WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to Family Tree Talk. My name

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is Helen Tovey and with me is... Nathan Ward.

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Hello there. Hi Nathan, how are you? I'm alright,

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thank you. I'm full of busyness, but yeah, I'm

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good. And more importantly, how's your family

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history going? It's going better than it was

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last week. It's better? Well, I did terribly,

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didn't I, last week? I failed in my task to do

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the research journal or whatever you want to

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call it. Genealogy journal, because it rhymes.

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Genealogy journal! And I was a little bit upset

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with myself. Anyway, as soon as we finished last

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week, I went away and ordered myself a lovely

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new journal, which I can now show you, but I

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can't show anyone else. It's beautiful. So it's

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a beautiful burgundy colour which just says history.

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It's got an elastic band, so if you... tucks

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any little useful things in there they don't

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get lost it's hardback i've got stationary envy

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it's all bad it's nice it's nice it actually

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took me longer i ordered this online and then

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the following day i went to a popular bookstore

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and they had an entire two or three shelves full

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of notebooks and i was like oh my god i need

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all of them but that wasn't the point that's

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not why we bought it it wasn't just to have more

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it was so we could do our little journal thing

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And have you filled in anything in your journal

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yet? Oh, I have. I've done a mission statement,

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which is the most pretentious bit of writing

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I've ever done in my life. And then I've also

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done my first week of family history. Wow. We're

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going to talk about this in a moment. First of

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all, I want to tell you that although we're going

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to be just chatting as normal for the minute,

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in a little while we're going to be joined by

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a very special guest. We don't often have a guest,

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do we? Not recently. No, not recently. And shall

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I tell you who it is? Please do. OK, so it's

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Dr. Sophie Kay. Lovely. Yeah, very, very cool.

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So we're going to speak about that later on in

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the podcast. For the moment, we're going to catch

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up with Nathan and find out. how he's getting

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on. And I have got a bit of family history news

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just to do with me, my own little cliffhanger

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that I want to share with you, Nathan, and anyone

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who's willing to listen to it. So if there's

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time for that, I'd love to share that. Anyway,

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so tell me about your genealogy journal and are

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you brave enough to read out this mission statement?

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I mean, I am, but I don't want anybody to judge

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me because it's pretentious. It's so pretentious.

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But I thought I need something that any time

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that I'm lost in my ways, don't know what I'm

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doing, I can refer to this mission statement

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and be like... that's what i'm here for that's

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why i'm doing it so i needed it to be like a

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bit a bit more umphy and g me up again i apologize

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so mission statement this is my family history

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log each week i will report in not with perfection

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but with progress i am uncovering the lives that

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came before mine one detail at a time this journal

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is my space to gather what i found to reflect

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on what it means and to decide where to go next

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i will capture both discoveries and questions

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knowing that each will move me forward. This

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is more than research. It's connection, understanding

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and legacy. And I will keep going. That is awesome.

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It's nonsense. It's not nonsense. It literally

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is like a little distillation of what we're all

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about when we do our family history. And you've

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put it there in a few words. We're all going

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to want to copy those words. If we copy them,

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can we put a little statement going, put it in

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quote marks and put Nathan Ward. 26. Yes. I was

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literally writing it and I thought, right, what

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I want to happen is in like three or four generations

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time, somebody finds this book in my family.

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What was he like? And then you get this really

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pretentious waffle. It's not pretentious. It's

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fantastic. I just love it. I love it because

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it's precise and it's hard working and it's heartwarming.

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It's everything. Yeah, well, thank you. It's

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just there to push me forward, basically. Like,

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in case I forget what I'm doing or what the moats

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are writing this book thing. Yeah, so I've only

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done one week's entry. I sort of, I wasn't sure

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whether I was just going to write it all in a

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summary, like one big long summary or what. As

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it is, I've put it into four categories for some

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reason. So at the top, I've got the date range

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for the one week I'm working on. And then I've

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broken the page down into mission, discoveries,

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story and questions. So good, Nathan. It's so

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good. Oh, man, I'm such a geek. No, you're brilliant.

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Keep going then. Tell me more. Literally, I'm

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going to read this out. It's working well for

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me because now me talking on the podcast is actually

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just me reading this log to you. Brilliant. So

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my mission was to find the death dates for the

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three remaining two -time great -grandparents,

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starting with Joseph G. Ward. Right. So that

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was my mission. So I went away to do that, and

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the discoveries I got from that are that I still

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don't know his death date. I followed the trail

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on the 1911 and 1921 censuses, and from that,

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I discovered that his wife, Mary Ann Blackburn,

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died in 1916, and... On one of the censuses,

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it said they had a three... Oh, on the 1911 census.

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I've written it down. What a good lad. On the

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1911 census, they had a three -year -old boy

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called Clifford. So he lost his mum when he was

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eight. I was like, oh, this is really sad. So

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it created a bit more of a story for me. I then

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found Clifford on the 1921 census. This is where

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it gets interesting. This is why I haven't found

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the death date, because I got lost on this path.

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I found Clifford on the 1921 census with his

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dad, Joseph, but obviously not his mum. But Joseph

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had remarried someone called Lena, L -E -N -A,

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is that correctly pronounced? I don't know. Lena

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Ward, and he was living with her and her kids.

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So I'd got a new marriage out of this, which

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I hadn't been looking for, but found because

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I'd traced a child. So that was quite interesting.

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Then from that, I found that Lena was also previously

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married, having obviously had kids. And I found

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her surname was Hurst, but then her original

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surname was Reed. So I found lots of stuff about

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her past and her parents. I actually, she was

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really clear to find, like literally as soon

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as I've got her name in, I found stuff about

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her childhood and her parents and it just started

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going back and back. So I started tracing somebody

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that wasn't really on my direct line, but it

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was helping me flesh out the story for Clifford,

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which is cool. And then, so that was the story

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part. Oh, the story part is, Leonard was a Hearst,

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which I got from the kids' names. I found her

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wedding certificate. She was born Reid, and I

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found her parents too. And I also found out that

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Clifford died in 1926, so he was really young

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when he died. And then the questions, which is

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what I will follow up for this week, were find

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the death record for Clifford, and obviously

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still find the death record for Joseph. And in

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and amongst all that, I found out a reference

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where Joseph had enlisted perhaps in 1886. So

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that's obviously then involving, is it fold something

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or other? Well, it might not do, but it could

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do. Fold three is the Ancestry military records.

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So that has also given me an idea that I'm going

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to start using tags because I keep on getting

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these people that are war related. So I'm going

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to tag him with a war notice. And I'm going to

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do that with everybody else who appears with

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a war -related paraphernalia. And then when I've

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got enough, I'll sign up for it and be like,

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right, I'll spend a week. But also before you

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totally, totally agree with the tags, totally

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agree with you making a list of everyone related

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to war stuff and military stuff. But so did you

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say 1886? Oh, yes. Yes. So I think what you need

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to be really clear before you go signing up for

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anything is just check which country this person

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is serving in. Be really careful of the dates

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that they're serving. And then before you sign

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up for something, see which record collections

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that subscription is going to provide you with.

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So I would naturally go to find my past if I

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was going to be looking for broad brush military

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starting point. So you might find that's better

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than. than full three because full three is renowned

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for being a bit more american i think whereas

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and the lots of the british military records

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from q digitized you for that earlier period

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pre -first world war or from my past so it's

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it's like getting getting lots and lots of data

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before you start spending your money okay cool

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yeah i just i literally just thought it'd be

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better for me instead of dipping in with with

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one person i think your tactics great yeah because

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It's not necessary for my current mission, but

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it's interesting, isn't it? And I'd quite like

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to know. So I'm going to start, like I say, using

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tags a bit better on Ancestry and mark them with,

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like, has military records. And then when the

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time comes where I've got a gap where I want

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to do that research, I can be like, right, I'll

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just look for that tag and see who comes up.

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And I could be entirely wrong. A full tree could

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be just what you want. But it's just worth knowing

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that. So that one guy in particular, he definitely

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has a document that's saved on Fold3, but obviously

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it doesn't let me see it. So we will see. But

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yeah, I quite like my little journal because

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it's obviously, it's just given me all that information.

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It's clear enough that I can tell you and now

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you know what I've been up to. And one more kind

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of nitty gritty bit, because we're all about

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the nitty gritty when it comes to this podcast.

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So a whole week, so I've been doing my genealogy

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journal and... At the end of the week, I write

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a summary of what I've done that week. But for

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me and my poor, poor memory, there's no way I

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can remember for a whole week in my head what

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I want to include in my journal. So I have to

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have a little spider plan on my map or whatever

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you want to call it. And I just jot down a few

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words. And then at the end of the week, I'll

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write down my summary. So how are you keeping,

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have you got it on a separate piece of paper

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or how are you keeping track of what you're writing

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about? I mean, that does worry me now you've

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said that out loud because that's very, very

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true. in my head originally i was going to make

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notes as i went but i'll be honest all that research

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that i just did then was done over the course

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of like two days so it was all really fresh in

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my head and i just put it down at the end of

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the second day if i'm doing it over a week that

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could be a problem so yeah i mean i do i make

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notes in my other notebooks so prop perhaps i'll

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be fine then yes you can see one central place

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you can just lift it off there and turn it into

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its legacy format It just felt very tidy this

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week with that one. Of course, it was done in

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such a short space of time, but it's going to

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be useful. I did have a few weird questions and

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I feel like I've answered them myself, but it

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was interesting that they came in my head, so

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I'll say them and sound stupid. When I found

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this Lena, is it Lena? L -E -N -A? It might be

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Lena. Lena, Lena, anyway. If anybody knows, then

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tell us. Email in with a voice note so we can

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hear your voice or spell it out. Whether it's

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Lena, Lena, Lena. Lena, yeah, could be. I think

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Lena. It sounds nice. Anyway, when she appeared

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on the census, she's obviously appeared as a

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ward because she's married Joseph George. But

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then I found her children's name out because

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they were still obviously having the father's

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surname still. So then in my head, I'm like,

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right, her surname's Hurst, but that's her married

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name. I already know the answer, so I don't know

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why I'm saying this, but my reaction was, should

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I have put her in my family tree at the point

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she interacts with my family so she would have

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been a Hurst? But actually, it's that silly.

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It should be her birth name, which we read. So

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I've answered it already, but it just struck

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me as interesting. It is interesting. I know

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it's stupid, but... It's not stupid, but also

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it's the thing that when we find something, it's

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a bit of evidence, isn't it? And then a subsequent

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piece of evidence might overturn that. So, for

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instance, let's say you didn't know she'd had

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a previous name before Hearst. You might enter

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her as Hearst. And then all of us need to kind

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of keep flexible -minded enough that when we

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do get further information, we're not so, like,

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bound with the previous facts we found. We can

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go, hey, I'm going to... I thought that was her

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maiden name, but it turns out it's not. She was

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married before. And so I'm going to change it

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to her married name or her maiden name. Sorry.

