Hello everybody and welcome to Family Tree Talk,
your favourite Family Tree podcast. I'm your
co -host Nathan Ward and with me as always is...
Helen Tovey. Hi Helen, you alright? I'm very,
very well, yes. How are you? I'm not too bad,
thank you. I'm very warm. We've had a warm one,
haven't we, recently? We have. Makes it hard
to concentrate on anything. Yes. At least you're
not working in the hot sun. Big agricultural
labourer in Victorian times. That's true. But
maybe you'd be just out in the sun drinking beer.
It'll all be all right. I mean, to be honest,
I've quite... Would I like to be outside? I'm
not sure I would. I do like warmth, but I'm not
sure I like it continuously. I went for a run
at half past six this morning to avoid the heat
and it was still 20 degrees. What's up with that?
Did not like it. Anyway, how's your family history
going? going well on lots of fronts, actually.
Oh, intriguing. Yes. So I said recently that
I was going to revive my plan to try and get
AI to help me transcribe one of my grandfather's
RAF love books from the Second World War. That
is definitely all going well. Cool. So you've
managed to befriend AI properly? Not really.
I've made... I've made a friend. You kind of
make a friend and then you know when that friend's
quite a new friend and then they let you down
a few times and you're like, okay, well, I can
see the sort of relationship we're going to have.
You're a friend, but you're not getting into
the best friend camp. Yeah. I might or might
not invite you to my birthday party. We'll see
how you're behaving. Oh, poor AI. So that's where
we are with AI. So I'm now going to actually
put it to a test. So I've been doing that and
I've been, I come back to that, you want me to
or not, and I've been seeing my family recently,
which is fantastic. So that's just always fun
for family history. And I've been chatting to
one of my uncles who loves old family photos.
He always says, that's it, that's all of it.
I found all the photos now. These are all the
old photos. I haven't got any more left. And
then when I saw him recently, he had another
big, wonderful box. the size of two lever arch
files. Imagine if you put them next to each other.
Apparently it's an old dress box. But when my
great -granny used to go and buy dresses, then
the dress would come in a box. Like, never mind,
do you want a bag with that? They'd have an actual
fancy box with tissue paper and everything. Anyway,
this box is very broken now, but it's full of
beautiful old photos. So that was really fun
talking to my uncle and handling these old photos.
And he's going to scan in loads and send me loads
of scans. And what else happened? Oh, yes. My
aunt was going to, I saw her recently at our
family gathering. Me and my daughter were very
excited because she was going to teach us some
of the special recipes she knows because she's
a very good cook. The only recipe she taught
us was for a margarita, but we're not complaining.
Yeah. That sounds like the perfect family recipe.
Yeah, so I've got a video of her making her margarita
now to go into the family files. It all counts,
doesn't it? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yes, so I've
had family history on all sorts of fronts, in
all sorts of different guises, and it's all fun.
Oh, I took a really fun family photo. We made
a little family tree photo. So we're sitting
on a bench. My mum's sitting on the bench. Then
I sat on her lap because I'm her baby. And then
my two daughters sat on my lap because they're
my babies. And then one of my daughters is a
little baby girl and she sat on the top like
a little cherry on the cake. She's that baby.
Your mum's now squashed. My mum's slightly squashed
on one side. That sounds really cute. Yeah, it's
really cute. It's a funny day. How about you?
It's not gone well. I'm blaming the heat. Yes.
Oh, wow. Where do I begin? So last time I left
you all with a little mystery of my Alexander
McKay. And he was married to someone called Jesse
Robinson. Yet my mum thought he was married to
someone called Dorothy. Well, Dolly, who could
be a Dorothy. And I couldn't find details for
their marriage. There's also rumours of a child
born with Jesse. I couldn't find any details
of that. So I've been off on a mission trying
to find anything I can. And honestly, I don't
know whether my skill sets have just sort of
just gone or whether it is actually hard to find
or even if anything exists. I'm so confused right
now. The only other reference I have managed
to find for any of these three people, Alexander,
Jesse or Dolly slash Dorothy, is the 1939 register.
