Welcome, dear viewers, listeners, readers, etc.
Welcome to what'll be my fourth episode of Valhalla
Conversations, as I'm officially titling this
random series of remarkable panellists I keep
pulling together on all my North's favourite
topics. And today's topic is a big review, debate,
critique, sharing of thoughts and ideas on the
rather remarkable, I think, series called Ragnarok
on Netflix, which, to summarise, is basically
an adaptation in many ways of Norse myths set
in the modern world and quite aptly set in Norway
and there's three seasons of it we do recommend
you all go watch it after this panel and there
will be spoilers because we are discussing more
or less all three seasons within this one episode
and I'm delighted that I've been joined not by
four but by five wonderful panelists all with
their own passion and expertise and knowledge
of Norse mythology in both their works both fictionally
and in the non -fiction academic world as well.
So we shall go around and each of the panelists
will introduce themselves and of course mention
any books that you might want dear readers and
viewers to buy, purchase and browse. I have a
few of them on the shelf behind me, just about
seat behind my head. So Caroline Larrington,
would you mind introducing yourself, please?
Of course. Well, I'm Caroline Larrington and
I've just retired from teaching medieval English
literature at the University of Oxford, but I'm
still researching away and one of my principal
research. interests is Old Norse myth and legend.
I've published a couple of books on Old Norse
myth for the trade market, the Norse myths from
2017, and just came out last year, the Old Norse
myths that shape the way we think, which is very
much to do with the way that Norse story has
been received in the modern world. I also translated
the Old Norse poetic edda, one of the most important
sources for Old Norse myths and legends. Wonderful,
thank you for joining us today. Joanne, would
you like to introduce yourself and your wonderful
works? Hi there, I'm Joanne Harris and I've been
passionate about Norse myths since I was about
six or seven and I've been collecting various
versions, translations, retellings ever since.
I started to write my own when I was about eight
and I finally got around to getting one of them
published. much much later than that with the
Gospel of Loki and rune marks, rune light and
the testament of Loki which are all kind of part
of an emerging series which which which runs
likely over the graves of a lot of a lot of serious
nursery tellings but yeah I'm really happy to
be here and to be able to talk about this show
which I might have missed otherwise. Thank you
I'm very happy to have you with us and I'm so
happy I kind of pestered you into watching it.
Okay, Louis, would you like to introduce yourself
and your wonderful works? Yes, hello, I'm Louis
Stowell. I'm an author of children's books and
now an illustrator too. I came to North Smiths
through Wagner and Tolkien as a child because
I played the trumpet and it's very rare for orchestral
music or operas to have a really good trumpet
part. So I was team Wagner because of that, obviously
not team the man. did a performance of the Ring
Cycle, like semi -staged, I say the Ring Cycle,
I mean a very short section of the Ring Cycle,
and it just had a very profound impact on me,
these kind of epic stories, and I don't think
I really kind of followed them up into the Norse
versions until a bit later, but Tolkien also
brought me to Norse myths, and in ways that I
didn't realise, and I didn't realise all the
dwarves were Norse myths, I didn't realise that
the Ring was in some ways the Ring of Vanvari.
Yes, I think I only kind of, it'll bubble to
consciousness later. I had the pleasure of doing
a non -fiction book of retelling of the myths,
and then that's when I finally actually read
the, say, original sources, but the source material,
including Caroline's translation of the book,
and a few others, which eventually led me to
write Loki, A Bad God's Guide to Being Good,
which you can see right here. This is a child
fiction. It's really cool, so I'm keeping it.
And yeah, so that's a kind of very lighthearted
Norse. Retelling is the wrong word. It's using
characters from Norse myths and elements from
Norse myths to tell a story about what it means
to be a child now, and among other things, what
it means to have a family, what gender is, all
those things. Wonderful. We're so glad you could
join us for this wonderful panel. Caitlin, would
you like to introduce yourself, please? Hi, I'm
Caitlin Felix, and it's really a privilege to
be among all of these illustrious authors. I'm
an author of Norse historical fiction and fantasy,
although I don't have a full -length novel out
yet. That will be forthcoming in the fall, titled
Ran's Daughters. It will be out with Outland
Entertainment, but it is a follow on to my short
story with the All Thingy anthology from the
same publisher, which dealt with a lot of the
history between the Norse peoples and the Muslim
peoples, the Arabic peoples and the trade and
all of the trade routes and all of the interactions
between them. I also came to Norse Myth and Norse
history through Tolkien. I was a very, very big
Tolkien fan. You can probably tell by some of
the comments. Yes, I'm just happy to be here
and it's good to be among you all. Thank you
for having me. You're very welcome, Caitlyn.
Thank you so much for accepting this invitation
for one of my crazy projects. And last but not
least, Genevieve, please introduce yourself.
Hi, I'm Genevieve Gornicek. I ended up like this
because I took a course on the Old Norse language
when I was at university, and that was my rabbit
hole into this entire subject. That autumn, I
took a course on the Old Nordic myths, and while
I was supposed to be working on my term paper,
I wrote this little Loki fan fiction called The
Witch's Heart. and many years later ended up
as my debut novel in 2021. It is a reimagining
of the Norse myths centering the giantess Angerboda
who we don't know a whole lot about so I kind
of tried to fill in the gaps and write my own
little alternate universe kind of story and then
two years later this past summer my second novel
The Weaver and the Witch Queen which is a reimagining
of the origin story of Gunnhild Mother of Kings
came out so I really enjoyed Um, you know, uh,
watching Ragnarok just, uh. I guess a little
segue into the show, but I'm really, I'm really
happy to be here. So thank you so much for having
me. You're very welcome. I'm so delighted to
have all of you again. I mean, I've previously
collaborated on my humble videos with Caroline
and Joanne before, but equally to spread out
and get more of my favorite authors. Admittedly,
I've still yet to read your Genevieve and I will
definitely read yours, Caitlin, when it comes
out. My shelf is always full of books to read.
I keep having to take books off to push on a
lovely display like this because it's usually
just full, just full. But I'm so delighted to
have you all on board and of course have more
fans to talk about Ragnarok because no one I
know, certainly in my family, in my very small
mum -friend network and certainly at work, has
not yet seen Ragnarok or even heard of it. And
I can't yet quite remember how I came across
it. I don't know whether it was just the algorithm,
whether it just popped up in an advert, but I
started watching it and then I just carried on.
And remarkably, thankfully three seasons later,
here I am talking about it. So, Ragnarok, as
I mentioned at the start, is set in a fictional
town of Edda in Norway. There is a cast of young
characters, they're all young people, kind of
like sixth form, college, high school, kind of
age. There's a few adults as well and it really
does explore kind of like family dynamics, identity,
belonging, finding oneself, independence. I know
I've read articles online that the writer and
director say it's really is kind of like almost
like a coming -of -age story kind of like finding
oneself and season three certainly does kind
of like clarify the off at the end we'll get
to that bit because season three's ending is
a hot topic of debate amongst those online right
now. But we'll start off, we'll just go with
kind of like the main character, the main protagonist
who comes along and is Magni. He's quite a large,
tall, well -built young man. I think it was...
I have ADHD or autism that they mentioned in
the first few episodes where they kind of introduced
him to the school. I know he's got some kind
of neurodiversity element to it. Dyslexia. He
was dyslexic. Dyslexic, that was it, sorry. It's
been a while since I've seen season one viewers.
I have re -watched all three seasons, but it's
a lot of episodes. Well, six episodes per season,
so you can watch them comfortably within a month.
I'd say, although with me it was like one episode
each night, sometimes two, sometimes three, sometimes
four if I wanted to really push the boat out.
