Hello everybody and welcome to Family Tree Talk,
your favourite family history podcast. I'm Nathan
and with me as always is... Helen Tovey. Hi Helen,
you alright? I'm very well, yeah, how are you?
Yeah, I'm alright, surviving. I say I'm very
well, I have got hay fever so I apologise in
advance if there's suddenly an explosion in anybody's
ear, it's just me sneezing, it's not contagious,
it's just annoying. Maybe Nathan will be able
to edit them out. Maybe, maybe. Depends on how
much you do sneeze. Yes, and sincere sympathies
to any other hay fever sufferers around the world.
It's very annoying, isn't it? It is. I used to
be really bad with hay fever. I literally couldn't
go outside because my face would swell. And then
I don't know whether it's contact lenses and
the fact that I run all the time now, but it
doesn't affect me anymore. It's weird. That's
interesting. So maybe if you're outside in the
fresh air, you're getting less hay fever, whereas...
My sympathies would have been going out to our
ancestors who were working in the fields and
you don't have a choice but to be an agricultural
labourer. Oh, God, if you have hay fever and
that's your job, you're really up against it.
But that's interesting. Maybe it's a more modern
growing thing. Yeah, maybe I'm just an oddity.
But like in my younger years, every summer I'd
hide, literally just hide in the house and watch
Wimbledon or whatever was on TV and like not
want to go outside at all. And now. I don't laugh
at my children because they've got hay fever,
but I'm like, thank God I don't have the hay
fever anymore. It's weird. Well, I think I've
gone past the age of growing out of hay fever.
I think that would have happened if it was going
to happen. Well, I'm going to say that running's
cured it and everybody should go out running,
but I'm an advocate for that stuff. Yeah. I've
been having a very exciting time recently, Nathan.
Not with my own family history, but we've been
doing plotting and planning for Family Tree Live.
All right, cool. Really good fun. Yeah, so just
to recap for anybody in case you don't know.
So next year, a whole year away, 2027. In May,
we're going to do a two day family history show
slap bang in the middle of England, just north
of Birmingham at a place called Statfold Country
Park. And it's got steam railways you can ride
on. It's got a lovely exhibition space, which
we're going to have jam packed with family history
things. And it's got lecture space. So we're
just going to have loads of fun. Those are all
vehicles you can imagine. Yeah. Lots of old amusements
as well. Definitely. How can I forget that? It's
the National Fairground Museum as well. You're
quite right. Yes. Carousels. You can go on the
carousel, can't you? And the dodgems. And there's
this rocket ride, which if you dare, you can
go on there. That does look a bit speedy for
my liking. Yes. So we've been planning, we're
gradually shaping up, you know, what we're going
to be doing there. We want to make it so that
if you're just a little bit curious about family
history, you could come along with your family.
Start learning about the past, learning which
way up to hold the census record if you had one
in front of you and what it might tell you about
your family. So really help people kind of dip
their toe in if they're right at the start of
it. But if they've been doing it for ages, you
want it to have loads of new information they
can find, loads of nostalgia and good fun catching
up with other family history nuts as well. Yeah,
sounds good. Getting lost in the world of family
history. Oh, so good. Yeah, yeah. Lots of cheering.
Yes. I have to do that annoying thing. I can't
tell you any details yet because I've just got
to make sure they're all firmed up. But it's
sounding very exciting so far. Well, let's keep
everybody intrigued. Yes, yes. Then on my own
family history front, I'm doing an inventory.
It's a little bit different. Wow, that sounds
thrilling. I know. It is. It's as thrilling as
it sounds. But also it's a dangerous kind of
inventory to do. Because next to my genealogy
goals, you know, I said I wasn't going to mention
the lock, lock. So I'm not going to mention that
anymore. So I've moved on to my next goal, which
is making sure I really have digitized properly
all of the albums that my uncle gave me quite
a few years ago, three or four years ago, before
I hand them back to him in September when we
go to see him in September. Some of the projects
are digitized, some I hadn't digitized, some
are digitized, but that wasn't very happy with
the photography to redo them. It's doing your
inventory, which is super boring, but the problem
is the material I'm looking at is old photos.
So the capacity for getting completely sidetracked
and stopping doing what I should be doing is
huge. The intrigue's there. It's bad, yes. That
sounds like a really cool thing to do there.
It is a really cool thing to do, yeah. And I
also had such a lovely little family history
win this week. I was in the swing park with my
dear little grandson and I was showing him actually
pictures of my other daughter's tortoise, random.
And then because I'd been sending my other daughter...
photos of the ancestors as babies because she
wanted to see them then he caught sight of these
and he's like who's that who's that so i was
saying well this is granny this is great granny
all this sort of thing and then we came to great
granny's granny and he was very direct i was
interested in his language he went is she dead
which is not we wouldn't be as adults we barely
ever use that word anymore we much more Kind
of gentle how we phrase it. We say passing on
and past. Whereas he was just like out with it.
