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and found your friend trying to convince a raccoon
to take shots of crime with them, this is the
podcast for you. I'm your host, Pip. With me
tonight, as always, are my co -hosts, Gibbles
and Gibbs. And welcome to the Now We Consume
podcast. Say hello, guys. Special guest. Sorry,
but my cat has decided that now is the time she
wants attention, and in typical cat fashion,
does not care about my interest. So I'm just
going to hold her while I move things around
the computer. Yep, okay, we're good. That works.
You know what? I'm going to put you over here.
Sorry. It happens. Life happens at the speed
of life, and you just got to adjust. I'm waiting
for the cat to get up and just start going right
at the camera. So welcome back, everybody. We
have hopefully a good show tonight. We're going
to be talking about a pretty cool topic. We've
previously spoken about some of the legal reformatory
processes that are in place in this country,
and we've shared some of our thoughts and opinions
on the way that it is all being done and could
be done a little bit better. Tonight, however,
we're going to take a walk down the path that
so far has only been explored in a laboratory
setting. So if you could imagine for a moment
a future where instead of just rotting in prison
for years, a criminal gets hooked up to a pod
or some other kind of BCI brain computer interface
and has AI generated memories forcibly shoved
into their brain. And then they walk out a reformed
individual in minutes or even hours or possibly
even days. It sounds like pure science fiction,
but it's called Cognify. And as of about a year
ago, it's been kind of taking off online. It's
a concept from, I'm going to butcher this dude's
name. I'm sorry. It's Hashim Al -Ghali. He's
a filmmaker and a molecular biologist. It is
not a real brick -and -mortar company yet, but
everything that this man's trying to do has been
inspired by real lab animal experiments and other
human technology experiments that have taken
place all the way back from 2013. So we're going
to discuss some of the neurological and psychological
rehab potentials that this tech could offer.
As well as some of the dark misuse potentialities
and why it feels like it's something straight
out of Minority Report, Demolition Man, Black
Mirror, just to name a few. Total Recall. Oh,
Total Recall. Hell yeah. I forgot about that
one. That's great. There's like several Star
Trek episodes about that very topic. Oh, that's
good. Yes. The one with O 'Brien. Yes. It's the
particular one. So before we get too far into
this, what about this whole concept kind of excites
you guys or scares you the most about it? Just
kind of going off of the intro stuff. What concerns
me, I guess, is this seems like a natural progression
with something like Neuralink that's already
on the way out or on the way in and coming out.
I guess my concern is going to be, number one,
who the hell is going to be held responsible
and who's going to be like... I don't know, actually
having any oversight over something like that.
Because theoretically, it doesn't just have to
be for punishment. Like, I know we're talking
about punishment. That's the main goal. But if
you're imprinting memories and experiences and
or removing other ones or changing in any way,
there's a lot of things you can do to people
that will never, ever, ever be reported or understood.
And you thought MKUltra was bad? Just wait till
you see this shit. That's what really fucking
scares me. I don't trust any of that. I was excited
to get your take on this because I know that
you've paid attention to a lot of that stuff.
Oh yeah. Ultimate sleeper cell. Bucky from the
Avengers. The way he got activated. This is literally
the best way to potentially program a whole line
of sleeper soldiers like that. Could you imagine
just being out there at, like, a school function
and something's done accidentally and all the
soccer moms just go full -on Karen? A lot of
them already are full -on Karens. Yeah, but,
I mean, just straight -up ninjas, you know? Oh,
my God. That would be terrifying but yet hilarious
at the same time. Oh, do you remember the advertisement
reels from The Division? Where they have, like,
the average stay -at -home girlfriend and her
watch gets activated and she's, like, instant,
like, fucking secret agent girl. Right. That
kind of shit. It'd be like that. Yes. That'd
be kind of amazing. I think the problem would
be is that warfare would completely change because
then imagine, and I almost want to point to Matrix
or something like this. Imagine being able to
upload. a hundred years worth of combat experience
into somebody, and then you just release them
back in the wild. But you do that with millions
of people. All of a sudden, you don't have a
standing military you have to pay. You just simply
say some magic words over the megaphone, and
a million people show up ready for war, and you
can't fucking tell them apart. No, any of this
stuff, no. I guess the way I look at it is the
human brain is one of the only sacred things
that we have that should remain untouched. You
can study it all you want. But don't make any
changes unless it's like something like medically
necessary kind of thing to like save a life.
That's different. But you're talking about altering
something when there's no deficiencies or abnormalities.
No. Like, for example, I wouldn't mind if somebody,
let's just say, was committed for a crime that's
like super, super, super bad. Then maybe. But
I guess that that my worry is that as soon as
you open that Pandora's box, it does not stop
there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It'll never close the
moment you open it. That's it. I mean, look at
AI. I know we're the show of AI. That's really
what we talk about 40 % of the time. But I mean,
look at that. What's that Pandora's box? What's
the Will Smith box was open with him eating spaghetti
and looking like a Picasso painting. Once we
saw that the first time, ever since then, nothing's
been the same. I'm 40 % AI. Yeah, no, there's
everything you talked about. We're going to kind
of touch on a little bit later. But something
that you said kind of triggered. One of our earlier
episodes, the digital afterlife, this kind of
technology could really pave the way for something
like that. Because you're going to be mapping
the brain and getting the memories and even manipulating
the memories. That's like baseline technology
for that technology. I like this. I like where
that's going. The only thing is... what would
happen? Do you get like that Amazon show where
everybody's in, you know, after life shows upload?
