Hello and welcome to the Spotlight Vancouver Washington podcast.
I'm your host Doug Varinas, license realtor in Washington and Oregon, helping you reach
your real estate goals and dreams.
And today on the podcast, it's going to be Portland versus Vancouver.
We're going to strip away the hype and the clickbait and look at some, an overview of
the stats from schools to crime to taxes to everything you're going to want to know to
make a decision if you're sitting on the fence.
I definitely have a bent here because I live in Vancouver, but I'm going to try to be as
even-handed as possible to make this as valuable as possible for you.
So stick around.
Also, stick around until the end.
I'm going to tell you how you can get a 1% temporary buy down paid for by my preferred
lender.
I'll tell you how to do that at the end.
So stick around.
But we've got quite the show today because as I mentioned in a previous episode, I would
was thinking of doing some clickbait worthy anti-Portland material when Portland was going
through a rough time during the pandemic.
And we all kind of know what happened.
If you don't, it was an ugly scene there.
Just with the open air drug markets, the trash can fires, the riots for lack of a better
word protests, depending on who you ask.
Portland was going through a tough time.
I think since the pandemic has ended, things have gotten a little bit better.
And so I think now is a good time to have an even keeled discussion about Portland versus
Vancouver and who is better suited for which one.
So that you might be listening to this, maybe you're living in Portland, maybe you're in
Vancouver, you're thinking of making the move across the river and you're wondering,
what's the pros and cons?
What does it look like?
I'm going to try to give an overview of that and break it down so again, you can get all
the information you need to make a decision.
So I appreciate you listening.
Thanks for the likes, the subscribes, the comments, the shares.
They all go a long way into spreading the word about the podcast and I'm super grateful
for it.
I'd like to just give you a little overview on my journey to Vancouver because I think
this year or next year will be, I have lived in each city an equal amount of time.
I lived in Portland for 11 years and I think it's going to be next year will be I would
live in Vancouver for 11 years.
So I do have experience living in both cities for quite a while and my journey to Vancouver
began in 2015 when my girlfriend, now wife, and I were looking at homes and we had lived
in Portland kind of in the city center, urban center.
We lived in the Irvington neighborhood together and we both had graduated from grad school
and we're moving on in our careers and we were looking for a home together and we wanted
to stay in Portland and during the 2015, the market was pretty hot.
It was actually really hot.
Multiple offers over, over asking, crazy over asking and so with our realtor that we were
using, we were finding ourselves being pushed further and further east.
Pass 82nd Avenue, which if you live in Portland and especially at that time, Pass 82nd Avenue
is like Mars.
It was another planet that wasn't really Portland and we were still getting out bid
on homes that we were kind of not super excited about.
And so I started looking in Vancouver because I had gotten a job working at the Vancouver
school district as an occupational therapist and I was interested in finding out more
about Vancouver and the tax because there's no income tax here.
That was definitely appealing to me.
I had found myself like I wasn't just, I wasn't going out as much.
I don't know.
I'm settling down.
I had a fiance.
We were looking to kind of move on and I just found myself open to the possibility of living
in Vancouver because I was going to be working there and it was more affordable.
And I thought I could get a similar neighborhood because I was looking for that kind of neighborhood
feel older homes and similar to what I'd find in Portland, similar to what I wanted in Portland.
And so I had to do a public relations campaign with my wife about it and it involved riding
our bikes up to Vancouver and we toured kind of the uptown neighborhood, how we were basically
kind of downtown.
And that's where most of the shops were and most of the, and the kind of neighborhoods
that we wanted in Portland.
Oh my goodness.
Are you kidding me?
I am.
Okay.
I thought I was offline there.
So we had, yeah, I had to take her and do a publicity tour.
I was all in at that point because we were seeing homes that were significantly less
expensive in areas that felt like Portland basically to us at the time.
And so with a lot of cajoling and some convincing, I got my fiance, my girlfriend, now wife again
to agree to move to Vancouver and we did.
And we haven't regretted it since and we've done very well, but that was kind of our journey.
Like we were sort of reluctant to Vancouver folks.
And you know, now it's a little bit of a different scene.
