welcome everyone. This is a special project of
mine, so to speak, and the title of it is called
A Queen of... Queen? A Game of Queens and Thrones.
Excuse the ad lib there. A Game of Queens and
Thrones because it's been inspired partly by
the huge success that was The Game of Thrones.
And actually, I would like to direct that audience.
to the very real Game of Thrones that was existed
in the 11th century between an equally exciting
huge cast of characters. No dragons sadly, but
that's fine because I don't think we'd still
be around if there were dragons. So this is a
project linked to Norsevember, this fantastic
month of celebrating all things Norse, Norse
culture, Norse history. Norse academic research,
Norse and popular culture, from games to TV,
films, comics, books, fiction, and of course,
nonfiction, which there is an awful lot of. And
to help me explore this 11th century Game of
Thrones, I am delighted to welcome authors Helen
Hollick, Patricia Bracewell, and academic author
Sharon Connolly Bennett. I always get it wrong.
I don't blame it on toddler brain. I'm the mum
of a toddler, first time toddler, so it's really
prolific for toddler brain living. I do apologize
Sharon, but these lovely women are here to help
me and you, the viewers, learn about this epic
era, which was an era of changing thrones, of
changing rulers, of course rather apt in our
current time in England, well, I say England,
in Britain, more to be precise, where we are
going through a current change of ruler from
the late Queen Elizabeth II to the newly incoming
King Charles III. But it's a very peaceful transition
this time around, but in the 11th century it
was not peaceful. It was full of intrigue and
betrayal and, yes, war and bloodshed. and a lot
of political maneuvering as well not just from
the men but also from the women and it's the
women in particular that I have a particular
passion for in this era and it is partly through
the books of Helen and Patricia that I became
across two of them at least anyway. So I am going
to ask each of our guests to introduce themselves
and of course explain what books you've written
to do with this era and why people should read
them, if possible. So, we shall start with Helen,
first of all. Hello, I was sitting there thinking,
please don't start with me! Silver me and Pat
Helen! Anyway, hello, I'm Helen Hollick. I actually
started off with writing a book a little bit
towards the end of the 11th century. I wanted
to explore the events that led to the Battle
of Hastings, mainly because at the time I lived
fairly near Waltham Abbey, which was Harold Godwinson's,
one of his main towns. It was so nice actually
being able to research something that was just
five minutes up the road. But I wrote, it's called
Harold the King and it's called, I'm the Chosen
King in America. But I got so intrigued while
writing Harold about Emma, Queen Emma, who was,
of course, the mother of Edward the Confessor.
So when I finished Harold, I thought, you know
what, I really want to explore more about Emma
and because inevitably I just had to write a
novel about her. So the UK title is A Hollow
Crown and the US title is The Forever Queen.
And I just thought, wow, this woman, she was
just so incredible. And the sad thing is, hardly
anyone actually knows about her, because she's
pre -Norman conquest. I actually think that,
you know, if the Norman conquest hadn't happened,
Emma probably would be up there on a level with
Eleanor of Aquitaine. even possibly, well, Victoria,
and of course our own late departed Queen. I
think Emma was fantastic. Unfortunately, we don't
know an awful lot about her or her two husbands,
Brett and Canute. Hopefully we're going to find
out quite a bit while we're sitting here talking.
Yes, that's just a taster for you dear viewers
about the wonderful triangles and relationships
that form in this wonderful Game of Thrones.
I'm going to keep saying it, referring to the
era, not the actual series, just to reference
and state. Okay, Patricia, please introduce yourself
and your wonderful works. Well, I'm the only
one who's greeting you from the United States.
I'm a yank, but similar to Helen, I ran across
information about Emma of Normandy and I thought,
this was back in, oh, probably 2000, the year
2000. I thought, who was this woman who was married
to two kings of England, the mother of two kings
of England, the great aunt of William the conqueror,
the mother of Edward the confessor. She was the
reason William had a claim to the throne of England.
I thought, really, you know, someone should write
a book about her. So I thought, all right, I'll
write three. And what I wanted to write about,
because I read Emma's, well, a book that Emma
had commissioned about what she witnessed and
what she lived through, but it began with her
marriage to Knut. And I wanted to imagine what
happened during that first marriage over the
course of my three novels. And so that's what
I did. I began with Emma's arrival in England
and... the third book ended with her marriage
to Knut. So I found that the most intriguing.
I'm still pondering a fourth book. And I know
I hadn't read Helen's book. I didn't read Helen's
book about Emma until after I'd finished my trilogy,
because I didn't want her Emma to bleed into
mine. But that's so we've covered a lot of the
same ground in our books and in our research.
And there you have it. That's it about me. Thank
you very much. And now your turn, Sharon, if
you would. OK, well, I'm the odd one out because
I don't write fiction. I write nonfiction. I
don't write anything. Helen and Patricia, because
fiction just I don't have a clue. I've just written
a short story about the reign of King John. And
it was like it was mind blowing how difficult
it is. Writing nonfiction is great because you
can just you set out everything. Whereas with
fiction, you have to follow. You have to decide
on a path. with non -fiction, you can put all
the arguments there and you can either decide
the answers or leave it to the audience to decide,
leave it to the reader. Whereas Helen and Patricia
have to decide what way forward, what happened,
why somebody did it. I could say they did it
because this, this and this and leave it to everybody
else to decide. So my approach with Emma was
actually I wrote Silk and the Sword, The Women
of the Norman Conquest. And the idea was, much
like Helen, to write about 1066 and the Battle
of Hastings. But what you discover when you start
researching it is the Battle of Hastings isn't
just an individual event. It's all built up.
1066 happens because of the previous 66 or 70
years. And Emma was instrumental in everything
that happened in the first half of the 11th century.
which would eventually lead up to the Norman
conquest. So I expected Emma to be a big part
of the book. I didn't realize how much she and
Harold Godwinson's mother, Gither, took over
the entire book because they were both such strong,
independent women for the time. that was the
thing with Emma you discover that she makes decisions
for herself and for her family but she is the
one who makes the decisions that decide her life
and in most medieval stories you discover that
women have these decisions forced on them and
Emma did have some forced on her like her first
marriage to Bethelred but you used to see time
and time again that she actually tries and sometimes
succeeds more often than not succeeds in directing
her own life and that makes her such a fascinating
character um so that was my approach to Emma
and um I have read Helen's and Patricia's books
but not until same with as Patricia not until
after I'd written because with non -fiction you
have to be really careful not to read fiction
and get ideas in your head when you haven't got
the evidence um with non -fiction you have to
have all the evidence you can't go on go off
at an angle thinking oh no that would have been
Helen said that I haven't actually got that written
anywhere I better not just in case it didn't
Oh of course it did! It probably did, actually
with the 11th century because of the limiting
sources you can actually say it probably did
or it most likely did so you can put that angle
in in non -fiction luckily. When you get to later
sources and you've got everything you can't say
that but with the 11th century there is a little
bit of leeway to say what you think might have
happened. Well, I personally have read both Helen's
and Patricia's books. I think I read Helen's
first and then Patricia's. But before I read
either of yours, I actually read this wonderful
book Queen Emma and the Vikings by Harriet O
'Brien. And this has actually got a bit of a
narrative element to it, that it quite often
puts the reader in an ensue, so to speak. So
it's got like a nice scene where she's on the
boat thinking, oh, I'm going to this foreign
land to meet a foreign man. I don't know the
language well. She might have known sex and that
quite that well, but it just really made it human
and relatable. And then it just blew my mind.
I was like, wow, who is this woman? Why are we
not learning about her instead of Queen Elizabeth?
I've done Queen Elizabeth to death. She's been
on the syllabus for, I don't know how many years,
as well as Queen Victoria. I think we should
replace Queen Elizabeth with the Queen Elizabeth
II and then put Queen Emma in. Just to say. If
you haven't guessed, we're all known by much
more. and hopefully by the end of this wonderful
long episode you will too. If not, go read these
books. The good news is they're getting there.
I got an email from a school in Bolton that I'm
actually going through to in a couple of weeks
and they're doing the Norman Conquest this term
for their year sevens and the head of history
contacted me and she's actually using my book
as the as the module leaves so that they're looking
at the women, rather than from the men. High
five to you Sharon, high five! Just the fact
that they're looking at it from the women instead
of the men is like yes, finally! And as well
looking at, I mean, that was one of the reasons
why I wrote Harold, was because I was so fed
up with history starting at 1066. And I just
thought, oh, you know, goodness sake, we've got
all this wonderful history right back, you know,
okay, yeah, so there's the Romans. They're also
done to death in school as well. And schools
touch on the Vikings rather stereotypically.
mentioned 1066 and then everything from there
is wonderful William. I don't like the Duke of
Normandy, sorry. But I am biased. I think things
are changing now because more women are going
into history. So you have Pauline Stafford's
wonderful, wonderful book about Emma and Edith
and there are quite a number of people like Sharon,
that are writing more books. And these women's
lives across the board, not just in early 11th
century England, but later in medieval times,
their lives are being explored and people are
looking for information about them. And that's
part of the problem is the paucity of information.
