So welcome to Family Tree Talk, your favourite
family history podcast. And with me today is
Nathan Ward, as usual. Hello there. And my name
is Helen Tovey, a fellow co -host. And we have
a very special guest with us. So do you know
who this is, Nathan? I don't know. Please introduce
me. So it's Jana Halstein. So if you're into
DNA, you may well have come across her because
she is a guru at DNA and genealogy. But also
she has something which I would say is probably
even closer to her heart than DNA. Is that possible,
Jana? I have to admit, yeah. It's hard for me
to admit, but yeah. So I've been so excited over
the past few months. Well, even back to way back
last year and over the past few years, chatting
to Yana about this. So she came up with a project
called Genealogy for Our Descendants, which completely
turns it on its head because there's so much
about looking back to the past where she's all
about using genealogy to look to the future.
So you like a bit of sci -fi, don't you, Nathan?
I love sci -fi, yes. Yes. So this is where we
even kind of weave into that kind of actually
thinking about the future and what does all the
stuff that we do today as genealogists, what's
the point of it? What are we doing it for? And
so this is what has been Yana's brain, kind of
your brainchild, hasn't it? Your brain baby.
And you've been thinking about it so deeply.
Yes, it has. It has been consuming, I have to
say. And DNA, I still do DNA, but that was kind
of, it stands next to it now. Because I think,
so with genealogy, we use lots of tools, lots
of skills. We work incredibly hard. We're dedicated.
We're finding out lots of information. But it's
not a data gathering exercise by any means at
all. It means something really close to us, doesn't
it? And when we're thinking about doing our family
history, quite often, Nathan and I have this
conversation often, we are... finding these facts.
And what we're always trying to do is fill in
the story between the facts. And this is where
you come in with what you intend for us to leave
for our descendants. And just to say, we mean
the term descendants really broadly because we've
all got aunties and uncles in our families, family
friends who mean a huge amount to us and our
lives wouldn't be the same without them. So we
don't just mean like your literal direct line
pedigree chart descendants. We mean the future,
the people of the future, don't we? Exactly.
I think it all started when I dove into my grandmother
and there were a couple of more people, but mainly
it started with my grandmother a few years ago.
She passed away over 20 years ago. And I realized
that with all the information that I gathered,
I have so many sort of like black holes. And
it's not the data, it's... What was she feeling?
What did she think? How did she overcome this
or the other challenge? She had a loss of, she
lost her baby, her baby girl when she was one
year old. I had a loss between my two boys. How
did she deal with that? And I felt like I was
so frustrated. And then it was like a moment
of a eureka. And I started thinking, OK, I cannot
do anything about the missing parts of my grandmother's
life. And I have quite a few people that are
still that at the time was still alive. And even
they could not fill in the gaps. So I said, OK,
there's nothing I can do about her. But what
can I do for my next three, four, ten? 50 generations.
What am I leaving and who will they know? Will
they know me? Because I have lots of things on
social media, but is that truly me? And that
kind of started this whole thing rolling and
realizing that it's not the big things. It's
not the big stuff. It's the daily things. I would
love to have known what the... day in my grandmother's
life was like when she was 19, when she was 20.
And that's something I will never get, but I
can leave that if I record it, if I document
it, if I, you know, put my mind to it. This is
a treasure that I can give for future generations
and making sure they know the real me and not
just the stories that other people will tell
about me. What do you think about that, Nathan?
Well, I can relate to that a lot, can't I? Last
week I was talking about my granddad and I was
talking about my family tree in general and how
doing the research for like the later, for the
further back generations, you get more documents
to look at because obviously they're available.
Whereas my granddad, he doesn't hit any censuses.
So there's very few documents about him. And
I've only got like two or three relatives alive
who actually know actual real stories about him.