Yes. Is it like that? Or is it like the Johnny
Depp movie where, you know, all of a sudden he
loses his flip in mind and he somehow gets let
loose with internet information. Transcendence.
It just goes, yes, that's the movie. That's a
great fucking movie. God. Yeah. That's a lot
better than I thought it was going to be. You
ain't kidding. It was very underrated. But, yeah,
so that's... I know your original topic was more
to do with... Is your original topic here more
to do with specifically with jails and kind of
the rehabilitation process, or are you going
more general here? Kind of both. Okay. I have
some sections. So first off, what is Cognify
itself? The original concept of the way that
this is intending to be used is twofold. You
have the prison rehab and then you have the mental
rehab. So in the prison rehab, the prisoner would
choose to do the Cognify rehab over their full
sentence. They would get a brain scan that would
map all their neural pathways. AI that's used
would craft a custom set of artificial memories.
It would also include experiences from the crime,
from the victim's perspective, and from their
perspective, and it would build a separate algorithm
based on empathy and guilt. It would be implanted
into their head via a headset or in a pod, something
like that, some kind of a BCI, brain -computer
interface. Minutes in the chamber or whatever
the setup is would feel like literal years. Determining
how long and what the process actually is, whether
they're just forced to relive that event over
and over and over for literal years is an ethical
debate because is that humane in that respect?
I mean, if somebody commits like a horrible,
heinous, violent crime to somebody and they live
and they're able to upload the memory of that
event. and make somebody else relive that event
as punishment, personally, I think that's just,
that's just cause. That is like the perfect way
to prevent that from happening. Because what
you do to somebody will literally be done to
you in your head. You will have the full experience,
the full brunt of everything that you've done,
literally done to you. And you will walk away
feeling as though it was done to you. And you
will live the rest of your life thinking that
you, that it was done. Yeah. But the only issue
with that, the PTSD of that, and then does that
mentally break the person because that's been
done? That's that's where the worse because of
it. That's where the, the custom AI pathways
and everything come into play. First, it would
be lived and then it would be healed over time.
Because again, This is done over years in the
mind. So if you're given X amount of time to
relive the event, then you're given X amount
of time to therapy out the event in your head
and treat and confront and discuss and literally
just like Freud your way out of it. Do therapy
for. literally 10 years intense therapy, you
know, address everything have. And like you were
saying with demolition, man, they had like docile
tendencies for the main character implanted in.
So there could be behavior modifications that
could also go along with this. There could be
empathy behaviors that could be also put in place.
So they could literally just feel more susceptible.
to a lot of this training or, or, um, I don't
know if it's training or, um, just the, uh, the
therapy, we'll call it. But the, the goal of
all of this is empathy building so that they
come away feeling literal remorse for what they
did. And it would lead to lower recidivism. And
in theory, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper
than prisons. because this treatment but they're
still gonna have to take medication when they're
done potentially but it may not be long term
or permanent but the cost to run a prison versus
the cost of a one day or maybe just a multi -day
treatment plan is going to be leaps and bounds
cheaper so do you think that sounds more humane
just from that or or is it pretty much just horrifying
because I think back to that Black Mirror episode,
the Black Museum, where the memory of the guy
hitting the electric chair was just done over
and over and over. Or wasn't Black Mirror also
did the episode where it was the guy trying to
get promoted to be a supervisor and he stuck
him in VR where he was in a confined area for
just years to what felt like years to him. and
he was being starved and tortured and all that
stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Only just to get
promoted to be a supervisor. Yeah. To, like,
managerial. You might be confused in two episodes,
but the one, he got left on the planet in the
second go of the Star Trek episodes, or the Star
Trek and Jason episodes. Right. No, this one
was not Star Trek. Okay. This was straight up,
like, a Black Mirror kind of thing. Okay. but
yeah so it was uh oh i'm trying to remember the
actor's name he was an ant -man the first ant
-man talked really fast oh that guy yeah the
hispanic gentleman yeah no oh the guy that plays
hector and everything yeah yeah yeah talks really
fast and he goes oh and then this happened and
this happened and was he in black mirror i don't
remember him being like i said it may not have
been black mirror but It was one of those videos,
you know, where it played out like, you know,
either Black Mirror or Twilight Zone kind of
thing where it starts off where he's in a confined
space, almost like a circular cement area. And
there's a single opening, like a door, I guess.