There's so little that we have, which is what
makes Emma so fascinating because she commissioned
a book about herself. It's like, whoa, what?
at that time had done that, nobody else had done
it. None of the husbands did it either, surprisingly.
I suppose we have got to bring into the reason
why she commissioned the book about herself.
It wasn't just vanity, it was the reason, because
she needed to prove that her son, Harlequin,
was right for the throne, wasn't it? Right, that
was part of it. She had to, she wanted to present,
she wanted to tell her story. She wanted to tell
history the way she wanted it remembered. Now
that's, that's pretty politically astute to do
something like that. It's almost like PR. It's
interesting to imagine how that book would have
been read at court, in the court of Edward the
Confessor and the court of Arthur Knute and people
listening to it because that was That was all
they had. They didn't have Game of Thrones. They
didn't have Vikings Valhalla. They had these
stories that had been put down. And she likely
knew that the chronicles written by the monks
were going to traditionally did not paint women
in a good light and the best of times. So she
knew she was going to get a bad press. So like
they do these days, she put her own story out
there as well. to actually set the record straight,
because she knew the record was going to be Auntie
Emma. And I think one of the things that actually
struck me about her autobiography, best way to
put it almost, was the fact that she doesn't
mention Ethelred. good again political spin if
you like because she has to mention Edward but
she doesn't mention his father. It's all from
you know Canute's point of view and it just struck
me as that why didn't she mention him and you
know and I came to the conclusion that well probably
because she couldn't stand him. Well I thought
about that too and I think that I sort of went
the same way Helen at first but I really think
that In actuality, politically, it was not a
good time to mention Ethelred. And we have another
version of the Encomian that comes later, where
Edward is given more of a mention at the end.
They change the ending of the book. And you have
to think about who's the audience. And the audience
was full of these Vikings, Canute's followers,
and Arthur Canute's followers. So why mention
Ethelred? And also, as to Edward's reputation,
do you really want to remind the people of now
and Edward of the ineffectiveness of his father?
You don't want to remind people who Edward's
father was, because that's not going to be in
a good light for Edward. What's more telling
is what's not in it. rather what is in it isn't
it? Well as evidence of Sharon's point about
kind of like Ethelred's reputation I remember
as Helen points out learning about Vikings the
Second School and it was a very brief encounter
but especially after it sparked something in
me ever since but I specifically remember learning
about Ethelred and learning about how Dane girls
was used to pay the invading armies of Swede
Fortbeard that the then King of Denmark off repeatedly
and that image of Ethelred being the weak king
not being able to find them in battle because
he always got there late or they'd always be
done by the time he turned up from what little
reading I've done around it I'm always having
to pay them more and then pay them more and then
pay them more just just always made him look
like the weak king and I also kind of like know
of course his nickname of Ethelred the unready
more meaning kind of like ill counsels because
he did have some Very manipulative counsellors,
I'm going to shout out to Edric Streona here.
If there ever was a villain in history, he is
the perfect villain. We'll get to him, we'll
get to him. But Ethelreddin Reddy, the first
of our cast, presented in this lovely playing
card here, looking rather grumpy with a box of
gold. I wonder who he's going to give it to next.
He is the first, really, of this great epic cast
and will eventually lead to Emma because Emma
becomes his second wife. because was he not already
married? Yes, yes. He had a first wife. Yes.
And we don't know a lot about her. We know that
her name was El -Qubu. And she was from the North,
Northern countries. And she gave him a whole
parcel of children, what, 10, 11 children. And
there is some hint that maybe there was even
a prior wife before her, but we really don't
know. So I don't know. I've gone with just the...
Elf Gifu as being his first wife. And she was
sort of like a shadow queen. I mean, well, she
wasn't queen. She wasn't crowned. And so but
she it would have been an alliance with the northern
nobility. Yeah, the northern nobility and shires.
And he had trouble with that all through all
through his life, you know, before him. England
had been divided in the North and the South,
right? At that time, allegiance was to your lord,
your Earl, whoever it was that was in charge
of you that was close by. The King of England
was way down in the South and the people in the
North really didn't have much to do with them.
To be fair, even after William the Conqueror,
we in the North still weren't actually being
that loyal. William had to come tell us off when
he came. They even talk differently now. They're
doing a divide to some extent. So I think Ethelred
was... personally, my view was he was not a strong
king. If he had died at the age of 34, like his
father did, he would have been remembered very
differently than he is today. But he was very,
not so much unready, but unlucky. It was a perfect
storm, time of a perfect storm, that brought
the Danes, the Vikings, again and again and again
to his shorts, and he could not unite his kingdom
against them. He made bad decisions about who
to trust. We'll get into Edric in a little bit.
And he had this really unhappy tendency of killing
off people that pissed him off. So he did tend
to execute people. And so you don't see a king
acting within the law. So those were the the
crimes, I guess, of Ethelred. He was, I don't
think I would have liked him as a person personally.
Yeah, I agree. I'm just wondering, kind of like,
is our image and interpretation of Ethelred as,
maybe not necessarily as a bad man, but as a
bad king, is it well and truly justified within
all the historical artifacts, documentation?
or has it been tainted by kind of like later
Victorian age possibly? I blame the Victorians
for a lot. Their version of history was very
moralistic and you were good or bad and I've
been through a lot of things recently and it's
like oh yeah the Victorians and their idea of
history they and also they made up a few bits
when they had a gap they just filled it. I think,
like Pat says, Ethelred was very unlucky. I mean,
you talk about the Dane girl and him paying off
the Danes. He wasn't the first to do it. He didn't
invent it. Even King Alfred paid off the Danes
when he couldn't build an army to face them.
And he gave them goth from East Anglia. It wasn't
a new system. um unfortunately with Ethelred
it just meant the Danes just kept coming back
for more and then it got more and more expensive
every year. He um but he was also unlucky in
his in the people he had around him like Idrik
Stryona, Thorkell the Tall who was a Viking who
swore to Ethelred but then decided he wanted
to go back to Canute. It was and I mean you have
to look at it, even with Edric, he, he, Ethelred
gave him his daughter, you know, he married his
daughters to these earls to try them, to tie
them to him and they still betrayed him. And
usually that didn't, you know, usually if you're
married to the king's daughter, you're sort of
on the king's side. So every lord seemed to be
out for themselves rather than England and that
didn't help Ethelred at all. He couldn't rely
on anybody. and I don't think that didn't help.
I want to bring up your comparison to Alfred
because Alfred united but he had a very much
smaller area to unite. He only had Wessex and
really Everett is the first time that we see
somebody having to govern all the way from the
Channel all the way to Scotland. His father did
it but his father I think was probably he was
called Edgar the Peaceable but he was probably
a little hard fisted in order to do that. And
he had alliances with the Scottish King and with
the Welsh and that sort of thing. Ethelred never,
he was doing something new. really trying to
control all of that area and he just didn't have
the wherewithal there was nothing in place for
him to do it. I don't think anybody did at that
time either because you have to remember communications
in those days everything was done by you know
you had to get on a horse if you wanted to send
a message. They were traveling fast distances
and you look at when Canute actually came to
power He didn't rule England. He gave areas of
England. He gave Northumbria to... Was he Thorkell?
I can't remember. You know, he separated them
all. He gave Northumbria to one person, East
Anglia to another, Mercia to Eadric, which didn't
last long. But, you know, he knew that you could
not be in... several places at once. So you had
to separate the powers so that they were smaller
areas. Even if you were the one in charge, you
had to be able to trust others to rule certain
areas because it was such a big land in those
days. And Knut, getting back to Knut, he really
valued loyalty. And we saw that for him, that
was a really strong, important point. And that
was the problem with Ethered. He couldn't find
anyone that was really loyal to him. They were
loyal to their own connections. And so that was
a big difference between the two men. And their
own self -interest. I think as well that the
men and the women of the time respected Cnut,
whereas Ethered wasn't respected. probably, I
don't know, I think possibly because Ethelred
didn't handle things as well as he should, and
perhaps he wasn't as consistent, maybe, was,
I think, Canute, because he had, perhaps, I don't
know, did he have an aura more about him or something,
but he was more, because he was respected, people,
okay, fine, yeah, that's what you want us to
do, we'll do that. We won't go against you. Whereas
with Ethelred, it's well, you know, blow that
for a game of Skittles. You know, that's what
I think. It's perhaps interesting, kind of like
thinking on a very basic level, because did Ethelred
ever engage the armies in battle? Because I've
done very least reading, and I always get the
impression that kind of like he'd send out an
army, but they'd get there days after the Vikings
had already moved on. and gone to their next
raiding target or they'd already sailed away
he didn't ever seem to get that kind of like
that first victory that first step that first
show of might and force so i'm instantly thinking
back to kind of use the kind of like analogy
but kind of like football managers when you get
have a football manager and the team doesn't
score a single goal in five games everyone's
looking to axe a manager and get a new one Yes.
There was one time where he had his army ready
to stop the Danes from reaching their ships,
and Andric talked him out of it. Andric said,
let them go. So we don't know why. And he took
an army and took it to near the isle up to Wales
at one point. So those were the two times that
I can think of that he actually led an army.
