Hello everybody and welcome to Family Tree Talk,
your favourite Family Tree podcast. I'm your
co -host Nathan Ward and with me as always is...
Helen Tovey. Hi Helen, you alright? I'm really
well, yeah. How are you? I'm not too bad, thank
you. I'm feeling well rested this morning so
I'm full of beans. Yes, definitely spring is
in the air now, isn't it? It is, the sun is out.
Yeah. So, how's your genealogy going? not well
not well um not it's not not going well it's
just i haven't had the quality time with it that
i wanted obviously you know easter and like living
family just getting in the way of life and stuff
getting in the way of actually doing genealogy
so they've taken up most of my time so i haven't
done as much as i would have liked to have done
but i have done a bit i've literally I'm getting
bored of myself, to be honest. I need to sort
out these last few death days and I still need
to sort out the story of Catherine. I didn't
do those things which I said I was going to do.
Instead, I went to my tree score and started
doing that and I got a little bit lost and excited
in that. I'm still on 9 .9, but in checking my
tree score, it sent me back to the McKays. And
it was lovely. I was like, oh, God, I've not
been with these guys for a while. I've got a
real big soft spot for them. Like, obviously,
I like my Horatio Nelson, but the McKays as well.
There's something about those guys. Even though
they've got the edge of Scotland going on, which
terrifies me, I feel very comfortable with them.
And it was like coming home. I can't describe
it. It was just a really lovely feeling. It's
like, oh, Alexander, you're there again. Hello.
I remember in one of the early podcasts, you
talking about the McKays and how I think, did
your granny have like a plaque or something to
do with the McKays? Yeah. So their kind of history
and heritage felt very much parts of your family
still. Yeah, it was always really unknown. As
a kid, it was like we had this bit of tartan
with a coat of arms and like some fancy message
on there, which I can't remember off the top
of my head. And it was never really quantified
to me as a child. Oh, yeah, you've got Scottish
ancestry, but nobody ever told me anything about
it. So I was always sort of quite, you know,
interested and like, wow. And like me being like
the 80s culture geek that I am, I was like, maybe
we're related to the Highlander and stuff like
that. It's a film, Helen. So, yeah, I always
loved that, but it was just fun. Why did it send
me back? There's two children called Mary and
Maria, and they're born a year apart. And the
tree scar thing said, are these duplicates? You
need to check this out. So it sent me back to
them. And as soon as I got back to them, I'm
like, oh, it's just, it just felt really warm
and comforting. It was a lovely feeling. But
so my basic research has been, well, it has,
it's been going back to basics. And like, I didn't
have that much information on these people. I
obviously did on the main line. But these were
the children, sorry, these were the siblings
of James Maxwell McKay, who I've talked about
quite a bit. And I hadn't explored them at all.
So I literally just went back to the censuses
and started adding them that way again, making
sure that they were present on two or three different
censuses together. So they are definitely in
the same place at the same time, which they were.
But it was just lovely seeing all the names.
Obviously, I've talked about this before, but
a lot of the men. have really cool middle names.
Obviously, James Maxwell McKay, awesome name.
We've got Alexander Lockhart McKay and William
Johnson McKay. And they're just all really awesome
middle names. That's making me want to ask you
so many questions, Nathan, about all of this.
So first of all, are those two little girls,
Marie and Maria, are they one or two little children?
They are two little children. They're present
on multiple censuses together. So I got them
on the 1881 and the 1891 together. It was a bit
hit and miss on the 1881 because it was quite
messy scrawl on the entry, but you can see them
there. I thought, okay, I need to obviously make
sure that they are definitely there later on
or hope that they hadn't died and they were there
later on and they were there clear as day on
the 1891. And that's actually really interesting,
though, because their names are so similar. So
they definitely got different, the same mum,
the same mum and the same dad as well, because
potentially has the dad married a second time.
Just they're so similar, aren't they? Yeah, it's
Mary, M -A -R -Y, and Maria, M -A -R -I -A. OK.
I hadn't questioned anything until you've just
said that, but they have children after those
two. And they're all called Mary, so it's fine.
Yeah, even the men. No, they've had a... It's
Alexander and Jane. They're the parents. They're
my third -time great -grandparents. Oh, I don't
have Jane's death date. Naughty Nathan. And they
have a brother born 1859. Their Mary's born 1861.
Maria's born 1863. OK. The census puts them a
year apart, but obviously it's that about thing.
Yeah. So whenever it was taken, they were only
a year apart. And then Alexander Lockhart was
born a year after Maria. So I've got no reason
to think that there's a different parent involved.
It's okay, doesn't it? Yeah, I just felt like
they were very close, how you said it, they were
really close in age. And I was like, wait a minute,
got really close age and a really close name.
Yeah. Definitely. two little girls by the same
parents i guess that's why they threw it up i'm
behaving as bad as an ancestry algorithm now
aren't i no it's valid though isn't it it's worth
asking the question because i was like when i
saw it i was like well of course they're the
different people then it's like well are they
and especially the hard thing with the actual
prompt from the tree score is sometimes it'll
send you to a part of your tree you've not been
to for ages yeah and you're like Who is this?
Where are they? And it's totally just out there.
So it takes you a little bit of time to reframe.
