Happy New Year and welcome to 2025 all you Pink2P cash lovers and GreenEye Liberty loving
fiends. We hope you all had a relaxing and recuperating Christmas so that you are well
rested and charged up for the best year yet for freedom cash and the hardest money that
has ever existed. But now it's time to put down the mulled wine and mince pie and pull
up our wellies as we get stuck into the most critical phase of the fight for decentralized
freedom. And to kick it off all off in the very first episode of Finnish and Friends
this year we start with an absolute banger straight out of the gate with the true warriors
of the mission. So joining us today we have the BCH Bulls, John Neri, imaginary username
and Jonathan Silverblood might be coming if he can manage to pull out the BCH Bliss crew
which is unlikely but hey let's keep our fingers crossed. So yes that's right the number one
of the BCH app and DeFi team is here General Protocols to talk about several topics including
BCH Bull and AnyHedge the tech that drives it, XO Wallet and Stack and its vision for
the ecosystem, BCH 2025 State of the Union and what is planned this year to bring us
another step closer towards worldwide usage and adoption. Are you excited? I know I am.
Not only do you get to listen to the hottest people in the space but Finnish and Friends
is rewarding its live listeners with up to 50,000 emerald just listen live and retweet
this space. More details can be found on our Twitter profile or in the Finnish Friends
Telegram group. First up this week in the news be wary of your heroes. Elon Musk's comments
on H1B immigration faces backlash on Twitter leading to the deplatforming of several prominent
critics including having their premium account ticker and subscriptions removed from them.
Regardless of the take on the situation Elon's ability to financially punish or silence his
opponents has spooked many. Putting Twitter's free speech stance under the spotlight and
again highlighting the critical need for decentralized protocols such as NOSTA or Bitcoin Cash to
protect against the perils of centralization and essentially to protect against human nature.
On the topic of decentralization BCHD an alternative Bitcoin Cash full node implementation written
in Go released an upgrade to bring it back into consensus with the ecosystem offering
critical decentralized choice to BCH node operators in the software they choose to run.
Moria USD the first over-clatterized stablecoin on BCH triggered its first liquidation of
a BCH loan that was under 110% over-clatterization ensuring that the peg was maintained even
during the recent market pullback that saw BCH price drop in double digit percentages
showcasing Moria's dependability and stability during high market volatility. That was the
news and now for the main event and why everyone is here please welcome John Neary a new name
to the mic. Hi guys and thanks for using your meeting time to join us today.
Hello. Yeah hello thanks for inviting us.
Hello yes oh it's an honor it's a privilege. Did you guys manage to get some well-needed
downtime over the holidays did you have a break?
Some of us did. Sort of.
We do a lot of things right there's a there's GP that we do and yeah take a break a bit
but then there's also other things that we work on right so yeah one thing falls off
and one thing picks up but yeah it took some days off spend some time with family I did.
Good. Good it's important I think because we're
in for the marathon this isn't a sprint as we've now really learned the hard way we're
not going to get to worldwide usage. I mean it's a marathon where you're constantly
reminded that things are on fire all the time so yeah.
Yes things are constantly on fire all the time but hopefully there's been a little less
fire out or putting out of fires over the last 12 months or even now 24 months as we've
worked towards building forwards you know as we mentioned just before we started the
two-year curse of or the biannual curse of things imploding on bch seems to have come
to an end.
Yeah you name identified that curse and much much earlier on many many years ago right
when when many of us were still smoking a bit of copium and being like everything's
fine you know split whatever BSP split ABC split whatever you know price whatever.
The last time I thought this the last time I thought this was over was 2022 and and we're
like okay so it doesn't look like there's gonna be a chain split or you know a a consensus
split of any kind we should be safe it's it's everything will be fine from now on and then
and then we realized that we not only we not only had to be careful about chain splits
we also have to guard against major scams so there is that yeah.
Yes and yeah it's been well the fact that things have have stabilized and become solid
is is not at all an accident right there's a lot of discussions with other coins that
won't be named and people to some degree representing those coins and they really they really have
no clue what it means to to face adversity and in a in a coin and maintaining a network
and actually keeping it decentralized and man there's there's nobody else who's done
that what BCH has done and still come out you know smelling not too bad doing all right
so yeah man it's not an accident we've learned a lot we've got the the bruises the scars
and we know what we're doing and keep just keep getting better so yeah no accidents
what we're doing so far.