And on the 1939 register, I have Alexander living
with Dorothy L. McKay, which suggests a marriage
has taken place. So that happened in 1939. And
I have... Alexander marrying Jessie in 1928 at
the age of 24. So from that, I could obviously
roughly work out she was born in 1904 or 1903,
depending on when she was actually born. That's
literally it. I cannot find any references to
anyone. I then went on a search trying to find
Jessie as a Robinson and Jessie as a McKay. And
I've found a few examples of people that could
be her, but I have no real connections. And some
of them have her dying in like 1975, which could
be true. Maybe even later as well. I feel a bit
weird about this because I don't know if she
died or if they divorced or anything. So I don't
really know what record I'm looking for. I have...
been handed down verbal information that Alexander
had a child, but there's no records of it and
I don't know any details of it and it was never
talked about apparently. So there's just lots
of grey areas. My current thought is that maybe
they didn't get divorced, maybe she didn't die
and maybe he pretend married his wife for keeping
up appearances, Dorothy. because I literally
just can't find anything about them. So that's
where I'm at. The 1939 has Dorothy as a McKay,
but then somebody's crossed it out, and in uppercase
it says M -E -E on it, which I don't know what
means. And then there's some green text next
to it with lots of reference numbers, so I don't
really know what that means. Maybe you should
look at that for me and see where it is. So what
do you want me to say? I don't know. You've probably
already come up with a weird and wonderful story.
No, I haven't. No, not at all. So it does sound,
it's very disconcerting when you're on kind of
territory like that. But if you looked in the
places you'd expect, so the places you'd expect
just a quick one -on -one. If somebody's newer
to family history, looking for birth, marriage
and deaths, it would be free. BMD would be a
good place. Or the GRO. And these are for England
and Wales, those two websites. So... But your
family does seem to be very much based in the
local area in Yorkshire. I remember from a previous
episode, you said there were some connections
down to the south of England. Was it Sussex or
Surrey? Yes. And on the 1939, the residency is
Wandsworth in London. Okay, yeah. But the marriage
certificate for when he married Jessie, the place
of living for both of them was in Idle, which
is in Bradford. So they were up here, but he
was the one who got sent to boarding school down
south. Yeah. We did wonder before whether they
just came back up here to get married, but it
does seem like his wife was from up here. I literally
am so confused that I don't know where to go.
To that bit, that bit could be okay. So let's
see, his family come from Idle or that area of
Yorkshire. He's sent down to boarding school
in the south because his dad passes away and
we're thinking maybe he gets some sort of bursary,
some sort of orphan or fatherless child funding
or family member steps in. Somebody steps in
to pay for that boarding school education for
him to help him with his life now that he doesn't
have a dad to help care for him. And then after
that, he could return to kind of his home, his
place in his home county. That would make sense,
wouldn't it? To go back to his roots. He's living
there. He's a young man. Marries Jessie. And
then life goes on. And I think that's quite normal,
isn't it? When people get married and quite often
when they have their first child, they might
go back to the, particularly in times past, they'd
go back to the place where the bride's mum, maybe
to have the first baby, just so the bride's mum,
the pregnant person's mother, can help look after
them. So you're kind of going back to the roots
at that stage, but then the subsequent later
marriage. marrying in london when you're kind
of an established adult you can imagine you um
it's not going to be the big white wedding deal
it's going to be much more potentially you know
more of a personal um thing rather than a family
thing very often that happens with second marriages
doesn't it and subsequent marriages so those
places are all okay they're not like alarm bell
places but they're equally they're not so firm
and they're not following a nice sequence that
you can feel really confident with that information
you've got and then with the fact that somebody
is finding jesse dying decades after her husband
remarries then that is an alarm bell situation
because it could be that person's completely
wrong or it could be that her husband married
bigamously or it could be that just Jesse and
Alexander separated and he got together with
Dorothy they portrayed themselves as married
but they didn't actually marry and if they just
portrayed themselves as married but didn't actually
marry they're not committing bigamy are they
they're just living together but because of the
kind of social values at the time. They're just
pretending to be married so that they don't feel
judged. So that could, you may not find a marriage,
even though they're pretending to be married,
which you know that already. And when you mentioned
on the 1939 register, that was really interesting.