Yeah. So when that happens to you, so I'm such
a pig -headed person and I find it very annoying
to get thrown off my train of thought. So when
there are hints, I do follow them sometimes,
or when there are errors thrown up to me or...
Or even if a relative asks a question about something
I'm not working on, I will go and look at it
and work on it. But I find it really disorientating
and I kind of like to stick to what I'm doing.
So what do you find when you get thrown a hint
about something that's potentially wrong and
it's not an area you want to look at? Do you
just go with it or what do you feel? I have a
minor freak out. really hard to get yourself
back into the groove of who they are and where
they are because you do have to refresh everything
and the McKay's I think again that feeling of
warmth might just because I'm comfortable with
them even though I did have to refresh a bit
it was like oh I know these guys I'm quite happy
it's all good it was just enjoyable to see their
names appearing again because obviously when
you've got silly not silly really cool middle
names it's easier to find them because you know
that there's not going to be that many Stock
carts or lock carts or whatever the middle name
is. So that was really cool. But the flip side
of that is the next hint that I went to, which
have not quite resolved. It just goes, you haven't
got any citations or documentation, et cetera,
for Marianne Edwards. And I'm like, who is Marianne
Edwards? I haven't a clue who she is. And then
I click on a name and it's like, oh, yeah, she's
married to Richard Rowden. Who the hell is that?
If it's somebody I've not spent a long time with,
it literally is starting again. As it is, digging
a bit deeper, Mary Ann Edwards is actually James
Maxwell McKay's mother -in -law. So it's still
on that branch, but it's obviously a side shoot,
which I've got no clue about. Yeah. What I love
about all those names, those middle names you
mentioned, is you feel as though they're bound
to include... lots of clues about other family
names. They're not going to have chosen them
at random, are they? They're not. And, like,
I hadn't actually been that involved or bothered
about that side of it previously. Obviously,
now I'm a little bit more involved in my family
history. So as soon as they came up, I'm like,
I'm going to have to research these middle names
because they're awesome. I know that Johnson
is the maiden name of their mother, so that's
one of them ticked off. So I need to find out
where Maxwell... lockhart and stockhart come
from they're just awesome aren't they it's cool
i can imagine it in some sort of uh amazon prime
scotland highlander type tv show it'd be amazing
yeah the lockhart yeah yes yeah there's some
digging potential to do there isn't there um
lots yeah serious rabbit hole but it's it'll
be a fun one because i do love this line so i'm
keen to find out more and also me just being
grumpy thing i don't like I'm being taken off
at unexpected tangents of course I do like that
as well and there'll be at some point you'll
be doing your research you'll have forgotten
that potentially that you're trying to track
down where these middle names originated from
like why do they get woven in as middle names
in your tree and then you'll come across an ancestor
with that surname and you'll be like yes yeah
it's so exciting it's different though isn't
it like going off on a tangent because you've
found something interesting is always great and
you're quite happy to be to follow that path
but when the ancestry hint throws up a name that
you have no clue frame of reference have any
idea where it is on your tree it feels tiring
almost because it's it's the work of right i
need to refresh where i am and go back and dig
around and if it's a name i don't recognize then
it clearly probably isn't on my actual direct
descendants do you know you talking about hints
has just reminded me we've had some fantastic
podcast emails and one of them has got a hint
for you about hints shall i go over to our podcast
um correspondence yeah let's do it a hint hint
a hint about hints yes i like it it's good yeah
so on friday evening so just a little while ago
we had a wonderful email from podcast listener
rosemary and she says a hint for nathan is um
to ignore the hints yeah She says, just ignore
them. If you don't want to look at them, just
ignore them. I don't like that. I like the hints.
Sorry, Rosemary. And then she does have another
extremely good hint. And she says, another hint
for Nathan, because Rosemary believes that you're
a visual person, which I think you are, aren't
you? I am. I certainly am. Yeah. And she says
to do your research log or make your notes in
a mind map form because then it looks less like
a list of chores and you've still got all of
everything recorded down that you need to record.
I do do that a little bit, but my mind map just
looks like a mess. I need to take Jude's advice.
Jude said to get it on some wallpaper, didn't
she, and make a massive mind map. Mm -hmm. then
it might be more organised. But I'm doing it
on a tiny piece of paper and trying to fit as
much information as I can on this small piece
of paper. So I do agree, yeah, a mind map's probably
a good idea. When I was at school, I had a brilliant
history teacher and she was called Mrs Webb and
she was all about mind maps, but she called them
spider plans. And so obviously we would just
be doing them on a piece of paper because we
didn't even have a computer to work on, so that
wasn't even... That wasn't even part of the horizon.
Yeah. And so with our mind maps, she made us
be really methodical about them. So we would
put the main question that we were trying to
work out about Louis XIV or whoever we were learning
about at school. We put that main question in
the middle of our piece of paper. And then she
would encourage us immediately before we start
researching anything or reading anything to.
do some sub questions from it so with her her
big topics where you need to find out about the
political scene the economic scene the social
scene and the religious scene because those are
four main drivers which um are kind of like the
wheels of history and why things change and so
you would write down literally let's see have
your central central body of the spider with
the question and then you'd have your four main
topics and then from there everything you found
to do with politics you'd add on to the little
spider bubble And blah, blah, blah, going around.