And he gets approached by an elderly woman of
the town called Edda, and she mysteriously activates,
awakens some kind of supernatural ability strength,
certainly when he learns he can throw a hammer
several thousand feet far away, breaking all
world records kind of thing. And he basically...
becomes, over the stories of three seasons, Thor,
which is quite apt because I'm sure Thor's actual
sons, in the mythology Thor's sons have a magne
or a magnus. Yes, he has two sons, Moody and
Magne. Magne, there we go, so that's a nice touch
that the writers put in there, kind of flagging
it up that this guy will become Thor, just for
those in the know that know. His story arc over
all three seasons I would describe season one
as almost like his Peter Parker coming of becoming
a hero kind of thing because he doesn't well
he doesn't quite lose his uncle Ben but he certainly
does lose someone he gets quite attached to in
the friendship way not in a kind of like platonic
way. quite early on, we won't give too many names
so I try not to spoil it for dear viewers who
will hopefully go and watch this, please do,
please do, afterwards. Does anyone else have
any thoughts on Magni's story arc or particular
episodes? I was just thinking about your Peter
Parker parallel and it's that he's bitten by
a radioactive auntie in this case. Not quite
bitten, I don't know if she's bitten by a radioactive
auntie. I think one of the interesting things
at that point is the way that you begin to see
these characters who just like look like ordinary
inhabitants of a Norwegian town beginning to
emerge and you see the one -eyed man in his wheelchair,
Votan, very early on and you think oh it's just
a one -eyed guy in a wheelchair but when Venke,
the the character at the supermarket who turns
out to be the serious starts to speak to him
it's one of those moments where you go okay now
I begin to see and in particular I think the
way that over the episodes Magny gathers this
kind of group of friends it's classic quest stuff
isn't it is like the companions of the ring he
gathers his cohort and then he alienates them
and then they come back together again and I
think it's really clever the way you begin to
see them emerging and go oh I see who that is
now. Yeah you are playing kind of spot the analog
all the way through and sometimes I changed my
mind about who people were supposed to represent
as I was watching because at first I think I
didn't read the there's you know the blurb on
Netflix closely enough and I assumed it was supposed
to be Thor's son not Thor um because the name
I just was being quite literal you know. That
would sound like an interesting take. Yeah yeah
um because I don't know if anyone's read the
Wicked and the Divine um but this it was strongly
reminding me of that where again you're kind
of trying to map your concept of the pre -existing
gods onto the versions in the story which again
is adolescence and I feel there's something about
kind of the change you go through when you're
a teenager that really kind of feels a bit like
you're coming into your power as a god but also
it's terrifying power and you know and you can
lose that power quite easily. Yeah I thought
that that really struck me, I thought of the
wicked and the divine as well and I also thought
of the the general idea of god aspect it's being
potentially interchangeable. So, you know, he's
named after Thor's son, which, I mean, he could
quite easily have been named Thor, so why wasn't
he? And so I just assumed that this was about
trying on personas and different aspects, and
that this would be a show about narratives primarily,
given that the town is called Edda. And also
what struck me was the idea that disability marks
special ability. And it's a question of beyond
it, so you know there's a reason that Wotan is
in a mobility scooter and that Magni has these
coke bottle glasses that he quickly gets rid
of when he starts coming into his new identity.
I like the idea of it being a kind of loose set
of connections to the myths and partly because
I think the experience of myth is that it's not
a kind of it's not a system, you know, it's not
a kind of organized religion. It is, you know,
each figure in the myths can be interpreted in
different ways and in different texts, they'll
turn up as different people. So yeah, so I think
actually my instinct was to try and look for
very strict connections, but actually I think
that was wrong. And I think it is more fluid.
And as you say, Joanne, it's the idea of trying
on identities that's key, you know, for that
kind of particular age. It is and also when and
the fact that they're coming from a different
place into a new school is interesting because
that's what you do when you go to a new school,
isn't it? You try on a new you and you make new
friends in a different way and there is this
general feeling that this is also what they're
doing and that this sense of place is absolutely
attached to this new identity. And it's classic
teen TV, it's the opening of Buffy as well where
she comes to a new school. I was just going to
say, it's very much like archetypes held very,
very loosely. We don't really see a lot of who
they were, Magni or Louriths, before they come
to Eta to have a new beginning. So it is very
much tying in with that. like these these archetypes
that we have in Norse mythology and Coming into
yourself as a as a person as an adult a young
adult. I found that very very interesting Particularly
because I when I was about the same age I moved
away from America to Europe and Reinvented myself
in an entirely different way. So I connected
very very strongly with that And I thought that
without saying anything in too much detail about
the ending when we get to that much discussed
ending we have to remind ourselves I think this
was always a high school story in a way and that
may not exactly explain away the ending but it
does give you a way of accounting for it that
makes some kind of narrative sense, I would say,
though the more I've been thinking about the
ending, more questions it's been raising for
me over the last few weeks thinking about it.
Interesting. Absolutely. I think it's interesting,
too, that Magne and Lauritz were kind of on a
parallel path of reinventing themselves, right?
Because Lauritz's character arc, the way that
he changes during the show, ugh, it's so beautiful.
Listen, I would die for Lauritz. I love him.
Oh, thank you. Oh, my God. The end of season
one, where he's impersonating Ron, ugh, so beautiful.
Iconic. Truly. For viewers who have yet to learn
about the wonderful series, Laurets and Magny
are brothers, presented as brothers at the start
of the film, and they're moving back to Edda
because their mum needs a new job and that's
where she's going to get a new job. It turns
out that she actually grew up there and met their
father there and did start initially with the
family there but then their father died. We don't
know why or how. or exactly precisely when, although
I do know the visit to the gravestone and I can't
remember what date was on his gravestone, I think
it was 2002, but then they left and now they're
coming back, it's a strange return story for
the mother as well as the sons. But they need
that return for the history, don't they? Yes,
they do. When Laritz discovers who his real father
is and that all has to be explained from that
episode in the past that the boys can't remember.
I love their mother. She's one of my favorite
characters. She's so much like my mom. It's scary
sometimes. I think she's one of the most relatable
mothers of a chosen one that I've encountered
in fiction. And also the supporting cast, not
just the side characters, but the other kids.
Oh my god, Magna, the guy who's running around
shouting all the time. What must a chosen one
look like from the outside for people who have
no idea what's going on? That was a really nice
touch. Well, as we said, Lauritz is Magne's brother,
and if Magne is indeed becoming, in many various
ways, Thor, Lauritz definitely, totally, and
very clearly becomes the Loki character. And
I must admit, he does a better job than Tom Hiddleston
in some ways, mainly because Tom Hiddleston's
character is very much nailed down in Marvel.
law, so to speak, whereas this one, it feels
very organic, very real, and again reflects so
much of what teenagers and young people go through.
Especially not just kind of like in terms of
family dynamics, as Caroline explained, Lourdes
discovered that he's not actually the full brother
to Magdi, he's a half -brother. Turid, their
mother, had a slight fling with a part of the
cast we haven't yet actually mentioned, which
is the Juttall family, and for those who are
slightly... familiar with Old Norse and I'm only
slightly familiar, I do know that Juttrull at
least alludes to giant and of course Thor and
giants they never get along in classic mythology
and they're very much part of the whole Ragnarok
setup aren't they really. So it turns out that
of course Laritz is the secret son of what ultimately
becomes Magni's great antagonist to which is
Vidar, which is the head of the Yutl family.
