and welcome to what is now episode five, I've
done this five times now, of the series that
I have now called Valhalla Conversations, where
I meet creatives of like -mindedness who likes
Vikings, Viking Age, and of course, North mythology,
because they're the two parts of the same coin,
which I absolutely adore. And I'm delighted to
welcome today on my fifth episode, Kate Hartfield,
author of this wonderful book. I do encourage
everyone to go buy it. I mean, just look at that
cover. Just look at that lovely cover. Of course,
ignore the Thor's hammer. It's all about this
person right here, this person. But we shall
dive in tomorrow about that. So Kate, would you
like to introduce yourself and your wonderful
works? Hello, thank you. I'm so excited to be
here. This is a wonderful, wonderful project.
And yeah, I'm just looking forward to the conversation.
So I am a writer who lives in Canada. I live
just outside of Ottawa. And I have, I used to
be a journalist. And I've written about five
novels that have been published. I say about
as if it's like not a discrete number. So a few
novels of my own, including The Valkyrie, The
Embroidered Book, which is a big novel about
Marie Antoinette and her sister. And I have a
medieval novel called The Shadalane. And I have
more novels coming out shortly. And I've also
written a couple of tie -in novels for Assassin's
Creed, the video game franchise. short fiction
and interactive fiction, so all kinds of storytelling
in different formats. Brilliant. Well, of course,
today is specifically about this one, which I
only discovered myself last summer due to a secret
project that I'm not announcing just yet, dear
viewers. It's still being finalized. Kate is
one of the privileged few that knows. But yes,
so I, if anyone follows me on Twitter, Instagram,
well, what used to be Twitter, Instagram threads,
they'll know that I love Norse mythology and
particularly Valkyries, hence why I'm surrounded
by all the different books and comics featuring
Valkyries that I have read, followed, some brilliant,
some... Okay, most of them are good. I do recommend
most of what I have on my bookshelf. But this
one, this one went straight to the top of my
number one list, Kate, when I finished it. I
read it in five days, which as a mum of a toddler,
very active toddler who's three going on 13th,
was an amazing feat because I haven't read that
quickly for some time since me becoming a mum.
So I guess we'll start off with the beginning
and like, how did you get the idea to write the
Valkyrie? Yeah, like many books, I think this
came from a few different streams all joining
together to make a river and, you know, a few
different places that were bouncing around in
my mind. So probably the actual moment when it
was born was a night when I was reading bedtime
stories to my kid. He was, I think, about nine
years old at the time. He's 14 now. He loves
mythology and folklore and history, and so we
kind of share an interest in that kind of thing.
And he had several books on his shelf about Norse
mythology. You know, some of them written more
for kids, some of them not. And it was probably
the Neil Gaiman Norse mythology book that we
were reading. And we came across the story that
that book does have a short version of the Brynhild
and Sigurd story in it. And You know, we were
reading that together and maybe another couple
of North Smiths that week. And I was doing a
short fiction contest for a writers group that
I'm a part of called Codex. And we have this
flash fiction contest every year. And the idea
is to write a very short story over a weekend
of 750 words over a weekend. And I was inspired
to write this very short story about Brunnhilde
from her perspective. Because when I read the
story, I thought, When I was reading the myth,
I had read it before, but it just really struck
me that there are things about Brunhilde's side
of the story that didn't ring true to me, that
it just didn't make sense. I thought, well, I'm
just going to write from her perspective. So
I wrote the 750 -word story. And my co -writers
who read it said, oh, well, this is great, but
it's not a 750 -word story. This is a novel.
So I had the beginning of the novel from there.
and that was really the spark of it but there
were some other things then that as I read the
research and I started to think about okay well
what story do I want to tell then it grew from
there because of course dear viewer and reader
listener whatever um this book is a dual narrative
it's told of course from Brunhilde The Fallen
Valkyrie, the only Valkyrie has a real showpiece
in legend and lore, but it's also told from the
point of view of Gudrun, the kind of unfortunate
sister to King Gunnar and the whole love quartet
that's more complicated than Romeo and Juliet
by far. So how did you decide to make it a two
-jeweled feminine narrative as well? Where I
came from with that was I, you know, I was immediately
drawn to the story of Brunhilde because she is,
you know, she's many different things and many
different versions of the story. So the two main
streams of sources, source material that we have
are. you know, the Norse mythology, the prose
Eddas, the prose and poetic Eddas, and the song
of the Volsings, and we'll probably get into
that. And over on the Germanic side, there are
several medieval poems, and the best, the biggest
one is the New Blinged Lead, which is this big
epic poem. Some of the names are different, but
most of the story is pretty much the same. And
with some important changes, which again, we
can get into. But so when I was reading all the
source material, Bernhild herself, you know,
sometimes she's a sorceress, sometimes she's
a witch, sometimes she's a queen over the water.
But in the Norse versions, she's a fallen Valkyrie.
And so I, you know, I thought she was a really
interesting figure. So that's where I began.
And so I didn't really begin with this idea of
the two women talking to each other. But as I
started reading to research the story, I was
really struck by their relationship, and they're
often portrayed as these bitter rivals that end
up bringing everything down, bringing on catastrophe
because of their jealousy of each other. But
when I was reading, actually I've got it right
here beside me, the Song of the Nibelings, which
is a translation by Margaret Armour, and this
is actually from the Tolkien's bookshelf edition.
I was really struck by... how there's these phrases
about like saying things like when um when these
two women saw each other in the hall they couldn't
take their eyes off each other and you know when
they saw each other they embraced warmly and
there was just all this this this sense of a
really passionate relationship there even before
they become enemies and rivals And so eventually
it just dawned on me that the easiest way to
tell a different version of the story that made
sense, and to me even made more sense in some
ways than what has come down to us, was to wonder
what would the story have looked like to them
if they were actually in love. So that's where
the dual narrative came from with them being,
and because, you know, who tells the story and
who listens to the story is so important in retellings.
it was important to me to have them be both the
tellers and also the audience in a sense that
this is a contained universe in which they're
telling each other the story. I must admit, when
I first started reading it, the way Brunhilde
starts referring to her past but also in the
present tense it's like okay well what's happening
it's like my beginning with my other beginning
i'm like okay which which i'll just carry on
eventually makes sense and of course by the end
it all does because you realize it's like one
of those films that starts you in the middle
and then it takes you back to the beginning and
then it works its way through and of course it
is really refreshing and of course highly relevant
to kind of like 21st 22nd century values today
about kind of like equality and independent women
and that kind of thing about kind of against
the hierarchy, so to speak, to have these strong
two female voices, because of course the legends
focus mainly on what the men get up to. So it's
Sigurd that goes and kills the dragon, it's Sigurd
who wakes Brunnhilde, it's Sigurd who woo's her
and goes after the treasure, and it's Regan who
I always found was a really weird, wormy type
character. He often reminds me of a character
from Harry Potter that I can't remember the name
of. I want to say Wormwood, but I could be wrong.
I know the one you mean, yeah. I remember him
specifically because it was in The Prisoner of
Azkaban and he betrays Harry Potter and his newly
found uncle and that whole shebang. It just really
came back when I reread The Saga of the Volsungs
after, of course, rereading yours. And that's
when it really made me notice and I'm still rereading
it as part of my secret project and take some
analysis. There, dear listeners, about... the
changes and adaptations you've introduced, so
you've not just told it from a different point
of view but you have restructured events, repositioned
characters in different ways. I guess the most
significant one for me is the way that you've
had Brunhilde not quite not be the stereotypical
stereotype that everyone knows of, like it's
the damsel in distress, it's the damsel in the
fire that you've got to go and kiss and wake
up. Very much alike to Sleeping Beauty. I know
in Wykner he made Odin put her to sleep and put
the ring to fire, but in your book she chose
to do that because it was she who wants to take
on Fafnir hearing it from the birds, which I
actually love, love the idea of her learning
language from the birds and of course learning
it from other Valkyries and Odin, which makes
sense because he spoke to ravens. actually connects
beautifully with mythology. But were there any
pieces and adaptations that you made that you
were a bit unsure of, or were you quite confident
in going forward and making those changes that
you made? I'm trying not to spoil it too much
for dear viewers. Yeah, it was always a little
bit, you know, I felt a strong sense of responsibility.
to the history of the narrative and to all of
the storytellers who had gone before me and to
the ongoing story, you know, that's this living
thing over time and will continue to live on
long past me in various forms. So I did feel
some responsibility to that, to treat it respectfully,
to do my best to make a story that felt true
and felt like it honoured the history of the
story. At the same time, you know, the sources
are all so contradictory and have different versions
going on. And so I really felt like there was
no single canon version that I could possibly
portray in a sense, you know, because there are
different, almost every scene or part of the
story is told in slightly different ways, especially
in the Norse versus the Germanic versions of
it. And even within particular cultural traditions
or language traditions, there are still contradictions
and changes in the story. So I had a strong sense
that storytellers have been kind of messing with
this for many years and have been introducing
things that made sense to them or spoke to their
moment in time or how they saw the important
themes that they wanted to bring out. So when
it came time to sort of reinterpret an event
in the story and look at it from a different
angle and maybe even change the facts that led
up to it, I felt like that was almost in a way
honoring that tradition because it has been changed
and played around with so much that it's not
set in stone or ossified. It's a living narrative
that changes all the time. So that part of it
when Brunnhilde is sleeping, she does put herself
to sleep. And I was really fascinated with the...