So I think that's a good way of, rather than
the mind map just being an explosion onto your
page, it has a bit of order immediately, doesn't
it? And another thing she encouraged us to do
was once you've done your mind map, then redo
your mind map. So you've done your mind map,
which is like a work in progress, and before
you write out your essay or while you're gathering
your thoughts, redo your mind map so it's coherent.
Do a tidy version, yeah. I'm not prone to doing
the tidy version. I think in general, I do a
lot of reflecting on myself and life. I think
I'm quite, obviously, meticulous is coming out
a little bit with my family tree research, but
in general, my mind's quite chaotic. So when
I do my notes, it is just chaos splurged onto
the page. It might be all useful and helpful,
but it's just, it is, that's how. I think I'm
creatively chaotic, but actually there's an analytical,
organised side of me, so I'm constantly in battle
with myself. Some deep insight into myself there.
I was talking to people from Devon Family History
Society the other evening, and we were talking
about what it feels like doing family history,
how organised or disorganised we feel. And there
is a bit of a sense of overwhelm, isn't it? Because
there's lots of things we're trying to accomplish
with our family history. So on the one hand,
just what you said, there's always that balance
where we're really excited about it, but then
there's so many things to be excited about. We're
like, which one should we do now? Have we organised
it up? Have we written it up? We set ourselves
loads of challenges to try and do a good job
with it. On balance, most people felt on the
verge of chaos, I think. But then we decided
that actually we weren't as chaotic as we thought
we were, because we were actually doing loads
of cool things. accomplishing loads of cool things
you know finishing projects people were writing
blogs organizing projects doing their own family
history helping other people with their family
history learning about new things like ai that's
incredible that's so many achievements isn't
it yeah no it's it's fantastic isn't it it's
something to be excited about and it's a nice
kind of chaos like the overwhelm take you too
much because it's supposed to be fun it's supposed
to be enjoyable like and i i know i've moaned
in the last couple of weeks about the sort of
maintenance aspect that i've been doing recently
i've been very methodical and slow and finding
all these death dates out that isn't exciting
it does feel like maintenance but on the whole
like like when i said about looking at the mckay's
there was this warmth a little bit of giddiness
these are my people and i like that feeling it's
a lovely feeling definitely i think that's the
whole point of doing it really isn't it it is
yeah i actually want to go out and buy some tartan
now i actually yes you have to make sure you
get the right one though won't you Yeah, definitely.
I want to know where that shield's gone, actually.
Someone's got it. Yeah. I'll have to quiz around.
Yeah, you will do. And you're going to have to
just either take a photograph of it when you
find it in whichever relative's house or just
go, I really, I've always loved that shield.
Drop heavy hints and maybe it might come your
way. Just don't feel complete without it. Yes,
yes. But lay it on thick and see if they give
it to me. Yes. So we've had another email and
somebody has listened. This is Christopher. He's
listened to our podcast all the way back from
the beginning and he's enjoyed it. He said it's
like meeting up with a couple of friends in a
coffee shop. So that's so nice. That's lovely.
He's a very brave man. Yes, he's a brave and
kind man. Yes. And he says that Nathan, you've
inspired him to go back to his original research
of 15 years ago and check all his very early
data. Then generation by generation, he's building
his tree on Ancestry and he's doing this manually
rather than uploading a GIGCOM. And he's hoping
that the new Ancestry tree will hopefully be
very useful as he's just received his autosomal
DNA test results. And one match has come out
as his closest relation. So he's looking forward
to diving into that as well. So it's interesting
all these different paths that he's been doing
from history for so many years and starting to
go back from the beginning, building your tree
anew. That's something I started in. 2020 yeah
i haven't finished it yet i made a start but
it's definitely i i'd agree with christopher
that it felt like a really enjoyable project
to do and i had such fun revisiting everything
and yeah that's really nice to hear as well um
it's probably good to like do a refresh isn't
it if you've got such a lot of research starting
again and then ancestry is great you're going
to end up finding extra things that You might
not have made connections before, but you've
got the information and suddenly it presents
itself on Ancestry for you, hopefully. That's
lovely to hear. It's really lovely, isn't it?
Yeah. And even just looking at the documents
that you already had, that's just fun, looking
at them again and going, I can't believe I didn't
notice that before. I had lots of occasions of
that. I wonder if Christopher did too. Yeah,
you're making me feel a bit sweaty now. I just
remember my mum telling me about... a bunch of
documents that um i got excited about that i
haven't looked at yes i need to go do that and
photograph that i'm i'm talking about like there's
an advert for my great great granddad's fish
and chip shop i need to photograph that and get
it on ancestry because that's a nice little bit
of history isn't it like yeah i didn't even know
about until a couple of weeks ago yes every time
you eat fish and chips with your kids you'll
say did you know our ancestor blah blah had a
fish and chip shop just keep weaving the family
history in to a little Everyday occurrences.
Little nuggets that get them interested. Yeah.