The Yutl family are very much kind of like very
social elite, they run and own the big chemical
factory which makes a lot of work and wealth
for the town of Edda. There's a very strong environmental
theme all the way through which I think is also
relatable because of course I know like I'm sure
kind of like an environmental crisis or environmental
anxiety was like one of the key words in the
English dictionary several years ago because
it's just been getting prevalent and more prevalent
in young people's minds especially with Greta
Thunberg who I know, Saxa who is The daughter
of Vida Util actually kind of like quotes back
up Grin, or Grino Gris, that's it not Grin, Gris,
quite aptly in one of her kind of like sassy
moments. The Util family has Vida, there is Ran,
his wife who is also a giantess and they have
two giantess children, although they're not Rans,
which is rather interesting. Fjord and Saxa.
and I do think as the viewers will then learn
kind of like they're basically mortals they see
they can age themselves very elderly or they
can kind of remain very mature very professional
age kind of thing more middle age and of course
wouldn't the scenes of Rida looking through the
old family photo album and there's like really,
really old ones that you wouldn't see from like
the 18th century kind of thing. I keep thinking,
do they each take it in terms being the adults
in this family photo album? Because the family
resemblance of the actors is remarkable. They
do look remarkably like each other and I thought
they've done rather well to get these cast of
actors together really well. I think they do
discuss that in one scene that Vida and Ryan,
they're being very kind of paternal almost, you
know, parent -like and bossing the kids around.
The kids are saying, well, this is your turn
to be in charge and tell us what to do, but next
time around, we'll be the parents. And if you
look back in the album, you can see how those
facial types kind of recur. So it does seem that
they take it in turns generationally, and I guess
they have to pretend to die. This makes a lot
of sense, because this is one of the themes,
isn't it, of the piece. It is all about cycles,
and the beginnings and the end of cycles. They
kind of inhabit the cycle there, and to them
it is a cycle of power and reincarnation. But
it's interesting that they are the giants in
mythology, but they're also the giants in terms
of industry and wealth. and they are kind of
labeled almost instantly as the you know the
adversary because they are doing harm both to
the land and two specific individuals and you
know you know that basically their wealth and
their power is going to be something that the
heroes of this story are going to have to challenge
and potentially overcome in some way or another
and you know that the fact that they've they've
entered this kind of edict narrative means that
they too have a role to play in this cycle and
you can kind of see it coming from from very
very early on I wondered if anybody had thoughts
on the fact that the giants are the ones destroying
the environment versus like in the myths how
they kind of like represent nature and have all
these associations with nature. I was seeing
that in connection with the Ragnarok myth. So
the idea that the giants are the ones that bring
about the end of the world, and the utol family
in this context bringing about the end of the
literal world. But I do, it is interesting that
starts off as a literal version of the end of
the world, our world, but then with, and what
spoilers am I allowed to say? A slightly more
metaphorical destruction. It is actually, I never
thought of that. We know there's the fire giants
in Muspelheim. I don't know, I want to say ice
giants, but I don't think there is ice giants
canonically in the north. Totally frost giants,
obviously. But they're in charge of a balance,
aren't they? They are holding a balance and it
is the unbalance that happens that brings about
Ragnarok and the gods are at the heart of it
actually. Sorry, the gods are basically what
unbalances this kind of cosmic oneness and brings
out this conflict. It's like the creation myth
actually is the appearance of the gods is what
causes the conflict with the giants by killing
them. Yes. Making the world from you. And I'm
pretty sure that in dialogue terms there's a
point again where the kind of family history
of the yurtles is being discussed that maybe
Rannet says well in the old days we used to be
content with owning the sheep and and having
a kind of pastoral agrarian economy but we had
to move with the times and we had to when Norway
industrialized we had to industrialize as well
because that's how we had to keep our power and
maybe there's a sense there that it's if that
entails environmental destruction that goes with
industrialization and they don't care because
they should care really because if they're immortal
they're going to have to live with the consequences
longer than the human population of Edda. maybe
they do have another round it's as if powers
become more important for them than the kind
of role that Genevieve was talking about about
being kind of guardians of nature and they become
modern and that kind of dialogue about will Saxa
have a role in the the firm and she gets excluded
and then she wants to come back with a real green
new environmentalist policy. You can see how
she kind of shifts from the old style capitalist
model that the Yurtles had into this newer form
of social enterprise. There's a really strong
industrial political allegory running through
the whole of this about times changing, cycles
repeating themselves, but being broken by change,
and how to adapt and how to survive rather than
be broken by what goes on. And I think, you know,
but this kind of starts to hint at itself very
early on. And this is why I think the yutls have
these these conversations, these earnest discussions
about whether they have sold out from the old
ways, whether they have to change or whether
they actually should change back. And there's
this constant feeling within the family that
there are breakaway youth factions that are getting
far too interested in what people are wearing
at school and who's going out with who, whereas
in fact they should be looking at ruling the
world, which is their job. And I just love the
fact that it keeps shuttling back and forth from
these two points. That's a very good point. That's
a really good point because Soxa is the one saying,
you're having emotions. Why are you having emotions?
I love that. That's a good point. You sit and
watch cartoons whilst eating popcorn all day
what you said to Vida. And of course, Soxa getting
onto the white wine once Laura senses the family.
That is one of the most beautiful moments. Vida
is just on the couch eating candy. Watching some
kind of American drama. I'm making brownies.
It really is. Interesting. Old guard versus new
guard coming through. It gets kind of feelful.
Ron tells Vidar, you're not good at emotions.
And within the same episode, at the very end,
during the protest in front of the util industries
factory, Somebody's asking Vedar for a statement.
You know, what are you going to say about this
protest? And he says, well, I'm not good at emotions,
but earlier in that same episode, like you can
see the emotion on his face. You can see the
tears in his eyes. Not spoiling too much here,
but. it was to me that was a really interesting
parallel how so many times one of these characters
one of these utils are telling off someone else
or saying hey no you can't do it that way or
why are you being this way but then that very
same character goes and does the same thing it's
really interesting back to the cycles thing we
were saying before it's interesting because it's
really good observation i think it's oh sorry
sorry lou i think it's really interesting that
when you look at these these factions of people
it's almost as if all of them inhabit some kind
of area of neurodiversity and the utols inhabit
this this disconnection with feeling whereas
the gods are all about the feelings and sometimes
there's a bit less thought going on and so the
idea that Actually, the reason they're drawn
together so much, that the reason that they're
drawn to each other even though they're adversaries
is that actually they belong together. They shouldn't
be completing themselves rather than tearing
themselves apart. And there's this, this is why
they're always kind of hanging around each other
and observing each other and fancying the pants
off each other. I love that. I mean in the Yutl
family when they have disagreements they either
beat each other up or wield out knives and try
to kind of like kind of like ninja attack each
other. It's very much kind of like they go kind
of like down the aggression kind of like physical
domination route where of course with Magni and
Lawrence's family I mean I'll always remember
when there was a scene I think where Lawrence
tells to kind of like you've never taken responsibility
for anything and oh by the way you're out of
milk kind of thing. I think that was in season
two and she takes it. she takes it on so emotionally
negatively that she she goes to the shop and
she's just endlessly putting on snacks in front
of wench at the shop just kind of like buying
more and more sweets and she kind of like hasn't
let her go at wench because she's just angry
at the world she just takes herself off to the
sofa and kind of like stuff herself with a chocolate
and falls asleep there and now it's like well
magna look what you've done to your mum because
you keep getting into trouble at school and you
keep doing all this kind of thing and really
it's larry's fault that his mum's feeling that
way because he put it really quite forcefully
down. But in terms of emotions with Yutle, Saxa
definitely is the one that seems to be able to
use them for her own gain, whereas Fjord is trying
to explore emotions on a mortal level because
of course he gets involved with the other teenager,
Grie, which especially kind of like during season
one, I thought that was a really interesting
kind of switch. Because kind of like we're seeing
Magni trying to kind of like get into the Util
family or go against them and then at the same
time he's got a friend who's allying with them
out of their own relationship and their own emotion
he's got to kind of like deal with that and I
think he does deal with it to a degree quite
well although of course in season one the big
thing that struck out for me is how when they
find that Magnet is getting a problem that they
realise he is taking on the powers of Thor and
he keeps kind of like he knows of the old world
as they kind of like taunt him with during a
really bizarre hiking trip up a mountain where
Fjord's butchering something very meaty looking.
