Oh. and welcome to a very long titled panel but
it's covering a lot so it's got a long title
and this title is The Twice -Crowned Queen, The
Kingmaker and The Prince Without a Kingdom or
a Throne, potentially, to be seen. And this is
all in relation to three fascinating characters
that have been recently revived and slightly
rewritten. to a great extent in some cases in
the Netflix series Vikings Valhalla which is
focused on the 11th century conflicts and throne
swapping and throne taking etc in between Norway
Denmark and of course Anglo -Saxon England at
the time and a bit of Normandy too. The characters
involved are Godwin Earl of Sussex or formerly
as Wessex, sorry, I'm getting my timeline a bit
confused according to Netflix's wonderful interpretation
of history. Emma of Normandy, who is of Normandy,
but she married one king, but then married on
to a second king and she actually gave birth
to two kings of England, so she's got quite a
lot of weight in the English lineage on the throne.
And of course Harold Hardrada, but he's not Hardrada
in the series because he hasn't earned that great
title yet, he's currently just known as Harold
Sigurdsson. i .e. the son of Sigurd. And his
wonderful adventures and that kind of thing.
And I'm delighted to say I'm welcomed by three
greatly respected and much adored guests on my
panel. I have got authors Justin Hill of Shield
Wall and Viking Fire. Do go buy them, they're
great books. I've also got author Patricia Bracewell
who's written a wonderful trilogy about Emma
of Normandy starting with Shadow on the Crown,
another great series. Please go buy it. And wonderful
historian who's just finished another book and
published a new one as we speak. Sharon, I'm
gonna get your name wrong again Sharon please
correct me. Is it Connolly Bennett or Bennett
Connolly? Bennett Connolly. Right I wasn't sure
whether to believe the text on my screen at the
time because I got it wrong last time you guessed
it I do apologize but thank you for correcting
me. You don't want to know how long my name is
in its full entirety and everyone gets it confused.
These three wonderful people have joined me to
discuss the latest series of Netflix Vikings
Wellhalla. It's got its second season out. It
came out in January and it follows a lot of these
three characters. A good 50 % is Harold Sigurdsson
stuff with another 50 % Godwin and Emma kind
of stuff. But we're here to help you, dear viewers,
whether you've seen the series or not, to learn
the truth. and the truth is far better than the
fiction. Trust me, it really, really, really,
really is. Unless it's our fiction. Yes, because
it's your fiction. I mean, their fiction, their
fiction is a lot better as well than the series.
A bit more truthful, if not say a good lot more
truthful, more respectful for the actual history
that occurred. Because Netflix has a wonderful
thing. It's a bit like Harry Potter in that.
the unbelievable happens in that characters that
were dead at the time are alive and kicking and
getting muddled up in other people's timelines.
It's a bit like historical Doctor Who. Everyone's
mixed up. No one's really on the right planet
or timeline of existence at all. So to begin
with, I think we should start with one of the
characters that many people probably don't think
of that much. Patricia, you may well think, oh,
that might be Queen Anne, but actually I think
it's Godwin of Wessex because everyone knows
his son, Harold Godwinson, who became the Anglo
-Saxon king. You had to face off Hadrada and
then face off William the Conqueror. I nearly
forgot his name. My memory is a bit adult, but
it's holding. But how Godwin became his position
at the royal court under both Ethelred, famously
the Unready, and then of course under Canute
who became Emma's second kingly husband and thus
she became Queen twice over in my opinion. So
we actually have in our panel Justin Hill who
wrote a wonderful book about Godwin Shieldwall.
Would you be able to give us maybe a brief explanation
of Godwin's position within Ethelred's court
at the time? Yeah I'm not sure he has much of
a position in Ethel Redd's court. It's good to
know. I mean I think Godwin is mysterious. I
mean a lot of what we're talking about here is
quite mysterious because the sources we have
often don't tell us the information we want.
They are often kind of written maybe a hundred
years or more after the events and they're looking
at the events in the sense of kind of looking
at events that happened as instruments of kind
of God's will. So they're explaining things in
a way that show that God's will was enacted upon
the people. The Battle of Hastings was a judgment
upon Howard Godwinson, for example. So our sources
are kind of hazy and sometimes misleading. So
my kind of take on Godwin is largely from Frank
Barlow's book about the Godwins and him looking
at the sources and kind of, kind of guessing,
but very informed guesses. And we have to sort
of think our way back into the state of Ethelred,
the Inredis reign, where England or kind of a
Wessex kingdom has united the various parts of
England and that... that kind of kingdom is slowly
being worn down by a series of Viking invasions
with Kings of Denmark getting increasingly centralized
and powerful and coming over in ever larger armies
with a change from just exhorting Dengel from
the English kingdom to Spain forbid deciding
he's actually going to conquer England. And in
this kind of mess and melee, English, what I
think is quite interesting is kind of the English
and here again we're kind of limited by the language
we use and that what we think of English is not
necessarily what they think of English. English
is a collection of kind of kingdoms that have
been united and within that you get many different
peoples or tribes if you like. You have the West
Saxons, the South Saxons, you have kind of Dengel
which has been heavily influenced by the Danish
settlers from the previous century. and all the
kind of loyalties to the English throne get kind
of tested. And what is, I think, really impressive
is actually how well England stays together.
We think of these Danish settlers in the Dengel,
and the Dengel is kind of the Midlands of England.
It takes a lot for them to kind of go over to
Spain Fortbeard. And so in this kind of in the
latter years of Ethelred's reign, essentially,
you have Ethelred is not fighting for the kingdom,
Sveinforthbeard or Cnut are going around the
country and exhorting oaths from people otherwise
they're going to have their their lands devastated
and their halls burnt etc and so you have people
kind of switching sides continually in just a
kind of mess of civil war really and some vendettas
and from this kind of this mess Ethelred is kind
of was always inept And his kind of younger son,
Edmund Ironside, or the letter becomes no Edmund
Ironside, eventually kind of rebels against his
father and starts to wage war against the Vikings.
And from this kind of chaotic mess, Godwin appears
and we don't really know where he comes from
or why, but I think there are hints of who he
is and very slightly. The explanation is that
his father is a minor South Saxon fame called
Wulffnoth, Wulffnoth Kill, which translates directly
as Wulffnoth the child, which I kind of thought,
how would you translate that? I kind of thought
Wulffnoth the bad. Younger. Yeah, kind of, he's
kind of, he's kind of a hero in some sense. He's
got a kind of a nomika or nickname. So Frank
Barlow's theory is that he's been one of the
more successful feigns in defending his lands
from the Vikings. And I think he appears in Anglo
-Saxon Chronicle in 1008 or 1009 when there's
a big gathering of a naval fleet at Sandwich,
I think. And in the kind of civil war, Walthmoth
is accused of something. We don't know what exactly.
He persuades 20 crews to run away with him. And
then the rest of the fleet go in pursuit. and
as he's sailing in his own kind of waters, he
survives a storm that the rest of the fleet does
not. It's kind of scattered and shipwrecked and
the whole effort of raising this huge fleet is
kind of wasted. And the link between Wolfenhof
killed and in Godwin is in the will of Ethelred's
eldest son Athelstan who dies before Ethelred
and in the will he mentions that he returns the
manner of competent to Godwin, son of Wolfenoth.
And so this is probably an estate that's been
confiscated since Wolfenoth was exiled and then
ends up with Godwin. And so from this kind of
mess, Godwin appears. And I'd love to know what
you two think, Sharon and Sharon, of where Godwin
comes from. Well, I agree with what with what
you're saying, I think that he was probably part
of Edmund's entourage, maybe Appelstein's entourage
at first, and then Edmund's. There's a story
that in 1015, Canute was crowned in the South,
one of the bishops, supposedly. crowned him king
and when the south submitted to him in early
1015. And I was wondering if perhaps Godwin was
part of that group. This was before Ascenden.
And I went back and I looked and Godwin signs
more charters in 1018 than any other elder man
at any other thing, including the Danish ones.
So he was part of Knut's entourage, followers,
from very early on. And it may have been because
of what happened down there in southern Wessex
in early 1015. What do you think, Sharon? It
sounds quite likely, and it may well be that
he had been part of Athelstan's household, but
then when Athelstan died, he, you know, went
over to Canoe. There was... Well, Attlestand
died in 1014, didn't he? And Canute lost power
about the same time. So it may be that when Canute
came back, he sided with Canute because... The
thing is, because we don't know anything before
then about Godwin, he might have had fallen out
with Edmund years ago, you know? He might have
been that Edmund and Attlestand didn't get on
at one stage and... God, there's so much that
we don't know that you can be really inventive.
That's right, with that time of history is so
there's so many gaps that it makes it just, you
know. fictionalized writers and screenwriters
can just throw all kinds of stuff in there. For
me, I just have to put either or every time.