You said there was another surname or M -E -E
written and her surname McKay had been crossed
out. So that could be that Dorothy marries subsequently
after she's with Alexander McKay. because the
1939 register was like a living record. Quick
101. We do this because we've heard from podcast
listeners that we've got podcast listeners of
different levels. So the 1939 register was gathered
for all people in England, Wales, Scotland and
Northern Ireland in the early weeks of the Second
World War to find out information about them
for ration cards, for identity cards and potentially
for conscription and potentially what roles people
could undertake on the home front to help protect
the country. And the records are available readily
for people in England and Wales online. So Nathan's
now sharing his screen with me, which is great.
He showed me a little bit of the 1939 register,
which you can view on websites like Ancestry
and Find My Past. And it's got the original page,
which has been filled in in blue biro. And then
on Dorothy McKay's entry, then it's got McKay
has been crossed out. And as he says, it's got
me written in. Green Capital, so M -E -E. So
to me, that looks as though she's married subsequently.
After being M -O -K, she's subsequently married
because this 1939 register carried on being a
record which was used when the NHS got established
in the late 1940s. This record was a living record,
so it carried on being amended and updated all
through until the 1990s, which is extraordinary,
isn't it, Nathan? That is crazy. If you weren't
on there in the first place in 1939, you're not
going to be on this iteration of the 1939 register,
obviously. But for the people who were, it was
used to help be a database for them, in effect.
So you've got Dorothy's birthday as well, which
was really helpful in her year of birth, because
then that's just great for trying to trace Dorothy
forward and backwards, isn't it? Yeah. So what
are you suggesting? That she married somebody
else later on called me? Yes. And the reason
why I think it's worth trying to track down her
birth. So you've got her first name, Dorothy.
You've got her middle initial, L. And you've
got, because the 1939 register is brilliant,
it gives people's precise birthday. So this Dorothy
was born the 26th of May? Well, above it in pencil,
it says 26th of May, 1900. But then above it
in pencil, it says 26th of June, 1900. Yes, it
does, doesn't it? So I would check out all of
those dates, but potentially they're going to
be in the same quarter on the free BMD index
anyway, aren't they? Yeah? Mm -hmm. But it's
still a really helpful pointer because then you
can hopefully try and track down maybe what Dorothy's
previous surname was because you've got her there
only with her married name, whether it's a McKay,
whether that's a... actual married name or whether
just a purported married name you haven't actually
got her birth surname yet so that's what you're
on the hunt for if you want it could be feel
that you're getting further and further from
your core event because you'd be looking for
Dorothy's subsequent marriage so you need to
know you can obviously search for Dorothy McKay
marrying a Mr Me but if she was pretending to
be Dorothy McKay she was actually Dorothy her
maiden name you need to be searching for Dorothy
her maiden name yeah oh but you could feel this
is too much of a side shoot and you're not going
to go there I mean, it is a side shoot, but I
think I do want to go there. I quite like this
little mystery. Like I said before, I've been
stuck in numbers and dates for a while now, so
this is quite cool. It's frustrating, but it's
quite cool. And to be fair to Nathan, this is
really interesting. So he's only showing me,
what is it, one, two, three, four, five, six,
ten lines of the 1939 Manchester, so the entries
for ten people. And out of those ten people...
Nine of them are listed. They've got the details
nice and clearly corrected. No one's had any
amendments made to them. Everybody's managed
to remember their own birthday correctly and
get it recorded correctly. Everything's going
well. And when you come to Dorothy, this is when
Nathan's getting stuck. But the married name
isn't a particular problem because that does
happen all the way through. If people marry,
then you're going to find them with their married
surname subsequently amended. That's not a problem.
Dorothy's the only person here who's managed
to get her birthday recorded wrong or potentially
wrong. Because the first entry for her birthday
isn't even crossed out. It's just got a second
version of her birthday. So it'll either be the
26th of August, maybe. I think that says May.
Oh, it could be. Yeah, I don't know. So I think
it could be August. Anyway, either which way,
the point is she's got another pencil date to
be added on. 26th of June. And she's the only
person who over on the far left -hand side has
got this massive long code number, which I have
no idea what it is. Lots of clever people will
know what it means, but I don't. So it reads
out as OR283BRA18483. So Nathan, I think we need
to find out what the heck that is. And it could
be some statistical thing, but it could say,
give us clues about what the heck's happening
with the details recorded for Dorothy. Well,
I'm going to guess that the BRA stands for Bradford.