Kind of like it's it's for your not veto says
well, why do we let the system deal with him?
It's gonna get psychoanalyzed He's gonna have
to go to treatment and therapy and be socially
excluded That's a lot worse than what we could
physically do to him with your axe dad kind of
thing I thought yeah because in modern society
it is very much psychological suffering more
than physical suffering and combat and injury
that we suffer from like and of course the utils
kind of like are a mix of that themselves. Speaking
of a mix, making the point about the idea that
the kind of giants are the ones that have problems
accessing emotion and the gods ones almost too
much emotion and thinking about Lawrence in the
middle of that and sometimes you do see him in
this very strategic use of emotion for manipulation
but then when he's actually full of need that
goes out the window and he's not very strategic
you know and he did he does just kind of need
things, so whether it's Jens, the boyfriend,
or family from his blood family. And I feel like
in that kind of the mercurial nature of the character,
that sort of fits as the, he stretched between
the worlds of the giants and the world of the
gods, but also yeah, between emotion and strategy.
Obviously he's my favourite character. Goes without
saying, he's everybody's favourite character.
But he's also this character of contradictions,
isn't he? he's constantly contradicting who he
is either through gender or through his relationships
or through you know what he wants most of what
he wants he has no idea what he wants but he
does he does know that people are stopping him
from getting it somehow and that it's somebody
else's fault um i was thinking about his his
um his child the teenage pregnancy oh yes we
need to get that the tapeworm that it's changed
from Sleipnir in the myths to the World Serpent
and I was wondering why that was and I wondering
if it was just as simple as like a horse with
eight legs is quite silly, whereas a massive
serpent thing is very disturbing to give birth
to. So it's kind of constantly present and you
can't see it, whereas you had Sleipnir. you are
galloping through the path people go well that's
weird but this lurking menace I think is really
good and I suppose it goes with that idea of
the water being poisoned as well and poisoned
by a monster as well as by the heavy metals or
whatever the the pollution was what I was thinking
about sorry you're slightly breaking up for me
I don't know if that's No, I can't quite hear.
If you keep talking, Joanne, it'll come round,
don't worry. Yeah, it's probably me. I was just
saying that it fills the cycle of rebirth and,
you know, it's the Ouroboros, it's the snake
with its tail in its mouth, which is actually
the visual representation of this story and where
this story is going. Does that make sense? I
might have been kind of garbled before. Well
I think that makes sense because it encircles
the world and but I guess it also that brings
an image of self -destruction to a degree as
well that actually all these characters are very
self -destructive and I feel like that speaks
to the teen drama element as well because obviously
so much of teenage life is creating problems
for yourself that you didn't have to begin with.
It's actually quite an interesting folkloric
motif isn't it that quite often you get a little
serpenty thing and you in some myths you put
a piece of gold underneath it every day and it
grows bigger and bigger until it's eating two
oxen a week and it's a real problem or you as
in the story the lambton worm you catch this
tiny thing and you throw it in a well and it
gets bigger and bigger and the idea that I mean
Lawrence's tapeworm is disgusting enough when
he's keeping it in his bedroom but the idea that
once it's out in nature, plus, as you were saying,
the heavy metal elements that are causing this
kind of really unnatural growth. I think it's
one of the ways that the environmental storyline
and the mythic storyline, and the kind of weird
teenage psyche storylines all come together very
nicely at that point. It was a real moment when
I went, yes, yes! And the grits element parallels
another one of Loki's children. So you have Fenris
for kind of getting bigger and bigger until it's
too big for Asgard. And I like it. They have
kind of combined all three children in one in
different aspects of the story. Yeah, and it's
all quite next to Loki. How are you? he has these
connections to all these destructive forces.
I mean, without Loki going off with Angroboda,
those children would have been there, so it's
kind of... he has a lot of connection to what
ultimately topples the gods and everything with
them. I think I've got on my note from episode
three in season two, Lauret's asked the teacher,
who is quite a common character, he has quite
a mainstay. I quite like him, although I did
get sad when he lost his beard. He literally
says, does Loki give him birth to the world serpent?
and asks that does that make him in fact the
first transgender figure in mythology which I
thought it's like yes that's a big kind of like
EDI flag right there and it can kind of like
make so much sense although it's interesting
that in this particular world of Ida that's what
they're being taught that Loki gave birth to
the world serpent so they have definitely adapted
literally within the education to make what then
happens fit. That is that is the theory. um but
I was thinking about his his I mean it tends
to use the show tends to use male pronouns for
like Lawrence throughout I think unless they
change yes yeah um and I feel like the kind of
actual interior gender identity of Lawrence is
never fully spread you know um spelled out or
kind of question of various expression gender
expressions from Lawrence and you never find
out really what who Lawrence is for them themselves
you know And I think that that is so appropriate,
especially like Lourdes calling himself mommy,
like when he's talking to the serpent. Oh, beautiful.
I also wanted to, like, I really found it interesting
how, how Lourdes really is so dedicated to the
serpent in season three. Yeah, like, so we always
see, we see Lourdes as kind of like an angry...
character like he kind of comes into the story
very very angry you know typical you know moody
teenager um and he always has this feeling of
of being an outsider um and throughout you know
season one and season two we see him be rejected
quite often and so when he finds that Vidar is
his real father he really embraces that and for
from Magni's perspective it can be quite from
the outside it looks quite manipulative in some
ways and um it causes a few problems and in the
end like Vidar does reject him but then he accepts
him again and it goes through this cycle and
so when season three comes around and I feel
like Lauritz has come into himself more as a
person and as as his his queer identity um he
Very much shows the serpent full acceptance.
He's not a he's afraid of it, but he keeps showing
up for He brings him food and he's constantly
like nurturing the serpent and calling himself
mommy and I just found that such a nice like
Parallel or a mirror to how he feels in the first
season where he feels like nobody nobody really
wants him He's treated differently people see
him differently He calls himself a free at one
point and it's only his own mother who tells
them you're not a freak But there might be a
reason you feel different and I love I love in
season one how he Is just kind of almost like
in the background for a lot of it, right? he's
like hanging out with these people hanging out
those people never like quite fitting in but
like when he is useful to them, he is accepted
and embraced. And that is like so, mwah, Loki.
I love what they did with that. against people's
will. So when he joins the giant's dance, which
I think is one of my favourite scenes in it.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. He's not invited. You know
what I mean? He just feels it and he claims that
identity in quite an aggressive way. Honestly,
I really found that interesting. They don't push
him away. They let him dance with them. Yeah.
But it isn't kind of like, come on now, join
us. It's more, oh, you're here. We can't deny,
you know. They recognise something, don't they?
It's the thing. I think the interesting thing
about the way Lawrence develops is that he's
developing alongside the serpent inside him basically.
I mean there's a whole of this throughout the
whole of season one there is this standing joke
that he's always eating what's wrong with him.
He's always eating snacks and then you realize
that he's eating snacks because he has a tapeworm
and the tapeworm is going to become the mid -gun
serpent which is hilarious enough as a story
arc but there is also I mean if we put my psychological
hat on. There is this idea that Larry has a hunger
for something and he does what it is. This hunger
externalizes as the serpent and then he feeds
it. So is it a hunger for affection? Is it a
hunger for being accepted? Is it for something
else, for power over a people? And eventually
he lets it go, which psychologically is very
pleasing and in terms of the arc of that character
is delightful because you can see that it has
paralleled his uncomfortable adolescent phase
and followed him into adulthood where he can
let this go and properly start being himself
having gone through a number of identities and
ended up as mother and then ended up as well
basically free from both sides which is absolutely
you know, what we would hope for, for that character
who is a delightful character in every way. Yeah,
because he does introduce him to Wotan when Wotan
finally gets his awakening after the CRS. Unfortunately,
he is killed off. And thinking back to kind of
your introduction and Louise regarding Lord of
the Rings, it suddenly made me had a mirror image
of how kind of like Bilbo and not Bilbo, the
Hobbits? No, Frodo. Frodo! Sorry, it's been a
while since I've seen the films, let alone read
the books. Frodo and the hobbits and kind of
like the ranger and the elf kind of like escaping
the Balrog and they kind of like lose Gandalf
because Gandalf is effectively their sea arrest,
he's shepherding them to do great things, but
the sea arrest and Gandalf are both claimed unexpectedly
and taken away out of the picture and so the
heroes are left to try and work things out for
themselves, which I think was rather apt. But
also Odin's rejection of Florence is really nice
because in the mythology they're blood brothers
in a kind of mythical past that we never really
find out why. But actually increasingly as the
story goes, the stories go on, they're alienated
and obviously eventually Odin sends him to punishment.