Of course, we have Britnok at the Battle of Malden.
standing in for the king, and the king would
have been very young at that time. And so when
he was young, we don't see him as a real warrior
king. We don't see him as a warrior king. So
yeah, you're right. He wasn't ever able to do
that until he came back. We came back from Normandy
after he'd given up everything to Sven. He came
back and how did he win? He had Thorkell the
Tall with him. He had, who was it? Saint Olaf
with him. So we had a Viking army and he went
up against Knut's Viking army and that was the
only time that he was really a winner. There
were two Viking armies facing off against each
other. Yes, and unfortunately, well, he died
soon after, didn't he? Right. After that, yes.
So yeah, I suppose in a way, yes, he was unlucky,
but then perhaps it would have been different
if he'd had better advisors. Who knows? You have
to work with what you've got. Yes. You know,
you have to work with what you've got. And he
did try to get them on his side and to trust
them. and to get them to trust him by marrying
his daughters do them. It's just they still ended
up with self -interest. But you look at the end
of it in 1014 -1560 and his son Athelstan was
fighting for him. You had Edmund Ironside fighting
for him and I remember an incident with Edmund
where he had the army ready to go against the
Vikings and Athelred called him back and told
him he couldn't do it. but and because Edmund
wasn't the king at the time he couldn't he didn't
have the authority to lead the army without his
father's consent so you have this thing where
Ethelred is the one in charge well unfortunately
he's not the one with the backbone yeah it must
have been hard for the people for the fighting
men at the time who lived in England because
you fought for your lord right yeah well So you
had Edric Stryona, who was the Earl of Mercia.
So they owed allegiance to him, but he gave his
allegiance to Knut. And you have Knut saying
that he was king. And then you have Edmund saying,
well, my dad is king, but the king is in London
and not wanting to go fight. So the poor people
of England must have just been, oh, no. Who's
king? Who's in charge here? Okay for the viewers
I'm going to give a kind of like a playing card
101 roll through of basically nearly a century
of how many times England changed kings. So we
began with Ethelred. Now Emma came over from
Normandy and if you don't know this viewers Normans
are in fact civilized Vikings. They basically
won the land of Normandy settled down and became
an elite fighting force with cavalry. Who knew?
But yes, Emma came over from them. It's a part
of an allegiance between Normandy and England
and the hope that they'd both get each other's
backs when the Vikings are harrowing their shores.
That didn't really work out. It was the Normans,
the Vikings used to winter in Normandy and Ethelred
hoped that by marrying Emma, the Normans would
not offer the sanctuary to the Vikings. It didn't
work. I'm pretty sure the Vikings just paid more
money to the Normans and just thumbed their nose
up at poor Ethel Rip. Yeah. Norman is short for
Northman. Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to stop
my cousin coming here just because you want me
to. I've certainly never got the impression that
the Normans ever sent, or shall I say the dupes
of Normandy, ever sent reinforcements to... to
help their kind of like sister in her own domain.
No that never seemed to work did it? I think
it seemed to be more of an agreement of we'll
stay out of it. Or just getting a family foot
in the domain which did work out to a degree.
So Edma married Ethelred. Ethelred already had
several sons both of which were mentioned Athelstan
and Edmund. Athelstan was the oldest then Edmund
the first. Well, Edmund came second. Emma did
have two more sons with Ethelred. She had Alfred
and Edward. Is that right? Edward first, then
Alfred. Yes. So you've got Ethelstan and Edward
and then you've got Edmund and Alfred. A very
generational part because they're a lot older.
Before Emma, I think he had something like five
sons with his first wife. and one of those was
still alive when King Canute became king, but
he didn't survive, Edwy, he didn't survive much
longer after. Understandably, understandably.
Well as you might have guessed viewers, there
was a lot of Viking invasions going on during
the reign of Ethelred. Kingswing, Borkbeard,
Denmark decided that he wanted to have a piece
of England and so kept coming back and back and
harrying here and raiding there and... overwintering
and then taking money and going back again. He
had his son Knut with him, he had another son
called Harald kind of like sitting in situ in
Denmark if anything ever happened. Eventually
the Ethelred actually, hang on I'm trying to
catch my history now. Okay I'm going to let you
ladies explain it because you can explain it
better. How did Edmund Edmund earned his name
iron side and how did he end up getting, I'm
gonna guess he was crowned king because he's
got a playing card with his name on. Well, as
we have already mentioned, I think Ethel already
did try to drive back the Vikings, Svein and
Knut. didn't work out so but basically well he
fled into exile, didn't he? But then didn't Svein
die? Is that why Æthelred came back from Æthelred?
Yes, Svein died in February of 1014 and Æthelred
came and the Wytan had gathered in York in 1014
and they were going to crown Sven King because
the whole country had submitted. Ethelred absconded.
He went to Normandy which is, you know, took
his Emma and their children to Normandy. But
Sven died and that left nobody in charge. Knut
was there with an army up in the north and Knut
thought that he was going to be king because
he was Sven's heir, right? His brother Harold
was in Denmark, so he was going to get Denmark.
So what was left for Knute? It was England. Well,
Witten did not agree with that, and they sent
a message to Athelred and said, please come back,
but be nicer to us than you were before. And
so he said he would. So he came back with, as
I said, a Viking army and gathered men. Anglo
-Saxon army as well, presumably, and they went
up and drove out Knut's army. They left. They
went back to Denmark, and they cut off the noses
and the ears of the hostages that they have,
because that was all part of making peace. You
gave hostages to say that, yes, you will be king,
which is what they had done with Svein. They
were Svein's hostages, and they had turned against
Svein and Knut once Svein died. And so those
hostages were mutilated, which didn't make people
love Knut very much, I would imagine. One thing
I want to point out that happened during Ethelwood's
reign, two things. He made the huge mistake of
the St. Bryce's Day Massacre, where he went in
and ordered all the Danes in England to be killed.
Now, they probably weren't all the Danes in England
because the Dane law was full of Danes, but probably
several shiploads of Danes who had been raiding
in the areas where they had settled. And that
turned Sven Forkbeard against him because one
of the women that was killed was Sven's relative.
And so that made Sven decide that he was going
to not just raid England, but he was going to
get rid of Ethelred and he was going to take
over. The other thing that Ethelred, the one
thing that he did that was good was in all that
time, he managed to keep the kingdom running.
the infrastructure of England still existed despite
everything that went on. We still have culture,
we still have laws, we still have charters being
given, we still have the machinery of government
continued, which is kind of amazing when you
start to think about it because given all the
raids and what happened with the Vikings coming
in and trying to disrupt everything, they still
managed to continue. So at this point, in 1014,
Knut is gone. Ethelred is now back on the throne.
He's driven out the Vikings and all the little
patches of Vikings that had been settled in England
by Knut or by Sven. And now he's ruling. And
that lasted for a year. In 1015, Knut came roaring
back with another army that he gathered. And
then we have the setup between Ethelred and Knut.
And Ethelred had gathered an army and was going
to fight against Knut, and he got sick. And then
that leads us into Edric Streona. What do you
want to say about Edric, ladies? Oh, Edric, such
a lovely man. I wonder how many people, I wonder
if he actually counted how many people he stabbed
in the back. For a fiction author, he is the
ideal baddie, isn't he? I have a quote from John
of Worcester who was writing in the 12th century
and he says, Edric surpassed all men of that
time both in malice and treachery and in arrogance
and cruelty. I think it's the fact that he did
betray his leader lord or his alliances and he
got away with it so many times yes but then he
did i mean and but when he did betray in the
end when he did betray edmund ironside he did
it spectacularly they were in the middle of the
battle of ascenden and he just turned around
and walked away and left poor edmund to it and
of course losing what would have been about I
think there was another lord as well who pulled
out so he lost about half his army and he's facing
canoe you know it's like suddenly you've got
to sue for peace because Edric's done it again
and it wasn't the first time is it wonder anybody
actually you know you've got this image of him
stood Edmund stood there ready for battle to
start and going right so are we taking bets on
when Edric's going to turn around and walk away
or do you think he's going to fight? And of course
Edmund Ironside was, I don't know, was he actually
crowned king? I can't remember. I don't know
if he was actually crowned. No, he wasn't, was
he? Well, I've given him a playing card, that's
all I'm saying. We don't have one for Spend,
but we have one for Edmund. Well, as you know
now from events of last month, it's not the coronation.
It's the proclamation. Charles III is Charles
III, but he hasn't yet been crowned, but he is
still king. They follow on straight away. Ethelred
himself was not crowned for a year after he became
king. Yes, exactly. It's the proclamation rather
than the coronation that makes the king. Emma's
two sons were far too young. They were still
what? eight, ten, ten, eleven, something like
that, so far too young. Was he still in Normandy?
I know Emma came back with Etherelle, but did
she not leave the sons back in Normandy? Oh,
Edward definitely was in England. Yes. He came
back first. Yes. He came back as his father's
emissary. Yes. He said, Dad's coming. Yes. You
invited him back. Yes, Dad's coming. Well, I
think really he was a hostage. Yes. you know,
to make sure that Ethelred didn't turn on the
nobles who had gathered to crown Sven. So Edward
was certainly there, and probably Alfred, I would
think. Maybe not the daughter. They did have
a daughter. Yes, thank you for pointing that
out, Pat. I'm ashamed to say I forgot. Yeah,
no one mentions the daughter, but they had a
daughter. Although she may have been married
by that point or in the household of her husband.
