WEBVTT 00:00:39.179 --> 00:00:42.060 Welcome everyone to Let's Talk Norse. This is 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:45.560 a crazy idea of mine I invented purely to join 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.600 in Alex's Norsevember, which is basically a huge 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:52.520 celebration of all things Norse. Go find Norsevember 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:55.350 at his blog Spells and Spaceships. um you'll 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:58.070 find links to authors youtube makers historians 00:00:58.070 --> 00:01:01.890 fiction non -fiction comics games the law it's 00:01:01.890 --> 00:01:04.670 all there and today i'm delighted to say i am 00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:07.310 joined by two of my many favorite authors all 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:11.829 on my bookshelf behind me um amalia carosella 00:01:11.829 --> 00:01:15.870 is that how i pronounced it right amalia carosella 00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:19.629 and amalia dylan I was going to say Dylan, but 00:01:19.629 --> 00:01:21.310 then I remembered on the book that we're going 00:01:21.310 --> 00:01:23.109 to talk about today, you've got your other surname. 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:25.510 Is it your actual surname or is it a pen name? 00:01:25.609 --> 00:01:28.209 I can never remember which one's which. My actual 00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:31.329 name is Amalia Dillon and I write as Amalia Carosella 00:01:31.329 --> 00:01:35.349 and as Amalia Teresa. And I write as Amalia Dillon. 00:01:35.549 --> 00:01:42.370 I live a life. I've always been fascinated by 00:01:42.370 --> 00:01:44.329 authors with pen names, but we'll certainly discuss 00:01:44.329 --> 00:01:46.549 that in a different aspect to do with North Mythology 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:49.519 coming up. And alongside Amalia, I'm joined by 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.920 the lovely Cat Rector as well. Hello, Cat. Welcome 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.400 to the show, episode, broadcast thing going on 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:58.680 on the Internet, into the wide world, into the 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:03.480 gap of YouTube. So first off, my name, I guess 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:05.500 we should introduce ourselves to whoever is watching 00:02:05.500 --> 00:02:08.039 us. Welcome, if you are. My name is Becky Hill. 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.300 I'm an ex -librarian, super solo in the college 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:13.500 sector. I'm now a senior library assistant at 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:16.800 my local university. and I have been a Norse 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.159 myth nut for many years ever since coming across 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:25.479 them in fiction mainly in the forms of Neil Gaiman's 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.240 American Gods and then it just spiraled on from 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.439 there and then I've just grown to love all things 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:32.669 Viking I'm a regular pilgrimage to the Jorvik 00:02:32.669 --> 00:02:35.030 Viking Festival, where once a year they did celebrate 00:02:35.030 --> 00:02:37.590 all things Norse myths, so that was my heaven, 00:02:37.770 --> 00:02:40.310 that was my annual pilgrimage. And I just love 00:02:40.310 --> 00:02:42.909 to talk things Norse, hence the name of our show, 00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:45.849 Let's Talk Norse. So, ladies, would each of you 00:02:45.849 --> 00:02:47.789 like to introduce yourselves and, of course, 00:02:47.849 --> 00:02:50.330 your wonderful works of Norse fantasy, which 00:02:50.330 --> 00:02:53.969 we will be discussing today? Amelia, we should 00:02:53.969 --> 00:02:58.990 go first, A to Z. Sure. So, as Amalia Dillon, 00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:02.409 I'm an author of fantasy, mythic fantasy, and 00:03:02.409 --> 00:03:04.870 fantasy romance, including a couple of titles 00:03:04.870 --> 00:03:11.530 that feature Thor, Ullr, Delfi, Thor's bondservant. 00:03:13.270 --> 00:03:16.210 And as Amalia Carosella, I'm the author of Daughter 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:18.449 of a Thousand Years, which is a dual timeline, 00:03:18.849 --> 00:03:24.409 historical and contemporary, which features... 00:03:25.699 --> 00:03:32.199 Eric the Red's daughter, Freitas, and the story 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:36.080 of the Greenlanders who travel across the sea 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:43.240 to what we now know is Canada. So yeah, I do 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.020 a lot of writing and I do a lot of Norse myth 00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:52.289 related writing. I'm also a pagan and Thor is 00:03:52.289 --> 00:03:55.689 one of my patron gods, so it has a really personal 00:03:55.689 --> 00:04:01.310 meaning for me. Brilliant. Well, thank you very 00:04:01.310 --> 00:04:04.469 much for joining me today. Cat Rector, please 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:07.449 introduce yourself. This is always the hardest 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:12.610 part, right? Who are you as a person? I wrote 00:04:12.610 --> 00:04:15.830 some books, not as many as Amalia, but I know 00:04:15.830 --> 00:04:20.360 she's shocked me. I wrote The Goddess of Nothing 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:22.980 at All. It is a Norse myth retelling from the 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:28.100 eyes of Sigyn Loki's wife. And it is a dark fantasy 00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:32.019 that pairs well with tissues and chocolate and 00:04:32.019 --> 00:04:35.160 is going to be a little dark for some people's 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:36.879 taste. But some people tell me it's not dark 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.959 enough. So, you know, there is a paradox. It 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.939 is actually a year old as of first and well, 00:04:45.980 --> 00:04:47.819 first of October, I suppose we're delaying the 00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:50.759 release of this. First of October, it was a year 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.399 old and I am still trying to get used to being 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:56.779 an author, which is a fabulous, crazy journey. 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:00.060 And I have been really enjoying it. And yeah, 00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:04.639 I live in Canada and I'm getting used to the 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:08.620 winter again. And I'm sure that that's. cause 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:10.959 more books to be written because I will be trapped 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:15.860 inside well I as a humble fan of both of you 00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:17.980 implore you to write more because I love both 00:05:17.980 --> 00:05:20.860 your works so it's always good always good you'll 00:05:20.860 --> 00:05:22.579 always have my money coming your way for more 00:05:22.579 --> 00:05:24.959 books it's fine I'll fuel you through the winter 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:32.740 so um let's just begin at beginning so I would 00:05:32.740 --> 00:05:35.720 love to know how each of you encountered Norse 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:38.160 mythology, at what point in your life, in what 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.180 form, what medium, and what captured your imagination 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:45.480 then that has led you to where you are now in 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.360 terms of writing Norse fantasy. Amalia, let us 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.519 start with you, assuming you are a self -proclaimed 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:56.779 pagan. my pagans in my country are always a bit 00:05:56.779 --> 00:05:58.800 i'm like are you really a pagan or is it just 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.819 a cool nickname you apply to yourself and just 00:06:00.819 --> 00:06:02.500 like the fashion like the amulets and that kind 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:04.680 of thing so it's nice actually to speak to someone 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:08.660 who's genuinely knows about it because i honestly 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:10.959 don't and that's part of my ignorance in my own 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:15.819 country well i mean i came to to paganry and 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:22.269 later later um but i i did Growing up, my mother 00:06:22.269 --> 00:06:24.589 was obsessed with mythology. She loved mythology. 00:06:24.930 --> 00:06:30.050 She's actually a theologian. She has her master's 00:06:30.050 --> 00:06:34.410 in theology. I grew up in a household that was 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:38.129 very invested in mythology. From the biblical 00:06:38.129 --> 00:06:40.410 perspective, my mother also had a great passion 00:06:40.410 --> 00:06:45.250 for classical myth and Egyptian myth. And I feel 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:48.230 like I had a sense of the Norse mythology also, 00:06:48.389 --> 00:06:50.529 though that wasn't necessarily her favorite. 00:06:52.389 --> 00:06:56.730 So I always had a lot of mythology in my life. 00:06:57.410 --> 00:07:02.920 And I had a cousin. My cousin Paul, who will 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:06.160 probably enjoy or not getting this shout out, 00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:11.759 he really loved Thor, like the Marvel Comics 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.720 Thor. Like he really loved Thor. And I remember 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.639 sitting across from him at the kids table during 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:21.319 like Sunday dinners and family holidays. And 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:24.439 he was always talking about Thor and what was 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:26.740 happening in the comic books. And I mean, that 00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:31.360 didn't really... penetrate into me until I was 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:36.579 a teenager and then I started reading it. I got 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:41.339 really into the Ultimate Comics and Ultimate 00:07:41.339 --> 00:07:47.480 Thor's story and they presented him as this environmentalist 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:53.180 save the whales. He's out on a boat going to 00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:55.920 take somebody down because they're hunting whales 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.379 or whatever. the idea of thor as someone who 00:07:59.379 --> 00:08:02.480 was really invested in protecting the earth like 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.699 that really resonated for me and i don't know 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:08.079 that marvel really always knows what they're 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:13.620 doing with with thor but every once in a while 00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:16.500 you get these little pieces these little aspects 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:19.819 that really make a lot of sense and it's just 00:08:19.819 --> 00:08:23.199 an invitation right like an invitation to learn 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:27.870 more about the mythology and the god and and 00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:31.889 the stories behind these stories. And then, of 00:08:31.889 --> 00:08:33.629 course, I went to school in North Dakota, which 00:08:33.629 --> 00:08:38.970 is deeply Scandinavian and Germanic. So you can't 00:08:38.970 --> 00:08:42.649 really avoid the exposure to Norse mythology. 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:45.629 I took a course on Norse mythology when I was 00:08:45.629 --> 00:08:55.610 at school. And then I read J. Michael Straczynski's 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.799 relaunch of the Thor title for Marvel and there 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:03.159 was one line that really just it hooked me for 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.879 the rest of my life and it said it is not for 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:12.240 God to decide whether or not man exists it is 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:17.019 for man to decide whether the gods exist and 00:09:17.019 --> 00:09:21.340 up to this point I've been having a lot of experiences 00:09:21.340 --> 00:09:25.299 that I didn't really understand because I was 00:09:25.659 --> 00:09:30.779 catholic trying to be catholic um but at that 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:34.840 moment i knew that it was my choice to either 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:38.440 accept that there was this god knocking on my 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:43.039 subconscious door or just ignore it and continue 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.679 on my merry way and and at that point i like 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:49.080 i knew i knew the gods existed i knew thor was 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.419 there something real was happening and it was 00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:56.320 a moment when art And Norse myth really just 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:58.659 kind of shook the foundation of my entire life. 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:03.779 And that was it. I was done for. Norse myth for 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:07.679 life. Thor for life. We need those slogans on 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:15.779 a t -shirt. Just saying. Well, did you yourself 00:10:15.779 --> 00:10:18.700 seek out any kind of retellings or interpretations 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:21.919 of the mythology since that particular moment? 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.379 Oh, yeah. I mean, I've read the Edas and I read 00:10:26.379 --> 00:10:28.299 basically everything I can get my hands on. I 00:10:28.299 --> 00:10:35.320 read American Gods. I read Greg Van Eekhout's 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:42.379 Norse Code. I read some of the sagas in addition 00:10:42.379 --> 00:10:44.940 to the Edas. The saga of the Volsungs particularly 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:52.120 I love. I think it's just fantastic. So I did 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.620 do a lot of, we like to say, primary source reading 00:10:56.620 --> 00:11:04.919 after, but Marvel was my way in. I mean, I feel 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:08.799 a little silly saying that, but it doesn't really 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.320 matter as long as you get where you need to be. 00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:15.980 I'm grateful that Marvel opened the door for 00:11:15.980 --> 00:11:17.840 me to be able to recognize what was happening 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.409 in my life. Absolutely. I mean, there's pros 00:11:21.409 --> 00:11:26.049 and cons with a lot of how such old stories like 00:11:26.049 --> 00:11:29.750 these are, are remastered, retold, revived, adapted. 00:11:30.409 --> 00:11:33.549 And it's just, if anything, it's a triumph of 00:11:33.549 --> 00:11:36.590 the human imagination, how many ways we can recreate 00:11:36.590 --> 00:11:39.110 and reshape and reinterpret things and just keep 00:11:39.110 --> 00:11:41.789 them going and going and going and going. And 00:11:41.789 --> 00:11:45.009 me personally, as well as kind of encountering 00:11:45.009 --> 00:11:47.730 North American gods, I think it's really the 00:11:47.730 --> 00:11:50.620 first. and I hate to say this, only Neil Gaiman 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:53.519 book I've read. I've read lots of others. Others, 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.139 I've just got too many Neil, I'm sorry. But ultimately, 00:11:57.220 --> 00:11:58.940 it was the history that led me to the mythology, 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:01.840 because I remember reading Bernard Cornwall's 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.620 now sadly finished Anglo -Saxon Chronicles with 00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:06.559 Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:08.700 Uhtred, son of Uhtred, son of Uhtred. Fans will 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:12.559 know the joke there. And hearing his characters 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:16.000 talk about the myth so vividly and animatedly, 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.009 like... because they did so utterly believe it 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:21.690 and it made sense to them in how they understood 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:24.629 how the world worked yeah there's something so 00:12:24.629 --> 00:12:27.169 cool about these gods because i often describe 00:12:27.169 --> 00:12:29.850 them to many of my friends and family who are 00:12:29.850 --> 00:12:32.809 totally not on my level with this kind of eagerness 00:12:32.809 --> 00:12:36.570 i said they're basically people who've got access 00:12:36.570 --> 00:12:39.769 to life -prolonging fruit and a few magical toys 00:12:39.769 --> 00:12:42.769 thrown in that's it if you take away Eden's apples 00:12:42.769 --> 00:12:45.539 they effectively age maybe a lot dramatically 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:48.120 quicker than we do but then that's it they're 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.379 done they're gone and they have so many human 00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:53.120 flaws and that is what i we lived about them 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.159 and i remember finding a book on north mythology 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:57.519 in the library and making a map of the family 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.480 tree to work out who was whose cousin and him 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.700 down in his nine months that never made any sense 00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:07.700 um and then i encountered norse fantasy as well 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:10.519 as neil gaiman but in another favourite of mine 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:13.960 the always lovely joanne harris in her runemark 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.019 series and then of course she's since written 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:18.080 the gospel of loki and the testament of loki 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:23.820 and yeah i think she's got another one coming 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:27.899 out hopefully soon fingers crossed um but yeah 00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.850 she she she brought out Rune Marx at the same 00:13:30.850 --> 00:13:33.210 time I was doing my English studies with a creative 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:35.250 writing degree and trying to write my own Norse 00:13:35.250 --> 00:13:37.730 fantasy. It didn't work out, I'm not quite the 00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:39.769 next AK Rowling ladies I'm afraid so you're way 00:13:39.769 --> 00:13:41.809 ahead of me, way ahead of me, don't worry I'm 00:13:41.809 --> 00:13:45.230 not going to upvote you anytime soon. But just 00:13:45.230 --> 00:13:48.330 the way she wrote it set in an alternative future 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:51.289 and how it linked to order and almost like a 00:13:51.289 --> 00:13:53.799 slight nod to Catholicism. In that sense, it 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:55.240 was just wonderful. And then I've been on the 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.659 hunt for more ever since. So I've read Greg's 00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:00.700 book. That was really interesting. In particular, 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.059 my fascination was with the Valkyrie characters 00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:06.559 because I remember coming across them in my lovely 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:09.039 Collins Dictionary of Old Norse. And we have 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.299 a list of names and their slight meanings. And 00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:13.720 then that's it. Who were they? Where did they 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:15.740 come from? What are they doing there? Are they 00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:18.919 gods? Are they not gods? Did they get paid? Do 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.370 they train the Ein Harajah? Do they not? Are 00:14:22.370 --> 00:14:24.230 they under Odin or are they under Freyja? Because 00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:25.730 they're kind of a bit of both. And then one of 00:14:25.730 --> 00:14:27.909 the Norns is also a Valkyrie at the same time 00:14:27.909 --> 00:14:29.909 because she goes out and picks the dead. So it 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:32.269 was all really lots of questions. And I think 00:14:32.269 --> 00:14:35.590 that's what captured my mind. But anyway, I will 00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:38.169 not neglect our other guest. Kat, please, sorry. 