13:48.729 --> 01:13:52.329 an agenda and so that version of Odin I think 01:13:52.329 --> 01:13:56.909 was definitely really informative for me as well. 01:13:57.649 --> 01:13:59.729 Well I'm glad I found someone else who thinks 01:13:59.729 --> 01:14:03.090 and knows the intricate depths and aspects of 01:14:03.090 --> 01:14:11.869 Odin kind of thing. So, yeah, gosh. How long 01:14:11.869 --> 01:14:14.930 did it take you to write Brynhild, well Brynhild's 01:14:14.930 --> 01:14:18.069 story, The Valkyrie? It's hard to say because 01:14:18.069 --> 01:14:19.989 I have this habit of working on multiple things 01:14:19.989 --> 01:14:25.390 at once. So, yeah, so I have... I keep my emails 01:14:25.390 --> 01:14:27.289 you know luckily so I can always go back and 01:14:27.289 --> 01:14:29.489 see when I when I first wrote to my agent about 01:14:29.489 --> 01:14:33.170 something. So when the year that I wrote to my 01:14:33.170 --> 01:14:35.449 agent and I said I want to write this story about 01:14:35.449 --> 01:14:39.310 uh about Runehill the Valkyrie uh was 2018. So 01:14:39.310 --> 01:14:42.890 I was working on uh on it from from then and 01:14:42.890 --> 01:14:47.119 I think I was writing it From about 2018 to 2021, 01:14:47.380 --> 01:14:49.520 but I was working on other things at the same 01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:51.939 time So I was you know revising my novel the 01:14:51.939 --> 01:14:55.079 embroidered book and I had I was also writing 01:14:55.079 --> 01:14:57.619 my Assassin's Creed novels and so often it'll 01:14:57.619 --> 01:15:00.479 be a case where I'll take three months to be 01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:02.079 drafting something and then I'll have to switch 01:15:02.079 --> 01:15:04.180 to edits on something else and then go back to 01:15:04.180 --> 01:15:07.579 drafting and So I think overall it was probably 01:15:07.579 --> 01:15:11.060 about three or four years, but not exclusively 01:15:11.060 --> 01:15:15.619 working on that And how did you find the research 01:15:15.619 --> 01:15:17.979 level, because of course, as the Guardian brilliantly 01:15:17.979 --> 01:15:20.619 quotes on the front, it is a, sustains a fine 01:15:20.619 --> 01:15:23.520 balance between history and fantasy, which of 01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:25.560 course is beautifully put, because as you said 01:15:25.560 --> 01:15:28.340 earlier in this, it is, it has got touches of 01:15:28.340 --> 01:15:32.100 history in it. It did exist, this myth, legend 01:15:32.100 --> 01:15:35.079 isn't making it up. It just happens that he also 01:15:35.079 --> 01:15:38.359 seems to, it just has the mythological side thing, 01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:40.079 but as you've said, kind of like these myths 01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:42.770 get retold and... things. So how did you kind 01:15:42.770 --> 01:15:45.810 of balance the research with the mythology aspect 01:15:45.810 --> 01:15:47.890 and of course the historical aspects and how 01:15:47.890 --> 01:15:51.430 did you find marrying the two together? Yeah 01:15:51.430 --> 01:15:55.010 I love the research part of it you know and that's 01:15:55.010 --> 01:15:57.090 always probably one of the reasons why I keep 01:15:57.090 --> 01:16:01.350 going back to historical settings with my novels 01:16:01.350 --> 01:16:03.069 is that it's one of my favorite things to do 01:16:03.069 --> 01:16:04.850 is to research and to think about how to fit 01:16:04.850 --> 01:16:12.270 a story inside of history. So Yeah, the mixing, 01:16:12.689 --> 01:16:14.229 you know, trying to figure out how am I going 01:16:14.229 --> 01:16:17.149 to tell the story? And I did, I spent a long 01:16:17.149 --> 01:16:19.350 time at the beginning thinking, okay, I'm going 01:16:19.350 --> 01:16:24.810 to tell this in a kind of unnamed land, like 01:16:24.810 --> 01:16:27.210 it's going to be, you know, sort of just story 01:16:27.210 --> 01:16:28.609 land, you know, like these things are going to 01:16:28.609 --> 01:16:30.630 be happening. But then the more I thought about 01:16:30.630 --> 01:16:32.270 it, you know, the more I read this source material, 01:16:32.489 --> 01:16:37.779 which is, you know, at its root, it did come 01:16:37.779 --> 01:16:41.840 from this story of the people that were attacked 01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:45.000 on the borders of the empire. And it's almost 01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.779 invisible there now in the story, but it's there. 