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All right, all you Liberty lovers and welcome to Fiendish and Friends.

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It's episode 10, despite what's written on Twitter,

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with Noel Lovisa, founder and CEO of CodeValley,

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who joins us to talk about his work on emerging coding.

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This is a decentralized software development paradigm,

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employing a type of software component that cannot be copied or reused with

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the objective of achieving both workable developer specialization,

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and a practical software components market that was taken directly off of Wikipedia.

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Learn what actually that all means today.

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As Douglas McElroy observed way back in 1968 NATO software engineering conference,

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the software industry is not industrialized.

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Emergent Coding aims to change this while using

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Bitcoin Cash as the backbone of their payments architecture to enable it.

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Please welcome, onto the mic Noel.

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Welcome to Finnish and Friends.

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It's great to have you with us.

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It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the introduction.

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Thank you. I think the best way is to start right at the very top,

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because I'm guessing a lot of people here won't know what

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Emergent Coding is or anything that I've said so far.

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In your own words,

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how do you pitch Emergent Coding to those who know nothing about it,

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and what solution is it offering the world?

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All right, that's getting right to it.

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Emergent Coding is actually the technology that

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underpins a practical software components market.

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A practical software components market is quite an old idea.

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As you mentioned, McElroy proposed it as a solution to

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the industrialization of software back in the late 60s.

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The components market, a practical components market is

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a formidable problem to solve and it does require

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components that can't be copied or reused,

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so that you're essentially forming a,

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allowing a developer to specialize in this space, if you will,

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and protect their intellectual property so that they can expect repeat business.

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At present, if I sell you a routine or an object or a bean or a module,

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I'm essentially giving away my intellectual property,

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and I must rely on just goodwill on your part or some license agreement or the like,

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in order for you to not reuse that component.

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Emergent Coding solves that problem where now we can

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deliver a component into your project with full rights.

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You've got the rights to reuse it as many times as you like.

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You won't be able to economically,

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so that's how the protection mechanism, it works.

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That ability to specialize means that you can look

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forward to repeat business, you can implement improvements

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to your component that you're selling, and we can look forward to,

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as a community, your component being around into the future.

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And that ability to protect your intellectual property,

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to protect your prospects of repeat business is what underpins

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this practical software components market.

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So now your component lives in a classification

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and competes with other components from other suppliers in the same classification.

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And as you can expect, if your component is faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper,

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it will gain market share at the expense of the other components in that classification.

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So at a fundamental level, we're correcting the incentive structure for software

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that are basically being bypassed because of our inability to specialize, if you will.

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And so by correcting that specialization, we make possible a practical software components market.

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And if you can imagine that level of competition that's occurring in each classification,

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you're basically setting the scene for a fast path for improvement across the board,

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just like in any other industry where if I can make a better widget,

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I can increase my market share at the expense of other suppliers.

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So a practical software components market, to answer the second part of your question,

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is really aiming at producing all software for all platforms.

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It is a general purpose tech for it's a new way of producing software.

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Like I said, it just corrects those incentive structures.

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It allows software developers for the first time to specialize.

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And that specialization means that we are building software in a decentralized manner

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instead of one developer building many thousands of features into a project,

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a developer now builds a single feature into many thousands of projects.

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So that specialization has a lot of advantages and a lot of challenges,

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like one of the most formidable challenges in addition to just protecting the intellectual property

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is how do you pay thousands and thousands of contributors spread across 150 countries

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around the world for each project.

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So this decentralized software tech, it was an absolute gift when Satoshi came up with cryptocurrency,

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with the original Bitcoin, which was a peer to peer electronic cash system.

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Such a decentralized payment system is absolutely, you know,

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you can't get a better match for a decentralized software development system.

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I often sort of say that the heavens opened and the monetization scheme descended.

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That was just exactly what you could ever have hoped for

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in order to implement a practical software components market that can tie together,

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you know, 30 million software developers around the world into a single cohesive unit.

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Yeah, that is a topic that I definitely want to explore a bit more with you, you know,

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just a disclaimer there. So I know Noel, we've known each other for several years.

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We've actually spent some time with each other at the BCH 2022 conference in St. Kitts and Nabas.

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So aware of his passion for Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash and the importance of this to his project.

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And I really would like to delve into that a bit further.

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So just going back to what you said, I think it was really, really nicely said.

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And I think it explains very well what emerging coding is doing, what it offers, you know,

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to sort of prescribe it to an analogy.

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So if you look at a car manufacturer, whether it's a Tesla, whether it's BMW, whether it's Volvo,

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the car manufacturer, like in any industrialized process, they're not making everything.

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They're not making the components and not making the nuts and the bolts.

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And they're not making the the tires.

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They have thousands of different companies and enterprises that are working in a free market system.

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And they're all specialized doing what they do really well, making that nut, making that screw,

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making that gear. And they then sell that to the those components to the car manufacturing company.

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And they put that all together.

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And and this specialization is what allows incredibly refined and efficient and cheap parts

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because the incentives are correct.

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And in the end, you still end up with incredibly complicated machines.

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You know, cars today are, you know, have more lines of code than most of us can write.

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Very, very complicated machines with lots of electronics and lots of components.

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And that's the end result. And with emerging coding, as I understand,

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it's essentially looking to bring that idea and that model of industrialization to the software market

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so that people can specialize on their on their particular tools, their agents,

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and then allow this to be sent to the construction area, the construction sites,

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where then someone else can create their car, as it were, the piece of software,

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the whatever it is that they need to be running.

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But in a way that protects the original creator of those products,

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they can't just be their work and effort isn't immediately copied and reused.

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Do you say that analogy is is that correct?

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Could you could you improve upon it?

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No, no, that that goes to the heart of it.

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The the fundamental basis for emerging coding, that the big change that that is made in Fred Brooks

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has mentioned in the that something essential has to change if we're going to fix the problems with software

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and certainly to allow specialization, something essential.

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And the essential thing that that we've changed is that we've actually reversed the integration responsibility.

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And this has massive ramifications. It is essential, absolutely essential change that we made.

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And reversing the integration responsibility.

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So traditionally, I would create a component stick in a library and you would access that library

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and integrate that component into your project with emerging coding.

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It's the it's me, the creator of the component that is integrating my component into your project.

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So it's actually reversing that integration responsibility,

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because part of the information that you require to integrate my component into your project is knowledge about my component.

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That's my intellectual property.

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And so how is it that I can sell you a component and tell you and not tell you how to use it?

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So that was like the fundamental change that had to be made.

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If we reverse the integration responsibility, instead of me giving you a component, you give me a construction site.

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And by reversing that integration, I get to protect my intellectual property.

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You still get the benefit of the component built into your project.

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And by making that reversal, I can who knows better how to integrate my component into your project than me,

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the author of this particular component.

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And so this this reversal really makes the it's a very big change, has huge ramifications.

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This construction site thing that that I'm talking about the construction site.

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When you give me the construction site and a little bit of Bitcoin cash, I can then create my component into your project.

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And that construction site allows me behind the scenes to to partition that construction site,

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to to subcontract other components from other suppliers.

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So basically making my component as an assemblage of smaller components from other suppliers, like in any other industry.

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And this allows these components to properly scale all the way up and all the way down.

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So when you scale all the way down, we basically no longer need a high level language or a compiler.

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That's just services incorporated into those smaller components.

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And at the upper level, we can have components that are very powerful, delivering quite complex features into your project.

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And essentially, this is how the industry we're seeing parts of this already.

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We call them domain specific languages and the like.

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So these high level components that scale up at the high at the high levels of abstraction are essentially like

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domain specific components that are really not so much about designing code into your project,

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but really capturing your requirements that you that you're that you want to create your application out of.

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You want this this feature, this feature, this feature.

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So you will choose the corresponding components to create those features into your project.

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Yeah, this is a really a paradigm shifting tool.

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You can see I think anyone that's listening can see its potential.

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And it really goes down to seeing this in action.

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How is it actually working? How easy is it to achieve the goals that is set out?

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So then the stance right now, you know, actually just back up a bit just to think about the scale of this,

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this effort, this undertaking, because it is it is paradigm shifting, is changing the entire paradigm of the software industry

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and flipping the sort of as you say, it's like flipping it around completely about how you actually organize that software and project creation.

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Code Valley dates back. So the company was founded in 2000, so 25 years ago, 25 years this year,

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which first of all, that's you know, that is an incredible time for a company to exist, you know,

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for before without a public product release, which I think goes to show, you know,

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you must have some very committed investors. This is something that people are very interested in.