With the role of sleep in fairy tales as you
say Sleeping Beauty You know this this story
was probably a source for Sleeping Beauty because
it has this this idea of pricking the finger
on a thorn and falling asleep and being woken
by a man who comes along and and wakes her up
and As a mom as you will understand I I felt
very strongly that you know sleep is so powerful
and so you know the idea that it was a curse
for a woman seems very prevalent in stories and
from the woman's perspective I thought you know
what sleep is sleep is where we get our strength
yeah so I think you know I just it seemed to
me like if somebody wanted to have a spell that
would put them to sleep I thought well what about
looking at it from the other side and thinking
about it as a source of strength rather than
a curse and and so that's where that came from.
The other thing kind of like, I know I mentioned
it earlier, it was kind of like re -reading the
Saga of the Volsons that I didn't really notice
or realise because I had read it before many
years ago and it obviously, I think I walked
away just thinking, oh Odin, he's such a manipulator,
he makes all the bad things happen effectively,
we'll get on to him in another minute because
he's a very, another important character to underlying
all this and I think you've done that brilliantly,
but it was when Sigurd and Brynhild in the side
with the Volsungs have that long talk and she's
sharing her wisdom about the runes and this that
I thought you've done really well to adapt that
all those little verses about using runes and
ale and using runes of fire and healing and birchwood
and that kind of thing to make it very practical
and almost like very believable very physical
magic as well like not just like using the runes
to kind of like give her that sleep boost to
give almost like an adrenaline rush almost akin
to I don't know Captain America going into a
capsule I suppose, to give it a modern analogy.
But also because I've been rereading up to the
point where she is with Gunnar and Gudrun and
their family and of course Sigurd's there and
there's that bitterness simmering away and of
course Gudrun's mum asks her to help strengthen
the stones and the bridge and I thought oh that's
really interesting making about using Runes not
just in like a magical I will heal you of your
ailments kind of thing and I will bring fire
forth from out of nowhere But I'm actually gonna
make a bridge more stable. I thought that was
I was a really clever twist Yeah, good. Yeah.
Yeah, that was one of those those places where
I think all of the you know, sort of background
ideas of the story and then my own plot and trying
to Fit this into the historical narrative you
know, all kind of came together and it just made
sense to me that, you know, Bernhilde would be
involved in kind of strengthening the fortifications
of the city. And, you know, so one thing that
I have found that many people who are not familiar
with the source material don't know is that this
is a historical narrative and that it does refer
to the actual historical event of what we now
call Worms Germany, you know, the city on the
edge of the Rhine. It was then sort of the edge
of the Roman Empire at the time. And when Attila
and the Huns came over, it was one of the first
places that felt their wrath and ended up leading
to the exile and migration of the Burgundian
people into what is now Burgundy, France. So
all of that historical part of it, I think, is
not very well understood. And so I get a lot
of questions from people like, why did you put
this in a real historical setting? but most you
know most of this work material actually does
refer to this this historical event even if it's
somewhat obscured now behind different names
and different um you know the fantasy and all
the rest of it um so that part of it the city
on the Rhine with a bridge you know um it seemed
like it was really central to, you know, what
their concerns would be, you know, how to fortify
this city and how to be strong. And so, you know,
I brought in Burnhill's magic into that, I think,
as a way to kind of bring it all together into
a story that would seem to make sense to me.
Well, I really admire it, because I've read in
various North Fantasy books runes and runic magic
being used, and it has always been kind of done
as a high fantasy thing, kind of like I would
describe these wounds on the floor and the trap
will appear and that kind of thing, but yours
seems simple, but not like on a mundane level,
but simple on a very kind of like, okay, yeah,
I can see how that would work, kind of makes
sense, and of course... as well as Gudrun and
Brynhild, you've also got Oda Gudrun's mum who
is also a bit of a sorceress of sorts and I like,
because I didn't really, wasn't really aware
of her character much in the source text of the
Saga of the Volsung because I've yet to ring
the Nibelung Eid, if I can ever pronounce the
word. No, me neither, yeah. The one with the
Nibelungs. But I remember Colt's hair key role
was almost being the main not the enabler that
helped Gunnar get Brinhill because she was the
one that weaves the disguise out of air and magic
to enable Sigurd to go through the fire because
Gunnar wouldn't and Sigurd's horse wouldn't either
even with Gunnar on it which I thought was that
and of course the other thing that I know is
rereading and I'm kind of going all over the
place with my questions here so apologies I just
so many ideas and so many brilliant adaptations
was I do remember at least hearing an audio version
retelling of the Saga of the Volsungs from the
wonderful house of that Jorvik Viking thing podcast
they got some wonderful Jorvik team members to
narrate the whole thing and I remember hearing
how Sigurd was goaded by Regan to go go get a
really good horse and he goes there and an old
man wonderfully appears and says oh drive them
all into the river and see which one still swims
but of course in Jorban Odin Which of course
it is, dear viewers. The old man on the road
is always Odin. He's not Gandalf, it's Odin.
Although Gandalf was probably very much based
on Odin. Tolkien being who he was. Just says,
oh this horse belonged to a trait and he doesn't
want to work for the trait anymore so you can
have him and that's how Granny, the famous horse
of the name, becomes Sigurd's horse even though
he was Brunhilde's in your telling. So I kind
of like how you really explored, and that was
the first of many instances, they explored the
reason why Brunnhilde is in Midgard, the mortal
realm to begin with, is her disagreement, her
feud, her argument of sorts, for various reasons
with Odin, because in the Saga of the Volsing
she says, oh I kind of like favoured one king,
oh defended the other, he killed. mine even though
I wanted him to live and we just disagreed and
so I was punished and sent away and I really
like how you explored that a bit more especially
kind of like with Ben Hill's first initial chapter
and her reflection how she was so faithful and
beholden to him as a Valkyrie and she was grateful
for the training and the powers and ability and
she was almost hero worshiping him in her loyalty
to degree and then when she learned that just
by doing what she's doing she then gets told
off in a way for doing it and that's one thing
that's always made me drawn I think to the Valkyrie
characters in in that they're kind of like they're
free but they're not free they're not quite under
his control directly but he very much I tried
to describe it once as kind of like Odin's using
them as kind of like talent recruiters they go
off and recruit talent for the war for the war
kind of thing but he always has the last shot
although In this case, of course, Brynhill disagreed
because he taught her to judge them, she's judged
them, but then he says no. So it's a case of
kind of like almost knowing when, as certainly
as a character, there's a woman in any context
to step up and say, no, I believe I'm right kind
of thing. I'm not just going to bow to what you
say. And of course, when he... appears to her
within the first few pages and kind of says,
oh hi, how are you doing? And she's like, leave
me alone. I really love how you've explored that
relationship and it carries on mostly at the
beginning and then of course near the end where
she realises a lot of truths about Odin's manipulation,
not just of her, but of course behind Fafnir
because Fafnir was, in your retelling, kind of
like... the creation of sorts from Odin. Odin
enables Fafnir to go from a human to that kind
of dragon -esque form because of course there's
the legend of Ota and Regin and Fafnir and Ota's
hide being covered in gold and that's how the
cursed ring of the Nibelung gets involved which
I think is another thing going slightly off topic.
my brain is just all over there's so many wonderful
things about your book um that you don't really
put a lot of emphasis on the cursed ring i mean
fafner does mention that there's a curse of sorts
it'll be it'll bring doom it'll bring death but
he doesn't mention anything specifically and
yet those of us who know familiar at least very
familiar even with Wagner's kind of version that
like oh the ring that Brinhill picks is definitely
going to be that one ring Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, and that's all, you know, that was
all just in my mind as well when I was writing
and, you know, that, as you say, the sort of
overarching story with Odin, that is probably
the biggest change that I brought to the book,
I think, you know, and it's not really a change
in the sense that you're right, it's all drawing
on pieces of the story. But the idea that Odin
had this you know plan for the whole and I'll
try not to spoil as well but like the idea that
that this all sort of connects together a little
bit more um was me trying to make you know to
tell this as a modern story because you know
there are parts of the old epics and sagas that
um you know there's one set of characters goes
and does something and then something else happens
later on and there's not really any necessarily
any connection between them because I think the
older traditions there was not an expectation
that there would be a person could go and have
an adventure over here same character could go
have an adventure over here but to make it a
modern coherent novel there is that question
of okay well how are these things connected or
what's you know what's the overarching story
so I think I did push push on that a little bit.
