Hello everybody and welcome to Family Tree Talk,
your favourite Family Tree podcast. I'm Nathan
Ward and with me as always is... Helen Tuffy.
Hello there. Hi Nathan. Hi Helen, you alright?
I am alright. Well, to be honest, I feel really
frazzled, but I'm alright. I'm okay. I'm okay.
Yeah? Yes. Is it Family Tree Frazzled or just
Life Frazzled? It's family history frazzled.
It's slightly frazzling me on every front at
the moment. Oh, wow. Tell me more. Well, I think
I've got a bit of a cold, so it's making my head
a bit thick. And so even just doing my own ordinary
family history, just to do my little project
to build my family tree forward and out, blah,
blah, blah. Even that, I'm just like, have I
done any research before? I can't find them.
I can't tell which ones my person is. Whatever.
And then nothing seems to be falling into place.
So that's just being a bit painful. That's okay.
And then a few people recently have asked me
to help them with their family history, which
I love doing. And I'm just like a complete sucker
for it. I'm like the sort of person, lots of
us are, when someone asks for some help, we're
like, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it.
I'll find the answer. And then I am finding things
for them, but I'm like, oh, I don't think I really
want to find this for them. Right. Is it dark?
It's dark. It's really dark. And I did forewarn
people. I'm like, if you look, you have to really
be prepared. You could find anything. And we
all know that. But knowing something in principle
and then experiencing it is a different thing,
isn't it? It's tricky. Yeah. So I'm facing all
the challenges. And my third challenge is, I
don't know what's happened to me, but I have
become, I'm just appalled at myself. My research
look is just not happening. I'm just flipping
around in a right panic and I'm in a fluster.
Welcome to the party, pal. We are bad people.
Do as we say, not as we do. Definitely. Oh, goodness.
Anyway, how about you? Well, I think this must
be the theme for today's podcast because I'm
all over the place. Simple tasks seem very confusing.
I've got very little done. on my family tree
because I've just confused myself, the more I
try to rectify the problems or look somewhere
else, the more I add to my sort of like, well,
I don't know what I'm doing here. This is just
weird. Everything's just seemed really hard this
week. Maybe it's just the moon. Who knows? But
yeah. Can I tell you something else? This kind
of made me laugh, but you know, you're like,
I give up now. So having done my own useless
research and not getting anywhere with one of
my ancestors, I was like, okay. I'm going to
look at somebody else's tree. And I don't really
like doing that, but I did. And then the ancestor
who I can't find was born in 1875. And I have
their birth register entry, born in Scotland.
But the person's tree I looked at has them marrying
their wife called Catherine three years before
they were born. I'm just like, oh, man, I'm not
the only one who's confused. Oh, man. Well, we've
all been there. I mean, I said it last week,
didn't I? I had a guy who died a year before
his child was born. Yeah, it's so easy to do,
isn't it? It's terrifying. It is. I'm going to
start with some positivity, though, even though
we're just all getting confused. Yeah. What?
Guess what, Helen? Oh, I don't even want to hear
it. I know what the answer is. I'm back up to
9 .9. Oh. I thought you were going to say you
were elite. I'm slightly relieved you're only
9 .9, but she says meanly. It's all mean, mean
and rubbish. How dare you? Yeah, no, like I said
last week, I must have been on the edge, like
literally add one ancestor and it'll drop until
I put my details in because I didn't do much
at all and it's gone back up again. I did look
at some of the hints it suggested, like I did
have a duplicate and then I added a record from
my granddad, which is a bit weird because there's
obviously... The more recent people, it's harder
to add crosses to. And it's gone back up. So
that's my bit of positive news. Shall I delve
into my weirdness now? Yes. Can we quickly stick
with tree scores? So mine, I can't remember what
it was before, but I was pleased to note that
it was nine and I have been in the eights for
a while. And I can't remember if I'd gone up
to nine a while ago or whether I hadn't. Anyway,
when I saw it was nine, I said, oh, I'm pleased
about that. Oh, that's brilliant. I think you
said you were in the eights last time. I think
I was in the eights. I don't think I've been
in the nines before. So I think this is a chink
of light in my dark tunnel of family history
at the moment. You don't need a research log.
Anyway, you crack on with how you're getting
on. I mean. This could be like the worst conversation
ever because it's so confusing. It isn't. It
probably really isn't. I'm going to take notes
while you talk. That's the only way I can follow
the train of thought. I'm not even sure I'm going
to be able to follow my train of thought here.
So I got all my third time great grandparents.
We've discussed this, blah, blah, blah. And then
I wanted to obviously, it was, it was tree score
related, but I thought, what, what's my next
goal? I'm going to step back and I'm going to
try and get the death dates for all my second
time's great grandparents. because I'm actually
missing quite a lot of their death dates so I
started on that path and stumbled quite quickly
to be honest I'm really struggling to find death
dates so once I've gone through my little rant
it might be worth you telling me actually what
I should be doing or because I'm finding it hard
to find and I too have been cheeky cheeky and
looked at other people's trees because they seem
to have the death dates and I don't but Obviously,
I've not written them in my tree because I don't
do that. Anyway, so I tried a few, failed dramatically,
couldn't find the death date. And then I got
to Joseph Ward and Mary Ann Blackburn. And I'm
like, cool, I'm going to look for these guys.
