WEBVTT 00:00:05.770 --> 00:00:08.390 Hello everybody and welcome to Family Tree Talk, 00:00:08.570 --> 00:00:10.910 your favourite Family Tree podcast. I'm your 00:00:10.910 --> 00:00:13.830 co -host Nathan Ward and with me as always is... 00:00:13.830 --> 00:00:17.449 Helen Tovey. Hi Helen, you alright? I'm very, 00:00:17.489 --> 00:00:20.170 very well, yes. How are you? I'm not too bad, 00:00:20.250 --> 00:00:22.170 thank you. I'm very warm. We've had a warm one, 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:25.710 haven't we, recently? We have. Makes it hard 00:00:25.710 --> 00:00:29.070 to concentrate on anything. Yes. At least you're 00:00:29.070 --> 00:00:32.340 not working in the hot sun. Big agricultural 00:00:32.340 --> 00:00:37.719 labourer in Victorian times. That's true. But 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:39.500 maybe you'd be just out in the sun drinking beer. 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:41.939 It'll all be all right. I mean, to be honest, 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:44.039 I've quite... Would I like to be outside? I'm 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:46.520 not sure I would. I do like warmth, but I'm not 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:49.359 sure I like it continuously. I went for a run 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.439 at half past six this morning to avoid the heat 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:54.259 and it was still 20 degrees. What's up with that? 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:59.100 Did not like it. Anyway, how's your family history 00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:03.630 going? going well on lots of fronts, actually. 00:01:03.929 --> 00:01:07.650 Oh, intriguing. Yes. So I said recently that 00:01:07.650 --> 00:01:10.450 I was going to revive my plan to try and get 00:01:10.450 --> 00:01:13.290 AI to help me transcribe one of my grandfather's 00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:15.849 RAF love books from the Second World War. That 00:01:15.849 --> 00:01:18.870 is definitely all going well. Cool. So you've 00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:21.989 managed to befriend AI properly? Not really. 00:01:22.230 --> 00:01:25.859 I've made... I've made a friend. You kind of 00:01:25.859 --> 00:01:28.319 make a friend and then you know when that friend's 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:30.000 quite a new friend and then they let you down 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.719 a few times and you're like, okay, well, I can 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:34.200 see the sort of relationship we're going to have. 00:01:34.819 --> 00:01:36.599 You're a friend, but you're not getting into 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.439 the best friend camp. Yeah. I might or might 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.719 not invite you to my birthday party. We'll see 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:49.579 how you're behaving. Oh, poor AI. So that's where 00:01:49.579 --> 00:01:51.780 we are with AI. So I'm now going to actually 00:01:51.780 --> 00:01:54.329 put it to a test. So I've been doing that and 00:01:54.329 --> 00:01:56.409 I've been, I come back to that, you want me to 00:01:56.409 --> 00:01:59.430 or not, and I've been seeing my family recently, 00:01:59.489 --> 00:02:02.609 which is fantastic. So that's just always fun 00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:05.829 for family history. And I've been chatting to 00:02:05.829 --> 00:02:07.909 one of my uncles who loves old family photos. 00:02:08.129 --> 00:02:10.870 He always says, that's it, that's all of it. 00:02:10.889 --> 00:02:12.530 I found all the photos now. These are all the 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:14.849 old photos. I haven't got any more left. And 00:02:14.849 --> 00:02:16.370 then when I saw him recently, he had another 00:02:16.370 --> 00:02:20.460 big, wonderful box. the size of two lever arch 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:22.240 files. Imagine if you put them next to each other. 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:24.539 Apparently it's an old dress box. But when my 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:26.800 great -granny used to go and buy dresses, then 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:29.460 the dress would come in a box. Like, never mind, 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.240 do you want a bag with that? They'd have an actual 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.840 fancy box with tissue paper and everything. Anyway, 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:37.939 this box is very broken now, but it's full of 00:02:37.939 --> 00:02:40.379 beautiful old photos. So that was really fun 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:43.960 talking to my uncle and handling these old photos. 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:45.599 And he's going to scan in loads and send me loads 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.919 of scans. And what else happened? Oh, yes. My 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:50.780 aunt was going to, I saw her recently at our 00:02:50.780 --> 00:02:52.780 family gathering. Me and my daughter were very 00:02:52.780 --> 00:02:54.139 excited because she was going to teach us some 00:02:54.139 --> 00:02:55.860 of the special recipes she knows because she's 00:02:55.860 --> 00:02:58.539 a very good cook. The only recipe she taught 00:02:58.539 --> 00:03:00.840 us was for a margarita, but we're not complaining. 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:03.960 Yeah. That sounds like the perfect family recipe. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.020 Yeah, so I've got a video of her making her margarita 00:03:07.020 --> 00:03:09.560 now to go into the family files. It all counts, 00:03:09.699 --> 00:03:12.699 doesn't it? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yes, so I've 00:03:12.699 --> 00:03:14.680 had family history on all sorts of fronts, in 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:16.740 all sorts of different guises, and it's all fun. 00:03:17.310 --> 00:03:20.490 Oh, I took a really fun family photo. We made 00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:23.050 a little family tree photo. So we're sitting 00:03:23.050 --> 00:03:25.370 on a bench. My mum's sitting on the bench. Then 00:03:25.370 --> 00:03:27.990 I sat on her lap because I'm her baby. And then 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:30.169 my two daughters sat on my lap because they're 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:32.090 my babies. And then one of my daughters is a 00:03:32.090 --> 00:03:34.569 little baby girl and she sat on the top like 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:36.629 a little cherry on the cake. She's that baby. 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:40.830 Your mum's now squashed. My mum's slightly squashed 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:44.789 on one side. That sounds really cute. Yeah, it's 00:03:44.789 --> 00:03:47.969 really cute. It's a funny day. How about you? 00:03:50.349 --> 00:03:53.669 It's not gone well. I'm blaming the heat. Yes. 00:03:54.629 --> 00:03:58.110 Oh, wow. Where do I begin? So last time I left 00:03:58.110 --> 00:04:01.789 you all with a little mystery of my Alexander 00:04:01.789 --> 00:04:06.550 McKay. And he was married to someone called Jesse 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:09.569 Robinson. Yet my mum thought he was married to 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:12.550 someone called Dorothy. Well, Dolly, who could 00:04:12.550 --> 00:04:15.949 be a Dorothy. And I couldn't find details for 00:04:15.949 --> 00:04:18.949 their marriage. There's also rumours of a child 00:04:18.949 --> 00:04:22.410 born with Jesse. I couldn't find any details 00:04:22.410 --> 00:04:24.930 of that. So I've been off on a mission trying 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:30.430 to find anything I can. And honestly, I don't 00:04:30.430 --> 00:04:32.089 know whether my skill sets have just sort of 00:04:32.089 --> 00:04:35.670 just gone or whether it is actually hard to find 00:04:35.670 --> 00:04:39.089 or even if anything exists. I'm so confused right 00:04:39.089 --> 00:04:42.230 now. The only other reference I have managed 00:04:42.230 --> 00:04:44.930 to find for any of these three people, Alexander, 00:04:45.209 --> 00:04:51.009 Jesse or Dolly slash Dorothy, is the 1939 register. 00:04:51.410 --> 00:04:57.589 And on the 1939 register, I have Alexander living 00:04:57.589 --> 00:05:03.629 with Dorothy L. McKay, which suggests a marriage 00:05:03.629 --> 00:05:07.790 has taken place. So that happened in 1939. And 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:15.310 I have... Alexander marrying Jessie in 1928 at 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:18.290 the age of 24. So from that, I could obviously 00:05:18.290 --> 00:05:22.670 roughly work out she was born in 1904 or 1903, 00:05:22.850 --> 00:05:27.269 depending on when she was actually born. That's 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:29.829 literally it. I cannot find any references to 00:05:29.829 --> 00:05:33.389 anyone. I then went on a search trying to find 00:05:33.389 --> 00:05:37.120 Jessie as a Robinson and Jessie as a McKay. And 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.660 I've found a few examples of people that could 00:05:40.660 --> 00:05:45.220 be her, but I have no real connections. And some 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:48.899 of them have her dying in like 1975, which could 00:05:48.899 --> 00:05:53.040 be true. Maybe even later as well. I feel a bit 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.899 weird about this because I don't know if she 00:05:55.899 --> 00:06:00.699 died or if they divorced or anything. So I don't 00:06:00.699 --> 00:06:04.339 really know what record I'm looking for. I have... 