Welcome back to No Manual, a momcast. We are
here to just share the realities of motherhood,
the fun things, the hard things. This week I
am flying solo. Laura had a sick kiddo, which
is one of the joys of doing this as a mom is
sometimes you just gotta tend to your kiddo and
things come up. But today I'm very excited to
have my friend Claudine on. Claudine, we've known
each other. Probably almost 20 years now. You
were in junior high, since you were my kids'
ages. We knew each other before that, though.
Oh, true. Because you knew my parents. So we've
known each other a very long time. But I'm excited
to have you on and talk about your experience
with motherhood and your girls. So would you
like to introduce yourself? Yeah. My name's Claudine
Norden and I live in Summit County. I have two
girls, Mia, who's 14 and Maddie, who's 11. And
my husband, Mark, we all live in Frisco up in
the mountains. And I know Erica from being her
youth group leader when she was in junior high.
And so now my girls are her age. So this is an
exciting full circle moment for me. So we like
to start each episode with our mom moments. So
my mom moment this week is Lloyd was in the other
room. I must have been nursing Zeta or something
like that. I wasn't keeping an eye on him. And
I could tell he was playing with the Xbox controller,
which is not a big deal. But then I get over
to the living room and I see that the TV says,
thanks for paying for ad -free Amazon Prime.
So somehow. Just by playing with the Xbox controller.
He bought something on the TV, and thankfully
it's Amazon, so we were able to cancel it, and
it wasn't a big deal, but he just figured that
out while I was in the other room. Real life.
Yep. Right? We knew it was going to happen someday,
and there we are. Well, I shared with you my
mom moment earlier that was kind of big for me,
but it was the first time I got a phone call
that was like, Your kid's in trouble. So I was
driving home from Vail. So I was about 20, 30
minutes away from home. And I get a phone call
from a friend of mine that's like, Maddie just
got hit by a car. And I'm like, you're kidding
me, right? Like, who gets that phone call? And
I'm like, what's going on? And she tells me what
happened. And basically, my daughter got her
front wheel taken out by a car leaving the middle
school. But she got up on her bike and biked
home. And our friends chased down the guy to
get his license plate because he drove off. And
then I was like, literally, you feel so helpless
as a mom. And so that moment for me was like,
I had no idea what was going on. So I called
my husband. I called Mark. And he's like, she's
home. I'm like, she just got hit by a car. You
got to go to the school. You know, just like,
that was my first reaction. I was like, go to
school. And he's like, she's home. And then he's
like, okay. And he just hung up the phone. And
in that moment, I realized, you know, it's probably
best that I'm not there because I just freaked
out more than anybody else there. So that was
my mom freak out moment. Maybe that story will
come up later on of how that ended. But yeah,
for me, it was like, I need to regulate myself
here and let that play itself out. And it was
a good thing Mark was at home with her, not me.
Yeah, I think that's something no one tells you
about motherhood is how much you have to regulate
yourself. More like, you know, we talk about
the... kids needing to have their emotions regulated
and help them with that. But you have to help
yourself first. Totally. It's the oxygen mask
thing. Put your oxygen mask first and then take
care of your kids. And you're like, what? If
you're on a plane, you're going to do it for
the kids, but then you're going to pass out and
be like, no help to them. Exactly. Yep. So tell
us more about your family. Oh, let's see. Mia
just finished eighth grade. She was doing online
homeschool for the past two years. And so she's
getting ready to be a freshman. And she is a
dancer and gymnastics. Well, not doing gymnastics
anymore. Maddie is my sixth grader and she did
online school for a little bit, but she thrives
more in the school environment. So this year
we had one in the middle school and one at the
high school or one at home. Next year Mia's going
to high school. And Maddie likes to do crafts
and she ran track or she tried track and swimming.
Yeah, they are just, we're lucky to have two
little girls that are just, they are just sweet
little girls. I mean, really. And then my husband,
Mark, is a doctor at the hospital in our community.
And he works full time. So that allows me to
work part time. And we like to adventure together.
We do a lot of stuff outside as far as like skiing,
biking, hiking. But we really thrive in the winter.
We love winters in the mountains of Colorado.
I mean, if you're going to commit to living in
the mountains, you have to love winter. Yeah.
Because we still have snow in Summit County.
Yeah. Down here in this area, if it snows on
Tuesday, it could be gone by Wednesday. For you
guys, if it snows in October, it's still there
in June. Yep. It sure is. So your girls are 14
and 11? Yep. What has been your favorite stage
of motherhood so far? I know this is a hard question
because I've loved it all. I love being a mom.