00:14:38.309 --> 00:14:40.509 Please answer your question. If you can remember 00:14:40.509 --> 00:14:45.649 what it was. If we're not going on nerdily for 00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:47.309 a long period of time, what are we even doing 00:14:47.309 --> 00:14:50.210 here? Right. Yeah. Agree. The way it's true. 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:57.720 Yeah. uh for me like as a kid Norse myths kept 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:00.460 popping up in these little ways like in retrospect 00:15:00.460 --> 00:15:04.539 I can see them like just popping up like little 00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:07.879 moles out of the ground in like games I was playing 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:12.980 or media that I was taking in um and then I kind 00:15:12.980 --> 00:15:15.440 of got more serious about it when the Marvel 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.059 movies started coming out and like just kind 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:23.850 of That was the thing that laser focused me. 00:15:24.029 --> 00:15:28.809 But on the opposite side, I didn't laser focus 00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:32.929 on Thor. I was laser focused on Loki. And I was 00:15:32.929 --> 00:15:38.330 one of those girls. But as well, like I knew 00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:40.190 that there was something to it. Like for me, 00:15:40.370 --> 00:15:44.600 villains are always really compelling. Because 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.879 a lot of them have those underdog stories. As 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.419 a young teen, my thing was Spike from Buffy. 00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:58.179 It's that punky, I would literally kill and die 00:15:58.179 --> 00:16:01.539 for you kind of thing. There's something about 00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:06.919 characters who have tragic pasts, who at one 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:10.259 point were an underdog, who seem to be misunderstood. 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.309 That gets me right in the heart. I spent a lot 00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:16.950 of time going back after the Thor and Avengers 00:16:16.950 --> 00:16:20.529 movies were out, reading a bunch of the old -age 00:16:20.529 --> 00:16:25.090 comics and probably not to the depth that Amalia 00:16:25.090 --> 00:16:27.570 might have done. I read them, but I didn't look 00:16:27.570 --> 00:16:32.889 in them. I have no memory for anything. Three 00:16:32.889 --> 00:16:36.990 months later, it's gone. But I did that for a 00:16:36.990 --> 00:16:41.839 long time and then kind of let it drop. Then 00:16:41.839 --> 00:16:45.220 when I was in my mid -20s, I moved overseas and 00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:46.779 I was in Belgium for a while. And there was like 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:49.580 a full year where I wasn't working and I didn't 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:51.639 know anybody and I had a hard time making connections. 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.480 And I just, I read Neil Gaiman's retelling and 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.240 then started to have all these questions. And 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.700 I had not read the source material yet. And I 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.660 was like, okay, well, the answers have to be 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:09.750 somewhere, right? They don't have to be anywhere 00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:13.390 and are in fact nowhere. But I kept having all 00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.089 of these like cause and effect questions, especially 00:17:16.089 --> 00:17:20.069 regarding like Loki from the perspective of like, 00:17:20.210 --> 00:17:23.690 well, if I had this happen to me, I would probably 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:29.130 also be mad. So like what morality is always 00:17:29.130 --> 00:17:31.509 a big question for me, not specifically here, 00:17:31.650 --> 00:17:33.410 but like in general, when I'm reading books, 00:17:33.450 --> 00:17:36.509 like why does a person choose to do the things 00:17:36.509 --> 00:17:39.180 that they do? And so I just kept digging into 00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:45.160 that and not finding any answers. So as a person 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.779 who, you know, as a teen existed in like fandom, 00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:51.680 you make your own answers, right? Like you write 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.380 your own fanfic and then you answer your questions. 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:58.279 You can move on with your life. I could not move 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:05.829 on with my life. What started out as a... thing 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:09.910 to do to keep me busy while I was like pre -COVID 00:18:09.910 --> 00:18:13.410 isolated turned into a four -year journey to 00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:16.829 publishing a book and the first draft was absolute 00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:20.309 garbage because I really was just trying to like 00:18:20.309 --> 00:18:22.769 just get out those frustrations of not having 00:18:22.769 --> 00:18:25.170 the answers to these things that like we never 00:18:25.170 --> 00:18:28.490 have like we might never uncover a piece of paper 00:18:28.490 --> 00:18:31.069 that gives us that answer I was like I can't 00:18:31.069 --> 00:18:35.480 live with it I can't live with that so Yeah, 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:40.819 that's kind of my journey with it. I am very 00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:43.980 vaguely spiritual. I don't have the discipline 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:47.519 to have any kind of, like, regardless of which 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.960 religion, I have no discipline for that kind 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.420 of thing. I would make a very bad pagan person. 00:18:54.460 --> 00:19:00.279 But I have a deep respect for paganism and for 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.829 the... um for the folklore that goes along with 00:19:03.829 --> 00:19:06.549 it and i hope to someday be in the position where 00:19:06.549 --> 00:19:09.069 i think we go to these festivals i i went to 00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:11.190 castle fest a few times and was able to kind 00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:14.470 of observe and and pay my respects that way because 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:19.329 it's like it is a like um it's a festival in 00:19:19.329 --> 00:19:22.650 uh near amsterdam where it's kind of like a run 00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:25.210 fair but they also have like pagan activities 00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:27.869 and places for people to go and and do those 00:19:27.869 --> 00:19:30.269 kinds of more serious things not just dressing 00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:33.589 up like a dragon for fun um and that was really 00:19:33.589 --> 00:19:38.329 nice to be able to observe um I just wish that 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:39.970 I was the kind of person who had that kind of 00:19:39.970 --> 00:19:46.630 um discipline and god I don't even know how to 00:19:46.630 --> 00:19:50.210 describe it I'm just a very very unorganized 00:19:50.210 --> 00:19:54.359 person unless I'm writing a book I can relate 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.460 to that. There's no harm in being who you are, 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.579 Kat, none at all. I mean, I like to think that 00:20:00.579 --> 00:20:02.900 in the way that you and all the other authors 00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:04.980 that I have read and I adore, particularly when 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.200 dealing with this pantheon, are honouring the 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.640 gods just by retelling their stories, giving 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:11.680 us a new twist, giving us a new angle, because 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.559 you don't often see people retelling or rewriting 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:20.160 Greek mythology or Roman mythology or Aztec mythology 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.119 or... hindu mythology or persian mythology or 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.259 that kind of thing it does tend to be norse something 00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:30.019 about being norse and the north pantheon has 00:20:30.019 --> 00:20:33.779 just captured a universal imagination it's amazing 00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:37.680 how popular it is outside of the northern hemisphere 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:43.660 kind of thing um so we all know now why we love 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:45.980 and how we got into norse mythology is there 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:53.980 a each of you and I'm going to do it in reverse 00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:56.359 order so Kat you can now take over and then we'll 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.599 go to get back to Amalia. I think it will shock 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.579 no one if I say that Loki was the thing that 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.799 brought me really heavily into this you know 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.619 and it started as that Marvel nerd thing but 00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:16.640 evolved into a lot of the questions that I had 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.039 about the morality the cause and effect like 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.180 if Loki does X and then Odin does Y and then 00:21:23.180 --> 00:21:27.019 the result is Zed, like, what does that look 00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:31.079 like from the other perspective? And it's funny 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:33.319 because it kind of comes, there's this conversation 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.460 that's had in a lot of book communities now about, 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.599 like, if you write about something, do you, like, 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:42.640 advocate for that? And, like, I definitely don't 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.519 advocate for the end of the world. Gosh, that 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.480 is an interesting question. Yeah, like, you know, 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.259 if you're writing true crime, do you advocate 00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:53.140 for murder? No, probably not, right? So in that 00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:58.000 respect, like, it's more for me about looking 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.559 at why people do things. And despite these, like, 00:22:02.619 --> 00:22:06.359 Loki and the other gods being gods, the Norse 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:10.420 pantheon has such a human aspect to it. There's 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:14.920 a lot of people making very human mistakes. human 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:18.200 choices based on human motivation and that's 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.759 like that's what really um drew me into a lot 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:25.359 of this uh specifically with loki like so many 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.660 of the the myths revolve around choices that 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:31.559 he made or choices that were made for him or 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.279 things like that and so that really drew me in 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.799 but as well as i was like digging into that pre 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:44.640 pre -serious writing um a lot of the stuff that 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.000 i was seeing around loki about being like a god 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.200 being worshipped for his his their her queer 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:56.240 identity that was very um interesting for me 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.920 because at the time i was also struggling with 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:03.720 that um and so kind of looking through the myths 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:06.140 and looking through what people had written um 00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:09.920 different uh papers from universities that had 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.130 talked about loki as a queer patron saint kind 00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:21.309 of character of Loki's identity of like the myths 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:23.609 where we're talking about cross -dressing and 00:23:23.609 --> 00:23:25.609 changing into a woman and things like that like 00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:28.930 it was all very interesting to me as someone 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:32.809 who wasn't quite sure what I was at that time 00:23:32.809 --> 00:23:37.349 and so it kind of in in writing those stories 00:23:37.349 --> 00:23:40.869 let me also explore my own identity what I thought 00:23:40.869 --> 00:23:44.789 about myself And it turned out not to be Loki 00:23:44.789 --> 00:23:49.569 that I identified with in the end. But yeah, 00:23:49.690 --> 00:23:53.130 the morality and the queerness of the characters, 00:23:53.309 --> 00:23:58.460 that's what really drew me in. And what made 00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:01.039 you decide to write from Sigyn's point of view 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.720 in your wonderful book, Goddess, Nothing at All, 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:05.680 which I highly recommend to buy from all good 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.579 bookstores. Definitely get tissues, chocolate 00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:10.940 and maybe a cuddly toy at the same time. Something 00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:13.519 to cuddle through the anguish and the pain, but 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.319 also to cuddle in the joy moments. So, yes, tell 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.799 us, how did you first come across Sigyn and what 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.700 sparked her voice for you to tell her story? 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:27.849 combination of things because I was looking to 00:24:27.849 --> 00:24:33.369 write something around Loki but I am unintentionally 00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:36.089 but forever that hipster who doesn't want to 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:39.769 do what's popular so I was like I want to write 00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:42.769 around this but I don't want to write what everybody 00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:44.529 is writing like I don't want to just write another 00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:48.049 Loki story because it's you know been done and 00:24:48.049 --> 00:24:51.579 I know that that doesn't matter but Five years 00:24:51.579 --> 00:24:55.160 ago, as a younger hipster, it mattered to me. 00:24:55.460 --> 00:25:02.140 And I wanted to find an angle. And so I'm looking 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:06.720 around for different things. And Sigan is someone 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:08.799 who at that time, there wasn't really another 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.839 book out. There was, I think, maybe one very 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.740 pagan central book that had been written about 00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:15.920 her. And I think that's the only thing I could 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.880 find at that time with my meager research skills. 