And he's able to hear somebody and he's able
to talk to them. But otherwise, he's supposed
to be like. I think it's like they're supposed
to be pushing something around in a circle. Oh,
okay. And, you know, the more they work, the
better off they're supposed to be. You know,
just by the time it's over with, you know, and
they pull them out, you know, oh, well, you know,
your score is this, and you didn't do this very
well. So we may not be able to help you with
that. And then you see all these other people,
their heads are down because they're in the simulation
going through the same thing. No. No, no. That's
horrifying to me. Yeah. Because they could easily
do something like that, especially if you're
not guilty of anything. Right. You're just trying
to get a promotion. Oh, your explanation there
reminds me of that Rick and Morty episode where
they were playing the game where you live somebody
else's life. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Morty goes into
it. he tries to live just a normal life and then
rick pulls him out going yeah that sucked and
then everybody's like he's going for a whole
new high score just ah that that one was good
yeah so what i was thinking with that that whole
that part of the topic is i really feel like
as with most things in science technologies depends
on depends on how it's used and what kind of
oversight there is so I think for certain criminals,
certain crimes, maybe for things that are habitual
or it's clear that someone is so far gone that
there is no traditional therapy or traditional
methods that would work. As an option, I do think
it makes sense for some people. Because I look
at it as like euthanasia is always like the last
alternative. Just bottomize them. Let's not go
there. Well, digital lobotomy, you know. Yeah,
that doesn't really work out for their quality
of life. But I guess the point I'm getting at
is as another option, it can be utilized. But
there has to be a lot of oversight. There has
to be a lot of mitigating factors. There has
to be a lot of people signing off on it. And
there has to be direct oversight and direct access
as to what is happening. So there should be a
way to review the logs, review the data, review
everything. And there should be a process, I
would think, put in place to be able to reverse
the process or undo it if necessary. Because
I'd assume if you can implant a memory, hopefully
they'd have the ability to get rid of a memory,
which I know might be more tough. But there's
got to be some fail -safes in place. Because
my concern would be you're not going to 100 %
know how everybody's going to react to something
like that. You can have all the data you want,
but in the end, we are people where our experiences,
our lived experiences are very much individualized
in how we process and how we handle certain emotions,
certain things. So I don't trust an AI to handle
something like that. It would have to be something
that's like a big undertaking because to be able
to program and analyze all that would be very
extensive. But I do believe for the right patients,
for the right people. it could make sense but
again all factors in on cost too also factors
in on time because i don't know this is something
i don't know this is a question i gotta ask you
but have we proven at all that like in that kind
of state you would be able to implant a memory
at a hundred times speed or a thousand times
speed where you could do several years in the
course of a day like is that something that's
confirmed because i know nothing about that part
it's still in the lab and they're they have shown
uh some success with lab animals okay yeah using
like was it the blue light therapy or whatever
the well alter or erase memories the yeah i've
actually got that in the next section which gibbs
if you want to take this next section i i want
to see how how mind blown that you get uh as
as you're kind of bringing everybody else into
the into the fold here well as long as you highlight
the next section there's a couple of different
Oh, there we go. Ah, okay. Thank you. Appreciate
it. So you wanted to know how close we are. This
is literally how close are we? That was the setup
on that one. Yeah. So starting with 2013 at MIT.
All right. Fuck you. You have me read that. That's
why you did that. No, it's optogenetics. Optogenetics.
Optogenetics. Optogenetics. Research. Attorney
Gawa lab implanted false fear memories in mice,
making them terrified of safe places by reactivating
specific neurons during shocks. It was causal
proof that memories can be fabricated in animals.
Interesting. So there's your, well, that was,
that was, that was back in 2013. So that has
most likely progressed at least somewhat. So
they can make lab animals afraid of a known safe
place and likely comfortable in a known dangerous
place. So go ahead and continue on. More recent
advances, wireless optogenetics devices, 2025
Northwestern micro LED implants, for example,
for precise control in behaving animals without
wires. Okay, so I'm assuming it's, did you look
into that product in particular? I couldn't find
the actual stuff, so I'm assuming it's still
just in the lab and has not been patented or
otherwise released. But the best I could find
was that it's literally just using light to control
behavior and activate specific parts of the brain
during lab tests. Oh, that's great. you know
in the show fallout they're kind of going with
the whole idea of like control and everything
but not using optics but instead just yes you
know radio waves pulses yeah yeah very very similar
path yeah yes very on brand for them so japanese
researchers recently 2025 made a breakthrough
showing that a certain type of blue light therapy
can actually alter or even erase memories in
the human brain The research is still very early
in its progress, but the early results were published
late last year. So, hmm. I would love to know
the data on how the hell you can erase memories
just with a blue light. Yeah. And total, total,
like 100 % sidebar. I got to set up like a rant
camera or something like Joe Scott does. A reel
came out just the other day that I stumbled across
while. finger banging my phone on Instagram.
Ariana Grande came up and she was being interviewed
and she let it slip that some company did a light
therapy to make her lose her memories. So she
couldn't remember what the person was talking
about. Now, I don't know how much I can believe
of that girl because I don't know what the hell
she's been through, but something about her has
drastically changed over the past couple of years.
If you just kind of look at her from a distance.
So, and it seemed like a genuine kind of like,
I'm just kind of saying this because this is
what happened moment. And it was, it was like
a very casual, like, oh yeah, that just happened
the other day. Kind of, kind of interaction.
So I don't know. Take into account is how crazy
some of them can be because of the fact they're
so detached from you ain't kidding. They're,
they're nuts. But I thought that was just a very
odd coincidence that I'm doing all this shit,
and that kind of popped up. So, you know, it
was funny. So I wonder what the crossover is
with all the rave kids that saw all the blue
lights and then coming home and not remembering
anything. That's drugs. That's just drugs. Just
drugs. I always hope maybe one of them wasn't
drugs. Drugs. Maybe it was one of them. It was
one of them. It's drugs. That'd be funny. That'd
be funny. Goes to a rave. Is the one guy that
doesn't do drugs gets your mind erased by a certain
series of blue lights? Yes. You're the one guy
that cops don't fucking believe that didn't take
anything. I don't know who I am, man. Where am
I? Oh, Jesus Christ. He took some drugs in the
butthole again. Come on, Jeffrey. Who's Jeffrey?
I mean, to some degree, I mean, we know that
blue lights from computer monitors can fatigue
your eyes and make you feel fatigued. So I don't
know what the correlation would be, but I mean,
we do know that it does cause that at least.
So whatever they may have found that I can do
elsewhere, God only knows. Uh -huh. So, but yeah,
go ahead and continue on Gibbs. All right, let's
see. On the human side, USC Wake Forest hippocampal
prosthesis trials are ongoing to 2025 and 2026.