Yeah and this is one thing I think is quite obvious for me when I when I think about like
benefits of centralization and the benefits of decentralization if you centralize something
centralize a project it's kind of easier to survive those storms if you have a very strong
leader at the top and someone that you know the project belongs to someone they can throw
money in it and win that case but of course as we all know in BCH why centralization is
incredibly dangerous especially when it comes to money it's just not even not even worth
thinking about so the decentralized approach I think you know it has to go through those
battle scars it has to learn how to you know to remain decentralized and and being decentralized
does make it harder to justify the sort of investments that a centralized entity will
have especially you know when it started up by by a very rich person they can issue the
coins themselves and BCH has done that and it's survived the you know all of the the
issues that have happened since 2017 up to 2022 and since 2022 it's been now two wonderful
years of forward-looking progression as you say John it's it's been well it's been planned
and orchestrated to be like that it wasn't by an accident and it for me it sets us up
it sets BCH up for for the best year best year yep there's a lot of foundations that
have been laid down and it's just for me the critical part is moving that forward getting
the people actually using the tools that we've got out there because I think today it really
is the case there are a lot of tools there's a lot of fun to be had within the ecosystem
and a lot of a lot of interesting things to be to be doing there that can justify then
the next wave of investment but before we get like sidetracked onto that I would like
for you know for everyone that listens to this to understand a little bit about you
guys so General Protocols is one of the most important enterprises in BCH today BCH Bull
one of their products has by far the highest total of value locked than any other DeFi
platform or tool in the BCH ecosystem so they're very important and anyone who's anyone in
Bitcoin Cash has either used or at least heard of your products and services but the idea
of this Finnish and Friends is also to to reach out and make sure that the new people
also understand like not only what the services are what they offer but who are the people
behind them so that's what I'd love to know now and I'm sure that many in BCH probably
aren't aware of the people behind BCH Bull and General Protocols so yeah who are you
guys what's your vision and mission that you bring to Bitcoin Cash?
Man I wish we had Jonathan here because he always gives like a rousing you know like
a war speech for this kind of thing but I'll do a little bit for my part I'd say all of
us see the future of what's possible and what we want to achieve with Bitcoin Cash with
permissionless money for the world and we've seen it for a long time and we've seen a lot
of tribulations and as Jim who's on here right now just said it's a trial by fire we've
all kind of been through that but you know everybody's still here all the the people
that are working hard on it are still here through a lot of a lot of hard times good
times also but hard times and we just want to see that possibility realized of what it
means to have a global money for the world that's separated from the state right that
that's to the greatest degree possible independent and not subject to I don't know something
like the the Fiat tyranny you know the the the fact that the government of the place
that you live can just inflate your money away and they can decide if if you actually
own your money or not they can make decisions about that you can just suddenly not be in
possession of the money that you thought you were in possession of and so forth so we'd
like to really see that realized and we think it's necessary as a as a counterbalance to
a lot of the insanity that's just keeps ramping up day by day yeah so we're here to to see
that realized to see the vision of Bitcoin realized permissionless money for the world
great thank you then I assume you name by your side and you haven't got anything to
add to that John's ticked all the boxes there from your perspective yeah and I think I think
it's important to know that it's not enough to just know what you want it is also important
to make sure that what you want aligns with what's you know the best and the most efficient
for yourself and other people so you know we want we want a lot of things we want permissionless
we want privacy we you know we want the money to be free and independent among other things
but it's not very useful if you preserve all those characteristics and the money that you
got is just not it just doesn't work very well and it could be one of very one of many
reasons it's not flexible enough it's not liquid enough it's not adopted in enough different
use cases and things like that and it's not you know you got you got what some of what
you want but then you know what you want turns turns out to be not very useful then it compromises
your original vision so not only do we need to know what we want we also need to work
hard to man that's something that I think really sets Bitcoin Cash apart and for people
who are coming from the outside they won't be able to see it at all but anybody who can
see what's going on in Bitcoin Cash understands that it's really a kind of practical network
it's not the do things that are only idealistic it's not do things that are only going to
make a quick buck it's do the things that are going to make this be solid survive for
a long time be popular be useful actually be used etc like you know it's a balance
of all the things to be successful you can't just do one thing well you got to do all the
things well yeah the pragmatic Bitcoin I like this and this is something what keeps me attracted
very much to the BCH community so sometimes I'm writing on Telegram and I understand we've
written form the tone is maybe lost sometimes when I challenge certain aspects or ask certain
questions to understand about where we're up with certain things but such as privacy
so privacy is an incredibly important part is BCH the number one in privacy no does that
mean it's not the number one coin no it is the number one money out there because it
takes this practical approach and it has you know all the different areas of what's important
in mind and the community as a whole is then dedicating the resources where it thinks is
going to lead to exactly what you're talking about that that best compromise at the moment
because you know if you have if you have one feature that's absolutely the best and stand
out and you know the best in its class in all of cryptocurrencies but it's not used