So there's just a massive blank as to who this
guy is. And it's just piecing information together
from my mum and my dad and from my auntie and
my uncle. And then my mum's got this trunk with
a few little bits and bats. And a couple of weeks
ago, I found out that my grandad, through Helen's
probing, because she asked what he did in the
war, and I didn't know. So I was like, right,
I need to go find this out. I didn't think he
went to war. And he didn't. And then when I asked
my mum, it turns out that he actually worked
for an electrical company building aeroplanes
for the war. And it's a story that I'd never
heard before. Nobody ever mentioned it. And it's
like suddenly made me think, wow, I absolutely
know nothing about this guy other than he was
the guy that gave me a tizer every Saturday whilst
watching horse racing. You know, there were no
blanks to fill in for me because I just didn't
know anything. It's weird. It's sad and scary,
isn't it? How quickly the things can get lost.
Sorry, Yana. Now, what I was saying is, think
about how much you can leave for your future,
you know, for the future generations. Just the
daily stuff. Just, I mean, one of the things
that I encourage people to do is a day in my
life. Just walk around with a recorder. If you
are too shy for a camera, that's fine. Just record
yourself throughout the day. What are you doing?
I'm talking about the smallest stuff. Do you
make coffee? Do you prepare your coffee in the
morning? Like, what does it sound like? What
does it feel like to have your first cup of coffee
in the morning? That's how mundane, and I'm doing
air quotes, mundane, it sounds, it feels like
mundane to us. But think about what your feelings
would be like if you could hear your grandfather's
voice. telling you what a day in his life looked
like, how he woke up in the morning, the work
that he went to do, the frustrations that he
felt, sadness, joy, anger, anything. Can you
imagine how precious that would have been for
you? It's interesting, isn't it? This is slightly
tangential, but I had a friend who died recently.
we have lots of small things that we used to
do together and one of them was like doing Rubik's
cubes and things like that. And it's such a small
incidental thing, but every now and again I'll
do a cube and I want to talk to him about it
and I can't because he's not here. But equally,
it's become a part of the fabric of who I am.
But if I don't tell somebody that I do that,
then nobody will know that Nathan likes to sit
around doing cubes for hours and getting really
frustrated. So yeah, it's good, isn't it, to
pull all those details together because you just
don't think about them. They're such small incidental
things, but they are the fabric of who you are.
Exactly. Because I think that so many things
have become just norm, regular things that we
do without thinking. And my whole idea is that
record that. If you have a Rubik's Cube, just
have one, not necessarily maybe the one that
you keep on playing with, but just have one with
a note. Or a piece of paper that tells the story.
And then you're telling the story of two people.
You're telling the story of you. And you're telling
the story of your friend. And for now, this is
kind of keeping your friend alive. But then one
day you'll be gone. It's like I'm saying one
day we will be the ancestors. And what a beautiful
story that would be for people in 100 years that
will find this Rubik's Cube and find the story
next to it. And you will become a person. You
will come alive again and not just a name in
the tree. Yeah, that sounds great. We're always
talking about it, me and Helen. We're always
looking for the stories because as much as it's
good getting back generation after generation.
It is just a name and a date at the end of the
day. If you don't have any texture, it's a bit
flat, isn't it? On the one hand, these are the
experiences, and I love the fact that these little
daily experiences and these shared memories,
they are really meaningful, aren't they? And
they shed a lot of light on the wider world of
how we socialise with each other, like you socialising
with your dear friend Nathan. When you said about
a cup of tea, my mum would say when she was at
work in the 1960s, in the morning, a lady would
come round with a trolley and they would have
a cup of coffee and a biscuit. In the afternoon,
the same lady would come round with a trolley
and they would have a cup of tea and a biscuit.
But that just shows you about different employment
that you could afford to employ a specific person
to wander around the office with a trolley, dealing
out one cup of tea and one cup of coffee. So
a tiny cup of tea and a tiny cup of coffee, not
like the massive, massive mugs that we drink
now of tea and coffee. It's just like all these
little social insights. But apart from the experiences,
which I do love, Hiana, one of the other things
which I find hardest to do is you talk about,
like, what do we value in our life? And for me,
that's a really hard thing to try and pin down.