It's just so fun. Even with the challenges, which
honestly have not been a ton for us. Like I said,
we've been very lucky to have just like, I don't
know, easy kids. Not saying that there aren't
moments, but all of it has really, each phase
I have really embraced because, you know, someone
once told me and I live by it, but it's like
the days are long. But the years go by fast.
But then I'm like, the days aren't even long.
Like every day, like I was able to stay at home
with my kids and work from home. And so I just
like, I mean, it just sounds so like syrupy,
but it's like I have loved it all because I just
have always wanted to be a mom. I was a mom later
in my life. I had kids at 38 and 40. So for me,
it was, you know, a longing. And so when I finally
was a mom, I was like. Yeah, I'm going to soak
up every minute of it. That's awesome. So what's
been the hardest stage then? Okay, that one.
I'm in it right now. I think parenting tweens
and a teen, like tweenager, right? Yeah, that's
been the hardest so far. What's been challenging
about it? You know, I think I prepared myself
for the practical side of things. Like, oh, they're
teenagers. They're going through hormones. They're
going to have friend drama and boy drama. But
I didn't prepare myself for like the heart part
of it, which was like as a mom in this phase,
you're starting to let go a little bit because
they're, I mean, they were always becoming their
own person, but more so they're more independent.
They want to be with their friends more. And
that has just like surprised me because I did
not prepare for that. Like just the emotional
starting to detach a little. Yeah, just the me
stepping back so that they can step into who
they are has just been more emotionally tough
for me than I thought it would be. How do you
think you've been handling that to not like,
because I think you've worked with teens. I've
also worked with teens. And I think one of the
things I see a lot of times with parents of teenagers
is that unwillingness to let go and go, oh, no,
they do need independence. So how have you like
kind of. wrestled with that and moved forward
then like okay no my kids need to be their own
person and I can't hold them tight like a baby
forever yeah um I don't know if it's been well
it's I'm intentional you know me so I've had
to really like journal about it read about it
and having that kind of in my head and having
a having a little plan of like okay this is when
I just need to not say anything, but I always
say something. So even my saying something is
just, I don't agree with you, but I love you.
And tell me why. Like I've been more, I've been
approaching it with curiosity. So if there's
something that's different than what I would
think or what I would want, then I ask them questions
about it. I'm like, okay, well, why would you
think that? Why would you do that? Like, help
me understand. And, you know, that's what I do
in my work with leadership development and personal
development too, right? But it's hard to apply
it to yourself, as always, and to your kids when
your role is different. Your role is to parent
them and be a mother. So that's that fine line
of just like, you know, if I can pause enough
to ask questions and be curious and then really
respecting their boundaries. when they give me
an answer that I don't want to hear. And then
I have to honestly just pray and be like, okay,
God, this is where I have to let go. And it's
self -regulating, right? It's getting back to
me and being like, literally just taking a deep
breath and thinking that step back so they can
step in. I've had to train myself. Yeah. No,
that would be really hard for sure. So, I mean,
you kind of answered this, but has been... Has
parenting a teenager and a tween, has it been
what you expected at all? Again, you have experience.
So you were my youth group leader. You were a
youth group leader before that and after that
as well. So you've had a lot of years working
with teenagers and teenage girls in particular.
So do you feel like that prepared you or? Totally.
It did? Yes, totally. It really did. But I would
say I've seen it all. You know, I've seen the
gamut because I've worked with a lot of girls,
a lot of, but also I do my volunteer work. I'm
a CASA volunteer. So for kids in the foster system.
So I've also seen that extreme. So I've seen
like extremes of like the good Christian kid
that's like walking a straight narrow path to
like the kid that's like ran away from home.
And so I think my kids fall in between there.
Well, maybe not even in the middle, maybe more
towards like the straight narrow that it's almost
because I've seen that. I am like pushing my
kids more to just be like, break the rules, get
outside the box. And I've told them, and I also
know how I was as a teenager. And so I've told
them those stories and they're like, oh my gosh,
mom, we don't want to, like, why are you telling
us that? You should not tell us that. Don't do
that. Why'd you do that? And so because of my
own experience of being a teen, but then working
with teens, that has really prepared me, I think,
for motherhood. Yeah, just because I've always
– I learned from your moms. I mean, I would call
them up. And they're like, we don't know. We're
just – That's why we sent them to you is because
we thought you knew. So, yeah, so all that has
definitely prepared me. But like I said, I've
seen the gamut. So like for me, it's like that's
why this probably seems pretty easy to me. Yeah,
for sure. So what has been the biggest challenge?
