You're listening to Health Lifelines, a podcast
brought to you by the Lifeguard Approach, your
trusted source for insights, solutions, and training
that empower you to become a lifeguard for your
patient's health and well -being. Hello and welcome
to the Health Lifelines podcast. I am so excited
about today's guest because he is someone I'm
deeply honored to introduce, and it's Dr. Kim
Cutch. And not only am I excited about this because
of his groundbreaking contributions to dentistry,
but because he is also a friend, a mentor, and
a trusted colleague for over two decades. He's
a lifelong learner and leader, always asking
better questions, always searching for a better
way to care for patients. His work has elevated
not just science and protocols, but our mindset
as clinicians, reminding us that curiosity and
compassion must go hand in hand. So I'm thrilled
to share this conversation with you today because
I know it will challenge and inspire you just
as Dr. Kutch has challenged and inspired me over
the years. So Dr. Kim Kutch, welcome to the conversation.
Well, thank you, Chris. And thank you for that
wonderful, warm welcome. I really admire and
respect you. And we've been friends for over
20 years. And so it's really a privilege for
me to be here with you today and with your audience.
Well, thank you. I've got to dive deep into this.
I've got a couple of questions that don't require
a lot, but I would love to have you answer this
to see. So that the listeners get a little bit
more insight into who you are Tell me about what
you consider your superpower My superpower It's
a blessing and a curse and I Feel like I see
things that other people don't see I ask questions
that other people don't ask and I look for answers
to questions that people haven't asked yet. And
I I once commented to Rella Christensen that
I felt like I was always felt like I've been
like 20 years ahead of my time. Right. Like everything
that I can kind of came up with in dentistry
that I asked questions about or wanted to see
a change in progress. It was like 20 years later
people got it right and they didn't get it when
I first you know talked about or introduced it
and so And she said Rella said to me Kim you've
always been 20 years ahead and That I think is
my superpower and I would say Chris It's also
a frustrating curse, right? Because I would see
things and go why not? Why does anybody else
get this right? It's so crystal clear to me And
I mean, for example, when we started talking
about the medical management of dental caries
and looking at risk assessment based care and
trying to look at the whole person and dental
caries as a disease rather than a cavity. And
it became so clear to me. And yet I talked to
dentists and they looked like I was talking Greek.
They just have this deer in the headlight looking
and then they turn, shake their head and turn
and walk away. And now, of course, it's, you
know. It's mainstream topic, but you know actually
25 years ago people thought I was nuts anyway,
so that's my superpower That's awesome so let's
talk a little bit about that about carries and
Whether or not Other people have shifted from
it just being thinking of it as a cavity caused
by sugar or more about that it's a biofilm disease.
Yeah, you know, Chris, that's that's a great
topic for conversation. And, you know, like when
I said, when I first started on this kind of
personal journey, what really triggered it for
me was I'd been in private practice in a small
town, Albany, Oregon, where I grew up. My parents
were farmers. You know, they knew everybody in
the community. So most of my patients I had known
my entire life. So these weren't just like Patients
they were like friends and family, right? and
they just kept getting cavities and I kept doing
what I was taught to do and They were trying
to do what I was helping instruct them to do
and and yet in spite of all of it They it just
they just kept getting cavities and I was frustrated
and if you're in one place long enough you start
to see your own work fail, right and I thought
this one morning I woke up and I was like this
doesn't work like if this worked they would stop
getting cavities and we're missing something
here and so I had sold one of my first companies
that I built and I had taken a three -year sabbatical
and gave me the opportunity to really reach out
it was just the infancy of the internet gave
me an opportunity to reach out to the world's
leading minds and dental caries and bless them
they all became anybody I asked became a mentor
for me and Philip marsh's groundbreaking research
on biofilm and you know ph in the mouth how that
you know selected for the pathogens that you
know caused dental caries and then we found out
not only just them but also the their behavior
of producing acid um opened a whole world to
me right and So it was like I had the opportunity
to study that and and John Featherstone, you
know became a mentor to me and Doug Young and
Doug and I spent a lot of time going through
Philip Morris's research and then Doug spent
a lot of time at idea, which is the Dental Educators
Association and really helped create. carries
risk assessment as a standard of practice in
the dental schools and this has been you know,
like almost 20 years ago, so it slowly penetrated
the Mindset of our the young dentists that we're
training now, right? And so it was kind of you
know progressive and one of the challenges that
I ran into was in speaking with Philip Marsh
Was that I I proposed to him like I understood
that having a lowered pH in the mouth helped
contribute and kind of drive this disease, creating
cavities. So I posed to him, well, what would
happen if we raised the pH? If it's pH driven
that direction, what if we tried to drive it
back the other direction, back to health with
pH? And he said, oh yeah, that'll work. He goes,
I actually did that in my biofilm models. And
I go. Why didn't you publish that, right? Because
that was in the late 1980s. And he said, oh,
I was just so excited about trying to figure
out, sorting out what was driving it. And so
Doug and I got together, and I was like, OK,
so all we got to do is just go to Walmart, get
a shopping cart. I still had a research laboratory.