I think people are seeking out Vancouver and wanting to come to Vancouver for some of the
reasons that I'll mention.
But again, this podcast is about Portland versus Vancouver.
So let's talk about some of the real estate related statistics.
The median sales price in Vancouver currently $562,000.
The surprising thing is Portland's medium sale price is 538.
And you know, five, 10 years ago, you'd never see this.
You know, it would be impossible that the median sale price in Vancouver would be higher
than Portland, but here we are.
It is.
It's a market in Portland, 84 days, 63 days in Vancouver.
So you know, kind of similar market statistics and it's yeah, very similar real estate market,
very similar five year appreciation.
What I think you're seeing is you're the market is appreciating more in Vancouver because
more people are moving here and seeing the advantages.
Portland's still a desirable place to live and we're going to get into that.
But the housing markets have performed similarly over the last few years.
When we talk about sort of the overview of Portland, you got about in the metro area
about 650,000 people there compared to about 200,000 in Vancouver.
If you include Hillsborough, Beaverton, Gresham, it gets into almost 2 million.
And then in Clark County, you might get up to like maybe 300,000.
So Portland obviously a lot bigger.
The economy is bigger.
There's just there's more going on in Portland as far as restaurants, as far as museums,
as far as performance venues, what we call I guess culture.
Or in Portland, there's just more going on there because it's a bigger metro area.
The economy in Portland, the biggest employers in Portland are the hospital system, Providence
Health System, and then it's Intel and then Oregon Health and Science University, OHSU
and then Nike and then Legacy.
Well OHSU recently bought out Legacy, so that's going to make them one of the biggest employers
in the Portland area.
So basically it's Nike, Intel and Hospitals are the biggest employers in Portland, where
in Vancouver, the biggest employers are also hospitals and schools.
So the Evergreen School District, the Vancouver School District, and then you have Peace Health
and then to a lesser degree, Legacy are the biggest employers here.
So similar economies, but obviously the Intel and Nike kind of are super big players in
Portland metro area and one of the largest employers.
When it comes to taxes and property taxes, I was surprised to learn that the property
taxes are assessed a little bit lower in Portland.
I think it's 1.07% compared to 1.25%.
Obviously there's a bunch of levies and other taxes that I feel kind of level the playing
field.
So when it comes to property taxes, I'm going to call this a wash because I think they're
both fairly expensive as a West Coast city goes.
So I'm going to give that a pretty even keel there.
So as you probably know, or maybe you don't, but there's no sales tax in Portland, in
Oregon.
There isn't income tax.
So if you live in Multnomah County, that number is going to be about 9.9%.
So almost 10% income tax.
In Vancouver, there is a sales tax of about 8.6% and no state income tax.
So that does make a big difference because if it's up to me, I'm going to take no income
tax because I don't have a choice on whether that gets taxed or not.
I have a choice on whether I buy things or not and where I buy them, but I don't have
a choice on them taking out income tax.
This can save a lot of money.
I remember when I first moved over the bridge, it was saving me $500 a month.
And so I'm definitely going to give the advantage to Vancouver in that regard.
From tax purposes, especially income tax, it's pretty cool to not have to pay state income
tax.
Now people who live in Vancouver, you can take advantage of the no sales tax and the
no income tax.
So there's plenty of people that do their shopping at like the airport way Costco and
they don't pay any sales tax there when they do their shopping and then they take all this
stuff across the river and then they don't have to pay income tax in the state of Washington.
And so they kind of just avoid all taxes.
I don't do that.
I'll do that for bigger purchases.
Note to self, don't try to do that with a car because they'll, they just get you on
registration.
So when you go register, you have to pay taxes.
So you can't go buy a car and a new car, at least from a dealer in Oregon and then bring
it to Washington and think you're not going to pay sales tax because you do.
But for other big purchases like appliances or, you know, if I have to buy home improvement
products, I will go to Janssen Beach.
So the whole reason Janssen Beach exists basically is to provide some tax benefits to people
coming from Vancouver to be honest.
And so for bigger purchases, I do make that trip to save myself some money and it's pretty
significant.
So for taxes, I'm going to give the nod to Vancouver.