I mean, again, you kind of already answered this,
but for this specific season for you? I would
say my marriage. So because you put so much time
into your kids and, you know, Mark and I have
always had a lot of similar values and raised
our kids the same and agreed on a lot of things.
But then this is where dad is a little more like,
yeah, he's able to let go easier than I am. And
so we're seeing some differences in how we approach
that. But I feel like we can honor those differences.
I don't know if he, well, maybe he doesn't see
some of my emotional. side of things. But then,
you know, caring for your marriage and finding
that, making that a priority has been hard for
us. Has that always been hard or is that new
in this season? That's always been hard for us,
actually, you know, but I think this is highlighting
it now. Sure. Yeah. I mean, if you're already
having a hard time with anything, marriage, anything
else, right? Then if you go through a tough season,
that highlights it. That's just how life works.
What are some things that you've done to kind
of work on that? And I mean, maybe not fix it,
but try to correct it. Well, you know, there's
always been the traditional therapy, but to me,
talk therapy is also talk therapy. You still
have to like go and do the work. And so for me
personally, I've done a lot of heart work of
just like healing my own heart. So for me, it's
a lot of just my own heart journey and bringing
my heart to God and being like, okay, what do
you want to teach me during this season? And
that's hard. It's hard to see the light shine
on those places when you're open. You're like,
okay, here I am in my brokenness. But I think
that, I will say that is the only thing that
brings me to my knees is my marriage. And so
everything else is so great. Everything is really
good. my marriage calls me to God and God's like,
I'm still working on you through your marriage.
And so it's easy to point the finger at Mark
and I'm guilty of that. But I think just doing
my own heart work and going to God and just not
only has that helped me get through those hard
times, but I want my kids to see me doing that.
I want them to see where I get my strength. And
even though we're not always getting along, that
I can still have joy in my life. I can still
go to God in prayer and just have him refuel
me. I think that's so important, too, to see
as a kid, to see your parent trying to work on
themselves. I think as a parent, it's super easy
to... want to fall into the i'm gonna pretend
that i'm perfect oh i haven't for they know for
my kids um yeah so it's super easy to fall into
that like i'm gonna pretend that like i don't
need to fix myself and then that turns toxic
super quickly right because we all do need to
fix ourselves we all do have issues so especially
as tween girls to see a mom go no like these
are the things that i am working on to fix my
marriage or just to fix myself and be a more
complete person and be the person that I'm supposed
to be. Yeah. And that has been powerful as a
mom too, to just admit that to your kids, right?
To just say, oh, I'm sorry. Like, you know, and
apologize to your kids because I'm like, I don't
know what to say there. And I was being really
protective in that situation. And I don't know,
you know, maybe if I would have done it differently,
I would have not. stepped in or whatever it is
you know but just to say I'm sorry to them when
I did something out of like my reaction yeah
I've been trying to get in the habit of that
of course Lloyd isn't like super communicating
yet he has some words but when I like there are
times I yell at him and respond in ways that
I'm like I wish I hadn't responded like that
I've been trying to like get in that habit now
for you know the next lifetime that we have together
and for you know zeta and future kids yeah i'm
sorry i shouldn't have yelled at you for x y
or z i shouldn't have responded in that way yeah
because i think that is important and so many
people have never heard an apology from their
parents i know i don't think i ever did right
like yeah growing up i just yeah you don't hear
that yeah that's just how it is so what's been
the biggest joy in the season then oh you know
Just as it's been hard to let them step into
their own personalities and their own little
adulthood, it's also been a total joy to see
things that are like, oh, wow, they just really
thrive in that quiet space. Or they love finding
their joys, whatever it is, whether it's baking
or dancing or swimming or just creating or doing
crafts or just having solitude time. that has
been a joy to see them just exploring that. But
in a way, like when they were little, it was
like they were just trying all these things.
But now they are like forming habits that are
like I can see and like, oh, they're going to
do that for life, whether it's like journaling
or like. we've been doing this year, we've been
doing a family devotional, me and the girls,
and just them like taking ownership and being
like, oh, do you want to do devotional time?
Because we try to do it on Sundays. So for them
to grab the Bible or grab their devotional book
or be highlighting something in the Bible or
wanting to go to youth group, that part of it
is like, yeah, these are like habits for life.