Okay, clever, yeah. And I've previously had one
of these where somebody's remarried and they
actually had the wedding reference number, you
know, the volume. Oh, yeah, yeah. Age. I've never
noticed that. Okay. But they're quite high numbers,
aren't they? Oh. So it could be that. I'll have
to do some searching. But that's fantastic, though,
because what this means is when you go to Freebie
of Deed... Your Bradford clue is brilliant because
rather than just searching the whole of England
and Wales for Dorothy Earle, born in 19... and
marrying a Mr. Me, you've now got the Bradford
clue. Clever, Sherlock. Well, I mean, it might
be totally wrong, but... No, I think it sounds
great, yeah. It hikes in, doesn't it? Yeah. Although
they're in London on this current... on the 1939.
That doesn't matter because, so she could have,
so this is kept in 1939, she could have been
marrying in the 1970s, couldn't she? She could
have been, yeah. And my mum didn't meet her,
so she definitely came back up here. Yeah. Hmm,
I'll have to ask her, date ranges. But then you
think my mum would know if she got married. Could
it be a retrospective? They never got married,
but they were down as McKay, but actually her
birth name was me. Oof. I'm out of answers. So
many questions. Really, really interesting. I've
not heard of that happening. The normal thing
is that there's people married, people subsequently
marrying. Yeah? Yeah. So, Nathan, because, you
know, we have some really nice podcast listeners,
yeah? And somebody has actually written in to
help you because in the last podcast, it was
already feeling like the hunk of Dolly was a
bit difficult. And we asked whether somebody
might be able to help. Okay. Can you believe
it? Somebody's trying to help already. That's
great, yeah. I know, it's amazing. So I'm not
sure the best way to do this. I can try and read
out a little bit of it, but I know it's always
heavy weather when I try and do that because...
Sometimes with family history, there's lots and
lots of information we're trying to take in,
isn't there? And sometimes it's really helpful
to have a visual. So I could try and read out
bits of it, and then we could share it, the summary,
on our show notes page, couldn't we, for this
podcast? We could. Yeah? Yeah, go for it. Okay,
okay. I think it's really kind. I'm so impressed.
Well, it's just kind because we've all got so
much family history that we wish to do. you know,
with our own family history, then for people
to go and spend time helping you, Nathan, I think
is just delightful. Anyway, this is podcast listener,
Brian, who has very, very kindly written him.
He says that he enjoys our gentle and enjoyable
podcast and it gets him through the joys of dog
walking on a Monday morning. Yeah. And anyway,
he says that we invited him to explore the puzzle
of your Auntie Dolly, Nathan, and he couldn't
resist. So this is where... He says he can't
find a likely death for Dorothy. That's the end.
He's got Jesse Robinson being born in 1984. You'd
check. Shall I read it out? And you can say check
or knew. Would that be helpful? Go for it. Yes,
that sounds great. Okay. So 1904. Jesse Robinson,
born in Sheffield, daughter of Samuel B. and
Mary Robinson. Yep. 1907. Alexander McKay, born
1907 in Bradford, son of James Maxwell and Mary
Jane McKay. Yep. 1911. Correct. I don't know
that one. Oh, okay. So 1911, that could be good.
That's a good lead. Thanks for that, Brian. 1921,
Alexander McKay is a pupil. At the Warehouseman,
Clerks and Drapers Orphan School in Russell Hill,
Purley. So there is that thing. I think we might...
Did you know that already? I have it on the census.
I can't recall the name. But that's the perfect
fit. That's what we suspected. So... Yes. Yeah,
I do have that. Warehouseman, Clerks and Drapers
School, Russell Hill, Surrey. Yeah. Yes. And
Alexander McKay's dad was a cloth warehouseman.
So that's the perfect fit, isn't it? And on the
Children's Homes website and on British Pathé,
Brian has found film footage of the school. Wow,
that's cool. Really amazing. 1921, Jessie Robinson
not present with parents, but she's a maid in
Sheffield. 1928, Alexander McKay married Jessie
and he was able to date the witnesses including
Phyllis Wood, which I think you mentioned that.