00:25:21.399 --> 00:25:23.740 And so I was like, okay, well, this is an angle 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:25.700 I can work from. Why don't I like start seeing 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:29.680 what I can do with it? And it grew into something 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.539 more because the more I looked up what was known 00:25:33.539 --> 00:25:37.460 or what was part of like the pagan perspective 00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:43.799 on Sigan, like it was a lot of stories that really 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.460 didn't give her any agency, like that she was 00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.500 the better wife, that she was a child bride. 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:53.380 And things like that. And I just, it felt kind 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:57.119 of unfair. And, you know, the truth can be those 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.460 things, right? That can be the story. But as 00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:03.380 well, you know, having come from reading a bunch 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:06.460 of different mythologies written from the perspective 00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:09.059 of a female character who didn't get any agency 00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:13.720 up until that point, like Cersei, I was like, 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.619 okay, well, you know, I could theoretically give 00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:20.319 this character some agency. And if Loki is so 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:23.240 handsome and so smart, it stands to reason he 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:26.319 might also have a wife that he likes, not just 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:29.519 someone he wants to beat down. You can still 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:31.700 be evil and not beat your wife, right? Like the 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:34.440 two things don't have to be mutual experiences. 00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:38.099 So I just kept trying to figure out how that 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.500 would work. And it took me like a good two years 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:44.039 to figure out who Sigan was and what I thought 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:49.190 she should be and like how her. Like Loki is 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:52.849 a chaos character, right? So if he is chaos and 00:26:52.849 --> 00:26:56.410 we see these different mythologies that it's 00:26:56.410 --> 00:27:00.190 like light marries dark, earth marries sky, that 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:02.970 kind of thing. Like what is she to him in opposition? 00:27:03.309 --> 00:27:08.789 And so I made her a very high strung academic 00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:17.859 that seemed correct. But yeah, it just. I want 00:27:17.859 --> 00:27:20.019 to say it just kind of happened, but it kind 00:27:20.019 --> 00:27:23.160 of happened slowly over a long period of time. 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.079 Well, I think you've done a wonderful job in 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:31.980 giving her a voice and giving her more of a story, 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.539 because the title you've picked for that book, 00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:37.299 The Goddess of Nothing at All, is so apt for 00:27:37.299 --> 00:27:40.839 singing in mythology, even on a generic, basic 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:44.420 101 level. And that all we know is that that's 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:46.339 her name. She's the wife of Loki. We don't know 00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:48.039 how they met. We don't know when they were married. 00:27:48.259 --> 00:27:50.319 We don't know when they had the children. All 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.160 we know is that she's the poor unfortunate soul, 00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:55.859 to quote Little Mermaid, to have been roped into 00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:58.660 this chaotic family of a pantheon and then to 00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:02.299 suffer the most absolute heartbreaking way at 00:28:02.299 --> 00:28:04.720 the end of it. Because, yes, Loki brings about 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.960 Ragnarok, but so many people, I think this is 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:09.940 the thing that Marvel nearly needs to capture 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:13.619 properly, is that... loki was punished before 00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:15.259 he brought the end of the world he did suffer 00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:17.940 a lot who would want to be under a dripping poison 00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:21.940 snake nobody nobody at all um and poor sigin's 00:28:21.940 --> 00:28:25.240 there holding the ball um and i like i'd like 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:33.380 that as well that she she's i'm trying to think 00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:35.279 of how best to describe how i felt her she's 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:41.019 she's almost she's got these constant struggles 00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:43.319 which have given her so many struggles both before 00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.279 she meets Loki and from other people besides 00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.500 Loki himself with all the trouble that he brings 00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:52.859 but as much as she sometimes crumbles when she's 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:55.819 met against that brick wall of nope that can't 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:58.680 happen on refusal and public shame and that kind 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:02.140 of thing it does almost make her heart turn into 00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:04.599 a obsidian or like a diamond it just gives her 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.460 that inner core strength that she somehow does 00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:09.700 rely on in those final chapters in those final 00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:12.220 moments to put her through so as much as she 00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:15.460 doesn't think that she's made the life that she 00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:18.519 wanted from the start of the book it has made 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.779 her into the person she is that's how I felt 00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:23.480 anyway after reading the book I'm trying not 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.180 to give away too many spoilers please go away 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:26.980 and buy it all good bookstores people thank you 00:29:30.329 --> 00:29:32.150 It's charming to hear that because like Sigan 00:29:32.150 --> 00:29:35.490 is kind of the amalgamation as well of a lot 00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:37.789 of the women that I know in my life who have 00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:40.430 come up against a lot and have had spouses that 00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:45.089 were challenging. And some people have, you know, 00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:47.569 you get wind of a review or something. It's like, 00:29:47.609 --> 00:29:50.750 oh, it's not realistic. I'm like, well, the women 00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:52.450 in my life would tell you that it's realistic. 00:29:52.910 --> 00:29:55.950 But, you know. But you'll never have someone 00:29:55.950 --> 00:29:58.509 agree, right? There's never going to be a universal 00:29:58.509 --> 00:30:00.609 agreement to find that people don't feel realistic. 00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:04.849 As well, some people come up against a lot of 00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:09.250 challenges. So it's nice to kind of have that 00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:13.190 come through. I mean, I know I've told you personally 00:30:13.190 --> 00:30:15.710 on Twitter that some of the scenes around her 00:30:15.710 --> 00:30:17.670 being pregnant and going through motherhood, 00:30:17.710 --> 00:30:21.509 I can totally relate that to. I mean, I certainly 00:30:21.509 --> 00:30:23.369 didn't have the lovely family network of friends 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:26.799 that she did. not even divine ones because of 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.599 course my pregnancy was throughout our first 00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:32.579 period of lockdown back in 2020 so i had it was 00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:34.700 a relatively easy pregnancy in that i wasn't 00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:37.160 traveling all over town for work and stuff i 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:38.740 just had to get out of bed and go to the next 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:41.519 room and there i was at work but it did have 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.619 that isolationism and of course how she went 00:30:44.619 --> 00:30:49.509 through the first birth because of various reasons 00:30:49.509 --> 00:30:51.309 that i'm not going to spoil loki wasn't there 00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:53.509 that's a whole other legend and myth and topic 00:30:53.509 --> 00:30:55.650 we will get onto shortly i'm not missing that 00:30:55.650 --> 00:30:59.450 opportunity um but yes i thought he did really 00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:00.990 well and the thing that i was thinking of last 00:31:00.990 --> 00:31:05.269 night ahead of this recording session was actually 00:31:05.269 --> 00:31:08.450 her relationship with loki and the problems he 00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:10.950 brings and the problem then she then faces because 00:31:10.950 --> 00:31:15.319 of it it made me think back to my mum and my 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.299 dad's relationship because my dad was an alcoholic 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:22.400 long story short it started in my teenage years 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.880 and basically ended in with him having a second 00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:29.220 stroke that was the fatal one um in 26 you know 00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:32.700 2015 he died just before i got married um and 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.000 my mum absolutely worshipped the ground he lived 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.460 on no matter how many family conferences we had 00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:40.619 no many times me and my siblings poured our hearts 00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:42.960 i say look he's doing this he's doing this and 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.940 it's hurting us not never physical it was all 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:48.480 emotional kind of thing just the sight of having 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.019 your dad going up the stairs kind of thing um 00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:55.220 drunken and not in a very upright manner to put 00:31:55.220 --> 00:32:00.000 it politely um she would always will him to try 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:01.980 and change and always will him to do the next 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:05.839 best thing and in a way that's almost like the 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.180 relationship singing and lucky i've got because 00:32:07.180 --> 00:32:10.019 he's almost an addict for trouble for chaos for 00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:12.339 breaking the rules and even though you're wanting 00:32:12.339 --> 00:32:14.799 him to be a good person and be a good boy and 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:18.319 do all what odin says kind of thing he will he'll 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.599 find his way around thing and then we have the 00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:21.940 concept and then we've got the whole kind of 00:32:21.940 --> 00:32:24.910 like kind of like the grievance then the anger 00:32:24.910 --> 00:32:27.190 and then the acceptance and the hope of redemption 00:32:27.190 --> 00:32:29.250 and then the whole cycle continues and that did 00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:31.569 make me think a lot about my parents relationship 00:32:31.569 --> 00:32:37.950 and so i think there is almost that um what's 00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:41.910 the word spouse and addict kind of problem going 00:32:41.910 --> 00:32:44.069 on and it can be addiction of all sorts and i 00:32:44.069 --> 00:32:45.769 think you captured that really well but that's 00:32:45.769 --> 00:32:48.150 how it came across to me from my background other 00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:49.650 readers might not have had that because they 00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:52.180 haven't had the lovely background that i've got 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:55.700 behind me at the moment but that was really good 00:32:55.700 --> 00:32:59.400 um i know i was because of course where i live 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.319 being in england we have the wonderful york the 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.880 proud capital of the danelaw back in the days 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.940 when vikings were around um they had a lovely 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:11.200 community performance on over august and it was 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:14.880 called oh my gosh where is it i've got it somewhere 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.990 bear with bear with bear with The Coppergate 00:33:20.990 --> 00:33:23.589 Woman. It was actually inspired by the woman 00:33:23.589 --> 00:33:26.769 or a skeleton of woman remains that were found 00:33:26.769 --> 00:33:28.450 in the Coppergate dig where the Jorvik Viking 00:33:28.450 --> 00:33:31.509 Museum is based and they decided to give her 00:33:31.509 --> 00:33:34.609 a life, give her a story and she basically became 00:33:34.609 --> 00:33:37.930 reanimated and alive in the museum and wondered 00:33:37.930 --> 00:33:40.049 where everyone was because the play was set in 00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:42.069 lockdown so no people were there looking at her 00:33:42.069 --> 00:33:44.660 remains. And the Norns appear and say, oh, you 00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:46.420 know, Valkyrie, you've got to go sort the people 00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:48.799 out there in kind of like great dire emotional 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.700 distress. And it's because of pandemic and lockdown 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.640 and stuff. And one of the characters that she 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.000 meets and tries to help through actually comes 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:59.299 across as Sigyn, which I was really delighted 00:33:59.299 --> 00:34:01.200 for because it's the only other time I've met 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.000 Sigyn in any form, in any literature or medium 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.099 besides just the occasional reference or appearance 00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:09.119 in Norse fantasy. Because even in the other Loki 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.690 books I've read. Sigyn doesn't have that much 00:34:11.690 --> 00:34:14.170 of a role. The centre spotlight is purely on 00:34:14.170 --> 00:34:17.090 Loki, and sometimes more often Angerboda, but 00:34:17.090 --> 00:34:19.809 never often Sigyn. So thank you very much, Kat, 00:34:19.989 --> 00:34:22.730 for giving her a voice. I'm sure wherever she 00:34:22.730 --> 00:34:27.590 is, she'll be raising a horn of mead. But yes, 00:34:27.650 --> 00:34:29.989 I so wish people like yourselves were around 00:34:29.989 --> 00:34:31.889 when that play was on, because sadly it was like 00:34:31.889 --> 00:34:33.630 a once -in -a -lifetime performance, because 00:34:33.630 --> 00:34:35.250 it's just done with a few members of the community, 00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:37.210 but I was so lucky to have seen it, and it was 00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:39.130 wonderful. I wish they could have put it on DVD. 00:34:39.630 --> 00:34:43.969 But they don't. So moving on from Sigyn, we're 00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:46.969 going to another fantastic female superhero slash 00:34:46.969 --> 00:34:49.829 character, which is Freydis, the daughter of 00:34:49.829 --> 00:34:52.230 Erik the Red in Amalia's wonderful book, Daughter 00:34:52.230 --> 00:34:54.630 of a Thousand Years, her beautiful time narrative, 00:34:54.909 --> 00:34:59.510 which delves into the whole issue of belief and 00:34:59.510 --> 00:35:01.769 sticking to one's true goals and the opposing 00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:04.110 forces around it. And again, it's from a very 00:35:04.110 --> 00:35:08.289 woman against the world point of view. So Amalia, 00:35:08.449 --> 00:35:12.469 how... What idea sparked this book besides maybe 00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:21.550 your own background? Well, actually, I had just 00:35:21.550 --> 00:35:25.469 written Helen of Sparta and By Helen's Hand, 00:35:25.650 --> 00:35:28.409 which were Greek myth retellings of Helen of 00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:32.530 Troy's story before the Trojan War. And the market 00:35:32.530 --> 00:35:35.530 turned. And my publisher, I still had a book 00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:40.010 under contract. My publisher said, hmm. we need 00:35:40.010 --> 00:35:43.449 you to write something different that isn't Bronze 00:35:43.449 --> 00:35:48.130 Age, Greek myth, whatever. And I said, okay, 00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:53.329 let me think about it. And I put together kind 00:35:53.329 --> 00:35:56.289 of a short list of things. And then I realized, 00:35:56.489 --> 