00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:37.000
And also, if you found her and you know she's

00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.240
got kids and you're probably hazarding a guess

00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.960
that that Hurst isn't her maiden name. But if

00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:44.799
that's the only name you've got so far, I think

00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.500
that's perfectly reasonable to enter that in

00:12:47.500 --> 00:12:50.259
her surname slot. And you're like, I know this

00:12:50.259 --> 00:12:51.820
is not her maiden name, but I'm entering it here

00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:53.799
because this is the best I've got. And it will

00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.259
help orientate me for future research. I do want

00:12:57.259 --> 00:12:59.419
to pick this up again. I've got a better clue

00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:01.960
having a surname rather than just a blank, a

00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:04.240
kind of false blank. You do have some information

00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:05.980
about that surname. It's just not the actual

00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.940
maiden name. Yeah. OK, that's cool. I mean, I

00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:13.860
did find her birth name of Reed. It was just

00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.720
a little oddity at the time. It's fascinating,

00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.480
though, as well, isn't it? Had I not looked for

00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.720
the death date of Joseph, I already had him and

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.120
his wife Mary on my tree and I could have happily

00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.860
carried on going backwards. Yeah. I wouldn't

00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:30.299
have known this story about her dying and then

00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:34.000
him remarrying and then his son dying at a very

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.240
young age. It's a massive story and it's like

00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:39.679
it wasn't evident from the evidence that I'd

00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.820
previously got. And it's only from like a little

00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:44.960
bit of tangential research that I'm like, oh,

00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.879
wow. This is completely different now. It's cool.

00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:51.559
It's what I wanted, wasn't it? I was saying the

00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:52.759
other week I was getting a bit bored of just

00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.620
facts and suddenly a little bit more detail and

00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:58.100
mystery comes out in the most simplest bit of

00:13:58.100 --> 00:14:01.000
research. So that's cool. It's very, very cool.

00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:04.580
It's very, very cool. And it is endlessly the

00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:08.519
stories, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really

00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.919
good. I've got one more little rant to do for

00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.539
you. Oh, yeah. So this woman was born Reed and

00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:19.370
in... In the earliest example of me finding her,

00:14:19.509 --> 00:14:23.230
her name is clear as day, written as R -E -E

00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:27.570
-D, as her appearance. And it's not scrolly,

00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:29.809
it's very neat, very tidy, and it says read.

00:14:30.029 --> 00:14:33.830
But then on all subsequent documents, it's read

00:14:33.830 --> 00:14:38.289
R -E -A -D. It's annoying, isn't it? I didn't

00:14:38.289 --> 00:14:40.610
know what to do because the first document looked

00:14:40.610 --> 00:14:44.129
so official that that was how it was spelt with

00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:47.299
the double E. I don't know. I'll be quiet. So

00:14:47.299 --> 00:14:51.379
you're just wondering how to record in your tree

00:14:51.379 --> 00:14:54.019
and you're wondering, let's say you save down

00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:55.759
documents, you find census documents or whatever

00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:57.980
about them, and you're wondering how to label

00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:00.019
up those files, how to spell the surname. Is

00:15:00.019 --> 00:15:02.539
that what your concern is? Yeah, I guess, and

00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:04.440
I guess because it links to hints, et cetera,

00:15:04.460 --> 00:15:08.000
as well. If a surname is actually R -E -E -D

00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.080
and I put it as R -E -A -D, then maybe I'm getting

00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:15.419
other people, but equally... I don't know. I

00:15:15.419 --> 00:15:17.299
just want it to be recorded accurately, don't

00:15:17.299 --> 00:15:21.860
I? It's just interesting that it changes so quickly

00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:25.139
in my mind. Well, I say quickly. I'm looking

00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:26.700
at a bunch of documents. Within one person's

00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:28.600
lifetime. They can't even be consistent within

00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:30.539
their own life. Is that what you mean? Yeah,

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.779
it's just so... Yeah, I think I need to just

00:15:33.779 --> 00:15:36.200
be quiet. It's just so solid in the way that

00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:38.840
her name was Reed. It was like, this is correct.

00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.220
So if I record it as Reed... But then all subsequent

00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:45.240
documents are R -E -A -D. Am I going to confuse

00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:50.320
myself by not recording both names on her entry

00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.799
if I come back to it at a later date, for example?

00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:55.139
Or do I need to just rely on the fact that I'm

00:15:55.139 --> 00:15:56.899
sensible enough to know that read could be spelled

00:15:56.899 --> 00:15:59.740
differently? So I think having some sort of record

00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:01.419
so that you don't confuse yourself in the future

00:16:01.419 --> 00:16:04.179
is a good idea. So things you could do, you could

00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:07.659
add into the notes about that. that there's the

00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:11.220
alternate surnames when you download copies of

00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:12.940
census documents and any other documents that

00:16:12.940 --> 00:16:14.240
you find about them and you put them in your

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.980
folder and you're labeling a file name you could

00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:19.580
either just say right i'm going to use for the

00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:22.179
file name i'm going to spell it exactly as it's

00:16:22.179 --> 00:16:24.659
spelled in that document and those two spellings

00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.399
aren't so far away that it's going they're going

00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.159
to miss file dramatically you're going to be

00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:30.039
able to see when you open up your folder of documents

00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.100
you're going to see them filed fairly close to

00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:35.919
each other you could even include a tag which

00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.919
is called read read with the two different spellings

00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.299
so you tag everyone who's a potential victim

00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:44.259
of the spelling mistake and mary evans who's

00:16:44.259 --> 00:16:47.539
a really organized um researcher she says she

00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:49.799
just plumps for one spelling when she's writing

00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.600
copying down all her file names so even if the

00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.220
files so that then she's she's not over complicating

00:16:56.220 --> 00:16:58.139
it herself just plump for one thing and it might

00:16:58.139 --> 00:17:00.120
be that you want to change it subsequently to

00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.019
something else but it's a kind of it's a small

00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:07.039
detail isn't it It is, but I'm glad you've said

00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.599
that. It makes me feel less silly. No, it's not

00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.200
silly. It's frustrating and niggly, and there

00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:13.900
isn't a perfect solution. So I would do the read

00:17:13.900 --> 00:17:17.940
-read tag, because then it makes you easy. Because

00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:20.140
half the thing is, with family history, is we're

00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:21.920
finding so much information that we have a slightly

00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.059
worried feeling at the back of our mind that

00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:26.000
we might not be able to find something in the

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.740
future. And it's a waste of time looking for

00:17:28.740 --> 00:17:31.259
things. It's been unnecessarily long looking

00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:33.400
for things, isn't it? It is, and obviously...

00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.279
there's a potential of there being somebody else

00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:41.160
with the Reid surname in that way, and it's actually

00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.380
not her. And with Ancestry, you'll have noticed

00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:46.700
that you can, I think you can record an alternate

00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:51.160
name. Yes. So you can do that as well. So that

00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.119
hopefully won't mislead anyone else who's looking

00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.660
at your tree and won't cause you to get wrong

00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:02.359
hints. It will keep the kind of funnel open to

00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.029
both possibilities. Yes, that sounds fab. Cool.

00:18:06.269 --> 00:18:09.089
So that's largely my research done for the last

00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:12.309
week. Well, Nathan, if me and anyone listening

00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:14.970
to the podcast was here in a room with you, we'd

00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:16.930
all be going, clapping our hands really, really

00:18:16.930 --> 00:18:19.569
loud. I just love your genealogy journal. I love

00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:23.950
your subcategories in it. I love your massive

00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:26.430
sweeping statement at the start of it to set

00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:31.299
the scene. I love it all. Embarrassing. Can I

00:18:31.299 --> 00:18:33.579
just check, do you fill it in using our favourite

00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:39.220
pen? I do indeed, yes. The V -Ball 0 .7 by Skylet.

00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.140
It's excellent, yes. Such a smooth write. We're

00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:45.099
not sponsored by this pen, we just love it. We

00:18:45.099 --> 00:18:47.240
just love it and it's available in all good supermarkets.

00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.579
Yes, and I think it makes you think better because

00:18:52.579 --> 00:18:53.980
you're doing your best handwriting. It brings

00:18:53.980 --> 00:18:56.019
out the best in you, doesn't it? Yeah, there's

00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:57.779
just something creative about this pen. I don't

00:18:57.779 --> 00:19:00.109
know what it is. I lost mine for a while and

00:19:00.109 --> 00:19:03.890
my notes deteriorated drastically. I don't think

00:19:03.890 --> 00:19:06.470
I'd have been able to carry on. Yes. Well, was

00:19:06.470 --> 00:19:16.509
it getting like that? Go on then, tell us about

00:19:16.509 --> 00:19:20.890
your cliffhanger. So I touched on it briefly.

00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:24.250
So it's my great granny's uncle and I found him

00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:27.630
in 1896 stealing a ton of coal. And I was like.

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.700
my first criminal. I was so flippant and facetious

00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:34.740
about it. It felt like a little bit of a drama.

00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:36.839
I said, oh, goodness, a bit of a frizzle in my

00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:40.400
family tree to have a criminal. And then we finished

00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.259
the podcast, went back to work and I carried

00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:43.759
on researching. And then, you know, when you

00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.759
suddenly start feeling really guilty because

00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.619
you've made a silly comment about someone who's

00:19:47.619 --> 00:19:49.700
going through a really bad time in their life.

00:19:49.779 --> 00:19:53.819
Yeah. So I went back to the records and in 1894,

00:19:54.099 --> 00:20:00.000
then His little baby, Henry, died. Yeah. And

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.359
then about a fortnight later, his wife died.

00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.200
And I was like, oh, God. So now we have Henry.

00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:08.839
I go scroll forward in time two years to 1896

00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.559
when he's stealing the coal. And I have not Henry,

00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.799
James. And I have a completely different view

00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.500
of him because he's now a widower with a whole

00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:20.339
bunch of little kids. Yeah. And he's trying to

00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:23.980
look after them. Keep a job. Yeah. He's going

00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:27.869
through a really tough time. So I felt bad about

00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:30.190
that. So I carried on trying to piece his life

00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:32.710
together and find out what was happening. And

00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:36.410
by... Late 1901, he gets married. So that's really

00:20:36.410 --> 00:20:40.650
nice. Yeah. And in August 1902, he has a little

00:20:40.650 --> 00:20:45.369
baby. And the little baby is called Mary Jane.

00:20:46.789 --> 00:20:48.789
They're all called Mary Jane in my family. Anyway,

00:20:48.910 --> 00:20:51.049
the little baby's mum is called Mary Ann. The

00:20:51.049 --> 00:20:53.109
little baby's called Mary Jane. And Mary Jane

00:20:53.109 --> 00:20:55.829
was the name of my James's first wife. So I'm

00:20:55.829 --> 00:20:58.529
like, did he name his baby with his second wife

00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:01.049
after his first wife? It kind of feels very possible.

00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:06.289
Yeah. So he has a little baby and then I was

00:21:06.289 --> 00:21:09.069
just rummaging around trying to build it forward.