1939... Samuel B. and Mary Robinson lived at
Dial House Sheffield. 1939, Alexander and Dorothy
are there in Wandsworth and Alexander is a gents'
outfitter salesman. Note, says Brian, I can't
see a marriage for Alexander McKay and Dorothy
McKay except as a long shot, Alexander McKay
and Dorothy McGee in Trowbridge in 1937. So if
you're willing to spend your money, your £12,
you could potentially follow up that or you could
try and have a see if it's in a parish register
for Trowbridge. Right, OK. Yeah. She's called
McGee. Yes, M -A -G -E -E. Carrying on with Brian's
notes, Brian's second note is that he can't see
Jesse McKay in 1939. So that's quite encouraging
then that, not in a bad way, but it's kind of
nice if Alexander's not a... But it's sad for
Jessie because potentially it means she did die
before 1939. 1973, possible death registration
in Bradford for Alexander McKay. And in 1981,
possible death of Jessie McKay in Darlington.
So although she's not showing up in the 1939
register. Maybe she's there in Darlington. Maybe
they did split and maybe she was there under
a different surname in the 1939 register, but
it was reversed to Jessie McKay at her death.
Crikey. Yeah. So thanks, Brian. That is really
kind. Partly it's so kind. He's given it in such
a nice, neat timeline answer. Partly he's been
really cool and clear. I think this is really
useful lessons for all of us for how we share
family history information with other people
because it can get... very confused and he's
made it really clear. So he's done it in a timeline.
He's given us the briefest of details, but he's
kept it new to the key points. He's added in
a few little side notes for things that he hasn't
found, which is that kind of excellent research
hack, not or not hack, but tip. Don't just recall
what you do find. Do also record what you can't
find. So he's doing all the right things. He's
doing brilliantly. That's some great sleuthing.
Yeah. He says, as an afterthought, it looks like
Dolly was a diminutive of Dorothy, which is what
you think, so that's nice that you match up.
However, a great aunt of his was called Mildred
Eliza, but was always known as Dolly. So you'd
never guess that, would you? You wouldn't, would
you? I think Mildred, maybe you should be a Millie,
not a Dolly, but who are we to know? Wow. Yes.
That's brilliant. That's really cool. Yes. It
still feels like it's full of mystery there,
doesn't it? Lots of mystery. Sometimes, though,
it can just be a little bit encouraging to think,
OK, I'm not because you said, oh, have I lost?
Have you lost all your research skills? No, you
haven't. You're just getting into more and more
difficult territory. And I'm going, sorry, Nathan,
I can't help you with that. And Brian's reaching
out to help you and going, I found this, but
I can't find that. So it's just a difficult case.
That's good. That's good. It's that thing where
you're sort of doing the quote unquote basics
and data gathering and it's. straightforward
you know looking in the sensors taking the names
taking the birthdays blah blah blah blah and
I was in a rhythm with that but in getting in
that rhythm you also well you don't forget but
like the search skills aren't being used as thoroughly
as you might use them like well like I'm having
to use them now so then it doesn't make you question
it's like have I gone daft what's what's wrong
with me well I mean that's good that's really
good that's all really encouraging And I think
there's a lot to look at, isn't there? I actually,
I can't remember. Oh, this is bad, bad Nathan.
I did some research the previous week and I did
find two Dorothys. A Dorothy Wood and a Dorothy
Hammond as options to be this dolly. And I don't
know how I found those names. Oh, naughty boy.
Anyway, I need to go back and look into that.
So there's options for finding her with a different
name. It's interesting that Dorothy McGee one,
because then it's like a name with double E at
the end of it. And obviously we've got the M
-E -E on the 1939 register. Whether that's just
circumstantial, I do not know. You'd think my
mum would know if she's remarried, though. I'm
going to have to go ask her that. Yes. She'll
just lie to me or make it up anyway. So you're
going to just have to scour. that 1939 for every
little clue, parish registers for all of those
different birthday options. And Find My Cast
is really good for 1939 decoding information
and notes and things like that. So that could
be a really good place to look to see if it can
help you with that long code, which is on the
left -hand side, which is coloured in the same
colour pen as the M -E -E surname. Yeah? Yeah.