Implants restore memory encoding in epilepsy
and brain injury patients by bridging damaged
areas with AI -predicted signals. I don't like
where this is going. Boosts recall, wow, an 11
% to 54 % in tests, not creating fake memories
but repairing real ones. Fully implantable versions
are targeted soon. Yeah, how about no? No, this
is targeting actual real -world medical applications.
People that have had strokes, epilepsy, possibly
even dementia, and the other bad one. Alzheimer's.
God. Yeah, fuck. Do you need a brain implant,
buddy? Shut your whore mouth. So this kind of
technology could theoretically assist in treatments
with those types of disorders. I guess I don't
mean to be the pessimist. I do agree. I'm sure
it can help some people, but am I the only person
that's just been very, how should I say, underwhelmed
with the recent status of the medical system
in our country where I don't trust anyone to
handle anything like that with my brain. I'm
sorry. But even if it could help people, it really
concerns me. Because, like, sure, it could. But
what if it don't? Yeah. You know. And how many
hospitals? Sorry, you go. I was going to say,
and then what hospital is going to be willing
to take that kind of liability on? And then as
we learn with more recent medications, you can't
always sue them. Sometimes the government makes
it illegal to sue the people even if you get
something wrong. That's fun. I don't know. Do
you really want to risk it? But that is kind
of crazy. Yeah. Wow. Boost recall 11 to 54%.
Uh -huh. I mean, fuck. I can't remember what
I had for breakfast yesterday. Might be on the
short list for that. That scares me. Oh, my God.
Anyways. You don't remember what you were doing
yesterday? I don't remember what I was doing
today. Right. Also, the TikTok brain rot in my
brains were really bad. I'm going to have to
remove that. It's not worth it. TikTok bad. Yeah.
Just not good for the old noggin. But anyways.
Animal memory manipulation has been proven. Human
memory restoration is in trials. Could it lead
to the full seamless implantation of custom narratives?
Total recall. Budget vacations. And that's where
you were talking about... Not Red Faction. God,
I keep... Total Recall. Same thing. Shut up.
Not even close. Not even the same genre. It's
on Mars, okay? Okay, okay. You get a pass for
that part. They're both red, I guess. I do like
the idea of cheap vacations, though. Not for
nothing. Hopping into a little memory pod, you
know, take a trip to Hawaii. It takes IRL like
three hours. You go for three weeks. I mean,
theoretically, it could make it so that you could
live a long -ass time being plugged into one
of those and having memories altered. Oh, my
God. But could you imagine if something went
wrong and... they accidentally left something
going that should have been, and then next thing
you know, you felt like you've been living for
millions of years. Not only that, but who's going
to be the first guy that goes into memory and
they forget to add his penis back in? They spend
the entire fucking year going, where is it? Oh,
no. You've been non -consensually transed. Congratulations,
sir. They're, like, traumatized just from a fake
memory. Oh, God. Oh, Jesus. Your punishment is
fucking Diddy's bathroom. Add to all the baby
oil. I don't know. There's so many ways you could
mess with that. Oh, yeah. I keep waking up and
I just feel oil. I go to sleep and I still feel
it on my body. Oil everywhere. I can't get clean.
But it is cool for people that actually have
issues going on. Yeah. But boy, it's all fun
and games until something goes wrong. Yeah. So
yeah, everything right now is still somewhat
in the science fiction and in the lab environment.
But all the building blocks, the BCIs, the optogenetics,
the AI modeling, everything is in place. So everything
is advancing and it's advancing pretty fast.
Al Galili himself. It says that the animal successes
plus all the AI that's advancing could make everything
feasible in under a decade if ethics allow. Now,
let me just say that again. It's feasible in
under a decade if ethics allow. But if you remove
ethics from that equation, how fast could this
tech progress? Oh, I'm sure it could be like
next year if you really want to push it. Yeah.
Put it this way. No limits? that shit would progress
faster than fast food has in America. If you
let it without limits, without anything, the
problem is nothing would happen because in a
weird alternate universe, we'd all be in our
own little individual uploaded whatever, living
out memories that we never had. So I guess I
worry that society itself would cease to exist
because nobody would be involved in their actual
biological body. in real time they'd be doing
other shit or you could even have a situation
where uh you know what if you got somebody that
goes in for you know whatever it was they needed
to get done and then they come back and go no
put me back under please this is that was so
much better and you have people that are willing
to hurt themselves just to get back so then you've
got uh matrix issues people wanting to go into
the matrix and escape real life knowing that
but i guess i have the other question too of
like do you give the same legal rights to people
that have had memory augmentations because here's
the way i look at it is every job requires you
to be skilled in order that job to be hired so
what happens if you're the person with the money
that can just be skilled at every job Do then
you create a society where like the top 20 %
of people do 90 % of the jobs, or do you have
a system to where anybody at any moment can learn
your job? So therefore no skilled jobs are actually
worth it. Cause I can just go to the memory parlor
and download how to be a plumber for five 99
a month. And then I'll just do all my own plumbing
work. I never hire a plumber. I guess this, this
goes down that slippery slope of if no. Information
and knowledge and information requires the time
to skillfully learn it and understand it. Then
it has no value. Okay, so think of this. If you're
hired on for a company, they give you the information
on lease, on lend, as long as you're with the
company and then using the ability to erase memories.
When you leave the company, it is forcibly taken
back. Then you're just a vessel. But you're a
vessel making money. You're just a meat robot.
Aren't we already? You're a robot with extra
steps. Exactly. That's what we are now. Oh, Jesus.
It'll be for the empire. We are meat robots.
We have the shiniest meat suits. Okay? We already
are meat robots. Let's just do it that way. I
volunteer as Space Marine. Thank you. Yes, Sam.