00:36:02.110 you know what, this is the book. I wanted to 00:36:02.110 --> 00:36:09.000 tell a story of a woman of faith. that, like, 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:15.059 outside of Christianity, right? So, and I thought 00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:18.940 to myself, well, you know, Freitas is in Greenland 00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:21.239 with her father, and she and her father are the 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:27.139 last pagans in Greenland. Leaf the Lucky has 00:36:27.139 --> 00:36:30.019 been tasked by King Olaf to convert the whole 00:36:30.019 --> 00:36:34.000 colony in Greenland to Christianity. And it's 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.380 basically Freitas and her father against the 00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:42.000 tide of Christianity that has washed up onto 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:48.699 their shores. And I thought, you know, the obvious 00:36:48.699 --> 00:36:53.699 parallel to me is because I needed to do a dual 00:36:53.699 --> 00:36:59.519 narrative because that was the thing at the time 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:04.800 when I was writing it. It was really big. And 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:09.320 I thought, like, the obvious parallel to me was 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:11.980 the daughter of someone who is politically involved, 00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:15.119 because Eric the Red, he ran that. Like, he was 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:20.199 the chief, basically, of Greenland. So I wanted 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:25.719 to do the daughter of a congressman who was also 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:34.409 pagan in a Christian Catholic community. Because 00:37:34.409 --> 00:37:37.489 I felt like that's, it's really interesting to 00:37:37.489 --> 00:37:42.650 me to see that these are the same, you're seeing 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:46.829 the same struggles, right? As a pagan in the 00:37:46.829 --> 00:37:51.929 modern world, today, we're immersed in this Christian 00:37:51.929 --> 00:37:56.829 first place in the United States. I can't speak 00:37:56.829 --> 00:38:00.409 to other countries. I know that there are other 00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:02.309 countries that... the predominant religion is 00:38:02.309 --> 00:38:05.030 a different religion. But in the United States, 00:38:05.110 --> 00:38:10.570 it's a Christian tide and you don't really know 00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:13.789 you're in it until you're trying to swim in the 00:38:13.789 --> 00:38:18.889 other direction. And I think the difference between 00:38:18.889 --> 00:38:23.110 then and now is just that Freitas and Eric knew 00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:30.250 that they knew that it was coming for them. Right? 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:36.380 We don't really know until until something happens 00:38:36.380 --> 00:38:44.579 that causes us to look elsewhere. So, yeah, and 00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:47.159 then the more I wrote or the more I read about 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.139 Freitas and Eric the Red, the more fascinating 00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:55.219 it was to me. And I mean, she is not a good person, 00:38:55.260 --> 00:39:02.940 right? Like, Loki? Like, she's not great. She's 00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:08.880 a murderess, right? Like, she's not portrayed 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.719 as a good person. In fact, she's the foil to 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.380 Gudrid, who goes on to be the mother of three 00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:21.300 bishops or something. And is the paragon perfect 00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:27.849 Christian woman in these sagas. And she, Gudrid 00:39:27.849 --> 00:39:30.650 is a really interesting character too, but she 00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:36.289 is, those sagas were written, like actually one 00:39:36.289 --> 00:39:39.170 of them, one of the sagas of the Greenlanders 00:39:39.170 --> 00:39:43.269 is traced to have been written by someone, like 00:39:43.269 --> 00:39:48.670 I think it was like a nun or a monk, and it was 00:39:48.670 --> 00:39:52.150 preserved because Gudrid was the mother of three 00:39:52.150 --> 00:39:56.099 bishops, right? So it's, It's very much about 00:39:56.099 --> 00:40:02.079 her and her story and how she is this perfect 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:06.019 being, right? As much as anyone can be. And she's 00:40:06.019 --> 00:40:10.300 able to even cross the line to pagan, to the 00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:13.400 pagan side without losing any of that Christian 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:19.079 purity, right? Whereas Freitas is just, she's 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.659 just trying to live. It's a force of nature. 00:40:22.230 --> 00:40:25.130 That's how I describe her. She's just trying 00:40:25.130 --> 00:40:27.130 to live her life. And she doesn't want anybody 00:40:27.130 --> 00:40:30.030 to tell her how to do it. She wants to be able 00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:32.429 to do what she wants to do. She doesn't want 00:40:32.429 --> 00:40:37.030 to be tied to anyone. And we know now, of course, 00:40:37.030 --> 00:40:40.929 that there were plenty of opportunities for women 00:40:40.929 --> 00:40:44.070 in the Viking Age. Like, they weren't tied necessarily 00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:48.469 to what we see now as traditional gender roles. 00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:51.829 Or what we've imposed backwards as traditional 00:40:51.829 --> 00:40:54.889 gender roles. Like, they could do other things. 00:40:54.989 --> 00:40:57.070 They could explore. Like, we don't have to look 00:40:57.070 --> 00:41:00.269 any further than Gudrid in the same saga to see. 00:41:00.650 --> 00:41:05.369 Like, she was part, like, she partially led the 00:41:05.369 --> 00:41:13.210 expedition to Newfoundland. And so why couldn't 00:41:13.210 --> 00:41:17.519 Freydis? Right? Why couldn't she? also be doing 00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:20.900 it and like she goes more than once to to America 00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:24.619 she travels more than once there and I just thought 00:41:24.619 --> 00:41:30.440 for me this book was it was one of the most intensely 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:34.159 personal books I have ever known I was writing 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.199 right like sometimes we write a personal book 00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:38.900 and we don't realize how personal it is until 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:43.869 later that that was forged by fate but But Daughter 00:41:43.869 --> 00:41:46.010 of a Thousand Years, I knew. I knew that this 00:41:46.010 --> 00:41:50.489 was a really personal book. I hadn't told my 00:41:50.489 --> 00:41:55.409 family I was pagan yet. So in writing the book 00:41:55.409 --> 00:41:58.429 and preparing for publication, I also had to 00:41:58.429 --> 00:42:02.010 prepare for that, telling my family that, hey, 00:42:02.050 --> 00:42:06.889 I'm actually not Catholic or Christian. I'm pagan. 00:42:09.510 --> 00:42:15.889 Not unlike Emma. who who has to have that um 00:42:15.889 --> 00:42:19.630 experience in her contemporary timeline where 00:42:19.630 --> 00:42:22.650 everyone just wants her to just can't you just 00:42:22.650 --> 00:42:26.469 go to church for your father can't you just do 00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:28.889 these things for your family like why are you 00:42:28.889 --> 00:42:34.429 why are you being a problem like why can't you 00:42:34.429 --> 00:42:38.969 just be like the rest of us you know um and i 00:42:38.969 --> 00:42:41.730 think emma and freitas both have two totally 00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:45.909 different responses to that pressure that external 00:42:45.909 --> 00:42:48.650 pressure to be something that that isn't true 00:42:48.650 --> 00:42:55.050 to themselves uh and i tried really really hard 00:42:55.050 --> 00:43:01.289 to present a full full array like the full spectrum 00:43:01.289 --> 00:43:05.929 of faith right on both sides pagan and christian 00:43:05.929 --> 00:43:11.579 because i don't think any of this needs to be 00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:15.380 about demonizing anyone right it's just about 00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:22.380 letting people live their true life the life 00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:28.820 that's true to themselves so absolutely i don't 00:43:28.820 --> 00:43:32.260 know if that answers the question no this is 00:43:32.260 --> 00:43:35.250 the wonderful thing about my freestyle interview 00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:37.170 skills unless I'm rubbish at keeping track of 00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:39.050 what was asked and we just let conversation develop 00:43:39.050 --> 00:43:41.389 and naturally flow it's all good it's because 00:43:41.389 --> 00:43:44.349 it is interesting and and that's why I'm kind 00:43:44.349 --> 00:43:46.429 of like so pleased to have you both involved 00:43:46.429 --> 00:43:49.630 in this because you both picked some female characters 00:43:49.630 --> 00:43:52.989 that are up against so much and that needed a 00:43:52.989 --> 00:43:56.650 voice needed their their story to be heard for 00:43:56.650 --> 00:43:58.690 us to realize this and I know it's something 00:43:58.690 --> 00:44:02.039 that I discussed with Joanne harris myself personally 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:04.019 and heard her discuss in other events that i've 00:44:04.019 --> 00:44:06.519 been to in of course a lot of these mythology 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.880 come from the prozed and the poetic header compiled 00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:14.639 by snowy stillston an icelandic man who was a 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.039 christian so a lot of it has been tated by christianity 00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:21.099 already and then she herself got asked where 00:44:21.099 --> 00:44:23.360 are all the legends about the goddesses adventures 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:25.679 why are they always about the male counterparts 00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:32.289 um because we know about um No, I was going to 00:44:32.289 --> 00:44:34.030 say Freya, but no, she's not really in it that 00:44:34.030 --> 00:44:36.590 much. She's in a few myths, but not often. She 00:44:36.590 --> 00:44:38.670 doesn't really go off and be the protagonist, 00:44:38.789 --> 00:44:41.030 so to speak, because my favourite myth, of course, 00:44:41.090 --> 00:44:44.050 is Slave Thrym, when Thor gets dressed up as 00:44:44.050 --> 00:44:46.369 a bride, because Freya won't go and get married 00:44:46.369 --> 00:44:51.690 to a giant, which makes sense. But yeah, but 00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:53.710 she herself believed that there were these stories. 00:44:53.789 --> 00:44:57.070 They probably did exist, but for the society 00:44:57.070 --> 00:45:00.969 at the time, those stories... were not wanted 00:45:00.969 --> 00:45:03.429 to be shared or not relevant or they didn't want 00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:06.150 to encourage female independence and power. It 00:45:06.150 --> 00:45:08.610 was such a male -dominated world at the time 00:45:08.610 --> 00:45:11.170 and you're quite right that we are learning as 00:45:11.170 --> 00:45:14.309 time goes on through archaeology and more research 00:45:14.309 --> 00:45:18.210 and there are so many brilliant PhD students 00:45:18.210 --> 00:45:21.409 and doctors studying Norse myths and Norse sagas 00:45:21.409 --> 00:45:24.170 in a completely new way. including and really 00:45:24.170 --> 00:45:26.769 embracing kind of like the LGBTQ community and 00:45:26.769 --> 00:45:28.550 that kind of perspective on history as well which 00:45:28.550 --> 00:45:32.070 I think is wonderful and that females did have 00:45:32.070 --> 00:45:35.010 a lot more significance in society they really 00:45:35.010 --> 00:45:36.909 did I mean I know you mentioned Aphrodis of course 00:45:36.909 --> 00:45:39.429 went to America twice I instantly thought of 00:45:39.429 --> 00:45:41.530 Ord the Deep -Minded who kind of like led her 00:45:41.530 --> 00:45:43.710 whole family on a boat and led them to freedom 00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:46.110 I can't quite remember where from or from who 00:45:46.110 --> 00:45:48.070 but I know she led them to freedom and that's 00:45:48.070 --> 00:45:52.539 the key thing possibly possibly or she sailed 00:45:52.539 --> 00:45:54.920 to Ireland or something something having to do 00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:57.480 with Ireland there's so many sagas especially 00:45:57.480 --> 00:45:59.699 when you mention Iceland Iceland just has a whole 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:03.460 book of sagas yeah and it categories like one 00:46:03.460 --> 00:46:05.980 family ancestry to the next and the next it's 00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:09.099 massive it's like a medieval face book it's just 00:46:09.099 --> 00:46:14.099 huge It really is. There's so many stories in 00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:16.920 Iceland. I mean, I think it's called the Landmabok 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:19.239 or something. I'm rubbish at speaking Old Norse. 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:22.679 Never get me to quote Old Norse anywhere. But 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.539 I really do kind of like really enjoyed reading 00:46:25.539 --> 00:46:31.659 these books. And of course, Amalia, your Forged 00:46:31.659 --> 00:46:36.260 by Fate series with Eve of the Christian Pantheon, 00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.340 as well as Adam. And then you have Thor. Would 00:46:39.340 --> 00:46:42.579 you like to introduce us and the viewers to how 00:46:42.579 --> 00:46:44.719 you came up with that really interesting love 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:48.400 pantheon triangle of pain and anguish, but equally 00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:54.280 love? Yeah. So I think the most important thing 00:46:54.280 --> 00:47:01.599 for me to preface all of this with is that I 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.619 wasn't even 20 when I started writing Faith of 00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:09.769 the Gods. Right. It was my very first, very, 00:47:09.909 --> 00:47:15.550 very, very first story that I was going to be 00:47:15.550 --> 00:47:20.210 like a book, like a real book. And so on the 00:47:20.210 --> 00:47:23.590 one hand, I think I'm all about romance as the 00:47:23.590 --> 00:47:26.070 bridge. Right. Like, so we have the love triangle 00:47:26.070 --> 00:47:29.449 between Thor, Eve and Adam. And, and like, why 00:47:29.449 --> 00:47:31.210 would I do that? Well, like, because, because 00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:35.809 love, love is a bridge, right? Like love. is 00:47:35.809 --> 00:47:39.309 the bridge for everything between all worlds 00:47:39.309 --> 00:47:44.690 all people so i think that that that's the easy 00:47:44.690 --> 00:47:51.610 answer right um but the messy answer is that 00:47:51.610 --> 00:47:56.010 like i was going through a quarter life crisis 00:47:56.010 --> 00:48:01.530 i had no idea what was happening like i didn't 00:48:01.530 --> 00:48:04.050 know anything about anything but what i did know 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:07.340 was that I was struggling immensely with my faith, 00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:10.659 right? That was the one thing I knew was true. 00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.760 And when I was drafting what became Forged by 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:17.000 Fate in its more final form in 2008, 2009, because 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:22.559 I started writing it in 2002, 2003, I knew with 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.639 certainty that I was having these spiritual experiences 00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:28.780 of Thor. But I had been raised Catholic, and 00:48:28.780 --> 00:48:31.239 I didn't know how to reconcile these incredibly 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.480 intense, real experiences I was having with the 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:40.059 paradigm of my Catholic upbringing. But through 00:48:40.059 --> 00:48:43.000 these books, through Adam and Eve and Thor, I 00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.610 was able to shape. a mythology that made space 00:48:45.610 --> 00:48:49.889 for what i was experiencing for the rest of for 00:48:49.889 --> 00:48:52.929 the rest of all of the pantheons alongside of 00:48:52.929 --> 00:48:56.050 catholicism and this idea this concept of the 00:48:56.050 --> 00:49:00.929 one god and i didn't really realize it at the 00:49:00.929 --> 00:49:02.449 time right like daughter of a thousand years 00:49:02.449 --> 00:49:07.550 i knew i knew that that was me like working through 00:49:07.550 --> 00:49:10.889 some stuff but i never i didn't realize at all 00:49:10.889 --> 00:49:15.380 um what I was really doing in Forged by Fate, 00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:20.500 what that book was really about, until, I don't 00:49:20.500 --> 00:49:23.500 know, 10 or 15 years ago, or 10 or 15 years later, 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:26.380 I was reading it, and there's a moment in Forged 00:49:26.380 --> 00:49:31.139 by Fate where Eve is with Thor, and Thor is pretending 00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:36.260 to be mortal as her husband, and she's confessing 00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:39.010 herself. that she's Eve, that she was created 00:49:39.010 --> 00:49:42.010 by and given the breath of life by God, Elohim 00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:46.449 or Yahweh. And the making of her, the making 00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:49.050 of Eve in the mythology of the book, drained 00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:53.090 God of life. And she saw his Haskababadi with 00:49:53.090 --> 00:49:57.170 her own eyes. And Adam proclaimed God dead. So 00:49:57.170 --> 00:50:01.210 that's her story. She knows, or she thinks that 00:50:01.210 --> 00:50:05.250 she knows that God is dead. And she says to Thor, 00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:08.659 That she envies the people who can have faith. 