Well, it could have been this or it could have
been that. Luckily, I can move it to the reader
to make their own minds up and just give them
all the possibilities or say what I think is
most likely. But with this, we don't even have
enough to say what was most likely. We know that
his dad was accused of treason by Britry but
we don't know what the treason was. We know that
Athelstan left him his father's estate so he
must have got on well with Athelstan and he must
have served Athelstan well for Athelstan to do
that. But what he did between 1014 when Athelstan
died and 1018 when suddenly he's signing all
these charters for Canute. We don't know but
he must have taken sides with Canute at some
stage for him to be so quickly so valuable to
Canute. And this is where Netflix unfortunately
have tried almost to write his story but without
knowing a lot if anything because he was around
in the first season when we briefly ever so briefly
meet Ethel Reddy and Reddy who dies within two
episodes, if not the first one. He's shown to
be some kind of courtier when Emma's trying to
take the control and fend off the Vikings. Unfortunately,
and I'm sorry if I'm going to spoil the spread
you're watching, Godwin was not the enemy. He
did not murder Edmund. He did not betray Edmund
in any way, sense or form. Godwin, according
to history, is quite loyal. He's quite good at
strategic. And I think the one aspect that they
have caught of his character which seems to be
reflecting what you guys are saying is I think
he even says it in the series kind of like he's
a survivalist he's a survivor he does what he
needs to survive um even in the series if it's
killing off one king to befriend another kind
of thing um and I guess if you have had your
family kind of hugely dishonored and your land
and rights taken from you you are kind of like
left politically and socially vulnerable in that
sense. So to have done what he's done to keep
moving in circles, to even get close to being
of good use to any kings or princes -to -be,
that kind of thing, is interesting. I'm glad
you brought up just in about his father and what
he possibly or possibly did not do in terms of
the treason, because he does in the series allude
to it, to his wife -to -be who, I'm sorry spoilers,
gets lobbed again, unfortunately Godwin's setting
a trait, a trait for lobbing off people. He alludes
to it but he doesn't ever say what, he just says,
oh I've kind of like, I want to focus on my future,
I don't want to think about my father and his
past, and oh. We don't know, so he probably,
he doesn't know, so instead of making up something
they just allude to it. Yeah, I guess that one
aspect is true. What we can say about Godman
is that he's clearly very successful because
he manages to stay, he kind of rises very rapidly
under Knut and then remains for the rest of his
life, you know, an absolute power broker in the
country and installs his sons across England.
My hunch with Godwin, kind of just thinking about
the characters, was how does he rise to power?
There's a story and I think it's, is it William
Mansbury who talks about, he saves someone from
a battle and then kind of rises that way. But
my hunch was Cnut is a 17 year old lad when he
becomes King of England and he's a bit like Alexander
the Great who's inherited an army of kind of
hardened, dour, professionals who won't necessarily
want to listen to a 17 year old lad. The Viking
army and the English army have trekked around
England, taking oaths from the same warlords
who promised to support them. So everyone's broken
their Everyone has broken their oaths by this
point. So Canute comes to a country where everyone's
lied to him or everyone has been betrayed him
and he doesn't necessarily trust, you know, the
kind of the big guys upon whom he's, you know,
his own kind of Viking commanders. And so my
hunch was if Godwin stayed loyal to Edmund Dineside,
then that's someone Knute knows he can trust.
And the idea of trust was quite interesting to
me because in one of his first charters, Knute,
when he becomes King of England, Knute raises
the penalties for oath -breaking. So this sense
of oath -breaking or disloyalty is clearly something
that is kind of, is in his mind when he becomes
King in England. I can imagine and I suppose
this is how I came back to season one a bit.
the infamous villainous small villainous than
Godwin in the series Earl of Stryona is a proper
villain compared to how the series are depicting
Godwin they've kind of completely got the role
to reverse unfortunately and I'll always remember
kind of late reading my wonderful books on Canute
about how Canute has Fiona beheaded and say,
well, let's show you how we treat oathbreakers
and those who betray their oaths to their king,
that kind of thing. Here you go, off your head
and off and off your jobs. And I actually cheered
when I read that. Yes, he's finally done it,
because after reading the accounts of how he
switched sides so many times between Ethelred,
then Canute, then Edmund, then back to Ethelred,
then Canute. I can get that how that was a real
big push for Canute to say right everyone's loyal
to me or else. Basically. They seem to be following
a lot of Norman sources want to blacken Godwin
because he's obviously the father of Harold Godwin's
son who's William's major rivals. And so if you
can smear Godwin then you smear his son as well.
That's a very good point never consider that
because of course a lot of the viewers of these
series might not have read much historical non
-fiction or have even covered this period in
any history that they might have had educationally
and of course it all comes from sources all our
educational teaching and all your research from
you wonderful people comes from sources and if
the sources are biased then we're not really
getting to that we're only getting a half truth
if if anything so that's a very good point. the
sources are always biased because whatever you
write you have an agenda so they're always biased
in some direction. Trying to figure that out
is the key. Somebody certainly didn't read the
one that said that Godwin was loyal to Emma.
Oh yes, that's a big thing in season two. And
that brings me actually because of course you
mentioned about how quickly he rose through the
ranks, Justin, because of course in season two
we see through a very almost Beth -style plot
how Godwin eventually obtains the hand of Geetha.
Now you ladies may be able to clarify because
of course in the series she's referred to as
Cnut's niece. I don't think she's a blood relative,
is she? No, no. No, I thought not. Her brother.
is married to Cnut's sister. So in one of the,
I can't remember which one, but in one of the
sources she's referred to as Cnut's sister, but
she isn't. She's Cnut's brother -in -law's sister.
So she was part of this wider kin group. She
was part of the wider kin group. So it was bringing
Godwin sort of into that family grouping, but
not blood. And so that... you know, the line
of the hierarchy that leads you to a kingship,
that wasn't there. She was not a blood relative.
Because of her relationship with Cnut, Cnut's
sister's son, who is therefore Githa's nephew,
does become King of Denmark. So, you know, they
are semi -royal. And it's not what you know,
it's who you know. She definitely knew everybody.
So it was definitely a step up for Godwin to
be able to marry someone like Githa. Which is
why the television show which has him proposing
marriage to one of Emma's handmaidens is utterly
ridiculous. He would never have done that. He
would have wanted to marry up. He would have
wanted to marry into the elite, into the nobility.
Although I did wonder if they did that, because
there is a suggestion that Githa was his second
wife. And there was this woman, was it Daira
or Thura, who apparently was a slave trader.
And in some of the chronicles, it suggests that
they were married first and she died. And then
he married Githa. I've never seen that. It's
not certain. And there's a story that they had
a son, him and his first wife, who rode his horse
into the Thames and drowned. As you do. And I
think the matter of one wife is also a bit more
fluid at this time. Yes. There wasn't strict
monogamy. No, I mean Knut famously had two wives,
one Emma and then one Elgie Fu of Northampton.
Harold the second did and Harold Sigurdsson,
Harold Hardrada, he had two wives at the same
time as well. It seems to be a common theme throughout
the 1066 story, two wives at the same time. Well
given the era and troubling times that these
people all lived through, I can understand the
men wanting to put as many eggs in as many baskets
as they could to kind of strengthen their survival
kind of thing. It's okay, so that's good. We've
clarified there wasn't a direct niece, she was
further further down the family tree, but I guess
that's where the creative license is allowed
in order to kind of like make Godwin's big dream
of having his firstborn son eventually become
King of England, and he does say this in the
series Justin, he's very open. to his now -dead
fiancé about his political ambition. Because,
of course, if you tell the dad that, they can't
tell anyone. I don't think anyone ever would
have had that ambition at the time, though. I
think that would have been so far above him.
He would never, ever have expected one of his
children to become King of England. No. And it
wasn't his eldest son, was it? Wasn't Svein his
eldest son? No, Svein was the eldest son. Well,
he clearly didn't because he has his daughter,
Mary. edward the confessor so his his kind of
his dynastic ambition is through his daughter
not through his sons yeah yeah he was looking
at having a grandson on the throne which didn't
work out very well considering edward the confessor
And this brings me right round to our second
kind of like intriguing character, the twice
crowned Queen Emma, because of course Emma must
have been in the same circles, groups, possibly
the same room as Godwin during this time, because
if Godwin was around with her first husband's
sons, then she would have observed him doing
this and doing that. And then I often wondered,
obviously following watching season two, whether
historically Emma had any input to Canute say,
oh, you want to keep that one, he's a good one,
as in like who to keep in court and who not to
keep in court kind of thing, or whether it was
just purely Godwin's own merit and efforts that
helped him stay, because of course Emma was trying
to help Canute balance the shifting, what's the
word I'm looking for, shifting power control
between like the Vikings and the Saxons. Yes,
sorry, go on. I think it's entirely possible.
When Canute married Emma in 1017, a big part
of it was to get the English on his side, to
show the continuity and to get the one through
to support the English, you know, to give them
a reason to come over to his side. you know if
he's married to the Queen of England then everybody
else has a reason, has an excuse to actually
go oh actually yeah okay then I'll swear to him
and it gives them a way out. Yeah it's hard to
appreciate what an extraordinary marriage this
is because she's probably a good 10 years older
than him, has two sons already by the Ethelreddian
ready and he kind of, you know, can pick any
noble woman, you know, around and he picks Emma.