How have you leaned into that as a mom of just
like seeing them? pick up these things that are
actual interests and actual habits and encourage
the good ones and yeah maybe even try to discourage
some that yeah you don't want that habit for
life i also don't want to be like super excited
because sometimes i know i can be too much you
know so if i make it too big a deal then they're
gonna be like okay, mom, you know? So I'm just
like, I just tell them how it makes me feel.
You know, I'm like, oh, that makes me really
happy to see you guys just owning that yourself
and wanting to go to youth group or just when
a friend invites you to do something and you're
just like, no, I don't feel like it. And I'm
like, oh, really? Why not? You know, I want to
ask like, why not? Don't you want to go with
your friend and go to the pool after school?
And she's like, no, I'm good. You know, like
I have to just be like, you know, I love that
you. Can say no to things, you know, and so just
it's in the little things like that, just being
able to say no and protect their own time or
their own headspace or, you know, Maddie's an
introvert, which leads to another thing, right?
Quigley and those books and just empowering her
to be her that is different from me is really
hard for me. Yeah, because you are not introverted.
No. And so that has been a joy because it's not
like she's a mini me. It has really been seeing
her just like bloom into her own person. That's
super cool. So what has changed for you as your
girls have grown just from being like an all
in mom, because when they're little kids, that's
what they need to letting them go a little bit.
Like what has, how has that changed you? I guess.
Yeah. You know, because I did. a life plan. Do
you remember all that when I did life plan? So
it's like a strategic plan for your life. I know
it sounds so like rigid and so, but like my life
purpose is to inspire others to be their personal
best and to bring out, um, yeah, their giftedness.
And so, um, I've done that in the different life
domains since they were babies, you know, like,
so personally for me, that means the work that
I do, which is that personal professional leadership
development. I've been able to work part time
and have my own business. In my community life,
it's serving the community as an advocate, but
also as a CASA volunteer for kids in the court
system. In my family, it's been caring for my
family and just inspiring them to be who they
are to be. And so I've really always made sure
I was living my intention and my purpose. in
all my stages of motherhood. And so now that
I feel like they need me a little less, I can
lean more into my career. And so, and it's naturally
just happening. So this is where I feel like
things are in alignment because it's like, now
that they're not needing less, I'm like, I need
to start working some more. And naturally, like
the work is just coming, or maybe not naturally,
organically, because I did plant seeds, you know,
last year, and now those are coming to fruition.
And so because I was intentional about like,
my life purpose and just staying in alignment
with that and self -checking along the way. I
think that's helped me be a mom through all the
different stages. That's really cool. Yeah. I
think, I know I have one friend I've talked to
about how easy it is to lose yourself in motherhood
because you love your kids, especially if you
do love being a mom, it's all consuming. And
when I was talking to this friend, I was like,
I totally get how a mom could get to you know
graduation day and all of a sudden not know what
to do with their life because they've spent their
entire life taking care of their kids which is
a noble thing you know that's not like obviously
I love being a mom I have a podcast about it
but that's super cool to see like from your perspective
this like well you know work maybe was a little
bit less important for certain seasons and now
I can naturally make it more important um And,
you know, focus on other things outside of motherhood
in a healthy way. Yeah. And it's, and it helps
when you have a partner who supports that. Like
Mark is about self -care and, you know, so when
I do it, he fully supports it. I think that's,
that's huge, right? That helps you, but it doesn't
mean you still don't lose yourself and your kids
sometimes. And you're like, okay, because your
heart, so this is the difference though. Yeah.
I may self -care and like, you know, do my exercise,
go on a hike, hang out with friends, but that
heart piece is a different. thing than just all
those external things, right? There's still the
heart piece of self -care. And I remember doing
a talk at Mops when I had little ones, you know,
and it was about self -care. And I remember the
logo I used was self -care isn't selfish, but
so many moms, like for me, it was easy to talk
about. I was like, yeah, I can do this. And this
is what I do. I set aside time for myself and
my friends. And a lot of moms were like. wow,
like they feel guilty for it. So I never really
felt guilty. And again, that comes back to having
a partner who doesn't expect me just to only
be in that role, but supports me and my self
-care too. Yeah, that's awesome. What are some
things that you personally do for self -care?