00:21:09.210 --> 00:21:11.569
So now we're getting into quite distant territory

00:21:11.569 --> 00:21:15.349
because this is my great granny's uncle's second

00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:18.250
wife's baby. So it's a half relationship to me.

00:21:18.349 --> 00:21:21.630
So on the scheme of DNA things, I'm like, OK,

00:21:21.710 --> 00:21:23.750
we are getting into the weeds a little bit because

00:21:23.750 --> 00:21:27.630
this great granny's uncle's second wife's baby

00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:32.769
is the same generation as my great granny. but

00:21:32.769 --> 00:21:35.809
it's a half to me that was my great granny they're

00:21:35.809 --> 00:21:38.329
both so their shared ancestor is their granny

00:21:38.329 --> 00:21:41.230
so it's my shared ancestor with any of their

00:21:41.230 --> 00:21:43.309
future dna descendants so if i scroll forward

00:21:43.309 --> 00:21:46.670
to this little baby's great grandchildren i think

00:21:46.670 --> 00:21:50.869
i worked it out that me and this little baby's

00:21:50.869 --> 00:21:53.690
great grandchildren would be half fourth cousins

00:21:53.690 --> 00:21:56.430
so i'm like okay we're right out on the edges

00:21:56.430 --> 00:21:58.730
of when whether autosomal dna could actually

00:21:58.730 --> 00:22:00.890
help me yeah because by the time you get to your

00:22:00.890 --> 00:22:02.819
fourth cousins you're going to not match most

00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:04.420
of them. And by the time you get to a half -fourth

00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:06.380
cousin, I'm guessing, I don't know about half

00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:08.740
-fourth cousins, it's going to be even less likely.

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.200
Anyway, I had to find out about her because I

00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:13.859
was trying to find out about my poor widower,

00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:20.640
great -great -uncle or whatever. So I found the

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.220
little baby and she's travelling to America,

00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.960
aged three. Neither of her parents are there.

00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:30.470
And she's travelling with a 21 -year -old whose

00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:33.089
surname is Gary, Bridget Gary. And I was like,

00:22:33.190 --> 00:22:35.849
I knew that the little baby's mum's maiden name

00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:39.670
was Gary. So three -year -old little baby, baby

00:22:39.670 --> 00:22:43.109
Mary Jane, is travelling with a 21 -year -old

00:22:43.109 --> 00:22:46.519
auntie to America. They're going to go and stay

00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.960
with the three -year -old baby's mother. So I'm

00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.539
like, what's happened here? And the three -year

00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:55.819
-old baby's father has paid for the trip. So

00:22:55.819 --> 00:22:58.079
to me, I'm like, I've got so many questions.

00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.940
So the mother has clearly left sometime between

00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:04.420
1902 and 1905. She's left her baby in the care

00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:07.279
of her little sister and gone to America. The

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.069
dad... is paying for the trip, but the record

00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:12.549
doesn't say that the baby's going to her parents.

00:23:12.650 --> 00:23:14.849
The record strictly says she's going just to

00:23:14.849 --> 00:23:16.569
her mother. So I'm like, has their relationship

00:23:16.569 --> 00:23:19.930
broken down? I'm just like, I'm all over the

00:23:19.930 --> 00:23:22.069
place. It literally feels like a soap opera and

00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:24.190
I'm waiting for the next episode. Wow, that's

00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:25.950
a lot of information. I'm quite impressed how

00:23:25.950 --> 00:23:27.450
you've actually managed to piece all that together.

00:23:28.269 --> 00:23:30.410
Well, it's not to my credit at all. It's this

00:23:30.410 --> 00:23:35.289
incredible American passenger list. Right. Giving

00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:38.289
loads and loads of clues all in one go. It's

00:23:38.289 --> 00:23:40.329
just traumatic though, isn't it? It changes the

00:23:40.329 --> 00:23:42.470
context of everything. One document can just

00:23:42.470 --> 00:23:46.410
ruin or totally... Upend. Yeah, upend at everything

00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:50.490
you're thinking. So I'm still in pursuit of that.

00:23:50.549 --> 00:23:53.049
And so in my genealogy journal, let me find it,

00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:54.970
which is not at all beautiful like yours. Mine

00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:58.190
is a grey paperback one. Also, I've written it

00:23:58.190 --> 00:24:01.519
at the front of my genealogy journal. Yes. So

00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:03.940
I'm the opposite of you, Nathan. I've just written

00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:08.299
why. So my version of your fantastic, enviable

00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:11.339
mission statement is to keep a diary of my genealogy

00:24:11.339 --> 00:24:15.660
rated things each week. That's it. It's to the

00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:17.740
point. It's exact. It's not pretentious. I like

00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:22.089
it. But it's not very, it's not very, you know,

00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:25.150
like Henry V when they're going into battle and

00:24:25.150 --> 00:24:26.869
getting everyone's blood up to get them to work

00:24:26.869 --> 00:24:28.450
on the project. It's not really like that. It's

00:24:28.450 --> 00:24:30.950
a bit prosaic and boring. Not saber rattling.

00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:34.269
It's not saber rattling. Not at all. Anyway,

00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:36.170
so I have been keeping it. I have been having

00:24:36.170 --> 00:24:39.529
fun. Why am I looking here even? Because it's

00:24:39.529 --> 00:24:40.789
what my head's like. I've forgotten why I was

00:24:40.789 --> 00:24:43.210
looking in it. You were telling us about your

00:24:43.210 --> 00:24:46.509
coal dude. My coal dude. I think I finished with

00:24:46.509 --> 00:24:49.079
the coal dude. Yes. Sorry about that. Complete

00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.779
brain crash. This is why I need to write everything

00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:55.700
down. Much like me. This is exactly why you need

00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:59.900
to write it down without any delay. Just about

00:24:59.900 --> 00:25:01.960
life in general. Do you know what? I think we're

00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.140
going to have to stop our waffle in a moment.

00:25:04.180 --> 00:25:06.460
But before we do, I've got some news for you,

00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:09.900
which I think is it's it's exciting because it

00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.740
shows what's possible. But it might make you

00:25:11.740 --> 00:25:14.940
a little bit jealous. I'm already feeling what

00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:17.720
this is going to be. So, yeah, go on, go for

00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.359
it. OK, so we have a lovely podcast listener

00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.400
called Neil. And if anyone has been listening

00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:24.880
to more than one episode of the podcast, they

00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.460
know that Nathan and I sometimes talk about our

00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:30.519
ancestry tree scores. We know that Nathan is

00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:34.539
annoyingly hovering at 9 .9 and he's just waiting

00:25:34.539 --> 00:25:37.960
to push himself over the finish line to get to

00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.440
the elite score. Yeah. And guess what Neil's

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.460
done? Has he beaten me to it? He's beaten you

00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:46.420
to it. He's only gone and got the elite star.

00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:47.980
And what happens is you actually get a little

00:25:47.980 --> 00:25:52.119
yellow star next to the word elite. Oh, I need

00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.640
this. Yes. And then Neil, because he's such a

00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:58.799
generous soul, he shared with me a secret about

00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.539
how you do this. Oh, go on then. This sounds

00:26:01.539 --> 00:26:04.480
good. Yes. Well, it does sound good, but it also

00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.819
made me feel a little bit cheesed off. Okay.

00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.980
Yeah. So he said that he... He wrote in to us

00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:14.660
a while ago, and what he did was, to scroll back,

00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:16.700
so with Ancestry, you pay for your Ancestry subscription.

00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:19.140
You can also pay for this thing called Pro Tools,

00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:21.640
and it will give you some extra tools and functions

00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.759
for working on your family history when you're

00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.279
using Ancestry. You have to have it in conjunction

00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.700
with some sort of other paid Ancestry membership.

00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:31.599
You can't just have the Pro Tools by themselves.

00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:34.980
So Pro Tools costs £7 .99 a month. You pay it

00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:36.680
month by month, so you could pay for one month.

00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:39.980
And then you can cancel it again. And then six

00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:42.779
months later or a year later or some people have

00:26:42.779 --> 00:26:44.140
it all the time because it's really, really good

00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:47.559
for DNA. But we're going to that now. Anyway,

00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.200
so he got Pro Tools for a month. He downloaded

00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:52.259
all the because it gives you millions of it tells

00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:53.900
you all your mistakes, millions and millions

00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:56.140
of mistakes. And he had 3000 people on his tree.

00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.000
So he did have a lot of duplicates. He worked

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:02.799
with all his duplicates super methodically, got

00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.559
rid of them all, checked in with his ancestry

00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.759
tree. And he had got his elite score because

00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.819
he had solved all the problems. Yeah. Nice. Nice.

00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.339
Because he is a wise chap like us, he then stopped

00:27:16.339 --> 00:27:18.980
his Pro Tools subscription because he didn't

00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:21.200
want to just be paying £7 .99 a month if he wasn't

00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.160
going to be actually using those Pro Tools. And

00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.079
I completely think it's a great idea to do that

00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.440
because you could get a bottle of wine. Or if

00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.000
you're like Nathan, that won't afford you a bottle

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.240
of wine. But if you're like me, it would do.

00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:37.440
But anyway. But anyway. Back to Neil. So then

00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.339
he carried on doing his family history, checked

00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:42.700
on his tree score, and his tree score had slipped

00:27:42.700 --> 00:27:46.460
from elite back down to 9 .9, and all those duplicates

00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:48.500
had come back in again. So this is where it's

00:27:48.500 --> 00:27:51.359
a bit swizzy, because if you don't have Pro Tools

00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:57.240
on, then his experience was that the duplicates...

00:27:57.529 --> 00:28:01.369
somehow reactivated themselves and his you having

00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:03.430
identified that they weren't in fact duplicates

00:28:03.430 --> 00:28:06.289
they were just ancestors with similar names um

00:28:06.289 --> 00:28:10.410
the algorithm you know reports to you um that

00:28:10.410 --> 00:28:13.309
they are seemingly duplicates and so then that

00:28:13.309 --> 00:28:16.829
demoted his tree score to 9 .9 so then he is

00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:19.069
now face of the predicament if he wants to keep

00:28:19.069 --> 00:28:21.890
a consistent elite score he's going to have to

00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:25.839
keep with his frontal subscription of £7 .99

00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.440
a month. But he decided, I asked him about it,

00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:28.940
and he said, no, he's not going to do that. He's

00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:31.200
just going to know that he's done due diligence,

00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:35.099
he's assessed every potential problem that has

00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:36.880
been flagged up to him, and they aren't problems,

00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:39.980
and he's not going to pay his money. But I thought

00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:41.619
it was interesting. So the relevance to you,

00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:45.700
Nathan, is if you were willing to pay one month's

00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:48.619
of Pro Tools subscription, go through all those

00:28:48.619 --> 00:28:50.240
duplicates, and I think that could budge you

00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.279
over to Elite. Yeah, I think it's definitely

00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.279
worth a shot. I don't like what you're saying,

00:28:56.299 --> 00:28:57.920
though, about the whole it's almost like pay

00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.839
to win almost, isn't it there? If you have to

00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:02.960
be subscribed for it to actually still register.