I did draw inspiration from real stories about
what was happening with Odin and Brighill, but
I sort of put it all together in a way. So that's
probably the biggest change. And the other big
change, as you mentioned, I think, is that I
do not emphasize the ring very much. You know,
it's kind of there as a you know, if you know
the story, you're going to recognize it. But
the you know, I think partly because I just felt
like that aspect of it was so explored, both
by the Wagner opera and also because the way
that most people are familiar with the story,
I think, or one way that a lot of people are
familiar with the story is through Tolkien, because
Tolkien did draw on this source material. And
so the idea of a cursed ring associated with
a dragon, I think we already kind of have a story
about that in our heads. it would have been a
real challenge, I think, to tell a different
story about that for me. And so I wanted to just
shift it a little bit and say, well, look over
here at this part of it instead. Well, the other
thing that I really liked, and I'm trying to
think about how not to spoil things, is that
in one scene, further on in the book, in the
narrative that you've told, you've really embraced
kind of like Bryn Hill's past life as a Valkyrie,
and Valkyrie, I keep saying it wrong, I keep
pronouncing the I too much. Oh, I don't know.
I will get it right. I erased her past and brought
that on in various ways, like for instance, there
is a chance meeting with Loki, which again you've
depicted as a feminine form, which for many of
us now familiar with the Tom Hiddleston version
of Loki and that whole cinematic universe spinoff.
It's quite rare that he is a shapeshifter and
very much gender fluid and he is a very wonderfully
interesting character. And although he's got
a very brief, I say he, she, they, they have
a very brief, brief appearance, their dialogue
was really interesting. So I remember reading
just before I came on to do this interview, that
kind of like that conversation where Brunel says,
like, it sounds like you're giving me a warning
and that's not usual for a god of mischief. And
he goes, ah, well, well, I keep saying he, they
say, well, warnings are the best source of mischief
because you can either interpret them one way
or the other or you don't know what. what the
warning is about or about the timing kind of
thing and then of course you've broadened it
a little bit further in that there's a conflict
in the background of sorts between Odin and Freya
and then your brilliant expanding expanded ending
of sorts like an alternative ending to the Saga
of the Volsons that should have been there that
wasn't which I like I really liked that bit um
was kind of like after Brynhild puts herself
on the pyre and and burns and and that's for
me as a fan of anything to do with Valkyries
was absolutely mind -blowing how you really then
explored the mechanics and the role and the duty
and the almost weight of responsibility to juggling
power of respect for the dead or the dying because
they choose the dead and then they die they don't
choose from the dead and then of course kind
of like answering to Odin and knowing how to
keep a balance of where people go because I'm
gonna say just because Odin is an underwriting
force for a lot of the conflicts building and
building, building and building, both kind of
like on a personal level to a continental level,
aka Atilla the Hun and all that jazz, so to speak,
which really reflects Odin's character so well
because so many times he's come up in modern
media, he's just not depicted, I think, as the
knowledge hungry and power crazed and almost
like war. starved god that he is because he's
always paranoid about Ragnarok. And I love how
there is a line quite near the beginning where
I think kind of like, what do you dream about
Odin? Because I dream about people taking away
my power. I think that's a brilliant red light.
Oh, he's got that underlying paranoia there.
He's very much a control freak. He wants it all
for himself. And I know I'm just rambling. I
do have questions in here somewhere. It's all
good. But you of course explore kind of like
not just like the balance of power because Freya
is certainly a powerful female entity in anthropology
because of course she brings the cedar magic,
the cedar magic that Odin then of course pilfers
because he's just pilfering knowledge here left
and centre. But of course the often overlooked
and unheard of spiritual role of Dissir. versus
Valkyries because I've read about this here in
various non -fiction books as being alternative
female spirits and how they're sometimes around
to almost be like the fairy godmother to kind
of guide people to the good path or try and stay
away from the bad path but I like how you set
them up as very much Because often Freyja is
depicted as like the goddess of the Valkyries.
Of course, they answer to Odin, not to Freyja.
Even though Freyja, canonically, does select
half the dead to go to her hole in Valkvang.
So again, that's a really interesting balance
you've explored. And I would love to know your
thoughts on how and why you wrote what you did.
Yeah. Yeah. That was a real challenge for me
to decide how to incorporate that Norse mythology
and um especially because uh you know people's
knowledge of Norse mythology today I think is
going to be uh bits and pieces you know as as
why wouldn't it be uh you know little parts of
it that are better known than others um you know
I mean the Marvel Cinematic Universe has has
uh has I think introduced a lot of characters
in slightly different forms in different ways
which I love but but it does sort of create an
entry for people that are going to be having
those particular characters in mind and then
coming into the original mythology, it might
actually seem sort of unfamiliar, you know. So
I thought a lot about how to incorporate that
and I was really taken with the duality or the
binary between Freya and Odin and the Aesir and
the Vanir, this idea that there are these two
groups of gods that had warred and fought and
there was a truce and there were some deals and
bargains and magic was all part of the bargain
and everything else. So none of that really gets
explained completely in my novel. because it's
not really about that but that's sort of the
backdrop that there are these power dynamics
happening with the gods themselves and that explains
some of their behaviour. So I think that for
people who know that mythology in more detail,
they can understand what's happening there and
I hope that readers who don't will at least get
this sense of what some of the relationships
are and I tried to just put them on the page.
and these are you know different these are my
versions of Freya and Odin you know like they're
they're always going to be every interpretation
is going to be different um but I really did
love that um that idea uh and it was a challenge
too you know I did want to have um I needed to
have the afterlife present in some sense in this
book because um you know this is such a big part
of what what Valkyries do as you say it's uh
it's central to them but I had I had to think
about how am I going to interpret this for a
modern audience and explain the concept of the
multiple afterlives. And how does that make sense
in a novel in which you've got, it's set in the
real world where you will have, you know, Christians
and Jews and, you know, not Muslims yet, but,
you know, like Zoroastrians and, you know, different
faith systems, including old versions of what
we would now think of as sort of Viking belief
happening as well in Europe and how to be respectful
of all of that. Anyway, so now I'm rambling,
but yeah, it's all sort of went into this too,
you know, and I thought of, okay, well, how am
I going to make an afterlife in this novel that
makes sense with all of that and feels like it
could be integrated into the real world in some
way, but also honours. the stories that this
comes from. So I really loved, it was just one
of my favourite parts of the book was writing
the realm of hell and the realm of Freya, because
they're not as well known as the male -dominated
afterlife of Ohala. Yeah I really like that and
of course it made me have a light bulb and I
thought oh yeah kind of like because in your
book you depict that Bryn Hild became a Valkyrie
through some sort of human sacrifice when she
was a little girl and I quite like the image
you depicted of Odin taking her hand and leading
her off and then six years later she's a trained
and fled Valkyrie. It instantly made me think
for some reason of I think it's on Netflix of
the Echo series that Marvel's done with Kingpin
having that little girl come under the thing.