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You've got some, you know, there's a lot of time there. So what was, you know, what was the bulk of that 25 years taken to do?

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Like what has what has taken that time, the bulk of that time to get where we're at today?

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No, that's that's that's an awesome question. And we've the way we went about solving this problem,

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like just fixing specialization doesn't give you a components market, you know.

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So one of the early one of the the first things that fall out of out of that reversal,

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that specialization is that we these components no longer have a runtime interface.

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They there is no runtime interfaces. And so the components that we created,

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we can't draw upon the the the beautiful libraries and all the work that's been that's been done to date

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because these components now essentially have a design time interface. We at design time,

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we're contracting you for your component and your runtime interface is actually part of the design.

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As you build it into my project, you know, the runtime interface is essentially seamless.

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They're seamless. The component is seamlessly integrated.

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So part of that big delay, part of that not delay, but part of that huge gestation period

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is to to major efforts. One is we we just didn't know what these components would be like,

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you know, where are the the interfaces at design time between these components?

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And those sorts of questions only come about through lots and lots of experience.

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But the real killer, you know, the real thing that took enormous amounts, sums of money and effort

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has really been our goal to to, you know, we wanted the integrity of fielding a system that was built

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with the system. So it we wouldn't have any legs to stand on if we said, all right,

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we want you to build your component server with, you know, Ruby or something. We needed you to

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we needed to build the entire infrastructure for this software components market with

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this software components market. And so we had to tease out north of five thousand components,

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build and field and test them all so that, you know, using, you know, we had the bootstrap.

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So we had to use conventional programming languages initially until we had enough

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components that we could then build components. And so this became the, you know, this is the

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the the the big time consuming effort. We wanted the integrity of having the system built with the

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system. So we perhaps could have went to market a lot sooner. But now, you know, what integrity would

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we what what how would we fare in the market if, you know, we want you to build this very sophisticated

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component server that can accept the payment and construction site can subcontract and and can,

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you know, collaborate with peers and arrive at arrive at

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when you're collaborating with peers, you know, arriving at decisions that that comply with

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everybody agreements and so forth and do all that automatically. You're talking about a very, very

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sophisticated piece of software. And so we actually have this mountain of components across four

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levels of abstraction that can build your presence in the marketplace to so that you can supply

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your components into the market. The system is completely decentralized and it's it's completely

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non custodial. So, you know, your components, the only presence in the market that your customers see

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is just in the catalog as a reference in the catalog. But as you understand, you're actually

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designing your component into everyone's project. And so there's a fair bit of infrastructure at

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your end into to support your component. And so really, it's those two factors that have really

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cost enormous amount of time to to create a the essentially the first practical software

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components market. And, you know, there are some huge advantages to that. You know, just that

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integrity is is the most important thing that we were chasing. Yeah.

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I think that's a really fair point. If you're not using your software to create the the software,

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then what integrity would you have? So this is a this is the biggest challenge that you had. And

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this is what I understand then this is what took the bulk of that time to to get to the stage where

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you're at now. But you are now in in testing. So in 2023, you released this opens for businesses

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to be to be testing on this. So we're now into the into the second year or 2025 now.

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And I'd love to love to know. So, first of all, I mean, we just said actually is it's kind of

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interesting because in my in my mind, what I was imagining that emerging coding would be very useful

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and certainly at the start for creating highly efficient code, so highly highly efficient

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binary code where memory constraints are important. But it sounds like that the scope is actually

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the scope is actually already much wider than that right from the get go. Is that correct?

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Yes, absolutely. As as I mentioned from the get go, you know, the tech is really

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it's it's really a replacement really for the current software system. You know, it's designed

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to produce all software for all platforms. And I've actually had a conversation with Doug McElroy

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about this. And when he proposed it in 1968, you know, how is it that that the solution to

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specialization eluded him, especially when the the incredible brains that were at that conference,

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it's a NATO conference in Germany at the time, and they were tasked with finding a way to solve

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solve the software crisis at the time. NATO being a military organization, the largest

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software projects at the time, probably like today, are military projects. And so there there was a

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lot of, you know, lot, you know, cost overruns and schedule overruns like there are with software

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today. It's, you know, software is a formidable problem to big projects, fair worse. And asking

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him about what, you know, why, why wasn't this reversal, you know, this solution to specialization,

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why wasn't it found, you know, discovered at that time, especially with the brains in that room.

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You know, I've got theories, he's got theories. And one of the theories is that

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that the high level languages that were invented at the time, only were invented

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in a few years earlier, 1954, with the advent of Fortran, and such a step change it was that

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high level languages were were just embraced, and it was expected that any solution would

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would involve high level languages. And so here, if you if you look carefully, we're reversing the

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integration responsibility to create a component, essentially turning a component from a piece of

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code to a service, a design service that we design that code into your project. And as a design

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service, we can protect your intellectual property. As a piece of code, I've got to tell you how to

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use it. I've got to embody that code that you can copy and use it in other projects. If I'm building

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that that piece of code, a fragment of code into your project, then that's not readily available

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for you to use, even though you have the right to in another project, you can see how how that

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that reversal converts it from a piece of code into a service. And really, there, there is no

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where do we we never pass through a compiler, we never pass through a, a coding stage with

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emerging coding, you select high level components, which is, you know, the embodied the features that

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you want your project to do, you contract them. And they essentially return you binary that you

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concatenate to produce the the final executable outcome. Those fragments of code were actually

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created by subcontractors to those prime contractors, well, technically, those subcontractors

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also use subcontractors and so on and so forth down the levels, many levels of abstraction. So

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we've got components that exist over many levels of abstraction all the way down to, you know,

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a fragment of code to add two numbers together, you would think such a component would be easy

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to implement. But, you know, to, to be given a construction site, you must participate in several

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collaborations, you know, you'll have to participate in a collaboration for your input

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variables and your output result. Because, you know, your piece of code has got to work with

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the other pieces of code that are being designed into that project at the same time. So you've got

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at least four collaborations, even if you wanted to design the code just to add two numbers together,

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you need to participate in a collaboration on on how one of those variables is going to be

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represented and where it's going to be, etc. And another variable for the two inputs, and then the

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output, you need to collaborate in another, you know, participate in another collaboration,

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arrive at an agreement for the output variable. And of course, you need to collaborate in the

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construction site itself. So you've got to do a lot of work to arrive at those agreements before

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you can render that fragment into my project via the construction site. But, yes, that

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it essentially predates high level languages. And there is in discussions with McElroy,

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it seems like that they were blinded at the time, just because of the incredible performance that

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high level languages were able to give them in the early stages of the software industry.

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And that it was just generally accepted that any solution for these reusable components things,

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you know, that we wanted to create had to be cast in the form of, you know, high level languages.

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And so these early attempts were like libraries of routines, you know, or, you know, objects in more

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recent times, or, you know, beans or the like. And so these are even components, there are many

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attempts at trying to solve this problem. But as, you know, something essential had to change, and

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it's a very big change. So it does mean that there are quite a significant departure from current

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methods. But it eliminates enormous levels of duplication where all these different languages

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need these different libraries. You know, we suffer the same thing in Bitcoin Cash, where we're,

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you know, we are beautifully decentralized with many different node suppliers, BCHN, BCHD, Flowy,

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Verdi, Knuth and the like. Now, they're using different languages and different libraries and

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so forth. So if we were a library, I mean, language agnostic, we could eliminate a lot of duplication.

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And we still get that diversity, but not from like having different node suppliers,

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from having different component suppliers, like the same component from several different suppliers,

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if you know what I mean. So we still get the diversity, but it's done properly like other

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industries, you know, I can buy a tire from Goodyear, and if that tire doesn't meet my

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requirements, I'll go to Bridgestone or the like, you know, a different supplier. And that

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competition over that one component means that we always get a premium quality outcome. So fixing

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those incentive structures. So there is some big changes that it's going to ruin, but of course,

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it's not because, you know, we don't have to do all this work for nothing. There are huge benefits

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associated with this. Correcting this incentive structure means the whole, this whole market is

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on a fast path for improvement. You build the same application with the same requirements tomorrow

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with this system, you're likely to see it being more, a lot of faster, stronger, because at every

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level of classification, at every level of abstraction, we have component suppliers competing

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for business. And that's why, you know, that's why this building software with this technology

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will converge on, you know, optimal solutions, which is really quite astonishing. You know,

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if you have a library, just the act of using, you know, a routine or an object out of a library,

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you know, you're conforming to a runtime interface. You're sacrificing runtime performance for

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it trying to determine its runtime context. We get the runtime context. At design time, we know,

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you know, when this code is going to run, what it's got to do and what it's got to work with.