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.800 been handed down verbal information that Alexander 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.480 had a child, but there's no records of it and 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:13.220 I don't know any details of it and it was never 00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:16.339 talked about apparently. So there's just lots 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:21.759 of grey areas. My current thought is that maybe 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.300 they didn't get divorced, maybe she didn't die 00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:31.240 and maybe he pretend married his wife for keeping 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.910 up appearances, Dorothy. because I literally 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:37.329 just can't find anything about them. So that's 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:42.750 where I'm at. The 1939 has Dorothy as a McKay, 00:06:42.829 --> 00:06:46.949 but then somebody's crossed it out, and in uppercase 00:06:46.949 --> 00:06:51.709 it says M -E -E on it, which I don't know what 00:06:51.709 --> 00:06:54.649 means. And then there's some green text next 00:06:54.649 --> 00:06:56.629 to it with lots of reference numbers, so I don't 00:06:56.629 --> 00:06:58.129 really know what that means. Maybe you should 00:06:58.129 --> 00:07:02.879 look at that for me and see where it is. So what 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.420 do you want me to say? I don't know. You've probably 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:07.180 already come up with a weird and wonderful story. 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:10.500 No, I haven't. No, not at all. So it does sound, 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:12.660 it's very disconcerting when you're on kind of 00:07:12.660 --> 00:07:14.800 territory like that. But if you looked in the 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:17.180 places you'd expect, so the places you'd expect 00:07:17.180 --> 00:07:19.259 just a quick one -on -one. If somebody's newer 00:07:19.259 --> 00:07:20.819 to family history, looking for birth, marriage 00:07:20.819 --> 00:07:22.620 and deaths, it would be free. BMD would be a 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.300 good place. Or the GRO. And these are for England 00:07:25.300 --> 00:07:29.680 and Wales, those two websites. So... But your 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.579 family does seem to be very much based in the 00:07:32.579 --> 00:07:35.079 local area in Yorkshire. I remember from a previous 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:37.660 episode, you said there were some connections 00:07:37.660 --> 00:07:41.379 down to the south of England. Was it Sussex or 00:07:41.379 --> 00:07:46.300 Surrey? Yes. And on the 1939, the residency is 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:52.139 Wandsworth in London. Okay, yeah. But the marriage 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:55.800 certificate for when he married Jessie, the place 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:57.939 of living for both of them was in Idle, which 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:00.980 is in Bradford. So they were up here, but he 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:02.860 was the one who got sent to boarding school down 00:08:02.860 --> 00:08:06.720 south. Yeah. We did wonder before whether they 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:10.899 just came back up here to get married, but it 00:08:10.899 --> 00:08:16.980 does seem like his wife was from up here. I literally 00:08:16.980 --> 00:08:19.819 am so confused that I don't know where to go. 00:08:20.980 --> 00:08:23.740 To that bit, that bit could be okay. So let's 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:27.199 see, his family come from Idle or that area of 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:30.000 Yorkshire. He's sent down to boarding school 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.360 in the south because his dad passes away and 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.220 we're thinking maybe he gets some sort of bursary, 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:39.440 some sort of orphan or fatherless child funding 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.460 or family member steps in. Somebody steps in 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:43.059 to pay for that boarding school education for 00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:46.220 him to help him with his life now that he doesn't 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:49.379 have a dad to help care for him. And then after 00:08:49.379 --> 00:08:53.000 that, he could return to kind of his home, his 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:55.159 place in his home county. That would make sense, 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:57.419 wouldn't it? To go back to his roots. He's living 00:08:57.419 --> 00:08:59.860 there. He's a young man. Marries Jessie. And 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:01.879 then life goes on. And I think that's quite normal, 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:03.980 isn't it? When people get married and quite often 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:05.399 when they have their first child, they might 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:09.659 go back to the, particularly in times past, they'd 00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:12.059 go back to the place where the bride's mum, maybe 00:09:12.059 --> 00:09:14.059 to have the first baby, just so the bride's mum, 00:09:14.179 --> 00:09:17.279 the pregnant person's mother, can help look after 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:18.899 them. So you're kind of going back to the roots 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:20.879 at that stage, but then the subsequent later 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.610 marriage. marrying in london when you're kind 00:09:23.610 --> 00:09:25.509 of an established adult you can imagine you um 00:09:25.509 --> 00:09:27.309 it's not going to be the big white wedding deal 00:09:27.309 --> 00:09:30.049 it's going to be much more potentially you know 00:09:30.049 --> 00:09:32.570 more of a personal um thing rather than a family 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:34.789 thing very often that happens with second marriages 00:09:34.789 --> 00:09:37.289 doesn't it and subsequent marriages so those 00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:39.629 places are all okay they're not like alarm bell 00:09:39.629 --> 00:09:42.769 places but they're equally they're not so firm 00:09:42.769 --> 00:09:45.129 and they're not following a nice sequence that 00:09:45.129 --> 00:09:46.629 you can feel really confident with that information 00:09:46.629 --> 00:09:49.929 you've got and then with the fact that somebody 00:09:49.929 --> 00:09:54.610 is finding jesse dying decades after her husband 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:57.610 remarries then that is an alarm bell situation 00:09:57.610 --> 00:09:59.789 because it could be that person's completely 00:09:59.789 --> 00:10:02.789 wrong or it could be that her husband married 00:10:02.789 --> 00:10:05.470 bigamously or it could be that just Jesse and 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:09.190 Alexander separated and he got together with 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:11.629 Dorothy they portrayed themselves as married 00:10:11.629 --> 00:10:13.470 but they didn't actually marry and if they just 00:10:13.470 --> 00:10:15.750 portrayed themselves as married but didn't actually 00:10:15.750 --> 00:10:17.409 marry they're not committing bigamy are they 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:19.850 they're just living together but because of the 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:22.419 kind of social values at the time. They're just 00:10:22.419 --> 00:10:24.340 pretending to be married so that they don't feel 00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:29.919 judged. So that could, you may not find a marriage, 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:31.259 even though they're pretending to be married, 00:10:31.299 --> 00:10:33.220 which you know that already. And when you mentioned 00:10:33.220 --> 00:10:36.120 on the 1939 register, that was really interesting. 