I haven't seen it, so I don't know anything about
that kind of comic thing, but it just made me
think of that particular scene. But of course
then she's technically dead already, so then
when she comes back to mortal life, yes, she's
kind of like living again, but then the biggest
and I think the most delightful twist is... that
in your telling, retelling, I should say, you've
not just have Sigurd bathed in Fafnir's blood
but you've also had Brynhildr do it simply because
they were both together when they killed Fafnir
and Sigurd is the one that I much like, oh look,
I can stab my hand and nothing happens. And I
just love how he just remarks upon that after
she's just woken up from her own ordeal of the
battle and the seat that... It's a very visceral
scene you describe of her bathing, and I thought
that was... Yeah, it made my stomach churn for
her. Yeah, it's gross. It's gross, yeah. But
then, of course, they're kind of like, they're
immortal, or at least can't be killed by blade,
so to speak, unless... Apart from Sigurd, of
course, with his one spot behind his shoulder,
which I always thought was a leaf, partly because
I grew up watching the Sword of Xamten film adaptation.
I don't know if you've seen the Sword of Xamten
before. I haven't. No. I will have to ping you
over the details. It should be out there on DVD
somewhere. It's been out for a good 10 years
or so. But that's a really nice film adaptation
of the side of the ball song from The Nibble
on the Inn and that kind of thing. And it's a
leaf that falls on his shoulder and that's what
stops that spot getting protected by the magic
of Fatinist Blood. But in the battle it's Brynhildr
because he pushes him out of the way before he
gets chomped as he usually does. I'm trying not
to. OK, right, I'll speak about Sigurd. No, I'll
speak about Sigurd in a minute. What I was trying
to say was about how, of course, in the canonical
story, Brynhill does kind of throw herself on
the pyre with Sigurd. But in this case they have
two separate fires and I wasn't sure, and I'm
sure you can correct me on this, because I haven't
quite re -read the full ending yet. But I remember
when Sigurd first tasted Fafnir's heart's blood
but he remarks, oh it hurts but it doesn't burn.
So then I'm like, okay, well how do you burn
their bodies then if they're also fireproof?
And thus I wasn't sure how Brynhild was able
to die for a second time. In the player because
she wasn't burning, but I know obviously you
can die from smoke inhalation. I don't know if
that's what I'm sorry if I'm thinking that too
practically The same thought process yeah, so
his You know, there's a little bit of ambiguity
I think in in my telling of the story in terms
of Bernold's status, you know as whether she's
completely mortal or not and she's At the beginning
of the book, you know, she's she's quite clear
that you know Odin has made her a woman again
and she always was you know in my my sort of
hand wavy approach to what the Valkyries are
like as you say I've decided that they started
as humans in my particular version of them and
and they just don't age because they're usually
in Valhalla and They they live very very long
times, but there's they still age a little bit
And so she is just a mortal in my conception
of her, but she does bathe in Fafnir's blood,
which confers this invulnerability to her skin.
And maybe she's got like a little bit of extra
something special, you know, because she used
to be a valkyrie. So she does manage to survive
this fall. But it's surviving in a very strange
and mythic way because she does go to the underworld,
right? So it's sort of half and half. And when
she gets there, Hell says, you know, like, what's
going on? Something's odd about you that you're
not quite living quite, not quite dead. So and
I think I was partly, you know, partly just trying
to sort of make sense of the stories in the source
material themselves, you know, because as you
say, she does, she does go on to a pyre in the
story. And then being a mythological tale, there's
then these other things, like there's a poem
called The Hell Riot of Brunhilde, which explains,
talks about her going down into the underworld.
And, you know, there are, aspects of the story
that continue even after death. And so I needed
to sort of find a way to tell that and still
have her be embodied in some way in a kind of
modern conception, like, you know, because the
questions of like, well, is she living or is
she dead? I think we're, you know, every society
will think about that in different ways. So that's
sort of where I was coming from there in terms
of how can... you know, how can we have this
moment feel real and feel embodied and corporeal,
but also draw in some of these sort of mythic
stories about afterlives and impossible happenings.
And it's, I think one of the things that inspired
that to some degree as well is the novel, The
Hero and the Crown. Have you ever read that one?
No, not heard that one. Yeah, it has nothing
to do with Norse mythology, but it's a novel
by Robin McKinley that was really influential
when I was growing up on me and I've read it
many times. And it is about a dragon slayer.
It's about a female dragon slayer. And so I think
that novel inspired a lot of how I conceived
of Fafnir. But also, I think just in general,
it was always in the back of my mind. And the
character in The Hero and the Crown, um also
has a kind of ambiguous relationship with mortality
by the end of it. So you know she bathes in a
lake and it's like you know she she's not quite
human at the end but she so she mostly is and
so I think that that idea of you know there there's
some sort of magic happening that we're not it's
not quite making sense um that was always really
appealing to me and that probably came apart
from from the hero and the crown as well. Well
thank you, that was really interesting to hear
because it made me think back because I was reading
just before we both came online the scene where
Gudrun is in the tent with Brynhildr, I'm not
going to say location or place of the story but
they're in a tent and Gudrun is quite... innocently
and charmingly asking Brinthill questions about
the afterlife in Valhalla and Brinthill's trying
to explain it's not the body we take it's kind
of like the brain because as Odin told her it's
the brain that distinguishes a warrior from a
murderer kind of like you take the imprint of
the world on the mind or the mind of the world
and that's what we take up and reading that certainly
made me reflect to kind of like my own experience
in dabbling with Assassin's Creed Valhalla which
you may or may not be aware of from your fictional
work with them. because I happily played through
their discovery tour of the Viking Age and they
follow a particular character that ends up in
Jotunheim because he gets killed but he can't
remember why and he speaks to an NPC character
outside Mimmi as well he was like oh I've given
up my augur I've given up my augur I can't go
back now and he told me I'd find out who was
the guy who did the dad dealing and it was like
it was an interesting aspect of certainly Norse
culture all the way the Norse and I'm speaking
of course broadly Scandinavia here as well as
Iceland, kind of like viewed parts of themselves
as like not just a body and a soul but like four
different elements I think they had and I thought
that was a really nice reflection of that of
you having Brynhild to try and explain that to
Gudrun because I certainly wouldn't be able to
explain it any better either. Yeah that was that
was one of the challenges for me and I think
actually That was something that I worked on
in later drafts because when I had given an early
draft of this to my agent, one of her comments
was, you know, I'm not quite getting how the
afterlife works here. What the sort of cosmology
is behind this and why the characters believe
what they believe and that kind of thing. And
I can't remember exactly what I had in the early
draft, but it was not... I was never quite comfortable
with it. I was struggling with trying to figure
out how to translate those older ideas about
the self into a modern concept. I think because
we do have those of us reading it now from a
European or European colonial mindset are coming
from a long, long history of understanding death
and the soul in a certain way, you know, even
if one is not religious, you know, we're just
totally affected by and sort of swimming in a
long culture that was affected by those ideas
of the soul and several world religions. But
as you say, there are some concepts of the self
and the afterlife that come through from old
texts that are quite different. So yeah, so eventually
I just, I thought well this relationship between
Gudrun and Brunhild will be a good way to explore
that question because they do actually come from
two different cultures within the story. And
that gives me a chance for Brunhild to talk about
the different ways that the afterlife pulls pieces
of the self. And so you can have in a single
conception of uh what it means to be a human
you can have stories that have ghosts and have
sort of almost zombie -like revenant creatures
and you can also have ohala and you can have
folkvang and hell and there's a there's an undersea
underworld as well and all of this makes sense
you know so that really was a challenge but i
was i was quite proud by the end of it that i
felt i had uh explained all of that in a way
without you know needing to say well let's have
a long lecture now but you know about Plato's
conception of the soul or something but you know
it did sort of integrate itself into the novel
and I felt like it needed to to be part of it
for for their understanding of what the afterlife
was to come through to a modern reader but it
was it was tough to get there for sure. Back
to I guess the original question about where
this all began so of course you would experiencing
or exploring Norse mythology through your son,
but did you have an interest in it before your
son also had an interest or was it just did it
to spark at the same time as your son was learning
more? Yeah, I always have been interested in
it. I've been interested in mythology in general,
you know, since I was a kid. And, you know, I
remember reading Edith Hamilton books about mythology
and just storytelling and coming to it, I think.
through modern versions of it to some extent
as well. And because of Tolkien, Tolkien was
so inspired by this story. He read a version
of the Sigurd, the dragon slayer story in the
red fairy book when he was a child. And that
was one of his formative experiences. So that
story was always with him. and of course then
Tolkien was really formative for me. I read The
Lord of the Rings when I was a young teen and
have read it many times since and it was always
there for me in the back of my mind and the love
of runes from Tolkien. So yes I've always been
interested in it in sort of indirect fashion
as well. Cool and have you read any in particular,
any kind of like Norse mythological retellings
or authors that you might recommend or books
that you would recommend? That's a good question.