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And so we can, these features when they're designed into the application can be very efficient.

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And, you know, that competition will drive that efficiency over time. Yeah, quite an interesting

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Yeah, this is something I've heard about from developers that have taken the pilgrimage to

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Townsville, and they've seen emerging coding in action, they've said, you know, some of the

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some of the outputs, the creations were just mind bogglingly small. So, you know, taking, taking,

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don't don't shoot me for the exact amounts, but I'm roughly in a factor of, you know, something

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that would be 500 kb that was already really small down to 50, it was just so incredibly efficient,

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only having because the the output only does exactly what it's been told to do. So you don't

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have any libraries with that. So very interesting. What I imagine many people will have the question

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is, like, just taking everything that you said, and thinking about this process of creating an

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output, and taking that all at face value that, okay, this creates a really efficient process

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that creates the desired output, and does so in a way that protects the intellectual process,

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the intellectual property of the person creating these agents and creating these components.

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And what I think is really interesting is thinking about the input, because for me personally, I can't,

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I find it very challenging to imagine how that input would be made in a way that someone can

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create what it is that they want to create more effectively than with code. And so on your website

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that you've got a screenshot showing the IDE or the software development system. Is there, you know,

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is there any videos that someone could take a look at, you know, to see how this is, how this

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works in action? Or is this something that is planned for the future? Yeah, look, that's very

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interesting. And a whole other field. It's quite a big question. I did allude to the, you know,

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the upper levels of these new components, you know, higher levels of abstraction, really being

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there to capture requirements. Remember, these components, there's no high-level language

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involved. So integrating these components are not your responsibility. You're contracting somebody

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else to do that. And so essentially, there's no glue code, which is what you would be faced with

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when you were conventionally integrating, you know, library routines or the like. There is no glue code here.

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These components will build, you know, they'll cooperate with each other and build their

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features into your project. So the input is, you know, essentially the high-level features that are

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domain-specific. So we call that top-level layer of components. We call it the behavior layer. And

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essentially, that's the, at the present time, at least, that's where we're limiting our upper levels

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of abstraction. And so you would create an application by selecting behavior-level components

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and putting them together. And that example that's on the website is our studio, you know, it's a

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little editor that attaches to the catalog. And so you can peruse the catalog for these, you know,

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these components that are available. And there is essentially one line of syntax. It's not a

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programming language. It's a contracting language. That line of syntax defines the contractor, you

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know, fully qualifies the name and the requirements that that contractor requires, including the

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construction site. And that document we call an expression is basically a list of those contractors

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and how they are expected to, you know, the permissions for them to cooperate with one another

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in order to deliver your binary executable. And each of those, each line is essentially going to

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cost some money because you're going to be contracting somebody to perform that service.

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And that's one of the beautiful features of building software with, you know, real components,

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is that, okay, you look them up in the catalog and you, all right, this component's, you know, 20

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cents or this component is $20 or whatever, you know, before you hit the build button exactly how

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much this is going to cost, how long it's going to take to build, what sort of resources it's going

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to use and what sort of performance you can expect, you know, those sorts of things, you know,

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those sorts of things are kind of upfront, like in other industries, you know, we, you know, before

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we purchase something or before we build something, if we know what the price of all the components

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are, we know pretty accurately what the total cost is. And so, here, we have the same advantages

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in building software. You, you know, you would create an expression and remember those high-level

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components, they're there to win market share. And so, being domain specific, if you're going to build,

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let's say, let's say, general protocols wanted to build the, their XO wallet, if you're going to

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build a wallet, you know, there are certain components that, that would be very useful

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for that specific kind of application, you know, and people could create components that target

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that kind of application, being domain specific. We are seeing vestiges of like domain specific

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languages in industry. And, you know, there is, there is, you know, some advantages to that.

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Here, it naturally pops out at high levels of abstraction that, you know, we can create a suite

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of behavior components that are targeting a specific form of application, making the expression

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of that application very easy to do. And if it's not easy to do, then, you know, an enterprising

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young man like yourself can see, hey, look, if I build this sort of component, I can make it even

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easier to use for people to, you know, create an expression. You can see how, how, you know, any

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impediment here, you just build another component and capitalize if there is, if there is an

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impediment, you know, in the car industry at the, you know, hundreds of, you know, 100 years ago,

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it's a formidable task to get a spark to occur inside an engine block under extreme pressure.

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You know, you got to get through that engine block somehow, and, you know, with a wire that

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can't be blown out from the pressure and create the spark at the right time. And, you know, an

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enterprising individual come up with an idea for, hey, I'm going to create a bolt. It's going to

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have a screw thread. It's making it really easy. But this bolt is going to have like an insulated

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core, and we're going to call it a spark plug. And we, it can easily be added to the engine.

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I'm going to solve everybody's problem overnight. This guy sold, you know, thousands of spark plugs.

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And everybody switched from 30 different methods of trying to get a spark into an engine block to

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just buying this guy's, you know, spark plug, which solved the problem kind of cleanly.

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So the same thing here. You know, these domain specific components, we can expect to see domain

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specific components pop up for every kind of application and, you know, software type that

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exists. There are hundreds of thousands of different software types. So we can expect,

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you know, domain specific suites of behavior agents for each of those software types to make it

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effortless for somebody to come along. And, you know, they've got an idea for some software,

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and they've got a checkbook or some Bitcoin cash. And they can readily create software to

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realize their idea. Okay, cool. That's fantastic. And that's actually a good point to go on to the

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question that I had. So just thinking about what domain specific components are already available,

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because as said, this has been now in testing. So understand that several companies are using this

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in the testing phase. And I'd just like to know, like, are we already seeing that? Are they also

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they're creating, are they just using the components that already been built to compile what they need?

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Or are they actually already starting to create these, the components themselves, as a requirement

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for their projects? And also, I'd love to hear about, you know, how is that testing going? And

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what's the feedback from the people that are using this? And are you happy with the results so far?

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Well, you know, technically, we're still, you know, in stealth mode. But I, you know, it's a very big

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project, and it's spanned decades, and tens of millions of dollars in investment. The market

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itself really consists of like, two pieces of software, essentially, one piece of software is

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what we call Studio, and it's really the product that we sell. Studio allows people to access the

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catalog and lay up these expressions and build them, you know, so manage the build process and

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return the binary executable. So Studio, it's quite a sophisticated piece of software, as you can

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imagine. And the other piece of software is an agent, you referred to it earlier, an agent is what

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a developer would field on their hardware, on, you know, where, and they would create the agent,

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which would allow that developer to accept, you know, many contracts simultaneously. So essentially,

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an agent can be thought of as a component server, even though this is, you know, it's a service

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that's being provided. So as I mentioned earlier, a developer moves from building many thousands of

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features into a single project to building a single feature into many thousands of projects.

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You know, this is the idea of specialization. And so the practical software components market merely

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consists of, you know, millions of these agents distributed around the world, and these Studio

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applications to allow people to use those components that are fielded by those agents. And

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that, the catalog is also distributed. So each agent, we use technology to, you know, cadamia

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to distribute the catalog. So the community itself is hosting the catalog. And it's integrated into

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each agent and each Studio application. And that's been, you know, that's quite, those two

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applications represent the entire market. That is the entire market. So essentially, component

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servers, the catalog, and Studio, which is tied together. And because the agents are hosted by

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their respective owners, the developers, that's why, you know, it's completely noncustodial.

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Their intellectual property of how their component works stays on their machine and is only

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accessible as a service. Their wallet for payment, et cetera, is on their machine. There isn't. And

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they're hosting a little bit of this international catalog where, you know, their particular

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component would be listed in a particular classification at a particular abstraction,

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along with all their competitors. And so that's the kind of, you know, the structure of it.

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But for testing purposes, we had to create, you know, several thousand components to,

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at several different levels of abstraction, to be able to build Studio, to be able to build

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an agent. And so a developer wishing to participate in this components market,

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they need to build an agent and run it on their software. But we have a beautiful system, which

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has several thousands of components, including a suite of behavior components that are purposefully

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designed to create agents. These are agents that can create agents. And this is part of that

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integrity issue that we spoke about earlier. And so here, a developer wishing to create a component

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and participate merely has to express the high-level requirements. And we've got domain

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specific components for that. You know, the sorts of things that you would need your agent to do.