I thought, let's just go there, let's buy all
the products and we'll pick the one that has
the highest pH. I'll start treating my patients
and my practices and we'll see what happens.
And I had no clue, Chris, I had absolutely no
clue. I couldn't find a product that had a pH
above 5 .5. And a lot of them were from three
to 4 .3. And I thought, oh my goodness, this
is like part of the problem, right? I mean, we're
trying to elevate the pH and reverse this. biofilm
disorder dysfunction and we're doing it with
acidic products and so There's a reason for that
I learned it later. I mean, you know that that's
one of those curses of the superpower He's asking
like well, why aren't they alkaline? and It's
about shelf life stability That's primarily it
shelf life stability. So if it's acidic, nothing
will grow in it. It'll be stable on the shelf
for ages if it's a pH of eight, it's alkaline
pH of eight or nine everything wants to grow
in it and all of our preservatives that we have
are Most active in an acidic environment and
so they really lose their potency in an alkaline
environment took us took a team of engineers
and I four years to figure out how to Stabilize
something at an elevated pH, you know for shelf
life stability But so I looked at Doug and I
go We have to do this ourselves. I like I didn't
really want to start another company, but it's
like Nobody's gonna do this. It's on us. So that's
when we started carry -free I mean 25 years ago
and started doing the research Anyway, so that's
kind of a quick background of that whole story.
But in the last 25 years we've seen continuous
growth in the awareness and the changes in behaviors
and dental practitioners the professionals, you
know dentists, hygienists, and assistants, everybody
kind of understanding that if you just keep drilling
and filling the cavities, you're just going to
keep doing that because it doesn't treat the
cause of the disease. And I think we're at a
point in our awareness and health care overall
that we're starting to look at, let's back up
a step and treat the cause of whatever the disease
is. Let's go for the cause. And rather than just
keep treating symptoms and having this disease
become chronic and progressive. So anyway, I
think it's changed a lot. There's still a lot
of work to do, but I'm pretty happy with how
far we've come. Oh, you've come so far. I know
that for me, when I started work with Dr. McKay,
He had, it's not what he said, but what I heard,
you know the difference. Yeah, yeah. And I heard
him say, I want you to start painting a much
larger canvas of who you can be for our patients.
And he said, I'll give you continuing education,
the technology that you need in a personal coach.
And that set me off on to figuring out how to
help patients create biofilm health. And that's
when I found out about Carry Free because my
niece was working for you. Oh, that's right.
Yes, she was. Yeah. And so she came into the
office one day and wanted to talk to Brian and
he wasn't there. So I talked to her and your
philosophy of care and what you were doing really
spurred me on to put that as my number one priority
in trying to create health for patients was to
help them create biofilm health. And so I used
your products. It's more a system to me than
a product. That became the mainstay and it was
so easy because we just incorporated it into,
this is how we take care of you here. It wasn't
a, well, if you want me to do something that's
new and innovative that can really help you,
but here's the cost of it, chair side. Nah, that
didn't work for me because it became right then
as a conversation about cost rather than a conversation
about outcome. And so we just made it part of
our routine. This is how we take care of you
here. And I did a carry free swab on every single
patient at every visit. And that was important
because that was gave me a glimpse very quick.
wonderful glimpse of the health of the biofilm
and what needed to shift in the patient so that
they can create their own health. Yeah, you know,
and I think that Chris blessed you for that.
I mean, you know, the patients that I mean, it's
as simple as this. If you have a healthy biofilm
in your mouth, you won't get cavities. I mean,
it's just as simple as that. And if you can maintain
that healthy biofilm and you know, we know what
the risk factors are that you know contribute
to those issues of you know, this health If you
can maintain that healthy biofilm like you're
gonna stay healthy and now we know Chris I mean
following this up now we know how Big of an impact
if you have an unhealthy biofilm in the mouth
how big an impact that has on the rest of the
body like in terms of arterial disease inflammation
and I just you know strokes you know heart attacks
and strokes I mean I start looking at that and
it's you know I've always had that sense that
you can't have a healthy body if you don't have
a healthy mouth I mean it's the gateway to the
body and I think for a lot of years. Unfortunately,
in the United States, you know, dentistry got
disconnected from medicine in the medical schools.