So it's really quite an extraordinary marriage.
What does she pick him? That's what I like to
think. He sent for her. It says an extraordinary
amount about Emma that Canute wants to marry
her and that her marriage is so important to
him. So, you know, through that we know that
she is really quite an extraordinary character.
She is, absolutely. And she saw herself as a
peace weaver. That's how she presents herself
in Encomium, that she's the one that actually
brings peace to England through this marriage.
And I believe that that's what she believed.
So it's important, and she would have known all
the... She would have known the hierarchy. She
would have known how the administration was handled,
the laws. We see her signing charters, you know.
So she was deeply involved in what happened in
England in Knute's reign. Yeah. And you could
imagine her actually negotiating with Knute when
he said, I want you to be my wife and her saying,
well, Ethelred didn't let me do anything. I want
to be able to, you know, you want me to bring
these English nobles with me, then I want to
be able to have a say and at least be listened
to. And then you find out that when Knute dies,
his son Harold, Harold Harefoot, has to send
his troops to Winchester to collect the treasury
because Emma was so important to Knute that she
had to let him hold the money. Yeah. Just a great
way of demonstrating how important Emma was to
Canute's reign. I think one of your questions
was about that marriage, Rebecca, and it was
not unusual for a conqueror at that time to marry
the widow of the enemy that he's conquered. That
was not unusual. Macbeth. Yeah, back then it
was, I think it probably happened in Scotland.
Yeah it did. Macbeth married the widow of somebody
who - Brooke, he married Brooke. Hill Congaine,
who miraculously somehow got burned to death,
possibly at Macbeth's hand, and then she married
Macbeth. So if I'm often trying to wonder kind
of like what and you guys may or may not know
depending on all the dates of your research kind
of like what the age difference might have been
between Emma and Godwin kind of like were they
kind of like parallel in age or were they one
slightly older slightly younger because of course
Godwin was around as a young man, I presume,
at the same time as Athel Fenn and Edmund. But
of course, Emma was quite young when she married
Athel already and ready. So I don't know whether...
Emma and Godwin probably were, I would have thought,
between five and ten years of each other. I don't
think there was much of an age difference. I
think it should be older than him. Yeah. Because
she's been King of England since the early...
2002 she becomes Queen. She was probably about
13 or 14 then. They died within a year of each
other, didn't they? She died in 1052 and I think
he was right around that second time. That's
a tragic note. Well hopefully they were a lot
more abacable towards each other than they are
in the series. I think for a certain amount of
time their interests would have been very similarly
aligned. I think in many ways they're both survivors
and they're both kind of powerful people who
are good at staying in control. And, you know,
many times they were very similarly aligned.
I mean, they were both behind Cnut and they were
both kind of stalwarts supporting him. They seem
to have, they weren't aligned during the reign
of Harold Harefoot because Emma wanted Hirst
and Hath a Cnut to be king and Godwin was on
Harold Hereford was the King actually here in
England, so he supported Harold for a time. I
think he supported Canute at first, but then
when Canute didn't, sorry, Halford Canute didn't
come back from Denmark to claim the throne, he
decided he'd better be in his best interest to
be with the King who was actually on hand rather
than the King over the water. it would have got
a bit complicated for him if he carried on supporting
Harthacanew. He looked like the enemy as far
as Harold Harefoot was concerned, so sensibly.
He was stuck between a rock and a hard place
there. They had to make a decision, and once,
you know, once Harold Harefoot was accepted as
King of England, there was nothing that he could
do, and of course Emma's sons coming over from
Normandy only added chaos to do what was going
on, but we're not there yet in this story. I
can't wait to see how they handle that one. I'm
not sure they will. You know, one thing about
the show is that they don't, Emma had two children
by Canute. We don't see those kids anywhere in
Valhalla. She would have been busy getting, you
know, raising two young children. So we don't
see that at all in this show and I don't know
how they're going to handle it farther on. Am
I correct in thinking that when she married Canoop
didn't her sons, well I say sons, because Alfred
obviously sadly had his eyes put out and then
died, but Edmund he stayed in Normandy when she
came back and then eventually married Canoop.
But of course in the end of season one the two
sons are still around there, they're not, both
are alive and both are in Yeah, well, in season
one, they go with their uncle to Normandy and
then we don't see them anymore. And they're gone.
And of course, Alfred, when he came over, that
was not until after Canute was dead. So both
sons are in Normandy as is their sister, God
give you, so she's there and they're being taken
care of. Meantime, Emma's having two children
by Canute over in England. So, but we don't,
you know, they've been totally forgotten, whereas
Elf Gifu to know his first wife, we see her with
her two sons in Norway, which is where they actually
were. Yes, it's going to be interesting seeing
how Norway eventually turns against Elf Gifu
now that they've finally got rid of Harald's
half -brother, Olaf, and that's another character
that needs a whole other episode to pick. So
this is, you can see why dear Runa, why we're
talking to all these wonderful people to try
and nitpick and unpick the wonderful thing that
is Netflix history versus the real history, which
itself is an equally dramatic tangle and more
dramatic than any series could really do justice
to. So what else were my questions? Let me think.
Let me think of my questions. I've got so many.
I have so many. Where are they? There's one.
So that was interesting. So in season two, Justin,
Godwin plays a bit of a kind of a torturer, a
kind of like bully question. He's got some poor
bloke strapped to a chair having his eyes put
out saying, so you hate the Vikings. Everyone
he does. Why were you trying to assassinate the
queen? It was a really bad failed attempt on
assassinating the Queen. It did make me wonder,
actually, because you don't often see that in
this particular series, at least, although it
has been, I've noted, depicted quite well in
The Last Kingdom, which is another great historical
series which is slightly better at telling the
truth than this one. Sorry, Netflix, you're just
messing with it too much. How much friction there
might have been amongst population... as the
Vikings kind of claimed lands, claimed titles
and settled and the whole court became kind of
like Anglo -Danish kind of thing, was there any
friction at the noble society level do you think?
Because of course people would have lost sons
in the wars, lost their titles. My sense is that
the kind of the pain of Ethelred's reign really
disenfranchised or killed most of the aristocracy
or the old aristocracy and so in a sense you
have a country kind of coming out of a civil
war situation where the kind of the old elites
have been discredited or killed and you have
a new kind of vigorous and successful Anglo -Danish
aristocracy coming in and in a sense Goddman
is absolutely part of that. I mean He's married
a Danish princess. Look at the way he names his
children. His first children are named Svein,
Harald, Tosti. These are all Viking names. It's
not until Knut dies that his children start getting
English names. So you can see England is the
center of an Anglo -Danish or Nordic a kingdom
and I think a lot of kind of a lot of the great
um scaldic poets come to England because um the
best uh the richest king to who is going to reward
you is Canute so England becomes you know Winchester
becomes the centre of scaldic poetry um you know
you have kind of um you know Danish like Bjorn
comes down to England again so I think this idea
of um friction or kind of racial friction between
Danes and Saxons is really, it's looking at it
in a kind of a 21st century way that I think
is probably largely inaccurate. I imagine that
it may well have been friction, but again, England
had been settled by Vikings for over a hundred
years by this point, a large part of it. And
so, yeah, I think that's kind of artistic license.
Can I add to that? I think that Knut tried to
address that, because some of his first laws
dealt with dealing with widows and their problems
and land tenure, because so many of the elite
would have died. And the letter that he wrote
back to England when he went, I guess it was
in 1020, he went to Denmark, is written in English.
His letters are in English. not Latin, they're
not Danish, they're in English. And so he's trying
to find the wounds of that kingdom. And I think
we have to accept that England was almost half
Danish and half Saxon. And so he's got to bring
that together. And of course, it's reflected
in the elite and the Witan which becomes Anglo
-Danish. Yeah and he was sensible in a way, I
mean people who talk of the English don't like
it but he did put, I think it was four earls,
four of his own people he put in place as earls
in Northumbria and throughout the country so
he basically split the country into four for
government by his people and then everybody else
was under them. So which is you know, it's sensible
you've conquered a land. Yeah, you're gonna put
your own people in charge You know Slowly spreads
down through the ranks Well, they're going to
keep a tight rein at the beginning until people
get used to it With them can use rain it is incredibly
peaceful it is compared to ethyl reds beforehand
and compared to what happens in 1066 knute's
reign is a period of stability for about from
1018 onwards you know he can go to denmark and
deal with denmark because england is secure and
at peace Yeah, I think the idea that it's an
English state that falls in 1066 is a misnomer.
I mean, Sharon talks about the Earls. Earl is
a Viking title that Canute brings in. The symbol
we have of Anglo -Saxon England is the Huscarl
fighting in the shield wall. And again, this
is a Scandinavian name for a kind of Scandinavian
rank that rises during this time. It's an Anglo
-Danish state, really, that falls in 1066. Godwin,
you know, Harold Godwinson, again, he's a Viking
name. His mother is a Viking and he probably
grew up speaking Danish as much as English. Yeah,
and you have to look at England as well. It had
only been England since 938. 937? I can't remember
when the Battle of Brunhumbra was. 937 or 38.