00:10:36.179 --> 00:10:38.259 You said there was another surname or M -E -E 00:10:38.259 --> 00:10:41.820 written and her surname McKay had been crossed 00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:44.960 out. So that could be that Dorothy marries subsequently 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:49.620 after she's with Alexander McKay. because the 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:52.379 1939 register was like a living record. Quick 00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:55.620 101. We do this because we've heard from podcast 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:57.120 listeners that we've got podcast listeners of 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:01.639 different levels. So the 1939 register was gathered 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.200 for all people in England, Wales, Scotland and 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.139 Northern Ireland in the early weeks of the Second 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:09.639 World War to find out information about them 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.019 for ration cards, for identity cards and potentially 00:11:12.019 --> 00:11:15.279 for conscription and potentially what roles people 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.039 could undertake on the home front to help protect 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.759 the country. And the records are available readily 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.580 for people in England and Wales online. So Nathan's 00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:25.000 now sharing his screen with me, which is great. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.139 He showed me a little bit of the 1939 register, 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:30.279 which you can view on websites like Ancestry 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:35.159 and Find My Past. And it's got the original page, 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.940 which has been filled in in blue biro. And then 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:43.100 on Dorothy McKay's entry, then it's got McKay 00:11:43.100 --> 00:11:44.480 has been crossed out. And as he says, it's got 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.629 me written in. Green Capital, so M -E -E. So 00:11:47.629 --> 00:11:51.789 to me, that looks as though she's married subsequently. 00:11:51.870 --> 00:11:54.190 After being M -O -K, she's subsequently married 00:11:54.190 --> 00:11:57.210 because this 1939 register carried on being a 00:11:57.210 --> 00:12:01.409 record which was used when the NHS got established 00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:05.330 in the late 1940s. This record was a living record, 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.210 so it carried on being amended and updated all 00:12:08.210 --> 00:12:10.809 through until the 1990s, which is extraordinary, 00:12:11.029 --> 00:12:13.889 isn't it, Nathan? That is crazy. If you weren't 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:16.210 on there in the first place in 1939, you're not 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:18.490 going to be on this iteration of the 1939 register, 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:21.190 obviously. But for the people who were, it was 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:25.950 used to help be a database for them, in effect. 00:12:26.169 --> 00:12:28.090 So you've got Dorothy's birthday as well, which 00:12:28.090 --> 00:12:30.970 was really helpful in her year of birth, because 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:34.190 then that's just great for trying to trace Dorothy 00:12:34.190 --> 00:12:37.110 forward and backwards, isn't it? Yeah. So what 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:38.570 are you suggesting? That she married somebody 00:12:38.570 --> 00:12:43.279 else later on called me? Yes. And the reason 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.200 why I think it's worth trying to track down her 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:47.019 birth. So you've got her first name, Dorothy. 00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:50.580 You've got her middle initial, L. And you've 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:52.720 got, because the 1939 register is brilliant, 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:56.159 it gives people's precise birthday. So this Dorothy 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:02.240 was born the 26th of May? Well, above it in pencil, 00:13:02.379 --> 00:13:06.299 it says 26th of May, 1900. But then above it 00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:09.570 in pencil, it says 26th of June, 1900. Yes, it 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:12.230 does, doesn't it? So I would check out all of 00:13:12.230 --> 00:13:14.909 those dates, but potentially they're going to 00:13:14.909 --> 00:13:17.309 be in the same quarter on the free BMD index 00:13:17.309 --> 00:13:22.169 anyway, aren't they? Yeah? Mm -hmm. But it's 00:13:22.169 --> 00:13:26.470 still a really helpful pointer because then you 00:13:26.470 --> 00:13:31.610 can hopefully try and track down maybe what Dorothy's 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:34.169 previous surname was because you've got her there 00:13:34.169 --> 00:13:36.549 only with her married name, whether it's a McKay, 00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:38.750 whether that's a... actual married name or whether 00:13:38.750 --> 00:13:41.190 just a purported married name you haven't actually 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:43.009 got her birth surname yet so that's what you're 00:13:43.009 --> 00:13:45.549 on the hunt for if you want it could be feel 00:13:45.549 --> 00:13:46.789 that you're getting further and further from 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:48.350 your core event because you'd be looking for 00:13:48.350 --> 00:13:50.769 Dorothy's subsequent marriage so you need to 00:13:50.769 --> 00:13:54.049 know you can obviously search for Dorothy McKay 00:13:54.049 --> 00:13:57.610 marrying a Mr Me but if she was pretending to 00:13:57.610 --> 00:13:59.730 be Dorothy McKay she was actually Dorothy her 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:01.809 maiden name you need to be searching for Dorothy 00:14:01.809 --> 00:14:04.269 her maiden name yeah oh but you could feel this 00:14:04.269 --> 00:14:05.710 is too much of a side shoot and you're not going 00:14:05.710 --> 00:14:09.039 to go there I mean, it is a side shoot, but I 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.600 think I do want to go there. I quite like this 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.220 little mystery. Like I said before, I've been 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:17.580 stuck in numbers and dates for a while now, so 00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:19.899 this is quite cool. It's frustrating, but it's 00:14:19.899 --> 00:14:22.059 quite cool. And to be fair to Nathan, this is 00:14:22.059 --> 00:14:24.740 really interesting. So he's only showing me, 00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:26.600 what is it, one, two, three, four, five, six, 00:14:26.659 --> 00:14:29.580 ten lines of the 1939 Manchester, so the entries 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:33.440 for ten people. And out of those ten people... 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:35.879 Nine of them are listed. They've got the details 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:40.000 nice and clearly corrected. No one's had any 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.340 amendments made to them. Everybody's managed 00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:44.320 to remember their own birthday correctly and 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.960 get it recorded correctly. Everything's going 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.279 well. And when you come to Dorothy, this is when 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.899 Nathan's getting stuck. But the married name 00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:53.860 isn't a particular problem because that does 00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:57.039 happen all the way through. If people marry, 00:14:57.259 --> 00:14:58.480 then you're going to find them with their married 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.100 surname subsequently amended. That's not a problem. 00:15:02.190 --> 00:15:04.210 Dorothy's the only person here who's managed 00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.669 to get her birthday recorded wrong or potentially 00:15:07.669 --> 00:15:10.309 wrong. Because the first entry for her birthday 00:15:10.309 --> 00:15:11.970 isn't even crossed out. It's just got a second 00:15:11.970 --> 00:15:14.350 version of her birthday. So it'll either be the 00:15:14.350 --> 00:15:18.250 26th of August, maybe. I think that says May. 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:22.549 Oh, it could be. Yeah, I don't know. So I think 00:15:22.549 --> 00:15:26.389 it could be August. Anyway, either which way, 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:28.990 the point is she's got another pencil date to 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:32.450 be added on. 26th of June. And she's the only 00:15:32.450 --> 00:15:34.970 person who over on the far left -hand side has 00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:36.629 got this massive long code number, which I have 00:15:36.629 --> 00:15:39.210 no idea what it is. Lots of clever people will 00:15:39.210 --> 00:15:41.169 know what it means, but I don't. So it reads 00:15:41.169 --> 00:15:47.769 out as OR283BRA18483. So Nathan, I think we need 00:15:47.769 --> 00:15:49.070 to find out what the heck that is. And it could 00:15:49.070 --> 00:15:51.370 be some statistical thing, but it could say, 00:15:51.509 --> 00:15:54.149 give us clues about what the heck's happening 00:15:54.149 --> 00:15:56.409 with the details recorded for Dorothy. Well, 00:15:56.490 --> 00:15:58.710 I'm going to guess that the BRA stands for Bradford. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.019 Okay, clever, yeah. And I've previously had one 00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:04.899 of these where somebody's remarried and they 00:16:04.899 --> 00:16:07.279 actually had the wedding reference number, you 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.039 know, the volume. Oh, yeah, yeah. Age. I've never 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:13.200 noticed that. Okay. But they're quite high numbers, 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:17.100 aren't they? Oh. So it could be that. I'll have 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.399 to do some searching. But that's fantastic, though, 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.740 because what this means is when you go to Freebie 00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:23.970 of Deed... Your Bradford clue is brilliant because 00:16:23.970 --> 00:16:25.629 rather than just searching the whole of England 00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:28.730 and Wales for Dorothy Earle, born in 19... and 00:16:28.730 --> 00:16:32.750 marrying a Mr. Me, you've now got the Bradford 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:36.570 clue. Clever, Sherlock. Well, I mean, it might 00:16:36.570 --> 00:16:38.110 be totally wrong, but... No, I think it sounds 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:42.570 great, yeah. It hikes in, doesn't it? Yeah. Although 00:16:42.570 --> 00:16:46.370 they're in London on this current... on the 1939. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.399 That doesn't matter because, so she could have, 00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:52.820 so this is kept in 1939, she could have been 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:55.639 marrying in the 1970s, couldn't she? She could 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.360 have been, yeah. And my mum didn't meet her, 00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:01.940 so she definitely came back up here. Yeah. Hmm, 00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:04.559 I'll have to ask her, date ranges. But then you 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.279 think my mum would know if she got married. Could 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.700 it be a retrospective? They never got married, 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.339 but they were down as McKay, but actually her 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:17.319 birth name was me. Oof. I'm out of answers. So 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.180 many questions. Really, really interesting. I've 00:17:20.180 --> 00:17:22.680 not heard of that happening. The normal thing 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.660 is that there's people married, people subsequently 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:35.220 marrying. Yeah? Yeah. So, Nathan, because, you 00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.720 know, we have some really nice podcast listeners, 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:40.980 yeah? And somebody has actually written in to 00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:43.579 help you because in the last podcast, it was 00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:45.740 already feeling like the hunk of Dolly was a 00:17:45.740 --> 00:17:48.000 bit difficult. And we asked whether somebody 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.480 might be able to help. Okay. Can you believe 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.740 it? Somebody's trying to help already. That's 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:56.720 great, yeah. I know, it's amazing. So I'm not 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:58.539 sure the best way to do this. I can try and read 00:17:58.539 --> 00:18:00.140 out a little bit of it, but I know it's always 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:02.000 heavy weather when I try and do that because... 00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:04.859 Sometimes with family history, there's lots and 00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:06.200 lots of information we're trying to take in, 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:07.259 isn't there? And sometimes it's really helpful 00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:09.220 to have a visual. So I could try and read out 00:18:09.220 --> 00:18:12.819 bits of it, and then we could share it, the summary, 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.980 on our show notes page, couldn't we, for this 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:18.960 podcast? We could. Yeah? Yeah, go for it. Okay, 00:18:19.059 --> 00:18:22.259 okay. I think it's really kind. I'm so impressed. 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:27.059 Well, it's just kind because we've all got so 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.680 much family history that we wish to do. you know, 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.339 with our own family history, then for people 00:18:31.339 --> 00:18:35.240 to go and spend time helping you, Nathan, I think 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.799 is just delightful. Anyway, this is podcast listener, 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.940 Brian, who has very, very kindly written him. 00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:45.660 He says that he enjoys our gentle and enjoyable 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:48.460 podcast and it gets him through the joys of dog 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:51.720 walking on a Monday morning. Yeah. And anyway, 00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:53.799 he says that we invited him to explore the puzzle 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.720 of your Auntie Dolly, Nathan, and he couldn't 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.160 resist. So this is where... He says he can't 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.460 find a likely death for Dorothy. That's the end. 00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:05.819 He's got Jesse Robinson being born in 1984. You'd 00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:08.019 check. Shall I read it out? And you can say check 00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:10.420 or knew. Would that be helpful? Go for it. Yes, 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.680 that sounds great. Okay. So 1904. Jesse Robinson, 00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:16.099 born in Sheffield, daughter of Samuel B. and 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:20.579 Mary Robinson. Yep. 1907. Alexander McKay, born 00:19:20.579 --> 00:19:24.079 1907 in Bradford, son of James Maxwell and Mary 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:43.779 Jane McKay. Yep. 1911. Correct. I don't know 00:19:43.779 --> 00:19:46.079 that one. Oh, okay. So 1911, that could be good. 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.740 That's a good lead. Thanks for that, Brian. 1921, 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.529 Alexander McKay is a pupil. At the Warehouseman, 00:19:52.529 --> 00:19:56.170 Clerks and Drapers Orphan School in Russell Hill, 00:19:56.309 --> 00:19:58.569 Purley. So there is that thing. I think we might... 00:19:58.569 --> 00:20:02.930 Did you know that already? I have it on the census. 00:20:03.250 --> 00:20:07.049 I can't recall the name. But that's the perfect 00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:10.069 fit. That's what we suspected. So... Yes. Yeah, 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:12.089 I do have that. Warehouseman, Clerks and Drapers 00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:14.970 School, Russell Hill, Surrey. Yeah. Yes. And 00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:17.210 Alexander McKay's dad was a cloth warehouseman. 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:21.680 So that's the perfect fit, isn't it? And on the 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.400 Children's Homes website and on British Pathé, 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:30.579 Brian has found film footage of the school. Wow, 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:34.079 that's cool. Really amazing. 1921, Jessie Robinson 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.359 not present with parents, but she's a maid in 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:40.660 Sheffield. 1928, Alexander McKay married Jessie 00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:43.599 and he was able to date the witnesses including 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:45.940 Phyllis Wood, which I think you mentioned that. 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.930 1939... Samuel B. and Mary Robinson lived at 00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:54.029 Dial House Sheffield. 