Welcome everyone to Let's Talk Norse. This is
a crazy idea of mine I invented purely to join
in Alex's Norsevember, which is basically a huge
celebration of all things Norse. Go find Norsevember
at his blog Spells and Spaceships. um you'll
find links to authors youtube makers historians
fiction non -fiction comics games the law it's
all there and today i'm delighted to say i am
joined by two of my many favorite authors all
on my bookshelf behind me um amalia carosella
is that how i pronounced it right amalia carosella
and amalia dylan I was going to say Dylan, but
then I remembered on the book that we're going
to talk about today, you've got your other surname.
Is it your actual surname or is it a pen name?
I can never remember which one's which. My actual
name is Amalia Dillon and I write as Amalia Carosella
and as Amalia Teresa. And I write as Amalia Dillon.
I live a life. I've always been fascinated by
authors with pen names, but we'll certainly discuss
that in a different aspect to do with North Mythology
coming up. And alongside Amalia, I'm joined by
the lovely Cat Rector as well. Hello, Cat. Welcome
to the show, episode, broadcast thing going on
on the Internet, into the wide world, into the
gap of YouTube. So first off, my name, I guess
we should introduce ourselves to whoever is watching
us. Welcome, if you are. My name is Becky Hill.
I'm an ex -librarian, super solo in the college
sector. I'm now a senior library assistant at
my local university. and I have been a Norse
myth nut for many years ever since coming across
them in fiction mainly in the forms of Neil Gaiman's
American Gods and then it just spiraled on from
there and then I've just grown to love all things
Viking I'm a regular pilgrimage to the Jorvik
Viking Festival, where once a year they did celebrate
all things Norse myths, so that was my heaven,
that was my annual pilgrimage. And I just love
to talk things Norse, hence the name of our show,
Let's Talk Norse. So, ladies, would each of you
like to introduce yourselves and, of course,
your wonderful works of Norse fantasy, which
we will be discussing today? Amelia, we should
go first, A to Z. Sure. So, as Amalia Dillon,
I'm an author of fantasy, mythic fantasy, and
fantasy romance, including a couple of titles
that feature Thor, Ullr, Delfi, Thor's bondservant.
And as Amalia Carosella, I'm the author of Daughter
of a Thousand Years, which is a dual timeline,
historical and contemporary, which features...
Eric the Red's daughter, Freitas, and the story
of the Greenlanders who travel across the sea
to what we now know is Canada. So yeah, I do
a lot of writing and I do a lot of Norse myth
related writing. I'm also a pagan and Thor is
one of my patron gods, so it has a really personal
meaning for me. Brilliant. Well, thank you very
much for joining me today. Cat Rector, please
introduce yourself. This is always the hardest
part, right? Who are you as a person? I wrote
some books, not as many as Amalia, but I know
she's shocked me. I wrote The Goddess of Nothing
at All. It is a Norse myth retelling from the
eyes of Sigyn Loki's wife. And it is a dark fantasy
that pairs well with tissues and chocolate and
is going to be a little dark for some people's
taste. But some people tell me it's not dark
enough. So, you know, there is a paradox. It
is actually a year old as of first and well,
first of October, I suppose we're delaying the
release of this. First of October, it was a year
old and I am still trying to get used to being
an author, which is a fabulous, crazy journey.
And I have been really enjoying it. And yeah,
I live in Canada and I'm getting used to the
winter again. And I'm sure that that's. cause
more books to be written because I will be trapped
inside well I as a humble fan of both of you
implore you to write more because I love both
your works so it's always good always good you'll
always have my money coming your way for more
books it's fine I'll fuel you through the winter
so um let's just begin at beginning so I would
love to know how each of you encountered Norse
mythology, at what point in your life, in what
form, what medium, and what captured your imagination
then that has led you to where you are now in
terms of writing Norse fantasy. Amalia, let us
start with you, assuming you are a self -proclaimed
pagan. my pagans in my country are always a bit
i'm like are you really a pagan or is it just
a cool nickname you apply to yourself and just
like the fashion like the amulets and that kind
of thing so it's nice actually to speak to someone
who's genuinely knows about it because i honestly
don't and that's part of my ignorance in my own
country well i mean i came to to paganry and
later later um but i i did Growing up, my mother
was obsessed with mythology. She loved mythology.
She's actually a theologian. She has her master's
in theology. I grew up in a household that was
very invested in mythology. From the biblical
perspective, my mother also had a great passion
for classical myth and Egyptian myth. And I feel
like I had a sense of the Norse mythology also,
though that wasn't necessarily her favorite.
So I always had a lot of mythology in my life.
And I had a cousin. My cousin Paul, who will
probably enjoy or not getting this shout out,
he really loved Thor, like the Marvel Comics
Thor. Like he really loved Thor. And I remember
sitting across from him at the kids table during
like Sunday dinners and family holidays. And
he was always talking about Thor and what was
happening in the comic books. And I mean, that
didn't really... penetrate into me until I was
a teenager and then I started reading it. I got
really into the Ultimate Comics and Ultimate
Thor's story and they presented him as this environmentalist
save the whales. He's out on a boat going to
take somebody down because they're hunting whales
or whatever. the idea of thor as someone who
was really invested in protecting the earth like
that really resonated for me and i don't know
that marvel really always knows what they're
doing with with thor but every once in a while
you get these little pieces these little aspects
that really make a lot of sense and it's just
an invitation right like an invitation to learn
more about the mythology and the god and and
the stories behind these stories. And then, of
course, I went to school in North Dakota, which
is deeply Scandinavian and Germanic. So you can't
really avoid the exposure to Norse mythology.
I took a course on Norse mythology when I was
at school. And then I read J. Michael Straczynski's
relaunch of the Thor title for Marvel and there
was one line that really just it hooked me for
the rest of my life and it said it is not for
God to decide whether or not man exists it is
for man to decide whether the gods exist and
up to this point I've been having a lot of experiences
that I didn't really understand because I was
catholic trying to be catholic um but at that
moment i knew that it was my choice to either
accept that there was this god knocking on my
subconscious door or just ignore it and continue
on my merry way and and at that point i like
i knew i knew the gods existed i knew thor was
there something real was happening and it was
a moment when art And Norse myth really just
kind of shook the foundation of my entire life.
And that was it. I was done for. Norse myth for
life. Thor for life. We need those slogans on
a t -shirt. Just saying. Well, did you yourself
seek out any kind of retellings or interpretations
of the mythology since that particular moment?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I've read the Edas and I read
basically everything I can get my hands on. I
read American Gods. I read Greg Van Eekhout's
Norse Code. I read some of the sagas in addition
to the Edas. The saga of the Volsungs particularly
I love. I think it's just fantastic. So I did
do a lot of, we like to say, primary source reading
after, but Marvel was my way in. I mean, I feel
a little silly saying that, but it doesn't really
matter as long as you get where you need to be.
I'm grateful that Marvel opened the door for
me to be able to recognize what was happening
in my life. Absolutely. I mean, there's pros
and cons with a lot of how such old stories like
these are, are remastered, retold, revived, adapted.
And it's just, if anything, it's a triumph of
the human imagination, how many ways we can recreate
and reshape and reinterpret things and just keep
them going and going and going and going. And
me personally, as well as kind of encountering
North American gods, I think it's really the
first. and I hate to say this, only Neil Gaiman
book I've read. I've read lots of others. Others,
I've just got too many Neil, I'm sorry. But ultimately,
it was the history that led me to the mythology,
because I remember reading Bernard Cornwall's
now sadly finished Anglo -Saxon Chronicles with
Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of
Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of Uhtred. Fans will
know the joke there. And hearing his characters
talk about the myth so vividly and animatedly,
like... because they did so utterly believe it
and it made sense to them in how they understood
how the world worked yeah there's something so
cool about these gods because i often describe
them to many of my friends and family who are
totally not on my level with this kind of eagerness
i said they're basically people who've got access
to life -prolonging fruit and a few magical toys
thrown in that's it if you take away Eden's apples
they effectively age maybe a lot dramatically
quicker than we do but then that's it they're
done they're gone and they have so many human
flaws and that is what i we lived about them
and i remember finding a book on north mythology
in the library and making a map of the family
tree to work out who was whose cousin and him
down in his nine months that never made any sense
um and then i encountered norse fantasy as well
as neil gaiman but in another favourite of mine
the always lovely joanne harris in her runemark
series and then of course she's since written
the gospel of loki and the testament of loki
and yeah i think she's got another one coming
out hopefully soon fingers crossed um but yeah
she she she brought out Rune Marx at the same
time I was doing my English studies with a creative
writing degree and trying to write my own Norse
fantasy. It didn't work out, I'm not quite the
next AK Rowling ladies I'm afraid so you're way
ahead of me, way ahead of me, don't worry I'm
not going to upvote you anytime soon. But just
the way she wrote it set in an alternative future
and how it linked to order and almost like a
slight nod to Catholicism. In that sense, it
was just wonderful. And then I've been on the
hunt for more ever since. So I've read Greg's
book. That was really interesting. In particular,
my fascination was with the Valkyrie characters
because I remember coming across them in my lovely
Collins Dictionary of Old Norse. And we have
a list of names and their slight meanings. And
then that's it. Who were they? Where did they
come from? What are they doing there? Are they
gods? Are they not gods? Did they get paid? Do
they train the Ein Harajah? Do they not? Are
they under Odin or are they under Freyja? Because
they're kind of a bit of both. And then one of
the Norns is also a Valkyrie at the same time
because she goes out and picks the dead. So it
was all really lots of questions. And I think
that's what captured my mind. But anyway, I will
not neglect our other guest. Kat, please, sorry.