00:50:09.739 --> 00:50:13.119 The people who can believe in God or God because 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:19.579 that was taken from her by her knowledge of the 00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:22.619 truth. She thinks she knows the truth and that 00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:25.739 truth means that God is not there. So what can 00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:29.940 she have faith in? And Thor resolves in that 00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:34.349 moment to become her God. He knows he can be 00:50:34.349 --> 00:50:36.349 the higher power she longs for, the protector, 00:50:36.469 --> 00:50:38.429 the lover, the grace, the reassurance that people 00:50:38.429 --> 00:50:41.570 with faith can reach for, but she was never really 00:50:41.570 --> 00:50:45.429 able to access. And he can give her all of that. 00:50:45.510 --> 00:50:48.230 And in that moment, he dedicates himself to it. 00:50:48.349 --> 00:50:52.670 And that moment in Friday Faith, I did not realize 00:50:52.670 --> 00:50:57.650 until much later, was extremely reflective of 00:50:57.650 --> 00:51:01.570 what my own experiences had been. i i didn't 00:51:01.570 --> 00:51:04.630 know god or jesus they didn't speak to me i didn't 00:51:04.630 --> 00:51:08.329 feel their love it was absent from me but i could 00:51:08.329 --> 00:51:12.170 see it and envied its reflection and its power 00:51:12.170 --> 00:51:15.309 and its glow in other people right like i i saw 00:51:15.309 --> 00:51:20.889 that they had something and and i longed for 00:51:20.889 --> 00:51:26.170 it and ultimately where i found it was thor right 00:51:26.170 --> 00:51:31.219 i i felt thor's love i knew thor And I think, 00:51:31.219 --> 00:51:34.519 so it was really natural then that there would 00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:37.099 be this tug of war in Eve in this book between 00:51:37.099 --> 00:51:41.980 Adam, who's of God, who's made for her, and Thor, 00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:44.699 who is a power existing outside of God's creation, 00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:50.199 because that was what I was struggling with. 00:51:51.050 --> 00:51:53.989 And sometimes we have to look outside of what 00:51:53.989 --> 00:51:56.570 has been deliberately made or created for us 00:51:56.570 --> 00:51:59.289 to find our purpose in our life, to find happiness, 00:51:59.329 --> 00:52:04.210 faith, joy. And it doesn't mean that we're rejecting 00:52:04.210 --> 00:52:08.889 the gift that we were given by the people who 00:52:08.889 --> 00:52:11.070 love us, right? And I think that that's where 00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:16.190 the love trial comes into play. You can still 00:52:16.190 --> 00:52:20.070 love. what was made for you and what was given 00:52:20.070 --> 00:52:23.829 for you or given to you but it doesn't that's 00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:26.849 not all there is and sometimes you have to have 00:52:26.849 --> 00:52:29.090 to step outside that and it creates a tension 00:52:29.090 --> 00:52:32.289 between the two different forces that influence 00:52:32.289 --> 00:52:34.849 and even govern our lives and I think that that's 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.239 So really, I guess it's just all a big metaphor 00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:44.360 and I didn't know. What do I know? I was young. 00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:46.539 It was my first book. I didn't know anything. 00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:51.539 I found it really, really good. I mean, it's 00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:53.739 obviously been a number of years since I read 00:52:53.739 --> 00:52:56.780 the trilogy, but I know I was just. hyped every 00:52:56.780 --> 00:52:58.820 time the next one came out and i devoured it 00:52:58.820 --> 00:53:02.119 within days if not a week maximum and then i'll 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:04.480 put one big long worded review of how good it 00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:08.980 was i'm gonna read somewhere um but i did i love 00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:14.059 the mechanic of how i mean i'm still this is 00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:15.440 going to come from me personally as a reader 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:20.679 of said series i can't quite remember why thor 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.559 was around but none of the others in his pantheon 00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:25.880 were or was it because you just wanted to focus 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.800 on thor because i kept thinking surely odin's 00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:30.380 gonna come charging over the hilltops and say 00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:32.539 i knew that daughter alone she's not good for 00:53:32.539 --> 00:53:34.239 you she's from that so -and -so god over there 00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:36.699 um they were all there it's just that we only 00:53:36.699 --> 00:53:40.119 saw thor's point of view right so he he he was 00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:44.639 in and out of asgard and and we see um that odin 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:49.800 basically was an architect of of some things 00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:54.000 in his life that that then like fell apart and 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:58.500 and Thor is grieving the loss um and he's and 00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.940 Thor is at odds with Odin for for the majority 00:54:00.940 --> 00:54:06.980 of the trilogy uh so and like also I I really 00:54:06.980 --> 00:54:10.860 really wanted to to matchmake Baldur and Athena 00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:14.280 together like I really wanted to do it and it 00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:17.340 just They just didn't fit. They just did not 00:54:17.340 --> 00:54:21.780 belong. They did not belong together. No matter 00:54:21.780 --> 00:54:26.280 what I did. They were like no. Nope not us. Nope. 00:54:28.460 --> 00:54:33.099 So. Yeah so. The other gods are there. And of 00:54:33.099 --> 00:54:36.739 course Loki is there. Loki is a thorn in Thor 00:54:36.739 --> 00:54:43.980 and Eve's side. For much of the series too. But 00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:49.309 yeah. i i focused on thor because thor was who 00:54:49.309 --> 00:54:55.170 spoke to me well that's as good a story as any 00:54:55.170 --> 00:54:58.190 as i find to write a story following that story 00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:00.630 really i mean and this is where stories they 00:55:00.630 --> 00:55:03.650 all reflect us and our society and our lives 00:55:03.650 --> 00:55:07.750 kind of thing um I think all authors put a bit 00:55:07.750 --> 00:55:09.989 of themselves, no matter how deeply they think 00:55:09.989 --> 00:55:12.150 they don't, a little bit of themselves, or if 00:55:12.150 --> 00:55:14.369 not people they know in their lives and social 00:55:14.369 --> 00:55:18.210 circles will come through in characters. I mean, 00:55:18.250 --> 00:55:20.449 when I was reading Goddess Nothing at All, I 00:55:20.449 --> 00:55:22.230 fell in love with the fact that Hodo was effectively 00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:25.150 a big librarian. Even if he was blind, he still 00:55:25.150 --> 00:55:26.889 loved books and had all the books and lived in 00:55:26.889 --> 00:55:28.780 the big library. And I thought, yep. i want to 00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:30.780 be him i just want to live in a library that's 00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:32.659 just totally me i mean i'm stuck with these six 00:55:32.659 --> 00:55:35.500 humble shelves three of them you can't see one 00:55:35.500 --> 00:55:38.019 of them you can't um but my husband won't move 00:55:38.019 --> 00:55:40.320 to a bigger house so i can't have a big library 00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.360 i need to win the lottery but never mind that 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:45.699 and my daughter will ever growingly fill up the 00:55:45.699 --> 00:55:51.760 house with all her toys um so let me think of 00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:53.820 what my next question was because we've talked 00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:58.800 about so much already as i put my one there So 00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:00.239 I've done that one, I've done that one, I've 00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:07.099 done that one. Let's turn to Marvel, seeming 00:56:07.099 --> 00:56:09.480 we've all mentioned it, and I myself have got 00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:13.000 into Marvel, I have the hammer, I have Lady Thor, 00:56:13.179 --> 00:56:15.579 as I call her, because that is what first got 00:56:15.579 --> 00:56:18.699 me into Thor comics, when they made Thor a woman, 00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:21.079 I was like, yeah, I'm in for that, let me have 00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:22.920 a read, and I've been following it ever since. 00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:25.260 Jane Foster, if you haven't known, because the 00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:27.159 film is out now, they've finally made a film, 00:56:27.219 --> 00:56:33.070 sadly, it left much to be expected it has a lot 00:56:33.070 --> 00:56:34.809 of plot holes I think need to be explored more 00:56:34.809 --> 00:56:37.309 because the comic book arc of Jane Foster wielding 00:56:37.309 --> 00:56:40.309 the hammer is so much longer so much more fun 00:56:40.309 --> 00:56:43.289 and then they gave her the role of being a Valkyrie 00:56:43.289 --> 00:56:45.550 which really got me excited because I'm like 00:56:45.550 --> 00:56:48.130 wow it actually was a Valkyrie superhero besides 00:56:48.130 --> 00:56:50.409 the Valkyrie from Ragnarok which I was a bit 00:56:50.409 --> 00:56:53.949 meh because her story just didn't have a lot 00:56:53.949 --> 00:56:55.909 of depth to it. I'm like, everyone's lost someone 00:56:55.909 --> 00:57:02.090 in a war. That's not an original backstory. But 00:57:02.090 --> 00:57:04.269 that's just my personal opinion, no offence to 00:57:04.269 --> 00:57:07.150 the writers. But yeah, I've been following her 00:57:07.150 --> 00:57:09.469 since and of course in the current story arc 00:57:09.469 --> 00:57:10.789 that I've got going on in the comic storyline, 00:57:11.050 --> 00:57:13.050 she's got the hammer again because Thor's gone 00:57:13.050 --> 00:57:15.050 missing and yet again she has to go in and save 00:57:15.050 --> 00:57:17.210 the day, that kind of thing. And they've finally 00:57:17.210 --> 00:57:19.590 killed off Odin. Spoilers, he's still around, 00:57:19.750 --> 00:57:22.809 he's just not himself anymore. He's in the hammer. 00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.820 He's the voice of the Hammer people. That's just 00:57:25.820 --> 00:57:30.500 crazy. But yes, so besides Marvel really getting 00:57:30.500 --> 00:57:33.039 into, of course, Norse mythology, and they've 00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:35.179 kind of like introduced a few of the characters. 00:57:35.260 --> 00:57:37.460 So they've got Sif, but she's not Sif with a 00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:40.059 long, long blonde hair that gets cut off by Loki. 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.880 She's a brunette and she takes over him down 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:46.679 on the bridge at some point. I don't think they've 00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:50.400 actually introduced many other. Norse pantheon 00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:52.980 characters from the original myths. I know they've 00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:59.059 got... They've got one of Odin's brothers. I'm 00:57:59.059 --> 00:58:00.780 pretty sure I've encountered him in the comics, 00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:02.920 but not many more. Of course, they've got Frigg. 00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:05.920 Frigg's still around. And they've got Freyja. 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:12.159 And of course, then they've got... Baldr. Yeah, 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:16.079 they've got Baldr. But I don't think they've 00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:19.000 got much more. Personally, I know they're sometimes 00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:20.900 touching it. I know they reflect a lot on giants. 00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:24.440 They have giants pop up all the time. But in 00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:26.400 terms of Marvel comics, I think they've got so 00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:29.500 much more they can dive into and really, really 00:58:29.500 --> 00:58:33.920 explore with the whole pantheon. I know I've 00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:36.059 come across North Miss in a number of games. 00:58:36.199 --> 00:58:40.559 There was one game that I enjoyed to a justifiable 00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:44.369 level called Two Human. It was a weird kind of 00:58:44.369 --> 00:58:46.909 sci -fi game where you play as Iron Queen of 00:58:46.909 --> 00:58:50.050 the God Balder and you have to follow either 00:58:50.050 --> 00:58:55.289 a human route or a biotechnology route and you 00:58:55.289 --> 00:58:58.449 basically go off with an endless army of recruits 00:58:58.449 --> 00:59:01.150 and kill loads of things with guns and somehow 00:59:01.150 --> 00:59:03.670 face the day. And you fight Fenris the wolf as 00:59:03.670 --> 00:59:05.409 well, which makes no sense as well because he's 00:59:05.409 --> 00:59:07.650 got to be around to kill Odin. So that's the 00:59:07.650 --> 00:59:11.010 other thing. But I'm wondering if Marvel doesn't 00:59:11.010 --> 00:59:13.110 touch too much in the depth of all this, because 00:59:13.110 --> 00:59:17.150 so much of it is quite wacky, to be fair. And 00:59:17.150 --> 00:59:19.110 this is where I'm going to reel back to the point 00:59:19.110 --> 00:59:22.869 I said way back however long ago of Loki and 00:59:22.869 --> 00:59:28.250 a particular story involving a horse. Yes, so 00:59:28.250 --> 00:59:30.690 many people don't know this, but they really 00:59:30.690 --> 00:59:33.210 should, because it's it's another favourite story 00:59:33.210 --> 00:59:36.610 of mine of how Loki. became a horse and then 00:59:36.610 --> 00:59:40.190 gave birth to a horse and I think Kat you dealt 00:59:40.190 --> 00:59:42.809 with it brilliantly in your book because I've 00:59:42.809 --> 00:59:45.610 read it in loads of other Loki books and it is 00:59:45.610 --> 00:59:47.789 all kind of like done deliberately he deliberately 00:59:47.789 --> 00:59:50.769 became well he did become horse to then lure 00:59:50.769 --> 00:59:53.130 okay for the people watching we'll just summarize 00:59:53.130 --> 00:59:55.030 it in 101 basically there's a giant he's building 00:59:55.030 --> 00:59:57.130 a wall for the gods he wants to marry Freya in 00:59:57.130 --> 00:59:59.190 order to build the wall he says he can do it 00:59:59.190 --> 01:00:01.489 in record time Loki says Tell him to do it in 01:00:01.489 --> 01:00:03.909 half, he'll surely fail. But he doesn't because 01:00:03.909 --> 01:00:05.849 he's got a magic horse that's helping me build 01:00:05.849 --> 01:00:08.530 the wall. Cat, I salute you for having him actually 01:00:08.530 --> 01:00:11.269 have the horse put a brick on the wall. I was 01:00:11.269 --> 01:00:13.949 like, this horse is actually picking up a brick. 01:00:14.070 --> 01:00:16.340 He's not just calling, he's picking... brick 01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:18.199 up and putting it on the wall that is definitely 01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:21.119 a magic horse totally absolutely undeniably a 01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.760 magic horse that of course then leaves the gods 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:25.739 with a problem and they all look to loki because 01:00:25.739 --> 01:00:28.539 they got him in the mess so loki decides of course 01:00:28.539 --> 01:00:32.460 to be loki uses magical transforming shape abilities 01:00:32.460 --> 01:00:35.800 to become a female horse lure the stallion the 01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:39.820 magic horse away and nature has its way in so 01:00:39.820 --> 01:00:41.460 many of the loki books that's done deliberately 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.280 whether loki intended to then get pregnant after 01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:47.500 that escapade is another entirely topic but in 01:00:47.500 --> 01:00:51.239 the myth he does fall pregnant as the horse um 01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:53.880 and stays away for a long time because horses 01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:57.840 have a long long gestation period in the womb 01:00:57.840 --> 01:00:59.639 and then give birth then he comes back leading 01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:01.760 slate near the six -legged horse that ultimately 01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:05.380 becomes odin's favorite steed number one cat 01:01:05.739 --> 01:01:08.440 you did it so wonderfully in a brilliantly fresh 01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:11.440 and almost brutally honest take on it in that 01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:14.119 that loki didn't intend to get pregnant as a 01:01:14.119 --> 01:01:17.019 horse loki did not like giving birth to a horse 01:01:17.019 --> 01:01:19.980 all by himself in the wilderness who would totally 01:01:19.980 --> 01:01:23.199 who would i it's not often i feel great sympathy 01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:25.599 for loki but when i read that bit i'm like yeah 01:01:26.250 --> 01:01:29.010 That guy had it rough. Sigyn, yes, Sigyn gave 01:01:29.010 --> 01:01:30.570 birth with all her family and friends around 01:01:30.570 --> 01:01:33.469 her. Loki, he was in the woods as a horse, giving 01:01:33.469 --> 01:01:35.989 birth to a six -legged horse. That is pretty 01:01:35.989 --> 01:01:39.389 darn tough. No one can beat that for sympathy 01:01:39.389 --> 01:01:43.710 points, really. But sadly, people often fail 01:01:43.710 --> 01:01:45.809 to see that. They fail to sympathise with that 01:01:45.809 --> 01:01:47.769 particular aspect because it's almost like, oh, 01:01:47.789 --> 01:01:49.889 it's a Loki joke, it's a Loki trick. He's fine, 01:01:50.030 --> 01:01:52.349 therefore he's dealt with it. he doesn't share 01:01:52.349 --> 01:01:54.269 those emotional scars he'll have had from that 01:01:54.269 --> 01:01:56.369 incident with anyone else but signet and we would 01:01:56.369 --> 01:01:58.349 all have emotional scars i think if we had to 01:01:58.349 --> 01:02:01.329 go through i mean whenever i watch wildlife episodes 01:02:01.329 --> 01:02:04.130 animals seem to be so pain -free and stress -free 01:02:04.130 --> 01:02:05.969 when they give birth it just pushed and it pops 01:02:05.969 --> 01:02:11.389 out done us humans we're so it it it's a severe 01:02:11.389 --> 01:02:13.309 trauma for us homo sapiens don't know why it 01:02:13.309 --> 01:02:17.579 is oh But that, I think, is wonderful. And I 01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:19.639 do wonder, it's because that's such a wacky thing. 