Yeah. Nice. What have you been up to then? Well,
breaking news. I did what I said I was going
to do. Yeah. Shocker. I know. I've started a
genealogy journal. Oh, lovely. Yeah. Oh, I'm
a bad lad. I was going to do this too. Oh, I'm
such a bad man. Well, you said you were going
to go and get a new notebook and I said I already
had one. It turned out I didn't have one. I hadn't
already started and I wanted a brand new notebook.
So right now I've got a brand new notebook. I've
written at the front, my genealogy journal. I've
written the date I started it and I've said why
I want to do it. So I want to keep a diary of
my genealogy related things each week. So it's
not like a log, but it's just a kind of rough
note to myself. So at the end of the year, so
a year from now, I can look back and go, oh,
yes, I was doing this. I was doing that. So have
it all in one place. And it's not as dry as looking
through like a master research log, which is
very facty. And it's not as waffly as looking
through other random notes attached to all different
random ancestors. I've only done one entry so
far because I have to do one entry a week. Yeah.
So I've done my entry for the first week. And
then I also realized what was going to happen.
So my week was up a few days ago. I realised
that as I did subsequent research, if I tried
to reflect what I did in the last week, I'm never
going to remember. So then I'm allowed to do
a mind map. So I have my entry for the week,
which is like me writing blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the start of
each week, I start a new mind map. And on there,
I just write a little note to myself what I've
been doing. So then when I come and do my summary
all in one splurge at the end of the week, I've
got my mind map to go, oh, yeah, I was doing
this. Oh, yeah, I was doing that. It's good,
isn't it? Sounds awesome. I'm very proud of you.
And it's on paper with a pen. I know I'm in dinosaur
mode today. I'm just loving the lack of tech.
You're not in dinosaur mode. It's brilliant.
I feel really embarrassed. I was championing
this idea last week, wasn't I? I was so excited
about it. I can do this. It's attainable. I totally
forgot. But the difference with me and you, Nathan,
is once you start it, you will consistently keep
it up, whereas... me unless i keep this genealogy
journal on my desk i'll forget i did it i'll
find it in three months time ago oh yeah i was
going to do that that was a lovely idea so i
have to keep it in sight to remind me that it's
a little project that i'm deeply in love with
which i am yeah i'll keep you in line okay thanks
yeah well it's it probably actually works out
well for us because obviously if we fill that
in weekly it's going to help us with like what
we're talking about on the podcast as well so
we can like Check in with each other on it, on
the podcast. Can I tell you the cool things which
have happened to me recently then? Please do,
because I need to distract myself of how bad
I am. So one, you were talking about getting
your kids, or I was talking about getting your
kids into family history, like ways to tempt
them. Anyway, the other day, completely out of
the blue, one of my daughters emailed me and
she said whether I could upload a picture of
my mum when my mum was a little kid. Could I
share it with her? on Facebook Messenger or whatever.
And because I've digitized all my photos, ping,
I could just wrap it over to her really quickly.
So because I felt like she was a captive audience,
she was in the kind of the, what's the word?
Like the really cute space of family history
where you just want to share old photos. I was
like, I don't want to waste this opportunity.
So then I splurged loads of other family history
photos over to her of my mum as a little kid.
Anyway, she's going to make a display and put
them in her house. So that's lovely. Like print
them out. Make a nice black and white display.
She's very arty like you, so I'm sure it'll look
great. A friend of mine got in touch because,
this is sad, but one of her friends had died
and needed to track down her mum's grave. And
her mum had died when she was a child back in
the 1940s. So I was busy online just trying to
track down where the grave was. And I found the
burial register, but I couldn't actually find
the grave. And I was like... reach out to the
local Family History Society, which for my friend
is Cambridgeshire Family History Society. Anyway,
she emailed them that night and the next day
they got back to her with the burial plot so
that she could then go and take her friend's
ashes to lay them on her, scatter them on her
mum's grave. Isn't that amazing? Shout out to
the Family History Society though. Brilliant,
yeah. Really kind and really quick. Nice sense
of community there. That's lovely. Yeah. And
I said, just get in touch and I'm sure they can
help. I was, you know, they're all volunteers
and to turn that around that quickly. Yeah, that's
really good. Even you volunteering your time
as well. It's nice to be able to do that for
a friend, isn't it? It's lovely. Well, but also
whenever I do volunteer my time, like when somebody
does ask me something, then I do always love
doing it. I find it really fun. And to be honest.
Sometimes I know the answers off the top of my
head and sometimes I don't. And so it is one
of those things like it's a classic volunteer.
The benefit of volunteering is you always learn
something that you have the benefit of going
on a little learning journey because you don't
want to let somebody else down. You're like,
I've got to find the answer to this workout.
You know what, how they can accomplish what they
need to accomplish. So it's always you always
benefit. You do. So it's not so it's not I'm
not saying that volunteers aren't kind, but that's.
an incentive to volunteer that you yeah it can
like just reaffirm your research knowledge as
well for yourself like oh i can do this i've
remembered this skill and then you can apply
it to other things later on yes all it all tucks
away doesn't it and all adds up in the big picture
and then what else happened um oh on my own actual
family history yeah then i i know i know i had
two big learning points um so i'm busy doing
my out down tree. I'm in Pennsylvania with the
Lintons and the Olivers and so these are my great
-grannies, aunties, children and grandchildren
and I kept finding my great -grannies, aunties,
grandson, Edward. Well, I didn't find him as
a child with the family. Once I got the hang
of him, then I managed to piece together his
life. So it turned out that he, I found him in
1930 in the Penn State School, Pennhurst State
School. And I was like, oh, he must be a teacher.