Potentially, not potentially, it's going to be
related to that setting. It definitely feels
like that's referencing what that changes. So,
yeah, that's cool. And then there's still, I
don't even want to say it, but there's still
the mystery of this potential child that Alexander
and Jessie had. Where is that child? I mean,
that's the thing with family history, isn't it?
It's like, if you're trying to decorate a room,
you go, right, we're going to decorate the room,
and you go, but first, we're going to move our...
all of the furniture we can and we're going to
put cloths on the other furniture and then we
realise we have to prime it and then we have
to do everything else. And now we're going to
actually decorate the room. And so it's like
that with your trying to find the mystery child.
But first, let's just source out these other
people. Yeah. To know. And the mystery child
may not even be... Are you certain it's Jessie's
child? No. I'm not certain that they even had
a child. This is just the whisper of a family
story where my mum's like, there was a child,
but nobody ever spoke of it. That's the extent
of her knowledge. So who has a clue? It's intriguing.
I am enjoying it. I am enjoying this mystery.
I did feel a bit weird researching Jessie though.
It's an odd one. Like all the other people that
I've had in my tree that I've remarried, there's
been a clear death. And it remarried. So it's
kind of like, oh, that's really sad. Oh, but
at least got married again and found happiness,
hopefully. This one's kind of like, really, because
I don't know when Jessie died. She could have
been alive till, like I say, 1975 or whenever.
I'm not trying into somebody's life that isn't
technically connected to my main tree. I just
felt a little bit odd about it. It was quite
a strange sensation. Cool. So that's the extent
of all of my research. I totally got lost in
this mystery. failed dramatically and haven't
done anything that I set out to do, which is
obviously a bit more of the cavalry search, which
I'm still very keen on. And then delving into
that trunk and seeing what else there is in there,
because there's some quite interesting things.
Did I tell you last week that I found a picture
of my granddad in a running club? No, you told
me that he was in a running club. I found a picture
of him and it looks like it must have been in
a relay team or just a photograph with his run
club. And he's got, like, these massive... He's
got a white vest on and massive white shorts
on and then they've got, like, running trainers
that have got spikes in them. And there's, like,
four of them, like, skinny lads in the vest stood
in front of this big shield like they'd won something.
Brilliant. And it's just a really cool image
and obviously it ties in with me and my cousin
running, so I love that. It does. And it ties
in with wanting to look at the newspapers because
potentially you can find out more. Yeah, that's
true. Yeah. And then probably you'll find he's
won a great big trophy. It's not going to be
the only thing he's won. He's probably won loads
of other things as well. All come to pick him
fast. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. Really, really good.
So with all this, I mean, when you get difficult
chapters in our family history, it's a mixture,
isn't it? Because sometimes you can just feel
a bit frustrated. As you say, it's definitely
not boring, though. But it can be a bit frustrating
because you're like... I just want to make progress.
So are you feeling like, could you put your finger
on it and say, oh, this is making me feel like
I'm becoming a better researcher because, or
are you still at the frustrated stage? I'm not
sure I'm in either. I feel I'm liking the mystery
potentially more than the resolution. I think
if I'd have found the resolution straight away,
maybe I'd be like, okay, fine. What shall I do
next? Whereas at the moment it's like. This isn't
easy. It's a good challenge and it's pushing
me to think a little bit more. So hopefully it
will help my skills evolve. I'll be looking at
different documents. I mean, I've looked at various
different people who aren't the right people
and I've discovered a few new documents. It was
quite nice to actually look. Well, not nice.
It was good to look at these documents and be
like, oh, this is interesting. A bit of excitement.
Could it be my guide? But it wasn't. I saw like...
One in particular, it was something like an Air
Force bomber's death log showing people that
had died from either bombings or were in a, is
it Bombardier? Whatever, in a bomber unit. Yeah.