And I must have had a bit of progress with it
because I stuck with them. But the problem is,
and this is my own fault, my own confusion, Mary
Ann Blackburn's parents. I called Joseph and
Mary as well. So I've got Joseph and Mary and
Mary's parents are also called Joseph and Mary.
This then led me to find a little naughty naughty
that I'd done where on my third time great grandparents,
I didn't have Mary's surname. So she was called
Mary Blackburn. So now I have two Mary Blackburns
in my tree. Ancestry is having a hissy fit, throwing
me up hints and all sorts. for the same person
because it's two different people. Oh, sorry,
the same hints for two different people. It was
all a bit chaotic. So I went and found, eventually,
I found, I eventually found her surname again.
I might have cheated and looked at someone else's
tree, but then I, because I had that hint of
what the actual name was, Ancestry was actually
bringing it up, saying this is probably the parent's
name. But then I went and found documents that
related to the marriage of Joseph Blackburn and
Mary J. Dickman. This is actually what I did.
I was a good lad here. I did some research. I
think I might have even found a document and
put it on as a source, which, you know, I said
I wasn't going to do. And then I said, oh, I'm
going to do it. So I did that. I went and found
them on Free BMD. And it was it was in Newcastle,
I think they got married. So I think I must have
had the reference for one of them on Ancestry,
you know, where it says, like, 10B, page 107.
I had that. So I went and compared it for Joseph
Blackburn on Free BMD, and it gave me the same
reference. But I'm like, the chances of that
page having two people with those names is very
slim. So I'm going to take that as gospel, and
that's when they got married, and that's her
surname. So that's how I discovered that. Quite
happy with that. But in trying to untangle the
death dates and who was who, I was just getting
so confused. Again, this was because it was Mary
Blackburn and Mary Blackburn. And I was just
getting confused. I was like, oh, she married
Joseph and they got married in Newcastle. That's
fine. And then I look at it and I'm on the wrong
tree. I'm on the wrong layer. They got married
in Carver Church, obviously. And I'm like, well,
if he got married in Carver Church, then he can't
be the parents because they got married after
the children were born. And I was just confusing
the two layers so much. All because I'd put this
one surname in that I didn't have. Well, you
know, I put a married surname. It just sent me
round and round and I was in chaos. And I started
writing my notes in the front of my notebook.
And then I decided halfway through, I was going
to write my notes in the back of my notebook.
So my notes are in two different locations. For
no apparent reason other than that my mind was
frazzled. It was just a big mess. That's it,
that's my story. Well, you get at least one point.
I mean, you might get five points out of ten
for at least writing down some notes. That's
good. Then, from the top, should we do a... Let's
try and work it out together. What would you
do next time so that you didn't have this headache?
I think we have talked about it. So you've popped
in her married name. Going back to your three
times great granny and you didn't have a surname,
you popped in her married surname in the surname
thing. And that was one of the things which helped
to get you in a muddle. And what would you do
next time if you didn't know her surname? Not
put it in. I don't normally do that. I'm a bit
of a stickler for all that stuff. I don't know
why I did it. And because because I saw it in
there, I just presumed I'd done it correctly.
But oh, my God. Do you know what as well? This
could be a prime example. So I remember we have
actually had this conversation weeks or months
ago about what to do when you don't know the
mother's name. And just it's fine to leave it
blank until you have got some. It's better to
leave it blank until you actually do find out.
Partly, as you say, you think you've you think
you've verified, you think you've done due diligence
to get that name in there on your tree. If you
have put it on your tree. So this could be a
prime example of research you did earlier on
in your research journey when you just gradually
just learn tips and tricks and skills and everything,
don't you? And it could be something you added
at that stage and then you went off to other
branches of your tree. In the meantime, your
research skills get better and better. And then
you go back to your earlier research you did
and you go, what am I doing? Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
It could have been that. it's just because it
is very unlike me to actually well sorry yes
the current version of me it's very unlike the
current version of me to actually do that so
yeah early dolls maybe I got a quick a quick
lead and just plonked it in like I can imagine
it maybe it was on the census and I was just
like yeah yeah Marianne Blackburn Joseph Blackburn
tick tick tick yes add them to my tree without
considering that that wasn't her maiden name
and I'm also impressed about you using the volume
number and the page number when you're looking
at the marriage indexes to um cross -check you
know help shore up the fact that you're that
you've got that marital couple there yeah cool
but that's my hack for not spending money yeah
it's like i want the marriage certificate but
if i know they're on the same page in the same
volume on the same year this is how they are
getting married aren't they yeah if you've got
the information from elsewhere Yes, I needed
information for one of them because it did for
some reason appear on Ancestry for the other.