She was only like 10 years old at that point.
Yeah but in those days sometimes they would have
been left in the household of their future husbands
once they were betrothed so she may have been
there but she may not or she may have been at
Wilton being educated you know it's um sorry
um noble women in those days were put into nunneries
when they were children to have their education.
Especially in a time of unrest like this it's
possible that she was sent somewhere like Wilton
Abbey so that she was out of the way being taught
to be a lady without having to face the unrest
of the country. Because also, I mean, Emma was
quite young when she married Ethelred. Yes, she
was only a teenager. Yes. I mean, we don't quite
know how young, but she could have been 12 or
13. She could have been 15 -ish. And he was at
least 20 years, her elder, wasn't he? At least
20 years. Well, anyway, her marriage, Gagipu's
marriage was not arranged by her father. It was
arranged by the Duke of Normandy. Either Richard
II or his son, one of his sons. So my guess is
she was probably still in Normandy because why
would you bring a daughter back when you're taking
an army to go? Yes, I think we're talking about
that. Edmund Dyneside was basically the only
one who could get an army together against minute.
It's also worth remembering Edmund himself, he
was only 21, 22, he wasn't an old man. No, neither
was Knut. They were both probably about the same
age. Yeah, that's what gets me about Vikings
Valhalla. I'm watching that and Knut keeps calling
Edmund a young man or a child and it's like they're
the same age! I'm going to say this for the viewers,
if you've seen Vikings Valhalla take it with
a huge skip heap of salt. They have taken two
very different centuries and murdered them. There
were characters in there, yes there's Simon,
yes there's Alfred, but Canute, he was, no he
was, well yes Canute was there, but kind of like,
oh who was the, Harold, Harold who will soon
be Harold Hardrada, or Harold Sigurdsson as he's
known, he was an apple in someone's eye at that
point. Yes, yes, they've really twisted a spaghetti
mess with history for entertainment's sake. I
mean and only in part were emailing before this
recording about the teaser trailer that released
for season two of Some Vikings on a Beach. and
then what could only come from a catapult on
a ship at sea a huge fireball coming out and
crashing like napalm onto the beach don't think
so people don't think so even i don't think so
but that's just entertainment they've obviously
been watching game of thrones i thought we don't
have dragons let's have catapults instead yes
but anyway we're going to stick to the history
Edmund Ironside fought against Canute but so
they basically neither side sort of won so they
decided to negotiate but we don't know why particularly
do we? My theory actually is I think Edmund was
wounded in that battle but I agree. He died shortly
after, didn't he? You know, my impression is,
I think Canute, you know, he knew he was dying,
so Canute basically said, well, there's no more
point in fighting because I'm going to be king
fairly soon anyway. Well, I think the British
nobles, the English nobles had a role here because
they were exhausted. They'd been fighting for
how many years? And they finally said, enough
already. And Edric was, of course, playing both
sides against each other. He was still there
advising both of them. And I think the English
people just were tired. They needed an end to
this. They needed a respite, if nothing else.
Because if Edmund had lived, don't you think
that they would have gone to war again? Yes.
Don't you think that that wouldn't have lasted?
I mean, just try to imagine somebody living in
London, which belonged to Canute. Well, what
if they wanted to go south? There's a boundary
there. That's a hard boundary now. The north
is Dane and the south is Anglo -Saxon. That was
just crazy. They couldn't have lived that way.
It wouldn't have held. Yeah, even the Dane law,
as long as it lasted Scandinavian culture eventually
just filtered everywhere. Since the since the
era of Alfred, we've become a Mongol, well we've
been a Mongol nation for god knows how many eons
and centuries because we've just had an influx
being an island, you have people come over from
both sides. So of course Canute and Edmund made
the deal that they'd split the country and whoever
died first then would get the rest. Edmund of
course died first. so Canute then became the
king of England and unfortunately they've made
him the joker card, don't ask me why, but they
have, which I think is rather sad. And of course
they've put him in the sea because all nice people,
modern people know about Canute, if they have
any inkling about him, is that he was the one
Christian king who tried to turn back the tide.
He was so much more than a king trying to turn
back the tide. Yes, he was a Christian. He didn't
try to turn back the tide. He tried to prove
that he couldn't turn back the tide. And that
story is a total fable to begin with. It doesn't
show up for a couple hundred years. So yeah,
it was totally made up. But he was our first
Viking Christian king. And I think so many people
don't know that. We know the Vikings invaded
England an awful lot. But we did actually have
a Viking on the throne. And Emma herself had
her Nordic roots through her own family in Normandy.
And of course, Emma gets another opportunity
at this point, doesn't she ladies? And no one
really knows whether it's Knut who asked her
or whether she asked him. She had a lot of familiarity
with the Nobles and could help him steer them
better. But eventually they decided, you know
what, let's look up. Let's become the epic power
couple that I absolutely loved them and admired
them to be for. And so we have Queen Emma again,
but to a different king. But she does get the
agreement that her sons with Canute will then
precede her previous sons with Ethelred. So whatever
sons she has with Canute will take over as heirs,
not to Edward and Alfred, which, of course, understandably
pissed off Edward, which I can totally get. And
because he was sent back into exile, him and
Alfred went back to Normandy, and he stayed there
for many, many years. Seventeen. Yes. And because
he became more Norman, really, than the English,
which then had that knock -on effect when you
come up to 1066, of course. But yeah. Just one
of the things that we don't know. Was it Emma's
idea to marry Canute or his idea to marry her?
I think politically though, it was a sensible
idea on both parts. Exactly. That's the thing.
For Canute, it was a symbol of the continuity
of the English monarchy. Emma knew England. She'd
been its queen for 16 years. So it made sense
to Canute that he had her as an advisor. It made
sense. to that he had her there as the symbol
of continuity for England so that he was not
so much the invader he was the invader but he
could claim to you know well Emma's on my side
so you like you guys need to be on my side as
well and for her it was the chance to carry on
being queen um security she was safe if she was
his wife and you see all through Canute's reign
she was trusted by him and she was trusted to
hold the money. Yeah we had an era of peace with
Canute and a peace that the people of England
hadn't had under Ethelred or Edmund before and
they were remarkably successful I like to think
as a ruling couple. Had Canute not died who knows
what else could have happened but there was also
unfortunately one other little tiny little fly
yes we've forgotten about her haven't we sorry
i do apologize to el gifu wherever you are of
northampton um yes canute supposedly a bit like
ethyl red had a previous wife or at least a previous
commitment to a particular woman still had a
wife still had a wife um el gifu or but almost
always known as el gifu of northampton am i correct
because you didn't really have a surname or a
place but she came from like the the rich Midland
lords so she had a lot of wealth kind of. In
those days you didn't really have surnames so
location was like Ethelred's first wife who's
known as Elfgiffy of York so location seems to
be you're either known by your location or your
father. I've been calling Emma Emma of Normandy
for however long this has been going on. Yes,
and yet she was Queen of England, so she should
bring the Emma of England, shouldn't she? Or
actually Elfgifu of England, because when she
married Ethelred, her name was changed to Elfgifu.
And I was just going to say that, unfortunately
they've all got the same name. Is it right because
some of the Saxons couldn't quite pronounce Emma,
however Emma was in Norman? That's what I've
read somewhere, and it always... No. Elkiphew
was a saint and she was a royal saint and so
it was important that Emma be perceived as part
of that royal group, Anglo -Saxon group. And
this was not unusual at all. There were other
women who married into another culture. They
would take the name of that culture. You see
it even later. You see Edith of Scotland marrying
Henry I and becoming Queen Matilda of Scotland.
And even the Empress Matilda, before she married
she was, was it Adelaide? She wasn't called Matilda
when she was born, she had another name and then
when she married she was made Matilda because
it was more acceptable in Germany to be a Matilda.
And actually that hasn't changed even now actually
because Queen Elizabeth II's father his real
name was Albert because once he became king he
chose to be known as George because there was
speculation about whether Charles would keep
the name Charles or change it but because he
has kept it and he is now King Charles. He did
say, I remember the report a good few years ago
probably when he and Camilla got married, he
said he was going to be King George. and so that's
why when Elizabeth died they were talking about
they didn't know what his regnal name was going
to be because he had said previously that he
wanted to be George and then suddenly it was
notice King Charles III and I thought good on
you. With Charles there's always that thing that
because the first one got his head chopped off
he's seen as an unlucky name. It's like why you've
got no King John's anymore? There's never been
a John the Second, either in England or Scotland.
The one in Scotland fared even worse than the
one in England. It just shows how they do change
names. While we're talking about coronations,
before we get to Elfifu, I want to talk about
Emma's coronation, her second coronation. written
quite a bit about that and about the ordination
ceremony. And she thinks it was changed at the
time that Emma was crowned her second coronation.