Oh, you know, early on in the 1800s. And, you
know, we saw dentistry saw itself as like, we
just take care of this. Right. And this is not
connected to the rest of the body. And medicine
has that same attitude. Right. I mean, early
on, when we first started understanding that
periodontal pathogens were playing a role in
Peripheral inflammatory disease and heart attacks
and strokes I was looking at some of the early
research again. That was like 25 years ago and
I'm looking at going like This should be setting
off alarms like it wasn't one study. It was like
within three or four years there was multiple
studies that all indicated the same thing and
I went to my local hospital And you know, they
have a once a month lunch and learn for the physicians
and I said I'd like to I'd like to get on your
lunch and learn I'd like to do a presentation
for an hour on You know the patients are treating
and gum disease and how it's impacting their
patients, you know in terms of their overall
health And I never got on and they looked at
me and said you're a dent you're a dentist What
could you possibly teach us about anything? I
mean they had that attitude and I was just like
really That's your attitude because i'm we're
treating the same patients here And i'm seeing
you I could help you, you know improve their
health if if you just understood what it is that
i'm trying to do and um, you know, so that's
changed over time, I think in the last 25 years,
I think that Um certainly with people at the
you know, american academy of oral systemic health,
uh, you know doug thompson, um, susan maples
michelle hudson They've all helped drive that
awareness and start to make connections with
the medical profession so that they see us as
um partners in taking care of the same people
the patients like well, how does that impact
them and so um Yeah, we're seeing great. I mean
we're seeing great change in our lifetime chris
that 25 years ago, I anticipated it to happen
a lot faster. And then I got to a point never
going to see this in my lifetime. And now it's
kind of happening. So so that makes me feel really
happy. That is awesome. I know it's such great
work you've been doing. Can you tell me why aren't
all dental professionals paying attention to
all this, especially now what we know about systemic
health. I think you're a lot like me in that
I gave up on traditional hygiene because the
questions that I was asking, traditional hygiene
didn't even measure up. You couldn't use tradition
to answer those questions. And I had lost my
impact and influence with patients, because what
I was asking them to do and telling them to do
wasn't working. So they were still coming back
with infection in their gums and bleeding and
developing cavities. So what has to happen, do
you think, for that? I tell you Chris as I think
about that because that's really a great question
right and I said here when you first start talking
about you know, if only I knew the answer to
that question, right like what's What's the roadblock
here? and I think The main issue is that in health
care in the United States. We're still disease
driven And we need to become health driven And
Bob Barclay pointed this out in the early 1970s
and For your audience who doesn't know he was
a very innovative pioneering dentist who died
early But he he really had a whole health kind
of approach in the 19 early 1970s That was they
thought either loved him or you thought he was
a quack, right? but one of the things that Bob
Barclay's was concerned about was that With the
advent of dental insurance and it's not really
insurance But with the advent of dental insurance,
he felt we would become more and more treatment
oriented to like the surgical approach drill
and fill scraping teeth because we could prove
that we did that and we would instead of teaching
patients prevention and cut which we wouldn't
get paid for teaching them nutrition teaching
them how to and at this point how to Create and
maintain a healthy biofilm using our Care skill
and knowledge to help the patient create health
He was concerned that it would just continue
to drive it to just treating symptoms of disease
And I have to tell you I mean that what is that
like 55 years ago? He hit the nail on the head.
I mean he was a visionary and he saw this happening
And this is exactly where I think we still are
today We're still like focused on a patient comes
in and we're focused on how many cavities you
have How am I going to fix that rather than the
most important question is we just step back
and go Why do you have cavities? Because if I
can find the answer to that question correctly
Can help you stop getting cavities, right? And
so we need to step back and take the approach
to look at that But I entire health care system
is disease driven The pharmaceutical industry,
you know 70 % of all Americans across all age
demographics from six months on 70 % take at
least one prescription medication per day You
know 50 % take two or more and twenty percent
take five or more. I mean, you know that you
saw that in your patients. Right. And so we're
we're very symptom disease based and looking
at things like treating them and they become
chronic diseases like take type two diabetes.
Right. Health and exercise would go a long way
to help. And diet would go a long way to helping
people. Get healthy and not have to take any
medications, but we don't approach it that way
It's like we've got a new wonder drug here take
this and it's going to lower your a1c I mean,
you see we're the only country in the world where
pharmaceutical companies can advertise on television
right and and so it's like We think what pill
can I take rather than how should I modify my
diet and maybe exercise? Uh, you know, how can
I do? Treat the cause of this in my personal
life and for it and an individualized care How
can I how can I do that and create that instead?