And I was looking across to find out what sort
of teacher he was. And in the occupation column,
it just said none. And then nobody in the occupation
column had. an occupation they were all none
and I was like wait a minute so they're all in
a school and nobody's got an occupation I was
like but he's he was 30 by then I was like so
how is he so old and he's in a school and he
hasn't got what's happening here so I had to
google Pennhurst State School and there was actually
um an asylum for people who had like broad mental
health issues so the terms of the day which we
would find really offensive today but they would
call them feeble -minded Even people who had
epilepsy, which we wouldn't put at all in that
category nowadays, it was a big move to basically
institutionalise people, stop them having care
at home and institutionalise them. So the Pennhurst
State School got set up in the early 1900s and
with a really promising kind of brief. to start
with but as with so many of these institutions
it all deteriorated over time and although it
said that the people had no occupation they were
actually effectively almost used as it was a
emotive phrase but like slave labor to build
the asylum and to build additional wings to do
to do farming on the asylum which i guess could
be nice doing gardening and growing veg and things
but they was a pretty tough existence so i found
him there so that was That was a massive learning
journey for me. Yeah. Sounds it. Yeah. And it
makes you wonder how much. So he is my great
granny's auntie's grandson. Then I'm thinking,
so does my, so the direct ancestor to this is
my great granny's granny. And so did my great
granny's granny get letters back to Ireland about.
him was she still alive and you need to remember
that I do know whether she is alive or not I
can't remember off the top of my head I think
she probably wouldn't have been alive but she
might have been alive when he was born yeah but
she wouldn't have known what happened to him
later in his life because as a I'm a granny and
you worry about everyone if anyone who's a descendant
they get put on the worry list and you just worry
about them yeah so if I had been her I'd be worrying
about him that he was all right in his in his
institution and everything so that's one learning
journey that I just had no idea. That was the
first time I'd come across somebody in kind of
an asylum situation. Then I had lots of firsts
actually this week. Then I also found my first
criminal. Oh, wow. Yes, so that's my granny's
uncle. What a family. It's all going on. What
sort of criminal was it then? Yes, so he... was
a criminal who got caught stealing a ton of coal.
A ton? I know. I mean, we get logs delivered
to our house, not coal, but a ton of coal is
big. It's a big pile and it takes, hmm, I don't
know, probably half an hour to stack away. It's
not a quick job. No. Yeah. I mean, what, did
he do one piece at a time in his pocket? I don't
know. I need to find out further details. So
that's my first criminal. Well, the first criminal
that I found. And then my other first was so
back to this Edward guy who was in the asylum.
I kept getting instances. Originally, I kept
getting instances of him turning up in finding
a draft card for him on Ancestry. And I kept
thinking, oh, interesting. He must have served
in the military, must have served in the Second
World War or whatever, judging by his age. But
I kept dismissing that because I was like, I'm
not on with that at the moment. I don't need
to go down those side shoots. I'm just sticking
with trying to. get the people's births, build
them forward, hopefully get a marriage, hopefully
get children, keep building my tree forward.
That's my goal. Sometimes building them forward,
finding that they died without any children.
That's the end of my line as far as the building
the tree forwards and down to find the descendants,
which your DNA matches today. Just recapping
in case anyone hasn't heard that waffle before.
So I kept ignoring this draft card. But then
because once I'd pieced together all this other
stuff about him in the asylum. So this is like
it feels like a bit of a rabbit hole, but it
was really important to understand him. So once
I'd understood this and that he stayed in the
asylum his whole life, he wasn't married. He
didn't have children, inevitably because of the
way he was. His life was dictated. um anyway
so then i looked at the draft card because i
was like oh this is confusing though so how was
he served in the military maybe they were so
desperate for people they released them from
the asylum this is me just going to surmise mode
which is one of my specialities then um so i
looked at this draft card and on there it said
it gave the definition to scrawl had a very kind
of formal little type draft card but scrawled
across it in handwriting written the word feeble
-minded so that's harsh to read for me it was
also useful because although i'd got the broad
picture of what the asylum was set up for. I
didn't know his precise reason why he was in
there. He could have been in there for epilepsy.
So having it on the draft card, that was interesting.
That was his reason for being incarcerated. And
then it also made me realise how ignorant I was
because I was looking at these military records
from the point of view of a UK perspective. So
I think this is why I make good in the muddle
because I'm used to us having a volunteer army
on the whole. We only have a conscription occasionally
when there's those major wars on national service,
that sort of idea. So all the military records
we have for people who served. So when you find
your ancestor popping up with a military record,
they've served. Whereas in America, they've got
these draft cards where they're basically drafting
people up to serve. So they draft everybody.