And she talks about how this was the first time
that the ordination ceremony affirmed queenly
power openly. And she was anointed as regal,
paralleling the king. in some, not all of his
functions, but it really gave her that idea of
being a peace weaver, of being a woman of power,
much more than had ever happened before, and
certainly more than is probably going to happen
next year when Camilla is crowned queen, because
the queen has become more of a, and the king
too, has become more of a figurehead, but back
in the 11th century they had much more power
and as I don't know, one of us pointed out, Emma
held the treasury. So this was significant. She
is a share of rule. Emma was a share of rule
at that time. Just to correct you on something
though, Camilla is Queen Consul. She won't be.
crowned as Queen, there is actually a difference.
Right, and that word was not used with Emma.
I do wonder if they'll change that by next year,
to be honest, because it hasn't been used with
any other Queen consort. They've never named
them as Queen consort before. It's always been,
you know, George V and Queen Mary, George VI
and Queen Elizabeth. So I do wonder if that will
actually change. Just wait and see, won't we?
But at the moment she's only is only queen consort.
I mean to be honest once she's crowned she will
be a queen so they won't that is the coronation
ceremony. She'll be queen brackets consort. Yeah
but once she's crowned queen Well, I thought
we'd have to wait and see. It will be interesting
to see. It's one of the things I keep watching.
I'm waiting for them to drop the consort bit.
It'll be really interesting, you know, another
100 years' time when people are looking back
on, you know, history, you know. So, why did
it happen like this? Yeah, it's setting a precedent
because then you've got William and Catherine,
and if Camilla's only Queen Consort and then
there's, you know, Queen Consort Camilla, then
how will they do it with Catherine? The only
thing here, and I know we are digressing from
Emma, but the only difference here is the fact
that Camilla was divorced. Yeah. Which church
is slightly different, whereas Catherine wasn't
divorced. Yeah. So, you know, that might have
something, you know, adding to the reason why.
But, again, we'll have to wait and see. Interesting
to watch. Yes. We had, Knut wasn't divorced,
he had two wives at the same time. Now, can you
explain to me why, or how about Knut became connected,
very intimately, of course, with L. Giffey of
Northampton, because they did have children together.
Well, they might have had two. It's a funny one
with Elf Gifu in Northampton because she was
his Danish wife. There's this idea that you could
have a hand fasting and become a wife rather
than a Christian marriage. But also the Anglo
-Saxon Chronicle particularly cast doubt on Elf
Gifu giving canoe either one son or both sons.
And even the suggestions that Harold, particularly,
was the son of a priest and possibly not even
Elf Gifu's son. It's hilarious because he's actually
in the Anglo -Saxon Chronicle that they, you
know, that men doubt that Harold is Canute's
son, but Canute doesn't seem to have doubted
it. So I think it's just trying to disparage
her, you know, she's named as a concubine rather
than a wife. suggesting that she's his mistress
and that possibly there was never any marital
ceremony of any kind. But Canoe actually gave
both the sons of El Cthulhu, Swain and Harold
duties. Even in his lifetime, Swain was sent
over to Norway to rule Norway for Canoe. He didn't
do a great job and his mother went with him to
help. or Hinder. They were literally driven out
of Norway. But then even Arthur Canute was sent
to Denmark to be Viceroy of Denmark during Canute's
reign and that's where he was when Canute died
and Harold was in England. We don't know where
Harold was really. It seems likely that he was
in England because he was the one to seize the
reins. I've always assumed that he was somewhere
in the north of England. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
just rewind a bit, was Canute married to Elgifry
of Northampton during like the years his father
was trying to conquer England? Was that a move
on his father's part in order to try and firm
up a base so when he did become king then he
didn't have rights to the north? Is that a Correct.
Well, it was an alliance with the Northern Lords.
Her family was quite, quite powerful. So the
belief is that in 1013, because we know that
Canute was in England with his father, that that
was when that alliance was formed. And I think
Ethelred killed her brothers or something. And
this becomes really important for later on, because
he has, back in 1006, her father, and had been
killed by Ethelred or executed and her brothers
had been blinded. Yeah. And we'll come back.
I want to hold that thought and come back to
that later because I think that's important for
much later after Knud is dead. But I kind of
lost my train of thought here. Elf Gifu, because
that family group was probably pretty pissed
off at Ethelred because of what had happened
to Elf Gifu's father and brothers. They bound
themselves to Knute through this marriage with
Elf Gifu. But was it a... And later on, when
her son Harold tries to claim the throne, and
we have the Anglo -Saxon Chronicle saying, well,
no one is really sure if Harold was Canute's
son. And everyone seems to blame Emma for that
story. I don't think it was Emma. I think it
was the priests, the priests who saw that as
not a Christian marriage and didn't want a son
who had not been born in a Christian marriage
ruling the kingdom. I think it was the I think
it was the church that started that little. Although
to be fair, Emma did forge quite a number of
good alliances with church men and churches because
a lot of charters don't they support her kind
of like gifting land or money or donations. I
mean, I personally think you'll be able to correct
on this lady. What's the name of the church that's
got that beautiful prayer book? of that book
of souls that I've got that's got that lovely
illustration of Canute and Emma and their hands
touching a Bible. Why did I not think of Winchester?
Winchester is very special. Hopefully dear viewers
after this you will go and make a pilgrimage
to Winchester and go find one of the boxes with
many bones in if it's back on display. They were
studying it for a number of years because there
is a box in there that's got both half of Canute's
and Emma's bones in. supposedly there was a bit
of a mix -up during what was it the civil war
the civil war where rioters went into the church
scattered the bones everywhere out of the caskets
and some poor person tried to gather them all
up but probably got them all mixed up so it'll
be interesting to know if they could work out
whose bone was who and actually form a complete
skeleton. I think they've worked out Emma because
as far as they know she's the only woman there
you know they've got Emma's skin. Interesting.
So they'll be able to figure out Arthur Canute's
if they've got Emma's and canoes, they can figure
out genetically that harthacanute would be connected
to those two. So to have those three skeletons
on display would be a dream. That would be amazing.
Let's get back to the 11th century. Yes, backtrack.
So of course, there was El Gifu of Northampton
in the background with her own I guess it would
be fair to say that she herself, a bit like Edward's,
Edward Emma's son, being a bit pissed off about
this new marriage, this new king and queen on
the throne, and she's wondering, well what am
I doing, what have I been doing all these years,
can you? Because she does, she's portrayed at
least in your books, both Patricia and Helen,
kind of like as, kind of like the, how to come
up, this the key manipulator the other woman
she she has she has her own ways of manipulating
men to get what she wants and pulling on the
strings in a bit more of a kind of like almost
like a sassy way compared to emma who often just
go through the church and is kind of about she's
always depicted as being more correct in her
way of obtaining things. If you look at it from
Elfifu's point of view, you can't blame her,
can you? No, I agree, I don't blame her. Somebody
with more land and power is like, all right,
yeah, you've given me all you can, now I'm off
to Emma, but I'll keep you in the background
just in case. You do also have to put this into
context of that was accepted then. I mean, she
wasn't ever going to be queen. And you also have
to remember, it wasn't the only, can you, it
wasn't doing something that was totally unique.
When you look at, in 1066, you look at three
of the protagonists, William, Harold and Harold
Hardrada. And out of those three, only William
was married to one woman. Harold II had two women,
and Harold Hardrider had two women. I was just
going to say this, up until 1066, Harold Godwinson
had his common -law wife, who he now commonly
called Edith Swannock, when he was Crown King,
he had to put her aside to take another lady
to become Crown Queen. So this was, you know,
I mean, it was almost the norm for for Saxon
England. She must have known this, it didn't
come as a surprise in that sense, but I reckon
she was all out for, okay, I know I'm not going
to be Queen, but I should do my damnedest to
make sure that my son becomes King. I think that's
where the differences lie. When Canute had died,
Heather Canoe, Emma's son, was in Denmark, and
I'm pretty certain that, you know, Alf Gifford's
son was here in England, so because he, you know,
I mean, he could just walk in and take the crown.
He was here. Give me the crown. And you have
this mental image. He stole the treasure from
Emma. He went down and took it. what he could
get. But the Witton was trying to negotiate between
the two of them. Let's face it, they were half
brothers, right? They were half brothers. That
is what always strikes me is the relationships
between these men. And the thing that history
never gives us is that interpersonal relationship
among the women. Maybe Elf Gifu accepted the
fact that she was never going to be queen. I
don't think Emma ever accepted the fact that
Elf Gifu... existed up there in the north. And
yet I don't think Elkefi was ever at court in
Winchester or London. I think she was kept well
out of the way. Knut was wise to keep his women
separated. And probably was why she went to Norway
in 1029, get her out of the country. And she
may not even have been in England. during the
first part of his reign. I'm guessing she went
to Denmark. She was the one who took Sven's body
to Denmark. It would have been in like 10, I
don't know, 1016, something like that, 1015.
We don't know exactly when that happened. But
I think she got out of the way and just waited
to see what would happen when the dust settled.
Sharon, could you possibly be able to clarify?
Of course we know Swain had both two sons, Canute
and Harold, who had left in Denmark. At what
point did Harold Canute's older brother, is that
right? Yeah, older brother died because then
Canute obviously inherited the throne of Denmark
as well. Yeah, it was about 1020, 1018 to 2020.