That's one of those questions where as soon as
I get off the call, I'm going to think about
three things that I should have mentioned. I
mean, I know you've mentioned Neil Gaiman's retelling,
which I also absolutely loved. And then I went
and listened to an audible, which he self narrates,
which is even better. So I kind of like, oh,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, he's brilliant. I'm trying
to think, this one is not exactly Norse pathology,
but one of my favorite recent sort of historical
looks at this sort of culture is a book called
All the Horses of Iceland by Sarah, I want to
say Tumi, something like that, which is a very
short book and it's a narrative sort of grounded
in history about A person who travels from Iceland
during the middle ages into Europe But it's really
informed by a lot of folklore and storytelling
as well So that's the first one that springs
to mind in terms of retellings Yeah, I know that
there's something that is just in the back of
my mind that I want to mention So if it comes
up to me as we're talking, I'll say oh, this
is what it is. But yeah, there's been a lot of
really wonderful You know just illustrated books
about the myths and that kind of thing coming
out in the last 10 years or so and it seems like
every time I go into the store I see another
beautiful illustrated mythology edition. So it's
wonderful to see and it's such an explosion of
retellings in general right now as well. So yeah.
Well that leads me on to my next question because
I was going to ask kind of like how do you feel
about seeing I mean I guess you could say kind
of like more widely different mythology but it's
a particular Norse mythology and just Vikings
in general as the broad umbrella term that they
now are and I'm not going to mention horned helmets,
no, horned helmets. um kind of like has just
has a huge surge in the last 10 years or so because
they have always been around certainly kind of
like where I come from of course in Britain it's
part of our history and heritage and culture
and it's always on the syllabus at some point
in some year at some school college and I do
wish I could go back and study it properly and
do history all the way through from GCSE but
English, I went down the English route instead.
So here I am just talking about it instead of
doing lots of rereadings. But I'm always curious
to see how people feel. Is it a good thing, whether
the modern interpretations are doing anything
wrong or misleading audiences or that kind of
thing? Yeah, I think it's a great thing. I think
it is such an elastic kind of storytelling network,
I guess you could say, like the network of stories
is very resilient. And I think, you know, you
can't really wreck it. It's been there long before
we were around and it'll be here long after us.
And I think that, you know, it's wonderful to
see different interpretations coming in and,
you know, feminist and queer interpretations
of the stories, you know, which are, you know,
not, as you mentioned, you know, There's plenty
of scope. There's always been gender fluidity
and different concepts of sexuality and that
kind of thing in Norse mythology. So it's not
so much a placing of those ideas on old stories,
but a kind of discovering of different historical
traditions and how they can speak to us today.
So I think it is really rich in material that
we can use to explore what it means to be a person
alive in our time. And at the same time, you
know, one of the things that I was really conscious
of when I was working on this book is that the
Germanic side of it, you know, the sort of the
side that was explored by Wagner and others was
really appealing to the Nazis, right? And the
idea of Siegfried as this or Sigurd or Siegfried
as this, you know, perfect Aryan hero was a version
that that was their interpretation and how they
used the story for their own ends. So I think
that's part of it as well and I think taking
the story then and reimagining it and pulling
it out of that context and confronting it in
that context as well and saying okay well what
does it mean to be a hero and and how can we
look at stories of heroes and understand how
they've been used and abused and misused over
the years, that's all part of the tradition as
well. So, yeah, so I think it is really useful
for every generation to come up with their own
look at old stories and the whole tradition of
that story as well. That's just made me think
about, of course, the character of Sigurd, who
we haven't really touched much on because, of
course, he is there, but he doesn't have the
same spotlight as the Vastarei with the feminine
characters of course including Loki that you've
got and I remember I quite quickly became to
dislike him and I do hope that was the intention
because I think it was the way he treated Brunhilde
after they both killed the dragon and he decided
he was just going to go off on his own. Of course
partly because he through taking in the blood
of Fafnir's heart absorbed the knowledge that
Brunhilde had of talking with the birds and learned
all the birds are bad madding about Regan and
how he's going to get got and and that kind of
thing and how well he kind of explored his character
having almost a real... I want to say ego crisis
but it's almost like a self -esteem crisis in
that he so badly wants to be the hero because
he wanted to prove himself to Regan but now he
doesn't want to go near Regan because Regan's
apparently a threat so now he's got to show himself
to the world. around and how he instantly identifies
Brunnhilde as like his weakness is a kiddies
heel because he doesn't want anyone to know that
she helped him and why he became so outraged
that he learned that she was a Valkyrie because
oh well you effectively cheated then because
you're a superhero and you could have killed
it already you didn't need me and that kind of
thing. I thought that is a really interesting
tape because of course in the song with the Volstons
he doesn't have a lot of character, something
to speak in that particular saga. He just comes
out across as like the typical kind of quite
self -confident guy that'll just kind of like
happily save a damsel, take all the wisdom, say
okay I'm going to marry you now and then that's
it. Yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah it's funny because
I was talking about this book with the book club
last week and there was this everyone said, oh,
I hate Sigurd, you know, you're not the only
one. And definitely he's, you know, one of the
things I did want to do was flip around the idea
of this lone masculine hero. And, you know, one
of the things I think it's interesting about
that is that most of the moments in his story
are not actually that different in my novel than,
you know, in the source material. I mean, there
are different interpretations and different things.
But if you think about like, well, yeah, he does
trick Bryn Hild in the story and he does leave
her and he does, you know, as you say, he sort
of just marches along and says, well, I'll, you
know, I'm the hero and this is what I do. And
so But looking at it from her perspective, and
also, I mean, and I did interpret things differently
and think about motivations and that kind of
thing differently. But it did feel to me like
you could tell the story and the events would
be pretty much the same. But depending on how
you look at it, either he's, you know, this wonderful
heroic figure, or he is someone who is just unable
to accept that he's not perfect and that he's
sort of the unearned golden boy and sort of the
epitome of privilege in some sense. Even though
he doesn't come from a privileged background,
but he has this idea that he is the chosen one
and he's the one who's going to save the day.
So it was very much a kind of deliberate subversion
of the idea of the chosen one hero. And poor
Sigurd kind of gets the brunt of that in my telling.
I do feel a little bit badly for him because
I think he is being manipulated. But it's his
own choice to kind of go along with that. And
he has agency, he has the ability to not be that
guy. And he doesn't take the chance. He just,
you know, he says, no, this is, you know, he
can't see himself any other way. And eventually
he just sort of goes down that path. it does
and it really ramps up towards the end of kind
of like his climactic canonical death and end
scene and of course it's only in your expanded
ending where kind of Brynhild finds him in hell
and also meets the disheared Freyja that she
kind of then learns that kind of like Odin was
the one whispering all these suggestions, encouragements,
misdirections and I love how Odin is definitely
a master of misdirection I mean even at the start
when Brintell says okay then tell me where to
go if you are the only one he goes well you can
go left or you can go right he goes well either
way i'm following what you want i'm not i'm not
doing it myself and it i think that really reflected
how Odin's present is throughout kind of the
entire Volsung line from before Sigurd's time
all the way through to kind of like his and Goodwin's
end and that kind of thing is He's always in
the background pulling the strings. He's almost
like more, he's more trickster -y than Loki is.
And speaking of Loki, there was one question
that did have them in my mind. Of course, with
a scene that Loki's in, love to see more of that
one. So if you ever want to do a Loki -less novel,
please do, just saying. No pressure, no pressure.
Loki's definitely the flavour of the month, if
not the century. He mentions how, well, they
mention how they're being used as kind of like
a feint in misdirection. They've been sent to
thieve something by Aeridanast. I think, well,
what is Loki thieving from Freyja? Because I'm
trying to think of all the myths that Loki thieves
things. And the only thing I can think of is
something to do with her cloak. But in the myths
that I know of, he didn't exactly steal it. He
asked, she was a bit reluctant, and then she
gives it to him. And I think it's mainly to do
with the myth of Sif's hair getting lost, and
how he used to go fly off and speak to the dwarves.