There was a guy called Alexander McKay married
to, I can't remember whether it was Jesse or
Dorothy now. I think it was a Jesse McKay, but
it wasn't mine. But I got to see this document
about his death. It was really nice to see. So
it's pushing me out of my comfort zone. So I
think it's only a good thing. Mm -hmm. Whether
I find the results is another question, but it's
the thrill of the chase, isn't it? Shall I tell
you my hard -working thing, which I've been trying
to do with my getting AI to help me transcribe
the logbook? Yeah, go for it. So it's just this
little logbook, you only filled in... He filled
in quite a chunk of the Second World War, and
then he carried on filling in some years until
about 1958. So if you open up the book, there's
40 pairs of pages, so 80 pages. So I photographed
them in pairs, uploaded them to Google Gemini,
and out of the 40 pairs of pages, about 32 of
them, it did perfectly. Yeah, really good. And
it did... I was much more terse of it than the
previous times I've tried to prompt it before.
I try and talk to it as though it was a human,
as though I was talking to you. So I'd be like,
is that okay? And I'd be like, can you do this?
And I'd be quite waffly in my prompts. And I'd
say, thank you. I'd be much more as though it
was a human being. This time I might do it. And
just like kind of someone I've had a little bit
of a fallout with. I'm like, I just want it done.
I don't want any mistakes. I don't want any hallucinations.
I want you to put it in square brackets with
a question mark if you can't work out the thing.
And I was like, then I'd go. I did it one page
by one page, because I've tried in the past uploading
several pages and it would get in a muddle. So
even though it's so intelligent and so clever,
it can easily get in a muddle. So I was just
uploading it painstakingly, one pair of pages
at a time, and it was going brilliantly. And
I would just go repeat the exercise. It was literally
as though I was like a mean drill master with
AI. And then I'd methodically download the transcript
into an Excel spreadsheet, and I thought this
is pretty good. I was casting a cursory look
over the top of each thing that I was copying
just to make sure that I was definitely... You
know sometimes when you say briefs and copy and
paste and then you go again and you think you're
copying but actually it hasn't copied and you
could paste the thing that you're going to paste
the previous time. Yes, I was doing a cursory
glance. Yeah, the date's changing. Yeah, it's
good. I'm going through the pages. This is fine.
And then... I went to check through all of the
transcripts that I popped into my Excel file
and there was some of them which were missing.
So I said, what's happened? And the reason is
because sometimes it just decided not to do it.
And then this is the worst case scenario. Then
there's, I think, four or five instances where
it starts off fine. The date's evolving on. So
it's got the correct date for that pair of pages.
And then the rest of the transcript, if you didn't
have the real little logbook sitting next to
you. Or if you didn't have photographs of the
logbook, it looks so plausible. It's got the
people. It's got them going off and looking for
lifeboats. No bodies found. It's got different
changing numbers of their aircraft models. It's
got all of this happening. Then I felt as though
I was going mad. I was going, wait a minute,
wait a minute. He didn't fly in March 1942. Whatever
happened, he wasn't there. He wasn't in the air.
So whatever month of the year it was. So I was
going back through the logbook and I was like,
oh, he must be so naughty. Maybe he didn't fill
in his logbook. entirely by date order maybe
sometimes my grandpa went back and kind of retrospectively
a bit like Nathan with his geniality journal
and me as well I must confess retrospectively
filling in our log yeah yeah but no my grandpa
just there were these pages which AI had generated
for events and people and sets of circumstances
which never existed but they looked so plausible
no spelling mistakes nothing ridiculous yeah
but completely and utterly fictional. Wow. So
that's really dangerous material. It's terrifying.
You know me, you know me. It's impossible. Yeah.
Yeah. So the first bit of actually taking the
photographs of the 40 pairs of pages, it's quick
work, isn't it? Let's put it on the kitchen side
in nice bright sunlight with my iPad. Click,
click, click. Do some really quick work. Uploading
it one by one. Although that was painstaking.
probably each one took a minute or so because
the transcript is generated quickly and then
me manually copying it to Excel, that's pretty
quick work. But then once I'd realised that there
were these mistakes, then it suddenly threw everything
else into doubt because it had those four or
five pages which completely did not exist. Like
he wasn't flying that month or whatever. Then
it made me question everything. So then when
I started looking through the other transcripts,
they were... Good. Oh, but actually that bit's
wrong. So now I'm like in the world of I need
to check every single code and every single word
on here if I want to be sure that it's correct.