I only watched The Last Kingdom the other night
and I can't remember. I only watched it this
morning. You know, it was only the 930s that
it was all united as one kingdom, so it was still
very young as a country. And even that didn't
last, and even that didn't last out under Athelred,
it wasn't until Edgar, Athelred's father, became
king, that it was completely united. So that
was like nine, I don't know, 940 or something,
970, I can't remember the dates. It was later,
it was later. I wanted to point out that, you
know, for the average person in England, you
know, your little guy, Unferth, for him, his
loyalty was to his immediate lord. And so whoever
was way up on top, as king that didn't impact
you know England was still quite tribal it didn't
impact him except for maybe taxes and when he
had to go fight when he was called to battle
but still that was coming from his lord he whoever
the king was didn't have that big an impact i
don't think on the average joe and i have to
say where i live i actually live in the danelaw
so we'd have been probably quite happy that canute
was on the Because this is the thing that a lot
of viewers might have forgotten that. Yeah, that
just like over 100 or so years previously, isn't
it, or maybe 200 years previously, the Dane law
was formed so half of England already became
Danish to a degree. It was like a test run before
Canute then came over. And of course Canute is
sadly the forgotten King of England. You don't
ever learn about him in the history books at
school, or I didn't anyway. But that's just my
own personal educational history. So some people
might have done depending on the generation or
what school. they went to. My son did in primary
school, he did about Swain Forkbeard, because
I remember when he got home, because we lived
near Gainsborough and Swain Forkbeard died in
Gainsborough, and Gainsborough was the capital
of England when Swain Forkbeard was king, so
they made a big deal of it in school. My son
came home, he was about eight or nine, and I
said to him, so when did Swain Forkbeard die?
Expecting to get 1014, and I got, when he fell
off his horse, Oh, the innocence of children.
He's quite right. Well, Knut was really a mover
and shaker in not just in England, but in Europe.
I mean, he went to Rome, he was hanging around
with the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope, and
I don't think he gets enough credit for how significant
he was towards the end of his reign. his daughter
with Emma married the son of the Holy Roman Emperor
and if she had had a child that lived, which
she did not, if she had lived longer and had
a child, can you imagine the Holy Roman Empire
and Denmark and Norway and England? That would
have been all one empire. It would have been
enormous and I think Knut had that in mind when
he arranged that wedding. Yeah. I mean, if we
all And I'm going to explain this to you as well,
dear viewers, if you will pause and think. If
Emma and Canute had sons and no other sons from
no other previous marriages, there was no feuding,
no civil war, no political throne swapses. Who
knows what kind of dynasty they could have founded?
It would have been a whole other world. Time
and present day would have changed a lot. since
then and it's a shame almost that it didn't get
to happen I think but I'm biased because I like
baking so. Half a canute didn't marry and neither
did Harold Harefoot and Edward the confessor
married but might as well not have yeah it's
odd that such a the child children of the generation
just didn't marry or didn't have heirs it's really
strange. It is it's it's Tragic. And of course,
we don't quite know why Arthur couldn't die.
I think he died suddenly from an illness of some
sort, but we don't quite know what the illness
was. Am I right or am I thinking of something
else? There are theories that maybe there was
a strain in his genetic line because his brother
died young and his son died young. We just don't
know. And his son by of Gifu died young and so
did so did Harold Harefoot. So what was that
all about? I mean I suppose if you're writing
fiction and and you want to you know tell up
an interesting story you have someone poisoning
or you know something going on but the reality
is life then was you know medical care was not
very good so it could have been it's just odd
that all the children died in their 20s. I wonder
if they had something like a hereditary TB or
something? Yeah, that's what they think. It was
some sort of hereditary strain maybe in the...
Certainly Sven didn't have it and Knut lived
to be what, almost 40, I think, something like
that. That's young. I mean, Edward Confessor
lived quite a bit longer. Unfortunately. So,
not to forget the other candidate that we're
discussing about, which is of course Harald Hardrada,
which everyone knows him by that name, but this
wonderful, I say wonderful, this series, which
is wonderful to some degrees, is telling the
wonderful adventures he had before he got the
nickname Hardrada, aka Hard Ruler, which he obtained
when he became King of Norway. Justin, of course,
you've written about him in your much beloved
Viking Spirits, one of my favourites, I must
say. Could you please give us another wonderful
introduction into Harold Sigurdsson's origins
and how he became to lose the throne of Norway,
initially, to a degree? I think, having spent
kind of, you know, trying to particularly know
that when you're researching a novel you spend
a lot of time kind of thinking about the characters,
thinking about their motivations. and what and
why they did things. And Harold Hardrada, I just
kind of, I grew to be more and more interested
in him as the story went on. I think actually
he, we talk about Cnut being kind of undersolved
by history and history lessons. I think Harold
Hardrada as well, I think he's almost a kind
of Renaissance prince before his time. I mean
his career is just extraordinary. He's kind of
a poet king, and he's a king whose kind of poetry
is not famous because he's king, it's famous
because his poetry is good. Unfortunately, his
poetry is scaldic, which doesn't translate to
kind of modern sensibility. So we can't enjoy
his poetry in a way that people of his time did.
I mean, I always like to kind of give the brief
introduction to him. you know he's kind of dragged
wounded from battle at the age of 15 he survives
he crosses the keelback mountains between norway
and sweden um and kind of the face of winter
he makes his way down to um the swedish capital
and and kind of norwegian vikings would typically
come west to ireland and england um and he's
forced because of knut he's forced to go east
to take the russian road and of course russia
doesn't exist yet it's kind of a nascent state
in in what is now ukraine and kiev but uh the
russian road is never kind of the easy one he
heads east through these um these river systems
that head down um towards constantinople He ends
up in Constantinople. He ends up the leader of
the Varangian Guard with the kind of the elite
shop troops of the Byzantine Empire. He leads
them in the invasion of Sicily. He's by the side
of the emperor in the reconquest of Bulgaria.
He's possibly lover to the emperor, so he's certainly
involved in kind of royal machinations. He's
imprisoned. He's set free by a kind of a... a
lucky revolt. He escapes eventually from Constantinople,
picks up a Russian princess on his way back to
Norway. And this is all before he's 30 years
old. I mean, he's just the most extraordinary
character. And then when he's in Norway, again,
he found Oslo as the capital of Norway. He reforms
the Norwegian church. He's probably bringing
in Orthodox priests and monks into Norway. And
then in 1066, he decides he wants to be King
of England as well. So just the most extraordinary
character. And again, I think if you're a betting
man, your money would have been on Harold Hardrada
winning the English throne in 1066. He was by
far the most dangerous opponent. He's the only
one as a professional soldier. Harold Godmanson
and William the Conqueror, they're kind of a
military record. was largely skirmishes, whereas
Harold Hardrada really was a hard -bitten professional
soldier in the kind of crucible of the Mediterranean,
fighting all kinds of battles. He survives it
all, he gets to England, and Harold Godmanson
is very lucky to win at the Battle of Stamford
Bridge. So that's the very quick synopsis. Well
that's all wonderful, and if you're watching
Dear Viewer, whether you've seen season two or
season one, that gives you insight and a bit
more about what may come potentially in season
three, which is slightly exciting because it's
an area where many people don't think of when
they think of Vikings. Because of course for
season two we see Hardrada escape wounded from
a battle, not from the battle with Canute, it
was a battle with his half, with Olaf. There
you go, right of license. He didn't quite go
over the mountains, but he did go with his friend,
Leif Eriksson. Don't ask me why he's involved
in this. Again, creative reasons. In a boat without
supplies, without a sail, just them in their
furs and two oars, all the way to Jaroslav the
Wise in... I've forgotten the name of it. Yeah,
thank you. One of the two, both. Both of them.
Wherever the roost is at this point in history.
So yeah, so that was interesting. They missed
out that entire wonderful adventure of him even
getting to the roost at all. They just kind of
like saw him on a ship and then plunked him in
furs and with a bow and arrow. They also forget
that by this point he's a teenager rather than
a grown man. Yes, both him and Canute are at
the same time. Harold Harada is younger than
Canute. Yeah, which should be the other way.
I think how Dryder should have been a baby in
season one. There's that wonderful scene in season
one where they go down the waterfall. The ship
goes, they've got this huge gnar, this trading
ship, and it goes down this waterfall. The waterfall
was there. There was that horrible waterfall
and they had to poach the boats around that waterfall.
They never would have made it. going on. They
didn't do a single portage. Where was the portages?
I've read so much about boat portages between
kind of like the fur trade and the slave trade
down all these rivers down to Constantinople.
They didn't do any portaging. Surely he would
have known that because his uncle would have
told him oh yeah you can't go down there without
portaging, hire a crew and some boats and off
you go. But now he decided to eventually... In
the fictional telling of this series, Justin,
he buys a lot of furs and decides he's going
to go down to Huston Hill as a fur trader and
sell all the furs and then buy an army that way.