So I guess we kind of start from that point of
view in Edda. like we're already at the kind
of it's very nearly the end of the world and
has rejected Loki this isn't a good thing you
know. Well, the word betrayal keeps coming up
so many times when I look over the notes that
Becky made to season three in particular, but
also the summaries for season two. Lauret says
Magna has betrayed him, Magna says Lauret has
the yurtle say he's betraying them. No, they're
betraying him and so on. And Joanna is absolutely
right to celebrate the way that he finds his
place in by the end. And as both he and Magna
step into their adult identities, and Magna throws
away his comic books, you can see how when fans
online say, will there be a Ragnarok season four,
you go, have you understood nothing here? It
can't happen. Well, it could happen to a bunch
of other kids, I guess. It starts again. I guess,
yeah. There's certainly a strong set of episodes
that have the strong kind of like father and
son theme going on because of course Vidar and
Lauret's getting along and kind of like Magni
trying to work out his new brother relationship
but then of course Fjord and his relationship
to his family and of course with Vidar. There's
Grí and her father because of course that's simply
mixed because Grí's father is terminally poorly
because of the work he did for Fjord's father
in the factory, that kind of there's a straight
line there. But then there's a fortunate series
of deaths because Magni does end up killing Vidar,
not in quite the climactic way that you'd thought.
It almost happens accidentally, so to speak,
but that was because Magni was trying to protect
Larritz. Gris' father sadly commits suicide because
he decides it's just the best way to go, and
so both Gris and Fior both lose their father,
and then the whole complex Magni then feels upon
having claimed a life in this battle having taken
that first step he's been speaking about battle
for ages he gets Mjolnir made because of course
he does not always do this alone dear viewers
he does actually get some allies the CRS does
unite him with one other god S which is Freyja
in the form of Iman who is um a teenager of Sri
Lankan heritage, she was adopted but raised in
Norway, so it's another kind of like outside
of a nice cultural mix of, well anyone with godly
powers can come from anywhere, but it's just
kind of nice, and she's got very strong suggestive
powers, very strong stuff. I love how she's like,
oh, I got these clothes for free. I got my dentist
treatment for free. I kind of got on the bus
for free. I just have to blink and everyone's
for free. And I'm just like, no, you do not use
your powers to get things for free. We're in
a war here. We've got to fight the giants. And
she's like, well. I guess. She's kind of like
very carefree about how she doesn't have the
social complexities or responsibility that Magni
for some reason very strongly feels, I guess,
especially with the Laureates connection. Well,
I suppose in terms of the goddess Freyr, she's
other to the Asgardians in some ways, you know,
being. Yes, she is. She's Balea, isn't she? And
but I do I mean, sometimes every now and then
in the show, I do think a little bit of misogyny
creeps in because I do feel like the way they've
portrayed Freyr. is quite like aren't women manipulative,
you know, rather than isn't she just enjoying
the sex? You know, it's quite, there's something
about it and I think obviously there's some elements
of like they're contrasting with the old world
and the new and the idea of the giant's sexism
is kind of displayed as bad, but I feel it's
also contemporary sexism in terms of, you know,
the way that the myths are interpreted and some
interesting stuff like the fact that they make
Lauret's as far as I can tell, rather than bisexual.
And obviously in the myths Loki is attracted
to women too. And then they do a bit of a fridging
of a gay to begin the story. And I don't know
what to make of that really. It's just, it's
all those different elements of kind of modern
and ancient and kind of contemporary values.
And I don't know how much is expressing the kind
of values of Norwegian society in the present
day, because I'm not very familiar with it. But
because it does feel like the the utils and the
fact that they're a very kind of local family
is quite interesting. It's not a kind of Elon
Musk situation. It's not a billionaire from elsewhere.
It's a homegrown wealthy person. So it's a bit
more feudal. And I don't know if that's more
common in Norway. I think there is a really interesting
counterpoint there between the tradition in Norway
is patriarchal and quite conservative with the
new. and the liberal which in Norway is also
very strong and so I think as in a lot of Germanic
countries there is this this dual nature which
is sometimes in opposition partly because the
tradition has been so monolithic for such a long
time and I think you're right it does reflect
some of that which to me is really interesting
because it's not just about the generations it's
also about the community and how the community
perceives itself and why the community agrees
to be ruled in effect by this powerful old family
and there is a sort of sense of thus it has always
been from people who might possibly know better
but who obviously don't. So there is this idea
that these youngsters are pushing all the boundaries
and they're not always getting it right but something
needs to give. They don't want to leave do they
and I think it's very much sort of emblematic
of isolated Norwegian field communities where
there's only one industry in town and you have
to work in that industry and recognize it from
our own kind of post -industrialization. Either
you work in the supermarket like Turid, the mother,
or like Venker or Turid manages to get a job
in admin back in the company but the company
is the only game in town and if you don't want
to be part of that then you have to leave. And
it's very much the kind of story that you find
in a number of Scandinavian things. I've just
been watching The State of Happiness, Likaland,
which is about the oil industry in Stavanger.
And oil, you can try and do the fishing at the
same time, but the oil is the only game in town.
And the current true detective, Snow Country,
said in Alaska, it's all about the mine, the
mine is poisoned. So this idea of industrialisation
which brings wealth but also poisons the environment
and you have to live with it, you can't undo
it because it will destroy the community. It's
a really powerful myth that runs through these
stories with a kind of mythic supernatural base
I think. It's interesting that they've actually
matched it with the school stuff because in season
one Gris and Magniate, well originally teamed
up with Isolde before she sadly dies and is the
catalyst for a lot of things, have to write a
paper on life in Edda and that's kind of like
he gets inspired by Isolde's kind of like very
rebellious protesting kind of like I'm against
the whole power structure of society kind of
thing she wants to topple them over and he tries
to counter that but he does get pushed down by
systems in kind of like even like because ram
wife of the company owner is henrys to the school
so she's also in a powerful position she can
say no we we allow free speech but what you're
actually doing is just a bit worrying concerning
and then they're given loads of psychiatric labels
and having to seek counsellor and they basically
use the system to push his protests down and
of course in season two they've now got to write
a report and norse myths told to put myths in
a modern context quote they were the actual words
i thought Are you literally metering, you're
kind of like yourself, this series. Just kind
of thinking about that and how it's not just
about putting the myths in a modern context,
it's also a local context. So you have that idea
of the giants are bringing about the end of the
world, which could mean climate change in the
macro scale, but it's also local pollution. And
that idea of, you know, kind of the personal
and the general kind of combined. As I do with
almost anything I bring it back to Buffy thinking
about how there's a line about you know every
teenage girl feels like it's the end of the world
if they can't get a party and obviously in Buffy
it literally is the end of the world and how
those kind of overwrought teenage emotions are
both about high school in general but also specifically
that you know Norwegian teenage experience of
small town and I really like the point you were
making Caroline about the the fact that these
communities exist like this and they do have
these issues. It was reminding me of Kate Beaton's
graphic novel Ducks, well graphic memoir, which
is set in Canada, which is about kind of that
idea of the only game in town, the oil field
that destroys but also is the only option for
making money. So yes, there's kind of, because
there's never really a suggestion that the people
Will rise up and overthrow the utols at least
at the start, you know, like it takes the gods
to Like that, you know like that touch Peter
And even then a little bit of a small town this
creeps in after Vedar dies and people start to
be more sympathetic toward the utols like even
when You know the the boss at Edda Grillen like
is giving your every stuff and Magna's like what
what is happening? I mean like they obviously
aren't lacking for money They could pay, but
they're just giving them free stuff. Magne tries
to correct that by carrying his hammer, because
he does... Oh, the hammer is another interesting
one. His arrogant arc, let's say. This is Thor
portrayed in a way that many people would never
imagine Thor being portrayed, and I quite like
how... To recap for dear viewers, he had Iman,
aka Fright, and manipulate a local mechanic into...