by anyone or it has some other deficiencies such as it can't scale or you can't have smart
contracts whatever then it doesn't matter and it's irrelevant and I think this very
pragmatic approach is why I'm as convinced today or actually more convinced today than
ever and that's being honest because we've had a rough couple of years more convinced
today than ever that Bitcoin Cash is the most likely by far of all the coins out there to
become a world-used mass-used cryptocurrency and absolutely delving into others yeah sorry
oh yeah no sorry sorry I was just gonna say that Union was saying imagine a username we
just calling me name has a has you know have to be practical we have to actually make sure
that we do the right things and we focus on the right things we can't just be all totally
idealistic about it but at the same time all those things that you said are really possible
with Bitcoin Cash because it does have a clear vision right that vision is there and it's
solid and it's shocking how much of crypto I don't want to say percents but 99 plus maybe
people and coins and so forth really don't have a clear vision or at least not one that
they can say publicly and I love that about Bitcoin Cash that we know where we're going
we know what we want to achieve and that we're gonna be practical about getting there it's
not magic there's a lot of hard work that goes into it but uh but we're gonna get there
you make me laugh there because let's face it for 99.9 percent of the coins reason why
people in it is for one reason only money getting other people's money and is
your in a zero subs game and that's also why you know of course everyone here wants to
be making profit and anyone that says different is lying but the reason why we all stick around
is because there's something much grander than just making a cheap buck and certainly
not making a cheap buck or selling a pretty stone to some other fool so yeah great so
thank you for that and it's a bit of understanding about who you guys are and I'd like to go
to talk about like one of your most popular product that you've released bch bull you
recently posted so it's back in November so I guess this is old numbers now but you
posted that bch bull had over 500 000 bch in total volume I mean this is an insane amount
of transactions since the uh since the app's been launched um yeah how would you explain
just you know is it sort of a high level summary so anyone that's listening can understand
how would you explain bch bull to someone that is new to the ecosystem uh and has no
experience in in what bch bull has to offer so there's a lot of ways to look at this but
uh the fundamental way that we came at it from the beginning which has changed somewhat
but the the fundamentals of what we came from is even people who really want to use cryptocurrency
because they understand the the fundamentals of it the value of it you know permissionless
money that it's money that you own and so forth um even people who understand that they
still face the problem of purchasing power volatility purchasing power just means okay
I've got all this crypto you know the number of hamburgers that I can buy with it changes
drastically on a day-to-day basis and uh because bitcoin cash is about being a practical calling
sorry just hot dogs sorry hot dogs my bad the number of big Costco hot dogs that you
can buy can change drastically from day to day right and um for people who have you know
disposable income that's okay but bitcoin cash is for everyone and so for someone who
doesn't have you know money that they can just throw out but they still want to use
it volatility is a is an ugly problem because sometimes it goes in your favor and all of
a sudden you've got a mountain of hot dogs and then the next day you're like you're
barely scraping by with the number of hot dogs so yes the original purpose was to provide
some way to solve this stability problem which is uh the purchasing power I can put money
into the any hedge the bch bull these contracts and you put money in and that money is worth
uh your bch is worth say like 100 hot dogs at the beginning and by the end of the contract
it's still worth 100 hot dogs even though you know one month has gone by or three months
have gone by and that can be you know us dollars seriously speaking us dollars euros gold silver
all of those different things you can get that stability in those and you get that together
with it being non-custodial and maintaining and using all those properties of bch so there's
a lot of solutions where you're like okay I want to have uh some kind of purchasing power
stability I want stability but to get it you've got to go to a custodian who's going to hold
your money and promise you bro that they're going to give it back which is a bank right
in one form or another or you have to go to some kind of service that makes some significant
compromises on well you know trust me in one way or another and so this goes to the greatest
degree you can to just say no it all works based on bitcoin cash based on smart contracts
it's as secure as the network itself and the stability is as secure as the network itself
so that's the the fundamental idea is to provide a stability solution for people so that they
can uh not have to worry about the volatility of of uh crypto prices that's the fundamental
and then from there that is joined with that is only possible to the degree that you marry
people who want stability and people who want to speculate because to get stability that
volatility has got to go somewhere so that volatility gets traded off to people who want
volatility who want more volatility and so that's the the genius of the design that uh
you name came up with is uh is just that pairing people together who want stability and want
volatility want more volatility
Thanks and how is that pairing going on like looking at it today you know you you started
off it's bch bull the marketing was pretty clear if you're aiming for the bulls within
bch so i guess you're getting a lot of a lot more um money on the on the long side of bch
uh you opened up then the sort of the meme site of bch bear which i thought was brilliant
to link to bch bull so you can get the bears in there but uh yeah today how is that pairing
a match have you got liquidity you know that you require from both sides or are you having
some some challenges there
yeah no it's a like you said before 500 000 bch of volume so that's something like 220
million usd average something like that it depends right on when you counted the price
of things um so it's a lot there's a lot going through there and it's not just one-sided
it can't be it doesn't work like that and it works like all you know very smart things