Of course, that didn't happen because he had
to bail all the furs out to get the boat over
the waterfall. I don't know why they couldn't
just put them on the grass, ladies. Why did they
have to chop the furs in the river? I'm sorry
if it was like some symbolic unloading, but they
should just put the furs on the river. They didn't
have to dump them in the river. But yes. I wanted
to ask Justin, Was Yaroslav his uncle? In -law.
Yeah. He was his in -law, wasn't he? Yeah. Olaf's
wife's sister was Yaroslav's wife. Yeah. Olaf
spends quite a time in Yaroslav's court and then
comes back to die at the Battle of Sticklestead.
Yaroslav's wife Ingegird was originally betrothed
to Olaf. It broke off so Olaf ended up marrying
her illegitimate half -sister. As with Githa,
the relationship is there. Maybe it's just easier
to call them niece and uncle as they have done.
Well, I don't think that a lot of people realize
the connection between, say, the Vikings and
the Eastern European regency. For example, Knut's
mother was the sister of the King of Poland.
So you have that connection, that east -west
connection. When I was writing Silk and the Sword,
that was when I discovered how many links there
are to Eastern Europe with the Anglo -Saxons
and the Danes, because Harold II's daughter marries
Jaroslav's son or grandson, I can't remember,
Vladimir II Monachmar, whatever his name is.
but you know there's all these links and then
of course Yaroslav's daughter Anna marries the
king of France so you've got these east -west
links all through the 11th century. Yeah and
actually the Viking world is far more an eastern
world we know obviously through England and Ireland
and Iceland but you know far more of the kind
of viking exploration um was going down the eastern
you know through russia was now modern russia
and ukraine uh and the kind of the amount of
silver flooding back into europe i mean there's
a there's a kind of theory that you know the
medieval economy takes off because there's so
much silver coming being brought back by the
Vikings selling slaves into the Middle East that
it just lubricates the whole European economy
and changes it fundamentally. That's one thing
I kind of like was slightly pleased to see and
not so pleased to see in the sense of that slavery
is a bad thing but that they did acknowledge
a small nod to the slave trade that goes to go
down the Naipa River and the river systems to
come out in Opel in that Harald's ship had half
a thousand three Irish red -haired slave girls
as well although sadly not all of them survive
that particular river trip. Unfortunately on
this river trip Netflix does something which
I'm quite ashamed of and that they have a tribe
of, well I say tribe, a group of warriors approach
Harold and his rather odd collection of companions
on this river ride and they call them the Rangie
or the Rangian. But I'm thinking, oh, that can't
be the same Varangian Guards that they're going
to meet in Constantinople, surely. So I'm hoping
that that's just some creative license in, because
surely there weren't other people known as Varangians
there, or is that where the Varangian Guards
came from, that they came from a certain collection
of men or that have chimed in? I think they were
more like the French Foreign Legion, weren't
they? They came from everywhere. Yeah, I mean,
they changed that, I think. They're originally
a kind of a Viking force and it's not really
sure where the name comes from. I think there
is the kind of one of the most likely theories
is that it comes from the word for vow, which
is kind of rang. So they're kind of warriors
held together by a vow. So. I think they. they
were probably, I'm trying to think if that would
mean they're, you know, they're Varangians before
they actually get to Constantinople. I don't
think so, but when they're in Constantinople
that's probably the name they're known by. And
of course, yeah, you know, Sharon's right, they
are kind of a French Foreign Legion -esque, largely
Viking in the time of Howard Ardrada, but after
the Battle of Hastings, a lot of English huskals,
you know, flee England and end up fighting in
the Varangian Guard, it becomes very English.
That's interesting. I think it's still part of
Istanbul, it has a name that refers in some way
to the English, so very interesting. I love the
story, we're not there yet, I'm hoping they do
put it in the next one, of Harold escaping from
Constantinople in a ship. a chain across the
harbour yes is that a real thing and did that
really happen or was i wasn't entirely sure whether
to believe it or not when i first read about
it it's in the saga yeah so it's not necessarily
true but you want it to be because the idea of
making a ship he's done so much by that point
it's believable really well the thing was real
wasn't it they did have that chain they did have
a chain yeah yeah if you can see it in the top
galley top capi palace in istanbul they have
a link from it so um i think it probably is true
um yeah he must have done it somehow because
they wouldn't have released the chain for him
so he must have gone over some kind of seesaw
motion maybe to get over, wait for a high tide.
High speed rowing to rise the ship up and then
crash back down again. Well they did a good job
of showing Olaf pull down the London Bridge so
hopefully they'll do the same. They've just got
loads of people with axes raised up. Just to
rewind a bit, when Harald Sigurdsson got to his
uncle Jaroslav, in the series it seems like quite
a brief stay, but he did stay for some years,
did he not? Did he not serve in the military
though? Oh yes, I think. Yeah, it's hard to say.
Well, he went to war with Jaroslav. I think he
leaves Norway when he's like 15 years old. um
he's bound to you know just kind of grow into
a man and establish his own reputation as a kind
of a warlord um i would say kind of four or five
years um and in that time uh i mean he is in
the fur trade and it's kind of um all the the
tribes um the lives i mean um what's now lithuania
estonia and latvia um they're all pagan um And
I think basically the Vikings are extorting tribute
out of them, which is, you know, kind of brutal
and warlike and uses threat intimidation to get
furs out of people. That's how they made their
money. Yeah. In the series as well they've also
introduced the Peshnegs, which of course the
scene is like the big obstacle blocking trade
going up and down the river, and in the series
you have the staff that says, oh no one's going
down to Constantinople because the Peshnegs are
causing trouble again. He doesn't outright ask
Hadrada to solve it, Hadrada just happens to
stumble into a very equally confusing, confluited
plot involving meeting one of the Peshnegs, kind
of like warlords, and hung by his chest. with
hooks from some ropes I don't know why the writers
put that in ladies that was just I'm like yes
we know he's a tough strong viking he really
didn't need to boast about it and then get put
to the test but he did in the script. Did you
kind of like learn through your research and
obviously write in the book how much of a trouble
the Peshnegs were and how much Harold had to
help in any military campaigns to control them,
stop them taking control of the riverways or
anything like that? Yeah, the Peshnegs were a
Turkic horse -mounted people who lived in, you
know, the steppes and they were absolutely terrifying,
I think, to the Vikings because they employ,
you know, much like the Huns, you know, a kind
of nomadic way of battle that the Vikings were
not particularly suited to fighting at all. And
so we're talking about the portages and the portages
where the Russian rivers don't meet up, you know,
I think Don and the Volga. 70 kilometres apart
and they're now linked by a canal but in Viking
times if you wanted to cross between those two
river systems you would have to you know drag
your boat out and then there were established
portages where you would you know basically drag
your boat or have teams of people you pay to
drag your boat across and the Peshneg were you
know mounted you know group who would prey on
those you know Vikings or those groups and plunder
them. Yaroslav's grandfather I think had gone
to battle with the Pechenegs and lost. And there's
a story about how the Pecheneg king used his
skull, had it plated in gold and used it as a
drinking vessel. So they were, you know, they're
terrifying people. And again, I think there's
there's remains in Ukraine of kind of ramparts
and bulwarks that were built during this time.
they have a name and I can't remember what it
is now. But clearly Yaroslav was attempting to
kind of define, you know, one of the great problems
of this kind of this area of Europe is that there's
no natural barriers. And so this is why there's
been so many kind of wars that spread between,
you know, Russia and Poland, because it's very
hard to define a natural barrier. And clearly
Yaroslav was attempting to define kind of his
civilized state from the nobanic areas of the
Pechenegs. Well, you'd be pleased to know that
they do use skulls in Harold's encounter with
the Peshnegs. The warlord sat on a throne made
of skulls, all intricately carved. I don't know
how they managed that without breaking the skull
bone, but there we go. And Hadrada in the script
boasts that, oh, you don't have a Viking skull
because the Viking would be drinking your skull,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very bravado. Very
full of bravado. So. When, of course, Hadrada
does get down the river, he survives military
training with Yugoslav and the Peshnegs, and
he gets to Constantinople, does he outright automatically
sign up to the Varangian Guard? Does he have
to do any training with them before he gets that
title? Because I was never sure how quickly or
smoothly he became, because he got to quite a
high rank, did he not, in the Varangian Guard,
Justin? Yeah, he leads a thousand Varangians
in the reconquest of Sicily. It's kind of hard
to know. The saga is a little confused and it
kind of mixes dates. But there's enough, there's
enough, you know, kind of veracity in it to,
I think historians assume that his kind of, Verengengar
did many different things for the Byzantines.
And so probably his first roles would be as kind
of shock troops on boats or kind of the navy
who were they were kind of clearing muslim pirates
out of kind of the greek islands essentially
and i think you know his career is just as a
professional soldier he you know he has the advantage
of having royal birth which would have you know
certainly helped him along within the the vorangians
who are mostly vikings and you know success in
battle he was you know he was a big guy um um
you know he's kind of image people six foot tall
and he gets you know six foot of ground from
harold gobbinson he's a big guy with of royal
birth who's successful and charismatic and he
you know slowly rises up i think so you know
success and an example and so in the reconquest
of Sicily he's leading a thousand and that's
the you know the killer shock troops of the Byzantine
Empire, the Roman Empire essentially. I remember
right didn't they say something like he fought
30 or 40 battles as a Varangian just just in
his time in the Varangian Guard I mean that's
pretty impressive. Yeah and to survive them.