making what he imagines Mjolnir to be having
studied various videos, images on Google and
his laptop. um and of course he suddenly learns
that when he throws it nothing happens he throws
it very far because he's got very strong arms
his muscles just keep getting bigger and bigger
i don't know how he does it quite literally as
an actor you just must have been jimmy the whole
the whole acting series um but it doesn't come
back and that's near when unfortunately they
lose the serious when she goes oh it's the most
powerful weapon in the world you can't just make
it there's an old fire you need to do this but
that's as much as he learns and yet somehow he
does work out that the old fire is deep underground
under the actual chemical factory site itself
and him and Wotan and a person with dwarfism
from the care home where Wotan resides and I
think Iman, definitely the mechanic than any
man as well, they all infiltrate and break in
under the guise of environmental protest which
I thought was rather clever keeping that in mind
as they were going and the things Magni does
with a hammer like putting in a feather so it
always flies back to him putting in an arrow
so it always knows who to strike. I thought that's
really clever but where do they get that idea
from? I would like to know. Is it original thinking
or is there something deep in the lore somewhere
about how Mjolnir was made? Because I don't know.
I think it's probably borrowing from the complicated
forging of the... ...is bound, that you put in
these paradoxical and strange elements of sympathetic
magic... ...something which can't be, it's got
the beard of a woman and the roots of the mountains
and so on, and that makes it kind of... it doesn't
look like a chain, but it is a chain. So I think
they've kind of transposed that very cleverly
to these elements that then give Mjolnir these
unseen powers. But yet also kind of from a modern
point of view, a technological point of view,
if you want to retool Mjolnir, as it were, what
things you needed to be able to do and then you
have to think magically in order to put the right
bits in. I didn't quite like that but of course
Mjolnir becomes quite a negative force and influence
upon Manny and I know I've got in my notes somewhere
that there's like a whole string of influences
kind of where is it not season three oh is it
season three no it's season two nope season three
ah there it is episode three season three saksa
influences magni bad influence fjord influences
Jörmungand otherwise known as little s bad influence
set up and that leads into um Thor losing his
hammer in a really wonderful, and I hope you'll
agree with me, kind of a wonderful adaptation
of Thor going fishing for the Hjormungandr, and
going fishing with a giant who does not quite
abandon him as Fjord does out on the fjord, but
he does go fishing with a giant, am I right in
the old lore? Yeah absolutely. But yeah, but
I thought that was rather good and of course
when he like took out the fishing tackle I thought
oh my goodness is he actually going to fish out
the Whirlsirp and he didn't quite do it. But
it was a very wonderful adaptation. And I thought,
oh, they're actually using canon, kind of like
canonical scenes that Ive and I, from my very
small limited reading, compared to you lovely
ladies, are familiar with. And the other myth
that I think that I did slightly adapt, or at
least pay homage to, is when they try and get
Laurix to go back to the Yuttles to get the hammer,
because of course Fjord then takes the hammer.
They make Well, the utils actually, because they
work out what Laurits is doing, they make Laurits
dress up as Fjör, which is, I thought, oh, that's
a kind of twist on how Thor in the mythology
has to go to the Thrym's wedding dressed up as
the bride. They're making the Loki dress up,
not intentionally, but out of, like, force and
necessity, otherwise he'll kind of get it, basically.
So he's dragging as a man? Well... Yeah I mean
of course I know Genevieve mentioned like he
dressed up as Ram at the end of season one which
yeah that does definitely reflect the gender
fluidity of Loki and how he can like change his
shape to become anyone anything but at least
with Ram he did that out of his own initiative
and own sense of mischief with trying to get
the hammer it does kind of reflect how in the
lay of the room when Thor tries to get the hammer
back he has to dress up for it so it's not Magnin
getting dressed up it's Lauret and that kind
of thing so I thought that was maybe a nice twist
a little bit. It was a lovely twist. I think
everything gets slightly revisited in a different
way from a different perspective. But I think
if we look at Thor's hammer as being his version
of Loki's tapeworm, it comes from something unresolved
in his personality. low -key it's hunger for
something that he doesn't know what it is and
with Thor it's basically rage and we don't quite
know where it comes from but it sort of keeps
arriving from different points sometimes it's
rage about being inarticulate and not good at
school or rage at not having success with the
girl that he wants and the hammer when it arrives
becomes an instrument of this and he goes through
a phase of not being able to control it which
is where he goes through his arrogant arc and
his ugly manipulative arc and his threatening,
weird, angry arc and then finally the hammer
becomes something else. It becomes something
that he can control again and in a way that that's
him coming to terms with that side of his personality.
It reminded me a lot going back to Viking Spider
-Man. comes great responsibility, and he has
to learn that lesson. And it's yet another thing
pointing towards, you know, this is you're on
the cusp of manhood. What kind of man are you
going to be? You don't need a hammer to be a
man, but you're using it as a bludgeon. This
is how you exercise that that rage and that feeling
of pressure and feeling of growing up, but not
really knowing what you're doing. Yeah, I totally
agree. And there's even that scene where he's
sitting in his room like talking to himself like,
oh yeah, I need the hammer to control everyone.
This idea that like, he needs to have this control
is something. The cross -section does quite...
come quite to the fore. She has her own kind
of like downfall in a way. Interestingly, that
Grand Fior decides he's done with the uttles.
They actually allow him to walk out alive. Kind
of like he seems to almost stun me now with the
fact that, oh my goodness, my son has just turned
to me and says, no, I'm no longer your son. I'm
going to become a mortal and live a happy life.
Whereas when Saxa, I think, I can't remember
what her actual crime was. I can't remember,
but they do punish her by literally making her
become a slave. Very much house down. I can't
remember. A lot happens in these episodes. A
lot happens. You can see why they only made them
six episodes in each series. But they keep her
housebound. She gets to do all the manual work.
She doesn't lose her job in the company because
Fjord comes back. He kind of like remains free
to a degree until Bidar dies. And then he gets
a big masculine complex of family authority.
And, OK, right, I must avenge you, father. I
will rise to the fore. kill Magni for you, but
she actually gets that black collar put on. I
thought that made me think of all the collars
that you can find in like museums that link to
Vikings and slavery. I thought that was a nice
little maybe homage to that kind of part of North
history and that Vikings were big slave traders
and if the giants are the bad guys then let's
make them owners of slaves kind of thing. But
I mean also the the idea of being bound in Norse
mythology is very powerful and it's often you
are bound because you are powerful because you're
a threat so she's a threat to the power structure
so like Fenrir is bound, like Loki's bound. You
don't bind the weak do you, you bind the strong
and it's sort of almost a testament to her own
power that they do it to her as well as them
being horrible and humiliating her, you know.
Because their attempts to get the hammer don't
work. So she goes, well, I could always use my
feminine guiles and just kind of like talk to
Manny because he won't kill me straight away.