Yeah. So it's quite helpful. I think hacks to
help stave off spending money are always to be
welcomed. Definitely. Well, I feel like looking
at my second time great grandparents, I'm going
to be spending a few pennies for the death dates.
Maybe. And should we have a little mull over?
I love hacks which save money, partly because
they enable all of us to crack on with our research,
even if it's getting near the end of the month
or something. We haven't got anything to hold
us up. Or if we've spent all our pocket money
for that month on Fabby History, then we can
carry on making discoveries. But do you want
to give me what... So let's say you did buy that
marriage certificate. What extra details would
you get which would be cool for your... For your
family tree, which you're not going to get by
just sticking with the index. I would get their
father's names. Yeah. Yeah. I would get some
witnesses. I would get the actual date of the
marriage. Yeah. Yes, it's everything. Oh, great.
This feels like a spontaneous test. It wasn't
supposed to be a test. But I think it's just
a useful exercise. It's partly useful for me.
I don't know any answers to them. Nathan's going
to tell me what he did and I'm just going to
ask him questions about it. The other thing is,
as well as ordering a marriage certificate, particularly
when we're thinking about the Victorian era,
when... There's still a lot of marriages happening
in, this is a big clue, in church situations.
Where else might we look for details of somebody's
marriage? We could look at the parish records.
Yay! I actually wouldn't have got that. But we
could, and what year was this again? I copped
it and you've mentioned a year, haven't you?
I haven't mentioned a year. It's going to be
post -1837, we know that, because you're talking
about free BMD, aren't you? Yeah, Joseph. This
is the irritation. Joseph G. Ward and Mary Ann
Blackburn were born 1857 and 1868. So they got
married sometime after them. So the parish registers
will be nice and detailed and give you pretty
much the same information. And it depends whether
they've been digitised on ancestry, because that's
the one that you currently... subscribe to but
otherwise you could look on other places you
can family search you could look on find my past
which has fantastic collections of parish registers
you could look in the local family history society
which you've mentioned a few times and sometimes
they will have records that they have made indexes
for so you might not see the beautiful old scanned
images in the parish register but they might
have typed them up with extensive detail in there
It depends on how much detail they decided to
include. But you could become a member of your
local family history society, which won't cost
very much, like £10, £20 for the whole year.
So that's like a month of an ancestry membership.
And you could get lots of access to members -only
material. You could also, if you were in luck,
see there's an online parish clerk for your area
of the country. So most areas of the country
don't have one. But if you have Lancashire ancestors,
you're in super luck because they have loads
of... typed up records, like typed up information
for all these things like parish registers. So
it's useful and free, really good. Sounds good
to me. I'm just trying to think of money -saving
hacks to keep the research ball rolling. Yeah.
I mean, it's more the death records that are
my big wrestle. Because death records are quite
tricky if you don't have a... I might be being
daft here, but if you don't have a will or you
don't have... Oh, I don't know. I just, I don't
know what records are giving me the death dates.
I think that's why I'm struggling. They're not
coming up in the hints. And then there are a
few burial records and I keep on getting this
UK and Ireland find a grave index thing. And
I look at them and there's a very concrete burial
and death date. But I can't look at a document
from that. And I can't. I found one, I think,
where it actually had the sun. The sun was referenced.
In fact, it might have actually been Mary J.
Blackburn. The sun was referenced anyway in.
the burial thing for her because he was then
buried in the same church with a different grave
somewhere so it linked and I was like all right
great I can do that I can 100 % say that's correct
but the other ones it's just like I want to say
it's correct but I'm not willing to put it on
my tree because there's no link to anybody else
or apart from maybe locality there's nothing
there I do I do agree with you I find um I find
like the national probate calendar um when you're
lucky enough to get them, they're a little nugget,
aren't they? They're like a little treasure cave
of information because there's so many details
you can cross -refer and feel confident that
it's your ancestor. And sometimes, as you say,
gravestones are really good when they have...
I didn't really mention gravestones, but gravestones
are really good for cross -referencing family
members. But it can be hard if you've got a common
name. It can be really hard to... Try and make
sure you've definitely got your person. Yeah.
And then, like, Ancestry doesn't like me at all.
When I go to look at Joseph George Ward, I know
I shouldn't take hints as the thing, but when
I go in there, it says, oh, you've got 20 hints
or something like that. You go in, every single
one's for somebody else who's married somebody
called Isabel. Not even in my area. It's just
all wrong. So every single hint's wrong. It's
like, I've got a possible death date. No, you
don't. That's not mine. And I know that's when
I should start searching myself properly. Do
you press ignore, ignore, ignore? No, actually,
maybe I should start doing that. I just sort
of look at them and just make some sort of muttering
sound under my breath and go off. No, yeah. Naughty.
So, yeah, I just feel it's been a bit of a stumbling
block with everything. I added... Joseph Blackburn,
that's, oh my God, Mary Ann Blackburn's dad.