00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:05.940
Yeah, I mean, this is only a survey of one person,

00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:09.420
so it could be wrong. It could be like my my

00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:11.779
tree school has gone up and down, like presumably

00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:13.940
if I've added more and more people and haven't

00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:15.940
been really great about adding loads of sources

00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:19.630
to them. you know potentially as we do our research

00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:21.490
it is a bit of a movable feast isn't it it's

00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:24.069
not if we if we continue to touch our research

00:29:24.069 --> 00:29:27.109
it's going to continue to change so it could

00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:30.170
we could have made he could have excuse me neil

00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:31.730
but i mean you could have made a mistake about

00:29:31.730 --> 00:29:33.509
this so we we need to be clear it's just one

00:29:33.509 --> 00:29:35.730
person's experience but neil's a very careful

00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:38.109
researcher and it's all seemed to check out what

00:29:38.109 --> 00:29:41.170
he said yeah no that sounds good i mean i think

00:29:41.170 --> 00:29:44.210
for me i'm i'm teaching between 9 .9 and 9 .8

00:29:44.210 --> 00:29:48.160
so as i add more people it'll drop And then I'll

00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.039
do a few little bits and it goes up quite quickly.

00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:52.960
But, you know, it would be awesome to reach elite.

00:29:53.019 --> 00:29:56.240
I'm not going to lie. I'd love that. It doesn't

00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:57.859
matter at the end of the day, does it? Like what

00:29:57.859 --> 00:29:59.599
you're saying about Neil, should he stay with

00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.640
Pro Tools just to get the elite? For that 0 .1,

00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:04.740
it's not worth it, is it really? It's good that

00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:08.119
he's done it. It's brilliant. But just knowing

00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.779
yourself. I'll pay £7 .99 every month just so

00:30:11.779 --> 00:30:13.700
I can know this. Get a gold star. It's quite

00:30:13.700 --> 00:30:15.660
expensive, gold stars, isn't it? It is, yeah.

00:30:15.859 --> 00:30:19.420
But, I mean. Great to get it once at least. So

00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:21.500
maybe I'll try that. When I've got a bit of a

00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:24.220
gap in my research, I'll be like, right, I'll

00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:26.740
spend a month tidying. Although it shouldn't

00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:27.759
take me a month, should it? Because I've got

00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:31.180
less people on my tree than Neil. So maybe that'll

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:35.019
be quite a good little task. And Neil did make

00:30:35.019 --> 00:30:37.359
another very good point. So one of the things

00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:39.539
which encourages people's tree score to be good

00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:42.640
is that you have sources attached to all of your

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.279
people and sources for all of the facts. You

00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.200
don't have kind of unverified information there.

00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:48.619
But because just because you attached a source

00:30:48.619 --> 00:30:50.779
to something, it could all be mumbo jumbo. You

00:30:50.779 --> 00:30:53.059
could have, you know, it doesn't necessarily

00:30:53.059 --> 00:30:55.119
mean you could accidentally attach your shopping

00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.579
list to a birth detail and the computer will

00:30:57.579 --> 00:30:59.700
think you've got a fact, you know, you've got

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:02.880
a source attached, couldn't you? Yeah. That sounds

00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.319
like a good hack, actually. I'm going to go do

00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.140
that. Yeah. I am not going to go do that. So

00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:10.759
it's lots of things, as ever. To get it right,

00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.319
goodness, we try hard. I don't think it's probably

00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:15.059
a good job. People who don't do family history

00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:16.700
don't know how hard we try. Otherwise, they'd

00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:19.019
never want to get into it. Well, once it gets

00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.059
you hooked, that's it, though, isn't it? It all

00:31:22.059 --> 00:31:24.460
becomes important. Anyway, speaking of very,

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.980
very high standards and excellent research skills,

00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:29.019
shall we now talk to our very special guest?

00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:39.869
Let's do it. OK. So now, Nathan, I'm so excited

00:31:39.869 --> 00:31:43.029
to be introducing you to Dr. Sophie Kay. So just

00:31:43.029 --> 00:31:45.250
in case you need to know, Sophie has so many

00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:47.869
strings to her genealogical bow, including being

00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:49.950
a professional genealogist and geneticist at

00:31:49.950 --> 00:31:52.339
Chronicle. And what this means in the course

00:31:52.339 --> 00:31:54.460
of her working day, sometimes she's literally

00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:57.319
up to her elbows in the archives, wading through

00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.720
those famous dusty documents. And other times

00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.160
she's working on DNA projects for clients. So

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.359
it's literally everything. You can't believe

00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:05.980
the sort of things that Sophie has to get up

00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:09.500
to working as a professional genealogist. And

00:32:09.500 --> 00:32:12.200
of course, as she does this, she's going to encounter

00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.819
challenges. She's going to get stuck. Yeah. So

00:32:14.819 --> 00:32:17.319
even though she has all of that skill, all those

00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:19.720
skills and all that knowledge, she too gets stuck.

00:32:20.170 --> 00:32:22.009
what I think she can help us with. Sounds good

00:32:22.009 --> 00:32:24.950
to me. Yeah, because she can tell us what she

00:32:24.950 --> 00:32:27.490
does when she encounters those problems where

00:32:27.490 --> 00:32:30.369
she just, you know, most of us go, oh, I'm stuck.

00:32:30.470 --> 00:32:32.549
I've got a brick wall. But that's not good enough,

00:32:32.569 --> 00:32:33.910
is it? When you're a professional genealogist,

00:32:33.930 --> 00:32:36.109
you can't do that. You have to keep going. Yeah.

00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:40.529
So, Sophie, we're really, really hoping you can

00:32:40.529 --> 00:32:43.789
help us because, you know, brick walls are kind

00:32:43.789 --> 00:32:45.930
of, well, something we all have, aren't they,

00:32:45.990 --> 00:32:48.130
Nathan? They are indeed. I mean, that's the big

00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:51.490
question, isn't it? Like, We've all got to a

00:32:51.490 --> 00:32:53.509
point where we're stuck on our research. We don't

00:32:53.509 --> 00:32:56.289
know where to go or how far to get, sorry, how

00:32:56.289 --> 00:32:58.630
to get any further. Like, what is the best way

00:32:58.630 --> 00:33:01.269
to get further? Yeah, and I think it's that feeling,

00:33:01.349 --> 00:33:04.269
isn't it? That when, as you say, when you hit

00:33:04.269 --> 00:33:06.269
a brick wall, there's so many things going around

00:33:06.269 --> 00:33:08.329
our head because often, I think we've all seen

00:33:08.329 --> 00:33:10.650
it, the longer anyone does family history for,

00:33:10.750 --> 00:33:13.809
the more and more documents and evidence and

00:33:13.809 --> 00:33:17.069
items and thoughts and notes we accumulate. And

00:33:17.069 --> 00:33:20.079
getting to a point where we feel like we... are

00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.000
a little bit stuck and don't know where to go

00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.299
next even knowing where to start with that is

00:33:25.299 --> 00:33:29.599
potentially quite a big brick wall to tackle

00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.799
isn't it to sort of say well I mean do either

00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:34.799
of you have particular things you do at the moment

00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.000
you think like how do you know when you're stuck

00:33:37.549 --> 00:33:40.670
i guess for me i've got like um i've got a very

00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:43.150
rigid routine where i use the censuses and i

00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:45.250
write a list of the people in the censuses and

00:33:45.250 --> 00:33:48.430
then try and match them up so i'll take like

00:33:48.430 --> 00:33:51.529
i don't know um george joseph for example i'll

00:33:51.529 --> 00:33:54.710
take him and i'll be looking for him to appear

00:33:54.710 --> 00:33:56.410
in every census and i'll make a note of where

00:33:56.410 --> 00:33:58.890
he appears who he appears with and try and keep

00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:01.950
it as methodical as i can but I know I am looking

00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:04.710
in a limited pool in that respect because as

00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:06.369
soon as I leave that pool, I can't find them

00:34:06.369 --> 00:34:07.789
in the census. I start panicking. It's like,

00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:10.230
where do I go next? Oh, that makes so much sense.

00:34:10.269 --> 00:34:12.530
I think there's a lot of what you've described

00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:14.949
there, Nathan, that are very much for me the

00:34:14.949 --> 00:34:16.570
building blocks of how we problem solve because

00:34:16.570 --> 00:34:20.570
you talked about how you like to sort of systematise

00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:24.280
what you have, find order. amongst all of that

00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:26.119
vast amount of information that you've already

00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:29.619
got and then start to work out what you have

00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:32.119
looked at and haven't looked at it sounds like

00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:34.940
your list process is for you personally that's

00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:37.239
what it's achieving it's giving you order it's

00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.039
giving you structure and it's giving you a sense

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:42.789
of what you've already got And that can start

00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:44.929
to help you define what you might not have looked

00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:48.329
at and where the unknowns are in your problem.

00:34:48.449 --> 00:34:50.929
Is that sort of how it feels? Yeah, definitely.

00:34:51.050 --> 00:34:53.909
I feel like I want to create a timeline for each

00:34:53.909 --> 00:34:56.570
person. And obviously the census helps you give

00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:58.449
it gives you obviously 10 year blocks so you

00:34:58.449 --> 00:35:00.429
can get a little bit in between. But then it's

00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:02.570
right. Well, what's going on in between all those

00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:06.300
gaps? And it's how to find that. Oh, absolutely.

00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.480
I love it when people mention research gaps,

00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:10.599
because I always like to talk about fleshing

00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:12.659
out the narrative, because I know that for most

00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:14.619
of us as family historians, we didn't come to

00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:17.380
this to just get a list of names and dates and

00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:19.780
places. We want a nice fleshed out narrative

00:35:19.780 --> 00:35:22.599
that feels like we're capturing as much of that

00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.139
story as possible. And I think in terms of our

00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:27.699
research, when we can, as you say, timeline,

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:29.739
for example, I love timelines. Timelines are

00:35:29.739 --> 00:35:32.059
a great way of visualising what we've got, but

00:35:32.059 --> 00:35:34.579
also opening our eyes to what we don't have.

00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:39.139
yet and i tend to find if i timeline once i've

00:35:39.139 --> 00:35:41.539
got all of my evidence chronologically ordered

00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:43.840
and it's it's a nice timeline whatever way you

00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.760
want to do it um i think anyone stepping into

00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:48.440
timelining has to know that there's there's so

00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.300
many ways we can go about it if you love doing

00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:52.940
it on computer by all means go for it if like

00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:54.500
me actually even though i do loads of things

00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:56.300
by computer and i love doing things digitally

00:35:56.300 --> 00:35:58.199
when it comes to timelines i get a giant pad

00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.480
of paper and draw it out by hand on this huge

00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.639
pad of paper as soon as i've done that i then

00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.440
start looking at what the gaps are so i'm so

00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.219
glad you mentioned that because the gaps invite

00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:10.019
us to ask questions about what are the limits

00:36:10.019 --> 00:36:12.920
of our own knowledge at the moment what haven't

00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.679
we looked at and as we grow as researchers as

00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.039
well the ability to look at those gaps and say

00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:21.960
okay what's what might be in those gaps what

00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.929
record sets might there be out there that I simply

00:36:24.929 --> 00:36:27.610
haven't even realised are there yet that I can

00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:30.210
go and explore. And maybe those might complement

00:36:30.210 --> 00:36:32.150
what I've already got. They might help me problem

00:36:32.150 --> 00:36:34.369
solve in different ways and they might help me

00:36:34.369 --> 00:36:36.769
populate some of those gaps in the timeline.