01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:21.400 I mean, it's not just the wacky nature of Loki 01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:24.039 giving birth to Sleipnir, but even the entire 01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.920 way the world was created. I mean, there's Gnungagap, 01:02:27.980 --> 01:02:31.260 the great big black void, and there's Niflheim, 01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.119 the land of ice, and Muspelheim, the land of 01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:35.099 fire. And then all of a sudden, there's a cow. 01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:38.679 And the cow licks the ice and then finds a giant. 01:02:38.900 --> 01:02:42.059 And then from his armpits and toes come other 01:02:42.059 --> 01:02:45.960 giants. It's all so crazy. it is so refreshingly 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:47.760 crazy and i think that's why i love it so much 01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:50.960 because i'm equally crazy i think that no one 01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:52.860 could capture that and still have an audience 01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:54.940 that would watch it or play it if it was that 01:02:54.940 --> 01:02:58.280 kind of setting in that kind of place i mean 01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:00.059 it's almost quite grim if you had to explain 01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:02.159 to a six -year -old why is this guy oh this guy 01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:04.579 is actually someone's giant skull and those clouds 01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:08.199 their bits of brain floating around it's just 01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:13.170 nowhere else no other pantheon has it so So wacky. 01:03:13.190 --> 01:03:15.110 That's the only way I can describe it. Quite 01:03:15.110 --> 01:03:17.849 essentially Englishly wacky. That's it. What 01:03:17.849 --> 01:03:19.690 are your thoughts? Do you think there are elements 01:03:19.690 --> 01:03:23.190 of the pantheon that are so abstract, so wild 01:03:23.190 --> 01:03:26.329 and so out there, even to us 10 ,000 years after 01:03:26.329 --> 01:03:29.010 the Vikings were around telling stories? Or do 01:03:29.010 --> 01:03:31.269 you think there are elements that should be showcased 01:03:31.269 --> 01:03:33.449 more myths than characters that should appear 01:03:33.449 --> 01:03:42.010 in whatever medium you'd like them to be? Why 01:03:42.010 --> 01:03:48.010 don't you go ahead? So I have a very nerdy take 01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:54.070 on all of this. First of all, like with the origin 01:03:54.070 --> 01:03:58.670 myths and like, and these like, oh, the sky is 01:03:58.670 --> 01:04:00.469 a skull, this kind of thing. I think it really 01:04:00.469 --> 01:04:04.190 brilliantly showcases the kind of like dual nature 01:04:04.190 --> 01:04:08.530 of how hard life was and how they still found 01:04:08.530 --> 01:04:11.300 like. humor in things like there are a lot of 01:04:11.300 --> 01:04:12.820 different stories where you can kind of see some 01:04:12.820 --> 01:04:15.059 of that like dark humor coming through like if 01:04:15.059 --> 01:04:17.699 we don't laugh we might as well cry so let's 01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:21.300 have a joke and you know like it's cold some 01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:23.900 of the places where they said we're fairly barren 01:04:23.900 --> 01:04:28.199 like life sucks sometimes and you can like I 01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.739 find that more relatable as like a mythology 01:04:31.739 --> 01:04:35.070 rather than like a warm place where things are 01:04:35.070 --> 01:04:37.530 good and easy and there's plentiful fruit and 01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:41.170 like I just with my own personal experiences 01:04:41.170 --> 01:04:43.690 of the world where things were challenging I 01:04:43.690 --> 01:04:46.150 found that to be like a refreshing thing about 01:04:46.150 --> 01:04:49.309 them how there is like this duality of finding 01:04:49.309 --> 01:04:54.289 the best in your situation so having like having 01:04:54.289 --> 01:04:56.789 this very violent idea of like making the world 01:04:56.789 --> 01:04:59.809 from a giant or that we like eviscerated like 01:04:59.809 --> 01:05:05.639 it kind of And it's weird. And so in being weird, 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:07.679 it's kind of humorous, but as well, it kind of 01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:11.400 like jives with what I would expect from a society 01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:14.260 that kind of like had to do what it had to do, 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:18.920 including like raiding your neighbors or creating 01:05:18.920 --> 01:05:21.980 war to raid across the sea, like these kinds 01:05:21.980 --> 01:05:25.780 of things. So it doesn't like, in a way, it doesn't 01:05:25.780 --> 01:05:28.400 surprise me that, you know, these things are 01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:33.519 so out there and somewhat violent. um and like 01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:35.780 the lay of thrim is is the perfect example of 01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:38.380 like this violent thing of like having to go 01:05:38.380 --> 01:05:40.840 and like or i'm gonna bash this guy's face in 01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:43.519 with my hammer when i get it back but also doing 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:47.079 it in a way that was like um you know men don't 01:05:47.079 --> 01:05:49.559 typically wear dresses so we'll put thor in a 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.920 dress because he's probably stacked as like he's 01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:55.400 you know huge but he will put him in a dainty 01:05:55.400 --> 01:05:58.880 little gown like these these moments of levity 01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:02.630 that surely you had to have in the middle of 01:06:02.630 --> 01:06:05.929 winter when you can't leave your house and somebody 01:06:05.929 --> 01:06:09.449 has to keep everyone entertained um and then 01:06:09.449 --> 01:06:12.550 the flip side of that as well like specific to 01:06:12.550 --> 01:06:19.230 um loki and the horse like that that myth it 01:06:19.230 --> 01:06:22.610 is really weird right it's not something that 01:06:22.610 --> 01:06:26.130 i think most people want to look too hard at 01:06:26.130 --> 01:06:30.659 because if you look too hard it gets really weird 01:06:30.659 --> 01:06:33.760 and really gross and like against a lot of the 01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:36.119 things that we as humans we're like we don't 01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:39.980 fornicate with the animals like that's one of 01:06:39.980 --> 01:06:43.639 the rules right so nobody wants to like think 01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:45.840 too hard about that and that was kind of the 01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:49.820 challenge for me of like most um it's easy for 01:06:49.820 --> 01:06:51.980 it to be a joke because then you don't have to 01:06:51.980 --> 01:06:57.369 look hard at it right so um i because for me 01:06:57.369 --> 01:07:00.050 it didn't fit the narrative of like i have jokes 01:07:00.050 --> 01:07:03.510 and i have humor in my book but i am taking their 01:07:03.510 --> 01:07:06.090 life seriously so i was like okay i should look 01:07:06.090 --> 01:07:09.789 really hard at this spend time with it and i 01:07:09.789 --> 01:07:12.869 i will tell you my spouse wished that i did not 01:07:12.869 --> 01:07:15.789 spend time with it because he got to hear about 01:07:15.789 --> 01:07:20.010 me spending time with it there's a lot of research 01:07:20.010 --> 01:07:27.110 involved um but like in kind of taking it seriously 01:07:27.110 --> 01:07:31.469 and and like taking the joke out of it um it 01:07:31.469 --> 01:07:36.309 get it there is a fresh perspective that a lot 01:07:36.309 --> 01:07:40.010 of people i think didn't you know it's it's easier 01:07:40.010 --> 01:07:43.429 not to take it into into consideration and um 01:07:43.429 --> 01:07:48.150 so like i i think as well like with that particular 01:07:48.150 --> 01:07:53.650 myth it is a joke But in the same way that many 01:07:53.650 --> 01:07:56.389 of the things about our source material that 01:07:56.389 --> 01:08:01.610 we have is unreliable, is it a joke because of 01:08:01.610 --> 01:08:04.190 the unreliable material or was it always a joke? 01:08:04.449 --> 01:08:10.989 Is it a joke because Christian society would 01:08:10.989 --> 01:08:16.810 not much like that? There's so much on the table 01:08:16.810 --> 01:08:21.989 that we just don't know, right? was kind of trying 01:08:21.989 --> 01:08:23.909 to play from it from that perspective because 01:08:23.909 --> 01:08:30.170 having sex with an animal is like either a story 01:08:30.170 --> 01:08:31.949 you don't want to look too close at as like a 01:08:31.949 --> 01:08:36.489 christian person from that period or it's um 01:08:36.489 --> 01:08:41.189 a good opportunity to make a joke about a character 01:08:41.189 --> 01:08:43.449 who you want to be the devil who you want to 01:08:43.449 --> 01:08:47.270 like take his queerness and look at it from a 01:08:47.270 --> 01:08:51.189 less friendly perspective like there's so many 01:08:51.189 --> 01:08:55.250 possibilities so i don't know i've said a lot 01:08:55.250 --> 01:09:01.090 of things they do make sense i think i mean if 01:09:01.090 --> 01:09:08.770 you can i jump in i think that that point is 01:09:08.770 --> 01:09:12.890 really really important because we can see even 01:09:12.890 --> 01:09:18.850 in uh in story's ada right he He goes out of 01:09:18.850 --> 01:09:26.210 his way. To undermine the gods. And to. I can't 01:09:26.210 --> 01:09:28.510 even say that word. I've only read it. He makes 01:09:28.510 --> 01:09:33.369 them human. He takes their divinity away. Right. 01:09:33.470 --> 01:09:38.649 And I think that a lot of. These stories. Where. 01:09:40.770 --> 01:09:46.060 Like. Where the gods are humiliated. or embarrassed 01:09:46.060 --> 01:09:52.399 or or made to look bad right i think that that's 01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:57.159 there is a very real chance that the reason that 01:09:57.159 --> 01:10:01.239 those stories were preserved was for the purpose 01:10:01.239 --> 01:10:05.640 of making this religion this faith tradition 01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:11.220 ridiculous right absolutely so that so that people 01:10:11.220 --> 01:10:15.470 wouldn't feel pulled back to it right because 01:10:15.470 --> 01:10:21.149 the church has to had to firm up its hold on 01:10:21.149 --> 01:10:26.029 this area um and i think that that's i mean i 01:10:26.029 --> 01:10:28.890 honestly like obviously i i don't know i can't 01:10:28.890 --> 01:10:32.229 say for sure whether any of this is true there 01:10:32.229 --> 01:10:35.149 is the tradition of like the flighting poem where 01:10:35.149 --> 01:10:40.170 where you're just basically just like roasting 01:10:40.170 --> 01:10:45.829 people right like and we see that with um loki 01:10:45.829 --> 01:10:50.970 comes back uh before he's before he's finally 01:10:50.970 --> 01:10:55.430 chained um beneath the snake like he basically 01:10:55.430 --> 01:10:59.850 just like roasts everyone in the hall right and 01:10:59.850 --> 01:11:03.810 and that that feels natural right because he's 01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:07.850 he's in a he's like i might as well in for a 01:11:07.850 --> 01:11:11.750 penny and for a pound just like if i'm going 01:11:11.750 --> 01:11:13.970 down i'm going to take all of you with me right 01:11:13.970 --> 01:11:17.529 and and we also have um a tradition of the flighting 01:11:17.529 --> 01:11:21.270 the flighting poem the flighting scene in the 01:11:21.270 --> 01:11:23.329 saga of the ball songs too like this is a this 01:11:23.329 --> 01:11:29.510 is an old tradition but i think that there is 01:11:29.510 --> 01:11:36.100 like a focus on this as ridiculousness That is 01:11:36.100 --> 01:11:38.680 unfair. And especially like we're talking about 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:40.779 Thor. And being dressed up in the wedding gown. 01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:46.800 To go to. Pretend to be Freya. Which like the 01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:50.340 thing that's really. Really bizarre about that. 01:11:50.380 --> 01:11:52.359 Is that the giant believed. That he was Freya 01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:55.279 at all at any point. Not that he was wearing 01:11:55.279 --> 01:12:00.079 the dress. But that anybody bought it. But like 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:03.539 we also have. In Greek mythology. In that tradition. 01:12:04.780 --> 01:12:09.779 Hercules, Heracles, I suppose, he's in service 01:12:09.779 --> 01:12:14.819 to a queen as part of his labors. And they're 01:12:14.819 --> 01:12:18.340 out in like a meadow just like having fun doing 01:12:18.340 --> 01:12:20.760 stuff. I mean, if you were a queen and you had 01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:25.079 Heracles at your disposal. I mean, I don't know 01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:31.319 what I would do, but doing what they do. I mean. 01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:34.239 That would be a great father to your sons, right? 01:12:35.460 --> 01:12:39.159 The genetics. So they're out in the woods and 01:12:39.159 --> 01:12:41.819 they're having the time of their life. And Heracles 01:12:41.819 --> 01:12:46.319 just decides to dress up in her gown and be her 01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:49.159 and like puts on her clothes. And it's just like, 01:12:49.180 --> 01:12:52.939 la -di -da, like totally. We never hear about 01:12:52.939 --> 01:12:56.600 that. Right? Like when have you ever heard of 01:12:56.600 --> 01:12:59.859 that myth? No, I haven't. Nobody ever talks about 01:12:59.859 --> 01:13:03.630 it. Because Heracles isn't ridiculous, right? 01:13:03.729 --> 01:13:06.989 Like, because there's something more respectable 01:13:06.989 --> 01:13:11.390 about the Greco, like, the Greek tradition, the 01:13:11.390 --> 01:13:13.810 Roman tradition. It's more respectable because 01:13:13.810 --> 01:13:18.109 that's the roots of the church, right? It's the 01:13:18.109 --> 01:13:23.989 roots of Western civilization. So, and we see 01:13:23.989 --> 01:13:29.119 Snorri pulling into that. into that tradition 01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:32.600 by trying to make the gods Trojans who escaped 01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:35.520 from Troy during the war like none of it makes 01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:40.659 sense but it's about about preservation and making 01:13:40.659 --> 01:13:45.779 it respectable enough to allow these traditions 01:13:45.779 --> 01:13:52.460 to be kept in at least enough uh enough of an 01:13:52.460 --> 01:13:56.489 index that that norse society scandinavians can 01:13:56.489 --> 01:13:59.649 still like icelanders can still understand their 01:13:59.649 --> 01:14:07.510 own poetry right and i think that every time 01:14:07.510 --> 01:14:13.270 we look at the norse mythology as a whole and 01:14:13.270 --> 01:14:19.329 laugh at it we're continuing the tradition right 01:14:19.329 --> 01:14:25.029 of of undermining an entire people's faith in 01:14:25.029 --> 01:14:28.329 service to the church and i'm not saying that 01:14:28.329 --> 01:14:31.050 there aren't funny things right like i'm not 01:14:31.050 --> 01:14:34.850 saying that some things aren't genuinely hilarious 01:14:34.850 --> 01:14:39.970 like loki tying his something to his testicles 01:14:39.970 --> 01:14:43.470 like like it's really there are moments of like 01:14:43.470 --> 01:14:49.859 high drama hilarity whatever but It's not any 01:14:49.859 --> 01:14:53.100 more or any less ridiculous, any more or any 01:14:53.100 --> 01:14:56.159 less unbelievable, any more or any less wacky 01:14:56.159 --> 01:15:04.460 than any other mythic tradition. Yeah. I think 01:15:04.460 --> 01:15:09.460 that when it comes down to it, like people who 01:15:09.460 --> 01:15:13.539 are like taking a read for the first time of 01:15:13.539 --> 01:15:16.479 the source material have to kind of understand 01:15:16.479 --> 01:15:20.420 that. as much as we are writing you know our 01:15:20.420 --> 01:15:24.340 own fan fiction about norse myth and norse figures 01:15:24.340 --> 01:15:27.720 that snorri was doing the same thing writing 01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:30.439 his context the way he wanted to write it with 01:15:30.439 --> 01:15:33.779 his agenda and the agenda of you know the people 01:15:33.779 --> 01:15:37.180 he supported and that you know there's absolutely 01:15:37.180 --> 01:15:39.000 going to be truth in there and there's absolutely 01:15:39.000 --> 01:15:46.300 going to be his agenda as well right okay i'm 01:15:46.300 --> 01:15:49.079 gonna bring us to another topic now and it's 01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:52.640 a topic that I've encountered before when I was 01:15:52.640 --> 01:15:55.479 trying to do something similar to this session 01:15:55.479 --> 01:15:59.039 um in last year the London MCM Comic Con when 01:15:59.039 --> 01:16:01.119 I managed to get a panel accepted to do a topic 01:16:01.119 --> 01:16:05.859 on Norse fantasy I was talking to um another 01:16:05.859 --> 01:16:11.560 favourite author of mine Tessa Gratton, who wrote 01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:14.579 the wonderful United States of Asgard book. It's 01:16:14.579 --> 01:16:17.319 a whole revelation alternative world where the 01:16:17.319 --> 01:16:20.439 US is basically all pagan. But the gods are real. 01:16:20.539 --> 01:16:23.300 They're all celebrities. Odin's effectively like 01:16:23.300 --> 01:16:26.180 one rank higher than the president. And there's 01:16:26.180 --> 01:16:28.859 a conclave of archiaries. And it's just all awesome. 