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We've got components that can design those features. And so you, theoretically, you could

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express the requirements for your agent, submit it to this community, and in a few minutes, you

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know, receive a binary executable that would perfectly be compatible with the rest of the

411
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:04,760
community. You would then run up that agent on your hardware, make sure you test those services,

412
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:12,760
and then you would just register that agent with the catalog. And the agent has already got the

413
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:18,760
catalog built into it because it's decentralized. And so it's a matter of just participating in that

414
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:28,520
data structure, that global data structure, by publishing its design time interface, essentially.

415
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:34,600
It's like a business card for that particular component. And now it's accessible to the rest

416
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:43,800
of the world, and it can be generating income within minutes of, you know, joining the community.

417
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:57,720
So testing has really been a huge effort. We have what we call a rake. We can rebuild our entire

418
00:45:57,720 --> 00:46:06,840
portfolio of components by submitting the new requirements to the existing community of agents,

419
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:14,280
and they will generate, build a new generation. So if we need a feature to be added, especially in

420
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:20,680
these early days where we're not on the market yet, if we want to add a new feature, let's say we

421
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:30,120
want to put a balance sheet and profit and loss, an income statement in the console tab of your

422
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:37,480
agent so that you can look at your financial performance of your component, we would just

423
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:46,040
create those agents and just do another rake, and now every agent has this finance tab built into

424
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:54,840
their console. So the testing has been this process of raking new revisions as we approach

425
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:03,480
the reliability and performance and the features that we desire of the starting market, if you will.

426
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:15,880
And we do have a small number of technology partners that have their own components,

427
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:23,720
that are part of this early system, and we have, as you mentioned, we, in fact, we did some

428
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:33,000
tests way back in 2016 using Bitcoin when it was still electronic cash, and back in 2016, we had a

429
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:43,400
centralized version of the components market, and we built up a capability to a point where we could

430
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:52,520
actually create individual agents, and so we then decentralized, and so now we have a fully decentralized

431
00:47:52,520 --> 00:48:03,960
software components market that is created by this large group of software agents that we've had to

432
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:14,680
build, identify, build, test, deploy, and get them stable enough that we can build an application

433
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:22,040
from millions of contracts reliably. It's a formidable challenge. And the payment system,

434
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:28,040
of course, and I'd like to talk about that after I finish this question, but the payment system, too,

435
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:38,120
is a formidable challenge, but coming back to testing and in a decentralized manner with

436
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:49,480
a payment machinery, we did deploy a market internally in late 2023, and we did spend last

437
00:48:49,480 --> 00:49:02,440
year adding essential features. We were using the components market prior to 2023 without payment

438
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:09,800
machinery, so these agents would work for free. It's not a form that would be practical. If you're

439
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:17,000
going to build a component, you want to get paid for it. So the payment layer is a recent development,

440
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:24,840
and it has been a formidable challenge to get the payment machinery in there to make millions of

441
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:38,120
payments, very tiny payments, international, small payments, reliably. Each agent has to have a

442
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:44,600
wallet. Each agent receives payments. Each agent must make payments. So you can imagine there's a

443
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:50,600
ton of machinery inside an agent just for the... A ton of machinery and also imagine a ton of

444
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:56,840
bandwidth. So I think just to make it clear for everyone, so Noel was using BTC, so the original

445
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:04,680
chain, Bitcoin, before any forks or before the notorious forks and the block war, was using BTC

446
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:11,160
for these payment systems. But of course, as Noel alluded to, which everyone in the community is

447
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:17,240
aware of, because of increased usage without increasing the size of the blocks, which was

448
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:22,920
always planned by the original developer, the founder of Bitcoin, Satoshi Nakamoto, this wasn't

449
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:28,440
increased, which caused a lot of problems for you, as I understand, because this was handling this

450
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:35,640
sort of bandwidth of transactions. This isn't something that Visa or MasterCard, it can do

451
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,960
because of the low amounts of the money that's being transferred. So Visa and MasterCard,

452
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,280
especially Denver, still true today, was really only sort of affordable when you're talking about

453
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:52,760
whether it's 50 cents or a buck or something much higher. And of course, then you have the problem

454
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:58,920
of exchange rates in different countries and legal liability. If you're facilitating fiat,

455
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:05,800
especially across borders, across countries, there's a lot of risk there. And with fraud and

456
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:13,000
cashbacks, as well as everything else. So a sort of a decentralized working payment system

457
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:23,080
needed to be there. That was Bitcoin. BTC didn't work out. For whatever reason, there's a whole

458
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:30,040
book written about that. And then you moved it. So of course, there was the forks that happened.

459
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,680
There was the Bitcoin core, it continued its way with SegWit, we had Bitcoin Cash, continuing its

460
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,880
way on the original strategy of P2P Cash for the world. What made you choose Bitcoin Cash? What

461
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:45,480
properties did it have that you thought, hey, this is, you know, in all of the crypto world,

462
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,640
with all the possibilities that have in fiat, with Visa, with MasterCard, and all these different

463
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,960
payment systems, what made you choose Bitcoin Cash, which you use to this day?

464
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:02,760
Yeah, look, that's, you know, that is such a good question. You know, back in the day,

465
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:09,960
there was only Bitcoin. And in 2016, Bitcoin had already been taken over, but it was still practical,

466
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:17,000
you know, you could still use it as a medium of exchange. When it did,

467
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:25,320
when it did get full blocks, and it stopped working as a medium of exchange, it's not so much that it

468
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:32,040
stopped working, they didn't want you to use it as a medium of exchange. And so here, with this tech,

469
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:40,840
we really needed that medium of exchange. So, you know, we were involved in trying to win back the,

470
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:48,840
you know, the hijacking to get rid of the hijackers. We participated in Bitcoin XT, Bitcoin

471
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:56,840
Unlimited, Bitcoin Classic. You know, these are attempts to regain control of Bitcoin. And it was

472
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:05,160
pretty bleak. We, crypto can be thought of as a solution, looking for a problem. And we genuinely

473
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:13,400
have an industrial problem that is such a good match for cryptocurrency as a medium of exchange.

474
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:21,080
We have our software development tech, and crypto is software. It's completely virtual. It's, you know,

475
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:27,640
it can be completely implemented in software. It's such a perfect match. And, you know, we have a

476
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:35,560
decentralized system, and it's a decentralized system, and it's peer-to-peer. It's such a good match.

477
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:45,400
So when, I can remember, they were very dark days, because I wasn't aware of the work being done to

478
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:58,680
split Bitcoin Cash from Bitcoin. And I can recall in mid-July, SegWit was going to be activated in a

479
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:07,480
couple of weeks. And, you know, I've got no solution for this tech. I've got no solution for this tech.

480
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:17,480
And, you know, Bitcoin Cash popped up, you know, as a project two weeks before SegWit was going to

481
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:26,120
activate. And the first I heard of it, the, I, Omri Sashay, I, he never finished the sentence,

482
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:31,480
and I was on board. Like, I needed, I needed the original Bitcoin, which is what Bitcoin Cash is

483
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:38,200
today. I need that original Bitcoin. And we've actually taken it a lot further. Not only is

484
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:47,480
Bitcoin Cash perhaps the closest humanity has come to inventing ideal money, but it's got a lot of

485
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:55,640
other properties that make it, you know, very suitable, very ideal for global money, not least

486
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:01,960
of which is its governance model, which is miles and miles ahead of like any other, any other coin.

487
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:08,600
But it also has really advanced features. And we're using some of those features, you know,

488
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:17,320
in terms of smart contracting and the like, we make extensive use of payment channels. So we're not

489
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:24,280
only using a leading coin, we're using the leading tech on that leading coin. And we're using a

490
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:31,400
leading, you know, software development tech to implement it all. It is very, very exciting space

491
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,520
to be in these payment channels. As you can imagine, these components are made of smaller

492
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:43,400
components. And so each business, each business of producing a component is has long term

493
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:50,200
relationships with other businesses for those smaller components that they subcontract.

494
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:57,080
And those business relationships, they would be long term. Because if I'm going to subcontract you

495
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:05,480
for a component that gets embodied in my component, you're representing my reputation.

496
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:11,960
If I'm choosing a bad component, it's not reflecting on you, it's reflecting on me. You know,

497
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:19,880
I think the Ford Motor Company back in the late 80s did a recall in North Queensland

498
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:29,880
because a Bosch relay in their car wasn't specced correctly. And you could be driving down

499
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,200
the outback at high speed at the middle of the night and there goes your headlights.

500
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:43,320
And, you know, Bosch created the faulty relay, but it was Ford that took the hit. You know,

501
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,680
they did the recall and it was their reputation that got tarnished. And so these long term

502
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:55,160
relationships are really important to establish because, you know, you want to present the most

503
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:02,760
highest quality component to your suppliers to win market share, then you must use high quality

504
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:09,080
materials like in any other industry. So it's your choice of subcontractor is very important.