It still confuses me. I know what I'm doing though,
apparently. I found his, Nathan pauses for great
effect. I found his, this is the one, I found
his marriage, didn't I? That's what I'm talking
about, to Mary J. Dickman, who I now know her
surname. Yeah. And... So I took a screen grab
of the image from Free BMD because I thought,
right, this isn't appearing on Ancestry. I need
to know how I found this information. So I'll
take that image and I'm going to make the bold
step and put it on my tree. So I've added it
to the timeline. So the image of it appears on
the timeline for the marriage. So I've attached,
I've put a fact. The fact is gets married to
Mary. I've attached the media, showing life story.
So that appears. But I feel like I've done it
wrong. Like it's not appearing in the middle
boxes of source. Oh, that's easy. All you need
to do is go to your middle columns. You're on
the person's profile on Ancestry. Go to the middle
column and then where it says source and there'll
be a little plus sign. Press that sign, add a
source and you can write what it is. So it's
a marriage index entry. And you can put the URL
that it's free BMD and you can put any other
details you have. So like the volume number and
the page number and any other details. We'll
have like a very quick source citation thing.
It's actually quite nice. It's not too overwhelming.
You can click through and get more fields if
you want to build a more precise source. But
anything is better than nothing. My normal philosophy
is just like... Please all of us try and add
our sources. And then you can go back to your
timeline where you've got that marriage detail
and the little image and you can edit it and
you can go add source at that point. And when
you go add source, it'll bring up a list of all
the sources that you have for that person because
you just created that source, haven't you? And
you'll just press add and then it will link the
source to the fact. Ah, right. That's really
good. I wish I wasn't telling you that, though,
because I think it might improve your tree score
yet further, having these really shored up facts.
And I shouldn't have said that. Can we just delete
that bit from the podcast? You're mean. You're
really mean. That's cool. I now got a little
line linking the other song. Yes, because you've
got a source for the fact. It's going to be so
unbearable when he gets to his elite score on
the Ancestry tree. I mean, I'm clearly not. I've
got so many missing death dates, but I am going
to add all my media now and do that. That's going
to be very exciting. Yeah. And it's really doable,
isn't it? I guess so. I mean, I'll go away from
this and then I'll be confused again and sort
of forget everything. But yeah, I like the sound
of that. We've had a little... calm myself down
an epiphany of so with my terrible research and
if i'm honest it's not just the last week i've
been falling off the wagon for a few weeks or
maybe even a few months maybe it's just not been
i haven't been doing very well with keeping organized
so um i think what i'm going to say what i'm
going to do i think this could really help you
as well because i think we've both been going
around in circles a little bit trying to accomplish
things and maybe we could be a bit more effective.
Are you concentrating, Nathan, or are you busy
adding in? No, I'm just, I'm just, I've found
something else that's wrong in my tree. Okay,
tell me what that is and then we'll go back to
my plan that I've got for both of us. Right,
so obviously I've just done, I've literally done
what we've said, adding this sauce, making it
link to them. And then I've just looked on his
timeline and his daughter was born six years
before. He got married. That's not impossible.
It might not be impossible. It might not be wrong.
But then there's the question of who the mother
is or if it's the same mother or if he was married
before. Well, that's okay. So you just need to
go through back to 3BMD or you need to go somewhere
where you can look for the mother's maiden name,
don't you, subjectively on the GRO site and just
keep searching on the dad's surname, the mother's
maiden name. for the place and the time period
and then you pull together a list of all the
kids. Honestly, it's these people. It's these
Joseph and Georges and the Marys all just getting
confused and muddled and just causing me chaos.
So he's saying she was born in Bradford. He was
born in Durham. He got married in Newcastle.
Why would she be born in Bradford? Everything
just feels wrong right now. Let's park that.
So you're looking at your tree, presumably, on
your computer, not on your phone. On my computer.
I'm almost in tears right now. So we can do this
thing, which we've said quite a few weeks, is
go and add a tag on them. Like put danger or
something. Create yourself your own custom tag
called dangerous entry or something. It might
be. Let me have a look. Let me pull up my own
system. Okay, I will do it. I've never done it,
so let me do it. So helpful. Because then if
you have something wrong in your tree and you're
kind of worried that you might even forget what
it is, because even with a not very big tree,
we end up with loads of people in there, don't
we? So then if we can just keep a note of what
it is that we're worried about, then that's got
to be a good plan, hasn't it? Yeah? I guess so.