Please answer your question. If you can remember
what it was. If we're not going on nerdily for
a long period of time, what are we even doing
here? Right. Yeah. Agree. The way it's true.
Yeah. uh for me like as a kid Norse myths kept
popping up in these little ways like in retrospect
I can see them like just popping up like little
moles out of the ground in like games I was playing
or media that I was taking in um and then I kind
of got more serious about it when the Marvel
movies started coming out and like just kind
of That was the thing that laser focused me.
But on the opposite side, I didn't laser focus
on Thor. I was laser focused on Loki. And I was
one of those girls. But as well, like I knew
that there was something to it. Like for me,
villains are always really compelling. Because
a lot of them have those underdog stories. As
a young teen, my thing was Spike from Buffy.
It's that punky, I would literally kill and die
for you kind of thing. There's something about
characters who have tragic pasts, who at one
point were an underdog, who seem to be misunderstood.
That gets me right in the heart. I spent a lot
of time going back after the Thor and Avengers
movies were out, reading a bunch of the old -age
comics and probably not to the depth that Amalia
might have done. I read them, but I didn't look
in them. I have no memory for anything. Three
months later, it's gone. But I did that for a
long time and then kind of let it drop. Then
when I was in my mid -20s, I moved overseas and
I was in Belgium for a while. And there was like
a full year where I wasn't working and I didn't
know anybody and I had a hard time making connections.
And I just, I read Neil Gaiman's retelling and
then started to have all these questions. And
I had not read the source material yet. And I
was like, okay, well, the answers have to be
somewhere, right? They don't have to be anywhere
and are in fact nowhere. But I kept having all
of these like cause and effect questions, especially
regarding like Loki from the perspective of like,
well, if I had this happen to me, I would probably
also be mad. So like what morality is always
a big question for me, not specifically here,
but like in general, when I'm reading books,
like why does a person choose to do the things
that they do? And so I just kept digging into
that and not finding any answers. So as a person
who, you know, as a teen existed in like fandom,
you make your own answers, right? Like you write
your own fanfic and then you answer your questions.
You can move on with your life. I could not move
on with my life. What started out as a... thing
to do to keep me busy while I was like pre -COVID
isolated turned into a four -year journey to
publishing a book and the first draft was absolute
garbage because I really was just trying to like
just get out those frustrations of not having
the answers to these things that like we never
have like we might never uncover a piece of paper
that gives us that answer I was like I can't
live with it I can't live with that so Yeah,
that's kind of my journey with it. I am very
vaguely spiritual. I don't have the discipline
to have any kind of, like, regardless of which
religion, I have no discipline for that kind
of thing. I would make a very bad pagan person.
But I have a deep respect for paganism and for
the... um for the folklore that goes along with
it and i hope to someday be in the position where
i think we go to these festivals i i went to
castle fest a few times and was able to kind
of observe and and pay my respects that way because
it's like it is a like um it's a festival in
uh near amsterdam where it's kind of like a run
fair but they also have like pagan activities
and places for people to go and and do those
kinds of more serious things not just dressing
up like a dragon for fun um and that was really
nice to be able to observe um I just wish that
I was the kind of person who had that kind of
um discipline and god I don't even know how to
describe it I'm just a very very unorganized
person unless I'm writing a book I can relate
to that. There's no harm in being who you are,
Kat, none at all. I mean, I like to think that
in the way that you and all the other authors
that I have read and I adore, particularly when
dealing with this pantheon, are honouring the
gods just by retelling their stories, giving
us a new twist, giving us a new angle, because
you don't often see people retelling or rewriting
Greek mythology or Roman mythology or Aztec mythology
or... hindu mythology or persian mythology or
that kind of thing it does tend to be norse something
about being norse and the north pantheon has
just captured a universal imagination it's amazing
how popular it is outside of the northern hemisphere
kind of thing um so we all know now why we love
and how we got into norse mythology is there
a each of you and I'm going to do it in reverse
order so Kat you can now take over and then we'll
go to get back to Amalia. I think it will shock
no one if I say that Loki was the thing that
brought me really heavily into this you know
and it started as that Marvel nerd thing but
evolved into a lot of the questions that I had
about the morality the cause and effect like
if Loki does X and then Odin does Y and then
the result is Zed, like, what does that look
like from the other perspective? And it's funny
because it kind of comes, there's this conversation
that's had in a lot of book communities now about,
like, if you write about something, do you, like,
advocate for that? And, like, I definitely don't
advocate for the end of the world. Gosh, that
is an interesting question. Yeah, like, you know,
if you're writing true crime, do you advocate
for murder? No, probably not, right? So in that
respect, like, it's more for me about looking
at why people do things. And despite these, like,
Loki and the other gods being gods, the Norse
pantheon has such a human aspect to it. There's
a lot of people making very human mistakes. human
choices based on human motivation and that's
like that's what really um drew me into a lot
of this uh specifically with loki like so many
of the the myths revolve around choices that
he made or choices that were made for him or
things like that and so that really drew me in
but as well as i was like digging into that pre
pre -serious writing um a lot of the stuff that
i was seeing around loki about being like a god
being worshipped for his his their her queer
identity that was very um interesting for me
because at the time i was also struggling with
that um and so kind of looking through the myths
and looking through what people had written um
different uh papers from universities that had
talked about loki as a queer patron saint kind
of character of Loki's identity of like the myths
where we're talking about cross -dressing and
changing into a woman and things like that like
it was all very interesting to me as someone
who wasn't quite sure what I was at that time
and so it kind of in in writing those stories
let me also explore my own identity what I thought
about myself And it turned out not to be Loki
that I identified with in the end. But yeah,
the morality and the queerness of the characters,
that's what really drew me in. And what made
you decide to write from Sigyn's point of view
in your wonderful book, Goddess, Nothing at All,
which I highly recommend to buy from all good
bookstores. Definitely get tissues, chocolate
and maybe a cuddly toy at the same time. Something
to cuddle through the anguish and the pain, but
also to cuddle in the joy moments. So, yes, tell
us, how did you first come across Sigyn and what
sparked her voice for you to tell her story?
combination of things because I was looking to
write something around Loki but I am unintentionally
but forever that hipster who doesn't want to
do what's popular so I was like I want to write
around this but I don't want to write what everybody
is writing like I don't want to just write another
Loki story because it's you know been done and
I know that that doesn't matter but Five years
ago, as a younger hipster, it mattered to me.
And I wanted to find an angle. And so I'm looking
around for different things. And Sigan is someone
who at that time, there wasn't really another
book out. There was, I think, maybe one very
pagan central book that had been written about
her. And I think that's the only thing I could
find at that time with my meager research skills.
And so I was like, okay, well, this is an angle
I can work from. Why don't I like start seeing
what I can do with it? And it grew into something
more because the more I looked up what was known
or what was part of like the pagan perspective
on Sigan, like it was a lot of stories that really
didn't give her any agency, like that she was
the better wife, that she was a child bride.
And things like that. And I just, it felt kind
of unfair. And, you know, the truth can be those
things, right? That can be the story. But as
well, you know, having come from reading a bunch
of different mythologies written from the perspective
of a female character who didn't get any agency
up until that point, like Cersei, I was like,
okay, well, you know, I could theoretically give
this character some agency. And if Loki is so
handsome and so smart, it stands to reason he
might also have a wife that he likes, not just
someone he wants to beat down. You can still
be evil and not beat your wife, right? Like the
two things don't have to be mutual experiences.
So I just kept trying to figure out how that
would work. And it took me like a good two years
to figure out who Sigan was and what I thought
she should be and like how her. Like Loki is
a chaos character, right? So if he is chaos and
we see these different mythologies that it's
like light marries dark, earth marries sky, that
kind of thing. Like what is she to him in opposition?