It's like, you know, which new which medication
should I be giving this patient? And the lower
day one see and we just leave the cause in place.
And so then there you know, we become You know
they become statistics of the you know, the pharmaceutical
industry and I think one thing That I'm hopeful
about is actually we have somebody watching it
to see finally saying wait a minute Let's get
healthy, right? Let's stop and let's back up
and you know love him or hate him whoever it's
like I The fact that we're starting to ask those
questions I think is really positive and for
me it's it creates hope that we're going to see
change in my lifetime to rather than Just continuing
to treat chronic disease Step back and and look
at okay. What's causing that and see if we can
fix that instead So, you know, I mean chris when
you and I were in school Type two diabetes was
Called adult onset right and the average age
of the person diagnosed with adult onset diabetes
within their late 20s You know the average age
of adult onset diabetes today in the United States
is 10 They're 10 years old. We have kids that
have So now we call it type 2 diabetes. I mean,
it's it's adolescent onset diabetes, right? And
and that's that should be alarming to us. Like
I don't know but anyway, so i'm hopeful i'm i'm
hopeful that we're going to see some Changes
and it's going to have to be patient driven too.
I think because the system is designed to benefit
You know pharmaceutical companies and etc I I
think it needs to be patient driven to patients
need to come in and go become their own advocate
and go no No, I don't want to do that. I want
to get off this medication I want to know what
it would take for me to get healthy so I don't
need this and you know I think it has to come
from both sides, but and I and I think there's
a growing an awareness Podcasts like this I think
make a huge difference in terms of getting information
out to the public and to the profession And I
think there's just a kind of an increasing awareness
and I think covid played a role in that too,
right? The whole us being forced to take the
covid vaccine that whole pandemic I think people
started to ask questions that we hadn't been
asking before. And I think that's playing a role
just on the general health knowledge. I think
the health IQ of your average person in the U
.S. I think are more inclined now to say, time
out, wait a minute. I want to know more about
that and start asking the important questions.
So anyway, that's where we're at. Thanks to Dr.
McKay, I developed a new set of questions that
I started asking people when I started learning
this science. And by the way, I love Brian always,
always been one of my heroes. I've always looked
up to him. So yeah, that's really cool. You know,
I haven't worked for him for a while, but we
still stay in touch and I consider him one of
my best friends. I don't doubt it. My definition
of a friend is someone that will tell you the
truth as far as they know it, not what they think
you want to hear. Yep. And that's what I've appreciated.
It was hard at times because I wasn't used to
that. But, you know, when he hired me and by
the way, I positioned myself with him. He didn't
have a choice. I was. And when he hired me, he
said, I only have one expectation of you, and
that's for you to grow. And I've had the most
growth in the last 25 years than I could even
begin to imagine happening hadn't I been in environment
on a daily basis where he was, because he taught
me so much. And one of the most important things
that he taught me was that we do wants dentistry
in his practice. And so I started shifting my
questions and I needed to know the answer to
this question because I refused to make an assumption
about it, the answer. And you might as well take
a three inch piece of duct tape and put it across
my mouth if I don't know the answer. And the
question is, tell me about what you want for
yourself. Because we now know that patients want
one or two things. They either want to move towards
the benefit of health or away from the consequences
of disease. And how you treat them clinically
is exactly the same, but your messaging and communication
with them is totally different, isn't it? Oh,
yeah, absolutely. It's an entirely different
conversation. Yes. And, you know, the first time
I just you know reflect back like 25 years and
I um started talking to patients differently
like they came in and i'm i'm You know, suddenly
i'm having them fill out a risk assessment form
and i'm trying to figure out why they're getting
cavities and um I'll never forget. I have patients
ask You know doc if this works and I stopped
getting cavities. Aren't you kind of putting
yourself out of business? And I said Yep, that's
and that's my goal and that's my plan at some
point time I want to be able to retire and go
fishing and You know, I want you all taken care
of so I can leave, you know the clear conscience,
but it was having an entirely different conversation
With patients about their about health we started
talking about that instead of like oh You have
two cavities and you need to have this done instead.