01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:31.619 Very wonderful series. Definitely go look it 01:16:31.619 --> 01:16:36.239 up. And she has a very good, very good position 01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:38.869 that she will only. get involved in panels where 01:16:38.869 --> 01:16:41.949 there is some representation of diversity to 01:16:41.949 --> 01:16:43.649 better reflect the community that we're all from 01:16:43.649 --> 01:16:46.649 and it did actually make me look scientifically 01:16:46.649 --> 01:16:49.310 scientifically more critically is the word actually 01:16:49.310 --> 01:16:51.689 it's not scientifically critically at my books 01:16:51.689 --> 01:16:54.609 and see what type of authors are writing these 01:16:54.609 --> 01:16:57.170 things and i have to say is predominantly women 01:16:57.170 --> 01:16:59.289 like yourselves and it is predominantly white 01:16:59.289 --> 01:17:02.189 there's only one other author of colour who I 01:17:02.189 --> 01:17:04.710 know and that's TJ Ayer who wrote an interesting 01:17:04.710 --> 01:17:09.149 series about Valkyrie's um first one's called 01:17:09.149 --> 01:17:14.529 um oh my god where is it Dead Radiance there 01:17:14.529 --> 01:17:18.869 it is there it's got them on my shelf um but 01:17:18.869 --> 01:17:20.689 yes but I know she's from New Zealand and she 01:17:20.689 --> 01:17:27.109 is of I want to say indonesian possibly eastern 01:17:27.109 --> 01:17:29.970 middle eastern heritage kind of thing apologies 01:17:29.970 --> 01:17:32.949 tj if i get that wrong um but that's the only 01:17:32.949 --> 01:17:35.770 person of color and yet interesting marvel of 01:17:35.770 --> 01:17:37.770 course going back to marvel when they decided 01:17:37.770 --> 01:17:40.609 to make the thor franchise of films they have 01:17:40.609 --> 01:17:44.649 made him dal a person of color or a person of 01:17:44.649 --> 01:17:47.329 b -a -m -e background i never know which way 01:17:47.329 --> 01:17:49.510 the correct way of pronouncing it so i must apologize 01:17:49.510 --> 01:17:52.789 if i offended anyone from that marginalized community 01:17:53.640 --> 01:17:56.180 um which i think is slightly an interesting nod 01:17:56.180 --> 01:17:58.300 to the myth that he came from nine mothers so 01:17:58.300 --> 01:18:01.260 you could create anyone of any type shape or 01:18:01.260 --> 01:18:04.300 size or color of nine mothers um but then of 01:18:04.300 --> 01:18:06.500 course in the latest film thor love and thunder 01:18:06.500 --> 01:18:09.859 slight spoiler sif loses a hand i won't say how 01:18:09.859 --> 01:18:12.079 or why but she loses a hand and that's almost 01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:15.420 a slight nod i'd like to think or hope to the 01:18:15.420 --> 01:18:18.039 legend of how tia lost his hand to fenrir when 01:18:18.039 --> 01:18:20.229 they were binding fenrir the wolf because of 01:18:20.229 --> 01:18:22.170 course that's a whole other legend they've left 01:18:22.170 --> 01:18:24.289 out i think that'd be lovely to have odin face 01:18:24.289 --> 01:18:26.090 off against fenrir but he didn't he just went 01:18:26.090 --> 01:18:28.170 to a cliff and turned into dust and magically 01:18:28.170 --> 01:18:33.609 faded away um but i don't know what you to think 01:18:33.609 --> 01:18:36.949 in terms of diversity and inclusivity and equality 01:18:36.949 --> 01:18:39.329 in terms of not just the readership kind of like 01:18:39.329 --> 01:18:42.029 are you encountering many fans from marginalized 01:18:42.029 --> 01:18:44.029 communities reading your work so indeed have 01:18:44.029 --> 01:18:46.670 you known or met other authors from marginalized 01:18:46.670 --> 01:18:48.989 communities that have connected with this pantheon 01:18:48.989 --> 01:18:52.329 and are writing about it and that kind of thing 01:18:52.329 --> 01:19:01.310 uh this is a really important i'm gonna say important 01:19:01.310 --> 01:19:06.609 topic uh especially in heathen norse pagan circles 01:19:06.609 --> 01:19:11.590 um where there is a lot of white supremacy uh 01:19:13.930 --> 01:19:18.729 where white supremacists have co -opted the mythology 01:19:18.729 --> 01:19:26.510 and its symbols. And I think that the thing that 01:19:26.510 --> 01:19:34.069 I'm going to say is this. Number one, we know 01:19:34.069 --> 01:19:39.229 that the Vikings traveled everywhere. It is absolutely 01:19:39.229 --> 01:19:45.729 unreasonable to think That there were not people 01:19:45.729 --> 01:19:49.050 who resonated with their gods from everywhere. 01:19:49.470 --> 01:19:53.390 It's absolutely unreasonable, right? It's absolutely 01:19:53.390 --> 01:19:58.609 just beyond unreasonable. We know that Europe 01:19:58.609 --> 01:20:03.529 itself was never just white. Never, ever, ever, 01:20:03.550 --> 01:20:06.729 never, ever, ever, ever. It is absolutely unreasonable 01:20:06.729 --> 01:20:12.140 to think that only white people. were raised 01:20:12.140 --> 01:20:14.939 inside of these communities who worship these 01:20:14.939 --> 01:20:19.180 gods. Absolutely unbelievable. Like, it's just 01:20:19.180 --> 01:20:24.880 pure fantasy to think otherwise. But I think 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:30.380 the most important thing to remember is that 01:20:30.380 --> 01:20:34.579 gods are not limited by human understanding. 01:20:35.920 --> 01:20:41.489 They are not limited by human perception. Gods 01:20:41.489 --> 01:20:47.289 can be anything they want to be. They can look 01:20:47.289 --> 01:20:50.890 like anything they want to look like. Right? 01:20:50.970 --> 01:20:58.229 I mean, Loki is a shapeshifter. What? There's 01:20:58.229 --> 01:21:03.250 no reason at all to think that this belongs, 01:21:03.630 --> 01:21:07.489 that this mythology, these stories, that any 01:21:07.489 --> 01:21:11.890 of this belongs only to... white people or only 01:21:11.890 --> 01:21:16.210 to people of a particular ethnic cultural background 01:21:16.210 --> 01:21:21.930 like it doesn't make any sense historically and 01:21:21.930 --> 01:21:29.270 it doesn't make any sense theologically and I 01:21:29.270 --> 01:21:35.930 think if the gods speak to you they get to decide 01:21:35.930 --> 01:21:41.750 right like that's not We don't decide who the 01:21:41.750 --> 01:21:46.850 gods speak to. That's just, the gods are for 01:21:46.850 --> 01:21:51.189 everyone who is looking or who is reaching or 01:21:51.189 --> 01:21:54.329 who needs something. The gods are for everyone. 01:21:55.449 --> 01:21:59.750 And that goes for, I mean, aside from Hinduism, 01:21:59.770 --> 01:22:04.130 which has a theology that doesn't allow for conversion 01:22:04.130 --> 01:22:07.630 because of reincarnation, they believe that you're 01:22:07.630 --> 01:22:10.069 born. in a particular place for a particular 01:22:10.069 --> 01:22:12.630 reason in a particular tradition or for a particular 01:22:12.630 --> 01:22:16.050 reason and like that's totally i get it i get 01:22:16.050 --> 01:22:22.850 it right but like these old myths they don't 01:22:22.850 --> 01:22:29.029 belong to anyone specifically the world is wide 01:22:29.029 --> 01:22:32.869 the world is diverse even as far as the bronze 01:22:32.869 --> 01:22:35.090 age as far back as the bronze age we have records 01:22:35.090 --> 01:22:41.970 of incredible amounts of cultural exchange. We 01:22:41.970 --> 01:22:45.449 had Hittite kings sending to Egypt for physicians. 01:22:46.590 --> 01:22:56.670 This is not... It's infuriating to me to think 01:22:56.670 --> 01:23:00.510 that anyone is grasping onto this and saying 01:23:00.510 --> 01:23:07.420 no, gatekeeping for cultural supremacy. because 01:23:07.420 --> 01:23:10.819 it's just not it has no basis in reality their 01:23:10.819 --> 01:23:17.579 arguments have no basis in reality i totally 01:23:17.579 --> 01:23:20.060 agree and respect everything you've just said 01:23:20.060 --> 01:23:23.439 i've been to a number of norse conferences where 01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:25.420 there are a lot more intelligent people than 01:23:25.420 --> 01:23:27.680 i am people who are very lucky and blessed to 01:23:27.680 --> 01:23:29.840 study norse mythology in any or norse history 01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:31.720 in any context it's something i wish i could 01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:33.899 do if i had my time and money to go back and 01:23:33.899 --> 01:23:37.579 do again um and it And it is coming up a lot 01:23:37.579 --> 01:23:39.739 more of the issue of white supremacy, not just 01:23:39.739 --> 01:23:42.619 adapting and kind of like trying to own the mythology, 01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:46.840 but also in the history. I know from one conference 01:23:46.840 --> 01:23:50.159 we went to, it was discussed on how there's all 01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:56.020 these Viking type. They're almost like brands 01:23:56.020 --> 01:23:58.840 in a way that they've got sophisticated marketing 01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:01.340 on social media websites and stuff like Viking 01:24:01.340 --> 01:24:04.430 men or beards. you have to be a proper viking 01:24:04.430 --> 01:24:06.289 and have a proper beard and they did this and 01:24:06.289 --> 01:24:08.710 they did that and they didn't do this and they 01:24:08.710 --> 01:24:12.109 didn't do that and it's just yeah it's a whole 01:24:12.109 --> 01:24:14.550 issue i think that's one thing that another thing 01:24:14.550 --> 01:24:17.390 that appealed to me about the mythology and that 01:24:17.390 --> 01:24:19.789 it has got quite a diverse cast of characters 01:24:19.789 --> 01:24:22.770 of course we've got hoda who is a blind god they 01:24:22.770 --> 01:24:24.930 don't come across many blind gods you've got 01:24:24.930 --> 01:24:28.289 two losers in their arms who is an amputee sif 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.979 possibly could have suffered from alopecia if 01:24:30.979 --> 01:24:32.720 that's the way the Loki myth of stealing her 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:35.579 hair is interpreted because of course she needs 01:24:35.579 --> 01:24:37.560 then to wear a wig because she's lost her hair 01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:42.899 um you've got who else have we got we've got 01:24:42.899 --> 01:24:45.460 of course Hindal the nine mothers so we could 01:24:45.460 --> 01:24:48.220 have like an adoptee Loki himself is an adoptee 01:24:48.220 --> 01:24:54.960 of sorts um who else there was oh there's someone 01:24:54.960 --> 01:25:03.220 on the tip of my tongue There are others. There's 01:25:03.220 --> 01:25:05.699 loads of different aspects of the pantheon that 01:25:05.699 --> 01:25:08.800 reflect a more honest society. They're not all 01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:11.479 fit and healthy and all prime of their life. 01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:13.439 I often get the impression from the Greek and 01:25:13.439 --> 01:25:15.279 Roman gods that there's nothing possibly wrong 01:25:15.279 --> 01:25:18.319 with them, but these all have physical as well 01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:20.380 as the emotional flaws. I often like to think 01:25:20.380 --> 01:25:23.420 that Odin himself is incredibly, incredibly paranoid. 01:25:24.079 --> 01:25:26.359 He knows the end is coming and he will do anything 01:25:26.359 --> 01:25:29.500 at all to stop it. So he just... pulls and pulls 01:25:29.500 --> 01:25:31.279 the strings in every way which they perform and 01:25:31.279 --> 01:25:33.779 the fact that he kind of like has his uncle's 01:25:33.779 --> 01:25:36.899 head in a jar deliberately kept alive to keep 01:25:36.899 --> 01:25:38.680 talking to him and telling him what's going to 01:25:38.680 --> 01:25:41.739 come next is is quite dominating it's almost 01:25:41.739 --> 01:25:45.239 a bit like an abusive controlling personality 01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:48.600 it is very interesting how they have those elements 01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:50.760 that we now recognize but people at the time 01:25:50.760 --> 01:25:52.399 might not have done because they didn't have 01:25:53.229 --> 01:25:55.010 They didn't understand that relationships could 01:25:55.010 --> 01:25:57.050 be abusive. Well, they did, but they didn't have 01:25:57.050 --> 01:26:00.210 the means in society to deal with it, manage 01:26:00.210 --> 01:26:02.430 it, address it, change it, recommend it, that 01:26:02.430 --> 01:26:07.369 kind of thing. What's your thoughts on all this, 01:26:07.369 --> 01:26:12.750 Kat? I would have a hard time putting it any 01:26:12.750 --> 01:26:15.829 better than Amalia did. It's a really important 01:26:15.829 --> 01:26:20.409 conversation to me, even from outside of not 01:26:20.409 --> 01:26:24.619 being part of the spiritual communities. I just, 01:26:24.699 --> 01:26:29.199 it is infuriating to think of people trying to 01:26:29.199 --> 01:26:34.119 gatekeep spirituality. It just, it's mind boggling. 01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:40.119 In my own work in trying to imagine a more multicultural 01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:44.619 world, I have done things like in my stories, 01:26:44.659 --> 01:26:47.579 the entire community of the elves are Black and 01:26:47.579 --> 01:26:51.579 they, that's like they have a beautiful elven 01:26:51.579 --> 01:26:54.199 society and like in our lord of the rings type 01:26:54.199 --> 01:26:57.619 of thing but they just are black people or they 01:26:57.619 --> 01:27:02.020 um there are different cultures that i try to 01:27:02.020 --> 01:27:05.000 give a particular ethnicity just to keep the 01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:07.680 world not all white because i just don't think 01:27:07.680 --> 01:27:13.279 that that's realistic um and again we do know 01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:16.119 that people traveled and they picked up things 01:27:16.119 --> 01:27:19.560 from cultures we know that people of various 01:27:19.560 --> 01:27:23.420 worldwide pantheons would take on gods from other 01:27:23.420 --> 01:27:26.500 pantheons like they were like always like trading 01:27:26.500 --> 01:27:30.199 gods for lack of a better way to say it and sorry 01:27:30.199 --> 01:27:35.000 cultural exchange yeah exactly like that we we 01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:37.300 know this was happening and there's no way that 01:27:37.300 --> 01:27:41.220 this wasn't happening in like Scandinavian places 01:27:41.220 --> 01:27:46.420 like it it is really frustrating to to try to 01:27:46.420 --> 01:27:51.119 vocalize how horrible it is for someone to try 01:27:51.119 --> 01:27:53.840 to put their white supremacist agenda on top 01:27:53.840 --> 01:27:57.520 of something like this. For me personally, because 01:27:57.520 --> 01:28:03.159 it is a more personal subject, my own agenda 01:28:03.159 --> 01:28:05.960 of diversity tends to come from queer minority 01:28:05.960 --> 01:28:08.779 groups. So a lot of the people that I am having 01:28:08.779 --> 01:28:12.060 beta read my work or that are attracted to my 01:28:12.060 --> 01:28:17.640 work come from queer communities. There is such 01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:21.520 an opening for them specifically with Norse myth 01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:24.939 stories and the way they have interpreted things 01:28:24.939 --> 01:28:28.439 and the way that God speaks to them that allows 01:28:28.439 --> 01:28:34.479 for that. It is a beautiful thing to watch people 01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:38.159 feel accepted through their faith in places where 01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:41.699 they have previously not. I mean, we know... 01:28:42.140 --> 01:28:45.159 that culturally Christianity has not been kind 01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:47.060 to queer people in a lot of different communities 01:28:47.060 --> 01:28:50.380 and for them to like go from not being accepted 01:28:50.380 --> 01:28:52.779 in a Christian community to being fully accepted 01:28:52.779 --> 01:28:56.340 in a queer pagan community is it's beautiful 01:28:56.340 --> 01:28:58.899 to watch and watch somebody try to gatekeep that. 01:29:02.020 --> 01:29:06.380 Frustrating. So have either of you come across 01:29:06.380 --> 01:29:10.050 any of the authors writing in the genre of Norse 01:29:10.050 --> 01:29:13.729 fantasy that come from communities such as the 01:29:13.729 --> 01:29:17.069 ones both of you each represent and are proudly 01:29:17.069 --> 01:29:20.090 supporting today. Because I personally haven't 01:29:20.090 --> 01:29:23.550 come across many more that are at least either 01:29:23.550 --> 01:29:27.770 of an ethnic minority or from a different sexual 01:29:27.770 --> 01:29:35.369 marginalised group. I find, like, I think that... 01:29:35.770 --> 01:29:40.149 Right now, it's easier to find authors of color 01:29:40.149 --> 01:29:48.210 in writing historical fiction generally. I think 01:29:48.210 --> 01:29:51.710 that there's been a real push to include more 01:29:51.710 --> 01:29:54.970 perspectives, especially as we do World War II 01:29:54.970 --> 01:29:59.329 to death. There has been a lot more inclusivity 01:29:59.329 --> 01:30:04.460 because people of different backgrounds are bringing 01:30:04.460 --> 01:30:07.119 different perspectives on these stories that 01:30:07.119 --> 01:30:10.739 apparently there is an insatiable appetite for. 01:30:11.779 --> 01:30:14.460 And I think that it's also becoming easier to 01:30:14.460 --> 01:30:17.000 find authors of color in contemporary romance, 01:30:17.340 --> 01:30:26.119 in YA, contemporary YA, and I think YA fantasy. 01:30:29.069 --> 01:30:32.090 I don't know that I personally have come across 01:30:32.090 --> 01:30:36.729 any particular authors of color working specifically 01:30:36.729 --> 01:30:42.670 with Noor Smith, but I think that that's on me. 01:30:43.649 --> 01:30:48.850 I'm sure that they are out there in the self 01:30:48.850 --> 01:30:55.609 -pub indie book space already. And I wish I could 01:30:55.609 --> 01:31:01.800 point to some. But I think that, I mean, I don't, 01:31:01.800 --> 01:31:05.899 I haven't, like, they haven't come to the top, 01:31:05.939 --> 01:31:10.199 right? But I don't think that that means that 01:31:10.199 --> 01:31:16.520 they're not there. And it's hard to find things 01:31:16.520 --> 01:31:22.920 on Amazon. There's almost too many books. But, 01:31:22.920 --> 01:31:27.880 like, I don't. I think that we will start to 01:31:27.880 --> 01:31:35.720 see more of it. I hope that this drive for greater 01:31:35.720 --> 01:31:40.060 inclusivity continues to open doors for more 01:31:40.060 --> 01:31:43.560 people to feel confident in writing these books. 01:31:44.859 --> 01:31:49.180 Because they have just as much of a right as 01:31:49.180 --> 01:31:53.720 anyone else. And I'm sure that they have really... 01:31:54.779 --> 01:31:56.939 interesting perspectives on the stories too. 01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:06.239 How about you, Kat? I do have a few. I think 01:32:06.239 --> 01:32:09.500 one of the theoretical limitations to why we 01:32:09.500 --> 01:32:13.619 might not see people of different ethnic backgrounds 01:32:13.619 --> 01:32:18.260 writing in Norse mythology, like if I can imagine 01:32:18.260 --> 01:32:22.470 a perspective in like First of all, with a lot 01:32:22.470 --> 01:32:24.210 of the white supremacy stuff that does go around 01:32:24.210 --> 01:32:28.270 with Norse pathology, as perhaps someone who 01:32:28.270 --> 01:32:31.149 is Black, do you want to expose yourself to that 01:32:31.149 --> 01:32:32.789 kind of thing? Do you want to keep your practice 01:32:32.789 --> 01:32:35.949 private? So there's kind of a gatekeeping thing 01:32:35.949 --> 01:32:38.329 there that might keep them from wanting to create 01:32:38.329 --> 01:32:43.310 a career around a particular subject. Or as well, 01:32:43.550 --> 01:32:48.260 if you are Black, do you... decide to write about 01:32:48.260 --> 01:32:50.279 your heritage like there are different kinds 01:32:50.279 --> 01:32:52.439 of things coming into play there but like um 01:32:52.439 --> 01:32:55.920 no we don't end up writing just one book but 01:32:55.920 --> 01:32:58.520 what is the topic of your heart is it going to 01:32:58.520 --> 01:33:01.140 be northsmith or is it going to be perhaps like 01:33:01.140 --> 01:33:07.539 um your history your um the the ethnic culture 01:33:07.539 --> 01:33:09.720 you come from these kinds like that's a very 01:33:09.720 --> 01:33:12.140 personal thing that people have to answer for 01:33:12.140 --> 01:33:13.779 themselves so i could see those things being 01:33:13.779 --> 01:33:16.520 roadblocks for it people of different ethnicities 01:33:16.520 --> 01:33:19.899 that aren't specifically Scandinavian wanting 01:33:19.899 --> 01:33:23.560 to write in Norse myth. But I do have some. I 01:33:23.560 --> 01:33:25.399 have, unfortunately, I don't remember the man's 01:33:25.399 --> 01:33:30.640 name, but there is a man writing. He is a Black 01:33:30.640 --> 01:33:33.119 man writing Norse mythology, and he wrote the 01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:36.619 book Scotty. I have not read it. It's on my list. 01:33:36.760 --> 01:33:41.000 Everything's on my list. But I have seen him 01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:44.600 around, and it's... a book with like it's blue 01:33:44.600 --> 01:33:46.720 and there's a there's like a world tree on it 01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:48.920 I will just check my Goodreads app one second 01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:54.619 because I'm from your list probably um so he 01:33:54.619 --> 01:33:56.800 is one of the very people of color that I've 01:33:56.800 --> 01:33:59.819 seen writing under Northsmith um and I do hope 01:33:59.819 --> 01:34:02.479 one day too that my mood reading will take me 01:34:02.479 --> 01:34:07.199 to that book um and a lot of the books that I 01:34:07.199 --> 01:34:12.050 do end up having are um more like in diversity 01:34:12.050 --> 01:34:15.789 is more queer representative and so uh Lyra Wolf 01:34:15.789 --> 01:34:20.189 is writing queer Loki stories she's on my shelf 01:34:20.189 --> 01:34:23.989 to be read but she will be eventually it's um 01:34:23.989 --> 01:34:28.609 somewhat spicy queer Loki singing stories and 01:34:28.609 --> 01:34:31.130 there's going to be I believe at least six so 01:34:31.130 --> 01:34:35.489 there's that um the witch's heart is bisexual 01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:40.220 So there's that. And I know that there's more, 01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:42.659 like I have more of them, but the ability to 01:34:42.659 --> 01:34:47.579 recall it on the spot is failing. But if anyone 01:34:47.579 --> 01:34:51.220 is on my Goodreads, Kat Rector Goodreads, I have 01:34:51.220 --> 01:34:54.380 a list of like books that I've read and books 01:34:54.380 --> 01:34:56.359 that I haven't read and things like that. So 01:34:56.359 --> 01:34:58.039 you can go in there and kind of take a look at 01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:01.439 my shortlist. I will be adding both your Goodreads 01:35:01.439 --> 01:35:03.399 links to the blurb at the end of this video. 