And so I made her a very high strung academic
that seemed correct. But yeah, it just. I want
to say it just kind of happened, but it kind
of happened slowly over a long period of time.
Well, I think you've done a wonderful job in
giving her a voice and giving her more of a story,
because the title you've picked for that book,
The Goddess of Nothing at All, is so apt for
singing in mythology, even on a generic, basic
101 level. And that all we know is that that's
her name. She's the wife of Loki. We don't know
how they met. We don't know when they were married.
We don't know when they had the children. All
we know is that she's the poor unfortunate soul,
to quote Little Mermaid, to have been roped into
this chaotic family of a pantheon and then to
suffer the most absolute heartbreaking way at
the end of it. Because, yes, Loki brings about
Ragnarok, but so many people, I think this is
the thing that Marvel nearly needs to capture
properly, is that... loki was punished before
he brought the end of the world he did suffer
a lot who would want to be under a dripping poison
snake nobody nobody at all um and poor sigin's
there holding the ball um and i like i'd like
that as well that she she's i'm trying to think
of how best to describe how i felt her she's
she's almost she's got these constant struggles
which have given her so many struggles both before
she meets Loki and from other people besides
Loki himself with all the trouble that he brings
but as much as she sometimes crumbles when she's
met against that brick wall of nope that can't
happen on refusal and public shame and that kind
of thing it does almost make her heart turn into
a obsidian or like a diamond it just gives her
that inner core strength that she somehow does
rely on in those final chapters in those final
moments to put her through so as much as she
doesn't think that she's made the life that she
wanted from the start of the book it has made
her into the person she is that's how I felt
anyway after reading the book I'm trying not
to give away too many spoilers please go away
and buy it all good bookstores people thank you
It's charming to hear that because like Sigan
is kind of the amalgamation as well of a lot
of the women that I know in my life who have
come up against a lot and have had spouses that
were challenging. And some people have, you know,
you get wind of a review or something. It's like,
oh, it's not realistic. I'm like, well, the women
in my life would tell you that it's realistic.
But, you know. But you'll never have someone
agree, right? There's never going to be a universal
agreement to find that people don't feel realistic.
As well, some people come up against a lot of
challenges. So it's nice to kind of have that
come through. I mean, I know I've told you personally
on Twitter that some of the scenes around her
being pregnant and going through motherhood,
I can totally relate that to. I mean, I certainly
didn't have the lovely family network of friends
that she did. not even divine ones because of
course my pregnancy was throughout our first
period of lockdown back in 2020 so i had it was
a relatively easy pregnancy in that i wasn't
traveling all over town for work and stuff i
just had to get out of bed and go to the next
room and there i was at work but it did have
that isolationism and of course how she went
through the first birth because of various reasons
that i'm not going to spoil loki wasn't there
that's a whole other legend and myth and topic
we will get onto shortly i'm not missing that
opportunity um but yes i thought he did really
well and the thing that i was thinking of last
night ahead of this recording session was actually
her relationship with loki and the problems he
brings and the problem then she then faces because
of it it made me think back to my mum and my
dad's relationship because my dad was an alcoholic
long story short it started in my teenage years
and basically ended in with him having a second
stroke that was the fatal one um in 26 you know
2015 he died just before i got married um and
my mum absolutely worshipped the ground he lived
on no matter how many family conferences we had
no many times me and my siblings poured our hearts
i say look he's doing this he's doing this and
it's hurting us not never physical it was all
emotional kind of thing just the sight of having
your dad going up the stairs kind of thing um
drunken and not in a very upright manner to put
it politely um she would always will him to try
and change and always will him to do the next
best thing and in a way that's almost like the
relationship singing and lucky i've got because
he's almost an addict for trouble for chaos for
breaking the rules and even though you're wanting
him to be a good person and be a good boy and
do all what odin says kind of thing he will he'll
find his way around thing and then we have the
concept and then we've got the whole kind of
like kind of like the grievance then the anger
and then the acceptance and the hope of redemption
and then the whole cycle continues and that did
make me think a lot about my parents relationship
and so i think there is almost that um what's
the word spouse and addict kind of problem going
on and it can be addiction of all sorts and i
think you captured that really well but that's
how it came across to me from my background other
readers might not have had that because they
haven't had the lovely background that i've got
behind me at the moment but that was really good
um i know i was because of course where i live
being in england we have the wonderful york the
proud capital of the danelaw back in the days
when vikings were around um they had a lovely
community performance on over august and it was
called oh my gosh where is it i've got it somewhere
bear with bear with bear with The Coppergate
Woman. It was actually inspired by the woman
or a skeleton of woman remains that were found
in the Coppergate dig where the Jorvik Viking
Museum is based and they decided to give her
a life, give her a story and she basically became
reanimated and alive in the museum and wondered
where everyone was because the play was set in
lockdown so no people were there looking at her
remains. And the Norns appear and say, oh, you
know, Valkyrie, you've got to go sort the people
out there in kind of like great dire emotional
distress. And it's because of pandemic and lockdown
and stuff. And one of the characters that she
meets and tries to help through actually comes
across as Sigyn, which I was really delighted
for because it's the only other time I've met
Sigyn in any form, in any literature or medium
besides just the occasional reference or appearance
in Norse fantasy. Because even in the other Loki
books I've read. Sigyn doesn't have that much
of a role. The centre spotlight is purely on
Loki, and sometimes more often Angerboda, but
never often Sigyn. So thank you very much, Kat,
for giving her a voice. I'm sure wherever she
is, she'll be raising a horn of mead. But yes,
I so wish people like yourselves were around
when that play was on, because sadly it was like
a once -in -a -lifetime performance, because
it's just done with a few members of the community,
but I was so lucky to have seen it, and it was
wonderful. I wish they could have put it on DVD.
But they don't. So moving on from Sigyn, we're
going to another fantastic female superhero slash
character, which is Freydis, the daughter of
Erik the Red in Amalia's wonderful book, Daughter
of a Thousand Years, her beautiful time narrative,
which delves into the whole issue of belief and
sticking to one's true goals and the opposing
forces around it. And again, it's from a very
woman against the world point of view. So Amalia,
how... What idea sparked this book besides maybe
your own background? Well, actually, I had just
written Helen of Sparta and By Helen's Hand,
which were Greek myth retellings of Helen of
Troy's story before the Trojan War. And the market
turned. And my publisher, I still had a book
under contract. My publisher said, hmm. we need
you to write something different that isn't Bronze
Age, Greek myth, whatever. And I said, okay,
let me think about it. And I put together kind
of a short list of things. And then I realized,
you know what, this is the book. I wanted to
tell a story of a woman of faith. that, like,
outside of Christianity, right? So, and I thought
to myself, well, you know, Freitas is in Greenland
with her father, and she and her father are the
last pagans in Greenland. Leaf the Lucky has
been tasked by King Olaf to convert the whole
colony in Greenland to Christianity. And it's
basically Freitas and her father against the
tide of Christianity that has washed up onto
their shores. And I thought, you know, the obvious
parallel to me is because I needed to do a dual
narrative because that was the thing at the time
when I was writing it. It was really big. And
I thought, like, the obvious parallel to me was
the daughter of someone who is politically involved,
because Eric the Red, he ran that. Like, he was
the chief, basically, of Greenland. So I wanted
to do the daughter of a congressman who was also
pagan in a Christian Catholic community. Because
I felt like that's, it's really interesting to
me to see that these are the same, you're seeing
the same struggles, right? As a pagan in the
modern world, today, we're immersed in this Christian
first place in the United States. I can't speak
to other countries. I know that there are other
countries that... the predominant religion is
a different religion. But in the United States,
it's a Christian tide and you don't really know
you're in it until you're trying to swim in the
other direction. And I think the difference between
then and now is just that Freitas and Eric knew
that they knew that it was coming for them. Right?
We don't really know until until something happens
that causes us to look elsewhere. So, yeah, and
then the more I wrote or the more I read about
Freitas and Eric the Red, the more fascinating
it was to me. And I mean, she is not a good person,
right? Like, Loki? Like, she's not great. She's
a murderess, right? Like, she's not portrayed
as a good person. In fact, she's the foil to
Gudrid, who goes on to be the mother of three
bishops or something. And is the paragon perfect
Christian woman in these sagas. And she, Gudrid
is a really interesting character too, but she
is, those sagas were written, like actually one
of them, one of the sagas of the Greenlanders
is traced to have been written by someone, like
I think it was like a nun or a monk, and it was
preserved because Gudrid was the mother of three
bishops, right? So it's, It's very much about
her and her story and how she is this perfect
being, right? As much as anyone can be. And she's
able to even cross the line to pagan, to the
pagan side without losing any of that Christian
purity, right? Whereas Freitas is just, she's
just trying to live. It's a force of nature.