And I was like, well, yes, she is dead, but she
had a very long, happy life. And so then, accidentally,
I wasn't even meaning to do any sneaky family
history. I was telling him all about her long
life because she was lucky. She had a long life
and she had four children and, you know, a lucky
life with lots of dogs and lots of golf. And
I said about she had a job that she loved a long
time ago and she worked on this amazing big boat
and had to wear. I said it was a black coat with
yellow buttons. It was obviously navy blue because
it's in the Navy, isn't it? It looks black coat
with yellow buttons. And then he wanted to see
a picture of the boat. So I quickly Googled one
up and I had forgotten what a splendid boat it
was. this massive boat, hundreds of feet long,
three masts, multiple sails, and literally his
eyes popped out. So I kind of secretly hope that
he'll remember seeing this amazing boat and then
sometime later when he's really old, like 10
years old or something, it will come back in
his mind and he'll start to want to learn a little
bit more. Yeah, that sounds good. That sounds
like a story that's been passed down to me from
my grandparents where I come on this podcast
and I'm like, yeah, something to do with the
Concorde. Yes. Yes, it'll be that situation.
He'll go, a really big boat. I don't know anything
else about it. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. But it's
a generation stack up because that's his two
times great granny. Right. It obviously is a
bit, which is kind of obvious, but it's still
astonishing. So when we think of our own two
times great granny, they seem way back when.
We meet them. Well, very rarely. A few very lucky
people meet them, but most people don't. I was
having a surreal. I don't know if it was a waking
dream or a daydream the other day about boats.
Hmm. So, this is weird. I might even cut this
out of the podcast. But, like, inventing a boat,
right, let's say one, this is right, this is
really bad conventional wisdom on my part, but
let's say the Vikings invented boats. I don't
know who invented boats, but obviously we've
got old school navigation where they could only
get around the coast, they couldn't actually
leave. the land because they were too scared
to get lost. Yet all around the world, different
people were building boats and they were watertight
and they didn't have the tools that we've got
today. It's just terrifying. It just intrigued
me. How did that information get passed around
the world? Am I talking nonsense? No, you're
not. I've got a few vague bits of knowledge.
Meep, meep, meep, alert, I'm going into territory
I wasn't expecting to talk about. It's as well
as I can remember on the spot because Nathan's
just dumped me in it. So there's lots of things
going on here. One is that our ancestors weren't
terrified to leave the land. The land is mainly
forested in many parts of the world. So you try
walking through a forest. Next time you throw
a ball for a dog and it goes into the forest
and you have to wade through five metres of undergrowth
to find the ball. That's to picture your ancestors
are out trying to get around most of the landmass.
The Romans, we go, oh, the Romans were amazing.
They built these Roman roads. But that was only
2 ,000 years ago. So obviously you've got 10,
20, 30 ,000 more years where people are travelling
around without the Roman roads, aren't they?
So people are very happy to get in a boat. And
even in Victorian times, they might get in a
boat and travel down from Newcastle to London
on the boat because it's easier than going on
the bumpy old. stagecoach obviously the railways
made it easier blah blah blah so they weren't
frightened of the water and then there's fantastic
stories this is where i'm getting into even more
dangerous territory but it's people who um oh
don't do it helen but i think there's connections
between hawaii and polynesia and big people doing
massive oceanic journeys in basically hollowed
out logs multiple tens of thousand years ago
and the technology is the same and there's genetic
connections between people and so there's partly
people would travel huge incomprehensible distances
in hollowed out logs partly there's Pangaea which
when we were when our parents were at school
or my parents definitely I don't even think Pangaea
had been discovered and so Pangaea is when the
kind of knowledge that the continents separated
and that's why South America and Africa looked
like they could fit together because at one point
they had fitted together in Pangaea when it was
one global continent so apparently that was a
big discovery in the mid -20th century and then
Then since then, they've discovered that before
Pangaea, there was multiple continents. So there's
multiple continents, then there's one continent,
now there's multiple continents. So our whole
sense of borders and boundaries and what it's
like to travel is just bonkers different to what
it's like today. Yeah, sorry, I realised it's
just out there and just off on one. No, it's
interesting though. Your knowledge base is crazy,
but equally, you've probably just watched Moana
by the sounds of it. My knowledge base is sketchy.
Like all of those things, I'll probably get two
out of ten. If anyone wants to be diligent or
anyone knows more, please do let us know. But
it's that sort of rough idea. The core of what
I've said is roughly right. It's just, yeah,
built like these big boats. I'm going to talk
about running again. No, I'm not. Yes, I am.
No, I'm not. They're like big and wooden. How
did they know they were going to float? And how
did they know they were watertight? And they
were made of wood. It's just freaking me out
a little bit today. I also realised whilst talking
to you, the reason I thought that they could
only go around the coast and not get any further
because of a computer game called Civilisation.
In Civilisation, you had to evolve your race
and... Unless you'd unlocked navigation, you
could only use boats around the coast because
you'd get lost. And once you got unlocked navigation,
you could go out to sea. Fascinating. So what
does navigation, what tools does navigation give
you in which era? How do they work that out for
you? Oh, I can't remember now. You're asking
a big question there. You just have to... No,
I can't remember. Because we're really ignorant,
aren't we? So both my maternal granny and grandpa,
for different reasons, one was in the RAF and
one was in the... And so they both learnt about
the stars and navigating by the stars. Yeah.
I think that's why they learnt it. Maybe they
just learnt it because that's what people learnt
back in the day. Whereas I was like, there's
no way I could do that. No, I always know when
I'm in Leeds because I can see Orion's Belt.