We've kind of reached some kind of informal truce
kind of thing that we've both got a sibling within
both sides of the family now. She really enables
that relationship he has with the hammer. She
kind of like uses and abuses it very directly.
Like I love how she kind of, oh I've got you
in your bag for your hammered my darling here.
Make sure you carry it with you at all times
so that I feel stronger than you can put my family
in their place. It's like when... teenagers first
get their own bank account, like, yes, I've got
money, I can buy things, and he just goes nuts,
doesn't he? He gets on this power rush, where
then that plays beautifully into when he... finally
gets kind of like that kind of like grown -up
talk that he has with Wotan up on the mountainside
and it does get interrupted because Saksa tries
to come along to disturb things but they both
won't kind of make the killing blow she won't
launch this or did she throw the spear I think
she did but then he's like oh I could kill you
with a hammer right now but I'm not and she just
turns and runs and he doesn't act on it and Wotan
says kind of like Thor isn't Thor just because
of his hammer he also he doesn't just destroy
things he creates life and they have that deep
psychological dive into what is driving Magni's
character and it's all about how he feels like
he let his old down how he let his mum down how
he let the woman the innocent woman that he nearly
gets to kind of like because he does try a diplomatic
way of getting rid of the utils by kind of like
uncovering all their secrets doing proper investigative
journalism kind of thing but of course the utils
kind of get wind and stuff on top of that But
speaking of Wotan, it's always made me chuckle
at one scene where him and his associate who
eventually becomes Himdal. and the rather unfortunate
but not quite good watcher of the gods get arrested
for doing narcotics. I need to try and just see
what Freyja Iman saw because Iman sees the end
coming and she of course scarps and it's really
only Iman and the mechanic that actually leave
Edda and go and make success elsewhere outside
of the whole thing. They use their gifts and
their powers, the mechanic loses his hand when
they try and forge the hammer so he basically
becomes Tia, doesn't quite get bitten off by
a wolf but it was a very heavy door so I'll salute
him for that. and he becomes a famous Paralympian
in Norway which makes a lot of sense and promotes
the kind of disability community and the athletes
that they are and of course Iman becomes like
she goes on effectively a love island sort of
version in this universe and becomes a key influencer
and that kind of thing so she kind of like manipulates
any kind of influence to spread her influence
but I really liked how Wotan at first appears
to be a really big manipulator himself in the
way he says to Magne that if you want to protect
your brother you have to betray him we need that
key to go and make a hammer so you can then protect
everyone including your brother so I know your
brother told you not to harm the utols but you're
gonna have to because that's the deal kind of
thing because Magne does renounce his powers
doesn't he which is another weird well not kind
of a weird it was it was very original tape because
I'm sure even Peter Parker his moments at all
I wish I wasn't Spiderman because then my Uncle
Ben would have been alive that kind of thing
and I think it's just the guilt even in Vidal's
funeral he's there praying in a church well not
quite praying but he's declaring to whatever
universe is listening like please can you just
stop this now I've had enough I've taken a life
I don't like what you're making me do please
stop and how it all ends with that big lightning
bolt that shatters the window I thought that
was that was dramatically well done hero's journey
there is always a moment at which the hero gets
to choose whether to walk away from the task
or whether to get back to it and to go to the
final showdown so that's basically his three
act choice it's it's at the end of the third
act where he gets to he gets to give away his
responsibility and then take it back again because
you know he's got to And you see it, I think,
in the Thor of the Marvel comic universe, don't
you, that he has moments where he doesn't want
to go back to Asgard, he just wants to stay on
Earth with his love interest and just be a regular
guy, but then somebody shows up as it might be
Christopher Eccleston or somebody and he had
to get the hammer out again. So I think that
sense of, you know, Lord, take this cup away
from me is that moment. Christ goes through in
Gethsemane as well, please don't make me suffer
any longer like this. But to be a hero, you have
to eventually make the choice to go on. Yeah,
you have to reject it. It opens out into kind
of wider hero myths and superhero myths, the
idea of the kind of the moment of giving up your
power, whether that's voluntary or not, because
sometimes it's your power is taken from you,
obviously. So it is interesting that it's on
purpose for him, it's much more of an abdication
of responsibility than kind of an obstacle placed
in his way, he's kind of placing the obstacle
for himself. I've got on my notes that it is
in episode five of season three when Rotan's
having that talk with Magni after they've finally
got the hammer back. And again, that was remarkably
well done because all the gods who've been knighted
are some credible scheme unfolds and they manage
to get the hammer back. And of course, that's
when Laowitz gets dressed up as Fior, as a decoy
to get the giants to get away. They don't quite
manage it. Wotan is actually the remarkable one
that bops Saxon on the head when his staff comes
here and takes the hammer back. As soon as this
man has got the hammer, he just walks off muttering
sweet nothings to his hammer and ignores absolutely
everybody else. That would hurt if I was in that
group. I would have chased after him and said,
what are you doing? But when he's having that
talk in the woods, he says these words, with
special powers comes special responsibility.
So it is very much, he literally does, literally
does. And of course, as well as Kiwi, I've got
that, let's say Kiwi, he is a fun character,
becoming Himedal because they go through the
initiation with the strange kind of like clawed
orb thing that the seeress has. and gets given
a whistle, his version of the Gjallarhorn. Jenna,
Lawrence's love interest becomes Balder because
he is the only one that says can we not just
fight, can we not just sit and talk to them because
there's four of them, there's more of us, it's
not going to be pretty, do we really want to
go through with this? and of course it's Laura
who says yes but if you're Baldr that means you're
going to die. I was just going to say speaking
of Jens, speaking of Jens, can we talk about
the ending because I almost screamed when that
whole sequence started with the arrow. Because
like Louis mentioned earlier, I was like, OK,
we're going to fridge our gays again. That's
just what's happening. I was actually pretty
pissed when they revealed that Jens was Balder.
I was like, he better not die. I'm going to be
so mad. I always wonder if they fridge the first
gay to make us believe they do it to Balder too.
That is a good point. We're capable of it. But
maybe a last minute reprieve. Well, I think part
of it was I thought it was a really great push
back against the concept of predestination. The
fact that you can break the cycle if you if you're
motivated to do it. And I was thinking, okay,
this is gonna go one of two ways. I really hope
that it's going to go this way, because otherwise
the answer will be you can't break the cycle.
But you can, it's not necessarily comfortable
to do it. It takes you into very uncharted waters.
But on the other hand, this is progress. This
is so that you don't have to go through the whole.
whole thing over and over again with different
peoples in the same incarnations that you've
actually learned something and you can take it
forward and so this this was why I mean I know
a lot of people had real problems with that ending
because it felt weird and unresolved but actually
it was supposed to be to me because otherwise
the whole of that cyclic narrative ended up meaning
nothing. Though I think it was also about acknowledging
the tension between the mythic and the real and
quite allowing you to situate the story in one
or the other. There's potentially that idea that
maybe he was schizophrenic or had some kind of
visions, but it doesn't come down on one side
or the other firmly. And I quite like that because
it's always been about the kind of porous nature
of myth and real life. but I like that idea of
the breaking of the cycle and perhaps there's
an element that in order to break the cycle of
the past you have to treat the past as fiction
you know that the values of the past are not
true anymore and so that by kind of citing the
mythical element in fiction it allows you to
kind of go on in the real world with a new myth
whatever you're making up a new truth and taking
the positives out of the old stories I guess
the things that help you grow into the kind of
person that you want to be yeah without necessarily
accepting this sort of polarization of good versus
evil, or as Joanne says, that you're just doomed
to repeat the same steps over and over again.
And I, when I was watching the final episode,
I was called to go and eat my dinner just before
the last 15 minutes and I ate my dinner down
thinking oh no oh no what's gonna happen I can't
bear it all these people I like so much oh no
and then I was very pleased by the way it resolved
the ending but at the same time that then after
that it was hmm but I have questions what was
real or what was not real of what we saw and
Did the people who died really die? I guess they
did. Vidard certainly died. Isolde died. Merit?