Do you want to talk a bit about that and why
that is important? Yeah, I think, again, it all
started when I think about a year ago when I
started with the workshop. And the first thing
I realized talking to people is that they are
not really sure what makes them tick, what's
important in their lives, why they do what they
do. So I decided, OK, let's go back to basics.
Before we write our messages for next generations
and before we tell them what a good life, what
living a meaningful life means, let's understand
what makes us tick. And it starts with close
to 100 different values which you have to choose.
And then you narrow it down and narrow it down
and narrow it down. Without thinking, that's
the whole idea. Because if you think too much,
you already start putting the thought of, oh,
what will people say? What would other people
think about me? But if you do it, you know, quickly,
just from your gut, then you choose the values
that are really important to you. And then you
look at them. And I've had people looking at
the values that they chose and like, huh. That
makes sense. Now I understand why I chose this
job rather than the other, why I chose this path
rather than something else. Like all of a sudden
it clicks and people understand why they do what
they do. And only then you can move one step
forward into understanding. What is the message
that you want other people to know? What is the
message you want your descendants to know? What
were you all about? And that was fascinating.
And I think with each workshop, I had my own
experiences. I had my own way of, I mean, I went
through the process as well. And I had quite
amazing revelations, I have to say. One, like...
If I think back, one of the very significant
revelations that somebody had, it was a woman,
she was 65 years old, and she started with, I've
got nothing to write. I said, okay, you don't
have to. Just with every exercise that I do,
I have a few questions. And so, well, don't write
anything because it's... writing something some
some people feel that it's overwhelming and i'm
not a writer i i can't write my life story whatever
i said fine you don't have to all you need to
do is just answer a few questions and she did
and it ended up with us waiting for her to finish
writing because once she started she couldn't
stop and when she was finished All of a sudden,
because there's a certain drill, a certain exercise
that I do with the home, I don't want to, you
know, give away anything, but there's a certain
exercise that I do. And the result of that was
that she realized that one of the values that
she lives by was actually, if we use, you know,
the... the world of plants, it was planted in
her at the age of five. And she only realized
that at the age of 65. And that was such a wow
moment because all of a sudden everything fell
into place and she understood all the choices
that she made through her life when she followed
that value that she upheld so highly. But she
could never explain why. So at the age of 65,
she finally realized why and the fact that she
already started that at the age of five. That
is amazing, isn't it? When you talk about leaving
things for the future and what do we want to
leave behind us, that can feel like a kind of,
wait, wait, wait, I don't want to leave planet
Earth. We all hope we have many more years and
decades ahead of us. Speaking to you in the past
and reading your writing together, you've said
that actually taking that time right now in our
lives to have a think about our values, then
it really helps us actually lead a better life
now. So your friend there, the person who, or
your student, who six decades after she had that
value instilled in her, suddenly realised what
an impact it had had on her whole life. Then
if we all just take a moment to stop and think
about our values, it's kind of a wake up call
in a really beautiful way, isn't it? That's how
it all started. I mean, it all starts with a
certain experience that gives birth to something
bigger, that gives birth to something even bigger.
And I truly believe that because sometimes we
can realize that maybe a value that we've been
upholding or living by for a long period of time.
It's something that actually served us when we
were younger. But now, you know, when we're older,
it might be blocking us. It stopped serving us
as human beings, trying to live a better life.
And unless you stop and look at it and face it
head on, because some of the things are uncomfortable.