But again, but equally, that must be a time of
year thing as well because obviously we're spinning
about. I feel like I'm making like a real fool
out of myself today. You're not, but there are
some really, you find it kind of... It is like
family history humour, isn't it? History humour,
because it's just so different. My husband, one
of his many loves is boats and boat building.
And I remember he was learning about Second World
War lifeboats and how they would get made with
a proper, like a really strong canopy over the
top so that when they got dumped into the sea,
even at great speed, they would bob up again
to the surface. That's great. I can't remember
the name of the guy. He's a very famous boat
builder who designed these. I mean, he also designed
lots of civilian boats as well in that kind of
typical Second World War era of lots of kind
of Heath Robinson innovation. But inside the
boat, there would be the manual of how you're
going to survive on this lifeboat. And it's not
like a handy app with a QR code or anything.
It literally looks like yellow pages. So you've
got these flimsy little sheets. or this flimsy
little paper is a great big chunky tome and you're
going to have to read this potentially by torchlight
or candlelight getting blown out in the sea wind.
If you're getting shipwrecked in the Second World
War, there's probably a battle going on near
you or there's a storm. You don't end up in a
lifeboat by accident. Something's gone really
wrong by the time you're in the lifeboat and
then you're happy to read the yellow pages by
torchlight at best. I'm like, man, it's bonkers.
I hope those pages are waterproof as well. Exactly.
I didn't even know that they were. And you're
the lucky one because you were in the lifeboat.
Wow. Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? That's why history
is so fun, though. You know, you could go about
your boring little day, each of us in our lives,
and we could get stressed because we've got a
parking ticket or we've got stress because we
forgot to send a Father's Day card or whatever
it is. But in the scheme of things, it's most
of us, most of the time, thank goodness, it's
small. Yeah? We're not in the middle of shark
-infested water trying to read the yellow pages
by torchlight before another bomber comes over
and tries to get us. Yeah. I've just realised
where this train of thought came from. Yeah.
I was daydreaming about going to a pub quiz and
then I was like having a memory of going to a
pub quiz with a friend who was apparently good
at Spanish. And one of the questions on the last
quiz I went to with them was, what is the Spanish
word for Navy? And the answer is Armada. Yes.
She didn't know it. She put La Neve or something
like that. Anyway, but then it got me thinking
about, like, I remember, like, they had, like,
Royal Mail stamps for the Armada in, like, the
80s, and they were really cool, and the ships
looked really just, you know, beautiful. And
I think my thought process was, like, that design
of ship is, like, emulated throughout the world,
yet, obviously, travel wasn't as quick or easy,
so people had to move around the world. training
people how to build these boats that all looked
exactly the same and were really big and really
heavy, yet they still floated. That's it. That's
my mindset. Sorry about my rant. No, it's interesting.
And also, probably, if it's anything to do with
military, they probably weren't training. Probably
what they did was they captured the enemy tech
and then copied it and improved it just like
we do today. Yeah, I guess so. They're just such
big things, though, aren't they? The galleons
are massive. I know they're made of wood which
floats, but they're really heavy. It's just fascinating.
It is fascinating. You could get concrete boats
that float. That's not going to make your head
melt. Concrete boats? That float. I know. Never
heard of it. It's funny. So as to our family
history, so I've got a lot to do with my inventory.
I've got to be really organised, which is not
playing to my strengths. Hmm. Yes. What I need
is a reader to come up with a really good Excel
sheet for me. Yeah, or somewhere that you can
look at your photographs without actually seeing
anything. Without actually looking at them. That
looks interesting. Yes. I mean, that's where
AI would come in handy. I can't think exactly
how, but it wouldn't get, well, it does get sidetracked
as a rabbit hole, but it doesn't really. It would
be able to have a lot more self -discipline than
me. I'm not friends with AI this week. It's in
my bad books. Is it? Why is that then? I'm just
terrified by it. I have weeks when I'm quite
happy using it and I have other weeks when I'm
not. Do you know, I have that ambivalent relationship
as well. Sometimes I'm like, Helen, keep modern,
learn about it. And other times I'm like, I'm
a depressing sidetrack and I want to keep real.
And I feel like I'm mad. I feel like this week
I want to just go hide in the woods with a little
knife and do some wood carvings. I feel like
I want to feel real this week and the AI's terrifying
me that it's not. Dunno. I'm very whimsical this
week, whatever. I think the main thing is we
need to keep educated, don't we? Yes. We need
to be realistic about any small -scale risks
of AI that are within our control and make sure
we don't cause problems with them. So don't accidentally
upload details of living people and don't accidentally
put things in there that you don't wish you had
put them in there because you won't be able to
get them out again necessarily. depending on
what your settings are. You need to kind of be
savvy. Check out your settings. Are you happy
with your data when it's way off away from you?
All that. Yeah. I see I'm probably not that savvy
with that. I probably just talk to AI willy -nilly
and put all sorts of things in. I do often ask
it to tell me what it knows about me, and it
doesn't seem to know too much. Unless it's lying
and saying, I know more about you, Nathan. I've
been listening to a brilliant podcast recently.
recently and it's ancestors and algorithms and
that guy he um it's called brian and he's very
very knowledgeable he gives international advice
that's suitable for family historians everywhere
about how to use ai wisely and safely He's well
worth listening to. He gives you solid research
advice. And then there's lots and lots of, it's
mainly AI focus through the lens of AI. Like
how would AI help you in this predicament? How
would AI help you doing fan research, your friend's
associate neighbor's research? Or how would AI,
how could you use AI with the DNA? That sort
of thing. We do also, we work with another lovely
AI person. She's well worth keeping up with.