That's how I describe her. She's just trying
to live her life. And she doesn't want anybody
to tell her how to do it. She wants to be able
to do what she wants to do. She doesn't want
to be tied to anyone. And we know now, of course,
that there were plenty of opportunities for women
in the Viking Age. Like, they weren't tied necessarily
to what we see now as traditional gender roles.
Or what we've imposed backwards as traditional
gender roles. Like, they could do other things.
They could explore. Like, we don't have to look
any further than Gudrid in the same saga to see.
Like, she was part, like, she partially led the
expedition to Newfoundland. And so why couldn't
Freydis? Right? Why couldn't she? also be doing
it and like she goes more than once to to America
she travels more than once there and I just thought
for me this book was it was one of the most intensely
personal books I have ever known I was writing
right like sometimes we write a personal book
and we don't realize how personal it is until
later that that was forged by fate but But Daughter
of a Thousand Years, I knew. I knew that this
was a really personal book. I hadn't told my
family I was pagan yet. So in writing the book
and preparing for publication, I also had to
prepare for that, telling my family that, hey,
I'm actually not Catholic or Christian. I'm pagan.
Not unlike Emma. who who has to have that um
experience in her contemporary timeline where
everyone just wants her to just can't you just
go to church for your father can't you just do
these things for your family like why are you
why are you being a problem like why can't you
just be like the rest of us you know um and i
think emma and freitas both have two totally
different responses to that pressure that external
pressure to be something that that isn't true
to themselves uh and i tried really really hard
to present a full full array like the full spectrum
of faith right on both sides pagan and christian
because i don't think any of this needs to be
about demonizing anyone right it's just about
letting people live their true life the life
that's true to themselves so absolutely i don't
know if that answers the question no this is
the wonderful thing about my freestyle interview
skills unless I'm rubbish at keeping track of
what was asked and we just let conversation develop
and naturally flow it's all good it's because
it is interesting and and that's why I'm kind
of like so pleased to have you both involved
in this because you both picked some female characters
that are up against so much and that needed a
voice needed their their story to be heard for
us to realize this and I know it's something
that I discussed with Joanne harris myself personally
and heard her discuss in other events that i've
been to in of course a lot of these mythology
come from the prozed and the poetic header compiled
by snowy stillston an icelandic man who was a
christian so a lot of it has been tated by christianity
already and then she herself got asked where
are all the legends about the goddesses adventures
why are they always about the male counterparts
um because we know about um No, I was going to
say Freya, but no, she's not really in it that
much. She's in a few myths, but not often. She
doesn't really go off and be the protagonist,
so to speak, because my favourite myth, of course,
is Slave Thrym, when Thor gets dressed up as
a bride, because Freya won't go and get married
to a giant, which makes sense. But yeah, but
she herself believed that there were these stories.
They probably did exist, but for the society
at the time, those stories... were not wanted
to be shared or not relevant or they didn't want
to encourage female independence and power. It
was such a male -dominated world at the time
and you're quite right that we are learning as
time goes on through archaeology and more research
and there are so many brilliant PhD students
and doctors studying Norse myths and Norse sagas
in a completely new way. including and really
embracing kind of like the LGBTQ community and
that kind of perspective on history as well which
I think is wonderful and that females did have
a lot more significance in society they really
did I mean I know you mentioned Aphrodis of course
went to America twice I instantly thought of
Ord the Deep -Minded who kind of like led her
whole family on a boat and led them to freedom
I can't quite remember where from or from who
but I know she led them to freedom and that's
the key thing possibly possibly or she sailed
to Ireland or something something having to do
with Ireland there's so many sagas especially
when you mention Iceland Iceland just has a whole
book of sagas yeah and it categories like one
family ancestry to the next and the next it's
massive it's like a medieval face book it's just
huge It really is. There's so many stories in
Iceland. I mean, I think it's called the Landmabok
or something. I'm rubbish at speaking Old Norse.
Never get me to quote Old Norse anywhere. But
I really do kind of like really enjoyed reading
these books. And of course, Amalia, your Forged
by Fate series with Eve of the Christian Pantheon,
as well as Adam. And then you have Thor. Would
you like to introduce us and the viewers to how
you came up with that really interesting love
pantheon triangle of pain and anguish, but equally
love? Yeah. So I think the most important thing
for me to preface all of this with is that I
wasn't even 20 when I started writing Faith of
the Gods. Right. It was my very first, very,
very, very first story that I was going to be
like a book, like a real book. And so on the
one hand, I think I'm all about romance as the
bridge. Right. Like, so we have the love triangle
between Thor, Eve and Adam. And, and like, why
would I do that? Well, like, because, because
love, love is a bridge, right? Like love. is
the bridge for everything between all worlds
all people so i think that that that's the easy
answer right um but the messy answer is that
like i was going through a quarter life crisis
i had no idea what was happening like i didn't
know anything about anything but what i did know
was that I was struggling immensely with my faith,
right? That was the one thing I knew was true.
And when I was drafting what became Forged by
Fate in its more final form in 2008, 2009, because
I started writing it in 2002, 2003, I knew with
certainty that I was having these spiritual experiences
of Thor. But I had been raised Catholic, and
I didn't know how to reconcile these incredibly
intense, real experiences I was having with the
paradigm of my Catholic upbringing. But through
these books, through Adam and Eve and Thor, I
was able to shape. a mythology that made space
for what i was experiencing for the rest of for
the rest of all of the pantheons alongside of
catholicism and this idea this concept of the
one god and i didn't really realize it at the
time right like daughter of a thousand years
i knew i knew that that was me like working through
some stuff but i never i didn't realize at all
um what I was really doing in Forged by Fate,
what that book was really about, until, I don't
know, 10 or 15 years ago, or 10 or 15 years later,
I was reading it, and there's a moment in Forged
by Fate where Eve is with Thor, and Thor is pretending
to be mortal as her husband, and she's confessing
herself. that she's Eve, that she was created
by and given the breath of life by God, Elohim
or Yahweh. And the making of her, the making
of Eve in the mythology of the book, drained
God of life. And she saw his Haskababadi with
her own eyes. And Adam proclaimed God dead. So
that's her story. She knows, or she thinks that
she knows that God is dead. And she says to Thor,
That she envies the people who can have faith.
The people who can believe in God or God because
that was taken from her by her knowledge of the
truth. She thinks she knows the truth and that
truth means that God is not there. So what can
she have faith in? And Thor resolves in that
moment to become her God. He knows he can be
the higher power she longs for, the protector,
the lover, the grace, the reassurance that people
with faith can reach for, but she was never really
able to access. And he can give her all of that.
And in that moment, he dedicates himself to it.
And that moment in Friday Faith, I did not realize
until much later, was extremely reflective of
what my own experiences had been. i i didn't
know god or jesus they didn't speak to me i didn't
feel their love it was absent from me but i could
see it and envied its reflection and its power
and its glow in other people right like i i saw
that they had something and and i longed for
it and ultimately where i found it was thor right
i i felt thor's love i knew thor And I think,
so it was really natural then that there would
be this tug of war in Eve in this book between
Adam, who's of God, who's made for her, and Thor,
who is a power existing outside of God's creation,
because that was what I was struggling with.
And sometimes we have to look outside of what
has been deliberately made or created for us
to find our purpose in our life, to find happiness,
faith, joy. And it doesn't mean that we're rejecting
the gift that we were given by the people who
love us, right? And I think that that's where
the love trial comes into play. You can still
love. what was made for you and what was given
for you or given to you but it doesn't that's
not all there is and sometimes you have to have
to step outside that and it creates a tension
between the two different forces that influence
and even govern our lives and I think that that's
So really, I guess it's just all a big metaphor
and I didn't know. What do I know? I was young.
It was my first book. I didn't know anything.
I found it really, really good. I mean, it's
obviously been a number of years since I read
the trilogy, but I know I was just. hyped every
time the next one came out and i devoured it
within days if not a week maximum and then i'll
put one big long worded review of how good it
was i'm gonna read somewhere um but i did i love
the mechanic of how i mean i'm still this is
going to come from me personally as a reader
of said series i can't quite remember why thor
was around but none of the others in his pantheon
were or was it because you just wanted to focus
on thor because i kept thinking surely odin's
gonna come charging over the hilltops and say
i knew that daughter alone she's not good for
you she's from that so -and -so god over there
um they were all there it's just that we only
saw thor's point of view right so he he he was
in and out of asgard and and we see um that odin
basically was an architect of of some things
in his life that that then like fell apart and
and Thor is grieving the loss um and he's and
Thor is at odds with Odin for for the majority
of the trilogy uh so and like also I I really
really wanted to to matchmake Baldur and Athena
together like I really wanted to do it and it
just They just didn't fit. They just did not
belong. They did not belong together. No matter
what I did. They were like no. Nope not us. Nope.