Yeah, you would have thought after 20 you'd have
defeated everyone that there was to defeat. He's
often taken plunder and I think you had to, you
know, he gets later accused of not giving enough
plunder to the Byzantine emperor and he's swirling
away up the river system to Yaroslav. He does,
he does, that's right. When he returns to Norway,
the sagas say something like, you know, he's
the richest king of Christendom, you know, he
is, you know, extraordinarily rich. uh he basically
kind of buys Norway off you know off Magnus or
half of Norway off Magnus um his nephew uh so
he's you know obviously incredibly successful
he's squirreling away a fortune um you know away
from the Byzantine emperor and you know and rising
is why I kind of say he's by far the most dangerous
threat to England in 1066 because he is a professional
soldier in a time when in Northern Europe there
aren't really professional soldiers in the way
that there are in the south because there are
so much more battles to fight. That's interesting.
Well you think the training for King Harold II
was to attack Wales? Harold had rather has been
fighting in the Varangian Guard for years and
Harold II had a couple of seasons in Wales. Yeah
no exactly. Did Harold die at Stamford Bridge?
Yeah. Yeah, he did. He was one of the ones that
died, yeah. Yeah, I drove through it actually
on Sunday, my son's rugby match, and I was thinking
about it. Yeah, so he fights a battle of Fulford
Gate, which is just south of York, and he defeats
the Earls of Mercia and Northumbria. And then
essentially the kind of the north of England
promised to meet him a week later and, you know,
in swear fealty. So he moves kind of a day's
march east of York and a third of his army is
down with the ships on the Humber or the Ooze
and the other two thirds are essentially kind
of feasting and, you know, relaxing. And Harold
Gobinson catch them unawares and unarmored. the
kind of the the army that he brings back with
him the kind of the again the professional soldiers
he brings back for them from Norway to Norway
are there at Stamford Bridge and you know get
slaughtered larger because they don't have their
armour or their army and so Harold Gobinson was
extremely lucky and it again the battle goes
on is we have an extraordinary thing of kind
of two battles that go on all day long and Stamford
Bridge is one of them. and again it flicks such
a huge toll on Harold Godwinson's army that it
kind of it it neuters him hugely for the Battle
of Hastings which is kind of a month later. Yeah
because Harold Godwinson did an amazing march
with all of his men up the country and then back
down the country again. I don't know how they
kept up the pace or the speed but they must have
just not stopped basically. But a lot of them
would have been kind of local troops. So he'll
have a kind of a coterie of kind of loyal men
to him and then the rest will be kind of local
troops he picks up on the way. Yeah. Extraordinary
period of history. It is, I mean, like with the
scenario of kind of like what if Emra and Canuta
lived happily ever after and that lineage carried
on that year, as they say, is a pivotal year
because England could have been Say the same
or gone Denmark or they did go to Normandy in
the end But so yeah, it's a lot of what ifs in
season two we do meet I'm guessing possibly the
potential Empress Zoe, although she's known as
Eleanor Am I right ladies? I'm thinking that
was her name before she was presented to the
Emperor because in the final episode the Emperor
actually meets Harold and his crew of odd ones
on their ship whilst they're trying to build
a sail because they had to get rid of the sail
when they went down the Waterfall as you do.
Oh yes you've got something precious for me and
of course Hyrule doesn't realise it's the girl
wearing the amulet he thinks it's just the amulet
but no it's the girl she's the bride ta -da she's
the new empress and she's like oh don't worry
I know you love me really but I can now give
you the army you always want kind of thing. She
wouldn't have been with Harald for Harald to
bring her to Constantinople. She was already
in Constantinople. She was born and grew up there.
She was the Empress. The Emperor wasn't the Emperor
until he married her. She was the one with the
right to the throne and not him. So it's like,
that was just like, I was trying to work out
what on earth was going on. Yeah, a big little
romantic drama there for you. It was just a big
dramatic drama. Not true. Well, it's also annoying
because the misogyny of it, the bloke had to
be the emperor and they were bringing the girl
to him. And it's like, well, it was the other
way around in this case. When you have an example
of history of kind of, you know, a strong independent
woman. Yeah. Why change that? Why not? Oh, Justin,
you've opened a can of worms because my one beef
with this series is not with Emma's depiction
Godwins or Harada, it's just the fact they had
an amazing Arabic scholar who was a woman and
of course the poor thing died of cancer on the
boat trip. They couldn't just have her survive
and help Leif Erikson continue his great Arabic
studies. He learnt Arabic in the entire boat
trip down, don't ask me how, he just did. He
learnt how to use a compass and a sundial and
everything. I liked her because she was intelligent
and brave and was happy to get nitty -gritty
when it came to a fight kind of thing and of
course they had to just... make Leif more unhappy
by taking away from him. So that's the second
woman Leif Erickson has lost, I'm just saying
that. He's lost a pagan and not a Christian.
I don't know if he's going to go, well not Christian,
a Muslim, sorry. She was a Muslim I think. Yeah,
so yeah. So crazy license, it's good but it can
also be bad. Especially when it's dealing with
things straight. When you have a powerful woman
like Zoe, why? take away her power, why not actually
have her be Empress Zoe? It would have been interesting
to see a powerful figure toy with him like that,
kind of like saying, oh I like you but I don't
like you because I'm Empress, that kind of thing.
She was also much older than him, I think by
this point she was past childbearing age. Yeah
she was about 60 wasn't she at the time when
she married her second husband. and there are
rumours that he helped kill her first husband.
I was going to say he got involved in a lot of
kind of like emperor disposition because then
he had to help blind two of them either either
side of Zoe or was it after Zoe? I can't remember
which way around it was. I can't remember Michael
the fourth was killed in the bath. Oh dramatic.
Well it's so um yeah so Zoe marries uh the I
forget, he's nicknamed the Corker because his
family come from, he's the chief eunuch in the
palace, he has a handsome young nephew and he's
nicknamed the Corker because his family are from
a shipbuilding family and he brings his nephew
into the palace and he gets the attention of
Empress Zoe who then marries him and then he
he stages a palace coup. And he sends her to
a nunnery, doesn't he? He shaves her head, sends
her to a nunnery, and then tries to marry someone
else. And this is when Harold Tartrada's moment
comes, because Harold has been imprisoned at
this point. And the sagas tell us that his brother,
now Saint Olaf, comes to him in a dream. or is
there a dream of a snake? I forget exactly now
but there's some kind of story and Harold is
kind of you know is saved but clear that there's
a palace coup and some of the um again the saga
tells us that a palace woman comes to where Harold
is imprisoned because it's not really a dungeon
it's kind of a it's a kind of barracks really.
and sets him free. And Harold then leads or helps
lead the kind of the storming of the palace.
Yeah, so it's kind of coming back to me as I'm
talking. So when the palace coup happens, the
Varangians are replaced in the palace by a force
of Peshneg kind of children. and so the Varangians
are kind of upset and unhappy. They've been kind
of excluded and so naturally they kind of turn
to Harold Hardrada who then becomes their leader
and the Varangians essentially storm the palace,
free the empress from the monastery and then
the saga, I think the saga doesn't tell us what
exactly happened? It tells us that the emperor
is blinded. The emperor flees to a monastery
to seek sanctuary, and he's dragged out of the
monastery and blinded. And it doesn't say how
much I tried as that person, but I think he probably
was. And so again, in terms of a kind of Norwegian
adventurer, he is the power broker. He put Zoe
back on the throne. and you know blinds the emperor
so he again have extraordinary power that he's
wielding. But then just imagine the next emperor
who marries Zoe, the Byzantine aristocracy decide
okay we can't let Zoe pick you know next handsome
husband we have to pick one of our own to marry
her and just kind of to stabilize the state and
that emperor clearly finds Harold a little disconcerting
knowing what he did to the previous emperor and
so Harold's time is quite short. Oh that's a
wonderful recap because oh he has so many adventures
just wherever he goes like just even his escape
from um Cichlisad is one adventure and they kind
of nod to it in the end of season one with him
fleeing with the aid of another fictional well
not fiction entirely fictional um Leif Erikson's
sister um but yeah He nearly has his happy ending.
Yeah, there's all sorts going on here. The fact
that they've got Godwin as the villain is, the
real is, well, there's lots of untruths mixed
with slight truths mixed with a lot of fiction
and just generate a lot of spicy drama, basically.
But yes. It's been horrible to watch, but I spend
most of my time going, no! And that's not it,
he's not the... She's not there! She's too old!
I think the Game of Thrones was so successful
in that it didn't go for easy tropes and it did
play those interesting parallels of powerful
women, older powerful women, and how they use
their power and the way they exert their power.