And some people are draft dodgers. mentioning
no names but some people are and then um this
guy wasn't a draft dodger but obviously he wasn't
fit to serve so when he got his draft card when
he was 18 it just got returned to the um military
saying that he was feeble -minded so clearly
you wouldn't have been suitable for serving in
the military so that made me realize how ignorant
i was which was back to another point which i'm
always banging on about to other people to do
and clearly i didn't do myself When you get faced
with a record you don't know, don't just try
and search the thing and then see what records
you get. Remember to read about the record. It's
very different as well when it's a different
country and a different culture and you've got
different ways of life. Obviously, you don't
think America is that different to England, but
just that conscription thing, it's instantly
changing, isn't it? It's how it looks. That's
fascinating. I'm quite jealous of all of that.
It's all really cool and interesting to know
about. It is really fun, isn't it? Yeah. So apologies
to anyone if everything I said is obvious. But
for me, it was really exciting. These just new
discoveries of things. Yeah. New discoveries.
Yeah. No, that's really cool. I want to go on
one of these adventures. I'm sick of finding
people's death dates. There's no adventures in
those. Do you know what you could do then, Nathan?
And you'll have a really good justification for
doing it. So remind me again, you found all of
your two times great grandparents and all of
your three times great grandparents? Yes, that's
correct. Perfect. So you're in the same position
as me. So what I'm doing is I've got my three
times great grandparents and rather than just
trying to build backwards, and I have got some
of the preceding generations. Since the beginning
of the year, I've been actually concentrating,
not just doing the occasional little dabble.
I've been concentrating on work, starting with
all of my three times great grandparents, finding
all of their descendants, so all of their children,
then finding all of their children's marriages,
all of their children's children, all of their
children's children's marriages, building the
tree forward and down. And of course, it does
get exponentially bigger because some of these
people die young. Some of the people die and
only have a couple of children. Some of the people
have 12 children. So you never know what you're
going to get. Partly because lots of my ancestors
were in Ireland and Scotland, but I think it
will be the same in England as well. And partly
because I find lots of them in America, lots
of these descendants in America or going to America.
Yeah? Yeah. And Canada as well. not not very
many to australia but american and canada are
really popular for my lot you potentially will
find when you do your down and out research yeah
you're going to find that you are get take you
do get taken overseas to um you know the major
countries that um british britain's had connections
with over time english -speaking countries australia
new zealand canada america Yeah. I mean, everything
you've just said just sounds overwhelming, though.
That's a lot of stuff, isn't it? But you're right.
And I know I think I mentioned it before. I've
got somebody on my father's side and I can't
remember exactly where and they emigrated to
Canada. And I was going to dive into that at
some point. But that. That is part of the down
and out scenario, isn't it? So maybe I could
nip into that one as a starting point, because
it does seem like a lot like there's a lot of
people on your tree. And like you say, you can
have up to 12 children. It does seem terrifying.
Well, not even up to, sometimes more. Oh, boy.
Yeah. And one kind of little bit I forgot is
partly I feel as though I'm getting a lot of
people who have emigrated because of where my
ancestors lived in the British Isles. But partly
because DNA testing is so popular in America,
that's why you, after your DNA matches, lots
of them are going to leave back. There's a big
take -up there, so you're going to have a disproportionate
number of American DNA matches, which I think
is just interesting the way you do. It is interesting.
I was having a random muse the other day, and
this actually just might sound like nonsense,
but I always thought I was probably very French.
And obviously, France don't do the DNA testing,
do they? So that's like a massive potential missing
part of... Of my history. Am I talking nonsense?
I've got no evidence of anyone moving to France
or moving from France, but obviously I'd have
to get further, further back. So you're not talking
nonsense. So you may or may not be right because
genealogy hunches and kind of allying ourselves
to certain identities and cultural identities.
I know where I've got this from, actually. Ward
is meant to be like a French word for like guard
or something like that. That's meant to be the
origin of the name. So I think as a kid, I've
run with that and been like, oh yeah, I'm a little
bit French. I mean, I'm also a Viking and look
at where that took me. So I'll just be quiet.
You might find that you have got French dishes.
It could be from the Normans coming over, couldn't
it? Yeah. Well, that's kind of what I thought.
It's kind of logical, isn't it? Mm -hmm. Yeah.
But equally, it's still kind of logical that
I could have been a Viking, but I'm not. And
I'm not bitter about it at all. No. No. Or maybe
they came over later on, like centuries later.
Yeah. Because another thing, as well as loving
to be a Viking, lots of people want to have Huguenot
connections because it has a certain kind of
glamour and cachet. Right. Okay. Do you know
what? I'm quite proud to be from Yorkshire. I'll
take that. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you've come
from Yorkshire as far as you've traced so far,
and it may be depending on what's available to
you to research, but we all come from everywhere
anyway, don't we? It's a weird thing to wrap
my head around, and again, this is probably another
stupid statement, but all of... No, it's a stupid
statement. I'm realising this at the time. All
of my family come to Yorkshire. So this is stupid.
But, like, no, I'm not talking. I'm actually
going to edit this out of the podcast. No, it's
not stupid. It's not stupid. It makes your family
come to Yorkshire because Yorkshire, so you've
researched so far back to the early 1800s, haven't
you? Yeah. And some of them are already in Yorkshire,
but then everybody of that generation comes to
Yorkshire. It's not like... I'm not researching
the 1800s and people are just living in Scotland.