It was like well, what would you like? right
here's some options um for care and you know
here's you know here are some of your options
if you want to be healthy and stop having cavities
or you know here's some options if you want to
you know get your gums healthy and at the time
we didn't really appreciate what that meant for
the rest of the body right like we right like
we now know um there are numerous studies indicating
that that some of the bacteria that cause cavities
Play a major role in strokes, you know micro
bleeds in the brain They are the causative agent
for endocarp bacterial endocarditis. I've got
a friend who just in the hospital right now with
bacterial endocarditis and You know, it's real
and having you know Having a healthy mouth having
a healthy biofilm helps, right? So we started
having those kind of conversations and at first
they started looking at me kind of like, huh?
And then over a period of time, they all got
it and my hygiene team at first looked at me
like, what are you talking about? And over a
period of time, it was like they were leading,
you know, my my hygiene team was leading the
conversation like they were, you know, they were
educating the patient, having that. What do you
want for yourself? Here's your options. What
what would what do you want? Right. What's your
what's your goal here? And how can we help you
accomplish that? Which is a whole different approach
to health care. And unfortunately, we don't see
a whole lot of that in medicine just yet. You
know, so anyway, but it's changing like I say
and I think dentistry is playing a role in driving
that change right for those of us who are Taking
that approach to care. I think patients are becoming,
you know better educated and better informed
and starting to look at well I kind of want to
have that kind of care from my physician and
start asking those kind of questions and so I
think you know, I think you're just gonna see
continued growth and change all around but But
it's gonna be a generational change. Like I first
thought this would happen in like 10, oh, I told
John Featherstone, 10 years, everybody will be
doing this. And that was like in 2000, right?
That was 15 years ago, we passed that mile post
and we're not anywhere near there. And John actually,
when he retired, He and I had breakfast and he
said to me Kim that wasn't our job. Our job was
to advance the ball and we advanced the ball
and so I You know, and so I started looking at
it. Like yeah, we did we we moved it down the
field a long way and So maybe we don't carry
it across the goal line But but we've got the
ball going the right direction and so which was
our role here So, you know, we'll be we'll be
the catalyst, you know the catalyst gets drives
the chemical reaction and it's and it's disappeared
and done. Everybody forgets about it at the end.
But we're the catalyst in the meantime. Yes,
absolutely. You are. You know, it's about that.
There was a drawing I saw of somebody trying
to push a rock up the hill and they said, well,
It wasn't necessarily that we expected you to
move it uphill. We just wanted you to push it
and see what you could accomplish. But I think
what you've been doing is so important and had
a huge impact on my life and my patients and
helping them become advocates for their own care.
What do you think is necessary for people or
how would they go about it that want to make
this kind of change and how they take care of
their patients, but they don't know how to do
it. They don't know how to make that change.
You know, and that's a challenge, right? And
it's a challenge within. You got to have everybody
in the practice on the same page. Like you can't
have one person that has this belief and approach
on a team of eight or 10 or 14 people. Right.
It's like everybody has to understand it and
embrace it. And so, I mean, I think I made all
the mistakes one could possibly make on trying
to incorporate this into my practice. But I actually.
Read a book. It was titled tribal leadership
and it was a the concept was about as humans
We are most effective in groups of three and
if you want to make change in an organization
Find the two movers and shakers with you And
if you can get them to understand what you're
trying to accomplish and get them on your team
They'll change the organization the three of
you have the power to change the organization
and And so I took my two key hygienists out to
lunch and I said, listen, this is what I'm trying
to do. This is why I'm trying to do it. And they
got it. And within my practice, it finally, but
it took me three or four years of beating my
head against the wall trying to make that happen.
I think at this point in time for a practitioner,
a dental professional that wants to kind of pursue
this level of care. I tell you what, at Carry
Free, my customer representatives have trained
probably 10 ,000 demo practices at this point
in time. They know more about this than anybody
on the planet when it comes to training. And
those things are free. Like we do that for free
to help practices understand. We give them the
tools, the risk assessment forums, et cetera,
to help them put those wheels in motion. I think
organizations like AOSH, the American Academy
of Oral Systemic Health, is a great place to
go and learn more about this. For dentists and
hygienists, I was going to say for dentists and
hygienists, Doug Thompson certainly is an advocate
for how he approaches peri -donal disease from
a medical management standpoint. And he teaches
at the Koi Center. you know, if either a dentist
or a hygienist, you know, if you wanted to go
learn more about just risk assessment based care
and taking that approach with patients, go enroll
in the Kois Center. I mean, John Kois is a visionary
in our time. And so I'd say I would make those
kind of recommendations. You're listening to
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now let's jump back into today's episode. And
the information is out there I mean, you know
you can take you can catch up with a lot of these
people who are teaching this at meetings You
know, I teach you know at some of the major meetings
I teach local study clubs and I know a lot of
people do so And maybe you know, that's what
I always tell young people and and this was something
that and I know you can relate to this Chris
But find a mentor Right. I have a very good friend.