I thought in a much more interesting way. I always
think with the kind of the history, the history
is always so interesting. If you just stuck to
the history, you'd need a much more interesting
story. I think what they did with Vikings Valhalla
is they, I wonder if they thought they were only
going to get one season out of it. So they tried
to get everybody in the first season. which is
why you end up with Swain Forkby living after
he's dead and can you call him Edmund the boy
when they're exactly the same age? Yes. I just
wonder if they just thought they'd get this one
season so we'd better have everybody in it and
then it was oh we've got another season so although
we did have Harold Hardrada already in it when
he was only a baby at the time we want him in
this one because it's nearer. And we keep saying
Olaf even though he would be dead if he was at
Harold's age, but he isn't because we haven't
actually got to the point where he's supposed
to be dead yet. I sometimes wonder too if whoever
was writing season two had actually seen season
one, because for example the character of Emma
is completely different. in season two than she
was in season one. And of course, they've totally,
you know, changed her personality and her character
and have her do things that she never would have
done. He would not have solid her hands with
that. No, no. Yeah. And the idea of torturing
a woman anyway was just, it would have been abhorrent
to them. Well, you know, part of it is the minutiae
of running a kingdom is not terribly interesting.
And so if you're doing a drama, and Vikings Valhalla
is aimed towards an audience that wants blood
and swords. And so you have to figure out how
to address that. And so the story that they make
up does that. This is what the writers should
have done. They should have just made one season
about the whole Ethelred versus Framespotbeard
and Edmund versus Canute, with a lovely conclusion
like in your wonderful series, Patricia, with
just Edmund minding Canute and having a happy
ending at the end. And then they should have
found another series entirely about Harada from
his teenage exile all the way through to 1066,
because he deserves a whole series by himself
covering every year. Yeah, that would be wonderful.
You know, have one season that's just England
and what's going on there. And then have another
one that just looks at what the Vikings are up
to. And, you know, Harold Hadron is so fascinating.
That's true, actually. And then you could have
a third one in Normandy. Yeah. Exactly. Because
then you have your third series with Edward the
Confessor coming over and then you lead into
2026. There you go, Netflix hires us. We'll write
it for you. We'll write it. And with these two
authors, it will be wonderful. It really will,
because I enjoyed all your books, guys. I mean,
it's what helped me fall in love with characters
even more. And of course. I'm a history nerd
so of course as soon as I read your books I wanted
to read the non -fiction trial. Oh yeah that
really happened and oh they did do this and that
really happened and and this is why I'm hoping
our discussion has enlightened our viewers somewhat
because whether they've seen season one or season
two or both or haven't yet we're helping you
go in with understanding there is a lot of salt
involved but there is some nuggets of truth hidden
in there you just need to unweave it and then
weave it back together again. I did talk at the
school in October after Vikings Valhalla came
out and I was talking to this school, it was
an all -girls school, and I said, right, the
first thing, who's watched Vikings Valhalla?
Forget it. If you not ever. Absolutely, absolutely.
because it's a shame that Emma is depicted the
way she is and that Godwin is depicted the way
he is. Hadrad at the moment is basically a lone
wolf hathrob but he's got no band of warriors,
he's shown no great military skill yet ladies
has he? Not really in any extent no, so it's
going to be interesting to see how they depict
him being worthy of joining the Varangian Guard
when he gets there besides just giving him a
royal title. But that is where season three will
be. It will be set at Constantinople, which,
of course, as we've said, is an area that the
Vikings did go to. Kind of like they did do slave
trade over that way and they've got dirham coins
coming back here. So it's hopefully going to
enlighten a little bit more to the modern audience
that Vikings went all over the world. They hadn't
been to the moon, but they basically went all
over, apart from Antarctic and Antarctic. But
yes, so. That's it. I don't think I've got any
more questions. Have you got any more questions
or points you want to discuss or raise? I do
want to, you know, I'm very curious about what
they're going to do with Leif Erickson because
his name is best known probably of all this group
among the general population and they have him
in a place where he never was and I'm wondering
if they're ever going to send him to North America
now that he's learned how to use an astrolabe.
I'm very curious to see what they're going to
do with Leith. It's clearly a possible future
series extension. Because right now he's in Constantinople.
Yes, he's going east instead of west. He's not
even hit Iceland or Greenland yet. Well, he came
from Greenland, so he's coming from... Becky,
you talk about how the Vikings went everywhere.
If you ever go to Istanbul, you go to Hagia Sophia,
which is the huge church, Justinian's sixth century
church he built. Just an extraordinary building
with a huge dome. I think it's the Al -Aqsa Mosque
now, isn't it? Isn't it one of the buildings?
Museum now I'm thinking of one of the other buildings
then because that used to be a church now it's
a mosque. So there's the Blue Mosque and then
across the Hagia Sophia which I think. Yeah,
it was meant to back into a mosque about two
years ago, so I was in Greece at the time and
and a lot of angry Greeks. Anyway, there's Viking
graffiti in there. So you can imagine some, you
know, board Vikings, you know, choosing their
name. I think it's Halfdan. Halfdan is one of
the names that's been carved into the stone there.
So, you know, the Vikings are everywhere. Extraordinary.
And of course, they went into Iran as well. There's
a lot of, you know, Arabic theorems has been
found in Sweden. Yeah, so the incredible incredible
stories and I think in a sense the kind of the
stereotype of the Vikings as kind of you know
hairy horned helmeted you know folks doesn't
do them justice. They were kind of transnational
and they formed the kind of the modern world
in a way that our kind of our history lessons
which obsessed with the Tudors in the Second
World War and the Nazis you know utterly kind
of disregard and I again I think you know an
extraordinary story um to be told you know to
stick to the facts you know the facts are very
interesting. Yeah I mean as much as I enjoyed
learning about Elizabeth first when I learned
about Emma I was like forget Elizabeth, Emma's
doing it before Elizabeth was even around. I
guess I'm the one who married Godwin she was
incredible she was a really strong powerful woman.
all the way through the 1066 period. You know,
she was still raising rebellion in 1068. Well,
she gave birth to nine kids for crying out loud
in the United States. Holy cow. Yeah. I mean,
I hope they bring her into it properly and tell
some of her story because she was an incredible
woman. When I wrote my Soak in the Sword about
the women of the Norman Conquest, it was like
I expected Emma. to steal the show and then I
started researching Githa and it was like it
took me days to write her story she's the longest
chapter in the book and I used to come downstairs
going right I'm going to finish Githa today and
it took me three days to finish her because she's
like something like 12 000 words long she because
she's there all the way through right to past
1066 she is you know she's in every single part
of the story and all her children survived adulthood
it was quite extraordinary as far as we know
yeah yeah yeah but it is considering as we've
just been discussing kind of like how many differently
needed Zoldaid out because their sons all died
young without marriage or without hairs of their
own well she's the one it's her descendants who
still sit on our throne you know because um it's
from her granddaughter who married the Kievan
prince that came back into the English bloodline
with Philippa of Hanold. And ever since, it's
her bloodline that's on the throne. Yeah, because
I think, isn't it? Harold Godmanson is a orthodox
saint. Oh, is it Edmund? I forget. Oh, no, that's
Edward the Martyr. Edward the Martyr, Ethelred's
older brother, is an orthodox saint. Yeah. And
I still haven't found out why. And he's buried
in the Orthodox Cemetery on the outskirts of
London because the English and Roman Catholic
churches couldn't decide who could have him so
they were long looking. Oh blimey. Here's a question,
is Hadradah buried, I'm guessing in Norway then?
So I think it was originally buried in York Minster
and then repatriated and it was very interesting
when Richard III was found under the car park
in Leicester. I was doing a series of talks on
Harold Hardrada and something very similar appears
to be the case for Harold Hardrada. I can't remember
exactly where he was buried. but wherever it
was was an abbey that was dissolved during the
reformation and is now a stretch of road i have
a kind of photo somewhere a stretch of road uh
in uh in oslo um so he's kind of under that stretch
of road um but fascinatingly um So when I first
came back to England from Hong Kong, it was just
the 950th anniversary of 1066. So I was kind
of at all the battlefields. And when I went to
the Stanford Bridge, which is kind of my local
battlefield, someone said, oh, you know, Harold
Hardrada's descendant is going to be there. and
I was so excited, I was kind of both excited
and terrified and I was terrified because I thought
just imagine if he's kind of you know a weedy
little um you know uh and I turned up and this
guy I was just so happy I mean he's from Iceland
and obviously in Iceland they had nothing to
do for a thousand years but kind of trace their
genealogy and he's you know I'm sure everyone
in Iceland is a senator from everyone but he
was he's got he has this huge sheet of paper
which, you know, he's descended from Egil Skallagrimsson,
the great poet, you know, every Icelandic person
he can trace his ancestry to. And one of them
is Harald Hardrada. And his name was Olaf Fikings
Sigurdsson, I think he goes by. And he was kind
of six foot four. He was wider than, you know,
my armspan. And he told me he had a kind of big,
kind of shaggy, you know, red blonde beard. And
he said that he had been a bodyguard at the Helsinki
summit between Gorbachev and Reagan. And his
grandfather had been Mr. Universe and had done
something in the Berlin Olympics. I don't remember
what, but he was just a giant man. I was so happy
and so excited. If he hadn't been, you'd have
said, are you sure? Exactly. I have a photo with
him and I'm six foot and I look like a midget
next to him. I look like a child. It was just
great. I was so happy. And he was nothing. Well,
of course, we know and they're in Canute's bones
and health Canute's bones are in caskets, aren't
they? It went to the cathedral. Yes. And they
were going under some scientific research or
analysis a few years ago, definitely before the
pandemic. I'm not sure. because she's the only
woman yes they've identified emas because there
is only one woman and it's her so they must be
emas the others are a bit more harder to do yeah
they all got mixed up during the english civil
war but i think the parliamentarians was it that
threw rocks through the window and knocked all
the caskets over and some poor soul decided oh
this bone will go in that box and that bone in
that box and hope for the best But yeah, it'd
be wonderful if they could put their full skeletons
on display and tell more about their connection
really with Winchester, because it was their
base for a good many years during their reign.