00:36:37.090 --> 00:36:38.849
So, yes, I think actually what you've hit on

00:36:38.849 --> 00:36:40.590
there, Nathan, for me is one of the key elements

00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:42.809
of problem solving, which is finding a way to

00:36:42.809 --> 00:36:46.630
visualise what we already know in a way that

00:36:46.630 --> 00:36:49.250
speaks to us personally. And I think the way

00:36:49.250 --> 00:36:52.070
we visualise our evidence in an effective way

00:36:52.070 --> 00:36:55.150
might look different for... each researcher yeah

00:36:55.150 --> 00:36:58.269
definitely i agree for me it is just that because

00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:01.369
it's such a big gap the 10 year chunk you don't

00:37:01.369 --> 00:37:03.349
know what's going on and i was speaking to helen

00:37:03.349 --> 00:37:06.750
earlier and i've got an example where i've got

00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:09.809
a family where the mother dies i can't remember

00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:11.869
how i found out she dies but i couldn't trace

00:37:11.869 --> 00:37:15.269
the husband naturally on the census so i followed

00:37:15.269 --> 00:37:17.670
the son and when i found the son who was a three

00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:19.860
-year -old on the previous sensor The son was

00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:22.099
with the father, but the father had remarried

00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:23.960
and it's opened up an entirely new avenue and

00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:25.840
a completely different story to what I actually

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.760
had on paper before. So it's really cool to see.

00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:31.280
Oh, that is exciting. And what you've effectively

00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:33.099
done there from the sound of it, Nathan, is used

00:37:33.099 --> 00:37:35.460
a technique that's known as hasping, which is

00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:38.239
where we don't just follow one individual. You

00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.119
actually say, who are the people in the wider

00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:43.599
domestic unit or some other people that this

00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:45.840
individual I'm interested in might have a connection

00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.380
to. And by identifying where they are, sometimes

00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:52.280
we can reclaim the person that we've been finding

00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.119
so difficult to unearth. So, yeah, I think sometimes

00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:56.860
we can be using some of these techniques without

00:37:56.860 --> 00:37:59.199
even realising it as well. Yeah, it's really

00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:00.820
exciting as well, because I literally thought

00:38:00.820 --> 00:38:02.460
this guy was lost, I'm not going to find him.

00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:04.320
And then you feel so proud of yourself, don't

00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:05.780
you, when you're like, oh, I've got back on track

00:38:05.780 --> 00:38:08.460
now. Oh, the breakthroughs make the effort of

00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:10.909
tackling a brick wall. absolutely worthwhile

00:38:10.909 --> 00:38:12.989
i think it's it's sort of that thrill of the

00:38:12.989 --> 00:38:15.269
chase and then seeing you as you described it

00:38:15.269 --> 00:38:18.030
the research opening up into an avenue you might

00:38:18.030 --> 00:38:21.030
not have foreseen and then suddenly having that

00:38:21.030 --> 00:38:24.289
moment of realization of oh there's a whole dimension

00:38:24.289 --> 00:38:27.510
to this story that i hadn't conceived of before

00:38:27.510 --> 00:38:30.730
and now i've got the evidence of it let's explore

00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:33.809
it further we love new finds i think for the

00:38:33.809 --> 00:38:36.550
potential that they hold 100%. That's the exciting

00:38:36.550 --> 00:38:38.610
part, isn't it? Nathan and I, we're obsessed

00:38:38.610 --> 00:38:40.550
with the new dimensions, aren't we? That's kind

00:38:40.550 --> 00:38:43.630
of another door opening on a story. And it's

00:38:43.630 --> 00:38:46.530
like watching a TV series, isn't it? You think

00:38:46.530 --> 00:38:47.670
you know what's happening and then you're like,

00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:49.590
I can't believe what happened in the next episode.

00:38:49.769 --> 00:38:52.329
Because, you know, unexpected. Plot twist. Yes,

00:38:52.329 --> 00:38:54.170
a plot twist. And it happens the whole time with

00:38:54.170 --> 00:38:57.670
us. Every week, the tiniest detail can kind of

00:38:57.670 --> 00:38:59.769
result in a plot twist. So Nathan touched on

00:38:59.769 --> 00:39:01.949
there about not being able to find somebody.

00:39:01.989 --> 00:39:04.170
But sometimes, Sophie, we... We're searching

00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:06.230
for an ancestor and we come up with several people

00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:08.289
and we're like, we don't know which one of those

00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:10.369
search results are relevant to our ancestor.

00:39:10.409 --> 00:39:12.130
Are they all relevant to our ancestor? Are there

00:39:12.130 --> 00:39:16.130
a few people who are perhaps namesakes? So that

00:39:16.130 --> 00:39:19.030
can be quite a frustrating situation. It's not

00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:20.570
that you've got nothing. You've kind of got too

00:39:20.570 --> 00:39:22.030
much and you don't know what to do next. So what

00:39:22.030 --> 00:39:24.090
do you recommend if we find ourselves like that?

00:39:24.090 --> 00:39:26.869
Oh, picking your ancestor out of a crowd. Yes.

00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:29.880
That's the sort of classic genealogical conundrum,

00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:31.980
really. I think ultimately what we all end up

00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.539
having to do before we add a new individual to

00:39:34.539 --> 00:39:37.099
our family tree is say, is this really my ancestor

00:39:37.099 --> 00:39:38.960
or someone that just looks like them on paper?

00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:42.599
So I think first course of action, I think, for

00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:44.539
each and every one of us has to be return to

00:39:44.539 --> 00:39:46.980
what we already know. Every bit of our process

00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:49.300
in genealogy is based on saying, what do I have

00:39:49.300 --> 00:39:52.059
evidence for? What can I prove using whether

00:39:52.059 --> 00:39:54.440
that evidence happens to be oral history from

00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:57.360
the family or historical records or in some cases,

00:39:57.420 --> 00:39:59.380
you know, DNA evidence as well. But returning

00:39:59.380 --> 00:40:02.360
to what we know and have evidence for and saying,

00:40:02.380 --> 00:40:06.059
what's that evidence telling me? And using that

00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:08.500
as a sort of foundation for what we do next,

00:40:08.579 --> 00:40:11.139
because that evidence we already have, we're

00:40:11.139 --> 00:40:13.360
going to use as a point of comparison or many

00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.139
points of comparison against all of those individuals

00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:18.980
in your search results. So start by going back

00:40:18.980 --> 00:40:20.579
to what you already know. And I think sometimes

00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:22.840
that can help ground us because when you're faced

00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:24.260
with potentially, you know, a list of maybe,

00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:27.260
you know, let's say 10, 20, maybe even more namesakes

00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:29.989
and you're thinking. well, which one of these

00:40:29.989 --> 00:40:33.570
is my person or are none of them the person I'm

00:40:33.570 --> 00:40:35.510
looking for? So going back to your evidence,

00:40:35.630 --> 00:40:37.789
make sure you've got a firm foundation of evidence

00:40:37.789 --> 00:40:41.409
to compare against and then start systematically

00:40:41.409 --> 00:40:44.130
working through those individuals in your search

00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:47.329
results and comparing them against what you've

00:40:47.329 --> 00:40:49.929
already got. So there are some methods that do

00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:52.250
this in a particularly systematic way. There's

00:40:52.250 --> 00:40:54.920
one method that Helen Osborne wrote about. really

00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.280
beautifully in her book on genealogical research

00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.739
techniques. It's called the extract method. And

00:40:59.739 --> 00:41:01.519
that's where you perform a comprehensive or as

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:03.559
near as possible to a comprehensive, thorough

00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:07.019
search for your person. Drag down a big, long,

00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.780
potentially, list of search results. And then

00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:12.280
you start stepping out into other sort of record

00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.119
sets in parallel and saying, can I use some other

00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.039
complementary record sets to this to trace some

00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:20.920
of these individuals from my search results and

00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.000
maybe start. crossing some of them off based

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:27.659
on what I can find out about them once I compare

00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:29.559
that extra knowledge about these search results

00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:31.500
against what I already know from the evidence

00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:34.960
for my person of interest. Sometimes it can be

00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.199
quite a long process, but I think we learn a

00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.090
lot about... the environment that we're researching

00:41:40.090 --> 00:41:43.190
in as a result. And I think often that really

00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:45.469
wonderful deep process of how much we have to

00:41:45.469 --> 00:41:48.849
think about not just our person of interest,

00:41:48.929 --> 00:41:51.289
but their wider family unit, the context that

00:41:51.289 --> 00:41:53.389
they sit in, the location that they're in and

00:41:53.389 --> 00:41:56.360
things like that. I think that doesn't just make

00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.699
us a better researcher. It actually has the potential

00:41:58.699 --> 00:42:01.239
to bring much richer stories to the fore as well,

00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.320
as well as having that satisfaction that Nathan

00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:05.920
talked about of the moment when the brick wall

00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:07.639
comes down. And if you've had to battle through

00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:10.840
a list of search results and you've really worked

00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:12.539
with them, you feel that you practically know

00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:15.119
and have met those people from, you know, a century

00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.659
or more ago, then I think you can really feel

00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:22.469
comfortable and satisfied that you have. performed

00:42:22.469 --> 00:42:25.230
a systematic work through those results and you

00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:27.349
really are happy with the conclusions you've

00:42:27.349 --> 00:42:31.070
come to it does sound good i like the fact because

00:42:31.070 --> 00:42:34.150
it's it's quite kind of confusing and baffling

00:42:34.150 --> 00:42:36.429
and and it's a big obstacle isn't it when you've

00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:39.630
got lots of people so having a clear system even

00:42:39.630 --> 00:42:42.530
if it is you know, time consuming. It doesn't

00:42:42.530 --> 00:42:44.289
matter. At least you've got something that you

00:42:44.289 --> 00:42:46.590
can take your research forward. You're no longer

00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:49.630
stuck. You've got a plan. You can work on it.

00:42:49.889 --> 00:42:52.230
Particularly if you throw it into an Excel, you

00:42:52.230 --> 00:42:55.010
can gradually strike through everyone who is.