Girlfriend time, other moms. I mean, that is
huge. That's why I love that you're doing this
podcast because I think just having that. network
of moms to do it, like even phases of life with,
but I also have moms that have older kids. I
think I called your mom at some point when, when
I, when you guys were little. And then even like
having people that are like, you can pour into
too. So still, you know, doing my advocacy and
my volunteer work. I think I did reach out to
you guys a few years ago and I was like, okay,
my kids are entering the phase that. I entered
with you guys in junior high. And I remember
that you were like, we're going to have to talk
about sex. Yep. So what did your parents do that
ruined it and what did they do well? Yeah. And
so having just like not being afraid to talk
about those kind of things. But also, so yeah,
back to the self -care thing. So having people,
other women who understand, who've been there,
who have not been there, but were in that stage.
But I also do like, you know, just physical exercise.
So I always think, This is part of the life plan,
physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual,
pies. So physically, you know, exercise. I also
teach fitness classes at the rec center. So that's
for me like just that physical piece of getting
outside, biking, hiking, skiing, whatever. And
then intellectual, like that's my career piece
usually, like always learning and whether I'm
in the word or whether I'm taking a new online
course. I need to feed my mind, not just mommy
stuff. Because of course I read mommyhood books,
but there's also just regular books that I love
to read too. Emotionally, just that self -care
piece. I told you I did a lot of heart work around
like I've been doing for the past year and a
half now, like sound bowls and sound healing
stuff. Okay. And like chakra and essential oils
kind of stuff. And yeah, being married to Mark,
he's like, yeah, I didn't learn that in med school.
But I'm like, hey, it's working for me. I always
think it's so funny. You being married to a doctor
just because being a doctor is very traditional
medicine and you've always been a little bit
hippie, you know? Thanks, thanks. I take that
as a compliment. Good. So it's just that duality
is really funny to me. Yeah. And it comes out
too. And so sometimes it's like, he's like, okay,
if that works for you, you know? So yeah, that
emotional piece and then the spiritual piece
of just, and you go in phases here. There's times
where you're like. I don't have time to open
my Bible or go into the Word. Or who do I deal
with? You have different seasons of friends and
community, and I didn't have that. I don't have
time for a Bible study. That's one thing I think
people don't talk about with motherhood, especially
in the Christian community where it's like, I
know people who say like, you need to read the
Bible every day before breakfast and before you
go to bed. And I'm like, I would love to do that.
That's not realistic. It's not going to happen.
For me, that's changed. I found a podcast that
goes through Bible stories and kind of dissects
them. And that's made all the difference because
I'm like, I can do that. And listen. Yeah, I
can listen to it while I'm doing dishes or while
I'm playing with Lloyd, all that versus like
trying to do it. And then again, Bible study
is another thing where... You know, it's like,
you're supposed to do this. You're supposed to,
like, one night a week. That's a lot for when
you have two little kids and are married and
trying to keep everything together. And sometimes
you want to be there. Like, even though, you
know, you're like, I know this will be good for
me, but I want to be there. And so, yeah, I think
giving yourself grace around that, too. Like,
it just looks different. You know, it might be
a podcast. It might be while you're doing dishes,
you know. I mean, that's super cool to just hear
your side of knowing that it changes and being
a new mom. That's super encouraging too, to be
like, okay, I'm not doing things wrong. Yeah.
And nowadays there's so many tools, right? There's
podcasts. There's like, sometimes I'm like, oh,
I just need to listen to the Bible. You know,
so I just, there's an audio thing and you can
listen to it, you know? And then I'm like, I
didn't know what I just listened to. So now I'm
going to read it. What is something that you've
found yourself looking forward to as you watch
your girls grow up? Walking alongside them in
this next phase and just like discovering with
them. Like, cause you know, you think you have
this vision of the track they're going to take,
but like, I don't know. I want to just, as they
discover themselves, like I'm excited to. hear
what that is like i'm like sitting here like
in anticipation you know um like even i think
about with you girls i was like oh she's gonna
be a veterinarian oh she's gonna be you know
like you can yeah because you see their passions
brewing and but to see what they actually do
with that is exciting and so i have to just kind
of sit back and like watch patiently yeah and
encourage when you can and yeah and and know
when to be discerning of like Oh, like when you,
maybe they make a choice that you don't agree
with. Like that's going to be hard for me. But
that's where I have to just get back to that
trusting and like, yeah, this is their journey.