It's like, we're in Scotland, now we're going
to get to Yorkshire. And I think I've got a couple
in Newcastle and some in Manchester, but everybody's
just coming to Yorkshire, which makes sense because
that's where I'm from. But it's interesting to
chart that lots of people migrated to Yorkshire.
For work. Because it's a hive of industry. Yeah.
I'll be quiet. No, I think this is what's fun
about family history, isn't it? Yeah, I guess
so. But surely if everybody's looking at themselves
as like, not ground zero, as like the pinnacle,
whatever it is, the hub, the centre, then everything
is going to be drawn into you to wherever you
live. Or is that just me? Is that just because
I'm so Yorkshire that it just happened? It's
just you, because you're so Yorkshire. So for
you, for example, I don't even... For me, I'm
just British. I can't feel any more specific
than that. So when people meet me, I sound really
English. And anyone who was Welsh, Irish or Scottish
should go, yeah, you're English. But because
I like doing my family history and one set of
my grandparents lived in Scotland and my granny
died in 2012 and I've got other relations who
live in Scotland. So I definitely feel that bit
of me. I feel very fond of Scotland. Like when
you're talking about those kind of that bonded
feeling and my family and I sound like a southerner.
I sound like if you use a Yorkshire person, you
go, gosh, not just English. She's a southerner,
wouldn't you? I don't think I would with you.
I think you've got a very neutral. OK. Yeah.
No, I wouldn't say. You don't sound Southern
to me. Okay. Interesting. Okay. But if I go back
to the end of the First World War and I plot
where everybody's living, then they're all in
Lancashire and Scotland and Ireland. And so the
furthest south I have is Lancashire. Yeah. And
you get the end of the First World War. And loads
of people moved south, partly because, so one
of my great grandpas was an engineer. So he's
working for the Ministry of Works down in London.
He did engineering work in the First World War.
He carried on with that into war. So he was based
there. Another of my grandparents who's Scottish,
they were born. definitely my great granny was
born in scotland i can't remember my great i
think my great in edinburgh i think my great
grandpa was also born in edinburgh i can't remember
off my head anyway he'd worked overseas in kenya
and all sorts of things like that and they retired
it was my great great grandpa and my great i
can't remember which one anyway both of them
they retired to the south coast of england so
people suddenly just keep coming south they just
leave the north in their droves my other great
grandparents are out in south america And what
are my other great -grandparents doing? Oh, my
other great -grandparents, they split up. So
one of them is in Ireland and the other one is
living in Liverpool. So it's just that post -First
World War period, the whole being established
up in the north of England and Scotland and Ireland,
suddenly it just explodes and they leave. And
by doing my down -and -out tree, the generation
before that, they'd already been leaving fast
and furious, just my branch hadn't. My branch
hadn't left. You know, I talk about my great
-granny's auntie and all those other ones, and
they're all going over to Canada and everything.
So the generation before my great -granny, my
great -great -grandparents' generation, they're
already leaving Ireland and Scotland. Like, can't
get out quick enough because of their lines of
work. Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? I do
think I'm talking nonsense still, but... Because
both sides of my paternal and maternal family,
both sets of family came to Yorkshire and they
all stayed quite quickly. I just presume everybody's
family's like that. Yeah. It's very strange.
It is. And then my family gets even more unrooted
because then both my grandpas served in the RAF.
They were both born in 1920. Second World War
starts. They're very young. They're 19 and they
sign up. join the RAF, serve in the RAF through
the Second World War. Both of them luckily suffer
no long -term, you know, they both live, get
married, have loads of kids, but they stay in
the RAF, that's the point, after the war. So
they continue to move house the whole time. Then
my dad was in the army, so he moved house the
whole time. Right. So you're quite a nomadic
then. Yes, got no roots. Do you actually identify
with any particular area then? No. I mean, I
couldn't define it more than just British. British.
Interesting. Because I think I'm proper out and
out Yorkshire. Yeah. But then I was talking to
an American friend the other day and she called
me posh Yorkshire, which I feel like I'm just
really Yorkshire, but apparently I'm not as Yorkshire
as I think. I'll take it as a compliment, posh
Yorkshire. It's funny as well because probably
our two versions of what it means to be British
are going to be just two of many. There are going
to be some people who have really, really strong
roots to a place and then there's going to be
others of us who have kind of more widespread
roots within and without British Isles. Yeah.
And it's going to keep changing like that. We're
just like a growing fungi. I think that's what
I'm trying to say but doing it very badly. It's
like... I have been looking at all these families
that are part of my family, of course, but there's
no, there doesn't seem to be like a good solid
set time where my family moved here and lived
in Scotland for a hundred years. And then they
came down. It's all, everybody just came down
to Yorkshire and they got to Yorkshire and they
stayed in Yorkshire. So there are strands that
are getting out of Yorkshire. And obviously this
probably will change as I get further back, if
I can get further back, because obviously they're
not in Yorkshire at that point. In quote unquote
recent history, the last 200 years. Yeah, that's
great. It's all Yorkshire based. I'm just talking
nonsense, aren't I? No, I think people, Yorkshire
people are renowned for being very proud of being
Yorkshire, aren't they? And maybe that makes
sense. They don't want to leave. They're like,
Yorkshire's lovely. Why would you want to leave?