It's Carol McCulloch. And she... is really good
at just helping you learn all those nuts and
bolts. You don't just look at the tool and be
in a blur. You can use it in a really considered,
precise way. You know where your information's
going, what you're doing with it. It's education.
It's always education. We thought education was
just for school, but it's not. It's just life,
isn't it? It is, and then now I realise how much
I don't know. I think we all are feeling that.
Yeah. There's so much to learn, isn't there?
Well, there is. You terrify me. Your historical
knowledge is just amazing. I can talk about anything
and you'll know at least something about it.
I know you'll claim you don't, but you do. Whereas
anything that I know is based on pop culture
or a computer game. It's just silly. Whatever.
Well, do you know, Tuck, you're pop culture,
so I have just... I started learning how to do
shuffle dancing. I didn't even know what it was
a week ago. And then an Instagram thing popped
up and I was like, I want to learn that. And
so at my great age, and I am so bad at dancing,
I thought, I'm going to learn this. I'm just
going to learn it in my kitchen all by myself.
And that's old dancing from the 80s, isn't it?
I haven't a clue what any of that is. You're
probably now into more pop culture than I am.
Well, I think this is... For 1980s, isn't pop
culture for you, that's like... pop history for
you yeah but if it's on tiktok or whatever then
uh and all the kids are doing it you must be
i don't think the kids are i think it's all people
my age are doing it i learned how to floss when
flossing came about i could do that oh that's
good can you do any of that jiving or what are
the other things called all these lovely um mid
-20th century dancers so talented i have no coordination
at all i'm amazed i can run without falling over
to be honest I have no coordination too, but
that's the beauty of the internet. I mean, it
does tie into education because you can use the
internet to educate yourself in anything. And
I'll be lucky because even before AI, it gives
you the feeling you have such a patient tutor
because you can just watch so many videos on
the same topic till it's gone into your head.
Keep pressing, dragging the little... Play, button
back, re -watch, re -watch, re -watch. And eventually
it's gone in my head. It is crazy. It's like
a different world. I did a lot of art through
all of my education. And I remember doing, I
don't know whether it was GCSE or A -level. At
one point they gave me oil paints and they were
like, here's some oil paints, here's some brushes,
paint. And I was never taught the techniques.
It was just go and do it. And then since the
start of about January, I've started oil painting
again after a 20 -year gap, whatever. And suddenly
I can go to YouTube and watch tutorials about
how to oil paint. It's like, this is something
that I actually know how to do, yet I haven't
had lessons on it. And now I can learn techniques
and expand my knowledge. And it's just there,
isn't it? It's just really amazing. I think that's
definitely had an impact on the family history
world as well. We get lots of bad press being
modern family historians with art. error -strewn
trees but I think there's also such a lot of
really good quality detailed research happening
and people holding themselves to kind of high
standards. I think we did well. I'm clearly trying
to procrastinate and not talk about my family
history research this week but it's not gone
well. So what's happened then, Nathan? I decided
I was going to go back in time, as you have to
do, because that's what Family History is about.
And I thought I'll tackle the 1841. Don't get
too excited. So initially, I think I said to
you the other week, because I was doing this
weird side shoot, or as it is, the listeners
did it for me, the Alexander McKay thing. I was
like, right, I'll stick with the McKays. and
I'll go back to the generation of whoever's about
for the 1841. Instant stumbling block. They're
in Scotland, aren't they? So I was like, I don't
know what to do. And that's where I stopped with
them. You got to the point that you knew you
were going to have to look in the 1841 census
for Scotland, and then you got stuck. Yes, it's
not an ancestry, is it? Well, yes. Kind of, yes.
Bad man. Not bad. No, this is exciting on two
fronts. One, because we can have a quick 101
of how to find Scottish stuff on Ancestry generally.
And then also the difference between what Ancestry
has for Scottish censuses and what Scotland's
people have for Scottish censuses. So this is
really good advice for anybody, all of us, to
keep remembering all through our history journey,
family history journey, is if you're... embarking
on a new era or a new area in your family history,
then it's really worth going to Ancestry, going
to Search, going to the drop -down menu, going
to Card Catalogue and then putting in the word
Scotland for you, for instance, Nathan, and see
what they've got for Scotland. Yeah? Mm -hmm.
There'll be a great big long list of all the
record collections they have that pertain to
Scotland because they're looking quite often
for the... like the name of the title. You don't
want to put in the name of your town in Scotland
because it might not come up with anything unless
they happen to have, for instance, a local militia
list or something for your very small, niche
area. So just put in a broad brush and then you
can drill down from there. Record collections
which are going to be relevant to your ancestors.
So you can see if you do that, you'll find that
they have got Scottish. census records but records
is a bit of a big sketchy word and a record could
be all sorts of things and lots of people define
it all different ways so a record could be you're
sitting in the archive actually holding an original
document from way back when or a record could
be a digital surrogate so like a digital copy
of that census record that you're staring on
at your screen at home so you can see the beautiful
old handwriting or a record could be an index
record so it's just like a little stubby bit
with a few of the fields transcribed out couldn't
it record could be anything yeah so ancestry
what back to what they have for the scottish
censuses they have they have 1841 to 1921 But
they don't have the full images. They don't have
any images. What they have is a transcription.