Especially, you know, like you said, we don't
want to think about the world without us. It's
unthinkable. And if you're superstitious, I mean,
with my mother, there is no talk about death,
like nothing, which is completely different from
the way I... talk about things or you know my
uh my my sons we talk about death that we have
no taboos no sacred cows we talk about anything
and everything but with my mother you cannot
discuss death because in her mind when you discuss
it you you bring it forward and i'm like mom
you're gonna die when you're gonna die it's what
you do with your life here and now but sometimes
When we overcome that, when we pass that superstitions
of, if we talk about death, we invite it into
our lives, because we don't. We have no saying
when we're going to leave this earth. So when
you pass that, sometimes you can realize that
you were living by something that is no longer
serving you. And when you realize that, you have...
the option, you have the choice of doing something
else. One of the very emotional things that I
had in one of the workshops, one of the girls
rang me the next morning and she said, I got
up this morning, it was at the end of the three
sessions, and she said, I got up this morning
a different woman. I am aware of the choices
that I can make. And for me, that was, oh my
God. And sometimes it's even when you go through
something and you offer other people to go through
a similar process, I don't always know where
those people will end up, but it's always...
At least with my experience, it's always a better
place. It's a place of choice. And every time
we get to a place of choice is a better thing
for us because then we choose what is right for
us today and not what was right for us 10 or
20 years ago. Yeah, I love all that. I love being
reflective. In the last year or two, I've done
a lot of self -reflection. It's amazing the things
that can stack up in your life that you don't
know why they're there until you question them.
Like for years and years and years, I thought
I hated dogs and everyone was like, oh, you hate
dogs. That's awful. Dogs are the best thing ever.
And I went, no, they're awful, blah, blah, blah.
And then I traced it back. And the reason I hated
dogs was because my mum told me I hated dogs
because she hated them. And I'd never been allowed
to make that distinction myself, but I just lived
with it. And it was, it's a small example, but
it was a huge example. It's huge. It is really.
I mean, think about it. You have lived by something.
Not even a lot of people have traumas. Okay.
I mean, I was expecting you to say, oh, because
I realized, you know, that I was bitten by a
dog when I was a year old, whatever. So that's
a trauma that is. kind of implemented itself
in you and then when you grow up you don't know
why you don't have you don't like dogs but that
is something not something that you experienced
it's something that someone else told you about
you and that's how you lived your life can you
imagine can you understand i mean i'm like blown
away i mean this is huge this is a huge realization
Yeah, well, it is. It's massive, isn't it? But
now I'm like, right, OK, I can go meet people
who've got dogs and maybe I'll stroke the dog
and see how I feel about it. And it's a different
world now. It's like, OK, yeah, I'm not scared
of these dogs. I would definitely agree. So I
was so privileged earlier this year when Hiana
was explaining her work to me. Then she took
me through four sessions and it was quite emotional
and messy, wasn't it? Like tissues were needed.
A lot of laughing happened as well. It's like
a proper roller coaster. But I would definitely
agree with you at the end that it wasn't just
a positive experience in the moment and positive
experience doing Yana's programme. It was also
just afterwards, just some things which I'd lived
with for a long time in my life were just kind
of parked. And it sounds weird, but literally
you can be like, I've realised that. Literally
wrapped it up with a bow and gone, that was then,
moving on now. And it's cool. It's really nice.
Because it gives you space in your life not to
have those things there. And so you can start
trying other things and different ways of looking
at things and different ways of interacting.
And maybe even one to get a dog, Nathan. Who
knows? Let's not go that far. I'm definitely
a cat man. You don't want to be disloyal to the
cats. You never know. You never know. Never say
never. Yeah. I also discovered, this is whimsical,
I am a little bit whimsical, but my interest
in women and cars is all based on watching the
A -Team too much as a child. That's where my
ideals of what a car should look like and what
a woman should be in it. It's because I wanted
to be first from the A -Team, but that was literally,
you know, a fun thing in my past that actually
has just drawn my interest continuously. Like,
oh, curly -haired woman, I'm interested. It's
weird. We have a relation who fancied Bart Simpson
and wanted to marry him. It can get very complicated
very quickly. I don't know where to go with that.