So I don't know if you could maybe kind of fill
in that little hole that my brain is eager to
know. Kind of like, what was Loki doing? Yes,
yeah, yeah. I wonder if I'm going to be able
to, because I'll have to think about it. So one
of the... One of the things that I was referencing
there was what is it called? The Rissingamon,
which is her necklace. So Freya has a necklace.
But I can't recall how I wrote it now where I
decided that Loki was actually going to steal
it at that moment or had stolen it before. There
was a reference to it. But there is this sort
of pattern of uh some of the other gods going
and bothering Freya about things you know uh
that her necklace at one point and um there's
that story i'm trying to remember the exact isn't
there's Freya's involved in there's a story where
um you know Thor and Loki both dress up as women
and Thor is the yes that's my favorite one that
is my favorite one yeah i'm pretty sure Loki
asks if they can borrow Freya's necklace and
she says no unequivocally no right exactly exactly
yeah so i don't think there was any particular
item that i thought that loki was going to steal
if i'm remembering my own thought process correctly
don't worry i know it's probably yeah but it
was it was sort of that pattern of it seems like
these guys are always going to bug her about
something or to trick her or something like that
and i thought okay well um this will be some
one one of those adventures so Going back then
to Freya, kind of like, what was your thought
process behind involving the Desir and having
them be under her, kind of like, not, I say control,
but certainly almost command influence, and certainly
in a more amicable atmosphere from what we see
in the book to the way the Valkyries are under
Odin, where it's very almost like a military
boot camp, but with kind of like, they train
the horses to fly, which I absolutely love. Yeah,
yeah, so I, yeah, as you say that this year are
not, they're not as well known, I think, especially
to sort of an Anglophone audience today, it's,
they're not, we don't have this sort of mental
image of them the way that we do with the Valkyries.
And so one possibility for me was I thought,
well, I could try to make them really similar
to the Valkyries, but I think they do come from
a slightly different folkloric strand. They have
this association of being kind of spirits in
a bigger sense rather than the shield maidens
of the Valkyries. So even though they're doing
a similar function, especially in the interpretation
that I've used here in the book, They're not
exactly the same. You know, they're not they're
not exactly the same sort of being So I was really
I kind of thought a lot about how to have this
other set of female choosers of the dead And
you know, how would they be different from the
Valkyries? But how would they also kind of they
must have a relationship with them in some way
So they were a chance to create almost a kind
of foil and say well, you know what Odin has
created here is not somehow inevitable, you know,
that he made choices for how he was going to
deal with this system of the dead. And also I
was really intrigued by the concept, which, you
know, I didn't invent of, as you say, that the
half of the dead in battle would go to Folkvang
and half of them would go to Valhalla. this sort
of almost bureaucratic system of how do you choose
which half? And how does that all work out in
practice? It just seems sort of almost more symbolic
than practical. So trying to figure out how that
would look on the battlefield was a real challenge
and something that I felt like I had some scope
to kind of invent a little bit there. Yeah, I
really, really enjoyed it because I've only been
vaguely aware of them through my non -fiction
reading. but I certainly it made more sense than
have imagining kind of like Freya having loyalties
to half the Valkyries or having kind of like
having having to go to Odin to get her half and
she then takes her half in her own right with
her own crew of undead talent seekers so to so
to speak um yeah and I think the kind of course
the trying not to spoil it any too much but the
way you've got you have Brunnhilde kind of like
after her death in the canonical legend come
back and actually confront Odin and challenge
Odin even further so kind of like she challenged
him in the beginning and she got banished and
then she died because he she got tangled up in
his own further machinations and then she still
kind of like goes like no I'm I'm gonna get my
own allies and she does. Amazing, they're all
again females. She speaks to Hell, she speaks
to Frasier. Frasier? Frasier even, because be
English or even Norse. And she, together they
do kind of almost set up a kind of a trap to
get Odin to appear and actually kind of like
say oh look we know what you're doing, we know
you've done this, we know you've done that and
like can you just stop now? Because obviously
his... manipulation of characters in the book
and within the history kind of not just the mythological
characters but the historical ones to go to even
bigger wars and more wars which I think you've
again done really brilliantly to reflect how
that impacts on the Valkyries as almost as a
workforce and that they then become overworked
and they kind of like go blood frenzy and crazy
and then they don't care anymore about who is
dead or alive they just could have have fun because
it's chaos and that's all I can do to to survive
it really. It did strange it made my mind have
a strange parallel to um in in British history
when women started fighting in factories for
better rights and better pay compared to men
when they're all the same factories and how they
ended up having to stand their ground say look
we do exactly the same job so you need to pay
us all more and it made me think back to that
and how it is literally a group of women the
Valkyries fray a hell in their own way and of
course Gudrun kind of like so indubitously finds
the same moment and the same scene and later
on and they all kind of like do get over it and
almost kind of like miss well Goodwin in particular
gives him that bit of information that blows
him off and he kind of like settles things and
I did love I love everything, as you can tell
by the book. I probably said the word love more
than anything else. How Odin tries to kind of
like regain control of the Valkyries by saying,
oh, Brunhilde, oh, I'm so sorry. Just stop causing
trouble and come back and join the forces. You
can be immortal again. You can have your flying
horse and whatnot. And Brunhilde quite rightly
says no. You've kind of like you've ruined my
afterlife and then afterlife before that. And
you've just you're making too much mess because
and I think that rereading again for this analysis
that I'm doing and when Loki wants to kind of
like do you realise how many millions of people
will be drowning in their own blood before this
is over and I thought that was a really good
ominous kind of like undertone for what Oatkin's
effectively doing, he's just ramping up the wars,
ramping up the conflict, all because he's driven
by that insane need to get warriors for Ragnarok,
so that Ragnarok doesn't happen, so he doesn't
die, and of course getting more knowledge to
help in that whole inevitable fiasco, which I
absolutely love, and the scene of it is brilliant,
it reflects some of the kind of tales of archiaries
and how they have forms or cloaks of sorts that
they can take off and just... I'm trying not
to spoil the ending, don't read it, it's just
so good. It's like the cherry on the cake by
the time you reach the ending, I find, for me.
And I just love it all, I really do. It's the
kind of book that I dream of. Back when I was
a young wannabe writer when I did creative writing
university, it kind of died off afterwards because
procrastination in life and the lack of deadlines
and too many books to read. I just had too many
distractions and no discipline. But I try to
write about Valkyries myself because I do find
that there's so much unknown lore about Valkyries
and their role and how they become one. Like
we have 13 names in Poetic Header and they're
all connected to battle type tones or words or
verbs like post fetter and battle clam and of
course hilda meaning battle that kind of thing
and i think it's just such a rich gap for authors
to fill their imagination because of course we've
got no one telling us we're wrongs exactly which
is which is the rich thing and of course because
of that it allows it to be retold and adapted
in so many different ways it's why it's why i
found so many different books I have got more
than just once I've got e -books as well which
we've all carried and and it's why I've found
them so fascinating so I'd love to know more
about how you kind of like find Valkyries in
your own fascination any retellings any other
experience encounters and why you think I mean
even Marvel's brought along Valkyrie as a woman
and the Maidred King so so there we go yeah yeah
I know that's wonderful it's so wonderful to
hear and I feel exactly the same way and you
know I think one of the things that I find really
fascinating about it is like you that these little
bits that we have in the Eddas and you know the
names of the Valkyries and the idea that there
are probably these stories you know behind them
that maybe we've lost or that somebody might
have known at one time and so we don't have a
lot but what we do have is so fascinating and
the poem where Brunhilde I think she has a different
name, but she's sort of associated with Brunhilde
where she does, you know, teach Sigurd the rune
lore, which, as you say, I drew on in my book.