01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:50.840 And I didn't want to lose that. I felt like it 01:16:50.840 --> 01:16:53.920 was important to the story that there was a historical 01:16:53.920 --> 01:16:56.760 happening, just like the Iliad is the story of 01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:01.590 Troy. So, yeah, so I decided, okay, well, I am 01:17:01.590 --> 01:17:03.069 going to ground this in history, but then that 01:17:03.069 --> 01:17:05.529 gave me some challenges because I had to figure 01:17:05.529 --> 01:17:07.409 out how this would all fit together. And then 01:17:07.409 --> 01:17:11.130 I had to research a little bit about what this 01:17:11.130 --> 01:17:12.850 part of the Roman Empire would have looked like 01:17:12.850 --> 01:17:17.229 in the fifth century. And that part was quite 01:17:17.229 --> 01:17:22.010 challenging because it's not, you know, it's 01:17:22.010 --> 01:17:24.109 not to say that it hasn't been studied, it's 01:17:24.109 --> 01:17:25.689 been studied, but there's not a lot of popular 01:17:25.689 --> 01:17:29.680 history about the sort of Germanic you know, 01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:32.979 client kingdoms on the edges of the Roman Empire 01:17:32.979 --> 01:17:35.319 is not a subject of a lot of popular history 01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:37.739 that I've found. So it's very, you know, there's 01:17:37.739 --> 01:17:40.520 academic work, but it's not super accessible 01:17:40.520 --> 01:17:42.960 for someone just trying to get a sense of what 01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:45.960 was happening. But I love academic work, so I 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:48.640 sort of dove into journal articles and stories 01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:52.560 about the Burgundians, and any time I can find 01:17:52.560 --> 01:17:56.800 primary sources, that's always the best. So things 01:17:56.800 --> 01:18:00.260 like the Burgundian legal code still exists we 01:18:00.260 --> 01:18:03.119 have it and I found a translation of that and 01:18:03.119 --> 01:18:05.319 so understanding their legal code helped me to 01:18:05.319 --> 01:18:07.399 understand what some of their norms and values 01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:10.539 would have been and you know things like how 01:18:10.539 --> 01:18:11.939 would they have eaten dinner would they have 01:18:12.279 --> 01:18:14.439 would they have reclined to eat dinner because 01:18:14.439 --> 01:18:16.619 they were part of an empire or would they have 01:18:16.619 --> 01:18:19.020 had chairs you know and just like stuff like 01:18:19.020 --> 01:18:21.479 that it was just the amount of hours i spent 01:18:21.479 --> 01:18:23.859 thinking about whether or not they would recline 01:18:23.859 --> 01:18:25.720 or not to eat dinner and eventually i ended up 01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:27.220 deciding that they would do both that they would 01:18:27.220 --> 01:18:29.619 have like a roman dining room and then they would 01:18:29.619 --> 01:18:32.739 have their sort of germanic dining room depending 01:18:32.739 --> 01:18:35.699 on which guest they're entertaining so yeah so 01:18:35.699 --> 01:18:38.039 i really i i did get sort of deep into that stuff 01:18:38.039 --> 01:18:41.010 in terms of how can I make this feel grounded 01:18:41.010 --> 01:18:46.329 in real history? And yeah, I always kind of