Though it was not long after he became King of
England. No, Canute had an expedition to Denmark
to take control of it in 1020. so it was very
soon after he got England that he also got Denmark
and Norway so I mean he has he does have I don't
know if it's an official title or what but he
he's known as Canute the Great and you can understand
why he had an empire He did. Before Victoria,
someone else had done it and it was a Viking,
I know him loosely, Viking, Christian King. Everyone
should read about him. I'm just saying I have
his book, Canute the Great, just saying. I've
got three other biographies on him. He is such
a fascinating guy. Before Hadrada, who was another
epic Norseman who led an epic life before he
became Hadrada, people should also go look at
that. I'm just saying, don't go to Wikipedia,
find the books, find the books. But yeah, he
actually became a ruler of two kingdoms. Who
would have thought? Who would have known? The
people of England certainly didn't. They were
like, oh my gosh, we've now got cousins. We've
got like kind of like cousins in royalty over
aboard. Well also, when you look at it, he's
ruling these three kingdoms. When you look at
the way England had to be split up into four
parts to rule it sensibly, you're over the sea,
you've got Denmark and Norway, you can understand
why he sent one son to Norway with his mother
to help him, another one to Denmark to rule there,
to have bigger heads there that the barons of
those countries could look to. and you know to
keep them in line. Unfortunately Swain and Elfgifu
didn't manage that in Norway but you can understand
why with the communications the way they were
in those days you know it would take it could
take weeks to get to Denmark or Norway depending
on which way the winds were blowing and how many
oarsmen you had. One thing about Cnut is He was
recognized as a real mover and shaker by the
European royalties. He went to Rome. He was there.
He met the Pope. He was an actor in all those.
His daughter by Emma would marry the son of the
Holy Roman Emperor. He negotiated that marriage
while he was over in Rome. So, you know, and
there was all that. stuff that happened in the
German countries and stuff. It's quite a complicated
political situation and he's deeply involved,
he's involved up to his eyeballs in that sort
of negotiating of what was going to happen. Yeah
and it wasn't just on the international scale,
when he went to Rome he actually helped the pilgrim
roots apparently pilgrims were being robbed on
the way to Rome and he actually made sure he
put a stop to it so he was a very hands -on ruler
he was he was I guess he was a king that really
got on with doing the job and doing it beyond
his shores for the good of his people because
He wrote several letters, did he not, kind of
like during his absence that would then be read
through the bishops to the people in the church
and I always find that wonderful. I know there
was a British Library exhibition of loads of
manuscripts and texts and they included a brief
copy or small excerpt of the Emma Maconium, how
to pronounce it right, I'm probably saying it
all wrong. But they also had a little letter,
like the original of his letter that he sent
to Wolfstam Bishop of York. And you could put
the headphones and you could hear it read both
in modern English and then Anglo -Saxon. And
even in the Anglo -Saxon, you could really feel
it kind of like, yes, we're going to do this
and it's all we're going to do this and we're
going to do that. It's like the best patriotic
speech you could ever heard. It was really moving.
I felt so surreal having to go round the exhibition
and marvel at all these great works by myself.
but I'm that kind of nerd that will just follow
my passion no matter where it goes. Hence why
I'm here with all you lovely people. So yes,
Canute was an epic king, just as Emma was an
epic queen for doing what she was able to do,
not just during Aethelred in that huge turbulent
era, but also bringing great peace and stability
to the people of Saxon England. And of course,
sadly, as you might have guessed, dear viewers,
Canute did die. What age did he die? Because
I can never remember, was it quite young? He
was 1035, so he would have been, he was 18 in
1040, so 96, 40, around 40. Yeah, which is kind
of like, what we think to our modern day lifestyles
is quite young. quite young and yet he achieved
so much. Well that's one of the things about
the Danish kings in England, they didn't live
to old age. Canute sons didn't live, you know,
Harold only ruled for, what was it, six years
or something like that, five years? I don't think
it was that long. I think it was about two or
three years. 1043, so 1036 until 1043. Well guess
what ladies? Harold Herbert, as how I've known
him from what books I've read, doesn't get a
playing card, but half a canute does, which makes
me happy. I've always loved his name because
I always think who follows canute, oh half a
canute. Half a canute, half a canute, that is,
there you go viewers, a free pun to try out in
audiences and see who gets it. Because there
was a bit of a... Pat's already mentioned the
Witton did have a bit of a family feud or civil
liberties going on between who should ascend,
whether it was Harold Harefoot of Olgifu or half
the Canute of Queen Emma. Of course, we know
who the women were supporting. They were supporting
their own sons, as you would. And Harold Harefoot
did take it for a while. But then how did Harold
Harefoot lose it? Did he die? No, sensibly the
Witton decided that Harold would have the north.
Harthacnut would have Wessex and his mum would
hold Wessex for him based at Winchester. So Emma
kept Wessex. Harthacnut, Harold had the rest.
Harthacnut was still in Denmark. So Emma had
Wessex until Harthacnut came back. Unfortunately
for Emma, Harthacnut wasn't in a hurry to come
home. So Harold decided that he would make a
play for the whole of England, and the witton
decided that he might as well have it because
half the canoe's not coming home, so the man
actually in possession of the land gets the land.
So he raids Winchester to get the treasury off
Emma. Emma has to flee to Flanders. Don't say
that too many times. and leaving Harold Airport
with England. Unfortunately, like I said, the
Harold, none of Canute's sons lived even as long
as their father did. Harold by 1040, I think
it was. Yep, 1040 is what my playing card says.
Right. Harold died in 1040. Just as Emma and
half the Canute were planning an invasion. Arthur
Canute's navy was in Flanders ready to invade
England to claim the throne. You have left out
a little bit. Exactly, actually a lot. Emma did
at this time I think was getting pretty desperate
and of course don't forget she's got two other
sons. Edward and Alfred who are in Normandy.
And I think there came a point when she sort
of realised that, you know, Harder Canute was
quite happy with Denmark. And again, we don't
quite know how this came about, but somehow or
other, Edward and Alfred were encouraged to invade
England. Unfortunately, Edward was too much like
his dad. completely hopeless. I don't even know
if he got to English shores or took one look
and fled back home again, but of course his brother
Alfred was actually captured by Harold Hereford
and truly put to death. Yes, I forgot that bit.
Thank you for bringing it up. Emma gets blamed
for it. There is a suggestion that Emma wrote
a letter to Alfred telling him to come to England
and in the encomium Emma says that Harold Harefoot
actually forged the letter and that Emma had
nothing to do with it and but of course Emma
still gets the blame. I'm tempted to agree with
Emma and think that it was forged and I don't
see why she would risk Alfred coming to England
and being captured by Harold if she wasn't sure
of the support and she definitely wasn't sure
of him getting enough support. The thing is we
do know that he came. Yeah, so I think it's more
likely that Harold Harefoot engineered it. I
think she was so politically savvy. I think she
was quite aware that there wasn't the support
for Applewood sons at that time. She really was
dependent on Harthacnut to come. It was a Danish
court at that time and everyone wanted a son
of Canute on that throne. I think we're not giving
poor Harthacnut enough credit. He was really
unlucky in his... half -brothers because his
half -brother Sven had been driven out of Norway
and now Magnus of Norway was trying to take over
Norway and was was attacking Denmark and so he
was fighting him on that side and across the
water Harold was taking his throne of England
which was which was the Witten wanted Harthacnut
to be their king and so that that decision that
took place in England after the death of Canute
was Harold Harefoot will rule for Harthacanute
in the north and Emma and Godwin will rule for
Harthacanute in the south until he can come over.
And according to Emma, the bishop, I probably
have the wrong name, but one of the bishops said,
I'm not going to crown Harold until while Emma
still has living sons. So she had the church
on her side, even though eventually the nobles
decided we can't have a divided kingdom anymore.
We have to have one kingdom. And so they bowed
to Harold and he took over. And I think it's
also important. I want to switch now to when.
Edward and Alfred come to England. I agree. I
think Emma did not write that letter. I think
it was written, and I see Alfifi's hands all
over this. And because she was canny and she
was throwing parties and bribing people to support
her son. We know that from a letter that was
sent by a priest to somebody over in Europe.
We have that letter. But Once Alfred was captured
and taken, it's really interesting. He was blinded.