You know, it's so wonderful that there's this
female figure who is a warrior, and she's also
the teacher. She teaches the hero, you know,
how to make sure he doesn't get poisoned by his
ale and all the rest of it. So yes, just like
you're saying, I think that... these figures
are really fascinating and there's so much behind
them that is yet to be explored. One of the things
that was in my mind when I was writing this big
battle at the end and the context of the historical
war that it set in, as far as I know the sort
of final battles with Attila were some of the
bloodiest of all time if you look at them sort
of from a relativistic perspective of how many
people died on the battlefield and that kind
of thing and they were quite horrific and that
concept of war you know we have these stories
that are told from uh from a culture that uh
very much did find glory in in war and battle
um but also you know if we're looking at it today
and probably at the time as well there's there's
the other side of that right if you have these
these figures who are there to choose the slain
on the battlefield um you know there's a lot
of horror in that and there's a lot of uh questions
that we could that that raises for us today in
a in a time when is we're also you know witnessing
absolutely horrific wars and and death and uh
you know so I think that in that side of it of
uh as I sort of bring all that together I think
that that's what fascinates me about the Valkyries
is that there's um uh the multiple facets of
them because not only are they there to choose
glory on the battlefields um but they are also
teachers and healers and the keepers of of Rune
Lore and um and they have these wonderful personalities
and stories and all the rest of it so I think
that there are many many different ways to explore
that for sure. It's made me think again how much
they almost reflect a slight weakness in Odin
and his power because of course being a god you
would think well okay you can go choose whoever
you want to die and just get them yourself but
no he has he needs valkyries very much like the
christian god has angels I suppose. Another probably
religions and pantheons have their own kind of
like soul collectors and soul guides of course
like in Greece there's the boatman over there
over sticks I believe there's all these kind
of like these entities that can go in between
and I've always like yourself thought of valkyries
they must have been human before because they
they have that connection to us on the mortal
realm and most of the valkyrie books I've read
they certainly if not directly come from a human
background, but they definitely heavily involve
themselves in human culture and society and events
and drama and plot thickens and all that kind
of jazz, a lot more than like the North Cod's
do. I remember when I think it was in Oh, it
was a podcast I did with the Orbit Viking Day
podcast. I had Professor Caroline Larrington,
and author Joanne Harris and Francesca Simon.
And we're talking about why the Norse gods have
such a connection with one society today. And
the point I said to them is that they're effectively
human. They just happen to have apples that make
them live a lot longer, which is incredibly cool.
And because doctors are always telling tweeters
like an apple a day keeps. illness away and all
that all that kind of thing because they they
display all the flaws of humanity they're not
innately good but they're not innately bad they've
all got problems like Odin isn't um the quite
passive Odin of um Marvel Cinematic Universe
although I will say when hell came along it seemed
he did have quite a war frenzy reign but then
of course he downturned it all and went very
passive um whereas Odin isn't that kind of god
I think most certainly from the historical fiction
i've read most of the warriors that kind of like
beseech him when they're going to battle the
berserkers because they do want to get that bloodless
that crazed that kind of like no fear at all
and just kind of like daring and boldly going
and doing things and getting bloody and crazy
and just slaughtering million people whereas
most of the sensible warriors kind of like worship
Thor because Thor was more the god of the people
than Odin was Odin of course was reflected more
in the hierarchical society of the kings and
the princes and the Maybe not the queens and
that kind of thing. But I think you've also reflected
that quite well with the Valkyries as well, especially
when you describe how Valhalla is nice, but it's
unendingly nice. And you do make the brilliant
point of how there's no change. And Brynhildr
says there's no consequences, there's no risk.
We all die, but then we all come back up again.
We kill the boar and it comes back again. We
kill the boar and it comes back again. It's just
like we can kill a boar 101 different ways and
we'll still... have 101 different days beyond
that kind of thing. I think that was a real good
way of doing it. Again, so you mentioned Valkyries
kind of like almost becoming bored of their own
immortality, their own job, and of course Brunnhilde
and Sigurd are the kind of like the infamous,
not unrequited love, but kind of like tragic
love, very much like love Romeo and Juliet, kind
of like the dangers of a man falling in love
with an immortal, well not quite immortal, but
kind of like a woman out of his league, so to
speak, and that whole mishmash with the disguise,
you mention, through Brynhold of course, but
I know it's you, kind of like she gives reference
to other Valkyries deciding to also... so actually
no i'm gonna i'm gonna play dangerously i'm gonna
fall in love with that guy because he's quite
nice and actually no you're not gonna kill him
Brunhill just put your sword away i'll just take
him over here i love that little scene how she
just like led him to the woods and then his hands
and they saw her and then his hands are all over
and i'm like yeah yeah you probably would if
you'd just been pulled off a battlefield and
realised that a beautiful woman had saved your
life and of course he of course has an ill fate
he he does die in the end he gets murdered he
doesn't get to go to Valhalla so that Valkyrie
doesn't get to see him so she chooses to go and
be with his ghost near his barrow which I thought
was a really fascinating touch because then that's
almost two spiritual beings from different planes
and realms kind of like choosing to try and be
together and defy the laws that usually separate
them apart. So yeah I think you explore kind
of like the relationships as both romantic and
sexual through a whole, a lot of these characters
really kind of like openly well and nothing seems
shocking at all. Why are they not on the course?
Because we're much more aware of how diverse
love is in the 22nd century and we do hope that
they were at least aware of certain loves like
that back in the Viking age, so to speak. Yeah,
yeah, and it is a really... complex set of stories,
you know, and there's there's so much in it that,
you know, and as you say, like Odin, the old
stories about Odin are quite complex, and he's
such an interesting figure and not at all, you
know, it always reminds me of the line from the
line in The Witch in the Wardrobe where Aslan
is not a tame god, you know, and Odin is very
much like that, that he's not predictable and
he's not always kind certainly and he's absolutely
not assumed to be benevolent which is a little
bit you know uncomfortable I think for for many
modern readers because the concept of a god who
is actually kind of a jerk a lot of the time
is you know not at all unusual for older mythologies
but but it's not something that is sort of part
of our daily life today. But I think one interpretation
that I should mention, because it's definitely
been hugely influential on me, I mentioned Neil
Gaiman's Norse myths early on, but I think probably
even more influential is American Gods and his
version of Odin. in that story which I think
is absolutely true to the sort of classic interpretation
of Odin where he is not to be trusted and you
know he has his own agenda always, always has
an agenda and so that version of Odin I think
was definitely really informative for me as well.
Well I'm glad I found someone else who thinks
and knows the intricate depths and aspects of
Odin kind of thing. So, yeah, gosh. How long
did it take you to write Brynhild, well Brynhild's
story, The Valkyrie? It's hard to say because
I have this habit of working on multiple things
at once. So, yeah, so I have... I keep my emails
you know luckily so I can always go back and
see when I when I first wrote to my agent about
something. So when the year that I wrote to my
agent and I said I want to write this story about
uh about Runehill the Valkyrie uh was 2018. So
I was working on uh on it from from then and
I think I was writing it From about 2018 to 2021,
but I was working on other things at the same
time So I was you know revising my novel the
embroidered book and I had I was also writing
my Assassin's Creed novels and so often it'll
be a case where I'll take three months to be
drafting something and then I'll have to switch
to edits on something else and then go back to
drafting and So I think overall it was probably
about three or four years, but not exclusively
working on that And how did you find the research
level, because of course, as the Guardian brilliantly
quotes on the front, it is a, sustains a fine
balance between history and fantasy, which of
course is beautifully put, because as you said
earlier in this, it is, it has got touches of
history in it. It did exist, this myth, legend
isn't making it up. It just happens that he also
seems to, it just has the mythological side thing,
but as you've said, kind of like these myths
get retold and... things. So how did you kind
of balance the research with the mythology aspect
and of course the historical aspects and how
did you find marrying the two together? Yeah
I love the research part of it you know and that's
always probably one of the reasons why I keep
going back to historical settings with my novels
is that it's one of my favorite things to do
is to research and to think about how to fit
a story inside of history. So Yeah, the mixing,
you know, trying to figure out how am I going
to tell the story? And I did, I spent a long
time at the beginning thinking, okay, I'm going
to tell this in a kind of unnamed land, like
it's going to be, you know, sort of just story
land, you know, like these things are going to
be happening. But then the more I thought about
it, you know, the more I read this source material,
which is, you know, at its root, it did come
from this story of the people that were attacked
on the borders of the empire. And it's almost
invisible there now in the story, but it's there.