So. Yeah so. The other gods are there. And of
course Loki is there. Loki is a thorn in Thor
and Eve's side. For much of the series too. But
yeah. i i focused on thor because thor was who
spoke to me well that's as good a story as any
as i find to write a story following that story
really i mean and this is where stories they
all reflect us and our society and our lives
kind of thing um I think all authors put a bit
of themselves, no matter how deeply they think
they don't, a little bit of themselves, or if
not people they know in their lives and social
circles will come through in characters. I mean,
when I was reading Goddess Nothing at All, I
fell in love with the fact that Hodo was effectively
a big librarian. Even if he was blind, he still
loved books and had all the books and lived in
the big library. And I thought, yep. i want to
be him i just want to live in a library that's
just totally me i mean i'm stuck with these six
humble shelves three of them you can't see one
of them you can't um but my husband won't move
to a bigger house so i can't have a big library
i need to win the lottery but never mind that
and my daughter will ever growingly fill up the
house with all her toys um so let me think of
what my next question was because we've talked
about so much already as i put my one there So
I've done that one, I've done that one, I've
done that one. Let's turn to Marvel, seeming
we've all mentioned it, and I myself have got
into Marvel, I have the hammer, I have Lady Thor,
as I call her, because that is what first got
me into Thor comics, when they made Thor a woman,
I was like, yeah, I'm in for that, let me have
a read, and I've been following it ever since.
Jane Foster, if you haven't known, because the
film is out now, they've finally made a film,
sadly, it left much to be expected it has a lot
of plot holes I think need to be explored more
because the comic book arc of Jane Foster wielding
the hammer is so much longer so much more fun
and then they gave her the role of being a Valkyrie
which really got me excited because I'm like
wow it actually was a Valkyrie superhero besides
the Valkyrie from Ragnarok which I was a bit
meh because her story just didn't have a lot
of depth to it. I'm like, everyone's lost someone
in a war. That's not an original backstory. But
that's just my personal opinion, no offence to
the writers. But yeah, I've been following her
since and of course in the current story arc
that I've got going on in the comic storyline,
she's got the hammer again because Thor's gone
missing and yet again she has to go in and save
the day, that kind of thing. And they've finally
killed off Odin. Spoilers, he's still around,
he's just not himself anymore. He's in the hammer.
He's the voice of the Hammer people. That's just
crazy. But yes, so besides Marvel really getting
into, of course, Norse mythology, and they've
kind of like introduced a few of the characters.
So they've got Sif, but she's not Sif with a
long, long blonde hair that gets cut off by Loki.
She's a brunette and she takes over him down
on the bridge at some point. I don't think they've
actually introduced many other. Norse pantheon
characters from the original myths. I know they've
got... They've got one of Odin's brothers. I'm
pretty sure I've encountered him in the comics,
but not many more. Of course, they've got Frigg.
Frigg's still around. And they've got Freyja.
And of course, then they've got... Baldr. Yeah,
they've got Baldr. But I don't think they've
got much more. Personally, I know they're sometimes
touching it. I know they reflect a lot on giants.
They have giants pop up all the time. But in
terms of Marvel comics, I think they've got so
much more they can dive into and really, really
explore with the whole pantheon. I know I've
come across North Miss in a number of games.
There was one game that I enjoyed to a justifiable
level called Two Human. It was a weird kind of
sci -fi game where you play as Iron Queen of
the God Balder and you have to follow either
a human route or a biotechnology route and you
basically go off with an endless army of recruits
and kill loads of things with guns and somehow
face the day. And you fight Fenris the wolf as
well, which makes no sense as well because he's
got to be around to kill Odin. So that's the
other thing. But I'm wondering if Marvel doesn't
touch too much in the depth of all this, because
so much of it is quite wacky, to be fair. And
this is where I'm going to reel back to the point
I said way back however long ago of Loki and
a particular story involving a horse. Yes, so
many people don't know this, but they really
should, because it's it's another favourite story
of mine of how Loki. became a horse and then
gave birth to a horse and I think Kat you dealt
with it brilliantly in your book because I've
read it in loads of other Loki books and it is
all kind of like done deliberately he deliberately
became well he did become horse to then lure
okay for the people watching we'll just summarize
it in 101 basically there's a giant he's building
a wall for the gods he wants to marry Freya in
order to build the wall he says he can do it
in record time Loki says Tell him to do it in
half, he'll surely fail. But he doesn't because
he's got a magic horse that's helping me build
the wall. Cat, I salute you for having him actually
have the horse put a brick on the wall. I was
like, this horse is actually picking up a brick.
He's not just calling, he's picking... brick
up and putting it on the wall that is definitely
a magic horse totally absolutely undeniably a
magic horse that of course then leaves the gods
with a problem and they all look to loki because
they got him in the mess so loki decides of course
to be loki uses magical transforming shape abilities
to become a female horse lure the stallion the
magic horse away and nature has its way in so
many of the loki books that's done deliberately
whether loki intended to then get pregnant after
that escapade is another entirely topic but in
the myth he does fall pregnant as the horse um
and stays away for a long time because horses
have a long long gestation period in the womb
and then give birth then he comes back leading
slate near the six -legged horse that ultimately
becomes odin's favorite steed number one cat
you did it so wonderfully in a brilliantly fresh
and almost brutally honest take on it in that
that loki didn't intend to get pregnant as a
horse loki did not like giving birth to a horse
all by himself in the wilderness who would totally
who would i it's not often i feel great sympathy
for loki but when i read that bit i'm like yeah
That guy had it rough. Sigyn, yes, Sigyn gave
birth with all her family and friends around
her. Loki, he was in the woods as a horse, giving
birth to a six -legged horse. That is pretty
darn tough. No one can beat that for sympathy
points, really. But sadly, people often fail
to see that. They fail to sympathise with that
particular aspect because it's almost like, oh,
it's a Loki joke, it's a Loki trick. He's fine,
therefore he's dealt with it. he doesn't share
those emotional scars he'll have had from that
incident with anyone else but signet and we would
all have emotional scars i think if we had to
go through i mean whenever i watch wildlife episodes
animals seem to be so pain -free and stress -free
when they give birth it just pushed and it pops
out done us humans we're so it it it's a severe
trauma for us homo sapiens don't know why it
is oh But that, I think, is wonderful. And I
do wonder, it's because that's such a wacky thing.
I mean, it's not just the wacky nature of Loki
giving birth to Sleipnir, but even the entire
way the world was created. I mean, there's Gnungagap,
the great big black void, and there's Niflheim,
the land of ice, and Muspelheim, the land of
fire. And then all of a sudden, there's a cow.
And the cow licks the ice and then finds a giant.
And then from his armpits and toes come other
giants. It's all so crazy. it is so refreshingly
crazy and i think that's why i love it so much
because i'm equally crazy i think that no one
could capture that and still have an audience
that would watch it or play it if it was that
kind of setting in that kind of place i mean
it's almost quite grim if you had to explain
to a six -year -old why is this guy oh this guy
is actually someone's giant skull and those clouds
their bits of brain floating around it's just
nowhere else no other pantheon has it so So wacky.