He's an unbelievable artist And he has a saying,
success leaves clues. And I love that statement.
That concept is like, go find somebody that's
doing it and study them, right? Figure out, because
they figured it out. And if they could figure
it out, they can help you figure it out rather
than you trying to sort it out on your own. And
so find a mentor. You know, so if you want to
learn how to do this, you're a young hygienist
or a young dentist Go find a practitioner that's
already doing this and say, you know, I really
want to do this. Can you help me? and I can't
imagine anybody saying no to that right like
I just can't imagine so because I As human beings
we love helping people and particularly in the
health professions in dentistry We all got into
dentistry because we love helping people right?
And so I think, you know, we love to help our
colleagues as well. Anyway, so that's my advice.
That's compassion in action, compassion for others.
The Dalai Lama had a quote that says, I'm just
paraphrasing it very loosely, but whether you're
young or old, rich or poor, there are times in
your life when you need help from others. And
I Medicine and dentistry is a huge example of
that. And the Dalai Lama just said, that's our
role, is to be helpers and be kind and help figure
out ways to help people that need some kind of
help. And there's a benefactor from North Dakota
that read that. and thinks that there needs to
be more compassion in medicine. And now they
have started to include some of us in dentistry
that he gave $100 million to UC San Diego to
create an institute. It couldn't be about Alzheimer's
or cancer or AIDS or anything other. It only
could be dedicated to the study. of compassion.
Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, so I've had the benefit
of taking some classes from them in January,
I took a three day course in lead with compassion.
And I think that is when you look at the bigger
picture of all of this, that I think that we
have to as a society, We have to bring back more
compassion in our lives and be willing to help
others that need help Based upon what the Dalai
Lama says, you know but I just see I think hygienists
are the chosen people in dentistry We of all
of anybody that provides care we get to spend
more time on a yearly basis than anyone else
in the dental field. In healthcare. In healthcare,
period. Typically, period. To me, it makes a
big difference when a doctor will take the attitude
that Brian did towards their team members. and
challenge them to create a bigger canvas of who
they can be for their patients. And that's what
he did for me. And that's what opened up a whole
new world of how I decided to take care of patients.
And it's people like you and others that are
developing these systems and I don't get involved
with all these products coming down the line.
I want a system that works. So I just have a
huge thank you to you for developing that and
it had such a huge role in how I help patients
create a healthy biofilm. You had a big influence
and impact in that. Well, thank you, Chris. You
asked about my superpower when we started this
and I said it is a blessing and a curse and there
are days I feel frustrated right and it's like
Why am I you know, it's like why am I doing this?
I feel like some days I feel like I'm beating
my head against the wall and then I will get
a patient will actually email me from across
the country somebody else's patient that Was
using our products and you know was at a dentist
that we had trained in that practice and thanking
me. And, you know, it's like, oh, yep, I needed
to hear that. That's why I do this. This is why
I get out of bed in the morning and just once
in a while hearing, you know, that you made a
difference, I think helps a lot. So thank you
for sharing that with me, Chris. You're making
a huge difference. I mean, I see the huge difference
that you're making. And I really appreciate that.
Well, mine, the reason why, you know, I've been
retired clinically for a while, but I still share
my beliefs because I know where my gifts come
from. And I have an obligation to not leave this
earth without sharing those gifts and sharing
them as much as I can. And so I don't want to
leave this earth with even one arrow left in
my quiver of gifts that you gave me that book.
And I'll never forget that I read that book.
I loved it. It was like, you know, use all your
arrows. Yeah. Don't leave anything. You know,
don't leave anything on the table. Give it everything,
because that's that's why we're here. Right.
Yeah. So I love that. I love that whole thought.
And thank you actually for recommending that
book to me. Oh, you're welcome. So, let's see.
I think it would be just great if you could say
a few words about the difference between coaching
a patient and educating them. You know, that's
a very good question, right? And you have to
be... Very careful. I spent two years in a coaching
program and I think the one of the challenges
that I saw first starting in this risk assessment
based care like 25 years ago was I realized I
needed to learn how to talk to the patients differently.
Like I needed to have a different conversation
and I felt like I didn't have the verbal skills.
to do that, right? We were trained how to do
that in dental school. We were trained how to
drill and fill. We weren't trained how to ask
the right questions and do motivational interviewing
or coaching or co -coaching or, you know, we
were taught to show them how to brush and floss.