And I didn't want to lose that. I felt like it
was important to the story that there was a historical
happening, just like the Iliad is the story of
Troy. So, yeah, so I decided, okay, well, I am
going to ground this in history, but then that
gave me some challenges because I had to figure
out how this would all fit together. And then
I had to research a little bit about what this
part of the Roman Empire would have looked like
in the fifth century. And that part was quite
challenging because it's not, you know, it's
not to say that it hasn't been studied, it's
been studied, but there's not a lot of popular
history about the sort of Germanic you know,
client kingdoms on the edges of the Roman Empire
is not a subject of a lot of popular history
that I've found. So it's very, you know, there's
academic work, but it's not super accessible
for someone just trying to get a sense of what
was happening. But I love academic work, so I
sort of dove into journal articles and stories
about the Burgundians, and any time I can find
primary sources, that's always the best. So things
like the Burgundian legal code still exists we
have it and I found a translation of that and
so understanding their legal code helped me to
understand what some of their norms and values
would have been and you know things like how
would they have eaten dinner would they have
would they have reclined to eat dinner because
they were part of an empire or would they have
had chairs you know and just like stuff like
that it was just the amount of hours i spent
thinking about whether or not they would recline
or not to eat dinner and eventually i ended up
deciding that they would do both that they would
have like a roman dining room and then they would
have their sort of germanic dining room depending
on which guest they're entertaining so yeah so
i really i i did get sort of deep into that stuff
in terms of how can I make this feel grounded
in real history? And yeah, I always kind of over
research, I do a lot of research. Well it sounds
like you enjoyed it and I guess that's good because
it does definitely come through with like the
details like between how Gunnar has to effectively
fight for his kingship and it's his uncle I think
who picks Sigurd to be his champion because he
simply comes across him here like oh he killed
a dragon can you just go defeat my nephew for
me so I can rule. I like that bit of politics
because that was something that I wasn't really
aware of because certainly in the Saga of the
Volsungs you don't get that kind of culture of
the Brigandians coming through, but you do it
really well in your book. And the other question
I was going to ask was the Saga of the Volsungs
certainly have that little title speech, their
chapters and sections, and I do quite like the
titles for your chapters and indeed of course
your sections because you've got about four.
Did you struggle with any naming particularly
chapters or did they come out quite naturally
when you've finally segmented them off? I think
they came pretty naturally for this one. One
of the things I wanted to do with the chapter
headings in this one was just suddenly signal
to the reader you know, whose story we were looking
at because I do have two first -person narrators
and I know that can be confusing for readers
when you have I and the I are two different people.
And so each of the chapter titles actually, you
know, includes the name of the woman who's speaking,
although there are a couple of times when it's
like Gudrun talks to Brunhilde or something.
You have to really parse it to figure out, but
for the most part, it's like when Brunhilde speaks
to the birds or whatever, then you know, okay,
well, this is a Brunhilde chapter. So it was
just sort of a practical thing to clue in the
reader a little bit, although not everyone reads
chapter titles or clues in that way. And the
sections too, just sort of the stories seem to
fall into particular... particular pieces that
way and it did give me a chance to kind of draw
a little bit on the, just pull out some of the
imagery and you know just bring the reader into
what I really wanted them to focus on in terms
of imagery and tone for those sections. Well,
I really liked it, and of course it made me think
to how the Saga of the Volsung's was written,
but oh, she's copying it, but then of course,
yes, I unconsciously wasn't aware that they was
actually also telling me which character was
speaking, although I am now because I'm rereading
it and going to all the Brynhildr ones. Goodrun's
kind of part is also kind of like significantly
equal contribution because as well as expanding
Brynhildr's ending beyond the Piosene, you've
also expanded on Gudrun's ending because I'm
not quite sure I can't remember what happens
to her as such after the burning of the power
inside of the Volsungs but I quite like where
you kind of gave her her own kind of female independence
and agency in different ways. Yeah yeah and that
that was a tricky thing to decide because she
so that's one place where the Nibelungen lead
actually departs quite a bit from the Norse versions
or vice versa. They're quite different in terms
of what Gudrun's, the ending of her story is.
So, you know, there are some versions of her
story in which she takes revenge on her own brother
and the men of what I call Vermesia or the city
of Worms in what is now Germany. So she actually
turns on her family and she goes off and marries
Attila and uses that as a way to take revenge.
And then there's other versions of the story
where she revenges herself on Attila and burns
down Attila's camp and kills him, which is probably
inspired by the historical event, which is Attila,
his death possibly happened at one of his wedding
feasts and he married this new wife. and she
may or may not have poisoned him. Her name was
Ildiko. And so that may have been the inspiration
for the sort of goodering, cream -hilled character
taking revenge on him. And I have a little reference
to that in the book as well. So I won't talk
about which version I have in my story, but there
are these long, and there are some of the versions
also include like, you know, other... other storylines
long after this of what happens with Brynhildr
and Gudrun and, you know, there's a Svanhild,
who is another girl who comes into it later on.
And so that was, I felt very much like there
were several different possibilities I could
do when it came to the ending. And, you know,
yeah, the sort of big moment on the pyre and
the choice of, you know, who pays for the death
of the hero in some sense feels like a big climax,
but there are other things that then happen and
the way that that story plays out. So yeah, I
feel very much like it could be a bit of a choose
your own adventure at the end, you know, but
I wanted them to have a particular kind of ending,
which, you know, I wanted this to be in the end
about these two women. So that's that's sort
of what drew me back to deciding how I was going
to end this novel. Well, I really salute it and
I salute you for your research, your writing,
your talent and your clear passion for this.
It comes through and of course they do have a
happy ending of sorts at the end but it just,
it's of course Grunheim and Brunhilde too, we've
been kind of like in this male dominated world,
both divine with Odin and of course politically
with Gunnar and the rivals of power and of course
the Hun and war and it, they really do stretch
and push themselves to try and stand on their
own two feet and find their own purpose of their
own path regardless of what everyone else says
and I think that really of course speaks to so
many women around the world trying to break through
the patriarchal circle that dominates still a
lot of society and from business to parenting.
I'm not going to go on that one. So yes but I
really really enjoyed it and I do highly recommend
that anyone in slight interest in North Pathology
or just wanting a really good feminist empowering
story with a really lovely twist should definitely
go. Bye. It's so beautiful. It's wonderful. It's
so lovely to talk to you because when you're
in the middle of writing a book like this, you
get into the middle sections. it just feels you
get despair and you think why did I ever start
this you know I don't have I can't finish it
I'm just you know this was a mistake from start
to finish uh and there's always that moment where
you just feel like total despair um but I think
what what drives you forward as a writer is knowing
that somewhere out there is a reader who is going
to get it and is going to um connect with it
in some way and so talking to you and knowing
well you are that you are that ideal reader because
you know you have the background and you get
it on so many levels um so uh yeah it's a real
it's a real joy to to talk to you oh well thank
you i mean i don't have the courage to learn
the time nor the energy and definitely not the
imagination to write anything as beautiful as
good but i'm just grateful that there are women
like you that do and it's funny how a lot of
the books actually that I read about Valkyries
are written by women. A lot of the Norse fantasy
I read generally is written by women apart from
Neil Gaiman and Snorri Kristiansen. I think there's
really only a couple of men actually on my shelf.
It's nearly all women and predominantly white
Western women, of course, which is another angle.
I've always been curious about how the Norse,
both in mythological and definitely the historical
sense, is very much definitely kind of like a
Western white hemisphere. There's not much interest
and connection with kind of the wider global
citizenship from the southern or far east kind
of thing. Although getting into Norse mythology
and anime is a definite, definite topic for a
different episode entirely. But yes, so thank
you so much. I am all out of questions. because
otherwise I'm just going to keep complimenting
you and all this and that and I'll give away
too many spoilers, too many spoilers. But I really
appreciate your time joining my humble little
YouTube channel in my wonderful little series
called Valhalla Conversations. And it really
is, it's a conversation in Valhalla for me to
be able to speak to wonderful creatives with
equal passion and interest and, as I say, like
-mindedness that we both share. So thank you
very much, Kate. Well, thank you. And I knew
that when you asked me earlier on that something
would would trigger in my mind that I would want
to recommend a retelling and it did finally just
before the end. So I definitely want to recommend
my friend Chadwick Ginther's books, the Thunder
Road trilogy, which is Norse mythology that is
reinterpreted and reimagined in modern Manitoba,
which is where I grew up and has a strong Icelandic
community. So definitely check out Chadwick Ginther's
books. Oh, brilliant. Well, do pay me along these
details and I'll make sure they will be in the
notes below this video, dear viewers. So, of
course, I promote and support all North, all
North. Anything Viking usually gets my money
and my name shouting about it somewhere. Yes.
So, but thank you so much for joining me. It's
been a real privilege and honor and a real pleasure
to talk about all this with you. And of course,
I wish you best of luck with all your future
writing projects. Thank you. Likewise.