At that point. I guess that's the world we'd
be going into. Now, I would agree that I think...
There are certain things that it would be cool
to be able to upload things like your entire
educational system or college or whatever like
different things But boy would have to be you
sparingly Because man, it would be so easy Just
to learn any job you want any a bit of information
you want be incredibly like a battlefield earth
Yeah Yes God I have the humans that all the humans
that weren't educated and they jumped into that
machine and got knew how to fly a fighter jet
by the time they were done yep yeah i haven't
seen that movie in a long time god that one wasn't
underrated that one wasn't the greatest it wasn't
that good but it wasn't as bad as some other
things it wasn't you know if we did that people
wouldn't have families No. They wouldn't need
real families. Procreation would cease to exist
so eventually the human race would die off. Probably.
With something like that. Yeah. Because how many
people are just going to make a memory being
like, I want to have a family with this celebrity
or this person and just click a button and go
into the thing. Right. Whatever you pre -programmed
or wanted, that is the, you know, and then you're
going to come back out of it and whatever you
programmed, it's going to be, make your life
look like a disappointment no matter what it
is. It's okay. My life is already a disappointment.
I mean, you also have the issue of, you know,
what if you have somebody that's like, I want
to go in there and I want to have like, just
go murder hobo in my memories. i want to have
the memory of i just went murder i walked into
you know you have like the far left leaning person
just i i wanted to go murder hobo on everybody
in trump tower or you got somebody on the right
saying i'm gonna go murder hobo in los angeles
of every you know whoever you know alternate
lifestyle person you're just gonna have some
issues with all of this yeah yeah we definitely
need some limitations yeah so that kind of segues
us into the next section. Gibles, do you want
to take this one? Oh, I guess I'll read now.
Yay. Yes, there is a dark side with the misuse
and ethical minefields. Not that far. Up one.
Oh, too far. Well, we've been talking about this.
Minority report, the Halo device. Yeah, just
kind of all the different... Yeah. The parallels
of sci -fi and different movies that this is
already kind of touching the tips of. Yeah, I
mean... I mean, I sort of see it with Minority
Report because of the Halo device putting the
criminals into a dreamlike coma. Okay. We could
technically do that now, honestly. You know,
and save on, you know, serious costs when it
comes to prisons. You know, oh, you're in for
life, and... You have no possibility of getting
out. Well, guess what? Now you're in a coma and
we'll drip feed you the rest of your days. You
know, you can get away with that. See something
like that. I'm waiting for them to figure out
how to use the human brain to mine crypto. And
then the criminals can be turned into just crypto
miners. You are no different than the matrix.
We can get our video cards back. Literally, the
more people we jailed, the stronger AI gets because
they're using it for processing for crypto. Oh,
my God. Commit crimes, feed the AI. Why do I
feel like... I can't even say this one. Never
mind. Say it. No. They would be promoting crime
so that more people could... Oh, God. The algorithm
just promotes crime so that it can get stronger.
Yes. It would really happen. Oh, yeah. Oh God,
that hurts my brain. That's hilarious and terrifying
all at the same time. I mean, like I was saying
is just, yeah. Demolition, man. Of course. That
to me is like, that's the first time I really
thought about something like that where, okay,
you could put somebody into stasis and then rewire
the brain to either be more docile, violent.
You could. give them weapon mastery or you could
teach them to you know crochet all that kind
of stuff no i mean the only thing about it that
really i don't know if it was more of a continuity
issue or if that was their intention was like
it wasn't the end all be all like john spartan
the main protagonist was able to kind of still
work past those things even though they put it
in his brain is like hardwired in he was still
able to like why do i want to crochet all of
a sudden and just kind of work past it yeah it
was like an aggression response is all it was
but now the the biggest thing between uh minority
report and demolition man and cognify both of
those required like long -term stasis for the
treatment to work cognify is a very short -term
deal but go ahead gibbs what did you say what
i wanted to ask is something i didn't think about
until now was you guys know about the nature
versus nurture debate when it comes to people,
where how much of it... So for the audience,
it's the debate of how much of your personality
and who you are is defined by nature as in how
you were born versus nurture, how you were raised.
Could we... Would it make more sense, rather
than to add new memories, to just change people's
memories from when they were younger to have
them like a better upbringing, better family
values, better family life maybe? better time
in school, better time. Would that make more
sense? That way you're not technically destroying
anything or adding anything negative. You're
just rebuilding them. Do you think that would
work as a better alternative? So what we do then
is once a child is a certain age, like eight
or nine, we release them onto an island and then
whoever comes out the strongest and survives.
We then bring them back into the fold and then
cognify them, and then they can go about their
life. What are you, a technological Sparta? No,
that's not. Enter, techno Sparta enters the chat.
Jesus Christ. That's right. Looks at a bunch
of nine -year -olds. Ah, yes, a fight to the
death it is. No, it's not. I feel like. That's
maybe more erasing the person that they were
instead of changing the person that they're going
to be. But I do see value in it as far as the
ultimate goal of the outcome. Because at that
point, you're going to more or less guarantee
that there's not going to be recommission. The
recidivism rate will drop to basically zero at
that point. Because all the factors that led
to the commissions of the crimes will mentally
go away. Now, I know that does mean basically
you are erasing the person. You're effectively
destroying them. So is that considered murder?