I'm just, I'm broken. How we're going to add,
we're just mentioning this in case anyone hasn't
heard us bang on about tags before. So if you're
looking at your ancestry tree on your laptop
or desktop or whatever, then when you're looking
at somebody's profile, then you can add tags
and there'll be, it will say add tags somewhere
below their name in that little, the big gray
bar at the top. Somewhere below their name it
will say add tags or have a little edit pen so
you can edit tags. And then you can choose from
the tags that they already have. Out of the research
status tags that Ancestry have already drawn
up a list for you to choose from. So you could
choose whether you're actively researching someone,
whether they're a prioritised person, whether
they're unverified. So that could be a really
good one for you. Or you could even create your
own custom tag, which goes quicksand or danger
or whatever you want to call it. Something so
that you know that's what... And you could apply
that tag to all of those people who you're just...
worried about that maybe you've attached them
wrongly and then in the future you can search
on your tags and you can um bring up all the
people who you think are cause for concern that
the research isn't as good as you'd like and
if you in the future when that tag no longer
applies and you just remove the tag she is tagged
she is tagged with the word danger i'm a little
bit upset i couldn't put any exclamation marks
on there because i wanted at least three Oh,
wow. Well, that's my homework for next week.
Delete my tree and start again. How do I have
a score of 9 .9 when I'm full of errors? Because
the rest of us are doing worse. Could be a relative,
a 9 .9. Anyway, I've done two good things there,
though. I've attached a source properly for the
first time ever. And I've also put a tag on,
a custom tag. So, yeah, I have learned something.
But also with the things that when you're finding
records within Ancestry, when you add them to
that person, then the source will automatically
get added. It only becomes a dilemma to build
your own sources when you're adding information
from outside the Ancestry record collections
or Ancestry trees and whatever. That's what I
love with the Ancestry stuff because when you
do it, like attach the census and you click it,
it does the lines linking to the life events
and then who's in the tree. I like seeing those
lines because then it's like, where have I got
this information? You click it. Oh, that's where
I got it. Which is why it's great to then be
able to do what you've just showed me how to
do. So I know that that source relates to the
marriage. Nice. It's very tidy. Despite the chaos
that surrounds it. It is. It definitely is. So
this is what I think we need to do. This is what
I'm going to do. And I think it might help you.
So when I get stuck in my family history, that's
when I do actually get better and I kind of dust
off the things that you should do. When it's
all going well, I just gallivant along and I
am not very good at keeping organised, keeping
my notes, making a clear plan of what I'm doing.
And I'm quite happy just having a happy old time.
And then when it gets hard, that's when I go,
OK, you do know what to do and do it. So this
is what I need to do. And I think. is partly
because life is busy at the moment. Work's busy.
I moaned about having a cold and everything.
I need to actually just have a research plan.
It doesn't need to be a big research plan. I
need to treat every little research bit that
I'm doing as a research plan. So I'm trying to
look for this guy, James, who's my three times
great -grandpa's son. So he's my two times great
-uncle. I'm trying to look for him. And I'm finding
him hard to find. I keep getting in a muddle
with other people. So I need to write down everything
I know about him. this is how I do a research
plan I write down what do I know at the outset
so I just write a summary of everything I know
and then I have a section which is records to
search then I'll have a brainstorm with myself
and I could do a bit of googling as well and
I'll draw up a list of all the possible records
that are available for that time period that
might help me find out more about him and then
I will Put the date, whatever, today's date,
and I'll choose one of those records and I'll
start searching for him. And I'll write down
what years I searched for him within those records,
what search terms I used, because his name sounds
Macpherson, which you think should be pretty
easy. But even that simple little Mac can just,
depending on how kind the search systems are.
They can tell you there's nothing in there. And
like I searched in the trade directory for Macpherson,
it told me there weren't any Macphersons in a
trade directory of sterling. And I was like,
you've got to be kidding me. And it's because
they decided to, the originals had it written
as M apostrophe Ferson and the search system
didn't pull it up as being the same word. Wow.
I know. I was just like, can you believe it?
That's just tiring, that. It is. Anyway, so this
research plan, say what you, I'm just reiterating
what I said. Write down what you already know.
Oh, I forgot the other bit. Write down your goal.
Write down what you want to find out. That's
the topic. Oh, what am I like today? First bit
is write down your research goal or your research
question. Then you write down what you already
know. Then you write down a list of all the records
that are going to help you. If you don't know
which records are going to help you, then you
need to have a think about how you're going to
find records that are going to help you. We'll
talk about that in a minute. And then you start
methodically going through that and you write
down what you find and what you don't find. And
it makes much more concrete research progress
and removes the headless chicken vibe. That does
sound good. I'm struggling to put that... Obviously,
I'm only thinking quickly off the top of my head,
but I'm struggling to put that into context with
me looking for death dates. Just because maybe
I've got a lack of knowledge about... It's a
treat, actually, I tell you. Go on, please. So,
and again, you can apply it broadly, but you,
so your overarching goal is that you want to
find the death dates and places for all of your
two times great grandparents. We're going to
drill down. We're just going to choose the first
great grandparent working left to right across
your tree in a standard old pedigree chart. The
first one for whom you don't have a death record.
So the goal is to find this person's death record.
Yep. Then you're going to do the taking stock
thing. So what do you know? So you know, for
instance, that the last time you found them in
the census was whatever census it was. And you
know, the last time you found them, you get a
few details that one of their children got married
and they were there and they weren't marked as
deceased. And you know that, for instance, another
thing could be you found them on their child's
birth. So you've got a kind of post -quem date,
you know, that they died after that date. Yeah.