505
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:15,240
If you've qualified a subcontractor, you want to stick with them, even if there is perhaps

506
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:23,080
other suppliers that can supply the same part that you are supplying me, I would still stick

507
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:28,520
with you, you're qualified, you know, and if it got to a level where, gosh, you know, they're like

508
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:32,840
half price or something, I say, look, you know, gee, fiendish, you know, we've done a lot of

509
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:38,520
business together, but, you know, your competitor here is that half price, you know, can you sharpen

510
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:44,200
your pencil for me? You know, I'd still want to work within our relationship as in any other

511
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:50,520
industry. Those reputations are important. And those reputations are perfectly matched for

512
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:59,560
payment channels. And so here we can use a payment channel where we can elevate payments that are too

513
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:08,040
small for to operate in the Bitcoin cash, you know, payment system. We can elevate them into a

514
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:15,480
into a payment that's large enough to be on chain. So we're tapping into a whole payment channels

515
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:24,440
allow us to open a whole other part of the economy to pay on chain payments, you know, so this is

516
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:32,760
very exciting. And the properties of payment channels are just extraordinary. Because you

517
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:42,760
create an escrow where both the supplier and the client have signing rights. So the supplier can

518
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:49,480
never be can never be duped, you can never make a double double spend because the supplier,

519
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:55,640
your supplier actually has a say in creating the transaction. So they would never, you know,

520
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:02,760
dupe themselves. So there is just there is just zero chance of a double spend with a payment channel.

521
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:09,480
And you can have any level of protection because the escrow can be done offline, you know, can be

522
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:16,360
done weeks before we can have 1000 confirmations on the escrow. And then we can do as a payment

523
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:26,760
to you irreversible cash as quickly as I can sign a datagram that makes each of these payment

524
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:34,680
channels each of these payment channels exceed the capacity of all the world's, you know, credit

525
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:41,160
companies combined. You know, we can do millions of transactions in a payment channel, you know,

526
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:48,520
a per second effortlessly, because it only represents two transactions on the blockchain,

527
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,800
one to open the channel and one to close it at the end of the day.

528
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:57,080
And actually, yeah, that's a really interesting point, just thinking about emerging coding,

529
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:02,040
when this does have a public release and its effect on the chain. So what you what you just

530
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:07,800
said, they alludes to it is the fact that actually, even though it might be millions of payments via

531
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,560
the payment channels, in the end, that would be two transactions are very, very scalable,

532
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:17,400
which is fantastic for your business, fantastic for people using it as very, very low cost,

533
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:22,840
which means that the developers are the creators of these components gets to keep their money,

534
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,880
as opposed to it to go to other things. Yeah, just thinking about that in respect to

535
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:33,880
BCH. So if everyone looks onto the BCH, and network is possible to see a number of transactions,

536
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:43,160
and we can see that that there have been some incredible spikes since 2023. So the base level

537
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:48,680
somewhere between 11,000 and 15,000 transactions per day. But then suddenly, there are these

538
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:54,840
these spikes that last for one, sometimes two days, that have taken that that base level,

539
01:00:54,840 --> 01:01:01,880
and then, you know, 10 x or much more than that. And a lot of this activity is attributed to

540
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:06,840
emerging coding. So maybe, you know, just understanding what you've been saying there,

541
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:12,120
it sounds like the emerging coding wouldn't actually generate such a huge number of

542
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:16,600
transactions. So what was the cause of the spike of transactions in these times?

543
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:24,840
You know, excellent question. I did the calculations late last year, and emerging coding

544
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:34,440
coding was responsible for something north of 6% of all transactions on the Bitcoin Cash blockchain

545
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:41,800
worldwide last year. And yes, there were some huge, huge spikes. So coming back to if you can just

546
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:51,480
look at the market again, you have a you have a component supplier, he has five or 10 subcontractors.

547
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:57,000
Well, that component supplier would have a payment channel to each of its clients,

548
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:05,400
as well as payment channels to each of its suppliers. Now, when the market is operating,

549
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:10,760
we've got thousands of components in operation, you know, there's hundreds of thousands of payment

550
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:19,000
channels in operation at any given moment. Now, when we're doing testing, you know, we we bring,

551
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:28,200
we need to boot, we need to boot this components market into life. And that means we establish

552
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:36,200
large numbers of payment channels. Now, if we need to, for test purposes, we need to shut the

553
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:45,000
the market down, then we need to close a lot of these. So 150,000 payment channels, you know,

554
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:52,040
we might need to close. So what we were doing during testing, we were generating large numbers

555
01:02:52,040 --> 01:03:00,600
of, of transactions, as we were creating the the, you know, bring booting the market,

556
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:06,520
and large numbers again, when we would close the market for whatever purpose, if we had a new

557
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:12,680
revision or something like that, we restart. When it's in operation, you know, it would never be

558
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:24,040
shut down. Each each component can be replaced live, you know, it might be hosting 100,000 contracts,

559
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:31,720
and it will be we have a method where we can upgrade the your version, you know, you can build

560
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:37,480
a smarter, lighter, faster, stronger version, and bring across the the contracts that are currently

561
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:44,600
in flight. So part of the testing that that it is inflated the numbers, like you said, there are,

562
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:53,000
excuse me, there were a much more larger number of actual transactions last year. But

563
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:59,080
principally, that was because we were starting and stopping the components market for whatever reason,

564
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:06,600
and as we were adding features or testing, you know, improving performance or the like. So,

565
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,360
That makes a lot of sense. So we're just thinking about like the, so you've got a few hundred

566
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:19,080
thousand channels, as I understand today, what, and what sort of length, when do those channels

567
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,920
need to close? Is this something that can stay open for a year? Or is it is it a shorter schedule?

568
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:31,720
Good question. And really, that's really up to the individual developer. As you can imagine, we have

569
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:37,080
components that exist over many levels of abstraction. And if you're having a supplier,

570
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:42,600
you know, at a certain level of abstraction, you have certain suppliers at a lower level of

571
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:51,960
abstraction, your, your income is essentially the the cost of goods. So the these, your contracts

572
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:59,960
to those suppliers, and you would add a margin, you know, so typically, we would operate with like a 20,

573
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:05,960
a developer would operate with a 20% gross margin. And so your price that you would list in the

574
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:14,280
catalog would essentially give you, you know, 20% return on any contract that you receive,

575
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:22,680
because you'll be spending 80% of that contract fee with your suppliers. And the the payment

576
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:31,240
channels, you know, you can, you can put, it's up to you how many payments you can put into a channel,

577
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:37,800
you know, you can open a channel. Yeah, there are two parameters there, the number of payments in

578
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:44,040
a channel and the length of the channel, the time that the channel operates over. And so

579
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:49,720
during testing, we might run channel lengths of only a single day, to maybe a week. But

580
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:58,280
when the market is, is operational, it's up to developers, you know, having a channel operational

581
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:09,480
for say, a month can really cut your costs. But you're you're not only when that channel closes,

582
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:16,440
does that money get freed up into your wallet. And so you can cut costs, you know, reduce costs

583
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:22,760
and reduce the fees. But you know, you don't have access to those funds until the channel actually

584
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:29,000
close. So I could probably run a channel over a three or four days. But I'm paying a higher

585
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:35,720
percentage in fees, but I get access to that money sooner from an accounting purpose, you know,

586
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:42,360
in the channel when a payment is made, the instant I send you that datagram, I can never get that

587
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:50,600
money back. Like that is irreversible. You've got the transaction. There is nothing I can do to get

588
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:57,080
that money back. So from an accounting perspective, the payment in the channel, even though it hasn't

589
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:05,320
settled on chain, is when it's considered that you're being paid. Because that's the irreversible

590
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:06,920
event, if you know what I mean.

591
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:14,920
That's really interesting. So it sounds like it might be then kind of tricky to say on public

592
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:20,920
release, when this is being in the hands of people and people can come to you and use this tool,

593
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:26,600
pay for this tool, it would be impossible to say sort of what sort of transaction level it would be.

594
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:32,120
It really depends on everyone that is using this and how often they want to open and close the

595
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:36,840
channels. But it certainly wouldn't be the spikes that we've been seeing is what I understand,

596
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,520
not unless you've got a lot of new updates coming out and need to restart the whole mechanisms

597
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:48,600
behind this. Is that correct?

598
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,600
I think I've lost you.