And this is. How do you, this is not in our questions,
but this is something that I've kind of just,
again, having worked with teens and now being
a parent that I've thought of is so, and we kind
of talked about this earlier, is being a parent
is really like helping your kid learn to be a
human and getting them ready to. launch and be
an adult and I think is with little kids that's
a lot easier to remember because you're teaching
them the fun things you're teaching them to walk
and talk and you know it's really cute when they
mispronounce words at two years old that's adorable
and then you know you get to teach them to ride
a bike and that's adorable and so when they're
little it's like the fun things of learning to
be a human and then you get to teenage years
and all of a sudden it's honestly the scary things
of learning to be a human of and you're going
to have to teach them to drive. And teaching
them to drive is a lot scarier than teaching
them to walk because if they hit something, it
could be deadly instead of just like, oh, you
got a bonk on the head. So going back to what
I've observed, I think a lot of parents have
a hard time. It's almost like they assume that
their kids already know how to do this. Because
they have some independence. But it's like, no,
they've never experienced peer pressure in this
capacity before. Or they've never had a boy break
their heart before or whatever. So how do you
still coach them and still be a parent of guiding
them with those challenges while also not being
overbearing and not treating them like they're
a little kid? they need to have that independence
in order to learn these things. Yeah. But again,
they're a lot bigger and they're a lot scarier.
So it's harder to... The consequences are bigger.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I remember reading
a book, a parenting book when they were little,
and it was about discipline and about like, but
what I remember the takeaway was like, you know,
you can discipline them and be pretty strict
on them if they know that they are loved. And
so a big thing for me has always been to lead
with love, like no matter what we're talking
about, this is a hard subject, but I love you.
And more about not just every little incident
that happens, but more the bigger picture of
like your values of like, are we instilling making
good choices? Are you being kind? Are you respecting
people? And so you hope that that comes up for
them when they are in peer pressure, when they...
get their heart broken, that they remember those,
those guiding principles or those like overarching
values. Yeah. That's just off the top of my head
what I'm thinking of, of like, yeah, cause we've
gone through some like hard decisions or hard
conversations and I'm just like, well, you know,
the important thing is there that you were kind
or you responded and you stood up for yourself.
And so you were, you were sticking to your principles.
And so it's more like, I guess that's the philosophical
side of things, right? Is the values. And not,
so when they do do those things, I guess when
they do make good choices, it's reinforcing those
things. Not always just like having that conversation
when it's a hard, bad thing. Yeah, that makes
sense. So a lot of setting just like a good foundation
when you can. And that starts, and those are
even like your values, right? like you and your
husband have raising kids. And it starts at a
very young age because it's just who you guys
are. But then you create these family values
too. And so to really just, you know, like for
us, family time, we enjoy family time and we
do family trips. And my friends sometimes are
like, oh my gosh, you spent four weeks with your
family. How'd that go? And I'm like, it was so
great. Like we enjoy spending time together.
Or people will say, oh, spend time with them
now because when they're teenagers, they're not
going to spend time with you. And, you know.
One time, Mia said she was doing a lot with her
friends, and she was figuring things out. She
was like, well, Daddy's been at work all week,
and we haven't really done anything as a family,
so I don't know if I want to go. And I was like,
oh, wow. It's working. Wow. You just celebrate
that. And I'm like, oh, I love that you said
that, but if you really want to go, we spend
a lot of time together, and we can make sure
we do that. You don't want to miss his birthday
party or whatever it is. Right. You know, if
it's just like they're hanging out, that's another
thing. But just the fact that she recognized
that and valued that, it gives them like, I guess,
I feel like I can give them a longer leash when
I know that they're going to or try to at least
make good choices. Right. They do prioritize
family time. They do, you know, and so when those
things are there, it is easier to let them. For
sure. Do their thing. Yeah. Yeah, that makes
sense. So what is something that you wish you
had been told about parenting for this stage
before you got to it? I would say it kind of
goes back to the whole like emotional heart strings
thing. Like you hear about like, you know, people
empty nesting, right? So you hear about they're
preparing for that and they're ready to let go.
But you don't hear about that as teens because
that is kind of the first launching pad. Because
they're going to high school and all of a sudden
it's not like they're leaving the house, but
they're leaving. I mean, they're going to their
friends in a way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Well, yeah. It's almost like becoming an empty
nester isn't actually an overnight thing, even
though we assume it is. Yes. Because there is
the night that they move out of the house. Right.
But. Yeah, it is this slow ramp up. That's a
good way to put it. You're starting empty nesting.
I mean, I haven't looked at it like that. I mean,
maybe I'm being dramatic. But it's kind of the
lead up of this going into high school phase
for me has been like, wow, this is the start
of her going off to college or going to whatever
she's going to do and the start of empty nesting.