And then you might have a census where their
spouse is listed as a widow. So you're like,
okay, so they died before this date. So immediately
you helped yourself, haven't you? Yeah. Meanwhile,
while you're looking at all the records that
you do have for them, you're... getting a feel
for are they really are they all living in the
calvary area or are they more geographically
widespread so you're getting an idea of how what's
a realistic kind of geography um over which to
search for this ancestor are you going to be
safe just searching in your local area or have
you got hints from their other data points you've
got for them that actually they do move around
a bit so certainly rather than just going i'm
looking for My answer is the thing. The one I'm
looking for, James McPherson. I know I'm looking
for James McPherson. Dying sometime after this
date, sometime before this date. And he was very
mobile, so I have to keep my wits about me. And
he could have died in England, Scotland or America
or something. Or he might have died in the Calvary
area, which is what you want. Yeah, so that's
your taking stock. So once you start thinking
about it, you do know more than you think. Because
you're thinking, the initial... When we're in
headless chicken mode, we go, I'm looking for
their death. I have no idea where they died.
I know nothing. They go, no, you do. You don't
know where they died, but you've got lots of
pointers to help you focus up your search. That's
the point of the taking stock. Then onto the
list of records. So we're going to have a think
about what records could help us find their death.
So obviously we know about the... General Register
Office death records. We know about the parish
burial records. We know about monumental inscription
projects, so where gravestones have been typed
up and put into databases. We know about sites
like Billion Graves and Find a Grave. We know
about Deceased Online, which has lots of municipal
cemetery records. What else do we know? We know
newspaper. you know, in memoriam notices for
people saying about their loved ones having passed
on. Help me out, Nathan. Anyway, what you do
is you literally do what I'm doing. You're off
the top of your head and you just write all these
down. The point is writing them down so that
then, and it could just be a word document or
a piece of paper, and then you can literally
go, right, I'm going to start at the first one.
Oh, the National Pro -Brit Canada, we mentioned
that a few minutes ago. Yep. So then you're going
to literally just go through them one by one
and it could be... Let's say you were going to
search a big collection like the free BMD death
registers. That's the kind of most comprehensive
record of people's deaths because you're in there.
It doesn't matter how rich or poor you are. It
doesn't matter what religion you are. If you
died after 1837 in England or Wales, then you
should be recorded in that index. But the problem
is with it being so broad that even if you've
narrowed it down to like a 15 -year period and
a rough place where your ancestor died, you could
be facing... Lots of entries, and you're not
going to know which one your one is. But it's
still worth, it doesn't hurt to start there.
And then you can look at all the, go through
the other collections, and by the clues that
you find in the other collections, when you gradually
build up a picture of what's possible and what's
likely from these other collections, when you
could then revisit that list of, let's say you
had 20 possible candidates out of three BMD in
their death indexes. Once you've done all this
other research, you could go, well, actually.
out of those 17 of them just aren't possible
they're not fixing up with any of these other
details that i'm finding so you can discount
all of them and you're down to three people you
go my ancestors one of these three and you say
you're homing in on it yeah yeah yeah that sounds
good it's really good it does work and i think
i've been doing a bit of that like noticing the
wife on the census as a widow it's like right
okay so he's definitely died before 1911 And
they were married at X date and blah, blah, blah.
So I am doing bits of that. It's just when you
get down to the nitty gritty. And then I think
I probably was largely relying on hints, which
is naughty. But find a grave kept coming up.
And it looked accurate. But like I said earlier,
I couldn't find anything that I would concrete,
apart from locality, want to say this is, you
know, definitely related. Because it could be.
There could be multiple George Wads. There are,
aren't there? It's just that confidence to know,
yes, this is correct. That's a good start. I'll
work on that. Can I give one more tip? And I'm
not quite sure how it works on Ancestry, but
I know I'm a family tree maker. I'll add in just
B -E -F dot and then a date. So let's say I found
their spouse as a widow on the 1911 census. And
then I didn't know somebody's death date. Then
I just put Beth for before. um 1911 so i know
they died well they're more actually 1911 before
the census date in 1911 isn't it so it could
be um but i'll know when it's when it's an 11
date and i know it's like a census thing but
so that can be helpful because it kind of i guess
in a way it stops you seeing at a glance what
you don't know because you'll have some sort
of date filled in there but it should keep it
in there because you can include like about can't
you yeah Yeah, you can for the birth. So, yeah,
that's good, actually, isn't it? Because it's
like, right, I've got this little nugget of information,
which is like... Yeah, it's getting warmer and
warmer towards the goal. Yes, and obviously we're
all going to go off on tangents and forget. So
when you come back, be like, right, OK, so if
I see that death 1911, I'll instantly make the
note that it's from a census, so clearly he's
not on it when she is. That's a cool idea. And
again, with the thing that we've just talked
about, reiterating, so let's say you add that
as a fact to your timeline, that he died before
1911, and then you can go to the sources column
in the middle of Ancestry, press plus, create
your little source and go the source for his
death date of before 1911 is the 1911 census.