00:42:55.630 --> 00:42:57.750
It's about breaking down that what seems like

00:42:57.750 --> 00:43:00.250
an insurmountable task into smaller bits. And

00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:02.769
I would say what I just described with the extracts

00:43:02.769 --> 00:43:04.889
method isn't something you have to bring into

00:43:04.889 --> 00:43:07.389
your research every single time. That could be

00:43:07.389 --> 00:43:10.050
a sort of a really let's get stuck. in method

00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:12.309
if you've got one of those really tricky problems

00:43:12.309 --> 00:43:14.809
with an ancestor that just does not want to be

00:43:14.809 --> 00:43:18.010
found and that can give you a really good clarity

00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:20.610
check on have i have i looked everywhere have

00:43:20.610 --> 00:43:23.199
i really considered all the people that might

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:25.920
be my person you can do a sort of smaller scale

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.699
version of that if if somebody if it's a sort

00:43:28.699 --> 00:43:30.900
of less challenging brick wall but you want to

00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.760
know that you've been thorough so i think there

00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.599
are lots of different approaches one can take

00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.960
and bringing multiple record sets in as well

00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.760
to say rather than just taking my list of search

00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.260
results and based on looking at that individual

00:43:42.260 --> 00:43:45.099
in one record deciding whether or not it's my

00:43:45.099 --> 00:43:48.400
person starting to expand your research you might

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.320
want to sort of whittle down that long list into

00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:52.219
a short list of a small number of candidates

00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:54.739
and say I think I think these are probably the

00:43:54.739 --> 00:43:56.980
ones I need to look at and then do some wider

00:43:56.980 --> 00:44:00.119
research on them to see do they fit with being

00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.719
my person or not and where where are the little

00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:05.760
discontinuities and things inviting me to ask

00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.480
more questions I like it I did actually start

00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.760
doing this so a few years ago this is my mini

00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:15.360
anecdote There's an ancestor called Janet McLaren

00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.420
on our family tree. She's very exciting because

00:44:17.420 --> 00:44:19.719
her dad is called Donald McLaren. Donald McLaren

00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:24.539
got captured. He was a Jacobite and he was on

00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:27.380
the wagon going off to go and get tried. And

00:44:27.380 --> 00:44:29.820
he jumped off the wagon, down the cliff, into

00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:32.699
the mist and was never seen again. And so...

00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:35.559
We have this ancestor, Janet McLaren, who fits

00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.099
the right time frame. And on a billion and one

00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:40.059
trees on Ancestry, there's Janet McLaren with

00:44:40.059 --> 00:44:42.599
her dad, Captain Donald McLaren. And she's born

00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:45.039
in Balquida in 1783 or something like that. That's

00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.519
right. Yeah. And anyway, but there's no evidence

00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.880
that there's that this Janet McLaren. We do have

00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:53.940
a Janet McLaren and we have her, you can trace

00:44:53.940 --> 00:44:57.039
her children, trace her marriage. But getting

00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:58.920
back beyond that, I haven't managed to do this.

00:44:59.059 --> 00:45:02.119
So I pulled up a short list of 83 Janet McLarens

00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:04.340
who were born in a rough time frame. And I started

00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:07.119
working through it on an Excel file back in lockdown.

00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.039
You know, we all had a bit more spare time and

00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:10.739
I haven't got back to her. This is what I need

00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:14.699
to do to establish, because all of us, we all

00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:17.699
dearly want our ancestor to be Captain Donald

00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:22.099
McCarrick. It's so exciting. But as far as I

00:45:22.099 --> 00:45:24.519
know, none of us have got any proof. I think

00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:26.800
that's a brilliant point, Helen, because I think

00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:28.400
each and every one of us has the power to be

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.179
swayed by. I think it's like our inner raconteur

00:45:31.179 --> 00:45:34.059
is thinking this will be a great story to share

00:45:34.059 --> 00:45:36.579
with people. And I think it's understandable

00:45:36.579 --> 00:45:39.480
when we see a sort of very tempting potential

00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:43.159
ancestor there. there can understandably be the

00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:45.659
feeling, as you said, of, oh, you know, surely,

00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:48.280
please let this be the person because it'd be

00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:50.039
really exciting to have them in the family tree.

00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.840
And I think... We shouldn't be afraid to take

00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.159
potential ancestors and leave them in a holder

00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:59.139
zone and say, you're very exciting. I'm going

00:45:59.139 --> 00:46:01.179
to leave you in that little playpen over there.

00:46:01.219 --> 00:46:03.400
Just stay put there in the pen for a while. I'm

00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.699
going to do some more research and I'll decide

00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:07.900
if you're really mine. And I think that could

00:46:07.900 --> 00:46:10.000
be one of the most difficult things to do when

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.849
a tempting ancestor enters the picture. But I

00:46:12.849 --> 00:46:14.610
think, as you said, Helen, having the patience

00:46:14.610 --> 00:46:15.949
to say, do you know what? I'm going to take this

00:46:15.949 --> 00:46:18.530
over time. I'll be systematic about it. And actually

00:46:18.530 --> 00:46:20.750
what it can end up almost turning into is practically

00:46:20.750 --> 00:46:22.610
a one name study, can't it? Where you think,

00:46:22.630 --> 00:46:24.449
I feel like I've looked through all of these

00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:27.059
different people. And learn so much about them.

00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.900
Sometimes the side effect of that is you manage

00:46:29.900 --> 00:46:33.420
to sort of reconstitute family groups for a surname

00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:35.639
in the process of working through your search

00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.400
results. And sometimes that can unlock other

00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:40.179
parts of your research where you might go, oh,

00:46:40.219 --> 00:46:42.780
well, maybe I've not necessarily found my ancestor,

00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:45.639
but possibly I found a collateral branch of the

00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:47.639
family and I've worked out how they all relate

00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.559
to each other. So sometimes there can be unexpected

00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:54.639
benefits of that thorough approach as well. That's

00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.119
a really cool story as well, Helen. We need to

00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.019
know more about that one. I need to know how

00:46:58.019 --> 00:46:59.980
it ends, yes. It might be entirely irrelevant

00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:03.099
to mine. The story's cool. He's cool. It's just

00:47:03.099 --> 00:47:06.480
like, is he ours? Right. A bit like my bandit

00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.920
guy from Australia. Again, he was... Somebody

00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:11.940
tempted me with a bandit from Australia that

00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:14.159
might have been related to me. It's like, probably

00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.780
not, but it sounds cool. Would you say that there's

00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:19.000
a good reason to learn about location then when

00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:21.559
it comes to doing your family research? Always.

00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.099
One of the things I'm a great fan of saying in

00:47:24.099 --> 00:47:26.519
my talks, I think you could make a good case

00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.119
for context being the most important word in

00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:33.099
genealogy. Because I think it's not only about

00:47:33.099 --> 00:47:35.820
understanding the physical environment that our

00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:38.219
ancestors lived in. It's about going back to

00:47:38.219 --> 00:47:40.159
those building blocks of our family tree, the

00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:43.019
historical records that we're working with. If

00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:45.340
we're really going to understand the information

00:47:45.340 --> 00:47:47.639
that's on those records, we do actually need

00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:49.739
to understand the provenance of the record. Who

00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:53.559
created it? Why? Where were they at the time?

00:47:53.579 --> 00:47:56.659
And how does that local context or regional or

00:47:56.659 --> 00:48:00.070
even national context? influence what's actually

00:48:00.070 --> 00:48:02.610
going into that record and how we need to interpret

00:48:02.610 --> 00:48:05.949
it so i would say yeah context so important and

00:48:05.949 --> 00:48:08.789
as a result a lot of location studies and beautiful

00:48:08.789 --> 00:48:12.469
historical maps bring them in at every turn not

00:48:12.469 --> 00:48:14.650
only are they gorgeous things to have in your

00:48:14.650 --> 00:48:19.710
research i think um i think historical maps get

00:48:19.710 --> 00:48:23.579
us asking different kinds of question about our

00:48:23.579 --> 00:48:26.519
ancestors and about how much we understand about

00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.960
our ancestors' worlds. Because I think it's easy

00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:31.260
to rattle off a list of locations that are in

00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:33.800
our family tree. But then if we ask ourselves,

00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.019
if somebody took a time machine and magically

00:48:37.019 --> 00:48:40.019
dropped me into this ancestral location in that

00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:42.780
time and place, would I be able to find my way

00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:45.619
around? And I think that's the kind of level

00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:48.199
of knowledge we all want to aim for. Do either

00:48:48.199 --> 00:48:51.039
of you have any locations in your family tree

00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.099
where you think, oh, if somebody parachuted me

00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:56.880
into that, I think I'd know where I was and be

00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.440
able to find my way around? I mean, unfortunately

00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:02.260
for me, most of my family is so local for the

00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:05.239
last few years. I literally know every single

00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.510
place and street. That's brilliant. I think that

00:49:08.510 --> 00:49:10.829
must feed into the richness of your research

00:49:10.829 --> 00:49:12.409
so much, though, Nathan, when you're sort of

00:49:12.409 --> 00:49:14.449
seeing something from potentially centuries ago

00:49:14.449 --> 00:49:17.489
and you go, oh, oh, hello. Yes, I know that bit

00:49:17.489 --> 00:49:20.409
of town. It does, because I'm like, oh, I was

00:49:20.409 --> 00:49:23.809
there last week. But equally, I create the excitement

00:49:23.809 --> 00:49:26.789
of different locations. But again, I guess what

00:49:26.789 --> 00:49:28.869
you were saying, looking at the context of the

00:49:28.869 --> 00:49:32.659
location. everybody in my tree is coming to Yorkshire

00:49:32.659 --> 00:49:34.139
so there's a reason for that isn't there and

00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:36.079
it's like obviously a bit of research it's industry

00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:40.300
etc and jobs As you say, that idea that you just

00:49:40.300 --> 00:49:43.239
mentioned of context and location, it can help

00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:46.039
us understand the sort of socioeconomic dynamics

00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:49.340
of an area. Why were people employed in certain

00:49:49.340 --> 00:49:52.159
lines of work in that place? What's that telling

00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:54.380
us? If we understand the ebb and flow of certain

00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:56.619
industries in that area, what's that telling

00:49:56.619 --> 00:49:59.260
us about ancestral migration? Because coming,

00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:01.019
of course, originally from the other side of

00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:02.960
the Pennines, I'm from southeast Lancashire.

00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:05.980
So, of course, I've got my tree, part of my tree

00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:08.119
is chock full of ancestors. from the cotton industry.

00:50:08.420 --> 00:50:12.480
But there's the point in the mid -19th century

00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:16.139
where some of them disappear from the town they're

00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:18.719
usually in because the Lancashire cotton famine

00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:22.539
has happened and temporarily the bottom falls

00:50:22.539 --> 00:50:24.719
out of the cotton market up in the northwest.

00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:28.519
And so some of my ancestors disappear off actually

00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:32.360
to Belfast. They go over. over to Belfast, and

00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:34.719
they take their existing skills and they go and

00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:37.099
work in the flax and linen industries over there

00:50:37.099 --> 00:50:41.179
until the cotton industry around Manchester is

00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:44.079
back on its feet again. So I think, as you said,

00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:45.980
understanding the local context and how that

00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:48.199
feeds into industries and occupations can also

00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:51.780
tell us about ancestral migration. That's a big

00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:53.420
brick wall for so many of us, isn't it? Where

00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:55.679
you go, oh, well, my ancestor was here. Where

00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:58.719
have they gone? And when migration hits, knowing

00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:01.579
where on earth to even go looking for them can

00:51:01.579 --> 00:51:04.599
be a really big conundrum. So I would say, yes,

00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.380
location feeds into that so much. So we're talking

00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:09.619
about all the different ways we can kind of...