But that can be really helpful because a transcription,
much as we might go, oh, what a dreadful transcription
error is crept in there when we're using commercial
transcriptions. When we are looking at new records
ourselves, there's every chance we're going to
make transcription errors. So it's not a bad
place to start. And it's also you're already
paying for Ancestry. So you can do a lot of research
without paying for any more money. Explore these
potential. Scottish census records, but no extra
money on ancestry. Note down the details. Then
go to Scotland's People. You have to buy your
separate credits on Scotland's People, and then
you can order down the beautiful census images
from Scotland's People. That's nice, isn't it?
It's all doable. Yeah, it's great. But... I'm
just terrified. I can't make the links. I feel
like there's some weird, like, hinterland gap.
where between the generation I've got and the
generation prior, and I can't connect the dots,
and I don't know whether it's just circumstantial,
like, can I remember anything? I think, right,
the potential parents of Alexander McKay, the,
I don't know, third, should we say, at this point,
James McKay's dad, Alexander McKay, his parents,
his dad was called Alexander. Right. And his
mum was potentially called Agnes. And Agnes potentially
died in 1842. At which point then, so the 1841
is the one before it, only she'll be fairly elderly
on that one. She won't be fairly elderly. She
was born in 1807. But anyway, Alexander McKay,
the one that I know about, has already moved
out. He's gone because he was born in 1830. So
I've got a list of children. I might be working
things out in my head here. I've got a list of
children that belong to this family, but Alexander's
not there with them. So I've just got no actual...
to make me know that these are the right people
I'm looking for because I don't have a document
where Alexander is with his mum and dad. At least,
that's just census -wise, I guess. I guess there
must be other documents I need to find. Can you
remind me, so with Alexander, do you have a firm
birthplace for him in Scotland? Which one? Yeah,
Paisley. He was born in Paisley. Yeah. So? I
think there's a few things you need to do. So
could I just recap to make sure I've got it correct?
You've got this Alexander, born in 1830 in Paisley,
but by the time you get to the 1841 census, is
that correct? He's not with his family? Yes.
He's a very young boy not to be with his family.
He's 11. Yeah? Maybe I'm lying to you. No, no.
I was just checking I understood right, that's
all. No, there's a good chance I'm wrong because
obviously... I'm just terrified of the 1841.
Oh, no, it's not on the 1841. The 1841 example
I've seen, not having Alexander on it. That's
OK. Join me. This is where I am. I might have
mentioned Marianne Pickering, mightn't I? Who?
I know. She just does that. She just goes AWOL
halfway through her childhood. Anyway, so you're
not alone in this. So there's a few things you
can do. I think the classic thing of... One thing,
check how many other Alexander McKays born in
Paisley there are, give or take a year for him,
so you know how many possible contenders there
are. The other thing is to research his wider
family. And by that, there's two particular things
I'd be interested to do. One is to continue to
search his siblings in subsequent census records,
because... the more i know about them and then
potentially even if i find their marriage records
and with scotland it's going to be more expensive
you're not just doing this as part of a subscription
you're going to be having to pay for records
but what that does is you'll be building up a
picture of all those children what their parents
um names are what the mothers this is brilliant
for scotland the mother's maiden names are recorded
um On the marriage records, you've got the father's
occupation. So you're getting that lovely, concrete,
consistent, hopefully consistent picture of the
details that the family, nearby family, the siblings
and the parents would have gone under. Yeah.
And then also look to see what other wider family.
So his parents, siblings, potentially he could
be living with an auntie and uncle at the census.
He could have been an apprentice. He's potentially
a little bit young to be an apprentice. I think
roughly, very roughly, 14 was a good age to become
an apprentice. But some people were apprenticed
younger. Yeah. I've just got so many blanks,
though. Like you say, research the siblings.
But I actually aren't at a point where I even
know he's got brothers and sisters because I
don't have a document with him with his brothers
and sisters. But being able to say that he's
not with his family on the 1841 census, then
you've got a family presumably who you think
is possibly his. That is true, yes. Yeah. So
you're right to keep cautious, but that's your
kind of probable starting point. Okay. It just
seems very hard. And I know I've been a bit lazy
about this and keep panicking about it. I'm just
struggling to make those connections. And then
the Scotland element of it throws me as well
because I can research, I can put Paisley in
the search and suddenly I'm getting names of
areas that I don't know if that's near Paisley.
I guess I need to go to a map. But the dots aren't
connecting as easily as I want them to. And taking
all the Scottish stuff out of it. I started on
the Scotland stuff. I got to the 1841. I had...
His wife is the Jeannie Jane, and we have mentioned
her before. Well, I found a record of her called
Johnson, and then I've also found a record of
her called Johnston. And I know it's only a minor
difference, but then I was like, oh, my God,
this on top of everything else is just too much.
So then I thought... Forget this, I'm going to
go to the other side of the tree, solid putsy
people, the Ward family, because I know the area,
it's nice and easy. I'll take them on an adventure
through the 1841. And I equally hit the same
stumbling block. I don't have a way to connect
my fourth time great grandparents, George and
Elizabeth, to the parents. I know he's... Dad
was called George because I think I must have
had a wedding certificate. But other than that,
I can't get them together because this guy was
born in 1812. And obviously by the 1841, he's
well away and married. And I think his wife,
well, I don't know. I think this one actually
might be the one where the wife died the year
after that census. So I've got nothing in between.