And she was a Queen of England, twice. I like
Germaine de Rhone, twice! It's really too bad
that her skull is not intact, because they can't
do a reconstruction, you know, like they've done
with some of the other characters from history.
Well in terms of season three Vikings Valhalla,
we know they're definitely going to be in Constantinople.
We discussed and learned therefore that Elena
may get her name changed to Zoe, but she won't
be living the life of the real Zoe in any way
shape or form unless Hadrada helps her get rid
of her husband by pulling a coup. poking out
his eyes. Spoilers, it might happen. We don't
know what the writers are going to do. They might
do some craziness. Who knows? We know, of course,
that Emma is dealing with Lady Macbeth -Tall
guilt, Godwin is Marita Gita, so whether he does
any more manipulation and wickedness behind the
scenes, who knows? Canuti is back in England
after dealing with the Wens. Did he have to deal
with the Wens? Were they really a problem for
him at any point? oh they were and that's at
least true then that's at least true um because
i'm assuming were the wens bothering norway is
that when he went oh no he went to denmark didn't
he went to denmark to deal with the wens running
denmark i think yes because was that after his
brother harold died and he claimed denmark yeah
because that's one thing as well the series have
missed off that missed off that he had multiple
crowns and thrones going all over the shop because
they've just said, oh he's come over and taken
over England and that's it, he's not really focused.
Plus we've got Swain Forkbeard to eventually
possibly kill off in season three, who knows,
we haven't really seen him in season two, have
we? I know we saw him, we did see him in season
two. He did that sun swap, didn't he, with Olaf,
so he's got Magnus who will eventually indeed
take the throne of Norway because Sven and Ilgefjord
will get kicked out because no one likes them
anymore. We're just telling you the truth people,
just telling you the truth so you're prepared
for when it's not the truth. So then you can
feel our frustration when everything goes wrong.
randomness of leaf ericson and if he ever stops
going west and ever starts heading back east
and how long that'll take him because he's so
far away from everything why on earth they decided
to put leaf in it why didn't they just have a
viking you know a fictional character rather
than somebody who was doing something totally
different at the time. It just seems a tough
thing to do. I think it's just so well known
that they said, you know, they took all these
well -known Vikings and put them in a pot and
stirred it up and said, there, there's the story.
We've added some extra spice. Because of course,
Lee Ferguson is more well known in America than
he is in the UK, because of course, he did find
America 500 years before Columbus did, or more
like 500 years, so many hundreds of years before
Columbus did. I'm wondering if maybe they had
to have him meet up with the lovely Arab scholar
that they then killed off to help have him more
be more clever, be more clever and have more
abilities in order to find that waste because
of course the Vikings would have known of Iceland
and of course he was from Greenland. At the time
of the series presumably his character didn't
know or think of lands any further west so that's
why he's now got his dialy thingy and his compass
and his map reading skills and stuff. That's
my current theory. So then they can all say,
yes, he did find us because he did this and this
and this and then he found us all on the other
side of the world kind of thing. But that could
have been a whole series in itself because it
would have been nice to see Viking life in Iceland
and Viking life in Greenland, because again,
people are vaguely aware of them. But often Vikings,
as a modern sense, do tend to focus on England
and Europe, and that's it. We're like in the
middle. No one thinks I'm looking east. It's
what they did. No one thinks we're looking that
far west. It's what they did. Well, and Leif's
sister went to North America too. She did. And
so what the heck she's doing over in wherever
they've got her in this story. Johnsburg with
the Johns Vikings, which was another very confusing
plot line. It didn't make any sense. But she
only receives a couple of sentences in the sagas,
you know, they talk, she's mentioned in a couple
of them. But she'd be an interesting character
to actually take a look at what she might have
actually done because she was a voyager. Yeah,
that made her a bit of a kind of like a pagan
religious saint slash advocate. Well, she's a
foil to Olaf. She's a foil to Olaf. She's holding
up a big... Yes, they found her there, big climax.
Yeah. I must admit, his death I found slightly
disappointing. I thought being skewered on a
spear through the armpits wasn't that... I don't
know. Wasn't a great epic death. I wanted to
see more bloody injuries to him or maybe his
head lopped off. I don't know. Well, he died
in Norway, didn't he? Yes. Yes, because... Yeah,
we're quite extraordinary. There was a solar
eclipse during the battle. The saga says there
was a solar eclipse during the battle. And we
know from historical records that there was a
solar eclipse. And you can imagine its battles
taking place in a solar eclipse. And I was in
Prague for the last, there was a solar eclipse
in 1999, I think, in Europe. And it was so kind
of chilling. birds will go silent and you're
going to feel the silence and the day starts
to go dark and cold and it started to rain you
know so this happens during the battle um so
uh it made an extraordinary kind of comment again
you know Harold Tartar is there and you know
survives it um so you know fascinating yeah and
this is the thing i think they're confused in
the series because i'm sure there was another
Olaf involved in pulling that yeah because there
was Olaf the tall Yes, Olaf. And then there was
Olaf the... I'm thinking of Thorkell the Tall.
I'm thinking of someone else entirely. Olaf was
king of Nolra. Sorry. I was getting confused.
I was getting their version of Olaf confused
with Thorkell the Tall because he did help in
terms of London Bridge and Emmerich and everything.
But of course, in the series, this very fictionalist
series, it's very confusing. I'm picking all
this. Their Olaf is both alive and not alive
at the same time. Right, anyway, anyway. Gosh,
we have talked about so much, and I hope, dear
viewers, you managed to keep up with this rollercoaster
ride through history and the wonderful characters
involved. I know we focused on three, but we've
pretty much picked out the entire cast because
they all impact on each other. No man is an island,
and indeed, in this great period of time, all
these players move and interact with each other
and betray each other or marry each other or
fall in love and... So yeah, but I really do
appreciate your time joining me for this wonderful
talk. I hope you've enjoyed it. I certainly have,
as you can tell by my big grin. And your knowledge
and insight has been really helpful and insightful.
And I've learned things again that I might have
forgotten or didn't know before now. And definitely
seeing the series in a different light, but hopefully.
We'll have more to talk on season three, which
may come out next year. Who knows? I know they're
kind of like they gave a sneak peek trailer and
showed Harold in some very almost like gold Romanesque
type armour looking out over a sunny balcony
over a nice blue sea. And I was thinking, oh,
I don't know about that armour, but we'll see.
We'll see. So we've got lots, lots to go for.
But yes, thank you so much for your time, Patricia.
Thank you so much for your time, Justin. And
of course, thank you so much, Sharon Bennett
Connolly, her lovely book, The Silk and the Sword.
I was going to say The Silk and the Steel. I
was getting yours and Patricia's book. That's
true. Well, that's why I couldn't use Silk and
the Steel, isn't it? But yes, dear viewers, do
go up these lovely authors and writers and historians.
They've written some wonderful books and it really
will help you learn the real history, what Netflix
is adapting and retelling and rewriting in ways
more than one, because the real history, as you
said, is a lot better. And I will end on the
quote that I knew I was going to find at the
start and didn't read out. So I will do that
now. Where is it? It was this one. Would you
mind reading it for me because my email's failing
me. It's from Rory Mantel and the quote is, as
soon as we die we enter into fiction. Once we
can no longer speak for ourselves we are interpreted.
Brilliant. I think that sums up beautifully what
my aim was with this whole discussion ultimately
and it reflects as well what Netflix are doing
because basically no one can repute them, no
one can tell them that wasn't true. We can only
do what the records say and there's only so many
records and even then the records have their
own biases and problems and just lack of. Sometimes
there's there are gaps which you wonderful authors
put in beautifully and sometimes TV series writers
don't. Brilliant, beautifully. To a degree, to
a degree. It's all a pinch of salt, all a pinch
of salt. So thank you, Davias, for spending time
with us. Thank you, dear panellists, for spending
time with me and putting with my questions and
over eagerness and excitement. And hopefully
we can reunite for season three when it comes
out at some point in the future. But thank you
very much for watching. Thank you. Bye.