And like I said before, obviously I have some skin in the game, I live in Vancouver, but
I don't see why if you worked in Vancouver, you wouldn't want to live in Vancouver.
So as far as that goes, like if you're commuting into Portland, you still have to pay the Oregon
income tax based on where you work.
But if you're able to work remotely, like, you know, if you work for Nike, you have a
friend who works for Nike and he does most of his work remotely and he can take advantage
of the no state income tax.
But as soon as you go into work, you will be taxed at that, you know, Oregon state income
tax rate.
Again, consult your CPA about that.
But you do calculate the number of days you're there versus home.
But again, not financial advice.
Check with your CPA.
But that's a big advantage not to have that income tax.
Stepping into the realm of crime.
This is where we get into sort of that pandemic recent history where crime in these big cities
kind of all across the US increased dramatically.
And we saw that pretty dramatically in Portland.
And what happened was they decriminalize all drug use and possession with the intent being
I think, you know, good intentions like let's not put minor offenders in prison for minor
drug offenses.
But unfortunately what ended up happening was it just became an open air drug market.
Like it was and it was pretty it was pretty bad.
Obviously it wasn't uniform throughout the entire city of Portland, but it was unsightly
and that combined with the growing number of people experiencing homelessness.
There were huge camps and Portland's always kind of had a liberal camping, camping policy.
And so that got exploited to the point where it was pretty bad and it was a shame really
to see it areas like, you know, Delta Park and the 205 corridor and Johnson Creek area
just became huge homeless camps and then just a lot of pain and misery.
Basically, I remember like driving to Portland at night and just seeing all the trash can
fires and it was it was a shame to see.
And then you had the George Floyd protests and that kind of just destroyed downtown to
the point where the businesses haven't come back.
Like I went there not too long ago and there was still a lot of abandoned businesses.
And unfortunately it just seems like it's been tough for the city to deal with these
problems in a way that's been effective and they're not the only city to have these problems.
But they just have not been able to get a handle on the drug use and the issue of homelessness
to the point where it became unlivable.
And I think it's gotten better.
I haven't seen as much because what they did was they re-criminalize drug use and that
went a long way into I mean, I don't think it solved the problem, but it definitely put
it more underground and lessen people's faces and we can all debate on whether that's effective
or not.
But at the end of the day, like it did increase livability.
And so I think it's gotten a little bit better, but there's just more crime in Portland.
So poking around on an interactive crime site, I will post these in the show notes.
I have a Lexis Nexus one that does like a lot interactive.
You can check on where crimes have occurred and what they are.
And then I have some stats for Portland crime.
I think homicides in Portland are currently at 80, which is I think it's lower than it
was.
It was in triple digits during the pandemic where it's like, you know, there was 12 homicides
last year in Vancouver.
There's a lot of property crimes and assaults.
I think there's like 50,000 property crimes in Portland last year and, you know, somewhere
around 6,000 in Vancouver.
So again, we're talking, you know, this is a scale thing too because the population in
Portland is about three times that of Vancouver.
There is less crime overall in Vancouver and it is, you know, crime is a tricky thing
because it depends, you know, it's not all located in the same place.
It doesn't happen at the same time.
You can always be in the wrong place in the wrong time and experience a crime.
You know, when I lived in Portland, I never, you know, I had a bicycle stolen one time.
You know, I wasn't a victim of crime.
I didn't experience that.
And so I felt very safe in Portland and maybe that's changed.
I haven't lived there in a while.
Same thing in Vancouver.
I've never felt threatened, never felt in danger.
So you know, crime is one of those statistics where, you know, really you can look at the
numbers but it's going to depend on your experience with crime and where you're at.
And again, there's a lot of factors.
But for me, overall, more crime in Portland, more property crime, more homicides, more
gang activity, not that we don't have these things in Vancouver.
There's just less overall.
And so I'm going to give the nod to Vancouver on this too.
Again, I was reading an article that actually crime went down by about 7% year over year.
The perception of that is not that though.
I think if you talk to people in Vancouver, they'll tell you that crime is increasing
especially property crime.
That's big here.
Break-ins, some robberies or burglaries.