Tie them together. Am I being silly? It just
seems really hard. No, you're not being silly.
It does get a lot harder. So there's things you
can do is when you do have a big gap, you know,
several decades, then you're right to feel really...
You're worried if you're suddenly leapfrogging
back or forwards by several decades because there's
any number of variables that can happen in that
time and you've got very little. You're doing
a massive jump with just a few anchor points
to when you land to know do these go ping and
match. So you do need to get more information
and you need to get more information about all
the other people. For somebody who's born in
the early 1800s, there's every chance they're
going to be there for a few censuses. I would
hopefully make the 1851 census as well and make
sure I got the 1851 census for all of those people
before going back. Because sometimes you just
happen to get, you know, like the mother -in
-law living with the nuclear family or an uncle
or you get other family members which help you
give other clues about places where people might
be born. wider members of the family to help
give you more concrete clues about your family
network. So just I'm reassuring you what I already
said, but really trying to build out the details
of the people who are close by to your person
will really help you find your person. And equally
going forward, if you know that somebody's born,
if you've got a parish or village, you know,
relatively small area. and you've got their name
and you've got a rough year even if it's an inferred
year from a census of when they were born then
going back to those parish registers and don't
just look for them in the parish registers look
for all of those siblings because you're going
to find other babies born to the same parents
by the same name if you end up with too many
babies you could be looking at two couples with
the same names in the same parish but So you
kind of have to keep your eye out for that. But
gradually just try and learn about the other
people because it's not a waste of time. That's
how you're going to know. You know, if I Googled
Nathan Ward without knowing anything about you,
I wouldn't know I had to write Nathan Ward. Whereas
if I knew one who was obsessed with Pudsey and
running and family history, I'd be like, OK,
I've got the guy. This is him. It'd be enough
to feel really confident, wouldn't I? Just a
few little facts, three or four words about you
and suddenly my confidence is really high. I
think this is my big issue. I keep on prattling
on about it every single week, how I like to
have three points that I can apply together before
I feel happy to be on my tree. And I'm not getting
the three facts. I'm getting one or two that
I could quite easily dismiss if I'm not careful.
And I literally haven't tied any new documents
to my tree because as much as they seem... Right,
I'm too scared to actually press yes because
this could end up just being a tangent where
it isn't actually anything at all to do with
my George Ward, for example. Yes. I don't. What
I think you should do then, so I would go probably
to Excel and all the details I'm finding, I would
record what you found, everything, loads of columns
like the names, dates, places, what you found,
why you think it's interesting and a potential
lead. and what your points of concern are. You
can call the columns what you want, but that
sort of idea, so you've got all your thinking
and all the facts. And keep gathering this information
because those sort of clues, when you're looking
for people, even if you subsequently find him
in the 1841 census, when you're going back at
another point, you'll be trying to find something
else in that community. The more you're gradually
building a... pieces of information that are
going to come in handy again in the future even
if it's just for ruling things in and out you'll
be able to say actually that wasn't that George
Ward nothing to do with me because that's my
great great great great auntie Sophie's son or
something yeah don't get confused with him so
it's not a waste of time writing a record like
that yeah and also if I if I am in a problem
and I'm not writing it down I find it really
hard to coherently think of a way out of it even
just the process of starting to write down this
is what I've found and this is why I'm really
nervous about it and this is why I'm confused
about it and then your brain wants to help you
it wants to find solutions it doesn't just go
oh well then let's just be confused forever it
starts to try and think of solutions and it stops
you just going round and round in circles in
a panic it makes you start to take order of those
thoughts yeah I think I just need to find, like,
one positive inroad on the 1841 that makes me
feel comfortable and confident, and then I can
work around that. And then hopefully apply it
to other strands. Nathan, could you share your
screen and let's have a look at it? Who says
I'm looking at my tree on my screen? I could
tell you are, because your eyes just keep glancing
away the whole time. Yeah, OK. What do you want
to look at? Do you want to look at George or
do you want to look at the McKays? Either. Let's
look at George, because I think the Scottish
thing is making you even more nervous. And because
it's going to involve spending money, you may
as well make mistakes and learn free rather than
learn crashing through loads of credits. Yeah.
OK, cool. Not free, but, you know, within your
ancestry. Right. Yeah. So I've got I think my
issue here as well is I've probably not fleshed
out my fourth time great grandparents very well
either. This is also confusing me. This is the
first time I've been into Ancestry for a week,
whatever. And there's this new bit, add DNA matches
descending from George. It's locked, clearly
I have to pay for it. And then also, found in
10 plus Ancestry trees, compare trees. It's making
me want to get lazy and be like, yeah, I trust
this information, but I'm not going to because
that's not how I operate. But it's there, it's
teasing me. Yes, it's annoying, isn't it? So
I've got these dudes in the 1851. So this is
George Ward and his wife, Elizabeth, who are
my fourth time to great -grandparents. Yeah.