You can't go anywhere. We had to just break it
to her gently that that was going to be unlike
she was ever going to marry Bart. But yeah, she's
now a happy adult. She likes a bad boy. Well,
he's just an animation figure is the main snag.
Yeah, but with you, Helen, we had some creepy
stuff as well. I mean, stuff we had... Well,
I was talking about this at the weekend because
I was talking about... So why we're talking to
you today is partly to tell people in September
we're going to do this very cool course. It's
a four -week course and it's where virtual world
meets real world because it's going to be on
Zoom so anyone can take part wherever you are
in the world. as lana jeffrey on tuesday evenings
to come along at 6 30 uk time and hiana will
take us through the series of very simple looking
questions but before you know it you're going
to be having a really exciting experience because
on the one hand you'll be checking in with what
your values are today and where you want to what
you want to do with your life like what's really
precious to you how do you want to spend your
time who do you want to spend it with what do
you do what what you What do you value about
your life today and appreciating your everyday
life? And then on the other hand, you're going
to be making little recordings of this. And this
is where it meets the real world. It's not all
just on Zoom. Yana's got lots of worksheets which
you can fill in and write letters. And we've
created this beautiful time capsule, haven't
we, Yana? We're so excited about it. So it's
kind of a genealogy time capsule, but it's kind
of also just every house should have one. Every
person should have one. It's a beautiful box
with a magnetic close. It's white. It's unbranded.
So it can just fit into your house, whatever
your vibe is. And then inside there are lots
of little pouches and little boxes. there is
a wooden stamp with a brass, what do you call
it, the metal bit on the end, with a wax candle.
So you can stamp your letters to the future with
a wax seal, just like out of history, because
Keanu and I are keen history fans, so we couldn't
forgo that. It's got ribbons to tie up your letters
to the future. It's got all that sort of thing.
So you can make a little time capsule. So obviously
you can't fit everything that's meaningful into
your life into a little box, which is about a...
five size so imagine fold a piece of paper in
half it's that size and then quite deep maybe
um like 10 8 10 centimeters deep you can't fit
your whole life into there but what it is it's
like a little time capture which can also point
as a kind of treasure map to other things around
your house books that mean things to you a photo
album that means things to you and then you can
partly bequeath practical things to people but
more importantly you can say i want you to have
this because this is what I value in you. This
is why you're precious to me. And this is why
this object was precious to me. And this is why
it's that things aren't just objects. It's a
meaningful dialogue and experience with the people
in our present life and on into the future and
making things matter. Yeah. Would you say? Yeah,
because it's all about the stories. And I've
also, I've realized that people, when you talk
to people about telling their story, It's intimidating.
And they keep saying, oh, it's too much, it's
too big. And I think that what we do during the
workshop is just bits and pieces, baby steps,
the small things. Because at the end of the day,
the small things are what's important. And they're
amazing. And so exciting time capsule that they
will have. It's only a kickstart. They can duplicate
that. They can buy others for other people. They
can have a bigger one for themselves. But this
is kind of a roadmap or a sample of what can
be done. And it's super, super exciting. It is
so exciting. It made me forget my very exciting
story. Shall I quickly say what it was? Because
she said about it. So I had this, I was doing
the programme with Yana. I'm really excited about
the time capsule in case you haven't guessed.