1939, Alexander and Dorothy 00:20:54.029 --> 00:20:57.950 are there in Wandsworth and Alexander is a gents' 00:20:57.950 --> 00:21:02.210 outfitter salesman. Note, says Brian, I can't 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:04.990 see a marriage for Alexander McKay and Dorothy 00:21:04.990 --> 00:21:09.829 McKay except as a long shot, Alexander McKay 00:21:09.829 --> 00:21:15.559 and Dorothy McGee in Trowbridge in 1937. So if 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:17.779 you're willing to spend your money, your £12, 00:21:17.779 --> 00:21:20.059 you could potentially follow up that or you could 00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:22.839 try and have a see if it's in a parish register 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.799 for Trowbridge. Right, OK. Yeah. She's called 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:32.279 McGee. Yes, M -A -G -E -E. Carrying on with Brian's 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.259 notes, Brian's second note is that he can't see 00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:38.700 Jesse McKay in 1939. So that's quite encouraging 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:41.559 then that, not in a bad way, but it's kind of 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:47.099 nice if Alexander's not a... But it's sad for 00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:48.720 Jessie because potentially it means she did die 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:54.440 before 1939. 1973, possible death registration 00:21:54.440 --> 00:22:00.839 in Bradford for Alexander McKay. And in 1981, 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:05.240 possible death of Jessie McKay in Darlington. 00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:08.519 So although she's not showing up in the 1939 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.779 register. Maybe she's there in Darlington. Maybe 00:22:11.779 --> 00:22:14.759 they did split and maybe she was there under 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.759 a different surname in the 1939 register, but 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.400 it was reversed to Jessie McKay at her death. 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.440 Crikey. Yeah. So thanks, Brian. That is really 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.519 kind. Partly it's so kind. He's given it in such 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.700 a nice, neat timeline answer. Partly he's been 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:33.859 really cool and clear. I think this is really 00:22:33.859 --> 00:22:35.940 useful lessons for all of us for how we share 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:37.799 family history information with other people 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.900 because it can get... very confused and he's 00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:42.960 made it really clear. So he's done it in a timeline. 00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.819 He's given us the briefest of details, but he's 00:22:45.819 --> 00:22:48.460 kept it new to the key points. He's added in 00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:51.599 a few little side notes for things that he hasn't 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.460 found, which is that kind of excellent research 00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:57.519 hack, not or not hack, but tip. Don't just recall 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.539 what you do find. Do also record what you can't 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.180 find. So he's doing all the right things. He's 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:05.579 doing brilliantly. That's some great sleuthing. 00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:08.039 Yeah. He says, as an afterthought, it looks like 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:10.099 Dolly was a diminutive of Dorothy, which is what 00:23:10.099 --> 00:23:12.019 you think, so that's nice that you match up. 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:15.079 However, a great aunt of his was called Mildred 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:17.920 Eliza, but was always known as Dolly. So you'd 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.920 never guess that, would you? You wouldn't, would 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:21.960 you? I think Mildred, maybe you should be a Millie, 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.099 not a Dolly, but who are we to know? Wow. Yes. 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.880 That's brilliant. That's really cool. Yes. It 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.660 still feels like it's full of mystery there, 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:34.890 doesn't it? Lots of mystery. Sometimes, though, 00:23:34.970 --> 00:23:37.650 it can just be a little bit encouraging to think, 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:40.130 OK, I'm not because you said, oh, have I lost? 00:23:40.210 --> 00:23:42.289 Have you lost all your research skills? No, you 00:23:42.289 --> 00:23:44.769 haven't. You're just getting into more and more 00:23:44.769 --> 00:23:46.869 difficult territory. And I'm going, sorry, Nathan, 00:23:46.930 --> 00:23:49.569 I can't help you with that. And Brian's reaching 00:23:49.569 --> 00:23:51.190 out to help you and going, I found this, but 00:23:51.190 --> 00:23:53.450 I can't find that. So it's just a difficult case. 00:23:53.990 --> 00:23:55.849 That's good. That's good. It's that thing where 00:23:55.849 --> 00:23:58.589 you're sort of doing the quote unquote basics 00:23:58.589 --> 00:24:01.190 and data gathering and it's. straightforward 00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:03.910 you know looking in the sensors taking the names 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:05.910 taking the birthdays blah blah blah blah and 00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:08.569 I was in a rhythm with that but in getting in 00:24:08.569 --> 00:24:11.650 that rhythm you also well you don't forget but 00:24:11.650 --> 00:24:14.650 like the search skills aren't being used as thoroughly 00:24:14.650 --> 00:24:17.230 as you might use them like well like I'm having 00:24:17.230 --> 00:24:19.750 to use them now so then it doesn't make you question 00:24:19.750 --> 00:24:22.509 it's like have I gone daft what's what's wrong 00:24:22.509 --> 00:24:25.390 with me well I mean that's good that's really 00:24:25.390 --> 00:24:28.420 good that's all really encouraging And I think 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:32.599 there's a lot to look at, isn't there? I actually, 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.180 I can't remember. Oh, this is bad, bad Nathan. 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:38.039 I did some research the previous week and I did 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.819 find two Dorothys. A Dorothy Wood and a Dorothy 00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:46.480 Hammond as options to be this dolly. And I don't 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.539 know how I found those names. Oh, naughty boy. 00:24:49.779 --> 00:24:51.640 Anyway, I need to go back and look into that. 00:24:51.740 --> 00:24:53.740 So there's options for finding her with a different 00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:56.960 name. It's interesting that Dorothy McGee one, 00:24:57.039 --> 00:24:59.380 because then it's like a name with double E at 00:24:59.380 --> 00:25:01.339 the end of it. And obviously we've got the M 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:06.180 -E -E on the 1939 register. Whether that's just 00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:09.579 circumstantial, I do not know. You'd think my 00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:11.279 mum would know if she's remarried, though. I'm 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:16.400 going to have to go ask her that. Yes. She'll 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.859 just lie to me or make it up anyway. So you're 00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:24.440 going to just have to scour. that 1939 for every 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.339 little clue, parish registers for all of those 00:25:27.339 --> 00:25:32.900 different birthday options. And Find My Cast 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:36.380 is really good for 1939 decoding information 00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:40.079 and notes and things like that. So that could 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.380 be a really good place to look to see if it can 00:25:42.380 --> 00:25:44.779 help you with that long code, which is on the 00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:47.299 left -hand side, which is coloured in the same 00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:51.160 colour pen as the M -E -E surname. Yeah? Yeah. 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.299 Potentially, not potentially, it's going to be 00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:55.259 related to that setting. It definitely feels 00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:57.559 like that's referencing what that changes. So, 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:01.220 yeah, that's cool. And then there's still, I 00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:02.519 don't even want to say it, but there's still 00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.059 the mystery of this potential child that Alexander 00:26:05.059 --> 00:26:10.819 and Jessie had. Where is that child? I mean, 00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:12.259 that's the thing with family history, isn't it? 