Fed apparently to Jermungander by Vidard. I guess
she died in a road accident or something. This
kind of alternative reality becomes, if you start
putting pressure on it, I think it might become
quite difficult to live with. But as it is, since
you have that resolution at the end and you can
go, okay I'll take that and now I'll move on.
I think I was seeing it as the the mythic and
the real kind of departing after a certain point
so everything that happened before that point
did literally happen but after that point it's
sort of a bit more open to interpretation so
that anyone died in that final sequence was fine
but if you died before that then you just died
you know. Yeah, I sort of thought that we were
seeing glimpses of a multiverse with a number
of different potentials being played out in different
ways with different interpretations onto them.
So you could basically pick your ending in that
way. I love that. And I quite like that. I think
it's quite an audacious way of resolving a series,
but it also opens up to personal involvement
from the viewer, which I think is quite essential
while we're talking about something that's that
you know that as you say it's skirting the mythic
without actually reenacting it fully. And I like
the idea of it kind of being a kind of filigree
or superimposition of realities and you kind
of yes you say you can pick which reality you
want to be in or you can sit uncomfortably between
the two and feel slightly confused. Having spoken
to you all it's made me think that in terms of
how we talk about how it's a high school setting
and it's about identity and finding yourself
obviously in episode five of season three they
reach an understanding they say okay we're not
going to do this anymore I put my hammer down
I won't use it you put your spares down we adapt
the new we go forward that we all live happily
ever after kind of thing and so they're kind
of like the giants are deciding not to be follow
tradition follow the law old law follow the old
world kind of thing they're good after these
are sacks it gets her power for your um he steps
down but he doesn't get Rebecca, I don't think.
No, I don't think he gets a new love interest.
She's gone. Yeah, because she left very heartbroken.
She was very much like Juliet, heartbroken. And
of course, Ran just carries on being the schoolteacher,
no great change for her. Magni just kind of like
gets past his grades and succeeds, and so does
Lauritz. And now it's kind of like he's settled
in his tight entity. Everyone welcomes him. There's
no judgment, no anything. And of course, he sets
Little S, okay, Jörmungandr, off into the deep
blue sea, okay, you go, you go, you live your
life now, Jörmungandr, you can't fit in this
glacier, this fjord anymore, go and live your
life. But how does one say goodbye to the character
of Thor? And I think the only way Thor can depart
is through his comeuppance against Jörmungandr.
And so when Magni comes across the comics and
revisits the whole events of Ragnarok, he's effectively
going step by step of pulling that essence of
Thor out of him in a way. I think kind of like
he's taking Thor out of his identity by letting
Thor have that climactic end, do what he was
to do according to canon lore, and then... he
is now just Magni he's almost like letting so
he doesn't really kind of like try to keep Thor
alive he just does it but it of course I can
understand how it confuses a lot of the viewers
thinking oh my goodness okay they're now actually
are having this climactic ending what's going
on because you're getting flashbacks to the Ragnarok
scenes the flashbox the more clapping in the
hall and saying oh congratulations class of 2023
off you go live your dreams kind of thing but
it also relates back to his treatment of I think
it's Signe. Yes, when he's under the influence
of Sarga, she gets very, very badly treated,
dear viewers. That is one way you do not treat
your girlfriend, you do not kind of like not
officially dump them and then go off with someone
else. And so he's probably dealing with a lot
of complex issues, writing that kind of like
finding out how to deal with the relationship
with a girl, because it certainly appears to
me that he's never had that before. Whereas Lars
is probably the more kind of like relationship
confident compared to Magne. So that's what I
think. But I can understand it did kind of like
A -calls for season four, but also equal kind
of like what was that kind of thing? Well on
Reddit, which I was looking at today, a lot of
people were saying they should have finished
with episode five of season three, that they
agreed they weren't going to do this thing. And
that would be that. That would be pretty anticlimactic.
I can see that they had to find some way, as
you say, of tying off the storylines. And I think
your suggestion of kind of, we don't need this
anymore, that Thor is banishing, as you say,
Becky and Magna's life is really quite powerful,
even if it does then lead to questions about,
yeah, they all are living happily ever after.
kind of, except for the dead ones. But what was
that we just saw? Well, that's what you have
to go and take away and sit with it, I think.
I think what Becky was saying about... Oh, sorry.
I think what Becky was saying about Thor... Oh,
sorry. God, I hate teams. Go ahead, go on. Louis,
do you want to go first? OK. Now I've forgotten
what I was going to say. Okay, have you frozen
or? I was just going to say that the whole thing
with Thor and his journey, I think the reason
we all felt it was slightly incomplete is probably
that the clue is probably in his name because
they chose not to name him Thor. or something
that made us think so he's actually so he's gone
through the whole of Thor's journey and he's
now been reborn as Thor's son and this makes
sense when you look at the fact that Magni has
daddy issues throughout the whole thing he doesn't
know his father he doesn't know himself he goes
on this this mythic journey to find himself and
finds that he's actually not his father and that
he can be Magni and I think if you if you read
it in that way it becomes a more a more satisfying
ending because yes he's going off into the unknown
and and he's left behind this this mythic baggage
but it's also progress forward which is why i
think they gave him that name in a very particular
way for it for that particular reason because
that is actually does magny survive the rebirth
i can't remember in terms of yes he does but
we don't know anything about what he does yeah
i think it's very much um It goes back to the
hammer being kind of a symbol of his adulthood,
his manhood, because at the very end, of course,
like he's graduating, he's coming into his adulthood,
and he's leaving behind his comic books. And
it's very much of a sense of, okay, we're leaving
behind these childish things. And it all gets
tied up with that theme of, I'm an adult now.
and I'm Magni, and this is what I'm going to
do with my life, and I can put all of this behind
me, and I know who I am now. And so in that sense,
I was very much in two minds of the finale. I
really disliked it in terms of storytelling.
I really wanted it to be real. And it still is
real, the same way all myths are real. It's a
story that tells us about ourselves. So I just
really, I found it that I could accept it a bit
more, the finale. I kind of agreed. There's a
bit in the poetic header though, isn't there,
about the sons of Thor and the sons of the gods
finding the discarded... golden gaming boards
of Asgard and I thought that scene was absolutely
about that. I thought okay this is them finding
the toys that their parents played with and wondering
what they were for and then moving on. I mean
to me it was a very moving symbolic depiction
of that, putting aside those things and going
okay they're not for me, I'm going to have something
of my own. Yeah and that sort of sit down by
the Fjordside restaurant altogether there was
very much like going back to the hall at the
end of her spell, the end of Therese's prophecy,
and remembering the old days, but now we're ready
to move on to new, all those possibilities of
a new beginning with adult life. Yeah, and when
Isolde appears to Magni at the table, that, I
really teared up, I really loved that moment,
because back towards the beginning again, the
cycle, and she vanishes, and that really is kind
of, the gateway of like okay I can I can put
all this behind me now I'm starting over Isolde
was real and now she's gone and it's okay yeah
but she's kind of with me yeah yeah Okay, well
thank you so much. I would love to talk for hours
and hours about this with you all, but we all
have lives to live and unfortunately we need
to let our dear viewers go so they can go and
watch. Season one, season two, season three,
it's all there on Netflix. We do strongly recommend
it. There are lots more things that happen that
we haven't touched on. We haven't spoiled it
too much. and so many other characters, and I
really appreciate all of you joining me today
for another Valhalla Conversations on Ragnarok's
Netflix series. Thank you so much, ladies. I
really appreciate it. Thank you for inviting
us, Becky, and thanks for making me watch it
as well. Thank you. It's been great to see all
of you. Thank you very much for being here too.
Yes, till next time.