That's another way to put that. Ooh, I like it.
And I guess I'm still there, so I could still
do it. But now is when I'm like, oh, I'm going
to talk to some friends. And I am. Some of my
conversations with friends naturally work because
we're all kind of going through that right now.
We're like, oh, yeah. It's kind of like a piece
of your heart is like taking a step away. Yeah.
You know, and in a good way. But it's like it's
a process. Yeah. Oh, maybe that'll help me with
empty nesting because it's kind of like little
by little. Yeah, it's not overnight. Yeah, that's
good. So what is something you tell other moms
who maybe aren't quite in this stage yet or are
just entering middle school, high school years
with their kiddos? I would say give yourself
grace. I mean, because every mom, every kid is
different, you know? And so, you know, like I
would hear friends be like, oh, total mom fail.
Oh, you know, and I know they're kidding in a
way, but I'm like, I've never thought that. Like
I've never thought like I failed something or
like, and I know it's just a ism and it's just
like a phrase you use, but it's like, but to
me it's also like a mindset of like, oh, you
know, I don't know. I'm just figuring this out
as I go to here. And, um, I've always just had
that attitude and, and my kids know that too.
You know, so I'm not like, I'm not like, yeah,
because I'm the mom because I don't know what
it is to be a mom. I don't know either, you know,
and, and to really give them more agency than.
you think you should, I guess. Like, I would
say like, you know, they're experts. They're
experts at their stage of life of whatever they
can process at the time. And so invite them into
the process. You know, now I sound like work,
but this is, you know, I do treat them like little
adults. You know, I'm like, well, okay, let's
walk out. You know, they're making a choice.
And I'm like, let's walk out those decisions.
If you go, if you make this choice and you do
this, or you can do this and go that path, you
know, and just walking it with them. And letting
them know that I'm there to just process it with
them. I think you brought up that you're still
just figuring it out. So now having a second
kid, one of the things I realized, we're all
still first -time moms. There's this attitude
of once you have a second kid, you're not a first
-time mom anymore. But honestly, I've never had
a toddler before. Two kids, yeah. And I've never
had two kids before. And yes, there are things
that I know more of now. I've had an infant before,
so there are things that I know that I can do.
But each stage is your first time in that stage,
and it's your first time in that stage with that
kid. Because, you know, what you do for Mia at
14 is going to look different than what you do
for Maddie at 14 because they're different kids.
Your kids are different, yeah. Yeah, because
I think there's kind of this, like, weird negative
attitude towards being a first -time mom. Like,
oh, you don't know anything. It's like, none
of us know anything. Yeah. Even if you think
you do, you're still figuring out what it looks
like for your kid. And, you know, that doesn't
mean you're doing a bad job. That means you're
just still learning, and that's not a bad thing.
You don't know. We don't. Yeah. Well, I couldn't
have you on without talking about Quigley the
Hedgehog. So tell us about Quigley the Hedgehog.
Yeah. So this, you know, ties back to parenting.
And I remember what inspired it is one time we
were dropping Maddie off at daycare. She's my
younger one. She's now 11. We dropped her off
at daycare and she was really shy and quiet.
And the teacher said, oh, well, you know, it's
only the first week. Maybe she'll come out of
her shell or she'll give it time. She'll come
out of her shell. And Mark turned to me and then
looked at the teacher and was like, or she might
not, and that's okay too. And I was like, it
is? Like, oh, okay. And I've always known, you
know, Mark is an introvert, but I just always
thought I was going to have mini -me's and they're
going to be like me. I don't know why, but maybe
because they're both girls. But Maddie has a
quieter temperament style. And she was our second.
So Mia was like me. And then Maddie was more
like her daddy. And I was like, wow. Okay. When
Mark said that, I was like, you're right. It
is okay. Right? Okay. But I had to learn about
that because how do I raise a kid that's not
like me? I don't know. I just was like, no idea.
So I read a lot of books about introversion and
it actually helped me in all areas of my life.
You know, just work, friends. Turns out all my
best friends and my husband are total introverts,
opposite of me. And there's even parenting books
on parenting the introverted child. But there
weren't books that empowered the kid that being
quiet is okay. And so I decided to write my own.
So that's where Quigley the Quiet Hedgehog came
from. And then Maddie has since helped me write
two more books. So Quigley the Quiet Hedgehog
is the first book in the series that introduces
Quigley as this introverted. um, quiet creature.
And then the series of books after that are her
little adventures that she goes on, like how
she goes to gymnastics and how it is when she
goes on a hike or whatever. I love that. Yeah.