And we have to look back at what happened to
Elf Diffuse brothers. They were blinded. This
is payback. This is vengeance. I, you know, I'm
blinded. The sins of the father haunting the
sins of the son. Well, for Alfred to live a happy
life in Normandy until that point. Well, and
he was Ethelred's son. So you blinded my, Ethelred
blinded my brothers, I'm gonna blind Ethelred's
sons. And I really think that was a piece of
what was happening there. Although it's true
that one way to prevent somebody from claiming
a throne is to blind them. That was done. Yeah,
that happened more than once. So that brings
that whole backstory back right to the front
when we see that. The other thing I wanted to
point out that I've never seen anyone point out,
if you were a 25 year old, 30 year old young
man living in Normandy, you've got a bunch of
buddies around you, you've got arms, you've been
trained to fight and you find out that the guy
who's kept you from taking your inheritance for
17 years is dead and mom is sitting over there
with a treasury. What's going to prevent you
from getting on a ship and seeing what you can
do? They didn't need a letter from anybody to
convince them to go over to England and see what
they could get. And don't get that. I mean, they've
been living in the Norman Colt. So, you know,
they weren't just... idling their time in a little
farmhouse somewhere. That's right and Edward
saw himself as King of England. Yes. He had had
since he was 12. And they must have built alliances
because when Edward did come but went home again
he had something like 30 ships. I mean he did
have an army behind him even though he didn't
use it and so you know they had people supporting
them, people who thought enough to actually go
with them to claim England. And you do think,
you know, in 1066, William had the same. He had
people there to claim England with him because
you promised them land, promised them riches,
and they'll come with you. Alfred had had had
support as well. He came from Beloit, where his
sister was married to the guy that was in charge
of Beloit and that that whole area. So he had
support from there. So Yeah, Emma had quite a
nice family network going on, all spanning out.
She could have conquered the world if she had
enough sons. She would have sent them everywhere.
But just being back to actually one other important
point because I know Hattie pointed about how
Canute almost inspired or at least rewarded loyalty.
I would like to round off the wonderful ending
of Edric's tree owner, everyone's favourite villain,
because he did betray Ethelred and... Edmund
a number of times and he did linger on a little
bit when Canute and Emma came to power but I
will always remember reading the particular passage
in Queen Emma and the Vikings about how it described
that Canute told him in basically a way kind
of like you've been disloyal too many times I
don't believe or trust you anymore and thus off
with your head and I thought that was just But
just beautiful poetic justice. And I like to
think that Emma was there watching it all and
just smiling and thinking, you finally got it.
Because she probably would have been aware of
all the ill advice he was filtering through to
her first husband, Ethelred, at least, because
she would have probably been counter arguing
against it for what attempts she could make to
persuade the mind of that particular king. We
have to remember that Edric turned on Canute
as well. part way through, you know, he went
back to Edmund and Everyone was kind of saying
Edmund. You're not gonna trust this guy. Are
you? And and he did He must have either had he
must have had the arms to justify people Wanted
him to be there or and ever like a Loki like
silver tongue of this way He did he was both.
He's what smooth -tongued He was the worm tongue
from Lord of the Rings. I'm just gonna say it
that's basically. If you need men to fight against
Knut, you'll take the men. Yeah, I mean, Ethelred
hired Vikings, two fired Vikings. When it comes
to fighting, you just need to get the numbers.
And I often wonder if Edric hadn't been so disloyal,
would Edmund ever eventually have had the edge
to defeat Knut once and for all? And if he had,
that would have changed our history forever.
It really would. There's a lot of times, isn't
there, you know, a lot of ifs in this period.
I mean, really just to end up with almost that
Harthacnut eventually did become King of England,
but he died again, tragically, as a young man.
Two years, that's all we had. And because then
that then meant, of course, that Edward was the
only son left alive. The only eldest son left,
yeah. Edward the confessor became King. And you
then roll forward to 1066 when it all changed
yet again. Yep, here is the much older son of
Emma. Yeah, there's their depiction of Edward
Vestor. There's Edward, yes. So now everyone
will know why he had such a normal court. Of
course, Harthacanew actually brought Edward back
to England a year before he died. He set up Edward
as his successor, even while he was still alive.
So whether or not he knew he wasn't going to
marry or he was ill of something, it's like he
knew that Edward was going to be a successor,
even though he was still a young man himself.
yeah you think Emma had a hand in that Sharon
because I do I think oh yeah I think Emma was
probably the peacemaker and you know said to
Arthur Canute you need to bring your brother
back you haven't got a wife and child yet you
know the Witton could have also demanded after
dealing with the whole Emma and they'll give
you and Arthur Canute versus Harold Heath but
they probably didn't want to do the whole family
counselling sessions anymore well it was probably
also um as a sign of for confidence for England.
It's always a difficult time if the king hasn't
got a successor, an obvious successor. Henry
VIII would be the one to explain that to you,
how much you needed a son. So seeing as he hadn't
got a son, if he had Edward there physically
showing that he had a natural succession, and
also one that could possibly heal many rifts
in England because he was English. And as well,
I mean, Harthacan had his own problems, as we
have said, back in Denmark. Yeah, and Harthacan
wasn't very nice by all accounts, you know, he
was, was it Hereford? He put to the sword because
two of his tax collectors were killed. um he
raised heavy taxes he wasn't a popular king in
England so Edward being there might have also
um helped his popularity problem. I wonder if
Arthur Canute would have had possibly under advisement
from his mum as always his admiration in the
background of things. Well you'd have to wouldn't
you? This woman has been in England in a position
of power since the year 10000 and two you know
she had 40 years of experience you've got to
use that yeah yeah and who doesn't listen to
their mum especially when you spend most of your
life in Denmark as well you say who doesn't listen
to their mum well the one person who didn't listen
to his mum was Edward the Converser basically
would have nothing to do with her. You can't
blame him. Didn't he eventually force her to
basically retire to a convent after all that
time? Not to a convent, I don't think. To her
own house in Winchester. But there was this scene
when Edward did come to the throne, that he and
his buddies, including Earl Godwin, rode all
the way to Winchester to seize the treasury from
his mother. and basically is a symbol of I'm
taking control and also I don't trust you mother
not that she had anyone else to give the treasury
to and and it's a certain sign of Emma's power
that he needed three earls and a king to code
and and and get that get that treasure and say
okay enough mom you have enough money and land
to support yourself stay but then he changed
his mind and she was brought back to court and
so it's interesting too and I think Emma was
probably involved in the decision about who he
would marry. Oh definitely. So that's what made
me think about Arthur Canute because I wonder
if he didn't have any of the underlying health
reasons or wasn't particularly worried about
his own existence. Maybe he saw himself going
back to Denmark, finding a queen for himself
there in Denmark and leaving England to be ruled
in his stead by Edward. Because he couldn't have
ruled both countries alone. He would have had
to have someone. And that's what I have been
doing. So that actually, you know, makes total
sense, doesn't it? So, you know, Edward was going
to be King of England under Harthacanoo. Yeah.
Yeah, it's possible. Makes sense. Yeah. Wow,
we have covered so much ladies. We really have.
And this is why I love this particular area,
because we've gone through one, two, three, four,
five kings. I'm not even going to go into Harold
Godwinson, because that's a whole other story.
One queen, one queen, one queen, two kings, two
sons of, actually no, three sons, then became
king. And how many of them? Yes. at least three,
the one before Emma became El Gifu and then there
was the El Gifu against her so it was it's an
interesting time those under the name of El Gifu
and as I'll say to you as these ladies have written
wonderful books do go look them up. do go google
them read them download them borrow them from
your library they are wonderful whether they're
the fiction or non -fiction because as I said
at the start this is a true era game of thrones
never before has the throne of england changed
so many times and involved proper international
relationships connections empire building never
before never before until this era and this is
why because as Helen explained at the start,
Emma was William the Conqueror's great -aunt?
Great -aunt? Yep, so he did have family ties
wiggling back to England before Edward Confessor
or Harold Godwinson decided that they didn't
want him or did want him on the throne. That's
a whole other thing. I'm keeping quiet. Apart
from to say William had no rights to the English
throne, apart from that. So if you are indeed
watching this and also happen to have watched
or recently rediscovered Vikings Valhalla on
Netflix, Ethelred, Emma and Canute were real.
They did exist. Edmund did exist, although I
don't think he was the petulant boy that made
him out to be. You would have a brother, Athelstan,
who he didn't feature at all. Swain Fultbid did
exist, but he died before Canute became king,
so... That's the pinch of salt with that one.
And as for Harold Sigurdsson and Olaf, they're
a century or two later. Not even a century. Just
they're just over the horizon in terms of the
timeline. Yeah, because they they were they were
children. They didn't know. Harold was born in
1030, wasn't he? So he would have just been born
when Vikings Valhalla is. Yeah, because Harold
Hadrada himself, Harold Sigurdsson, aka before
Hadrada. He had an equally epic voyage to become
the king of Norway and that did involve the whole
spat between Norway and Denmark, but that was
a whole another episode that I may well possibly,
if I can recruit some other authors and historians
to talk about one day, do another episode of.
Does anyone else have any other points they'd
like to make to explain to the viewer about why
this era is so special and should be taught in
all schools instead of 1066? Just saying. I think
I would just like to mention, because we have
vaguely mentioned Earl Godwinson, Harold's father.
He was actually second in command to Canute.
Canute's wife was, sorry, Godwinson's wife was
sister -in -law to Canute, I can't remember.
Sister -in -law. Sister -in -law to Canute. So,
you know, so they were kindred connected, but
that's one of the reasons why the Godwinsons
come in so much into this history, because he
was so involved with Canute. You've got that,
you know, connection there. You know, again,
I just find this all so fascinating, all these
people, all these political maneuverings. It's
just a fascinating period in history, and like
you say, it's not well taught. My son did it
in year five, four, in year four, I think, when
he was seven or eight. And we lived near Gainsborough.