do it works on incentives as you know tons of bch bulls like you were saying which is
you know it's a bit of marketing just to say hey everybody who's in bch you've got this
thing available to you you surely should think about using it in one way or another and uh
these people come in maybe they do want to be long but as you want to be long as as more
people want to go on one side that side becomes more expensive and you know if everybody thinks
that's the way things are going to go then the people on the other side are in a great
position the people who think you know wait that may not be the best decision and they
can start to charge to be paired in those contracts right so if everybody wants to be
on one side and i'm on the other side i'm in a great position i can charge them as much
as i want and and so it balances itself out you know that's the incentives as as things
get out of balance people come in to start uh charging for those contracts and uh and
take the other side of things so it balances itself out naturally through incentives and
where you would see that normally is in things like interest rates that would be the rough
equivalent of things you know as people want to borrow and and are long on something the
interest rates will move up and down uh based on uh sentiment of whether uh that's a good
decision or a bad decision
I remember in 2022 at the bch conference in sink hits in nevis one of the comments if
i remember correctly from roger there was um is just skepticism at that time of any hedge and of
i don't think bch bull was out there but it was certainly of any hedge in the contracts that were
going to be put in place um because of with any smart contract you know there's always the risk
uh and you know waiting to see how this actually runs you guys have been running now for is it
just under two years now um with bch bull and my question is was that fear was any of that fear
warranted like um or or because from what i've experienced bch bull has been incredibly stable
i've not had anyone um make any complaints about any any money that was was lost but you know is
is that the reality that you've experienced that has been an incredibly stable platform even with
huge price increases of volatility
okay we we spent we spent a lot of effort making sure hey can you hear me i'm sorry the audio cut
out for me for a second uh we we can hear you now yeah you hear me yeah i can hear you both
right okay i'm gonna assume that you can hear me the uh the yes things have been stable we worked
our asses off to make it safe and stable and to be secure and uh you know as i said to
not have these points of trust so you know that's half the point or huge part of the point is that
you don't have to really trust somebody very much to use these things there's the oracles
which is a significant issue but besides those uh you know it depends on the bch network and
the smart contract and we've worked uh very hard which was the subject of the the bliss presentation
that i gave last uh last yeah last year on uh you know contract security and in doing formal
validations of of contracts and so forth so yeah it's uh it's been secure it's been running fine
it's been smooth i'm not sure what the concerns were but um yeah no uh that's part of the the
the magic of choosing the right business to be in is that uh you choose one that's practical just
like everything with bch you don't choose one that's you know maybe your your favorite thing
that you would love to achieve 10 years from now you you look at all the things that are available
what people need today and you choose the one that's going to get you the most of everything you want
and that's what bch bull does right it goes in the direction that we want to go which is non-custodial
not having to have accounts you just work with you know yourself and your counterparty that's it
you're working with permissionless money you're working on smart contracts
uh nobody else has control of your money uh but it's a thing that people want to do which is
stability and speculation so you know it's kind of marrying the the issues that are in front of
you and finding the best way forward towards the the ultimate goal that you want to reach so yeah i
think we were pretty confident that things would work but it is a different matter to uh to think
things are going to work and then to actually see 200 million dollars of volume go through it is it
is a bit of a of a of a mind fuck to to see that go and of course we want to see it grow much more
and let me just go ahead and say um another part of the reason that we started general protocols
was just to be the you know the the one who breaks new ground because you know that's how people are
once you see somebody else do a thing and you're like wait a minute i could do that and that's what
we want we want more entrepreneurs to come in and look and be like wait i can use permissionless
money to start a business i can use permissionless money to you know run my business or to be part of
the things that i do and so yeah so i'm happy to see it going and i hope people are having their
eyes on it and thinking hey i'd like to do that too because we want you to do it as well it takes
a network and it takes a you know a community to to build things up and we're looking for
uh everybody to come in and we hope that we're encouraging and our success is encouraging others
to to jump in
that's actually a really good point to um to think about um another topic that is interesting to me
so you're saying about um you want to inspire people you know other people look at what you're
doing and uh enjoying him of that and inspiring entrepreneurs into the network which is incredibly
important that was the reason why uh back in 2023 uh set up the reddit hash tokens was for exactly
that purpose i mean that in mind so general protocols you guys are a sponsor of bch bliss
conference libiana um with uh jonathan being the main organizer behind the events so um is this
part of that vision of encouraging um builders to come together to the benefit of the ecosystem and
i'd love to understand a little bit about like what your thoughts are on that and how that can
actually improve um or make it more attractive for people in the ecosystem to start coming in
building and trying out their entrepreneurship
okay you should be able to speak jon did you hear that question
question okay the question was yes based on what you just said then about making it more attractive
for builders um you know because they're looking at what you guys are doing um general protocols
is also a sponsor of the bch this conference in libiana and what i understand greatly like that
is the idea behind it then and that's why you are sponsoring this conference um is for um you know