And so you can make it, it's a tiny bit more
effort, and it's not an actual... date of his
death but it's giving you it's a you've got a
fact and you've got a source which has given
you this information and you've proved it to
yourself so when you revisit it in a few weeks
or months time you go you know exactly why you
thought what you thought and where you got that
information from to start building on um more
firmly yeah that sounds like more like adding
your research log to your tree as you're going
yes that sort of concept which is good if that's
what i'm just doing yeah cool I feel more positive.
I feel like I've cheered myself up by the little
pep talk. I was feeling very despondent at the
start of this. I know. We were full of misery,
weren't we? Yeah, yeah. The power of family history.
Yeah, yeah. Although I am terrified. Because?
I'm just amazed at the mess that I've made. And
it's all on one branch, which is good, at least.
But anyway, there's mysteries out there. Mysteries
for me to find the answers to. I've also spelt
Catherine wrong as well. Well, she could have
spelt it wrong too, couldn't she? Yeah, I put
a little bit of transcript. She probably doesn't
even exist anyway. Whatever. Let's stay positive.
I will find her. You will. So we've got, as ever,
we've got loads and loads to do, haven't we?
We do. It's interesting, isn't it? And I know,
again, I talk about this all the time, but the
difference between, like, doing... research tasks
and actually doing proper exciting digging deeper
and getting further back the difference is very
i don't know what the word is but the mood the
mood's totally different my urge to go back and
do all these death dates it bores me a little
the idea of it it's very what what word am i
missing here it's because it's not spontaneous
it's um it's like a task Exactly. Yeah. Admin.
That's the word I'm missing. Why could I not
remember that? It feels like an admin task, doesn't
it? And it's filling in the blanks and it's like,
I've already got past these guys. Do I really
need to be revisiting these guys when I could
be digging deeper and getting further back? But
obviously it does make for a stronger tree if
I've got things right. And also, clearly, if
you go back and do these things, you might find
lots of mistakes that you need to rectify, which
then will hopefully help you not make mistakes
as you're going further back. I think whether
it's you doing your kind of, you know, you did
it to make sure you got all of the bookend dates
for people's lives or me building forward, they
both sound like a really methodical admin task.
But to actually accomplish that, then we need
to look at a billion and one records. So even
just to establish those people's deaths, we rattled
off at least six or seven different sources that
are going to help you. And working through those
collections in quite an orderly way because you're
just focusing on deaths is kind of nice. You're
going to be really familiar with what's possible
and what is possible and impossible and available
for your ancestors and just the records generally.
You know, when we talked about the marriage,
with the marriage, you could go, well, actually,
the parish marriage register at that point gives
you most of the details. I'm not going to buy
the marriage certificate. Whereas for that period,
the burial register isn't going to give you the
details that the death register is. So if you
want that cause of death and things like that,
chances are you're going to have to order the
death certificate. So it's got different things.
You know, you're going to be thinking, what's
important to me? Do I want to know that? And
sometimes when somebody dies old, you might not
be being rude or callous, but you might not be
that fussed why they died. But if they died when
they're 42, you're going to want to know why.
Yeah, yeah. And that's happened. Like, I have
looked at, like, the files that I've ordered,
and I seem to tend to order death dates more
than I do births. It's always because of that,
well, they died young, whether in childbirth
or... If the child died young, etc. So it is
intriguing to find out. And like you keep saying
as well, it changes the fabric of that family,
doesn't it? So it gives you more context to their
life if somebody's died in an awful way. So what
I'm trying to encourage you and me, both of us,
is that even if something's an admin task and
even if it's quite a big task and it's going
to go on for many weeks and months, the only
way we're going to get these sort of admin tasks
done is by actually doing research anyway. The
answers are all in those lovely historical records
that we like to look at. And when we go into
those historical records, we cannot fail to find
insights and stories about our ancestors. So
it's going to be fine, Nathan. Yeah, we're still
learning. We're holding our skills. Very, very
boring. It's not. It's not. No, it's just funny.
We're both trying to be methodical and, like,
obviously you like your stories and I like a
good rabbit hole, so we're doing the exact opposite
of our actual characters. We are. We are. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. I don't mean it's boring. Somebody,
podcast listener, thank you for... Emailing in,
it was Virginia, and she said that she was enjoying,
she's enjoying listening to our doggedness. I
was like, that's about it. It's not like erudite
with masses of discoveries, but I think we probably
both get 10 out of 10 for keeping on trying.
It's these two again. Same thing, week after
week. Yes, we are dogged. We are dogged, yes.
And I think that's a quality. Might be better
qualities, but it is a quality. Yeah, stubborn.
Yes, definitely stubborn. I think you have to
be stubborn as a family historian. It is that
power to push through, isn't it? Again, I prattle
on about running a lot, but it's that same mindset.