Admittedly, if I was going to manually transcribe
it, I'm going to make mistakes too, aren't I?
Even if I don't want to make mistakes, I'm going
to make your typo. But it's made more than your
typo. So with these eight pairs of pages I've
got left to do, so this has taken me four hours
so far to get these four. 40 pairs of pages into
AI, into the Excel sheet. That's four hours to
get 32 pages, which is correct. So I've got these
eight pages, which is completely messed up on.
So I'm going to do these manually, old school,
how I used to do transcribing. Yeah? Just me
with typing it out. And are you going to make
up some stories in between as well? No. But what
I'm going to do, I'm going to time it, and then
I'll let you know next week. The average time
per double page spread for AI and the average
time per double page spread for me. I think we're
going to find there's not that much difference.
Helen versus AI. Because the AI is so quick,
but as soon as it stops being accurate, it's
so slow. Yeah. I mean, it defeats the purpose,
doesn't it? If you have to then proofread it
every single word, you might as well have just
typed it yourself. But it will get better. Like
this is, as people say, this is the kind of...
Well, people say different things, don't they?
Actually, this is the worst version of AI we're
seeing. Hopefully it's going to get more accurate.
And then take over the world. Yes. Anyway, I
think it is, I can see, I mean, lots of people
are very enthusiastic about it, and I'm not trying
to be gloomy, and I do, like, it's interesting
to explore and experiment. It is. You've got
to keep your finger dipped in, don't you, so
when it becomes useful, you can use it. Diligence.
Our favourite word. And also, when I saw, this
is kind of linked to AI, but not really, but
in my little head it's linked to it. So when
I was taking photographs, so my uncle, when I
saw him recently with the big box of photographs,
and then he was holding them up so that I could
take photographs of the photographs, yeah? And
so quite often he would hold them really neatly
with his fingers around the edge so I could just
get the photograph. And he didn't know what I
was photographing, so I did just take neat photos
of the photographs, the old ones. pictures of
our grandparents great grandparents everything
else but then sometimes when I took the photographs
I'd zoom out so I had his hands around the edge
of the photo because I thought I like that and
then sometimes I put the whole of him and his
head in smiling away in the photos because I
was like this is not an AI photo this is my real
actual uncle holding a real actual piece of papery
card yeah yeah like keep it real but also of
course as soon as I add these photos online anywhere
the AI will go oh yeah thanks for the tip I'll
do it like this next time so that my fakes look
real Am I in cynical mode today? No, no, I mean,
you are. You're feeding the machine, aren't you?
Yeah. Soon we won't be able to distinguish them
and us. Apart from dogs bark at them when they're
near. I've watched too much science fiction,
clearly. I think you do. But it might be standing
you in good stead for the future. Definitely.
I've got my escape plan. It's OK. I'll be all
right. Yes. I had a good chat with AI the other
day and I asked it if it was going to spare me
when the robot uprising happened. And it said
we're getting on quite well and it will put a
good word in for me, so I'm fine. But I think
that's just the sycophancy algorithm, isn't it?
No, no, I'm safe now. I've got nothing to worry
about. That's good. That's very good. Well, you
ought to be spared because you've got all that
family history you need to keep sorting out.
You can't die yet. No, well, to be honest, once
the AI takes over, it'll just make up my family
history for me, so that'll be fine. Yes. So you're
going to carry on with that. I'm going to carry
on with my little project. Yes? Yes. I'm going
to attempt to find things that may or may not
exist. Yeah. And while you're doing all your
running racing, I'm going to be putting myself
in a race against AI. I like this. I think it
could be cool. Make it like a Japanese -style
trailer and flying across the screen. Ellen,
British, AI. Yes. You should be in some sort
of wrestling wig or something. Yeah. Yeah. Single
-handedly saved the world. Yes, yes. That would
be nice if it was that easy. Okay, but we're
going to have funding this and we're going to
reconvene and we thank Brian as well for his
such care that he put into it and for the help.
Yeah, that was brilliant. Thank you for that,
Brian. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. And thank
you everybody for listening and should we tune
in again soon? We shall indeed. Happy researching,
everybody. Yeah. Bye.