for for those for that purpose i just love to um to understand a little bit about yeah
where you see the benefits of that conference why you're sponsoring it
and what you've seen in in in 2024 and what you're what you're hoping for in 2025 and beyond
i'm gonna start that answer with a funny story the the origin of the bliss conference was
because general protocols team deciding hey it would be because we're fully remote right and it's
like hey we should you know maybe once a year or something get together and you know we have some
really serious things we have to figure out and work on beyond our daily stuff that we work on so
let's get together and and you know be in one place like physically so that we can have you
know high bandwidth discussions and talk and yell at each other and whatnot and so we started doing
the planning for that and then jonathan was like how about we tell other people that we're gonna
do it it's like okay sure other people can come if they want and he's like what if we rented a
room and it's like we're gonna rent the room for gp and that's it what if we had a little bit of
a presentation and i was like no okay stop and i said if you want to do a conference you can do
a conference but i don't have the bandwidth for it and jonathan was like all right that went from
there for the long for the longest time i thought the room is gonna be kind of small and you know it
would take like a few people and things like that and then jada made the room a lot bigger like a
lot bigger jonathan really man when that guy when he picks something up and he's like i'm gonna do
this it happens so uh he's done it and of course it's not only him but that's the that's the seed
of it was just that and us wanting to have you know conversations with other people but then
when it actually got the organization man he handled up on it and uh and the thing happened
and so him and uh ryan and jeremy and other people working hard on it and making it happen and uh
it's beautiful yes so our sponsorship of it is uh basically us sponsoring jonathan
and the guys doing the thing you know a thousand x what i had thought they were going to do which
is amazing um so really all the credit there goes to jonathan and those guys for organizing
bliss that's not really gp at all except to the degree that you know jonathan has a platform to
stand on because of gp but no those guys are doing it to make it happen and yeah i hope more people
will come and they will see oh my god there's all this stuff going on with bch and uh maybe it's
something that i can build on also and on that point i'm not sure if you have seen mini satoshi's
if you look on twitter it's underscore mini satoshi he has this new site which uh shows you
know bch ecosystem all these things it's very fast it's very nice and and you can really get
a sense that oh my god there's a lot going on here so yeah it's all it's all it's all a a virtuous
circle right uh us being successful other people see that you're successful other people want to
come in and then you know it just goes up from there
um i think i couldn't agree more well also i can't remember if it was defined by jonathan or if it
was something i just in my head but the um the way to measure the success of such a conference
where it's about builders is one of the activities that happen over the next 12 months after that
conference like what new groups are forming and what new things are happening and so on and so
next 12 months after that conference like what new groups are formed and what corporations are there
is there anything i mean i can't remember i think this was from jonathan um but have you guys uh
from your side have you seen um the fruits that have come out of that conference in libiana in
may this year the last year the fruits that come out of it of course uh we were able to to show
people bch bull have people use it maybe gain a little confidence that that uh that it really is
solid those things happen those things are very hard to measure though um but from my perspective
right and this is one of those perspectives where those of us working on gp are also in it for the
the bigger goals of bitcoin cash and that means we're happy when other people are successful right
in in our uh ecosystem even if they may be like uh partial or or almost direct competitors we're
actually happy with that right we want to see the pie grow we want to see everything growing
so from that angle i've been incredibly happy after the conference it's been very successful
the number of people interested is getting is really it's kind of cliched but i can't keep up
with everything that's going on and i've said that for a long time but it's really getting to the
point that i actually have no idea who some people are who are doing important and interesting things
and um i think a big part of that came from you know of course everything that's going on in bch
but the people that came to bch and presented like yourself like match you uh they present and they
inspire other people other people jump in and that circle continues so yeah from that angle
it's been a great success i've seen so much going on more than i can keep up with by far
what i notice is other than one exception every every one of the people that were at bch bliss
that i'm in contact with is more passionate about bch today than ever um and i think that's for me
this i think there is more positivity in the community overall but i it's you know it's hard
it's hard to measure as you say and it's largely anecdotal um but i have talked on to it um and one
thing i'm absolutely convinced about is the reality that as much as we've got you know there's a lot
of people in the community that love um the engineers and love uh building and working very
much on themselves as well is that we're working in a social network and what we achieve together
um is infinitely more than the loan just thinking about general protocols i'm sure that each one of
you you know you're all gifted intelligent individuals but i doubt very much if if you
would have accomplished a fraction of what you've accomplished today uh without working together
and as i understand you guys also met a also a conference straight get together uh to do with
bch so uh it's really important um and i really hope to see more people as you say uh turn up to
bch bliss uh this i've got to get used to it this year it's 2025 damn it um yeah so the tickets go
on sale on the 15th as i understand and uh i would love to see as many people go there as possible
because um the the more builders the the more action the bigger the pie is as emergent said
you know with uh there's competition out there but it's not zero sums the more people that