That's the only way I can describe it. Quite
essentially Englishly wacky. That's it. What
are your thoughts? Do you think there are elements
of the pantheon that are so abstract, so wild
and so out there, even to us 10 ,000 years after
the Vikings were around telling stories? Or do
you think there are elements that should be showcased
more myths than characters that should appear
in whatever medium you'd like them to be? Why
don't you go ahead? So I have a very nerdy take
on all of this. First of all, like with the origin
myths and like, and these like, oh, the sky is
a skull, this kind of thing. I think it really
brilliantly showcases the kind of like dual nature
of how hard life was and how they still found
like. humor in things like there are a lot of
different stories where you can kind of see some
of that like dark humor coming through like if
we don't laugh we might as well cry so let's
have a joke and you know like it's cold some
of the places where they said we're fairly barren
like life sucks sometimes and you can like I
find that more relatable as like a mythology
rather than like a warm place where things are
good and easy and there's plentiful fruit and
like I just with my own personal experiences
of the world where things were challenging I
found that to be like a refreshing thing about
them how there is like this duality of finding
the best in your situation so having like having
this very violent idea of like making the world
from a giant or that we like eviscerated like
it kind of And it's weird. And so in being weird,
it's kind of humorous, but as well, it kind of
like jives with what I would expect from a society
that kind of like had to do what it had to do,
including like raiding your neighbors or creating
war to raid across the sea, like these kinds
of things. So it doesn't like, in a way, it doesn't
surprise me that, you know, these things are
so out there and somewhat violent. um and like
the lay of thrim is is the perfect example of
like this violent thing of like having to go
and like or i'm gonna bash this guy's face in
with my hammer when i get it back but also doing
it in a way that was like um you know men don't
typically wear dresses so we'll put thor in a
dress because he's probably stacked as like he's
you know huge but he will put him in a dainty
little gown like these these moments of levity
that surely you had to have in the middle of
winter when you can't leave your house and somebody
has to keep everyone entertained um and then
the flip side of that as well like specific to
um loki and the horse like that that myth it
is really weird right it's not something that
i think most people want to look too hard at
because if you look too hard it gets really weird
and really gross and like against a lot of the
things that we as humans we're like we don't
fornicate with the animals like that's one of
the rules right so nobody wants to like think
too hard about that and that was kind of the
challenge for me of like most um it's easy for
it to be a joke because then you don't have to
look hard at it right so um i because for me
it didn't fit the narrative of like i have jokes
and i have humor in my book but i am taking their
life seriously so i was like okay i should look
really hard at this spend time with it and i
i will tell you my spouse wished that i did not
spend time with it because he got to hear about
me spending time with it there's a lot of research
involved um but like in kind of taking it seriously
and and like taking the joke out of it um it
get it there is a fresh perspective that a lot
of people i think didn't you know it's it's easier
not to take it into into consideration and um
so like i i think as well like with that particular
myth it is a joke But in the same way that many
of the things about our source material that
we have is unreliable, is it a joke because of
the unreliable material or was it always a joke?
Is it a joke because Christian society would
not much like that? There's so much on the table
that we just don't know, right? was kind of trying
to play from it from that perspective because
having sex with an animal is like either a story
you don't want to look too close at as like a
christian person from that period or it's um
a good opportunity to make a joke about a character
who you want to be the devil who you want to
like take his queerness and look at it from a
less friendly perspective like there's so many
possibilities so i don't know i've said a lot
of things they do make sense i think i mean if
you can i jump in i think that that point is
really really important because we can see even
in uh in story's ada right he He goes out of
his way. To undermine the gods. And to. I can't
even say that word. I've only read it. He makes
them human. He takes their divinity away. Right.
And I think that a lot of. These stories. Where.
Like. Where the gods are humiliated. or embarrassed
or or made to look bad right i think that that's
there is a very real chance that the reason that
those stories were preserved was for the purpose
of making this religion this faith tradition
ridiculous right absolutely so that so that people
wouldn't feel pulled back to it right because
the church has to had to firm up its hold on
this area um and i think that that's i mean i
honestly like obviously i i don't know i can't
say for sure whether any of this is true there
is the tradition of like the flighting poem where
where you're just basically just like roasting
people right like and we see that with um loki
comes back uh before he's before he's finally
chained um beneath the snake like he basically
just like roasts everyone in the hall right and
and that that feels natural right because he's
he's in a he's like i might as well in for a
penny and for a pound just like if i'm going
down i'm going to take all of you with me right
and and we also have um a tradition of the flighting
the flighting poem the flighting scene in the
saga of the ball songs too like this is a this
is an old tradition but i think that there is
like a focus on this as ridiculousness That is
unfair. And especially like we're talking about
Thor. And being dressed up in the wedding gown.
To go to. Pretend to be Freya. Which like the
thing that's really. Really bizarre about that.
Is that the giant believed. That he was Freya
at all at any point. Not that he was wearing
the dress. But that anybody bought it. But like
we also have. In Greek mythology. In that tradition.
Hercules, Heracles, I suppose, he's in service
to a queen as part of his labors. And they're
out in like a meadow just like having fun doing
stuff. I mean, if you were a queen and you had
Heracles at your disposal. I mean, I don't know
what I would do, but doing what they do. I mean.
That would be a great father to your sons, right?
The genetics. So they're out in the woods and
they're having the time of their life. And Heracles
just decides to dress up in her gown and be her
and like puts on her clothes. And it's just like,
la -di -da, like totally. We never hear about
that. Right? Like when have you ever heard of
that myth? No, I haven't. Nobody ever talks about
it. Because Heracles isn't ridiculous, right?
Like, because there's something more respectable
about the Greco, like, the Greek tradition, the
Roman tradition. It's more respectable because
that's the roots of the church, right? It's the
roots of Western civilization. So, and we see
Snorri pulling into that. into that tradition
by trying to make the gods Trojans who escaped
from Troy during the war like none of it makes
sense but it's about about preservation and making
it respectable enough to allow these traditions
to be kept in at least enough uh enough of an
index that that norse society scandinavians can
still like icelanders can still understand their
own poetry right and i think that every time
we look at the norse mythology as a whole and
laugh at it we're continuing the tradition right
of of undermining an entire people's faith in
service to the church and i'm not saying that
there aren't funny things right like i'm not
saying that some things aren't genuinely hilarious
like loki tying his something to his testicles
like like it's really there are moments of like
high drama hilarity whatever but It's not any
more or any less ridiculous, any more or any
less unbelievable, any more or any less wacky
than any other mythic tradition. Yeah. I think
that when it comes down to it, like people who
are like taking a read for the first time of
the source material have to kind of understand
that. as much as we are writing you know our
own fan fiction about norse myth and norse figures
that snorri was doing the same thing writing
his context the way he wanted to write it with
his agenda and the agenda of you know the people
he supported and that you know there's absolutely
going to be truth in there and there's absolutely
going to be his agenda as well right okay i'm
gonna bring us to another topic now and it's
a topic that I've encountered before when I was
trying to do something similar to this session
um in last year the London MCM Comic Con when
I managed to get a panel accepted to do a topic
on Norse fantasy I was talking to um another
favourite author of mine Tessa Gratton, who wrote
the wonderful United States of Asgard book. It's
a whole revelation alternative world where the
US is basically all pagan. But the gods are real.
They're all celebrities. Odin's effectively like
one rank higher than the president. And there's
a conclave of archiaries. And it's just all awesome.
Very wonderful series. Definitely go look it
up. And she has a very good, very good position
that she will only. get involved in panels where
there is some representation of diversity to
better reflect the community that we're all from
and it did actually make me look scientifically
scientifically more critically is the word actually
it's not scientifically critically at my books
and see what type of authors are writing these
things and i have to say is predominantly women
like yourselves and it is predominantly white
there's only one other author of colour who I
know and that's TJ Ayer who wrote an interesting
series about Valkyrie's um first one's called
um oh my god where is it Dead Radiance there
it is there it's got them on my shelf um but
yes but I know she's from New Zealand and she
is of I want to say indonesian possibly eastern
middle eastern heritage kind of thing apologies
tj if i get that wrong um but that's the only
person of color and yet interesting marvel of
course going back to marvel when they decided
to make the thor franchise of films they have
made him dal a person of color or a person of
b -a -m -e background i never know which way
the correct way of pronouncing it so i must apologize
if i offended anyone from that marginalized community
um which i think is slightly an interesting nod
to the myth that he came from nine mothers so
you could create anyone of any type shape or
size or color of nine mothers um but then of
course in the latest film thor love and thunder
slight spoiler sif loses a hand i won't say how
or why but she loses a hand and that's almost
a slight nod i'd like to think or hope to the
legend of how tia lost his hand to fenrir when
they were binding fenrir the wolf because of
course that's a whole other legend they've left
out i think that'd be lovely to have odin face
off against fenrir but he didn't he just went
to a cliff and turned into dust and magically
faded away um but i don't know what you to think
in terms of diversity and inclusivity and equality
in terms of not just the readership kind of like
are you encountering many fans from marginalized
communities reading your work so indeed have
you known or met other authors from marginalized
communities that have connected with this pantheon
and are writing about it and that kind of thing
uh this is a really important i'm gonna say important
topic uh especially in heathen norse pagan circles
um where there is a lot of white supremacy uh
where white supremacists have co -opted the mythology
and its symbols. And I think that the thing that
I'm going to say is this. Number one, we know
that the Vikings traveled everywhere. It is absolutely
unreasonable to think That there were not people
who resonated with their gods from everywhere.
It's absolutely unreasonable, right? It's absolutely
just beyond unreasonable. We know that Europe
itself was never just white. Never, ever, ever,
never, ever, ever, ever. It is absolutely unreasonable
to think that only white people. were raised
inside of these communities who worship these
gods. Absolutely unbelievable. Like, it's just
pure fantasy to think otherwise. But I think
the most important thing to remember is that
gods are not limited by human understanding.