over 01:18:46.329 --> 01:18:50.510 research, I do a lot of research. Well it sounds 01:18:50.510 --> 01:18:52.489 like you enjoyed it and I guess that's good because 01:18:52.489 --> 01:18:54.510 it does definitely come through with like the 01:18:54.510 --> 01:18:57.109 details like between how Gunnar has to effectively 01:18:57.109 --> 01:19:00.909 fight for his kingship and it's his uncle I think 01:19:00.909 --> 01:19:02.869 who picks Sigurd to be his champion because he 01:19:02.869 --> 01:19:04.409 simply comes across him here like oh he killed 01:19:04.409 --> 01:19:06.659 a dragon can you just go defeat my nephew for 01:19:06.659 --> 01:19:09.279 me so I can rule. I like that bit of politics 01:19:09.279 --> 01:19:10.859 because that was something that I wasn't really 01:19:10.859 --> 01:19:12.520 aware of because certainly in the Saga of the 01:19:12.520 --> 01:19:15.979 Volsungs you don't get that kind of culture of 01:19:15.979 --> 01:19:18.279 the Brigandians coming through, but you do it 01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:20.140 really well in your book. And the other question 01:19:20.140 --> 01:19:22.859 I was going to ask was the Saga of the Volsungs 01:19:22.859 --> 01:19:25.439 certainly have that little title speech, their 01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:27.579 chapters and sections, and I do quite like the 01:19:27.579 --> 01:19:29.840 titles for your chapters and indeed of course 01:19:29.840 --> 01:19:31.600 your sections because you've got about four. 01:19:33.889 --> 01:19:36.250 Did you struggle with any naming particularly 01:19:36.250 --> 01:19:38.609 chapters or did they come out quite naturally 01:19:38.609 --> 01:19:42.670 when you've finally segmented them off? I think 01:19:42.670 --> 01:19:45.170 they came pretty naturally for this one. One 01:19:45.170 --> 01:19:48.729 of the things I wanted to do with the chapter 01:19:48.729 --> 01:19:52.369 headings in this one was just suddenly signal 01:19:52.369 --> 01:19:56.920 to the reader you know, whose story we were looking 01:19:56.920 --> 01:20:00.520 at because I do have two first -person narrators 01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:02.739 and I know that can be confusing for readers 01:20:02.739 --> 01:20:05.880 when you have I and the I are two different people. 01:20:07.159 --> 01:20:10.020 And so each of the chapter titles actually, you 01:20:10.020 --> 01:20:12.220 know, includes the name of the woman who's speaking, 01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:14.159 although there are a couple of times when it's 01:20:14.159 --> 01:20:15.939 like Gudrun talks to Brunhilde or something. 01:20:16.989 --> 01:20:19.369 You have to really parse it to figure out, but 01:20:19.369 --> 01:20:21.670 for the most part, it's like when Brunhilde speaks 01:20:21.670 --> 01:20:23.310 to the birds or whatever, then you know, okay, 01:20:23.470 --> 01:20:26.029 well, this is a Brunhilde chapter. So it was 01:20:26.029 --> 01:20:30.569 just sort of a practical thing to clue in the 01:20:30.569 --> 01:20:32.329 reader a little bit, although not everyone reads 01:20:32.329 --> 01:20:35.869 chapter titles or clues in that way. And the 01:20:35.869 --> 01:20:38.789 sections too, just sort of the stories seem to 01:20:38.789 --> 01:20:44.550 fall into particular... particular pieces that 01:20:44.550 --> 01:20:47.789 way and it did give me a chance to kind of draw 01:20:47.789 --> 01:20:51.130 a little bit on the, just pull out some of the 01:20:51.130 --> 01:20:54.909 imagery and you know just bring the reader into 01:20:54.909 --> 01:20:57.510 what I really wanted them to focus on in terms 01:20:57.510 --> 01:21:01.170 of imagery and tone for those sections. Well, 01:21:01.329 --> 01:21:03.069 I really liked it, and of course it made me think 01:21:03.069 --> 01:21:04.710 to how the Saga of the Volsung's was written, 01:21:04.850 --> 01:21:06.390 but oh, she's copying it, but then of course, 01:21:07.010 --> 01:21:09.930 yes, I unconsciously wasn't aware that