attracted to the ecosystem everyone gets the benefit um there's also wicked fun three days of
awesome uh conference actions so uh tickets are on sale on 15th and i will be one of the first
people to get my ticket um there's also incentives right there's also the incentives people uh who
want to build who want to earn a profit who want to start a business who want to start some kind
of organization um getting in early is always an important thing and this is not talking about a
get rich quick scheme right this is talking about being an early mover in an industry is important
it's not the only thing but it's very important and if you play your cards well you can be extremely
successful by doing that and the later people come to it you know it's already going to be the
party's already started and you're not the center of the party anymore if you come to it late so
yeah there's an incentive for these builders in networks that are currently on fire to put it
bluntly um you know to to maybe think about if there's somewhere else that they could build
that would treat them better you know go somewhere that treats you well the network that works well
treats your users well treats you as a builder well um yeah builders should be paying attention
entrepreneurs yeah builders entrepreneurs or do you know what i would also say people with money
that want to team up with builders entrepreneurs everyone um i think you just put something on my
mind there you know about other networks burning to paraphrase and you know right now we've got
hijacking bitcoin is doing its rounds it's definitely opened up a lot of eyes from what i've seen
um in in people that were very pro the the bitcoin btc narrative and store of value um like what do
you think of the impact of of that is do you think that like do you think the people's eyes are being
um made open as i see that and do you think or how do you think the bch can best stand to profit
from those eyes being made wide open especially in considering the builders i wish we could
get jeremy in here because he's he loves to talk about this topic and he's very good at talking
about it but you know you get a party started you got to know what you're doing you got to make it
fun have it attractive make it work for people but you don't get out there and beg people the
people that come in and are successful the entrepreneurs that come in they're going to
make bank and they're going to make reputations you know generational reputations by i mean because
what we're really pushing is is bitcoin right is the original idea uh so as much as people think
it's now been around for a while it's been stunted right so it's still at the early phases and and
i'm not talking about price here right i'm talking i mean also maybe about price but i'm talking about
uh people who went through the dot com boom uh back in you know around 2000 they've seen this
where there's a an explosion of of stuff and it's all like 99 garbage but at the end of it
you got google you got amazon you got tencent you got bitey you got all of the this absolute
world-straddling giants that came out of it um and the same thing is going to happen with this
with uh with with world money so yeah it's still early um as far as uh entrepreneurs and builders
coming in sorry if i kind of sidestep your question there but no not at all it is great it's just yeah
for what i what i see of bch is and i love this cultural shift is happening is uh away from like
the sort of unfairness of the world and how it's treated to more like what's the future what's to
come um and i agree entirely see exactly like the dot com bubble um and you know the only thing that
concerns me about that particular example is the fact if you look at the top 10 or top 20 companies
during the dot com bud like i don't believe that any company um of the of those top 10 or top 20
exist today or existed well so uh um hopefully that's the position right now that's still
somewhat the position when right now right the the ones that look giant that might catch your eye if
you came in and looked at the market with no idea what's going on they're on fire and it's not really
visible necessarily until you get into it but uh they're on fire for a reason you know for very
fundamental reasons and uh you know there may be some echoes of the dot com boom where the ones
that that came out of it and and took over the world are not the ones who looked the flashiest
or the biggest uh during them in the middle of the boom yeah exactly and if you you know using
that example um you know there's pets.com there's barbecues.com um there was a lot of stuff that was
put onto websites and you know really attractive domains had huge amounts of value um but in
monetary value but but it wasn't serving actually or it wasn't leveraging the benefits of internet
and so they all went to zero every single one um and there were so many of them and this is why you
know using that analogy for me it's it's an obvious bet against uh bitcoin so theoretically
is it possible that bitcoin btc um keeps its value and and and becomes a really good store of
value yes it's possible right um and to paraphrase roger veer it's also like a stinky sock in this
you know could also become become the same store of value it's it could happen but it's very very
unlikely looking at all of the weight of evidence especially looking at any history and so anything
that doesn't actually have a utility doesn't doesn't like leverage the technology or tools
that it's using it will go towards it will head towards zero um it's just a matter of time which
is again why i'm so excited about bitcoin cash because the community uh and everything that its
whole ethos is about leveraging that utility as much as possible and increasingly adding to that
utility so it becomes even better um and over time and the best form of money that will ever exist or
has ever existed at the very least no definitely didn't side set the question love the answer
uh i see that time is cracking i'm really excited i guess lots of people are excited about uh xo so
in 2024 you teased a new wallet and software stack in xo and since then you've actually launched a
website so anyone can check that out xo.cash and this new stack is designed to enable developers
to create their own product through a much simpler process in a safe and secure way so
in a nutshell what is xo looking to solve
yep looking to solve two things one uh is the thing that we've always done which is
hey we understand what's necessary for us and for bitcoin cash to go from where we are to the next
level and to go to the next level we need all these things and then not only do you have to know it
you have to actually put it in people's hands and make it available to them it's not enough to just