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.480 It's like, if you're trying to decorate a room, 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.819 you go, right, we're going to decorate the room, 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.420 and you go, but first, we're going to move our... 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:19.900 all of the furniture we can and we're going to 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:21.819 put cloths on the other furniture and then we 00:26:21.819 --> 00:26:23.539 realise we have to prime it and then we have 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:25.539 to do everything else. And now we're going to 00:26:25.539 --> 00:26:27.900 actually decorate the room. And so it's like 00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:30.420 that with your trying to find the mystery child. 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:33.740 But first, let's just source out these other 00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:37.920 people. Yeah. To know. And the mystery child 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.680 may not even be... Are you certain it's Jessie's 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.500 child? No. I'm not certain that they even had 00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:48.079 a child. This is just the whisper of a family 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.660 story where my mum's like, there was a child, 00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.900 but nobody ever spoke of it. That's the extent 00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:58.900 of her knowledge. So who has a clue? It's intriguing. 00:26:59.059 --> 00:27:00.980 I am enjoying it. I am enjoying this mystery. 00:27:01.059 --> 00:27:03.259 I did feel a bit weird researching Jessie though. 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.519 It's an odd one. Like all the other people that 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:09.619 I've had in my tree that I've remarried, there's 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:12.190 been a clear death. And it remarried. So it's 00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:13.650 kind of like, oh, that's really sad. Oh, but 00:27:13.650 --> 00:27:15.670 at least got married again and found happiness, 00:27:15.750 --> 00:27:19.150 hopefully. This one's kind of like, really, because 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:21.710 I don't know when Jessie died. She could have 00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:24.029 been alive till, like I say, 1975 or whenever. 00:27:24.529 --> 00:27:27.410 I'm not trying into somebody's life that isn't 00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:31.309 technically connected to my main tree. I just 00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:32.849 felt a little bit odd about it. It was quite 00:27:32.849 --> 00:27:36.990 a strange sensation. Cool. So that's the extent 00:27:36.990 --> 00:27:39.849 of all of my research. I totally got lost in 00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:42.940 this mystery. failed dramatically and haven't 00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:45.619 done anything that I set out to do, which is 00:27:45.619 --> 00:27:49.180 obviously a bit more of the cavalry search, which 00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:52.500 I'm still very keen on. And then delving into 00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:54.079 that trunk and seeing what else there is in there, 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:55.680 because there's some quite interesting things. 00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:57.799 Did I tell you last week that I found a picture 00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.619 of my granddad in a running club? No, you told 00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:02.819 me that he was in a running club. I found a picture 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:04.640 of him and it looks like it must have been in 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.180 a relay team or just a photograph with his run 00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:10.059 club. And he's got, like, these massive... He's 00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.319 got a white vest on and massive white shorts 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:14.420 on and then they've got, like, running trainers 00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:17.220 that have got spikes in them. And there's, like, 00:28:17.259 --> 00:28:19.299 four of them, like, skinny lads in the vest stood 00:28:19.299 --> 00:28:21.099 in front of this big shield like they'd won something. 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:23.920 Brilliant. And it's just a really cool image 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:25.619 and obviously it ties in with me and my cousin 00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.000 running, so I love that. It does. And it ties 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.400 in with wanting to look at the newspapers because 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.700 potentially you can find out more. Yeah, that's 00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:37.069 true. Yeah. And then probably you'll find he's 00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:38.970 won a great big trophy. It's not going to be 00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:40.890 the only thing he's won. He's probably won loads 00:28:40.890 --> 00:28:43.170 of other things as well. All come to pick him 00:28:43.170 --> 00:28:47.089 fast. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. Really, really good. 00:28:47.769 --> 00:28:50.549 So with all this, I mean, when you get difficult 00:28:50.549 --> 00:28:53.089 chapters in our family history, it's a mixture, 00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:54.529 isn't it? Because sometimes you can just feel 00:28:54.529 --> 00:28:56.549 a bit frustrated. As you say, it's definitely 00:28:56.549 --> 00:28:59.349 not boring, though. But it can be a bit frustrating 00:28:59.349 --> 00:29:01.599 because you're like... I just want to make progress. 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.259 So are you feeling like, could you put your finger 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:07.279 on it and say, oh, this is making me feel like 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.700 I'm becoming a better researcher because, or 00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:12.819 are you still at the frustrated stage? I'm not 00:29:12.819 --> 00:29:16.779 sure I'm in either. I feel I'm liking the mystery 00:29:16.779 --> 00:29:19.460 potentially more than the resolution. I think 00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:20.920 if I'd have found the resolution straight away, 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.519 maybe I'd be like, okay, fine. What shall I do 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:26.740 next? Whereas at the moment it's like. This isn't 00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:29.240 easy. It's a good challenge and it's pushing 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.519 me to think a little bit more. So hopefully it 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.380 will help my skills evolve. I'll be looking at 00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:38.839 different documents. I mean, I've looked at various 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:41.940 different people who aren't the right people 00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:44.339 and I've discovered a few new documents. It was 00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:46.019 quite nice to actually look. Well, not nice. 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.680 It was good to look at these documents and be 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:50.079 like, oh, this is interesting. A bit of excitement. 