For all the world that that does, right? I mean,
it's like... And so I think the difference between
educating the patient is showing them how to
floss. And that doesn't motivate anybody to floss.
If it did, everybody flossed, right? Because
hygienists, you guys are really good at that.
You got the big models and the teeth, and you've
been showing patients that forever. Very few
people floss or floss regularly, right? So just
showing somebody something doesn't change behavior
It's being able to help them identify what they
want See the benefit in that in their own life
and health and then being able to like Help them
as they need help. I mean I see coaching in in
terms of in classic coaching the work is all
on the patient You know you want to whatever
make this change in your life I am here to support
you but listen i'm not going to stand in your
bathroom every morning at 7 a .m and go remember
to floss You know if you want to make that change
i'm going to cheer you on and I might give you
some ideas or tools to help you create that new
habit, but I But I'm not going to do it for you.
You have to do that. Right. So when it comes
to peer coaching, in fact, it's best if the patient
comes up with the solution themselves. Like,
oh, how are you going to do that? How are you
going to remember to do that? So you get that
change. You know, we had this classic belief
that you could develop a new habit in 21 days.
And that is such a fallacy. We now know that
it takes about nine months and at nine months
with daily reminding. For us to create a sustainable
new habit nine months. This isn't a 321 day kind
of thing And so being able to help the patient
if they don't have a so we can't come up with
a solution Well, here's some here's an idea.
Here's what's worked for other patients of mine
Here's two or three ideas that you know, and
here's something that worked for me. You might
think about that you know at times I'll help
the the patient lead them a little bit in terms
of Giving them some ideas if they can't come
up with any on their own But if you can let them
come up with the idea and the solution on their
own and you can just help reinforce that That's
where you're going to be most successful I I
want to add one more thing chris because I think
When I was first doing this I was and I was doing
ending up i'm impatient to have a lot of cavities
start coming to me Like word of mouth and it's
like oh this guy is like, you know Help you and
help you stop getting cavities and I mean, you
know And so I saw these people that were quite
desperate, but they had Tremendous need for restorative
dentistry like they had mouths full of cavities
And so suddenly i'm doing I'm trying to treat
this from a medical standpoint and I find myself
doing all these major restorative cases on these
patients because At the end of the day I could
get them to stop having new cavities, but I still
had to restore the damage that was there and
I'll never forget one day during my coaching
program. I had this like I would sequentialize
the treatment So first we're going to do this
then we're going to do that and then we're going
to do this So I lay out their restorative care
like in four or five logical steps. It was my
idea, right? Yeah, and One day I realized You
know if you want somebody to be successful like
I would have a patient Let's say that they needed
to start brushing and flossing better and they
also needed to give up Mountain dew right because
they were drinking six a day, right? And so we'd
identify those two risk factors. We'd talk about
it. And then I would say, OK, here's where you
should start. And I finally got to the point
where I realized, what would you like to do first?
Right? We're only going to try it. We're only
going to do one thing at a time, because it's
hard enough to make behavioral change. You can
only do one at a time. Which one would you pick?
And found that instead of me telling them what
to do, letting them decide, a lot more successful
for them and then if I could get them to come
up with a solution and I'd press them like I
want to have a specific solution like take the
example of the two patients at both say I want
to lose 15 pounds and The one says yeah, I'm
just gonna I'm gonna lose it. I'm working on
that and the other one says well I'm gonna start
it. I mean right from here. I'm going to the
gym. I'm gonna get a gym membership I'm gonna
be there like Four mornings a week before work.
I'm going to start measuring portions of food
I'm going to look at hidden sugars in my you
know, somebody that has a specific plan of those
two people who's most likely to lose 15 pounds
Somebody that has it has come up with a very
specific Plan for themselves and so if I could
just help patients create that plan and let them
pick where they wanted to start It became a lot
more successful. So It's a long -winded answer
to your very short question and I apologize but
but I think you know the difference between educating
a patient and coaching is Educating it was just
demonstrating something and coaching is actually
helping them understand Why they want to do it
and help motivate them to actually accomplish
it and giving them the skills they need to make
it happen Yeah That's good. You know Malcolm
Gladwell in the tipping point talks about you
got a have three components. You got to make
it personal, practical, and your message has
got to be sticky. So it doesn't go in one ear
and out the other. So yeah, all good things.
Yeah, look at the growth you've had. Oh, my goodness.