They are not limited by human perception. Gods
can be anything they want to be. They can look
like anything they want to look like. Right?
I mean, Loki is a shapeshifter. What? There's
no reason at all to think that this belongs,
that this mythology, these stories, that any
of this belongs only to... white people or only
to people of a particular ethnic cultural background
like it doesn't make any sense historically and
it doesn't make any sense theologically and I
think if the gods speak to you they get to decide
right like that's not We don't decide who the
gods speak to. That's just, the gods are for
everyone who is looking or who is reaching or
who needs something. The gods are for everyone.
And that goes for, I mean, aside from Hinduism,
which has a theology that doesn't allow for conversion
because of reincarnation, they believe that you're
born. in a particular place for a particular
reason in a particular tradition or for a particular
reason and like that's totally i get it i get
it right but like these old myths they don't
belong to anyone specifically the world is wide
the world is diverse even as far as the bronze
age as far back as the bronze age we have records
of incredible amounts of cultural exchange. We
had Hittite kings sending to Egypt for physicians.
This is not... It's infuriating to me to think
that anyone is grasping onto this and saying
no, gatekeeping for cultural supremacy. because
it's just not it has no basis in reality their
arguments have no basis in reality i totally
agree and respect everything you've just said
i've been to a number of norse conferences where
there are a lot more intelligent people than
i am people who are very lucky and blessed to
study norse mythology in any or norse history
in any context it's something i wish i could
do if i had my time and money to go back and
do again um and it And it is coming up a lot
more of the issue of white supremacy, not just
adapting and kind of like trying to own the mythology,
but also in the history. I know from one conference
we went to, it was discussed on how there's all
these Viking type. They're almost like brands
in a way that they've got sophisticated marketing
on social media websites and stuff like Viking
men or beards. you have to be a proper viking
and have a proper beard and they did this and
they did that and they didn't do this and they
didn't do that and it's just yeah it's a whole
issue i think that's one thing that another thing
that appealed to me about the mythology and that
it has got quite a diverse cast of characters
of course we've got hoda who is a blind god they
don't come across many blind gods you've got
two losers in their arms who is an amputee sif
possibly could have suffered from alopecia if
that's the way the Loki myth of stealing her
hair is interpreted because of course she needs
then to wear a wig because she's lost her hair
um you've got who else have we got we've got
of course Hindal the nine mothers so we could
have like an adoptee Loki himself is an adoptee
of sorts um who else there was oh there's someone
on the tip of my tongue There are others. There's
loads of different aspects of the pantheon that
reflect a more honest society. They're not all
fit and healthy and all prime of their life.
I often get the impression from the Greek and
Roman gods that there's nothing possibly wrong
with them, but these all have physical as well
as the emotional flaws. I often like to think
that Odin himself is incredibly, incredibly paranoid.
He knows the end is coming and he will do anything
at all to stop it. So he just... pulls and pulls
the strings in every way which they perform and
the fact that he kind of like has his uncle's
head in a jar deliberately kept alive to keep
talking to him and telling him what's going to
come next is is quite dominating it's almost
a bit like an abusive controlling personality
it is very interesting how they have those elements
that we now recognize but people at the time
might not have done because they didn't have
They didn't understand that relationships could
be abusive. Well, they did, but they didn't have
the means in society to deal with it, manage
it, address it, change it, recommend it, that
kind of thing. What's your thoughts on all this,
Kat? I would have a hard time putting it any
better than Amalia did. It's a really important
conversation to me, even from outside of not
being part of the spiritual communities. I just,
it is infuriating to think of people trying to
gatekeep spirituality. It just, it's mind boggling.
In my own work in trying to imagine a more multicultural
world, I have done things like in my stories,
the entire community of the elves are Black and
they, that's like they have a beautiful elven
society and like in our lord of the rings type
of thing but they just are black people or they
um there are different cultures that i try to
give a particular ethnicity just to keep the
world not all white because i just don't think
that that's realistic um and again we do know
that people traveled and they picked up things
from cultures we know that people of various
worldwide pantheons would take on gods from other
pantheons like they were like always like trading
gods for lack of a better way to say it and sorry
cultural exchange yeah exactly like that we we
know this was happening and there's no way that
this wasn't happening in like Scandinavian places
like it it is really frustrating to to try to
vocalize how horrible it is for someone to try
to put their white supremacist agenda on top
of something like this. For me personally, because
it is a more personal subject, my own agenda
of diversity tends to come from queer minority
groups. So a lot of the people that I am having
beta read my work or that are attracted to my
work come from queer communities. There is such
an opening for them specifically with Norse myth
stories and the way they have interpreted things
and the way that God speaks to them that allows
for that. It is a beautiful thing to watch people
feel accepted through their faith in places where
they have previously not. I mean, we know...
that culturally Christianity has not been kind
to queer people in a lot of different communities
and for them to like go from not being accepted
in a Christian community to being fully accepted
in a queer pagan community is it's beautiful
to watch and watch somebody try to gatekeep that.
Frustrating. So have either of you come across
any of the authors writing in the genre of Norse
fantasy that come from communities such as the
ones both of you each represent and are proudly
supporting today. Because I personally haven't
come across many more that are at least either
of an ethnic minority or from a different sexual
marginalised group. I find, like, I think that...
Right now, it's easier to find authors of color
in writing historical fiction generally. I think
that there's been a real push to include more
perspectives, especially as we do World War II
to death. There has been a lot more inclusivity
because people of different backgrounds are bringing
different perspectives on these stories that
apparently there is an insatiable appetite for.
And I think that it's also becoming easier to
find authors of color in contemporary romance,
in YA, contemporary YA, and I think YA fantasy.
I don't know that I personally have come across
any particular authors of color working specifically
with Noor Smith, but I think that that's on me.
I'm sure that they are out there in the self
-pub indie book space already. And I wish I could
point to some. But I think that, I mean, I don't,
I haven't, like, they haven't come to the top,
right? But I don't think that that means that
they're not there. And it's hard to find things
on Amazon. There's almost too many books. But,
like, I don't. I think that we will start to
see more of it. I hope that this drive for greater
inclusivity continues to open doors for more
people to feel confident in writing these books.
Because they have just as much of a right as
anyone else. And I'm sure that they have really...
interesting perspectives on the stories too.
How about you, Kat? I do have a few. I think
one of the theoretical limitations to why we
might not see people of different ethnic backgrounds
writing in Norse mythology, like if I can imagine
a perspective in like First of all, with a lot
of the white supremacy stuff that does go around
with Norse pathology, as perhaps someone who
is Black, do you want to expose yourself to that
kind of thing? Do you want to keep your practice
private? So there's kind of a gatekeeping thing
there that might keep them from wanting to create
a career around a particular subject. Or as well,
if you are Black, do you... decide to write about
your heritage like there are different kinds
of things coming into play there but like um
no we don't end up writing just one book but
what is the topic of your heart is it going to
be northsmith or is it going to be perhaps like
um your history your um the the ethnic culture
you come from these kinds like that's a very
personal thing that people have to answer for
themselves so i could see those things being
roadblocks for it people of different ethnicities
that aren't specifically Scandinavian wanting
to write in Norse myth. But I do have some. I
have, unfortunately, I don't remember the man's
name, but there is a man writing. He is a Black
man writing Norse mythology, and he wrote the
book Scotty. I have not read it. It's on my list.
Everything's on my list. But I have seen him
around, and it's... a book with like it's blue
and there's a there's like a world tree on it
I will just check my Goodreads app one second
because I'm from your list probably um so he
is one of the very people of color that I've
seen writing under Northsmith um and I do hope
one day too that my mood reading will take me
to that book um and a lot of the books that I
do end up having are um more like in diversity
is more queer representative and so uh Lyra Wolf
is writing queer Loki stories she's on my shelf
to be read but she will be eventually it's um
somewhat spicy queer Loki singing stories and
there's going to be I believe at least six so
there's that um the witch's heart is bisexual
So there's that. And I know that there's more,
like I have more of them, but the ability to
recall it on the spot is failing. But if anyone
is on my Goodreads, Kat Rector Goodreads, I have
a list of like books that I've read and books
that I haven't read and things like that. So
you can go in there and kind of take a look at
my shortlist. I will be adding both your Goodreads
links to the blurb at the end of this video.
it's definitely going to go on there because
I've got a very long list of read books as well
as a very long list of to read books my to read
books list is always getting longer and longer
and longer yes I found his name it is the author
of Skadi is Stephen Greyer Williams thank you
beautiful book yeah I need that book yes like
immediately yeah very good reviews As Amalia
was saying, there are definitely lots of opportunities
for diverse books in Indian self -pub. So anyone
who's trying to look for more diversity in Northsmiths
should absolutely give those types of books a
chance because those are the people who aren't
being told no by publishers because they don't.