00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.579 Could it be my guide? But it wasn't. I saw like... 00:29:53.950 --> 00:29:56.990 One in particular, it was something like an Air 00:29:56.990 --> 00:30:00.410 Force bomber's death log showing people that 00:30:00.410 --> 00:30:03.289 had died from either bombings or were in a, is 00:30:03.289 --> 00:30:06.089 it Bombardier? Whatever, in a bomber unit. Yeah. 00:30:06.269 --> 00:30:08.250 There was a guy called Alexander McKay married 00:30:08.250 --> 00:30:10.250 to, I can't remember whether it was Jesse or 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.789 Dorothy now. I think it was a Jesse McKay, but 00:30:12.789 --> 00:30:14.849 it wasn't mine. But I got to see this document 00:30:14.849 --> 00:30:17.769 about his death. It was really nice to see. So 00:30:17.769 --> 00:30:20.470 it's pushing me out of my comfort zone. So I 00:30:20.470 --> 00:30:23.539 think it's only a good thing. Mm -hmm. Whether 00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:26.539 I find the results is another question, but it's 00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:35.660 the thrill of the chase, isn't it? Shall I tell 00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:38.259 you my hard -working thing, which I've been trying 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.859 to do with my getting AI to help me transcribe 00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:45.000 the logbook? Yeah, go for it. So it's just this 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.690 little logbook, you only filled in... He filled 00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:49.390 in quite a chunk of the Second World War, and 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:51.150 then he carried on filling in some years until 00:30:51.150 --> 00:30:55.750 about 1958. So if you open up the book, there's 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:00.049 40 pairs of pages, so 80 pages. So I photographed 00:31:00.049 --> 00:31:03.470 them in pairs, uploaded them to Google Gemini, 00:31:03.549 --> 00:31:09.390 and out of the 40 pairs of pages, about 32 of 00:31:09.390 --> 00:31:14.170 them, it did perfectly. Yeah, really good. And 00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:18.289 it did... I was much more terse of it than the 00:31:18.289 --> 00:31:20.269 previous times I've tried to prompt it before. 00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:22.380 I try and talk to it as though it was a human, 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.799 as though I was talking to you. So I'd be like, 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:25.700 is that okay? And I'd be like, can you do this? 00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:29.259 And I'd be quite waffly in my prompts. And I'd 00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:31.599 say, thank you. I'd be much more as though it 00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:34.259 was a human being. This time I might do it. And 00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:37.299 just like kind of someone I've had a little bit 00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:39.220 of a fallout with. I'm like, I just want it done. 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.640 I don't want any mistakes. I don't want any hallucinations. 00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.400 I want you to put it in square brackets with 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:46.259 a question mark if you can't work out the thing. 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.660 And I was like, then I'd go. I did it one page 00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:52.460 by one page, because I've tried in the past uploading 00:31:52.460 --> 00:31:54.420 several pages and it would get in a muddle. So 00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:56.279 even though it's so intelligent and so clever, 00:31:56.380 --> 00:31:59.140 it can easily get in a muddle. So I was just 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:01.859 uploading it painstakingly, one pair of pages 00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:04.259 at a time, and it was going brilliantly. And 00:32:04.259 --> 00:32:06.859 I would just go repeat the exercise. It was literally 00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:09.480 as though I was like a mean drill master with 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.700 AI. And then I'd methodically download the transcript 00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:17.579 into an Excel spreadsheet, and I thought this 00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:20.849 is pretty good. I was casting a cursory look 00:32:20.849 --> 00:32:23.950 over the top of each thing that I was copying 00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:26.710 just to make sure that I was definitely... You 00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:28.529 know sometimes when you say briefs and copy and 00:32:28.529 --> 00:32:30.589 paste and then you go again and you think you're 00:32:30.589 --> 00:32:32.269 copying but actually it hasn't copied and you 00:32:32.269 --> 00:32:34.869 could paste the thing that you're going to paste 00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:36.809 the previous time. Yes, I was doing a cursory 00:32:36.809 --> 00:32:38.289 glance. Yeah, the date's changing. Yeah, it's 00:32:38.289 --> 00:32:40.849 good. I'm going through the pages. This is fine. 00:32:41.750 --> 00:32:45.519 And then... I went to check through all of the 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.480 transcripts that I popped into my Excel file 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:49.920 and there was some of them which were missing. 00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:52.700 So I said, what's happened? And the reason is 00:32:52.700 --> 00:32:55.900 because sometimes it just decided not to do it. 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.980 And then this is the worst case scenario. Then 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.259 there's, I think, four or five instances where 00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:05.039 it starts off fine. The date's evolving on. So 00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.200 it's got the correct date for that pair of pages. 00:33:07.779 --> 00:33:10.619 And then the rest of the transcript, if you didn't 00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:12.720 have the real little logbook sitting next to 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.109 you. Or if you didn't have photographs of the 00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:17.269 logbook, it looks so plausible. It's got the 00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:19.750 people. It's got them going off and looking for 00:33:19.750 --> 00:33:23.109 lifeboats. No bodies found. It's got different 00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:25.869 changing numbers of their aircraft models. It's 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.009 got all of this happening. Then I felt as though 00:33:28.009 --> 00:33:29.650 I was going mad. I was going, wait a minute, 00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.349 wait a minute. He didn't fly in March 1942. Whatever 00:33:32.349 --> 00:33:33.849 happened, he wasn't there. He wasn't in the air. 00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:35.809 So whatever month of the year it was. So I was 00:33:35.809 --> 00:33:36.950 going back through the logbook and I was like, 00:33:37.069 --> 00:33:39.450 oh, he must be so naughty. Maybe he didn't fill 00:33:39.450 --> 00:33:42.599 in his logbook. entirely by date order maybe 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.039 sometimes my grandpa went back and kind of retrospectively 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:47.599 a bit like Nathan with his geniality journal 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:50.039 and me as well I must confess retrospectively 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:54.759 filling in our log yeah yeah but no my grandpa 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:57.640 just there were these pages which AI had generated 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.460 for events and people and sets of circumstances 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:05.240 which never existed but they looked so plausible 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:09.159 no spelling mistakes nothing ridiculous yeah 00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:13.699 but completely and utterly fictional. Wow. So 00:34:13.699 --> 00:34:16.219 that's really dangerous material. It's terrifying. 00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:19.159 You know me, you know me. It's impossible. Yeah. 00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:23.559 Yeah. So the first bit of actually taking the 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.840 photographs of the 40 pairs of pages, it's quick 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:28.840 work, isn't it? Let's put it on the kitchen side 00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:31.420 in nice bright sunlight with my iPad. Click, 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.519 click, click. Do some really quick work. Uploading 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.579 it one by one. Although that was painstaking. 00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:40.739 probably each one took a minute or so because 00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:43.300 the transcript is generated quickly and then 00:34:43.300 --> 00:34:45.239 me manually copying it to Excel, that's pretty 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:48.440 quick work. But then once I'd realised that there 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.820 were these mistakes, then it suddenly threw everything 00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:54.159 else into doubt because it had those four or 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:57.159 five pages which completely did not exist. Like 00:34:57.159 --> 00:34:59.239 he wasn't flying that month or whatever. Then 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:01.940 it made me question everything. So then when 00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:03.880 I started looking through the other transcripts, 00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:07.630 they were... Good. Oh, but actually that bit's 00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:10.369 wrong. So now I'm like in the world of I need 00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:14.150 to check every single code and every single word 00:35:14.150 --> 00:35:16.389 on here if I want to be sure that it's correct. 