00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.760
overcome obstacles and sometimes we are gathering

00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:15.500
our information and there's always that kind

00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:17.760
of little worry at the back of our mind like

00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.179
do these details stack up or are there bits which

00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:25.460
are jarring with each other so Sophie you know

00:51:25.460 --> 00:51:28.619
how do we deal with that how do we kind of we

00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:30.420
don't want to overlook the things which are jarring

00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:33.059
how do we we've got our set of facts how do we

00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:36.199
know what to kind of pick and choose that are

00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:39.659
true and which ones are to be wary of? Oh, I

00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:41.940
love that. I love that question, Helen. I think

00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:45.059
that really cuts to the heart of what a lot of

00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:47.420
us have to do when we're solving any problem,

00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:49.059
actually, in genealogy, but particularly the

00:51:49.059 --> 00:51:51.340
difficult problems, that idea of evidence conflicts.

00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:54.579
If you've got a basis of evidence for your person

00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:57.900
of interest and you found a new item that might

00:51:57.900 --> 00:51:59.860
be them and you're thinking, oh, it could be

00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:02.699
them. But there's some little biographical details

00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:05.480
or some big biographical details that don't seem

00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:08.480
to be matching up. Why is that happening? And

00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:10.780
I think sometimes because conflicts of evidence

00:52:10.780 --> 00:52:13.320
can feel a bit scary, like things we think, how

00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.219
on earth am I going to overcome this? And we

00:52:16.219 --> 00:52:19.099
know in research we can't always overcome every

00:52:19.099 --> 00:52:22.659
single evidence conflict. But I would say. conflicts

00:52:22.659 --> 00:52:25.539
of evidence are the seeds of progress. Again,

00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:27.360
because they're inviting us to ask questions

00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.079
about what do I know about my person of interest?

00:52:30.260 --> 00:52:33.039
Am I making too many assumptions about how they

00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:35.539
might appear in the records? And so I would say

00:52:35.539 --> 00:52:37.800
if you find a conflict of evidence in something

00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.739
that's cropped up. Never ignore it. There's a

00:52:41.739 --> 00:52:45.219
reason why many years ago now, a group of genealogists

00:52:45.219 --> 00:52:47.099
over in the States developed the genealogical

00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:49.400
proof standard that has five different aspects

00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.320
that have to be satisfied before you can say

00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:54.800
you have proven something. And one of those five

00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:57.679
pillars of proof is resolving evidence conflicts.

00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.420
So effectively, you haven't got your proof over

00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:02.659
the line until you've resolved those conflicts.

00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:05.360
And sometimes you can have a conflict of evidence

00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:09.989
like. For a really simple reason, it can be just

00:53:09.989 --> 00:53:12.429
a little spelling error in somebody's name or

00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:14.690
a natural variant of the name. It could be somebody

00:53:14.690 --> 00:53:17.150
using a nickname instead of the name you're used

00:53:17.150 --> 00:53:20.590
to seeing them by. Sometimes that evidence conflict

00:53:20.590 --> 00:53:23.650
could be speaking to a part of your ancestor's

00:53:23.650 --> 00:53:26.150
story that you simply don't know about yet. And

00:53:26.150 --> 00:53:29.150
so you see it as a conflict. It's actually inviting

00:53:29.150 --> 00:53:32.190
you in. to take a more expansive view on what

00:53:32.190 --> 00:53:35.070
their story is and say, oh, if I really delve

00:53:35.070 --> 00:53:37.530
into this record that seems to conflict with

00:53:37.530 --> 00:53:40.550
the evidence I've got for this person, can I

00:53:40.550 --> 00:53:42.630
do some more extensive research about the person

00:53:42.630 --> 00:53:45.090
in this new record? And maybe that will either

00:53:45.090 --> 00:53:47.750
cast up new information that helps me resolve

00:53:47.750 --> 00:53:50.730
the conflict, or it might give me new information

00:53:50.730 --> 00:53:54.670
that says, oh. I can see this person isn't actually

00:53:54.670 --> 00:53:56.869
the one I'm looking for now. So that's why I

00:53:56.869 --> 00:53:59.230
think of conflicts as the seeds of progress.

00:53:59.550 --> 00:54:01.809
They will actually, if we're willing to sort

00:54:01.809 --> 00:54:04.710
of really tackle them head on, they will help

00:54:04.710 --> 00:54:06.949
us discover new things, either about our ancestor

00:54:06.949 --> 00:54:08.789
or rule them out of the picture. And there's

00:54:08.789 --> 00:54:11.750
a reason why evidence conflicts have to be resolved

00:54:11.750 --> 00:54:14.190
before you get that proof over the line. So I

00:54:14.190 --> 00:54:16.969
think in the world of kind of training ourselves

00:54:16.969 --> 00:54:19.550
up for genealogy, every single day when we tackle

00:54:19.550 --> 00:54:22.210
that ancestral research. Learning not to shy

00:54:22.210 --> 00:54:25.050
away from those difficult little conflicts. There's

00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:27.110
always a wonderful opportunity to learn more,

00:54:27.150 --> 00:54:29.340
I think, where we see them. That's really useful.

00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:32.179
Yeah, really useful. I just found somebody, so

00:54:32.179 --> 00:54:35.400
I'm looking for my, Nathan knows this, my great

00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:37.320
-granny's uncle, and they're trying to find his

00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.440
death. And the only possible entry I can find

00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:42.699
in the Irish death records is for a 60 -year

00:54:42.699 --> 00:54:46.059
-old confectioner in the north of Ireland in

00:54:46.059 --> 00:54:49.039
about 1910. So that sounds, why should I be worried

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:50.960
about this? The reason I'm worried about it is

00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:53.519
because the last time I find him, or the second

00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:55.440
last time I find him, he's... nicked a ton of

00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.139
coal and so i'm just like he's had quite a kind

00:54:58.139 --> 00:55:01.420
of turnaround in those 15 year that 15 year period

00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:04.820
he's gone from coal thief to marrying to potentially

00:55:04.820 --> 00:55:07.760
we didn't know where his wife and child are and

00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:11.199
then is he really ending his days as a confectioner

00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:15.519
i mean that sounds very I hope it is him. That's

00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:17.460
a lovely ending to his life, but it's not looking

00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.699
plausible at the moment. It's looking like a

00:55:19.699 --> 00:55:22.139
conflict with a bit capital C. I love that, though,

00:55:22.219 --> 00:55:23.780
Helen, because as you say, you've really hit

00:55:23.780 --> 00:55:25.800
on that. That's a very obvious conflict, isn't

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.500
it? For all the reasons you've described, it

00:55:27.500 --> 00:55:30.179
could be somebody who's effectively ended their

00:55:30.179 --> 00:55:32.639
days as a sort of, if you will, reformed character.

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.340
Do you think that's fair to say? Or as you say,

00:55:35.460 --> 00:55:37.420
it could be that it's not the person you're looking

00:55:37.420 --> 00:55:39.719
for. So at that point, I would absolutely want

00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:41.739
to do more research into this confectioner and

00:55:41.739 --> 00:55:44.579
say, ooh. What can I find out about him? What

00:55:44.579 --> 00:55:47.800
record sets do I have that might help me tap

00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:51.559
into that particular person? And you say there's

00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:53.980
migration. If this person is the one that you're

00:55:53.980 --> 00:55:56.000
looking for, there's also migration involved.

00:55:56.119 --> 00:55:59.039
Is that right? And so looking at the logistics

00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:01.960
of that, there's a wonderful part of the CAMPOP

00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.980
website. It's the Cambridge Institute for the

00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:07.300
Study of Population, I think. They've got a wonderful,

00:56:07.420 --> 00:56:09.039
they've got so many wonderful resources, including

00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:12.579
an interactive map that allows you to plot different

00:56:12.579 --> 00:56:15.619
points in the country. And it will tell you at

00:56:15.619 --> 00:56:18.710
different... points in time how long it would

00:56:18.710 --> 00:56:21.769
take to move between those points and even plot

00:56:21.769 --> 00:56:24.329
a route for you based on whether it's a railway

00:56:24.329 --> 00:56:27.909
journey whether you're using turnpike roads whether

00:56:27.909 --> 00:56:29.989
you're going on just regular horseback whether

00:56:29.989 --> 00:56:32.389
you're going on foot in different eras so that's

00:56:32.389 --> 00:56:35.070
also a great tool that you can use to see Is

00:56:35.070 --> 00:56:37.670
this migration story I've got in my head for

00:56:37.670 --> 00:56:41.230
this possible ancestor, is it even viable? So

00:56:41.230 --> 00:56:43.389
that's a great way to sort of cross whether or

00:56:43.389 --> 00:56:46.230
not you think it's actually really, really them.

00:56:46.570 --> 00:56:49.489
Alongside, of course, wider, wider genealogical

00:56:49.489 --> 00:56:53.159
research into the person of interest. So thanks,

00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:54.820
Sophie. We've talked about so many different

00:56:54.820 --> 00:56:57.139
possible ways to stop feeling stuck and to get

00:56:57.139 --> 00:56:59.380
started again, different techniques we can weave

00:56:59.380 --> 00:57:02.420
together. So do you when you do your research,

00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:04.699
do you have a kind of clear set of steps or do

00:57:04.699 --> 00:57:07.159
you you know, you've kind of got your your toolbox

00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:09.199
and then when you get stuck, you look in the

00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:10.840
toolbox and think, what tools am I going to use?

00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:12.960
How do you go about it? I would say it's the

00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:15.280
toolbox analogy, Helen, because I would say,

00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:18.280
you know, we can all have lots of wonderful genealogical

00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:21.079
techniques to apply to those really tricky brick

00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:23.059
wall problems. We've talked about various ones

00:57:23.059 --> 00:57:26.400
in this conversation, haven't we? But I don't

00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:29.260
think any of us should ever expect that a particular

00:57:29.260 --> 00:57:32.139
genealogical method or tool. should be applicable

00:57:32.139 --> 00:57:35.139
to every single research scenario. So I would

00:57:35.139 --> 00:57:38.000
absolutely encourage everyone to explore lots

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.579
of different techniques, see which ones particularly

00:57:40.579 --> 00:57:43.380
sit well with you, and then understand the best

00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:46.460
places in which to use those in your research.