Are the memories of what a person has make them
up was my ultimate question. I mean, yes and
no. Are the memories of a person equivalent to
their physical state? That this is the morality
argument that I wanted to... bring up morality
is a a big one in this because yeah you're you're
um you're changing someone's baseline yeah because
i because you always have the situations where
like somebody's brain gets damaged and then they
come out different like some people all of a
sudden they're able to speak another language
or Their accent changes or their personality
changes. Some people become more violent. Other
people become docile. You know, something about
them completely changes. I had a grandmother
that she got dementia and she went from I could
talk to her about anything. We got along great
to all of a sudden she hated me. yeah to the
point she almost wanted to be violent it was
insane i laughed my ass off but you know she
thought i was the worst human being alive yeah
so okay the compare the whole um compare the
the therapies then you've got the the stasis
with the passive and then the cognify with the
active um Do you think it's better with the active
reprogramming and the forced guilt regret? Or
do you think it's better for the slow burn? I
think it depends. Honestly, I need the data on
that one. That's something that we'd have to
explain to a bunch of violent criminals to see
what happens. Because I think they have their
uses. Yeah, definitely something more like a
passive mental prison would be the case of like,
wow, this person assaulted like 35 people and
is a repeat offender. And clearly they're not
scared of jail. Have fun in the abyss for 90
,000 years. Good luck. But at the same point,
at the same point, now you someone that like
robbed a store, you know, I don't think that's
the way to do it. You bring up a very special
point there. Have fun in the abyss for 90 ,000
years. Where does the line get drawn for, okay,
we're going to instill mental prison punishments
and the punishment is so far beyond what we could
do in real life. But because now we have access
to the mental realm, we can put them through
all kinds of hell that we can, that we can literally
imagine. Yeah. Right, but that comes into the
whole ethics thing again. Are we willing to go
and push ethics aside and figure out what's the
line that we can tow before the human mind breaks?
Here's the thing. If you have the right people
in charge, yes, we're doing the rehab on here.
Here's their rehab program. Here's what they're
being put through. In reality, they're spending
90 ,000 years in the abyss. yeah now is it the
abyss of that you just don't see nothing hear
nothing but you're you can hear yourself and
dealer's choice make a program whatever you want
exactly you can do it like almost like doctor
strange where they're going through 90 000 different
multiverses where you're just overloaded in every
sense imaginable and here's the thing it's not
it's not just visual limitations well you could
talk about things like pain yep suffering yeah
different emotions imagine imagine a a punishment
where it's like every time you raise a family
they're brutally murdered you do that over and
over and over again for thousands of times for
somebody like killed someone's family like you
absolutely let them out nuts with the stuff but
that's i guess part of the problem is you're
talking about don't let them out well that but
this is my i guess my concern is we're talking
about more of like an endless limbo like a passive
mental prison like what was used in those in
that movie that's where we'd end up going. Cause
I don't, I don't think of a scenario where nobody's
going to mess with the program, especially with
the way AI is going, not for nothing, but anything
could be hackable. Yeah. Coming up soon, especially
once quantum computing comes out. I mean, Jesus
Christ, you're going to have people that are
going to get their neural links low jacked and
they're going to be sent to the abyss anyway.
Yeah. So that's the other side. Maybe there are
some people who aren't deemed worthy of rehab
and they're just deemed to suffer permanent imprisonment.
life imprisonment would take on a whole new role.
All I know is if somebody like that was to accidentally
get released or let out, because that does happen.
People get released all the time. That shouldn't
be. Imagine somebody going through something
like that, and all of a sudden, for whatever
reason, whatever's in control decides, eh, let
them go. They don't get nothing rehab. They don't
get medication. They don't get nothing. All they
know is for a couple hundred years, like you
said, they had a family. They're all murdered
right in front of them in the most gruesome way,
fashionably. Over and over and over. Over and
over and over again. What that would do to the
human psyche, I couldn't imagine what kind of
monster would come walking out of the building
that day. Let me tell you, there is not an art
school in Austria that could do anything to prevent
that. My other point with this, which is what
if you get two birds with one stone? What if
you get the punishment of someone and. And this
is going to sound weird, but the usage of their
body, for example, things like manual labor for
tasks that you don't want to do or you can't
pay people to do. Would it be the weird part
that happens in prisons to where. your brain
is hooked up to the brain friolator 9000, where
you witness all the horrors of the human imagination
for the next 90 ,000 years, while your body is
like, I lift brick and put it down, because that
is my job. I choose to be a robot. Because it's
already there. It's already a useful tool. So
I wonder if that is something that would happen
to where the prison system would end up reforming
to be like... almost like a dpw like department
of public works that's like all right all the
prisoners today are building a monument or they're
building a new highway and they're just like
mindless fucking drones you know beep bop lift
thing down until like i said somebody for whatever
reason accidentally gets released without any
kind of reform for it and now they're just some
kind of crazy monster that's loose in the public
yeah what if you're gonna have to get put down
they're never released Or they do that for 10
years. They drop them in a country that we're
at war with. So it's like, good luck dealing
with this bastard. Oh, God. We just fucking hot
drop them. See ya. Jesus. Use his body for the
last 50 years. It's falling apart. Good luck
dealing with this psycho. Oh, yeah. And he seems
to think that all humans are tasty. Oh, God.
Sorry, I know I keep bringing us off the rails
with that. No, no, that's fine. Off the rails
is great. I just like to drive the point home
on this one, like being a very dead horse that
it does not go where you think it goes. Yeah.
This is not going to end well unless you keep
some serious, serious guards in place, which
we know very well from human history. That never
happens. That's the only way something like this
could not go bad. Yeah. This is one of those,
like Gibb said, it's Pandora's box. And once
you open that box, good luck putting this back
in that box. The lid's not getting open. It's
getting torn off and destroyed. Right. Yeah.