say or to show or anything like that right you have to have to put it in people's hands so it's
two parts one is building uh all the tooling necessary to let apps and entrepreneurs have an
easy time of building apps and of course we're the first entrepreneur to get advantage of that
that's the advantage of a first mover um we're going to take advantage of that and we're building
this tooling so that it's inexpensive to make apps it's safer to make apps and uh yeah those are big
those are big things inexpensive and safer to make and then the other is the xo wallet which is
actually putting it in people's hands so there'll be the xo stack which is all of that tooling that
makes everything possible that's gonna take us to the next level and then the xo wallet which is
hey look here it is in your hands let's start using it today to do smart contracts finance
uh vault family wallets that are shared with your family and uh all kinds of loans or you know like
moria protocol which you were talking about all the things that you want to do you can do it easily
with this and safer than you can today and the nice thing that we have is we have the benefit of
hindsight we can look back and look at what happened in ethereum where it took off and had
off and had you know absolute dominance just completely took over with tooling the number of
people involved and so forth but they also made some big mistakes that are very hard to correct
after the fact and we can look at those and say you know let's do better than that so we're aiming
to do what consensus and others did for ethereum except learning from their mistakes and making it
even better wow that's exciting so inexpensive and safer to make apps inexpensive i understand
from this is easier people can produce more things right it's uh well well an analogy is good for
anybody who's in crypto an analogy would help who people who aren't won't really understand it but
if you're in crypto and you remember ethereum back in the day it was the the world computer and
i think i heard that some people still call it that i don't know but um it was a big no it was a small
pile of nerds working on things and it was all very technical extremely technical uh hard to work
with you had to pay people literally like annually million dollar salaries uh to to do things because
they were so rare so hard to find that such specialized knowledge that's not you know a sustainable
way to grow an ecosystem and of course the the ecosystem there developed over time and became
very sophisticated um so that whole process uh happened on eth in the same thing is going to
happen here but it's important to remember right you don't compare two things that are are not the
same right the the way ethereum started was extremely expensive extremely technical if you
didn't know what you were doing you were absolutely hopeless to really do anything there but today
it's easy and you know people can just copy paste start a thing up have a thing working um and so
that's the place that we're going to um with the addition of hopefully learning some lessons so that
we can have it just as easy for entrepreneurs to come in build their business and make use
of permissionless money for the world
yeah it sounds exactly what what the ecosystem needs and i'm really interested by this because
the tooling of utxo is notoriously more bare bones than ethereum or abm chains
um and this sounds like a nice important step towards getting parity uh for the builders on
those chains and it sounds very much that general protocols has consensus on on the eyes of becoming
that for the bch ecosystem which i guess many of us are very happy about um so just like looking
and thinking about the wallet side um so you mentioned it on a sort of a high level maybe
you could go in a bit deeper just about what exo wallet would offer the current wallets are deficient
like what is it how do we interact with those with those apps you mentioned about moria
just interested from a sort of uh john john needs to rejoin due to a twitter problem again
this is what's crazy about twitter so you think about twitter um it can handle millions of of
listeners and and you know and this has been done with elon musk and and donald trump there
was millions of people listening and that's an incredible feat but just handing a small
conversation with a couple of speakers that just cacks out every time so it's one of the miracles
of the world but john i'm not sure if you heard the question but um if i need to repeat it's just
about just going into a little more detail about your exo wallet oh you name you know you've been
actually quite uh you've been relatively quiet i'd love to hear more of your wonderful voice
which i somehow recognized you know but uh um uh i want to know what's with the exo wallet
what is it that you're really looking to offer that currently the you know we've got a lot of
wallets in the bch ecosystem there's a lot of competition there what benefits what's really
going to set it aside from all the other wallets that john mentioned in there about you know it's
using and tapping into that exo stacks being able to access those tools within the app like how does
that look like and everything surrounding that that's going to make this the wallet that people
are going to want to download and use uh so uh john is going to have a much more uh complete answer
and uh i would defer to him on that but uh if you ask me personally uh what do i care most like the
one thing i care most about exo uh is that uh we are going to have a much better trust model so
instead of right is as opposed to right now uh when people talk about defy and you see all over
the place all kinds of uh there are a lot of wallets out there but wallets all basically
are operate on the same principles as the uh as the grand daddy of them all uh meta mask
so if you look at how meta mask works it's it basically works on one principle um you go to a
website you trust the website the end um you know like okay do a certain to a certain degree like
if you are a dgen and if you are a dgen just looking to make bets and you know you have uh
you go you go to some way but not all the way in terms of uh in terms of immersing yourself
in permissionless money and you are willing to trust a lot of other things like dns and so forth
all the you know establishment infrastructure that could be fine to a certain degree and some other
and some other people in the bigger cash are you know following that model right now with uh you
know just bare bones and so forth and that is and that is fine uh but i think you know
personally i think uh we could do a lot we could do better than that and you know instead of trust