they was 01:21:09.930 --> 01:21:11.609 actually also telling me which character was 01:21:11.609 --> 01:21:14.210 speaking, although I am now because I'm rereading 01:21:14.210 --> 01:21:18.909 it and going to all the Brynhildr ones. Goodrun's 01:21:18.909 --> 01:21:21.850 kind of part is also kind of like significantly 01:21:21.850 --> 01:21:24.050 equal contribution because as well as expanding 01:21:24.050 --> 01:21:26.470 Brynhildr's ending beyond the Piosene, you've 01:21:26.470 --> 01:21:29.260 also expanded on Gudrun's ending because I'm 01:21:29.260 --> 01:21:32.600 not quite sure I can't remember what happens 01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:35.220 to her as such after the burning of the power 01:21:35.220 --> 01:21:37.520 inside of the Volsungs but I quite like where 01:21:37.520 --> 01:21:41.079 you kind of gave her her own kind of female independence 01:21:41.079 --> 01:21:45.560 and agency in different ways. Yeah yeah and that 01:21:45.560 --> 01:21:49.220 that was a tricky thing to decide because she 01:21:49.220 --> 01:21:53.140 so that's one place where the Nibelungen lead 01:21:53.140 --> 01:21:56.939 actually departs quite a bit from the Norse versions 01:21:56.939 --> 01:21:59.640 or vice versa. They're quite different in terms 01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:03.399 of what Gudrun's, the ending of her story is. 01:22:03.920 --> 01:22:06.899 So, you know, there are some versions of her 01:22:06.899 --> 01:22:12.239 story in which she takes revenge on her own brother 01:22:12.239 --> 01:22:17.300 and the men of what I call Vermesia or the city 01:22:17.300 --> 01:22:21.720 of Worms in what is now Germany. So she actually 01:22:22.159 --> 01:22:25.760 turns on her family and she goes off and marries 01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:29.779 Attila and uses that as a way to take revenge. 01:22:29.939 --> 01:22:31.539 And then there's other versions of the story 01:22:31.539 --> 01:22:35.880 where she revenges herself on Attila and burns 01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:39.859 down Attila's camp and kills him, which is probably 01:22:39.859 --> 01:22:44.699 inspired by the historical event, which is Attila, 01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:49.939 his death possibly happened at one of his wedding 01:22:49.939 --> 01:22:53.060 feasts and he married this new wife. and she 01:22:53.060 --> 01:22:55.899 may or may not have poisoned him. Her name was 01:22:55.899 --> 01:22:59.680 Ildiko. And so that may have been the inspiration 01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:02.699 for the sort of goodering, cream -hilled character 01:23:02.699 --> 01:23:06.079 taking revenge on him. And I have a little reference 01:23:06.079 --> 01:23:07.760 to that in the book as well. So I won't talk 01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:10.680 about which version I have in my story, but there 01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:13.439 are these long, and there are some of the versions 01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:21.170 also include like, you know, other... other storylines 01:23:21.170 --> 01:23:23.590 long after this of what happens with Brynhildr 01:23:23.590 --> 01:23:26.930 and Gudrun and, you know, there's a Svanhild, 01:23:27.069 --> 01:23:29.829 who is another girl who comes into it later on. 01:23:30.449 --> 01:23:33.949 And so that was, I felt very much like there 01:23:33.949 --> 01:23:35.869 were several different possibilities I could 01:23:35.869 --> 01:23:40.250 do when it came to the ending. And, you know, 01:23:40.430 --> 01:23:43.170 yeah, the sort of big moment on the pyre and 01:23:43.170 --> 01:23:47.699 the choice of, you know, who pays for the death 01:23:47.699 --> 01:23:50.760 of the hero in some sense feels like a big climax, 01:23:50.800 --> 01:23:53.619 but there are other things that then happen and 01:23:53.619 --> 01:23:57.619 the way that that story plays out. So yeah, I 01:23:57.619 --> 01:23:59.579 