Yeah, like you said, if you put the thought into
somebody's head that everybody is a well -marbled
human and they love steak. Yes, I love that.
That's great. Here comes the other part I was
thinking of is how do you know you're not in
one of those? That then becomes the ultimate
mindfuck of what's this technology becomes available?
How do you know you weren't snatched in the middle
of the night and put another, you're not in the
system? Yep. How do you know? There is no way
of knowing because in a system like that, unfortunately,
if you're using your own memory, it's not like
you're in a matrix or something you're uploaded
to where the laws are different. No, it is entirely
whatever is programmed. So congratulations. You're
in your own brain. There is no way of figuring
that one out. Well, not to mention the fact that
you're then going to have people that are already
mentally sensitive anyways. They're not all there.
They're going to see this going on and go, how
do I not know that I'm not in this? And then
lose their freaking minds and start going on
a shooting spree. Or they start kidnapping people,
trying to get whoever they think is in charge
of the system to release them back into the real
world. You know, let me do what the polar opposite
of everybody wants me to do, because clearly
that's what the system wants me to do. Yeah.
If people can go crazy thinking that aliens want
to stick things up their butts. Sounds like the
1980s. And imagine something like that being
made public. I think that's maybe the differences.
I think if this technology exists, it will never
be made public. Because the CIA has too much
to lose. Because if this technology was public,
the first person and the first people and the
last people to know about it would be the CIA.
Because they would not let anybody know. Because
if you even think you knew about it. All of a
sudden, you would wake up the next day and like,
wow, I won a million dollars, my family loves
me, and everything's great, and kumbaya. Oh,
shit, they got me. Yep, yep. You're in it. You're
done. Wait, if that's the way it is, like, you
know, on the island where, you know, you win
the lottery, you go to the island, but in fact,
they're harvesting organs. You find out tomorrow
you won a million bucks, it's because the CIA
has tapped you in. Yep. That's how we know. Those
are the people that are getting snatched up by
the CIA. Wouldn't that have been funny this entire
time why California keeps having lottery winners?
That's because they keep fighting fucking psychopaths
to adopt them from the CIA. Just be like, ah,
you think you won, fucker? You won the prize.
Yeah, I'm here to collect my money. Yoink. Yeeted
to the Harvest Center. Yep. So to everyone listening,
we would like to hear from you on this. If this
technology existed, would you cognify a loved
one who committed a crime? Or if they needed
to get through some trauma? Or do you think that
it's worse than jail? Let us know in comments
or some other method. Oh, God. Red flag laws
and they put you on that. Oh. Man, dating would
take on a whole different fucking ballgame. But
I guess the difference with that program is you
can't connect to another person's brain. So it
would all be within yours. Yet. Because you bring
that up. Just recently, they were able to transfer
data between two people sleeping in different
rooms. Oh, for fuck's sakes. Yes. Yeah. I don't
want to share my nightmares with anybody because
they're fucking weird. Oh, I want to share my
nightmares. They're fun. No, I don't want you
to share your nightmares. I don't want to know.
Oh, my God. Why is everything phallic? I don't
get it. I'm just going to be like, well, I know
I'm in Pip's dreams. Oh, my God. This totally
makes sense. So this brings us to the actual
final topic, and we've already been kind of talking
a bit about it. The darker side misuse and ethical
minefields of this technology. Humans, as we
all know, have a way of trying to turn any shiny
new technology into a weapon. And this is absolutely
one that would not be an exception to that rule.
It all started with fire. Yeah, absolutely. Fire
and pointy sticks and rocks even. We've talked
about all the different movies that we've seen,
TV shows and whatnot. So this just kind of opens
up all different kinds of vectors for abuse of
the technology. You've got consent and coercion.
The prison choice may not be voluntary. People
could be put into these situations under duress.
1984. Yes, exactly. You have wrongful convictions.
If innocent people are implanted with traumatic
guilt, there's permanent damage there. How would
they even know to go after recourse? It wouldn't.
The correct memories could be overwritten. You've
got private abuse. Abuse of partners and employers
could implant loyalty or false memories into
people and literally just make legal slaves.
I mean, why not? You've got technology. On the
mass scale, governments using this for dissidents
or re -education camps or population control.
Remember, kids, we're from the government. We're
here to help. Right? That's everyone's favorite
thing to say. Identity risks. Rewriting memories.
Changing who you are. PTSD from overload. AI
biases making it unfair. There's all kinds of
different stuff that this could literally just...
The straw that breaks the camel's back. The scenarios
are endless. It's a slippery slope, and it starts
with criminals and therapy and rehab. Then it
goes into enhancement, like you were saying.
And not before long, it becomes mandatory fixes
or tweaks. And society is going to be, oh, you
can't go here without this augment or this upgrade.
You have to have your upgrade paperwork before
you can get into here. And we just went through
some of that not too long ago. With vaccine passports.
Oh, yeah. So how long is it going to be before
you have your Cognify passports? Your memory
therapy passports. And then you've got the neuroethics
angle. Privacy of thought. Like you said, 1984.
Privacy of thought is literally the last vestige
of human privacy that can remain in today's age.
It's the authenticity of self. Inequality would
be the last kind of bastion of everything because
the rich would be able to buy better outcomes
in life. They already can, but when it comes
to the memory field, they win, period. It would
be the last thing that could keep people moving
up the economic ladder that could be taken away
would be information or the ability to learn.
access to information yeah i believe infinite
information well that's the thing at any one
time but that also would mean is that most information
would be controlled via that method so it basically
may be like bring back like a feudal caste system
kind of thing to where once you're part of the
you know the informed class you're allowed to
take on any information you want but if you're
just part of the working class you don't need
to know that yep you don't need to learn that
So do you guys see this as an end to mass incarceration
or is it more of a lead into a dystopian future?