00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:49.900
So there are certain techniques that might work

00:57:49.900 --> 00:57:52.460
really, really well if you've got an abundance

00:57:52.460 --> 00:57:55.679
of record sets to work with and you can do lots

00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:59.179
of detailed extensive searches. And you might

00:57:59.179 --> 00:58:01.840
find that the... There are other methods where

00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:05.280
if you don't have abundant resources, you simply

00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.139
won't be able to apply that method in a really

00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:10.159
rigorous way. So I would say choosing the best

00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:12.019
course of action is really important. If I've

00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:14.159
got a particular research problem and it's a

00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:16.000
brick wall, I will step back. And as well as

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:18.800
saying, what evidence do I already have? I'll

00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:21.920
say, what is the time and place of this particular

00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:25.010
research problem? What's that telling me about

00:58:25.010 --> 00:58:28.389
the resources I have available to help me tackle

00:58:28.389 --> 00:58:30.329
it? You know, which record sets are available

00:58:30.329 --> 00:58:32.949
and workable? What can I access? What can I work

00:58:32.949 --> 00:58:35.230
through and how reliable are those particular

00:58:35.230 --> 00:58:38.829
resources? And from there, I will then choose

00:58:38.829 --> 00:58:41.590
a particular. method of tackling the research

00:58:41.590 --> 00:58:44.489
problem depending on what I think is best for

00:58:44.489 --> 00:58:47.050
that particular time and place and then I know

00:58:47.050 --> 00:58:48.809
I'm using a nice robust method that's going to

00:58:48.809 --> 00:58:51.070
most likely stand the best chance of success

00:58:51.070 --> 00:58:53.530
and you know what if the first method doesn't

00:58:53.530 --> 00:58:56.170
yield an answer I'll then choose a different

00:58:56.170 --> 00:58:58.650
item from the toolbox as it were and say okay

00:58:58.650 --> 00:59:01.070
let's try something different and I think it

00:59:01.070 --> 00:59:02.929
also comes back as well as having good research

00:59:02.929 --> 00:59:05.619
methodology. and good tools and techniques to

00:59:05.619 --> 00:59:08.840
use, having a good way of visualising our evidence.

00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:10.699
Because I know earlier on, Nathan, you talked

00:59:10.699 --> 00:59:13.960
about timelines. And we said how I think for

00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:16.139
you, and I would also say for me, timelines work

00:59:16.139 --> 00:59:18.519
really well, but they don't necessarily work

00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:20.559
for everyone. So I would say to anyone listening,

00:59:20.619 --> 00:59:23.320
actually. If timelines don't work for you, find

00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:25.300
a different way of visualising your evidence,

00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:27.820
whether it's an evidence wall, whether it is,

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:30.199
I don't know, sort of printing out big pictures

00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:32.920
of particular records and pinning them up on

00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.260
your wall and really scrutinising them. Finding

00:59:35.260 --> 00:59:37.960
some way of visualising your evidence that works

00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.840
for you, I think, helps you move through that

00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:42.579
evidence, see the bigger picture of what you've

00:59:42.579 --> 00:59:44.320
got, whether it's an evidence wall, a timeline,

00:59:44.619 --> 00:59:47.809
a spreadsheet, a mind map. Getting the bigger

00:59:47.809 --> 00:59:51.030
picture is always going to help. And then factoring

00:59:51.030 --> 00:59:54.050
in time and place considerations and what records

00:59:54.050 --> 00:59:57.010
and techniques are available to you to use. And

00:59:57.010 --> 00:59:59.110
then you can start moving through your research

00:59:59.110 --> 01:00:01.510
with a way that's going to help the problem most

01:00:01.510 --> 01:00:04.170
and talk to people. I think even in these conversations,

01:00:04.329 --> 01:00:06.489
we can we can sort of really pick apart our research

01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:10.139
problems. Can't we? And I think when we ask questions

01:00:10.139 --> 01:00:12.719
of each other, I'd say get get a genealogical

01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:14.559
friend and talk to them about the research that

01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:17.219
you're struggling with. And sometimes they will

01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:20.119
just ask slightly different questions that pull

01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:22.639
you out of your current mindset and get you looking

01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:24.900
at the problem in a whole new light. And I don't

01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:28.179
think that is ever something we should leave

01:00:28.179 --> 01:00:30.980
to one side. Conversation helps us. Definitely.

01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:33.840
This helps me loads that I think just the word

01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:36.639
question, to be honest, is really useful. If

01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:38.760
you get stuck, if I'm doing my regular method

01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:41.239
and it is very meticulous and organised, I'm

01:00:41.239 --> 01:00:43.159
following a very particular structure. But you

01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:45.199
just saying when you get stuck, instead of just

01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.280
being stuck, ask a question that's related. It

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:50.619
opens it up, doesn't it? Straight away. Absolutely.

01:00:50.699 --> 01:00:52.960
There's a method I like to use that I call flights

01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.400
of fancy, where if I'm really stuck and it only

01:00:55.400 --> 01:00:58.539
takes five minutes, I think we rely on logic

01:00:58.539 --> 01:01:00.840
for very good reasons in our research because

01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:02.940
we have to be evidence based and logic helps

01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:06.159
us make good decisions. But then sometimes we

01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:08.340
can have an underlying assumption about the scenario

01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:10.719
that we're researching that is actually holding

01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:13.400
us back and we're a bit blinkered. And flights

01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:16.380
of fancy for me helps the blinkers come off.

01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:19.460
So you set a timer for five minutes. During that

01:01:19.460 --> 01:01:22.059
five minute window, you have a pad of paper or,

01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:24.070
you know, a... sort of word document or whatever

01:01:24.070 --> 01:01:26.849
in front of you and you just write down free

01:01:26.849 --> 01:01:29.610
form any thoughts that come to mind about why

01:01:29.610 --> 01:01:31.889
you're not solving that research problem at the

01:01:31.889 --> 01:01:33.869
moment what what might have happened in the story

01:01:33.869 --> 01:01:36.409
you can be as whimsical and silly as you like

01:01:36.409 --> 01:01:40.130
the example i like to give is if if you imagine

01:01:40.130 --> 01:01:41.989
you've got a migratory ancestor that seems to

01:01:41.989 --> 01:01:43.909
have disappeared from the records during that

01:01:43.909 --> 01:01:46.320
flights of fancy session You might make some

01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:48.519
very sensible remarks about your research approach

01:01:48.519 --> 01:01:51.519
and why you think that's maybe not covered all

01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:53.599
of the records. But you might equally have a

01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:56.179
really whimsical statement of, oh, has John run

01:01:56.179 --> 01:01:59.159
away and joined the circus? And that might not

01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:00.980
be something that you think has remotely happened.

01:02:01.019 --> 01:02:03.019
But within that five minute flights of fancy,

01:02:03.260 --> 01:02:06.780
it's OK to do that because I think flights of

01:02:06.780 --> 01:02:08.719
fancy allows us to be a bit silly. It allows

01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:11.300
us to be a bit playful and it engages the creative

01:02:11.300 --> 01:02:14.989
mode of our brain. And that creativity, once

01:02:14.989 --> 01:02:17.050
we then after the five minutes are up, you take

01:02:17.050 --> 01:02:19.329
your list that might have sensible stuff and

01:02:19.329 --> 01:02:21.849
whimsical stuff and you put your sensible hat

01:02:21.849 --> 01:02:24.449
back on and you start working through that list

01:02:24.449 --> 01:02:27.789
methodically. And sometimes even some of those

01:02:27.789 --> 01:02:30.130
whimsical statements can just, as well as making

01:02:30.130 --> 01:02:32.210
you smile, make you look at the problem in a

01:02:32.210 --> 01:02:34.630
slightly different light. And sometimes that

01:02:34.630 --> 01:02:36.849
creativity can kick you out of the rut that you

01:02:36.849 --> 01:02:40.000
were in and have you saying, oh. maybe I've actually

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:42.320
not been looking at this from the right angle.

01:02:42.519 --> 01:02:44.780
And so, yeah, coupling creative thinking and

01:02:44.780 --> 01:02:47.619
critical thinking brings creativity and logic

01:02:47.619 --> 01:02:49.760
together. And I think sometimes that's the extra

01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:52.440
little ingredient we need as well. So definitely

01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:54.519
give that a go if you've got a longstanding brick

01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:56.480
wall. Yeah, I love that. I'd definitely do that

01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.039
one. You have to report back. Let me know how

01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:01.119
you go. I don't know. My flights of fancy might

01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:06.130
be a bit crazy. There's nothing that is too crazy

01:03:06.130 --> 01:03:08.429
for flights of fancy. The whole point is it's

01:03:08.429 --> 01:03:10.869
completely unbounded thinking. And I think by

01:03:10.869 --> 01:03:14.010
giving ourselves the permission to not have to

01:03:14.010 --> 01:03:18.010
be, you know, Mr. or Miss Hospital Corners getting,

01:03:18.070 --> 01:03:19.650
you know, dotting the I's and crossing the T's,

01:03:19.710 --> 01:03:21.889
it gives us a five or even ten minute, if you

01:03:21.889 --> 01:03:24.269
want, ring fence space to just be a bit silly,

01:03:24.389 --> 01:03:27.409
be a bit playful, creative. And sometimes that

01:03:27.409 --> 01:03:29.469
can actually be the thing that gets us going,

01:03:29.530 --> 01:03:32.219
oh. All right. I found it. Yeah. Nothing is too

01:03:32.219 --> 01:03:34.599
silly for flights of fancy, Nathan. Just go all

01:03:34.599 --> 01:03:36.940
out and see where it gets you. Well, that definitely

01:03:36.940 --> 01:03:39.139
suits me then. Excellent. Yeah. As long as you

01:03:39.139 --> 01:03:40.840
come back in at the end of the five to ten minutes

01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.039
and you start being very sensible working through

01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:45.480
that list, that brings that brings the right

01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:47.840
amount of logical thinking in to keep everything

01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:49.940
in check. But yeah, within those five to ten

01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:53.199
minutes, just go wild. Nice. OK, this has been

01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:56.000
really, really fun and so useful, Sophie. And

01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.440
if anybody else would love to learn about research

01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:00.719
techniques that can help you smash through your

01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:02.719
family history brick walls, then we have a brand

01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:05.519
new online five week course, which is going to

01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.800
be tutored by Dr. Sophie Kay. It's called the

01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:10.300
Family Tree Brick Walls Workshop. And with it,

01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:13.099
you get a digital copy of a brand new workbook

01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:14.880
that Sophie's been working on. And Nathan has

01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:16.639
actually been designing. So it's a very, very

01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:20.639
small team. And this starts on Tuesday, the 2nd

01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.019
of June. at 7 30 and if you go over to our website

01:04:23.019 --> 01:04:27.019
which is www .family -tree .co .uk then you can

01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:29.579
find out more about the course find out about

01:04:29.579 --> 01:04:32.639
the syllabus and find out how to book your place

01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:34.179
to make sure you don't miss out so we'd love

01:04:34.179 --> 01:04:36.219
to see you all there and thank you so much sophie

01:04:36.219 --> 01:04:39.340
for your time and for your ideas and your enthusiasm

01:04:39.340 --> 01:04:41.500
it's been really really fun oh you're welcome

01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:44.099
it's a pleasure as always bye then thanks for

01:04:44.099 --> 01:04:46.179
listening everybody lovely talking to you thank

01:04:46.179 --> 01:04:53.159
you guys thanks bye Thank you.