599
01:07:52,600 --> 01:08:05,320
Can you not hear me? Okay, then I had some more questions for Noel. So I'll have to save them for

600
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:12,280
another time, unless Noel can get his mic work as his headphones working. But these are the sort of

601
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:20,200
usual issues that happen with Twitter. So Noel is also responsible for, in Townsville where

602
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:28,040
Emerging Coding and Code Valley is based, is a town with a lot of BCH adoption. And this BCH

603
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,040
adoption, so I see there that we've got Bitcoin Jason is one of the people listening. I don't know

604
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:35,800
if Bitcoin, if you want to get on the mic and talk a little bit about the work you've done in the past,

605
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:42,200
but Bitcoin Jason is also someone who helped with this of getting merchants on board accepting

606
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:48,920
Bitcoin Cash in the surrounding area. And the idea behind this was, if you've got this

607
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:53,720
amazing tool that's coming out and people can build their agents and people can build their

608
01:08:53,720 --> 01:09:00,200
machine code using this platform, and the backbone of that is Bitcoin Cash, then there also needs to

609
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:07,880
be, it's much more valid if there's a market for Bitcoin Cash, rather than these developers,

610
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:16,600
agent builders, do cash out into fiat. And so, Code Valley spent a lot of money in creating this

611
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:22,600
market there of lots of different businesses, all accepting Bitcoin Cash with the idea of

612
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:34,600
trying to create closed markets. And this is why Townsville is now, has been known as Bitcoin Cash

613
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:41,720
City, and is sort of a pilgrimage for a lot of people that are in the community for a long time

614
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:51,960
to travel there and to experience this, being able to use Bitcoin Cash on a day to day basis,

615
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:59,240
and in the stores you go to, if you want to have your haircut or grab a Coke. So, very, very

616
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:06,680
interesting place. So, I'm going to just remove Null and then try and bring it back in, see if we

617
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:17,160
can get one word on that. Yeah, and tied in with that, so there has been a Bitcoin Cash conference

618
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:24,360
way back in Townsville, several years ago, and there was also another conference planned, oh,

619
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:29,320
Bitcoin Jason, there you go, should be able to give me the mic, there's a Bitcoin Cash conference

620
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:36,600
in Townsville planned later this year, which is the third larger Bitcoin Cash conference in Townsville,

621
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:44,280
Bitcoin Cash conference that I'm aware of that is happening this year. Hi Jason, did you,

622
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:52,280
you're free to speak. Oh, yeah, no, I love living. How's it going, man? It's going good, living the

623
01:10:52,280 --> 01:11:02,680
dream. Yeah, great. There's nothing like going to work and just going through a drive-through and

624
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:10,680
paying in Bitcoin Cash. There's nothing like it. I'm a bit spoiled in a way because there's a lot

625
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:20,040
of merchants here that accept it and the recent price pump was pretty good during the holidays,

626
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:31,640
so I had a little bit of extra conversion that I can do and I got my ute fixed with it, got new

627
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:43,240
tires on the X5, so anything from mechanics to groceries, coffee, helicopter rides,

628
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:50,120
that sort of stuff, it's quite good that you can, plasterers, you got plasterers, painters,

629
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:59,880
lawn care people, all using Bitcoin Cash. It's a new cashie for the tradies. We've got a lot of

630
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:06,440
builders. Cashie for the... Yeah, no, I'm being fair dinkum. I'm being fair dinkum because

631
01:12:06,440 --> 01:12:11,640
the thing about cashies, right, if you do a cashie as a trade, talking in trademen talk,

632
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:20,360
you're doing a cashie, you're doing it at a discount rate. So what the tradies do is if they do a cashie,

633
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:25,560
they prefer Bitcoin Cash because they know that whatever residual that they have in Bitcoin Cash,

634
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:32,600
they know it's going to appreciate over time. So that's why a lot of tradies love it.

635
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:43,480
For someone like myself, having something that appreciates over time, if you use a trade,

636
01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:50,120
say you get your air conditioning fixed and you pay them in Bitcoin Cash, not only are you getting

637
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:56,040
a discount rate, getting their work done, but because the asset has appreciated over time,

638
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:03,320
you get it at another discount on top of that. So that was the case.

639
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:04,280
Living the dream. Yeah.

640
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:09,320
It's fine. It is. It's living the dream. And yeah, so I know I think you're back. So

641
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,400
what I was just talking about while you're having the technical difficulties

642
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:19,000
was just about the adoption that happened in Townsville. So there's a lot of Bitcoin Cash

643
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:24,680
adoption. I don't think you heard. So what I was saying was that this was basically,

644
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:32,520
this was done as a strategical shift so that to give it an economical loop for people that are

645
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:37,720
using emerging coding, so the financial tool, the backbone has been Bitcoin Cash. So there's,

646
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,800
you know, for people rather than having to cash out into fiat and go through that particular

647
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:47,240
issue of using exchanges or whatever that is, that they can just actually go and use their Bitcoin

648
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:52,280
Cash that they've earned and spend it in the garage, in the spa, for the hairdressers,

649
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:59,320
in the local shops and so on. So it basically gives even more boost to this ecosystem.

650
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:03,880
I don't know if there's anything you want to add to that or, you know, and about the

651
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:09,800
efforts you've been doing as part of Bitcoin Cash adoption around Townsville or, as I've

652
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:18,600
let everyone knows, Bitcoin Cash city. Certainly, it grew out of being a huge fan of

653
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:27,080
Bitcoin Cash or crypto. I felt a need to give back to the community because

654
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:35,480
essentially, you know, I'm getting to use the payment layer for free. Like it's an extraordinary

655
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:41,880
capability and it was just created selflessly by Satoshi and all the folks in the Bitcoin Cash

656
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:50,440
community. So I felt that, you know, as a company, as a corporate entity, we're going to use this as

657
01:14:50,440 --> 01:14:59,320
a payment layer for monetization and I wanted to contribute back to the community. And gosh,

658
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:07,560
you know, we've moved on from that now to a point where it would make so much sense for Australia to

659
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:15,400
adopt Bitcoin Cash as legal tender. Just think what an efficient currency and payment system would do

660
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:23,400
for our GDP, you know, and international trade, you know, all that exchange rates and corruption.

661
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:32,280
And so it would go out the window. You know, it would make so much sense to and be quite smart if

662
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:37,400
Australia could be proactive and be one of the first nations to adopt Bitcoin Cash. There would

663
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:43,560
be huge advantages to the first nation. I wouldn't want to be the 150th nation to adopt Bitcoin Cash,

664
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:51,640
for example. Yeah, and with regard to that, so I can highly recommend the book Free to Choose

665
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:59,160
by Milton Friedman to understand just why that would be the case. So, you know, by not having

666
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:05,480
these exchange rates, which are hugely manipulated by central banks of the various countries,

667
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:13,160
which causes huge resource allocation mismatch and therefore like quite a significant decrease

668
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:19,080
in our wealth. So just having this currency, you know, a lot of people still think about coins in

669
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:23,560
their wallet, but essentially that database is just distributed everywhere. It's essentially,

670
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:27,480
you know, and it's a ledger just like beads and you're just moving beads across to different

671
01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:34,280
accounts. So, you know, you don't have that. There's no borders for Bitcoin Cash. There's

672
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:40,200
no exchange rates. And the most important thing of all is there isn't a government that has can

673
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:48,680
use monetary policy that can, you know, inflate the currency and everything else to distort the

674
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:53,320
market. So, you know, it's not just all of the middlemen you're cutting out, which is a huge

675
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:57,960
boon, you know, all those banks, all those people that involved in the exchanging currencies,

676
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:01,720
which is complicated. If you look at the back end, they've been changing the Australian dollar to

677
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:09,720
the American dollar to euros. It just removes it all and allows that price information to travel

678
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:17,960
unimpeded. It's clean. It's basically the highest signal it can possibly be, which invariably leads

679
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:25,160
to a lot more wealth creations. So, yeah, as I said, free to choose is one, but there's many

680
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:32,600
out there, also Rockbar to basically delve into that concept, which is really interesting and why

681
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:40,360
a lot of people, I guess, are very interested in cryptocurrency as a whole. So, yeah, I'm not

682
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:46,680
sure if you wanted to talk at all about the conference. So, I know that, you know, that you're

683
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:55,640
organizing a Bitcoin Cash conference in Townsville later this year. Is that something you'd be

684
01:17:55,640 --> 01:18:01,160
interested to sort of go into any details or is that something you'd rather save for another time?

685
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:06,600
No, no, look, I would thrilled. I think it's important to mention it. I think it would be wise.