You know, I you know, I was just on a guest on
a podcast two days ago. And they started talking
about all the things that I'd done in my career,
right? And they asked, you know, do you ever
look back and go, wow, like, you know, how did
you get there? And because I had actually asked
the host, like, wow, how did how did you how
did you get to there in your life? Right. And
they were like, well. And I and I started thinking
about and then they asked me and I started thinking
about it It's like, you know when I graduated
from dental school, I just want to be a dentist
I want to be a very good dentist. I wanted to
have a great practice. I wanted to help all my
patients And then I got you know, my curiosity
that's a curse to my curiosity took You know
took me to the point of like well, how can I
do this better? You know, and you know, I continued
to always look for innovations. I felt like it
was part of my responsibility as stewardship
in the profession to leave it better than when
I was inherited it, right, from the people ahead
of us. And so I was always looking for a better
way, always doing that. And if you're curious,
you know, I kind of went through one door and
that was a whole new hallway with a bunch of
doors. Went through a different door and my curiosity
led me down another hallway and pretty soon you
end up like You know being a clinical dentist
was such a small part of my my life and career,
right? I mean I love clinical practice but and
I look back on my career and it actually was
a very just a small percentage of what I've actually
ended up doing with my life in my education in
terms of um creating you know or building businesses
creating products changing philosophies writing
books uh having my own podcast if you'd have
told me five years ago i'd have a podcast i'd
have laughed at you and i'm sure i'm sure you
can kind of identify with that chris but then
i sit here and go people ask well how'd you do
that and it's like you know it was just a series
of decisions but It was somewhat serendipitous
led by my curiosity because like I say my that
wasn't my plan like I look back I absolutely
wouldn't change anything in my life. I've loved
every opportunity i've had um And oh another
person A great dentist friend has a saying that
persistence creates opportunity Like just keep
doing it and opportunity will come and having
that I think that optimism You know, I've been
able to do so many things research, you know
inventions I I just it's been so much fun, you
know, and I'm still having fun. I retired from
clinical practice like you did I retired in 2019
I miss my team my patients and what have you
but it's given me the time and flexibility and
freedom to actually do more in terms of, I think,
helping a greater number of people. So I'm just,
I'm living my best life, you know. Well, I love
that you have used the word curiosity many times
today because I see the difference. I learned
the difference. We lose our curiosity as we start
to grow up. Children ask anywhere from more than
300 questions a day. How come? Why is that? Are
you sure? Mommy, why is this happening? And as
we get older, we come to think we know the answers
to all the questions. So we stop asking questions
and we lose curiosity. And so I love that. You
have stayed curious and your curiosity has driven
a lot of your success in helping people. So that's
a great legacy. What specifically do you want
your legacy to be? Oh, you know, I haven't even
thought about that, Chris. I think I want to
be a great example for my children and grandchildren
that I want them to have a belief that they can
accomplish anything in the world that they Can
dream of right? I guess that if I could Leave
leave some example for them that anything is
possible If you just believe and if you're willing
to put the work in if you're willing to be persistent
opportunities will come and I think for me, that's
that's the most important legacy, you know being
a a great husband and father and grandfather.
And then I think, you know, from a professional
standpoint, just that I'm that I was a positive
influence and I and I help people, you know.
I had a physician, he was elderly at the time.
And I said, looking back at your life, how would
you define, you know, success? And he was in
his 90s at the time. And he said, Kim, I want
to believe that I help more people than I hurt.
And I thought, you know, what a beautiful statement,
because I think we unintentionally hurt people
in our life as we go through our journey. And
just knowing that or hoping that you're you're
helping more people. I think that's that's kind
of a legacy I'd like to have. Yeah. And it's
a big one. And it's right on point, sir. Oh,
thanks, Chris. You're welcome. Any last words
you have for our listeners today? I, you know,
I guess, Chris, I really appreciate you. I think
they're I really appreciate your invitation here
to be on your podcast. I've enjoyed this conversation.
I love talking to you and talking about all these
ideas and topics. Think is the same thing I would
tell them is is become your own advocate when
it comes to your health care Become your own
advocate educate yourself ask questions Don't
just accept the you know here take this pill
But why am I taking this pill and what could
what could I do? Maybe in my lifestyle that might
alter that so I didn't need it You know, how
can I get healthy? You know, ask those kind of
questions. And at the same point in time, have
faith and hope and the confidence that whatever
it is you want to accomplish in your life, it's
possible, right? I mean, you know, it's possible.
So I think that's the message I'd like to leave.
Absolutely. And it's a great one. And thank you
so much for being on the Health Lifelines podcast
with me today. I really appreciate it. Thank
you, Chris, and I can't wait to see you again
sometime. All right, that sounds good. That's
it for today's episode of Health Lifelines, brought
to you by the Lifeguard Approach. I hope you
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