I'll be honest. I feel like rich people would
use it before prisons do because prisons don't
make as much money. So here's the way I look
at it. Is there going to be rich people that
say, I want to be able to live forever? I want
to be able to know everything so I can grow my
influence, my empire, my whatever, my legacy.
The minute this becomes possible, if the CIA
doesn't cover it up, somebody like Jeff Bezos
or Elon Musk or one of those types, I think Elon
would be the first person in line for this. Yep.
They would end up committing to that 100%. Because
here's the way I look at it, too. If you can,
like you were talking about, once you can alter,
manipulate, or copy memories, you are basically
immortal at that point. So regardless of how
you use it. You are basically de facto the most,
maybe not the most intelligent, but you'd be
the most knowledgeable human in existence. Because
anything you want is at your fingertips at any
point in time. You can experience anything you
want, do anything you want. As long as the information
you're feeding to your brain is accurate, you
own everything. That's it. You can own anything.
You can learn any skill, any patented ideas,
anything. So how could you not dominate every
sector of any economy, any industrial sector,
anything? Just don't be able to hire teams of
thousands of people to do stuff. If you could
just do it all yourself. Your only competition
at that point would be the other people that
are doing it. Yeah. That's why the first person
that makes it owns it and they own the IP and
then they win. Yeah. It's really the ultimate
arms race for something like that. If you're
the first company, the first person that can
do it, congratulations. You now own thought.
Thought is yours. You win. You've won the game.
The game of humanity, the simulation that we're
in, you've won. Congratulations. That's it. Yeah.
So some last kind of thoughts on this. It is
real science. All the pieces do technically exist.
Or are coming into existence. But the Cognify
level tech itself is still, thankfully, contained
in the lab. I think it's a good debate topic
for where we draw the lines as far as mental
ethics and mental AI interface future. The big
questions that I have for the listeners mostly.
Is forced empathy better than punishment? Is
something like Cognify better or worse than the
current methods of rehabilitation? Would you
guys listening trust governments or private companies
with your memories? Would either of you guys,
because I know I sure as fuck wouldn't. No. Could
you imagine going to work instead of an NDA?
You're agreeing to them erase your memories during
the day after you leave work so you don't remember
what it was you were even fucking working on?
Paycheck. That movie Paycheck. That's what they
did. Yeah. They erased his memories after he
worked on the project. Yeah. So then if you guys
have any thoughts or ways that this tech... Go
ahead, Gibbs. I was going to say the only thing
you've taught me as soon as Cognify has an IPO,
I have to invest. Oh, I think we all do. Yeah,
that's true too. That's going to be big. If everything
you're saying is true and this all happens, it'll
be the biggest company in human history by like
a country mile. Yeah. This is not financial advice.
Do not. We are not financial experts. No, not
at all. That being said, I know where my money
is going. Yeah. So if you guys. Have any thoughts
on this? Please send them our way. Questions
on potential uses or thoughts on uses. Ways to
be used for addiction treatment. Skill uploads
like in the Matrix. I know we've talked a lot
about that. For me, yes, please. Give me all
the skills. Let me learn how to do all the things.
So here's another question I guess I was having.
I know this is like the end of the episode, but
like a last minute question. sure would we then
have to overcome the capacity for memory like
a brain limitation so that was a limiting factor
where it's like hey you can learn all these things
but you can hold roughly this amount of memories
we don't know the exact things every brain's
different so you're gonna have a chance of losing
something to your buddy like So, cause I was
going to say there is a limit because they always
say like everybody has like a PhD and stuff.
They're not all quite there because they've learned
so much information that they start losing things.
Yeah. I, I, we, we don't have a defined upper
limit for human memory. But if this technology
becomes accessible, that upper limit may become
irrelevant. Because if the memories are able
to be stored and swapped at will, especially,
think about the Neuralink. If you've got the
Neuralink and you can just access memories via
the cloud or something like that, you may not
be able to recall it instantly, but you could
get it near instantly. Either via web search,
AI interface, or just actual recalled memory
via your cloud bank. So does that mean you're
basically uploading live telemetry from all of
your senses and everything onto the human cloud?
Possibly. Potentially, yeah. That would be terrifying
having recorded live telemetry of my body because
Jesus Christ, the amount of farts over my lifetime.
Jesus Christ. Hey, talk about your end of life
stat report. God damn it. Now I'm committed.
That's my problem. God. Oh, you got me on that
one. You know, you're welcome. Man, I'm going
to force it in early. Just so in my dying breath,
I can say. Save my sense. One of my stats. How
many times I shit myself? Ah, less than you.
I win. I win. Oh, shit. So. Neurotech could transform
our lives or erase free will. Let us know what
your take is. And with that, ladies, gentlemen,
and all other sentient beings, we have come to
the end of the episode. So right. This thing
on Pluto. Possibly. Possibly. That's terrifying.
I know they're seeing it on Uranus. It was good.
Oh, God help us. If that was first contact, it
was this goddamn podcast. Oh, Christ. Oh, Jesus.
I see Independence Day in our future if that's
the case. Yep. Got to eradicate the human race
now. So as far as the rest of the show goes,
as always, thank you guys for listening. We hope
you enjoyed the show. We'll be back next week
with hopefully another good show, good topic.
We'll have some more information. We'll have
some more information on all the other stuff
we got cooking off on the back burners. Until
then, we'll see you all next time.