feel very much like it could be a bit of a choose 01:23:59.579 --> 01:24:03.300 your own adventure at the end, you know, but 01:24:03.300 --> 01:24:05.239 I wanted them to have a particular kind of ending, 01:24:05.859 --> 01:24:09.000 which, you know, I wanted this to be in the end 01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:10.720 about these two women. So that's that's sort 01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:12.739 of what drew me back to deciding how I was going 01:24:12.739 --> 01:24:17.340 to end this novel. Well, I really salute it and 01:24:17.340 --> 01:24:19.539 I salute you for your research, your writing, 01:24:19.819 --> 01:24:21.920 your talent and your clear passion for this. 01:24:21.960 --> 01:24:24.699 It comes through and of course they do have a 01:24:24.699 --> 01:24:26.619 happy ending of sorts at the end but it just, 01:24:27.920 --> 01:24:30.000 it's of course Grunheim and Brunhilde too, we've 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:32.220 been kind of like in this male dominated world, 01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:35.039 both divine with Odin and of course politically 01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:37.560 with Gunnar and the rivals of power and of course 01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:41.220 the Hun and war and it, they really do stretch 01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:43.180 and push themselves to try and stand on their 01:24:43.180 --> 01:24:46.039 own two feet and find their own purpose of their 01:24:46.039 --> 01:24:48.399 own path regardless of what everyone else says 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:50.760 and I think that really of course speaks to so 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:53.439 many women around the world trying to break through 01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:56.760 the patriarchal circle that dominates still a 01:24:56.760 --> 01:24:59.060 lot of society and from business to parenting. 01:24:59.939 --> 01:25:04.539 I'm not going to go on that one. So yes but I 01:25:04.539 --> 01:25:06.760 really really enjoyed it and I do highly recommend 01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:10.560 that anyone in slight interest in North Pathology 01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:13.079 or just wanting a really good feminist empowering 01:25:13.079 --> 01:25:16.479 story with a really lovely twist should definitely 01:25:16.479 --> 01:25:22.680 go. Bye. It's so beautiful. It's wonderful. It's 01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:25.939 so lovely to talk to you because when you're 01:25:25.939 --> 01:25:28.819 in the middle of writing a book like this, you 01:25:28.819 --> 01:25:32.020 get into the middle sections. it just feels you 01:25:32.020 --> 01:25:33.960 get despair and you think why did I ever start 01:25:33.960 --> 01:25:35.680 this you know I don't have I can't finish it 01:25:35.680 --> 01:25:37.800 I'm just you know this was a mistake from start 01:25:37.800 --> 01:25:40.399 to finish uh and there's always that moment where 01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:44.220 you just feel like total despair um but I think 01:25:44.220 --> 01:25:46.960 what what drives you forward as a writer is knowing 01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:48.880 that somewhere out there is a reader who is going 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:51.619 to get it and is going to um connect with it 01:25:51.619 --> 01:25:53.619 in some way and so talking to you and knowing 01:25:53.619 --> 01:25:55.979 well you are that you are that ideal reader because 01:25:55.979 --> 01:25:57.819 you know you have the background and you get 01:25:57.819 --> 01:26:01.289 it on so many levels um so uh yeah it's a real 01:26:01.289 --> 01:26:04.449 it's a real joy to to talk to you oh well thank 01:26:04.449 --> 01:26:06.590 you i mean i don't have the courage to learn 01:26:06.590 --> 01:26:08.649 the time nor the energy and definitely not the 01:26:08.649 --> 01:26:11.109 imagination to write anything as beautiful as 01:26:11.109 --> 01:26:13.010 good but i'm just grateful that there are women 01:26:13.010 --> 01:26:15.750 like you that do and it's funny how a lot of 01:26:15.750 --> 01:26:18.029 the books actually that I read about Valkyries 01:26:18.029 --> 01:26:20.489 are written by women. A lot of the Norse fantasy 01:26:20.489 --> 01:26:22.630 I read generally is written by women apart from 01:26:22.630 --> 01:26:26.189 Neil Gaiman and Snorri Kristiansen. I think there's 01:26:26.189 --> 01:26:28.409 really only a couple of men actually on my shelf. 01:26:28.590 --> 01:26:30.569 It's nearly all women and predominantly white 01:26:30.569 --> 01:26:33.289 Western women, of course, which is another angle. 01:26:33.369 --> 01:26:36.270 I've always been curious about how the Norse, 01:26:36.289 --> 01:26:38.770 both in mythological and definitely the historical 01:26:38.770 --> 01:26:40.569 sense, is very much definitely kind of like a 01:26:40.569 --> 01:26:43.539 Western white hemisphere. There's not much interest 01:26:43.539 --> 01:26:46.220 and connection with kind of the wider global 01:26:46.220 --> 01:26:49.279 citizenship from the southern or far east kind 01:26:49.279 --> 01:26:53.319 of thing. Although getting into Norse mythology 01:26:53.319 --> 01:26:55.439 and anime is a definite, definite topic for a 01:26:55.439 --> 01:26:58.859 different episode entirely. But yes, so thank 01:26:58.859 --> 01:27:02.100 you so much. I am all out of questions. because 01:27:02.100 --> 01:27:03.479 otherwise I'm just going to keep complimenting 01:27:03.479 --> 01:27:05.319 you and all this and that and I'll give away 01:27:05.319 --> 01:27:08.659 too many spoilers, too many spoilers. But I really 01:27:08.659 --> 01:27:10.739 appreciate your time joining my humble little 01:27:10.739 --> 01:27:12.760 YouTube channel in my wonderful little series 01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:14.979 called Valhalla Conversations. And it really 01:27:14.979 --> 01:27:17.319 is, it's a conversation in Valhalla for me to 01:27:17.319 --> 01:27:20.000 be able to speak to wonderful creatives with 01:27:20.000 --> 01:27:22.880 equal passion and interest and, as I say, like 01:27:22.880 --> 01:27:26.060 -mindedness that we both share. So thank you 01:27:26.060 --> 01:27:28.810 very much, Kate. Well, thank you. And I knew 01:27:28.810 --> 01:27:31.170 that when you asked me earlier on that something 01:27:31.170 --> 01:27:32.750 would would trigger in my mind that I would want 01:27:32.750 --> 01:27:35.390 to recommend a retelling and it did finally just 01:27:35.390 --> 01:27:38.590 before the end. So I definitely want to recommend 01:27:38.590 --> 01:27:41.970 my friend Chadwick Ginther's books, the Thunder 01:27:41.970 --> 01:27:45.829 Road trilogy, which is Norse mythology that is 01:27:45.829 --> 01:27:48.590 reinterpreted and reimagined in modern Manitoba, 01:27:48.689 --> 01:27:52.789 which is where I grew up and has a strong Icelandic 01:27:52.789 --> 01:27:56.489 community. So definitely check out Chadwick Ginther's 01:27:56.489 --> 01:27:59.539 books. Oh, brilliant. Well, do pay me along these 01:27:59.539 --> 01:28:01.460 details and I'll make sure they will be in the 01:28:01.460 --> 01:28:03.659 notes below this video, dear viewers. So, of 01:28:03.659 --> 01:28:06.119 course, I promote and support all North, all 01:28:06.119 --> 01:28:08.340 North. Anything Viking usually gets my money 01:28:08.340 --> 01:28:11.760 and my name shouting about it somewhere. Yes. 01:28:12.220 --> 01:28:14.220 So, but thank you so much for joining me. It's 01:28:14.220 --> 01:28:16.500 been a real privilege and honor and a real pleasure 01:28:16.500 --> 01:28:19.100 to talk about all this with you. And of course, 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:20.739 I wish you best of luck with all your future 01:28:20.739 --> 01:28:23.640 writing projects. Thank you. Likewise.