But I think car break-ins are big as they are in Portland.
So for this, I'm going to give the edge to Vancouver.
Let's move on.
Schools.
So, man, schools is another tricky one because I always tell people like you can go on these
rating sites, check the school ratings and they're not accurate because the turnover
from year to year can make a huge difference.
Like that they get a new principal, there's new teachers, somebody leaves.
You really need to do your work on the ground to find out what's going on at that school.
So these are just some overarching stats.
I mean, then basically, graduation rates and dropout rates, test scores.
For Portland Public, the graduation rate is 81%.
So that's kind of abysmal.
That's crazy.
That's almost 20% of the school population not graduating, which is nuts to me, with
a dropout rate of 6%.
So not great.
For Vancouver and Evergreen school districts, the graduation rate is 86%, 87% with a 4% to
5% dropout rate.
So not super great either.
A few years ago, I would have given the edge to Vancouver no problem because a lot of
the schools in Portland were falling down.
They had structural issues, big time, almost like condemned status.
Through a number of levies, they have rebuilt schools and sort of done the repair there.
As they have in Vancouver, the Vancouver also has had several levies that have been
approved and new schools have been built and repairs have been made.
So I don't think there's a huge difference there.
The test scores for math and reading are below standard for all the school districts.
In public, Evergreen, Vancouver, not great, not meeting benchmark, they're working on
it.
As far as the schools go, it's a tough one.
I mean, I'm tempted to just give it a wash and say they're both kind of even.
I guess that would be my official answer.
But really, I just think with the big city influence, like I'm very protective of my
kids and so I want them to have less exposure to big city issues, whatever they are that
kids are exposed to.
And I think that in Vancouver, you get less exposure to that in general, although, again,
depends on the school, depends on the peers.
It's hard to say.
So I'm personally going to give the edge to the Vancouver and Evergreen school districts,
but again, statistically, and actually statistically, the edge does go to Vancouver and Evergreen,
just with those dropout rates and graduation rates, but it's close.
And again, it's a very personal thing.
Again, best to get some information on the ground to find out the quality of that school
that you're thinking of sending your kids to.
The political vibe, I think something I have to mention.
So for somebody thinking of moving to Vancouver versus Portland, obviously Portland is a liberal
city.
I mean, that's kind of what it's known for.
It attracts people from all over the country looking to tap into the ethos of like being
artistic, being free, the liberal ethos.
So I mean, it's a liberal city.
It's a blue city where I think Vancouver is, I'm going to say it's more centrist.
So I don't think it's super conservative.
It's a pretty live and let live city in my experience.
It definitely leans more center right.
And so if that's an issue for you or if that's something, you know, if you see like a Trump
flag in somebody's yard and that's really triggering for you, like maybe Vancouver isn't for you.
Again, depends on the neighborhood.
So like how Carter Park, Lincoln sort of west of the five tends to be more liberal, like
closer to the river seems to be a little bit more liberal in general.
For Portland, I feel like across the board, like you're, you're not seeing a lot of MAGA
hats in Portland.
And whether that's a pro or a con to you, it's just something that is.
I do think we've seen a general failure of some of these blue cities to address issues
like crime, like shoplifting, it's legal, it's fine.
Same thing with the drug use and homelessness, we've seen cities like San Francisco kind
of falling apart in Chicago.
And I mean, you, I think you can put Portland in that category.
So I don't know where the city of Portland is going.
It just tends to be kind of a race to the, to the extreme in my estimation.
And so I don't know where it's where it's heading, but it's definitely it's a, it's
a blue city and if you're not comfortable with that, Portland, probably not for you.
Vancouver, I think you can find a place people aren't going to bug you.
I'm just going to give an example of an election, a result that we had recently like a state
Congress, I believe it was Joe Kent, who was a pretty conservative candidate, like pretty
right wing candidate versus Marie Gleuz and Camp Perez, a Democrat, but very centrist,
like very, I don't know, to me seems very common sense candidate.
And she won in like a landslide.
I don't think it was that close.
And so I think that's a good example of Vancouver in general.
Like we're just sort of in the middle and we appreciate moderation and that's been my
experience.