And when Swain Forkbeard was king, Gainsborough
was the capital of England. For six weeks, it
was the capital of England. So just think, if
Swain had survived, London wouldn't be the capital
now. Gainsborough would be the capital. Well,
my son, I remember actually saying to my son,
trying to, you know, get him to do the history
and remember things. So I said to him, so when
did Swain Forkbeard die? Expecting him to say
1014. And of course, he's seven. He just went,
when he fell off his horse. I still remind him
of that lesson. Poor lad. Actually, that just
reminded me of one character that we haven't
touched on a lot, and that is Thorkell at all.
Because, of course, he had a bit of a role to
play. He had a switch of alliances, but not to
the extent of Edric's re -owner. He was, as you
say, allied with Ethelred in ready, but he eventually
switched to Canute whilst Canute was trying to
get the throne, was that right? Yeah, he'd been
on Swain's side, and then when Swain died, he
backed Ethelred because Canute had gone back
to Denmark. But then Canute launched his plans
for England, so he decided actually I'll go back
to Canute and talk his navy with him. Canute
didn't have a navy anymore. Ethelred didn't have
a navy because Wulfnoth had stolen it and had
the battle with Brythnoth and about 80 ships
had been burned. So Ethelred didn't have a navy
so he used Thorkell's but then Thorkell decided
to go back to Canute so suddenly Ethelred again
didn't have a navy. I think I'm going to argue
with you a little bit Sharon. Thorkell the Tall
joined Ethelred in 1012. Oh was it 1012? After
Archbishop Elfe was murdered by the Vikings and
supposedly Thorkell tried to stop that. So we
have to imagine that there was some Christian
background in the local world. And so he went
up against his own Viking army and they turned
against him and he had to decide, oh, I better
switch sides because these guys are gonna come
after me. There was some problem there in the
Viking camp. So that's when in 1012, He joined
Ethelred. And I don't think he left Ethelred's
side. It's really hard to know when that happened,
but I don't think he left Ethelred's employ until
Ethelred died. And then he went back to his original
allegiances, which was to the Danes, which was
to Knut. Because by that time, Sven was dead
and Knut was in charge of the army. And so. Yeah,
that as well at that time, Knut. wasn't particularly
Christian then, but they were still pagan, as
with his father. It's when he converted to Christianity.
Canute was baptized. His name was Lambert. When
he was a little baby, his mother was Christian.
Yeah. So I think, you know, both Sven and Canute
and probably Thorkell, they had allegiances.
They had been, the Vikings had been Christian
for about 100 years, 50, about 50 years by this
point. It wasn't, it wasn't Norse religion against
Christianity, they were all Christians. Yeah,
at least the elite in Denmark. I don't know about
them, even in England you had some pagan beliefs.
We still have pagan beliefs. We still have Wicca
and that sort of thing. He was not the kind of
guy that I think switched allegiances the way.
He didn't turn his back on somebody when they
really needed him, which is something that Edrick
did over and over and over again. I get the impression
that Thorkell would have made an oath of some
kind and he, like most noble Vikings, at least
when Vikings depict nobly, they're always oath
keepers and they have huge hatred for any oath
breakers. That's the general impression that
I got. That's right. That's right. And the oath
was so important in those days, because you made
it on a relic. And of course, that comes into
play in 1066 when William said... Oh, no, I was
going to say that, but you also have to put that
into context of, yes, the oath made on a relic
was important. And this is one of the reasons
why William said that, you know, Harold had broken
his oath. But there's a big, huge but here. Harold
was forced to make that oath. but there is also
a greater oath above that your oath was to your
loyalty to your lord and in return the lord gave
loyalty to his men so harold was in this position
where he had to make this oath because if he
didn't swear to william he or at least his men
would be put to death so it was his honor to
stick up for his men let's say And I think this
is part of the point with Striona, is that he
did not have that loyalty again and again and
again. He broke his oath, not so much the oath,
but he broke his loyalty to the men he should
have been with. That, I think, is the huge difference.
And Harold would have known also that he was
making the oath under duress. He would have known.
that it wasn't valid, that he could get the church
to turn around and say, no, you're okay, you
were forced to do it, otherwise you'd be killed.
We know that's acceptable. You'd already given
an oath to Edward, so you couldn't actually in
any... William couldn't expect you to hold on
to an oath when you've already given your oath
to Edward. Yeah, and yet Streona knew perfectly
well that he was breaking his oath. Yeah. again
and again and again and again. That he could
get away with it. Yes. That he would have excuse,
have his allies, have his alibis. I mean I'm
thinking now on a really common level, I'm like
imagine you're a soldier in Edric Scherner's
army, you say goodbye to your wife, you say oh
we're going to go fight the Vikings and then
you come home early and just like did you win?
It's like oh no we didn't fight and what kind
of tent would have created all these little families
of all these men coming home early because they
hadn't gone and thought for their lord. I often
wondered if there was I mean, he probably installed
some kind of strictness or maybe even a sense
of fear among his men to not have anyone challenge
him. But then maybe that's the way society was.
You couldn't challenge them. But then again,
they're just very honest men, given their loyalty
to him. So they actually had no choice. He would
either say, well, today we're fighting the Vikings,
but tomorrow we're going to go off and fight.
And they would have had no choice. They would
have had to have done what he said. and of course
Canute in the end would have had little choice
but to execute Stryona because you have to show
people that an oath is binding and if somebody
keeps changing sides then and survives he's showing
that an oath has no power whatsoever and you
can't do that so as soon as he was no longer
useful he had to go and he had to go in a violent
way otherwise everybody else could have just
turned around and said actually can you I don't
want to be I don't want to be your oathman anymore
either so I'm going so it had to be you know
he was always going to come to a sticky end yeah
yeah definitely any other last thoughts because
I'm hungry more than I thought we would ever
would but it's been just so lovely to discuss
all this with all of you it really has it's been
a lot of fun thank you I really enjoyed it It's
been great. It's been great. And I just want
to say that, and I think my compatriots here
would agree with me. I think even today, Queen
Emma is given sort of a bad, shadowy reputation.
I've seen her called ruthless, ambitious, and
I don't think that was the case. I think that
she fought for her children. She's been called
ruthless because she sent her two sons to Normandy
and she then married Knut. I think she did that
because this is the only way to keep them alive.
And no one recognizes the position that she was
in again more than once as Queen of England.
how she had to make decisions, really tough decisions.
And I think that to throw shadow on her for doing
that, I think that's not taking into consideration
the situation that she was in at the time. Totally
agree, Pat. I think she should be more seen as
sensible, practical, intelligent. Very strategic.
A survivor. you know she was and it's often the
way you see with women women are often um when
women actually do make sensible moves that protect
them and help them survive they're seen as manipulative
yeah and it's like when they when they do better
than their male counterparts yeah exactly she
was um and a lot of the things she did the men
would have been allowed to get away with it's
like one of the worst names I think that women
are given is She -Wolf it's like they because
they use it as an insult and it's like she's
protecting her children even the ones she sent
to Normandy she did that to protect them oh yes
yes she needs more praise than criticism I think
You have to look at them from you You have to
look at them based on the sources, but you have
to think that the sources are They're they're
they're not kind, you know They are they have
an agenda That's very against women. They're
his story. Yeah and most of them are written
by men, monks even, who don't like women in the
first place and think women should be seen and
not heard. They're not there to actually have
an opinion. So you have to filter out the antagonism
and just look at them as, you know, think, oh,
she was manipulative. Okay, that means she was
strong and she was clever. You know, and you
have to look at it. We should actually do a dictionary
of the way women are described in medieval times
and actually translate it into what women actually
were. The media has, and of course we do too,
the media has taken their stories and some of
it's been twisted, but the reality is the real
story that existed is as fascinating as any fiction
that you could write about them. Yeah. Yeah,
definitely. Well, thank you so much to Helen,
Patricia, and of course to Sharon. You've been
such wonderful guests and co -hosts on this wonderful
big long joint monologue. of this truly amazing
11th century period and it is, as I think the
title just about says, a game of thrones and
queens because if it wasn't without the women,
and I am kind of counting on Gifu with this one
because I know we didn't really acknowledge her
as a queen but she didn't really get crowned
as such, although she did assist in trying to
rule Norway but that didn't work out well. and
Vikingswellhala has made her a queen but she
wasn't one just to clarify. This is why I think
this episode is important because viewers of
Vikingswellhala will finally have encountered
them. They will be wondering were these women
real and hopefully our little joint episode has
set the record straight in many ways. As I've
said several times please dear viewers go read
the books, go buy them, go find them and shower
as well. I haven't got a shower yet on my shelf
but it will be one day soon. and find out the
facts for yourself because it is truly remarkable
and it's far better than Vikings, Valhalla and
Game of Thrones combined there. I've said it,
the mic has been dropped. Thank you so much to
everyone and thank you dear viewers as well for
tuning in for the near two hours of this episode.
We do hope you've learnt a lot. There is a lot
going on but as I repeat, buy the books, read
one after the other and it all makes sense. It
really will. It really will. So thank you again
for watching and happy North Bumber to everyone.
Thank you. Thank you. Bye.