Anyway, so I was doing the programme with Yana
and I think I was about three weeks in and I
was sitting on, I have a little room upstairs,
which is my office. I was sitting on the floor
sewing and I'd been reflecting on what lots of
what Yana and I had been talking about and how
I'd had some things which I just couldn't move
on in my life, like some real feelings of resentment
and which is not nice to miss about. yourself
I just couldn't let it go I kept feeling like
a bit bitter a bit angry a bit resentful and
I wasn't wasn't I didn't like this about myself
and it was to do with very specific aspects of
my life anyway I was just sitting there sewing
and reflecting and then and it was and I was
piecing it all together and then I just finished
sewing and suddenly I have a little biscuit tin
on the top of my bookshelf and in there is letters
from the past like which have been sent to me
through my life obviously not all of them just
like a little subset and the lid of the biscuit
tin flew off the top of the tin and just landed
at my feet with this massive clatter and i know
that sounds bonkers but it whether you believe
in poltergeist or not it's irrelevant but the
impact it had on my physiology it was gave me
a massive shock and it made me remember this
feeling of like i want to park that feeling of
resentment and move on and it literally was like
shock therapy and i that was probably six seven
months ago now and i'm just literally i can talk
about the things which i found stressful then
and they just don't don't get my blood up i'm
just like that was then it's weird very thankful
to you That was creepy, you've got to admit.
I know, I know. But I love the fact that the
biscuit tin... We always talk about the things
you keep in biscuit tins as family historians.
Do you have Granny's biscuit tin, which has got
the old medals in it? I was like, oh my God,
it actually was a biscuit tin as well. So without
being too much of a geniality cliché, it was
a biscuit tin. But I had someone who told me
about... A very, you know, a similar experience
of she was writing about her impact. She wasn't
sure how much of an impact she made in other
people's lives. And one of the exercises, she
started writing about it. And then, and she had
a really book, a really big bookshelf. And she
had an envelope that was stuck between two books,
right? And while she was writing about what impact
she had on other people's lives, the envelope,
I mean, this is, I mean, this is photographs.
I mean, this sounds creepy. The envelope just
flew, just came out of in between the books.
And in that envelope, she had a letter from somebody
that she helped find jobs. kind of sought her
life out years before. And there was the letter
and the photograph of that woman with her sister
or whatever. And she completely freaked out.
It was out of nowhere. And it wasn't like the
books were loose. There was no reason for that
envelope to just pop out. in between from in
between the books and that when she told me about
it that reminded me of your tin of your lid flying
flying over and landing at your feet so so nathan
if you're going to do this course in september
just make sure you haven't got any heavy objects
on your bookshelf okay that's obvious just stand
well clear put a little hard hat on you never
know what's going to happen next So, Jana, it's
been so great to talk to you. So you've given
us a really cool project, which any of us could
just take a start today. And so that is, wherever
we are, we could do like a 24 -hour project from
now. Just record, you know, what we're eating
and drinking, what we're daydreaming about, who
we may be chatting to, what our working life's
like. Just give it a go for one day. Yeah. You
never know what... From what you say or leave
today, what will be the inspiration for the next
generations or the three or four or five generations
to come? Or how? And I'll just wrap up with this,
you know, going back to my grandmother. When
I lost my baby, I felt so broken, so alone, even
though I had so many people around me, but I
felt broken. As a woman, as a mother, I felt
all alone. And I know that if I could read something
from my grandmother talking about her loss, telling
me how she overcame that loss and what helped
her, I know, I know I would have, I mean, she
has been such an inspiration for me all my life.
I know that I would have. drank her you know
every word and have that as something that could
uplift me from a very very low place in my life
so you never know what will uplift that person
100 years from now yeah yeah i know what you're
doing is very very special yeah thank you and
thank you for having me i I love talking about
it and, you know, spreading the word and helping
people realize that they don't have to go big.
On the contrary, go small because those are the
moments that will empower other people. Those
are the moments that will inspire other people.
Those are the moments that will keep you alive
for other people. And if anybody has a copy of
Family Tree with them, which I know lots of you
are Family Tree readers, then in the last two
issues, then you can get Yana's articles or you
can head over to our blog. And then if you go
into the content library and then look for Yana's
articles there. We put it in one big long article
so you can read it all in one go, just free,
wherever you are in the world, because this is
a really important message to get out. So thank
you so much, Yana. Thank you. yes thanks jenna
lovely to meet you you too thank you so much