Publishers choose things that they know they
can sell. That's an important part of their job.
And if they don't think that someone's writing
to market. then, you know, that's not a book
that's going to get published by like Macmillan.
So if you're looking for something off the beaten
path, check the beaten, like off the beaten path
in Indian. Yeah. And I think that, like, I just
want to emphasize that this is a failing on my
part, right? Like the books, I'm sure that there
are books out there. It's a, it's a legitimate
failing on my part. And, and I, I haven't, like,
I don't, this is gonna, I'm really picky about
mythological retellings. Like, really extremely,
extremely, extremely picky because I'm pagan.
So, I'm not always picking those books up at
all. to be perfectly frank with you because that's
fine that's fine some authors don't actually
read the genre they're writing I know I'm a big
history nerd as well as a Norse myth nerd so
above these shelves are shelves full of historical
fiction I mean one of my author friends on there
doesn't ever read the genre he writes but he
still writes it really really well and that's
totally fine um that leads me on to another interesting
question actually um so we've covered books that
we recommend for those who are wanting to broaden
their bookshelf so to speak to better reflect
society and whatnot and equality and inclusivity
are there any other titles you would highly recommend
to viewers who think oh i've not encountered
north fantasy before where do i begin um i i
already talked about uh Norse Code by Greg Van
Eekhout, which I think is like a really interesting
take on a modern -day Ragnarok, and kind of dances
around the outside, the edges of the myth. One
of my absolute most favorite reads is Giants
of the Frost by Kim Wilkins, which features the
god Vitter, one of Odin's oft -forgotten sons.
And it's kind of like there's a reincarnation
thing. So you get part of the book from Vitter
in Asgard and part of the book from a woman on
Earth who's having these experiences and really
weirded out. And I think that S .T. Bend, also
in the new adult space, has been writing a lot
of, has written a lot of... norse fantasy um
perfect order features tear uh her end year series
features uller um so i mean they're they're ya
romances but they're i mean go forth apparently
who would you recommend then cap for beginners
For beginners, I mean, I think the ultimate,
ultimate beginner's book is Norse Mythology by
Neil Gaiman because it's so succinct. It's so
easy to access. I think it's, like, for the person
who doesn't know anything, like, that is the
easiest way to take in the information. But as
well, like, there are a lot of people, like,
I've had plenty of reviews that says I am that
person's first, like, read into any Norse myth.
And apologies for any inaccuracies that you now
hold because it's the first one. But like, I
think if people are looking for accessibility
in the Norse myth, but aren't looking necessarily
for the purest version of it, I think that people
like the author of The Witch's Heart, like that's
for people who are looking for Circe -like retellings,
like that's a great place to go. I like a lot
of my recommendations, sadly, are more mainstream
things that people are probably recommended like
a bunch of times. But I think as well, that speaks
somewhat to how accessible they are. Because
like they they're written for more mainstream
audiences. And like, for example, there's a big
difference between Lyra's book. and Genevieve's
book like The Witch's Heart is more accurate
to mythology in certain ways even though it's
so far removed from the mythology than Lyra's
is Lyra has like taken a very interesting spin
on things and like has has really made it what
she wanted what they want to have from the mythology
and for people who are open -minded to like wanting
to read read the mythology but not necessarily
like the mythology like those yes i really think
it depends on what you want to get out of it
what kind of what direction of book that you
you need to go with and i want to recommend like
for like basic basic just familiarity with the
myths um and i i would actually recommend kevin
crossley holland's oh yes over neil gaiman like
every day of the week because the end notes are
phenomenal. He arranges the myths in a chronological
order that gives you a sense of narrative, which
I think is really critical for people coming
to the myths themselves because it can get pretty
messy. And also I don't think he, I'm sure he
has a different bias. than Gaiman, but I'm personally
still mad that Neil Gaiman left Roskva out of
the adventure with Thialfi and Thor and Loki
to guard Loki's castle. I'm legitimately extremely
angry about it. Because here's this peasant girl.
How many peasant girls do we know who are named
in any mythology ever in any of these stories?
And she, she went on this adventure with her
God and he left her home to care for the goats.
I mean, that's kind of infuriating. I mean, I
think he's, he's written really interesting things
like, uh adam the frost giants his his yes middle
grade book yeah i've got that it's a world book
day edition he's really wonderful but i don't
think his i don't think he necessarily sees why
it's important to include everyone that's fair
point and each each reader will have their own
interpretation of it i of course i don't come
from an academic or even a pagan background.
I just come for the fun, basically. That's all
I have my life is for. I'm just here for the
fun and the games. But I do have, I don't know
if you ladies will have seen, Kevin Cross' original
pitch edition. I actually had the great pleasure
of meeting him when he came to a Yorbit Biking
Festival a couple of years ago. I think it was
probably 2019, just before the pandemic hit,
if not 2018. And I think, my one sign, I'm just
checking now. there is it yeah little little
tiny scribbles just there his autograph but he
was he was such a genuinely lovely bloke and
he got so many stories to tell not just about
north mythology but his entire life was like
one big crazy adventure not that he met royalty
i'm sure he had a story to tell about the queen
mother at one point in his conversation well
because it was where he was talking to um Gareth
Williams, a leading expert on Viking Age coins
from the British Museum. And Gareth Williams
himself was another epic figure because he was
behind the incredible, amazing Viking Age exhibition
that the British Museum did a good, oh gosh,
eight years or so ago now. But I had the pleasure
to go on because I worked at a college and I
was friends with a history teacher and he needed
another staff member to go along for the back.
welcome so off i went and it was amazing and
thankfully some of the artifacts in there were
so interesting especially there was this tiny
tiny tiny and it is like literally tiny it's
millimeters tall this figure of a female figure
possibly holding a spear or a sword and definitely
a round shield in front of her i think she's
called the oh it's got a norse name that i'm
not going to butcher because i can't pronounce
it but it's something valkyrie google it she
is tiny and the fact that she exists prompts
so many questions in my head and she could totally
be used in a story totally be used in a story
whether she's a valkyrie or whether she was Freya
or whether she meant to represent Frigg just
so much so it's nice to see those little elements
of history come through and reflect the stories
that we've all fallen in love with because alongside
her there was another tiny tiny tiny and I am
not over exaggerating it was tiny this little
figure of Odin on a throne in a female dress
which the detail definitely looks female, and
two little ravens either side of him. I thought,
oh my gosh, it's Odin in a dress! Because, of
course, he was Cedar Magic. He has Cedar Magic
and Loki at the flighting debate. Oh, that was
another fun legend. The line that stuck in my
head when he calls Raggy mere bench decoration.
Bench decoration? How insulting can you be? You
literally sit there and you decorate the bench.
You do nothing. You have no purpose at all in
my existence. You're just bench decoration. Loved
it. Oh. But I know he disses Odin for doing cedar
magic, which of course is very female oriented
because Freyja and Frigg and all the other Norns
are very good at it. But Odin's the one male
god that does it as well. And that's another
interesting reflection on how they see gender
roles and gender abilities and that kind of thing
in that society. It's coming from Loki. He's
calling Odin a woman because he does cedar magic
and yet no other god does. So it's like, it's
taboo. It's all Odin's dirty secret. We all know
he does it, but no one talks about it kind of
thing. But yeah, I think we've talked about so
much, ladies. And I really appreciated your time
joining me today on this marathon around the
nine worlds. And there is probably so much more
we could talk about, but we will have to save
it for another day. Because sadly, I've got a
feeling that my daughter will be picking up soon.
I can't leave her at nursery, otherwise I'll
kick her out and she'll be all alone on the road.
as much fun as i'm having um but i do hope you
enjoyed yourselves um please tell me if not um
um and i all i can say is i wish you a happy
north denver and may all things norse and good
come your way in future and if you do any more
north writing i'll be the first to buy it guaranteed
so thanks again you're very very welcome you're
very very welcome thank you for agreeing to this
whole crazy idea of mine so thank you to kat
rector the wonderful author of the goddess and
nothing at all available at all good bookstores
for now she's got a beautiful short story anthology
that's coming out so accompany it as well and
of course the wonderful amelia dylan who wrote
the goddess goddess sorry wrong word the daughter
the daughter of a thousand years probably just
probably just think of herself as a goddess at
times but no she doesn't she's fine but again
highly recommend and we will put in goodreads
links to all our authors and myself in the blurb
underneath this video so you viewers can go click
browse the many books you've all read or written
in this case and hopefully join us in exploring
midgard and beyond too with the craziness that
is the north guards thank you very much for watching
bye