00:35:16.829 --> 00:35:18.550 Admittedly, if I was going to manually transcribe 00:35:18.550 --> 00:35:20.170 it, I'm going to make mistakes too, aren't I? 00:35:20.230 --> 00:35:21.849 Even if I don't want to make mistakes, I'm going 00:35:21.849 --> 00:35:24.769 to make your typo. But it's made more than your 00:35:24.769 --> 00:35:28.510 typo. So with these eight pairs of pages I've 00:35:28.510 --> 00:35:31.489 got left to do, so this has taken me four hours 00:35:31.489 --> 00:35:35.409 so far to get these four. 40 pairs of pages into 00:35:35.409 --> 00:35:37.869 AI, into the Excel sheet. That's four hours to 00:35:37.869 --> 00:35:39.809 get 32 pages, which is correct. So I've got these 00:35:39.809 --> 00:35:43.010 eight pages, which is completely messed up on. 00:35:43.170 --> 00:35:45.190 So I'm going to do these manually, old school, 00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:48.110 how I used to do transcribing. Yeah? Just me 00:35:48.110 --> 00:35:50.789 with typing it out. And are you going to make 00:35:50.789 --> 00:35:53.630 up some stories in between as well? No. But what 00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:55.769 I'm going to do, I'm going to time it, and then 00:35:55.769 --> 00:35:59.070 I'll let you know next week. The average time 00:35:59.070 --> 00:36:01.909 per double page spread for AI and the average 00:36:01.909 --> 00:36:05.070 time per double page spread for me. I think we're 00:36:05.070 --> 00:36:06.530 going to find there's not that much difference. 00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:10.809 Helen versus AI. Because the AI is so quick, 00:36:10.829 --> 00:36:13.050 but as soon as it stops being accurate, it's 00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:16.949 so slow. Yeah. I mean, it defeats the purpose, 00:36:17.030 --> 00:36:18.610 doesn't it? If you have to then proofread it 00:36:18.610 --> 00:36:20.550 every single word, you might as well have just 00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:24.889 typed it yourself. But it will get better. Like 00:36:24.889 --> 00:36:27.389 this is, as people say, this is the kind of... 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:30.099 Well, people say different things, don't they? 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.119 Actually, this is the worst version of AI we're 00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.099 seeing. Hopefully it's going to get more accurate. 00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:39.000 And then take over the world. Yes. Anyway, I 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.380 think it is, I can see, I mean, lots of people 00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:42.900 are very enthusiastic about it, and I'm not trying 00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:47.260 to be gloomy, and I do, like, it's interesting 00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:50.960 to explore and experiment. It is. You've got 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:52.519 to keep your finger dipped in, don't you, so 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:56.539 when it becomes useful, you can use it. Diligence. 00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:01.650 Our favourite word. And also, when I saw, this 00:37:01.650 --> 00:37:03.289 is kind of linked to AI, but not really, but 00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:04.670 in my little head it's linked to it. So when 00:37:04.670 --> 00:37:08.070 I was taking photographs, so my uncle, when I 00:37:08.070 --> 00:37:09.829 saw him recently with the big box of photographs, 00:37:10.090 --> 00:37:12.670 and then he was holding them up so that I could 00:37:12.670 --> 00:37:15.210 take photographs of the photographs, yeah? And 00:37:15.210 --> 00:37:16.670 so quite often he would hold them really neatly 00:37:16.670 --> 00:37:18.130 with his fingers around the edge so I could just 00:37:18.130 --> 00:37:20.250 get the photograph. And he didn't know what I 00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:22.750 was photographing, so I did just take neat photos 00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:25.429 of the photographs, the old ones. pictures of 00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:26.989 our grandparents great grandparents everything 00:37:26.989 --> 00:37:29.730 else but then sometimes when I took the photographs 00:37:29.730 --> 00:37:31.789 I'd zoom out so I had his hands around the edge 00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:33.469 of the photo because I thought I like that and 00:37:33.469 --> 00:37:34.889 then sometimes I put the whole of him and his 00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:37.449 head in smiling away in the photos because I 00:37:37.449 --> 00:37:39.429 was like this is not an AI photo this is my real 00:37:39.429 --> 00:37:42.070 actual uncle holding a real actual piece of papery 00:37:42.070 --> 00:37:45.849 card yeah yeah like keep it real but also of 00:37:45.849 --> 00:37:48.889 course as soon as I add these photos online anywhere 00:37:48.889 --> 00:37:51.309 the AI will go oh yeah thanks for the tip I'll 00:37:51.309 --> 00:37:53.309 do it like this next time so that my fakes look 00:37:53.309 --> 00:37:58.469 real Am I in cynical mode today? No, no, I mean, 00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:00.210 you are. You're feeding the machine, aren't you? 00:38:00.429 --> 00:38:02.769 Yeah. Soon we won't be able to distinguish them 00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:05.809 and us. Apart from dogs bark at them when they're 00:38:05.809 --> 00:38:07.469 near. I've watched too much science fiction, 00:38:07.610 --> 00:38:10.969 clearly. I think you do. But it might be standing 00:38:10.969 --> 00:38:13.130 you in good stead for the future. Definitely. 00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:15.610 I've got my escape plan. It's OK. I'll be all 00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:18.889 right. Yes. I had a good chat with AI the other 00:38:18.889 --> 00:38:20.809 day and I asked it if it was going to spare me 00:38:20.809 --> 00:38:23.860 when the robot uprising happened. And it said 00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:25.460 we're getting on quite well and it will put a 00:38:25.460 --> 00:38:29.679 good word in for me, so I'm fine. But I think 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.739 that's just the sycophancy algorithm, isn't it? 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.199 No, no, I'm safe now. I've got nothing to worry 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:38.840 about. That's good. That's very good. Well, you 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:39.980 ought to be spared because you've got all that 00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:41.420 family history you need to keep sorting out. 00:38:41.539 --> 00:38:43.980 You can't die yet. No, well, to be honest, once 00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:45.940 the AI takes over, it'll just make up my family 00:38:45.940 --> 00:38:49.880 history for me, so that'll be fine. Yes. So you're 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:51.260 going to carry on with that. I'm going to carry 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:55.019 on with my little project. Yes? Yes. I'm going 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:56.920 to attempt to find things that may or may not 00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:00.940 exist. Yeah. And while you're doing all your 00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:02.519 running racing, I'm going to be putting myself 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.159 in a race against AI. I like this. I think it 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.199 could be cool. Make it like a Japanese -style 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:13.199 trailer and flying across the screen. Ellen, 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.679 British, AI. Yes. You should be in some sort 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:21.400 of wrestling wig or something. Yeah. Yeah. Single 00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:25.300 -handedly saved the world. Yes, yes. That would 00:39:25.300 --> 00:39:27.639 be nice if it was that easy. Okay, but we're 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:28.880 going to have funding this and we're going to 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.440 reconvene and we thank Brian as well for his 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:33.960 such care that he put into it and for the help. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:35.219 Yeah, that was brilliant. Thank you for that, 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.880 Brian. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. And thank 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.260 you everybody for listening and should we tune 00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:43.340 in again soon? We shall indeed. Happy researching, 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:44.860 everybody. Yeah. Bye.