686
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:17,160
The conference is slated for late August this year. We haven't posted the tickets yet. We didn't

687
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:29,400
want to step on any bliss toes and we did want to wait until Buenos Aires, Argentina had posted the

688
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:41,000
outcomes of their conference. So, the way is open now. So, we are proceeding to post the ticket

689
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:49,000
prices and the theme we are super excited about. As you mentioned, the Bitcoin Cash city has a very

690
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:54,200
high level of adoption and the mission of Bitcoin Cash is to become money for the world. So,

691
01:18:54,200 --> 01:19:01,400
essentially, every city needs to adopt Bitcoin Cash, not just our city. And the city is at one

692
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:07,400
level in the mission. You know, the nation, becoming legal tender of a nation is also part

693
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:12,680
of the mission. Every nation has to make Bitcoin Cash legal tender if it's going to be money for

694
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:24,760
the world. So, the conference theme is this one of legal tender. And Australia does have quite a nice

695
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:31,720
enviable history of getting things right. We are one of the first nations to decimalize our currency.

696
01:19:32,440 --> 01:19:40,520
We did before the UK, for example. And we were one of the first nations, as a nation, we were

697
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:48,600
created through consensus where the six states got together and said, hey, let's do this. And we

698
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:58,040
became without a war, without any kind of civil unrest, we became a nation. So, there are these

699
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:05,400
kind of points in time where Australia has kind of got it right. And we should now with the advent of

700
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:13,400
sound money, you know, history, we've never as in the history of the earth had sound money,

701
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:22,840
something this good. And so, we can, you know, force, you know, move the government as

702
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:34,040
representatives of the people by adopting Bitcoin Cash. And we have now at our disposal sound money

703
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:39,480
for the first time. And so, we would like to proactively, just like we did with decimalization

704
01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:47,480
or with metrication, it would make great sense for us to show some leadership again with the,

705
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:54,040
you know, adopting legal tender in Australia. And to show other nations that it's possible.

706
01:20:54,920 --> 01:21:03,000
And just how good it is for that role. It would be extraordinary if a country like Australia were to

707
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:11,080
adopt Bitcoin Cash for legal tender. You know, I would... Absolutely. I think this would be massive.

708
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:16,760
So, you know, as you know, we've talked about this is something that I think would be a game changing.

709
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:21,240
So, I know that a lot of libertarian or anarchist people within the community are very skeptical

710
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:27,160
of legal tender, because it's the idea of asking permission. And I always challenge that because

711
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,080
it's not about asking permission. Anyone can use Bitcoin Cash, whether there is a legal framework

712
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:35,560
for it or not. That's not... It's permissionless, right? Nothing can stop that. But the point is,

713
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:42,840
is that for your, you know, law-abiding merchant that wants to accept Bitcoin Cash, so as you,

714
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:47,000
as a Bitcoin Cash user, you want more people to accept Bitcoin Cash. And many people want to be

715
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,920
able to stay within the realms of the law. They don't want to go to jail. They don't want to risk

716
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:57,160
tax avoidance. So, they want to be able to pay their taxes. And that's a real pain in the ass

717
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:01,720
to be quite blunt about it today, because you accept Bitcoin Cash. All right, the price is

718
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:06,120
continuously changing. Do you sell it now? Do you sell it later? But the point eventually when you

719
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,560
are paid is when it's going to be taxed on, which means that the price goes down, you might end up

720
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:14,200
owing more tax than it's even worth theoretically, if something was to go really wrong, right?

721
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:20,440
So, being able to pay taxes and be able to pay your VAT or whatever it's called in your own

722
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:25,880
countries, you know, the added, the value added tax on that good or service. If there's a legal

723
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:31,960
framework for you to be able to pay for that and send that money either automatically or easy

724
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:38,200
via transfer to the government or tax collection agency, this would make it much easier for

725
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:45,720
companies to be able to accept Bitcoin Cash. It makes their financing, their accounting

726
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:51,000
infinitely easier. And I'm a great believer that the only way that Bitcoin Cash, and it's the

727
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:57,240
only way that Bitcoin Cash will become a global used currency by the world is when there's no

728
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:02,680
friction. And tax is a friction that needs to overcome whether you're pro tax or against tax.

729
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:11,000
It's irrelevant. It's completely irrelevant because many people do need to and want to,

730
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:15,320
whether willingly or not, it doesn't matter. They need to pay that tax to be able to accept Bitcoin

731
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:20,760
Cash without a lot of friction. So, I think there's a really great movement what you're pushing for

732
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:28,600
now. And yeah, I'm looking forward to being able to hear if you get any, you know, the local

733
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:36,120
politicians or mayor involved in this from Townsville, because it's the kind of initiative that

734
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:42,600
can, you know, it takes a grain of an idea, but it can easily sprout into something really meaningful

735
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:45,800
to the benefit of Australia, if you would have managed to pull that one.

736
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:54,360
Certainly, our conference in 2019 was the first cryptocurrency conference ever to walk the talk.

737
01:23:54,360 --> 01:24:01,880
And we did leverage, you know, our merchant, our local merchants that, you know, our high levels of

738
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:08,920
merchant adoption, so that delegates could experience the future of money while they were here.

739
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:15,080
We've got three and a half times those, that number of merchants today, and we're expecting

740
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:22,360
to increase that number by the time of the conference. So, it's, it'll be a unique experience

741
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:31,960
where people can experience that, the future of money. And this big mission is, like, it's mind

742
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:41,000
blowing that we have sound money. And you're making a great, you're making a great point about

743
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:46,840
the local merchants and industry, but what about balance of trade? What about international trade

744
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:54,440
being, you know, in a common currency, like the EU, you know, with the euro, but now at a global level,

745
01:24:55,080 --> 01:25:01,560
and with a money which doesn't favour, you know, nobody can print it, so nobody can abuse it.

746
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:09,240
One of the advantages of fiat is that, you know, it can be printed, and that has certain

747
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:15,320
advantages to the host nation. But if we're going to share it, it's like everybody using the US

748
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:20,120
dollar, but only the US can print it. You know, that's not a level. Exactly, and this is the

749
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:25,960
important thing with, like, game theory, right? It has the advantage, it has advantage to the country

750
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:30,200
that's doing it, but all countries have this possibility, so then everyone loses. And it's

751
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:34,680
also, you know, so currently it's a way, so the US dollar, if you want to buy oil, if you want to

752
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:39,880
buy gold, it has to go for the US dollar. So the US has done this amazing monopoly on the global

753
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:45,480
currency, and so they can send the dollars around so that, you know, they can use their dollars to

754
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:49,000
buy goods, because at the end of the day, money is worthless. This is the important thing. It's

755
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:53,880
only what you can buy with the money that has value. So they send paper, this, you know,

756
01:25:53,880 --> 01:26:00,200
useless thing for real goods. And the idea is it's a promise of, you know, you're buying a TV from

757
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:06,040
Japan or a car from China, and it's a promise that you're going to be able to get a dollar's worth

758
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:10,360
of goods from America at a certain point. Now, of course, that might be going, you know, the Chinese

759
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:13,880
might be buying it from Europe or whatever, but essentially, at the end of the day, that dollar

760
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:21,080
will have to be transferred for something from America. But in the case of America, the Fed can

761
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:25,560
print out more dollars, meaning the purchasing power of that dollar goes down, which is how they

762
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:30,200
actually manage to export debt around the world. And it's not just America that does this. It's just

763
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:39,400
they're the largest foreign money that's used as a global currency. But all countries play in this

764
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:44,680
game, and it's actually detrimental to everyone's wealth. So, yeah, even though it's an advantage

765
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:49,960
to that one country, in the end, it disadvantages everyone. So having something like Bitcoin cash

766
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:56,280
being used as the global currency will literally make everyone wealthy. That's a good pitch.

767
01:26:56,280 --> 01:27:01,880
Yeah. And it's one of the things I like about emerging coding using Bitcoin cash. It's an

768
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:10,440
industrial use case. And it's leading the way, showing other companies that they can rely on

769
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:17,960
this payment technology, this community, this governance model. And it just needs somebody

770
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:25,880
to show them, right? So, yeah, look, I'm looking forward to reporting some outcomes of emerging

771
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:35,640
coding, hopefully at the conference. And, of course, its theme of legal tender, that is a huge,

772
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:41,480
a huge theme. That's where we've got to be, right? That's where every nation has to be.