01:35:03.880 --> 01:35:05.319 it's definitely going to go on there because 01:35:05.319 --> 01:35:07.239 I've got a very long list of read books as well 01:35:07.239 --> 01:35:09.199 as a very long list of to read books my to read 01:35:09.199 --> 01:35:11.079 books list is always getting longer and longer 01:35:11.079 --> 01:35:15.560 and longer yes I found his name it is the author 01:35:15.560 --> 01:35:19.380 of Skadi is Stephen Greyer Williams thank you 01:35:19.380 --> 01:35:23.979 beautiful book yeah I need that book yes like 01:35:23.979 --> 01:35:29.550 immediately yeah very good reviews As Amalia 01:35:29.550 --> 01:35:32.869 was saying, there are definitely lots of opportunities 01:35:32.869 --> 01:35:37.810 for diverse books in Indian self -pub. So anyone 01:35:37.810 --> 01:35:40.810 who's trying to look for more diversity in Northsmiths 01:35:40.810 --> 01:35:43.390 should absolutely give those types of books a 01:35:43.390 --> 01:35:45.890 chance because those are the people who aren't 01:35:45.890 --> 01:35:48.350 being told no by publishers because they don't. 01:35:48.529 --> 01:35:50.810 Publishers choose things that they know they 01:35:50.810 --> 01:35:53.710 can sell. That's an important part of their job. 01:35:53.970 --> 01:35:57.289 And if they don't think that someone's writing 01:35:57.289 --> 01:36:00.420 to market. then, you know, that's not a book 01:36:00.420 --> 01:36:02.300 that's going to get published by like Macmillan. 01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:04.479 So if you're looking for something off the beaten 01:36:04.479 --> 01:36:07.640 path, check the beaten, like off the beaten path 01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:12.739 in Indian. Yeah. And I think that, like, I just 01:36:12.739 --> 01:36:14.819 want to emphasize that this is a failing on my 01:36:14.819 --> 01:36:20.039 part, right? Like the books, I'm sure that there 01:36:20.039 --> 01:36:22.600 are books out there. It's a, it's a legitimate 01:36:22.600 --> 01:36:27.390 failing on my part. And, and I, I haven't, like, 01:36:27.510 --> 01:36:31.649 I don't, this is gonna, I'm really picky about 01:36:31.649 --> 01:36:35.130 mythological retellings. Like, really extremely, 01:36:35.470 --> 01:36:39.670 extremely, extremely picky because I'm pagan. 01:36:41.569 --> 01:36:47.069 So, I'm not always picking those books up at 01:36:47.069 --> 01:36:51.069 all. to be perfectly frank with you because that's 01:36:51.069 --> 01:36:53.229 fine that's fine some authors don't actually 01:36:53.229 --> 01:36:55.369 read the genre they're writing I know I'm a big 01:36:55.369 --> 01:36:58.449 history nerd as well as a Norse myth nerd so 01:36:58.449 --> 01:37:01.029 above these shelves are shelves full of historical 01:37:01.029 --> 01:37:03.229 fiction I mean one of my author friends on there 01:37:03.229 --> 01:37:05.569 doesn't ever read the genre he writes but he 01:37:05.569 --> 01:37:07.350 still writes it really really well and that's 01:37:07.350 --> 01:37:10.779 totally fine um that leads me on to another interesting 01:37:10.779 --> 01:37:13.239 question actually um so we've covered books that 01:37:13.239 --> 01:37:15.279 we recommend for those who are wanting to broaden 01:37:15.279 --> 01:37:17.319 their bookshelf so to speak to better reflect 01:37:17.319 --> 01:37:19.739 society and whatnot and equality and inclusivity 01:37:19.739 --> 01:37:22.800 are there any other titles you would highly recommend 01:37:22.800 --> 01:37:25.920 to viewers who think oh i've not encountered 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:31.100 north fantasy before where do i begin um i i 01:37:31.100 --> 01:37:34.689 already talked about uh Norse Code by Greg Van 01:37:34.689 --> 01:37:37.090 Eekhout, which I think is like a really interesting 01:37:37.090 --> 01:37:41.210 take on a modern -day Ragnarok, and kind of dances 01:37:41.210 --> 01:37:44.869 around the outside, the edges of the myth. One 01:37:44.869 --> 01:37:49.609 of my absolute most favorite reads is Giants 01:37:49.609 --> 01:37:53.130 of the Frost by Kim Wilkins, which features the 01:37:53.130 --> 01:37:58.930 god Vitter, one of Odin's oft -forgotten sons. 01:38:02.639 --> 01:38:05.500 And it's kind of like there's a reincarnation 01:38:05.500 --> 01:38:08.060 thing. So you get part of the book from Vitter 01:38:08.060 --> 01:38:11.260 in Asgard and part of the book from a woman on 01:38:11.260 --> 01:38:15.460 Earth who's having these experiences and really 01:38:15.460 --> 01:38:24.500 weirded out. And I think that S .T. Bend, also 01:38:24.500 --> 01:38:28.340 in the new adult space, has been writing a lot 01:38:28.340 --> 01:38:32.829 of, has written a lot of... norse fantasy um 01:38:32.829 --> 01:38:37.729 perfect order features tear uh her end year series 01:38:37.729 --> 01:38:42.949 features uller um so i mean they're they're ya 01:38:42.949 --> 01:38:47.850 romances but they're i mean go forth apparently 01:38:47.850 --> 01:38:50.829 who would you recommend then cap for beginners 01:38:52.079 --> 01:38:54.159 For beginners, I mean, I think the ultimate, 01:38:54.220 --> 01:38:57.100 ultimate beginner's book is Norse Mythology by 01:38:57.100 --> 01:38:59.199 Neil Gaiman because it's so succinct. It's so 01:38:59.199 --> 01:39:02.800 easy to access. I think it's, like, for the person 01:39:02.800 --> 01:39:07.279 who doesn't know anything, like, that is the 01:39:07.279 --> 01:39:10.800 easiest way to take in the information. But as 01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:12.279 well, like, there are a lot of people, like, 01:39:12.319 --> 01:39:16.359 I've had plenty of reviews that says I am that 01:39:16.359 --> 01:39:20.399 person's first, like, read into any Norse myth. 01:39:20.779 --> 01:39:23.819 And apologies for any inaccuracies that you now 01:39:23.819 --> 01:39:28.880 hold because it's the first one. But like, I 01:39:28.880 --> 01:39:32.079 think if people are looking for accessibility 01:39:32.079 --> 01:39:34.619 in the Norse myth, but aren't looking necessarily 01:39:34.619 --> 01:39:39.539 for the purest version of it, I think that people 01:39:39.539 --> 01:39:42.539 like the author of The Witch's Heart, like that's 01:39:42.539 --> 01:39:46.939 for people who are looking for Circe -like retellings, 01:39:46.939 --> 01:39:53.199 like that's a great place to go. I like a lot 01:39:53.199 --> 01:39:56.539 of my recommendations, sadly, are more mainstream 01:39:56.539 --> 01:39:59.220 things that people are probably recommended like 01:39:59.220 --> 01:40:02.840 a bunch of times. But I think as well, that speaks 01:40:02.840 --> 01:40:07.619 somewhat to how accessible they are. Because 01:40:07.619 --> 01:40:12.479 like they they're written for more mainstream 01:40:12.479 --> 01:40:17.539 audiences. And like, for example, there's a big 01:40:17.539 --> 01:40:20.800 difference between Lyra's book. and Genevieve's 01:40:20.800 --> 01:40:23.560 book like The Witch's Heart is more accurate 01:40:23.560 --> 01:40:27.939 to mythology in certain ways even though it's 01:40:27.939 --> 01:40:30.340 so far removed from the mythology than Lyra's 01:40:30.340 --> 01:40:34.199 is Lyra has like taken a very interesting spin 01:40:34.199 --> 01:40:37.619 on things and like has has really made it what 01:40:37.619 --> 01:40:41.279 she wanted what they want to have from the mythology 01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:46.279 and for people who are open -minded to like wanting 01:40:46.279 --> 01:40:49.770 to read read the mythology but not necessarily 01:40:49.770 --> 01:40:54.130 like the mythology like those yes i really think 01:40:54.130 --> 01:40:55.489 it depends on what you want to get out of it 01:40:55.489 --> 01:40:58.310 what kind of what direction of book that you 01:40:58.310 --> 01:41:01.510 you need to go with and i want to recommend like 01:41:01.510 --> 01:41:05.930 for like basic basic just familiarity with the 01:41:05.930 --> 01:41:09.409 myths um and i i would actually recommend kevin 01:41:09.409 --> 01:41:13.819 crossley holland's oh yes over neil gaiman like 01:41:13.819 --> 01:41:16.699 every day of the week because the end notes are 01:41:16.699 --> 01:41:21.880 phenomenal. He arranges the myths in a chronological 01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:24.779 order that gives you a sense of narrative, which 01:41:24.779 --> 01:41:27.180 I think is really critical for people coming 01:41:27.180 --> 01:41:31.960 to the myths themselves because it can get pretty 01:41:31.960 --> 01:41:40.880 messy. And also I don't think he, I'm sure he 01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:48.560 has a different bias. than Gaiman, but I'm personally 01:41:48.560 --> 01:41:53.840 still mad that Neil Gaiman left Roskva out of 01:41:53.840 --> 01:41:56.539 the adventure with Thialfi and Thor and Loki 01:41:56.539 --> 01:42:03.579 to guard Loki's castle. I'm legitimately extremely 01:42:03.579 --> 01:42:09.479 angry about it. Because here's this peasant girl. 01:42:10.279 --> 01:42:12.779 How many peasant girls do we know who are named 01:42:12.779 --> 01:42:15.779 in any mythology ever in any of these stories? 01:42:15.960 --> 01:42:19.579 And she, she went on this adventure with her 01:42:19.579 --> 01:42:23.239 God and he left her home to care for the goats. 01:42:24.680 --> 01:42:36.500 I mean, that's kind of infuriating. I mean, I 01:42:36.500 --> 01:42:39.460 think he's, he's written really interesting things 01:42:39.460 --> 01:42:43.199 like, uh adam the frost giants his his yes middle 01:42:43.199 --> 01:42:45.939 grade book yeah i've got that it's a world book 01:42:45.939 --> 01:42:49.520 day edition he's really wonderful but i don't 01:42:49.520 --> 01:42:54.800 think his i don't think he necessarily sees why 01:42:54.800 --> 01:43:01.819 it's important to include everyone that's fair 01:43:01.819 --> 01:43:04.579 point and each each reader will have their own 01:43:04.579 --> 01:43:06.739 interpretation of it i of course i don't come 01:43:07.570 --> 01:43:09.510 from an academic or even a pagan background. 01:43:10.050 --> 01:43:12.350 I just come for the fun, basically. That's all 01:43:12.350 --> 01:43:14.390 I have my life is for. I'm just here for the 01:43:14.390 --> 01:43:18.270 fun and the games. But I do have, I don't know 01:43:18.270 --> 01:43:20.369 if you ladies will have seen, Kevin Cross' original 01:43:20.369 --> 01:43:23.289 pitch edition. I actually had the great pleasure 01:43:23.289 --> 01:43:26.329 of meeting him when he came to a Yorbit Biking 01:43:26.329 --> 01:43:27.970 Festival a couple of years ago. I think it was 01:43:27.970 --> 01:43:30.329 probably 2019, just before the pandemic hit, 01:43:30.409 --> 01:43:34.930 if not 2018. And I think, my one sign, I'm just 01:43:34.930 --> 01:43:41.869 checking now. there is it yeah little little 01:43:41.869 --> 01:43:45.050 tiny scribbles just there his autograph but he 01:43:45.050 --> 01:43:47.369 was he was such a genuinely lovely bloke and 01:43:47.369 --> 01:43:49.529 he got so many stories to tell not just about 01:43:49.529 --> 01:43:51.329 north mythology but his entire life was like 01:43:51.329 --> 01:43:54.510 one big crazy adventure not that he met royalty 01:43:54.510 --> 01:43:56.170 i'm sure he had a story to tell about the queen 01:43:56.170 --> 01:44:00.050 mother at one point in his conversation well 01:44:00.050 --> 01:44:03.909 because it was where he was talking to um Gareth 01:44:03.909 --> 01:44:06.970 Williams, a leading expert on Viking Age coins 01:44:06.970 --> 01:44:08.850 from the British Museum. And Gareth Williams 01:44:08.850 --> 01:44:11.130 himself was another epic figure because he was 01:44:11.130 --> 01:44:14.189 behind the incredible, amazing Viking Age exhibition 01:44:14.189 --> 01:44:16.430 that the British Museum did a good, oh gosh, 01:44:16.630 --> 01:44:19.229 eight years or so ago now. But I had the pleasure 01:44:19.229 --> 01:44:21.170 to go on because I worked at a college and I 01:44:21.170 --> 01:44:22.770 was friends with a history teacher and he needed 01:44:22.770 --> 01:44:24.390 another staff member to go along for the back. 01:44:24.960 --> 01:44:28.039 welcome so off i went and it was amazing and 01:44:28.039 --> 01:44:29.539 thankfully some of the artifacts in there were 01:44:29.539 --> 01:44:32.500 so interesting especially there was this tiny 01:44:32.500 --> 01:44:35.060 tiny tiny and it is like literally tiny it's 01:44:35.060 --> 01:44:38.319 millimeters tall this figure of a female figure 01:44:38.319 --> 01:44:40.739 possibly holding a spear or a sword and definitely 01:44:40.739 --> 01:44:42.239 a round shield in front of her i think she's 01:44:42.239 --> 01:44:45.920 called the oh it's got a norse name that i'm 01:44:45.920 --> 01:44:47.420 not going to butcher because i can't pronounce 01:44:47.420 --> 01:44:50.039 it but it's something valkyrie google it she 01:44:50.039 --> 01:44:53.399 is tiny and the fact that she exists prompts 01:44:53.399 --> 01:44:55.800 so many questions in my head and she could totally 01:44:55.800 --> 01:44:58.300 be used in a story totally be used in a story 01:44:58.300 --> 01:45:00.140 whether she's a valkyrie or whether she was Freya 01:45:00.140 --> 01:45:02.640 or whether she meant to represent Frigg just 01:45:02.640 --> 01:45:04.859 so much so it's nice to see those little elements 01:45:04.859 --> 01:45:08.260 of history come through and reflect the stories 01:45:08.260 --> 01:45:11.199 that we've all fallen in love with because alongside 01:45:11.199 --> 01:45:16.079 her there was another tiny tiny tiny and I am 01:45:16.079 --> 01:45:18.840 not over exaggerating it was tiny this little 01:45:18.840 --> 01:45:22.020 figure of Odin on a throne in a female dress 01:45:22.590 --> 01:45:24.670 which the detail definitely looks female, and 01:45:24.670 --> 01:45:27.489 two little ravens either side of him. I thought, 01:45:27.529 --> 01:45:30.069 oh my gosh, it's Odin in a dress! Because, of 01:45:30.069 --> 01:45:32.210 course, he was Cedar Magic. He has Cedar Magic 01:45:32.210 --> 01:45:35.789 and Loki at the flighting debate. Oh, that was 01:45:35.789 --> 01:45:38.090 another fun legend. The line that stuck in my 01:45:38.090 --> 01:45:40.369 head when he calls Raggy mere bench decoration. 01:45:41.630 --> 01:45:44.109 Bench decoration? How insulting can you be? You 01:45:44.109 --> 01:45:45.649 literally sit there and you decorate the bench. 01:45:45.710 --> 01:45:47.890 You do nothing. You have no purpose at all in 01:45:47.890 --> 01:45:50.470 my existence. You're just bench decoration. Loved 01:45:50.470 --> 01:45:55.199 it. Oh. But I know he disses Odin for doing cedar 01:45:55.199 --> 01:45:57.119 magic, which of course is very female oriented 01:45:57.119 --> 01:45:59.460 because Freyja and Frigg and all the other Norns 01:45:59.460 --> 01:46:01.420 are very good at it. But Odin's the one male 01:46:01.420 --> 01:46:04.380 god that does it as well. And that's another 01:46:04.380 --> 01:46:08.100 interesting reflection on how they see gender 01:46:08.100 --> 01:46:10.739 roles and gender abilities and that kind of thing 01:46:10.739 --> 01:46:13.920 in that society. It's coming from Loki. He's 01:46:13.920 --> 01:46:16.760 calling Odin a woman because he does cedar magic 01:46:16.760 --> 01:46:19.090 and yet no other god does. So it's like, it's 01:46:19.090 --> 01:46:21.069 taboo. It's all Odin's dirty secret. We all know 01:46:21.069 --> 01:46:23.590 he does it, but no one talks about it kind of 01:46:23.590 --> 01:46:26.670 thing. But yeah, I think we've talked about so 01:46:26.670 --> 01:46:30.010 much, ladies. And I really appreciated your time 01:46:30.010 --> 01:46:33.170 joining me today on this marathon around the 01:46:33.170 --> 01:46:35.170 nine worlds. And there is probably so much more 01:46:35.170 --> 01:46:37.310 we could talk about, but we will have to save 01:46:37.310 --> 01:46:39.609 it for another day. Because sadly, I've got a 01:46:39.609 --> 01:46:41.590 feeling that my daughter will be picking up soon. 01:46:42.890 --> 01:46:44.930 I can't leave her at nursery, otherwise I'll 01:46:44.930 --> 01:46:46.489 kick her out and she'll be all alone on the road. 01:46:47.130 --> 01:46:49.930 as much fun as i'm having um but i do hope you 01:46:49.930 --> 01:46:55.569 enjoyed yourselves um please tell me if not um 01:46:55.569 --> 01:47:00.409 um and i all i can say is i wish you a happy 01:47:00.409 --> 01:47:03.850 north denver and may all things norse and good 01:47:03.850 --> 01:47:06.970 come your way in future and if you do any more 01:47:06.970 --> 01:47:09.550 north writing i'll be the first to buy it guaranteed 01:47:09.550 --> 01:47:16.829 so thanks again you're very very welcome you're 01:47:16.829 --> 01:47:18.989 very very welcome thank you for agreeing to this 01:47:18.989 --> 01:47:21.590 whole crazy idea of mine so thank you to kat 01:47:21.590 --> 01:47:23.649 rector the wonderful author of the goddess and 01:47:23.649 --> 01:47:25.630 nothing at all available at all good bookstores 01:47:25.630 --> 01:47:28.149 for now she's got a beautiful short story anthology 01:47:28.149 --> 01:47:31.270 that's coming out so accompany it as well and 01:47:31.270 --> 01:47:34.390 of course the wonderful amelia dylan who wrote 01:47:34.390 --> 01:47:37.399 the goddess goddess sorry wrong word the daughter 01:47:37.399 --> 01:47:39.659 the daughter of a thousand years probably just 01:47:39.659 --> 01:47:41.100 probably just think of herself as a goddess at 01:47:41.100 --> 01:47:43.619 times but no she doesn't she's fine but again 01:47:43.619 --> 01:47:45.739 highly recommend and we will put in goodreads 01:47:45.739 --> 01:47:48.399 links to all our authors and myself in the blurb 01:47:48.399 --> 01:47:50.859 underneath this video so you viewers can go click 01:47:50.859 --> 01:47:53.420 browse the many books you've all read or written 01:47:53.420 --> 01:47:56.359 in this case and hopefully join us in exploring 01:47:56.359 --> 01:47:59.000 midgard and beyond too with the craziness that 01:47:59.000 --> 01:48:02.180 is the north guards thank you very much for watching 01:48:02.180 --> 01:48:03.100 bye