So I have them in 1851. So that's nice and easy,
though, because he's got a baby Ruth who's going
to be one unless she's died. Oh, wow. Got dark
fast. Baby Ruth. Right, OK. See, instantly I
didn't even think of that. I'm lazy. For now,
this is fine. So what you can do, you can go,
when was the other baby born? So you've got baby
Ruth born 1840. So you've only got baby Ruth
to go on. So let's look for baby Ruth born in
Pudsey. And because when you do this, yeah, you
can just click on her and search through that
way. So go to your middle bit where you've got
the picture of the 1851 England census. You search
on ancestry. I've never done this. Oh, that's
good. I like this. Yes, it's good, isn't it?
I've never done this this way before. This is
cool. Then you're seeing all potential things.
Am I filtering by census? You could filter by
census, yes. I want you to control the search,
otherwise you don't have a clue what you've done.
I mean, the top one in my hints there, look,
she got married in Carver Church. It's looking
good, isn't it? And it says she was born in 1838.
If this is looking perfect, Ruth Ward, 1841 census,
born 1839, Puddy Calvary, let's have a peep.
If her dad is George and her mum's Elizabeth,
we're laughing, aren't we? Oh, but we're not
laughing. It's James and Louisa. So we're not
laughing. So straight away we know we've got
another contender. Oh, my gosh. George and Elizabeth.
Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? It's very
interesting. The parish is exactly the same,
Carver puts it. And that's why you always need
to know whether there's another contender who
you could possibly get in a muddle with. Have
I ever mentioned that before, Nathan? Never,
never. Well, I should have done, shouldn't I?
You mention it all the time, but I'm lazy and
I don't want to research people that aren't on
my tree. Very excitingly, we found Nathan's multiple
times great -auntie Ruth as a little baby. She's
actually down to two and she's got a three -week
-old brother on there, NK Ward. Yeah. Three months
old. So he can be added to your tree. So because
it's the 1841 census, you know, when you're looking
at later census, you can just go add and then
you can gradually add all of the people because
they're not marked down as their relationship
to each other isn't marked in the 1841 census.
You're going to have to add it a bit more faffy.
Yeah, I think, again, that's another reason I
get scared of this one because it will only let
me do one at a time. Yeah. Oh, and he's a shopkeeper.
That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Because then
potentially, I think N .K. Ward, I think that's
not known Ward. I think they might not have given
him a name yet. When I saw the transcription,
I was just like, N .K. Ward, wouldn't it be beautiful
if he was called Nathan? But then I'm now seeing
it in context. I think it is a not known. But
who knows? Let's find out what he was actually
called. So when you go, you've already got the
1851 census for that family. So hopefully you
can find him. as a little 10 -year -old on your
1851 census you've got for them and he's called
Nathan. Let's have a quick peep at that. We'll
save it down. Save him to George or Ruth or whoever
you're going to save it to. Save this record
to Ruth Ann Ward. Fantastic. It's looking at
all of the family members together. None of us.
You're not being stupid. This is the takeaway
from today's session. None of us. could confidently
say we have the right person when we're looking
at an ancestor all by themselves or a person.
They have the names. Even if they have a place
correct and an occupation correct, when you don't
have those family network to join them in, it
gets harder and harder to feel confident you've
got the right person. It's not saying you can't
do it, but you need more and more evidence to
shore it up to make sure you're correct. When
you have that matrix of family members, it's
relatively easy to quickly feel confident, but
you do have to watch out for namesakes, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think, to be honest,
it's not laziness. It's time management on my
part here. I think it's confidence, Nathan. But
it's like fitting my time in to come and do my
family tree. I like to press the buttons and
see the links and be like, yes, confident, boom,
boom, boom. But now I'm like, right, I've just
put Ruth in. And in my head, I'm like panicking
already. Like, oh, my God, I've got to go back
and make sure I get all them individually. This
is the 1850 one I've moved on to now. George
Ward, head of the house, is now a cloth manufacturer.
His wife is now the shopkeeper. Interesting.
I wonder if they've got a shop. We've got Elizabeth,
we've got Samuel, we've got Ruth, and N .K. is
now known as William. Yes, and he's William Oliver,
so that definitely was a not -known, so that's
fun to know that he was not -known. Bless him.
It's hard choosing a name for a baby. Three months,
though. Three weeks. Three weeks. Three weeks.
And they've got six weeks to register his birth.
So they've got another three weeks to work out
what they're going to register him as. And he's
by the age, 10 years later, he's down as William
Oliver though. Yeah. And we've actually got two
older siblings, which I don't remember. Were
they there? We were so busy looking for Ruth
on the 1841. Those two older siblings should
be there as well. There's a second Elizabeth
and a Samuel. Okay, brilliant. That does all
match up. Oh, wow, my first little foray into
1851. And you've got more beautiful siblings,
which you're going to be very careful to add
to your tree, because when you at some point
want to start building your out -and -down tree,
just for your DNA, you've got a whole batch of
siblings. You've got one, two, three, eight siblings,
or seven siblings and your mainline ancestor.
Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. That's cool. That was
a good way to get into the 1841. Yeah, so now
let's have a look and see if we can do it on
another branch. Okay. Or we can just feel happy
and stop there. What should we do? Let's feel
happy and stop there because I think I don't
want to be disappointed. That's a win. Yes, you've
got quite a lot of stuff there you need to go
and add to your tree. That 1851, all that data
you can add easily. 1840 was happy and slow.