773
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:51,400
It starts at your local corner shop, your city, and your nation. Every nation has to proceed. So

774
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:56,840
let's give it a go. And someone has to start. And someone has to push for that start. And that's

775
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,640
you. And I'm really happy to hear that. So, Noel, of course, I know you're a very busy man. You have

776
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:09,000
a conference this summer. You mentioned already there is another conference, BCH Bliss, which is

777
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:17,880
taking place in May in the EU in Slovenia, the capital city, which is Ljubljana. And what are

778
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:22,600
the chances that we'll be seeing you or any representative from Code Valley joining us?

779
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:27,160
Because just to sort of pitch it a little bit, you mentioned some key people in the industry.

780
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:31,800
You said you're a supporter of XT. You're a supporter of Bitcoin Unlimited. And I'm sure

781
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:40,520
you're well aware Peter Ryzen is going to be at BCH Bliss, one of the founders of Bitcoin Unlimited,

782
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:44,200
very, very smart guy. And he's going to be showcasing. He's actually on the panel. He'll

783
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:49,800
be giving a speech about his hardware that he's using for scaling UTXO, which I imagine is

784
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:56,520
something you would find incredibly interesting. So what are the chances? Is there any likelihood

785
01:28:56,520 --> 01:29:01,160
of seeing you or someone from Code Valley joining us this May in Ljubljana?

786
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:08,520
Yes, certainly. We are discussing it right now. If it makes sense. If we've got reportable.

787
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:10,760
Of course it makes sense. What stupid question is that?

788
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,320
If we've got something to report, that would be good.

789
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:19,880
This is the most awesome thing for the Bitcoin Cash community. And we've got the general

790
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:24,840
protocols that there. We've got Peter Ryzen's there. And listen, if that doesn't set it, no,

791
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:31,160
no, I'm going. Right? Yeah, no, no. Yeah, just wanted to point out one more thing.

792
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:38,440
You know, as we're coming back to emerging coding in this components market, we've built

793
01:29:38,440 --> 01:29:47,400
the market with the market, if you will. So we actually have very good coverage of Bitcoin

794
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:56,360
Cash style software. There are thousands of these components that are dedicated to supporting

795
01:29:56,360 --> 01:30:03,400
Bitcoin Cash software, constructing Bitcoin Cash software. As you'd imagine, each agent must accept

796
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:08,360
payments and make payments to a supplier. So it has a wallet, has these payment channels,

797
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:13,800
these smart contracting, holy smokes. So I think, you know, from the community's perspective,

798
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:21,160
there is a lot to offer, not just as a vanguard for industry using Bitcoin Cash, but one of the

799
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:28,200
very few types of software we can actually create with emerging coding is actually Bitcoin Cash type

800
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:36,360
software. So there is this advantage that we are bringing to the community, not just in its use

801
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:45,640
in its use as a payment system or putting economic activity on the blockchain. But one of the very

802
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:51,800
few types of software we can create from the get go, we need component coverage to create any

803
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:57,080
kind of software. And one day there will be millions of components for sure. But from the get go,

804
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:03,800
because of our need to build a system with the system, we have had to support Bitcoin Cash

805
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:12,120
components. And so hats off to Aptisio, our tech partner who've created thousands of Bitcoin Cash

806
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:17,720
components. And I certainly would love to see them at the Bliss Conference. That would be

807
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:27,240
fantastic to have those guys there. Yeah, and it's exactly the conference for those guys.

808
01:31:27,240 --> 01:31:32,120
You know, BCH Bliss is for everyone and everyone who's interested in Bitcoin Cash is

809
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:39,480
is heartily invited and will be very welcome there. But the primary purpose of Bliss is for

810
01:31:39,480 --> 01:31:44,760
the builders. It's for people showcasing what they're working on, people's ideas, and looking

811
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:53,240
at where they're going to be focusing their energy on in the future, so that we can also improve the

812
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:59,000
network, the ecosystem, the user experience for everyone that's already in the ecosystem,

813
01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:07,560
and also to attract more people into it. Because to reach our goal, there's still roughly 8 billion

814
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:13,000
people who need to be adopted to this amazing currency. But Noel, it'd be fantastic if you

815
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:18,280
would be able to join us at BCH Bliss. I don't know if you've been to Slovenia. I've only been

816
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:23,880
once and it was for the conference. I mean, I can genuinely say as someone that has spent a lot of

817
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:31,160
time in some of the nicest places in Europe, it's a really beautiful city. It's like Austria,

818
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:40,360
beautiful hills, forested, very clean. And you can also spend Bitcoin Cash in quite a wide range of

819
01:32:41,480 --> 01:32:49,320
shops. I'm not sure how it compares to Townsville in its adoption. It's not Bitcoin Cash only. It's

820
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:58,280
ELEPAY. So they accept a range of cryptocurrencies and many of the point of sales, which I really

821
01:32:58,280 --> 01:33:02,920
appreciate your stance since you accept all cryptocurrencies as long as it's Bitcoin Cash.

822
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:07,880
But it does mean you can spend Bitcoin Cash. You can actually pay for the hotel in Bitcoin Cash.

823
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:13,400
It's a Sheraton, so it's very nice. You can pay for the beer there, even the taxi to the airport,

824
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:20,760
which I think is a critical part. You can't have a Bitcoin Cash conference anywhere,

825
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:29,000
in my opinion, in good faith, unless you can pay for at least most of the way in Bitcoin Cash,

826
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:34,280
which is possible. So I'm sure if you were looking for a little holiday with your wife,

827
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:40,680
then Slovenia is a good place to come to and spend some time.

828
01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:44,680
Sounds like a plan. Fantastic.

829
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:51,480
This up, so Emergent Coding. Noel, when have we got a public release?

830
01:33:53,720 --> 01:34:02,680
We're in the process of bringing up what we call the G29s. This is the version that we want to

831
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:11,080
take to market. We do have another version with some more of the roadmap features in the works,

832
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:23,560
the G30s. So our plan is to bring up this market pretty much immediately, and it just stays up.

833
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:34,040
So that's going to be the early stage of the launch. We'll invite specific developers to give

834
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:42,520
it a go, and once we are confident of its scaling and so forth, we will release the Kraken. We'll

835
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:51,720
open it for a public launch sometime. It's looking pretty good for this year, but it's a very large

836
01:34:51,720 --> 01:35:03,000
project. It's taken enormous amount of effort. Like John said, I can't give you any dates, but I

837
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:11,960
would love to have something very reportable for Bliss and something even more significant for the

838
01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:15,480
Bitcoin Cache City Conference later this year.

839
01:35:15,480 --> 01:35:23,320
Okay. So fingers crossed for a 2025 launch of Emergent Coding. It's been a long time in the

840
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:33,400
making. I think the first time we spoke was early 2022, which was when I was first equated to this

841
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:39,240
project. So it's very exciting to see this being released. Thank you so much for joining today,

842
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:43,800
Noel. That was really fantastic, really informative. I hope the audience also enjoyed it.

843
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:51,240
For all of your listeners, please make sure to follow Noel and Code Valley on Twitter,

844
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:58,040
at levissanol and codevalley42 respectively. For all of your listeners as well, if you enjoyed the

845
01:35:58,040 --> 01:36:02,280
show and want to show your appreciation, please feel free to drop some BCH or a Fiendish token

846
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:06,600
into our wallet. Cash tokens address is in the description of the Twitter profile, and there's

847
01:36:06,600 --> 01:36:13,080
also a QR code in the comments. You can also find links there to codevalley.com, which I advise

848
01:36:13,080 --> 01:36:17,880
for all of you who found this interesting, go and check it out and you can follow the news there.

849
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:23,000
The next episode of Fiendish in France is in two weeks. So next week, unfortunately, the guests

850
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:27,960
who we had who's going to be coming back on, we've rearranged it, but couldn't make it for

851
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:33,320
next week due to moving. So the next episode will be in two weeks at four o'clock Central European

852
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:41,720
time, and it's featuring a Bitcoin Cache rockstar developer, Jason Drazener, who was behind the cash

853
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:48,520
tokens upgrade 2023 and also responsible for a lot of the work and the chips in the Velma upgrade

854
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:54,840
this May, which we'll be celebrating at Bliss 2025. And he's coming on to talk about his work

855
01:36:54,840 --> 01:37:00,760
in the ecosystem, the chips that he's already created and is working on and what's next for

856
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:05,080
Bitcoin Cash. So just make sure to pop some Fiendish tokens into the jukebox, hit play

857
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:12,280
to convert tokenized Fiendish time into 60 minutes, 120 minutes, however many minutes it takes

858
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:18,680
of the best Bitcoin Cash news and podcasts. This was Fiendish in France. I wish you a good morning,

859
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:35,480
good day and good night. Take care everyone. Bye.