I think the two go hand in hand in the style
of person that you are. You're going to go run
10 miles today. It's like, why would I want to
do that? And it's that mindset of pushing through,
isn't it? getting lost in it. And it is the same
with Family Tree. It's like, oh, this is hard,
but actually it's rewarding, so I'll get through
it. I'll challenge my brain a bit. It's interesting
as well how many different kind of attitudes
there are for family history. So we talk, as
anyone who's ever listened to more than one episode
will know, trying to keep organised and clear
-headed is probably our main theme, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, allegedly, yes. Trying to get unconfused
again and unstuck again. And I think that's probably
because it is easy to get confused and easy to
get stuck. And I thought it was really fun, Nathan.
So a little while back, you put a picture of
your scruffy old research notes. And I think
we should feel encouraged. We're not alone. I
think, what, do you want to talk about that a
bit? Well, yeah, it literally was a few weeks
ago. I can't remember who I was researching,
but I was, it was one of those days where the
information's coming. fast and furious and I
was looking for a birth name of the birthday
I was looking for a maiden name of um one of
the ladies what's wrong with me and um I was
comparing children so I was drawing up a chart
I was doing research on about three different
websites and I was noting volume numbers and
dates and people's surnames I'd made a chart
I'd made little boxes I was scrolling numbers
all over the place and at a glance you can look
at it And it's just nonsense. I've got facts
on one side of the page that relate to facts
on the other side of the page. They're not next
to each other. Why would they be? So there's
arrows, there's squeals. It was a mess. Anyway,
it was just like my brain splurged out on the
page. So I put it on social media and we had
absolutely loads of people responding to it saying,
yeah, this is me. This is how I do it. Some people
were suggesting that my stuff was neater than
their stuff, which is terrifying. Yeah, it clearly
resonated with everybody. So it's nice to see
we're not alone. No, we're definitely not alone.
So if anybody is out there and if anybody is
not writing things down and if anybody is writing
things down but they can't read what they've
written down or if anybody's written things down
as Nathan has on upside down and round about
the corner and everything else, then just don't
worry about it. We're all trying. We're going
to carry on trying to be a bit more methodical,
mainly just to help ourselves. But if it's all
going swimmingly for you and you don't need to
be more organised, that's fine. Well done. The
question I've got is why would I start writing
my notes in the front of the book and on the
same day then just decide I'm going to go to
the back and use the back instead? Bonkers. I
can't answer that. Nor can I and that's the terrifying
thing. Are you left -handed? I am left -handed.
I think that could be it then. I don't know how
to take that. Well, I'm left -handed too and
I think we have a different relationship with
spines. That's true, that's true. Because we
have to cope in a right -handed world. We do.
People don't know the tyranny we live under.
Exactly, exactly. So I think it's probably just
a little left -handed aberration. Right, shall
we go away and we'll reconvene next week and
we'll see whether we've managed to be more...
Well, make more progress. Yes. I'm getting back
with the research plan. Yeah. I've underlined
it. Like, Helen, get your act together. Yeah,
I'm not doing that. I'm just giving you all that
good advice. You're not going to do it. No, I
am. I will do it. I will do it. But I want to
do the death date thing, but I'm now more concerned
about starting this Catherine Black burnout.
I need to find out who her mother is and all
that. I just need to unweave that. That'll calm
me. And then I can get back to actually my admin
task and very excitedly find death dates repeatedly.
Good, good. Okay. Well, thank you for listening,
everybody. And on the topic of being organised,
there's somebody who is... absolutely a gold
star person at being organized and that's dr
sophie k and we have got a course coming up with
her very very soon and in there she teaches search
skills and research skills to help you get more
organized she's devised several different types
of research logs so there's a research log for
everybody every single kind of brain we just
have to use them it's a bit like when you buy
furniture polish you do actually just have to
use it not just buy it okay so she's um that's
another look to myself and then um and then anyway
she's devised this wonderful set of research
logs she's thought clearly about how different
search systems works and she teaches us how these
search systems work so we know why we do or don't
get results when we put our ancestors' names
into search. into search databases. She's thought
of wonderful ideas to help us think of patterns.
So when we're looking for clues, you know when
you were saying about Nathan, it's hard to spot
a death or whatever, then she has thought about
ways that we can look for patterns in the details
that we do have and they can help us shine lights
on those dark corners where you can't find information
readily about our ancestors. So there's lots
and lots of really practical skills and strategies
that we can use and which I do use. very grateful
to Sophie for and if you want to come along and
learn too then our course starts at the beginning
of April it's called the Research Skills Studio
and you can find out about it on our website
which is www .family -tree .co .uk and one last
thing if anybody would like to drop us an email
then you can email me and Nathan at my email
address and I pass it on straight away to Nathan
as soon as we get an email from anyone listening
to the podcast we get very excited and my email
address is Helen at family -tree .co .uk. Lovely.
Happy researching, guys. Bye then.