Dad's own country, of course. Yeah. So we've
kind of been busy thinking your way about family
history, haven't we? Do you know what we've got
coming up soon? So if anybody's felt like this
is an interminable waffle from Nathan and Helen
today, in a few weeks' time it's going to be
very exciting because Dr Sophie Kay is going
to come on our podcast. Oh, cool, yeah. Lucid,
organised thoughts. That's what we need. We need
some of those in our lives. We absolutely do.
And so in June, we're running a lovely course
with her at the moment that we have run before.
And it's really good to help people with their
search and research skills. And it's called the
Research Skills Studio. Anyway, in June, we're
going to be running a brick walls boot camp.
Right. That sounds perfect. It's really good,
isn't it? And it's addressing all those sorts
of questions. You know, when you find. you found
some search results and you're not sure whether
you're looking at one, two or more people and
trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff and
say, yes, is this my ancestor or not? So that's
going to be exciting stuff. So keep listening
to the podcast and she'll be here soon. Yeah,
that'll be good. Good to learn from that one.
Yeah, really good. She's so organised about how
she thinks about things and I love how she gives...
Like her tactics. She gives some funky names
to help us remember them. So then you can go,
right, I need to draw on this tactic to help
me work through that problem. Sounds really useful.
I need a bit more order in my life. So what do
you think about your genealogy journal? Are you
going to do it? Because you were very excited
last week. Yeah, I am actually really disappointed
in myself. It got me. When you said you'd done
it, I actually was like, oh, my God. I was so
into the idea and I feel so bad that I've not
done it. So, yes, that is a priority. I think
it's such a good idea just for my own sanity,
just to have those few little notes, even if
it's like three lines of text. Yeah, I'm angry
at myself about this. So, yes, that's definitely
my homework for this week. I think you could
make a really lovely one because you could potentially
even include little drawings. Yeah. I mean, did
you see my sketch of, did you see my photograph
of my research log thing the other day? It was
awful. Don't put pressure on me. I'll be happy
to make some notes. But I like what you've said
about the spider diagram because obviously without
turning it into a research log, it's nice to
know where you want to take it or where you were
thinking about taking it at the time. Because
like you say, if you reflect back in years to
come, like, oh, I was thinking this. And I'm
going to do that. Did I do that? And then obviously,
as you read on, you'll find out more. So I really
love this idea. So I will give myself a slap
on the wrist and I will get myself to a stationery
shop and get a lovely, lovely journal. So that's
easy homework. And then that's always nice buying
new stationery, isn't it? Always. I love stationery.
I do want to research these middle names. It's
a rabbit hole that I think I won't say I'm going
to do just yet because I've been such a bad lad.
I need to get these death dates done so I can
forget about them. But I've got a good weekend
where I've actually got a free block and I'm
literally thinking it's going to be a family
history weekend. Nice. So I'm actually quite
excited. I think I'm going to get a few full
stops for some factual stuff sorted and hopefully
start digging and tinkering. I'll make no promises,
though, because clearly I get really enthusiastic
and forget what I'm doing. Unbelievable. What
about you? What are you going to do? This is
going to carry on. Probably it's going to be
10 years time and I'll still be going, I'm just
going to continue researching my out and down
tree. So I'm going to, that's what I'm going
to do. And I don't know where it's going to take
me. So me saying I don't like unexpected surprises,
but sticking within that big, broad parameter
of researching my three times great grandparents,
all of their descendants, that's what I'm doing.
I think it's great. You are getting more exciting
things. I'm getting such exciting things. Than
I am. That whole American thing is amazing. I'm
fascinated by it all. I love America. Just to
get into that history side of it is cool. Whereas
I'm just like, I'm just looking for a death record.
It's just boring. I'm kind of loving being so
unknowledgeable as well. how i'd accustomed to
but i'm i'm used to that feeling but it is really
it really it feels like an adventure because
i don't know anything really yeah yeah it's exciting
to learn about isn't it whereas i think i'm stuck
in the meat and two veg of it all it's like yeah
yeah look at this document press this button
do this yeah yes learn things it's fun Yes. So
I think you should join me on the out and down
adventure, down and out adventure. I think I
might. I might do a little case today. I might
try and find the person that emigrated to Canada,
which actually could take me an entire weekend
to find anyway, because I can't remember who
it was. And maybe I'll try and follow that out.
Once again, I'm going to make no promises. Good.
That's fine. I'm writing it down. Canada lady.
No relation to Tankman. Fun. Cool. Yeah. Well,
thanks for listening, everybody. If you want
to keep up with us, then do sign up to our free
e -newsletter, which is family -tree .co .uk
forward slash newsletter hyphen sign hyphen up.
Well done. Yes, I've eventually learned what
a newsletter sign -up is. And then if you want
to get in touch with me and Nathan, if you email...
me at helen .t at family -tree .co .uk and you're
welcome to email Nathan too or I forward things
on to Nathan immediately whenever anyone emails
us because we love getting contact from podcast
listeners, finding out what you're getting up
to and also receiving your helpful hints for
us too. Definitely, they're very useful. Good
community we've got here, I love it. Yes. Thanks
for listening then. Happy researching. Thank
you.