So if you, if you want to roast me about any of this stuff, please let me know in the comments
about your experience.
I'm trying to keep this as even handed as possible.
And you know, if you disagree, yeah, feel free to, to let me know about it.
I would appreciate it and let me know what your experience has been living in Vancouver
or Portland, but it is a, it is a factor is, is the political leaning.
So who is, so, so that kind of brings us to which city is right for who, like who might
be a good fit for Portland and who might be a good fit for Vancouver in general.
So for me, Portland, you know, you want the people are going to enjoy living in Portland
are, you know, I feel like they, they have, they want to tap into like the bigger economy.
Some of the people that work at Nike or Intel or other creatives are going to, in general,
I think they want to be, people want to be in that scene.
Like they want to be near the restaurants and the bars and the music venues and things
are happening are going to want to be in Portland.
Now some of those people that work at Nike and Intel and stuff, they'll move to Hillsboro
or Beaverton to get out of Multnomah County.
So that's another story, but in general, those people are going to want to be in the metro
area.
So anyone who wants to tap into a scene and have a lot of that access to that stuff.
Now if you live in Vancouver, you can still drive over the bridge and take advantage of
any of that.
It's a little more inconvenient, I guess, but really it's a 10 minute drive south, depending
on where you live.
Yeah.
Right, and I think people who are more left leaning politically or maybe identify with
the community that is stronger in Portland than it would be in Vancouver.
And those people are probably going to want to, are more likely to be in Portland or be
attracted to what Portland has to offer.
So in general, it's going to be, you know, maybe dual income, no kids, dinks who want
to tap into, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but I'm just trying to create a profile
of somebody who might be more attracted to Portland.
So you know, double income, no kids want to take advantage of all the amenities of Portland
or liberal leaning, you know, ROK paying the extra taxes for it.
They don't really mind that they're going to want to be there.
I think Vancouver is, you know, it's kind of a, it's more of a suburban feel.
There's, you know, there's some good restaurants.
There's a lot, you know, there's things to do here.
I never run into a shortage of events or things to do, but there's just not much as there
is in Portland.
So I think if you're looking for like a more suburban, maybe a little slower lifestyle,
like having all those amenities right near you isn't as important.
You might be more attracted to Vancouver.
I do think the school issue for me as a parent, I am, I'm going to want a little bit better
school district.
And so I think you might want to check out Vancouver.
If, if you're thinking of having kids or you have kids, I think, I think the school
districts in this area are just a little bit better, a little bit less exposure to big
city issues.
I think the tax advantages of Vancouver are huge.
So if you can work remotely or if you work in Vancouver, I don't see a reason why you
wouldn't want to live in this area.
Like it's a pretty big financial advantage to come to Vancouver and not have to pay income
tax, state income tax.
And again, if you want to go over the bridge, do all your shopping there, come back over,
you know, you can, you can live the tax free life.
I, for convenience sake, I tend to just do most of my shopping, like grocery shopping
and stuff.
I just, I stick around here in Vancouver and I just pay that sales tax, that 8.6% sales
tax, which is no small thing.
Like, like I said, I will go to Janssen Beach or some, somewhere in Oregon to buy like an
appliance or a big ticket item.
So those are the, you know, people I think are going to gravitate towards each city.
Again, really depends on your personal situation.
Like it's a very personal decision.
So this is just designed to give you an overview.
And I hope I've been able to do that today.
Both cities offer pros and cons.
Both cities have their challenges like any metropolitan area does.
But I hope this kind of overview has given you a little bit better idea of who the situation
of each city and, you know, what they both offer.
So thank you very much for listening.
As I promised in the intro, I want to throw out an offer of a 1% lender paid buy down
on a mortgage.
So I'm going to have a link to this in the show notes as well.
But my friend and colleague, Trevor Bonnet at Guild Mortgage is offering this 1% lender
pay down on a mortgage.
You have to go to guildmortgage.com backslash Trevor Bonnet, double N, double T. Again,
I'll have it linked and you can start a discussion with him about how to get this 1% buy down
on your mortgage rate.
So thank you everybody for listening.
Take care out there.
See you next time.