I, I don't have any, I need to buy them. I have
some for you. They were sitting on my counter
and I left. That sounds about right. Yeah. I
mean, Lloyd loves books, but And I don't want
to, like, call it right now because he's not
even two. But based on his temperament, I think
he's going to be more introverted just because,
like, we'll go into a space. And he kind of just,
like, observes for a little while. But once he's
comfortable, then all bets are off. Like, when
we're at Grandma and Grandpa's house, he's a
wild child. When we're home and it's just family.
Um, and so he loves his people so much, which
is part of being an introvert is like, you have
your people that you love. Um, it's just, you
know, big groups and needing to recharge and
all of that. And I think it's just a misconception
of introverts are like shy and quiet. They're
not shy and quiet once they are comfortable with
their people. Like if you get them, you know,
I think of some of the introverts in my life
and it's like, you get them on the right subject.
You're like, no, please stop talking now. Yeah.
I think that's, and that was part of the goal
of the books too. is just to redefine introversion.
There's this misconception that there are these
quiet bumps on a log that just sit in the corner
to party. Right. Yeah. And again, there is this
assumption that little kids aren't introverted,
right? That all little kids are outgoing because
those are the little kids we notice. I look at
my nephew who we love and he's so outgoing and
he's always hamming it up and wants to be the
center of attention and has since like day one.
And then I look at Lloyd and he... He's just
not that way. And we love both of them. And honestly,
it would be really boring if they were exactly
the same. That's part of life, right? Yeah. We
like to close each episode with our win of the
week. So mine this week is, so we did try to
teach Floyd some sign language. To be fair, we
didn't try very hard. And he never really picked
it up because we didn't try very hard. But the
thing we've taught him to do when he's done with
meals is to just push his plate away. So that's
the way we know he's done. And I don't know how
he's picked this up, but he started stacking
his dishes. So, like, he'll put his fork on his
plate, and then he'll put his cup on his plate.
And we don't do that. Yeah, and then he pushes
away. And the only time I ever stack dishes is,
like, if we're at a restaurant and I'm trying
to help the waitstaff or whatever. But we don't
do that at home, so I don't know where he learned
this. But that's how we know he's done is he
stacks all his dishes and pushes it away. And
then, actually, this week he's just started.
He'll rub his hands together to say that he wants
to wash his hands. And I don't know where he's
learning these things, but he's picking them
up. And it's super fun to just like see him communicating
and these little things that he's learning and
doing and the responsibility that he somehow
has just picked up. Well, and I love that you're
noticing that, right? You're not just picking
up the dishes or you're teaching him those things.
And now it's like he's doing it in his own way.
Like even though you taught him to push the...
Played away, maybe his way of doing it is the
same idea, but he's going to add his little thing
on it and just stack them up. Oh, I love that.
I would say my win is, you know, Maddie, with
that whole incident with the bike, she has said,
I don't want to talk about it. And my tendency
is to be like, well, you've got to talk about
it. You've got to process it. This is a big deal.
But I didn't. And then I had to leave town for
work because I was down in Denver last night
and stayed at a hotel. So I did just text her
and say I was just. proud of how she handled
it. And she was very brave to just get up back
on her bike and ride home. And she just said,
thank you so much. And then I just was like,
okay, I'm just going to leave it there. And then
this morning I woke up in the hotel because it
just happened two days ago. And so I'm in a hotel
in Denver and I have a ring notification. So
I look at my ring notification and it's her riding
her bike to school. I see her driving off or
like biking off down the driveway. And I was
like, oh wow. okay. Like she got back on the
bike, you know, and I don't know if Mark had
a talk with her between now and then, cause I've
been gone, but also I was going to tell her like,
well, when you're ready, you know, get back on
your bike and you, you know, but I was like,
I'm just not going to say anything. Cause that's
her, that's honoring her introverted style. Right.
So I was like, okay. She said, you don't talk
about it. I need to not talk about it. That's
hard for me. And so to see her just get on her
bike and bike to school, like. two days after
she just got hit by a car, biking to school,
to and from school. Um, I was very proud of that.
That's awesome. Yeah. That shows a lot of strength
on her end too. I don't know if I would have
done that. I don't know if I would have either
at this age. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome.
Well, thank you so much for being on. This was
so fun and good to see you. Thank you all for
listening. We hope that you liked this episode.
Please join us on social media, like subscribe.
review all the things, and we will see you next
week.