I've already added the 1851. Well done. So that's
that. I'd already done that previously, but at
least I do have that data to compare with the
1841. I'm going to be really rude, Nathan. I
don't think you have added all of that stuff.
Why? Because I'm looking at your tree and I'm
looking at the vertical way and I'm not seeing
all those siblings added. Wait, where's Ruth?
Oh, beg your pardon. She's there. She's been,
yeah. Okay, you have been good. I've been all
wrong. But Benjamin Ward is the direct descendant
for me, so Ruth's... Like an auntie, great -auntie,
whatever. So yeah, I've got them all added. I
just don't have them in the 1841. That's OK.
That's really good. That's my easy homework now.
I can just repeatedly go into 1841. I think the
thing for me, and it's that meticulous terror,
is I don't want to have done what I've just done
and not add the others. And because you've got
to do it one by one, I need to just keep my eye
on that. Yeah. Even though this is for, it's
only three people, isn't it? And then the parents.
Yeah. That's a good start then, isn't it? It's
really good. And so I wouldn't worry about Scotland
for the moment. I think work through your other
branches in England and then you can keep learning
without spending any extra money. Get really
confident about how you piece together the sort
of clues you get given in the 1841. If you stumble
on another branch, which seems particularly difficult.
Spend time thinking about it, but don't get bogged
down and demoralised. Move on to the next branch,
because sometimes, as we all know, some branches
are easier to piece together than others. Some
branches are easier to get confused on than others.
So keep working across your tree, and then you
could go back to the ones you found hard in the
first place, and you'll have learnt stuff in
the meantime. Stop and do reconnaissance when
you get to the record. Just have a proper look
so that you don't make a wrong judgement, and
equally so that you can gain confidence when
the record is... looking correct so give me a
hint then so obviously I found George Ward and
Elizabeth on the 1841 but my I think my stumbling
block is actually not necessarily them and their
kids it's his dad I found the marriage of George
and Elizabeth but on that marriage certificate
it's an older one and it doesn't have father's
names and occupations on it like the other ones
do. And I think that's where I found my fear.
I'm stuck in between those two. So when I find
myself in this position, I find I actually end
up doing multiple searches. I'll be searching
for one person, but I might be... going around
different record sets, gradually building a picture
of what's possible. So you've got your George
Ward there who's born in 1812 and you've got
him on the 1841 census with his wife and children.
Great. But what you're looking at now is you're
trying to find his dad. So his dad is very approximately
going to be 25, 30 years older than him. So his
dad's going to be very roughly born in, let's
say, let's say in the 1880s. Yeah, very roughly.
1780s. 1780s, beg your pardon. So his dad's born
in the 1780s. So by the time we get to 1841,
his dad's going to be 60 -something. So his dad
may well not be alive. His dad may not have made
it to the 1841 census. You're looking for somebody
in England. So his dad may have died in the window
between 1837, at the start of the civil, national,
big comprehensive databases of death records.
So his dad may have died between 1837 and 1841.
potentially have a look your family's so nice
and static you could have a look for all the
george wards who died within that window within
your fairly specific geographic area and see
okay oh there's five of them i could get in a
muddle with or whatever there are make a note
of them yeah you can even just copy down the
details then simultaneously have a look in the
1841 census ago okay how many george wards roughly
aged 60 can i find in the 1841 census and also
bearing in mind 1841 they round down everyone
over the age of 15 the ages get rounded down
to the nearest zero or five so if you're 67 you're
recorded 65 so keep that in mind okay it means
you have to be a bit more even more a bit more
flexible in the age you don't know his age yet
then the third thing i'd do is i'll be looking
in the parish registers i think you might have
said you might have his marriage if you have
his marriage great Otherwise, if you don't have
his marriage, have a look for his marriage. If
you know George Ward's born in 1812, if that's
from a baptism record, hopefully you might be
having some details about the George Ward's born
roughly 1780s wife. Yeah, the George Ward's born
roughly 1812's mother. So you're going to be
looking at that. And then as well as looking
for her marriage records, you're also going to
be looking... In the parish, because you're so
fortunate to have this very locally based family,
you're going to be seeing how many George Wards
are there. I'm born very roughly in this period,
in the 1780s. I'd probably make it even broader.
I'd probably go 1775 to 1719. And you might be
unlucky that he's outside that period, but that
would even give you a handle. You think, okay,
Ward is a really common name in this parish,
or actually there's only a couple of nuclear
families having their children. You're going
to get a sense for how many there are. And I
would keep going round, gradually building up
knowledge and confidence about the potential
people there. Yeah, and that's how I do it. I'm
not saying it's right, but that's the only way
I can do it. You can't keep wagging your head
against the wall with one record collection,
in my experience, and hope to make progress in
one go. Some people probably can, but I can't.
I have to do this round -the -houses situation.
No, I mean, that sounds like what I'm trying
to do, and obviously I can't do that. Clearly,
I need to be a bit more involved in the people,
and that will hopefully help me. And that's what
you've been wanting for weeks, so here we go.
Yeah. It's just tricky, isn't it? But I'll book
my ideas up and I'll get back to you on this
and see what we can do. Yes. So that is our homework
for this week. You're going to be more involved
in one person and I'm going to try to be not
involved in lots of people in those photo albums.
And we will report back in a week. We will. OK,
so thanks for listening then, everybody. And
we'll see you next time. Bye bye.