instead of uh trusting websites we could trust code or templates uh so as to speak in to get
better to get much better security and uh and also you know if you but that that is that is that is
getting a little bit technical um so basically so basically uh so basically scaling that trust to
a lot of different providers you are not locked into one website in one place and uh you don't
have to make the compromise that okay you either uh you are either locked to trusting one uh web
one website in one place uh by one person who's signing it because you're scared uh versus you
just go freefall and go all the go to all the places and then you get scammed and defrauded um
i think uh our vision is that you don't have to make that choice and you can have a smoothish
response uh experience in all the places with reasonable security and uh that is uh that is
not an easy task and that is what we're setting what we're setting our eyes on right now and so
uh john would be able to give a more complete vision as well as uh jim who is also here as a speaker
yeah yeah i'm back sorry about that jim did you have something you wanted to say did you want to
jump in no no i think uh you kind of on file a minute so i was gonna let you like handle that one
all right so the the guys doing the real work are are being quiet here but let me talk then i guess
so that trust model that you named talked about that may sound like something technical or uh
wonkish or whatever but uh think about it this way so bitcoin cash and general protocols have our eye
on the prize which is right it's not some fuzzy thing it's not some kind of uh just get rich quick
thing this is we're talking about eight billion people we literally want everyone in the world
using it right it's not it's not some kind of uh turn of phrase we literally want everyone in the
world using it right it's not a turn of phrase we literally want every person using it who is
you know capable of of you know using a computer or a phone basically so we want eight billion
people using it of course that doesn't happen overnight but when you're thinking about something
like that you're thinking about a thing that is very different from what we have today and like
we've talked before you have to be practical you can't just teleport to there right you've got to
be there but one of the things is that when you're talking about eight billion people you're talking
about everybody and that's like your mom your dad your grandparents your brother your sister your
kids people who may not have any inclination whatsoever towards technical stuff right where
apps using a mobile phone a smartphone in the first place is you know like kind of a limit and
so this stuff has to be so easy to use and it has to be so bulletproof that it's very hard to screw
up and for anybody who's built systems who's uh you know built uh user facing stuff like websites
or whatever if you're really doing a good job it looks so easy and it feels simple and you don't
really have any worry about it you don't even think about it doing something at that level is
hard it's a lot of work and there's a ton of stuff going on under the hood of whatever it is you're
doing that makes it easy for you and so that's the exo stack is the first steps in that direction
where we're saying you want to deal with money you want to deal with apps that deal with money
that's loans speculation some kind of marketplaces sending and receiving saving putting your money
into a vault where you can only take it out after you've given approval and then a week later the
money can't come out for a week and so forth you know like a bank vault type thing all of those
kind of things that you can do are possible but to do them today requires trust in bad places place
that you don't want to put it which is on things like website domains or uh anyway the the way that
it works is not something that's safe and so this is our first step moving it that one step forward
to where it becomes safer and easier for people to use uh and for app developers to build things
where they don't have to know all those details and it's still going to be safe for them and
it's going to be easy for them to build i'm really excited by this this sounds exactly what's required
um yeah at the moment you know i've delved into the world of tokens for the first time and it's
not really my scene i wasn't there with bch uh smart bch um not so much anyway um but but now
i've sort of gone into this world a little bit um with uh with bitcoin cash and you know the the
tools are all there to have some fun today um but when using um wallet connect to to interact with
cauldron or um cash studio um cash token studio uh you have to sign the transaction and of course to
to i guess 99 of the people they're using it you've just got a load of information and of course
there's trust here uh because i yeah i signed the transaction pretty pretty uh good idea of what it's
intended to do um to to release the the tokens or to send the tokens or whatever um but but if i was
to try and show show this to my sister or my mom my grand or someone they're gonna be not just
slightly over challenged they're gonna look at that and just laugh and be like yeah no what is that
yeah i can give the audience an analogy that that's uh very direct and i think anybody who's uh
worked with a bank before can understand so you walk into a bank and there's this really uh slick
guy girl whoever they're you know working at the bank sits you down you're like i need a loan
for you know a thousand dollars and they're like sure no problem we can do that here's how it works
it's gonna be like this it's gonna be great it does what you need and you're like wait but i need
that and it's like it does that too okay you talk about it and you're like okay this is awesome this
is gonna be great this loan is exactly what i need and you know and it works in the way that
works for me and i'm gonna be able to pay it back everything's beautiful and the the bank guy slides
across the desk to you a piece of paper and it's just like all redacted or it's just gibberish it's
just complete nonsense and they're like trust me all that stuff we talked about is right here
you can't read it but trust me this is a very bad trust model right that's what uname was talking
about with the trust model that's exactly how those things work today with wallet connect
so that's not a good place to be right you you don't want to get a piece of paper that you
completely literally cannot read but that's the way the trust model is today so we've got to do
better than that clearly and that's a you know low-hanging fruit that we're working on with xo so
that you don't get that when the paper comes across the table to you you know it's something that
you can understand and you look at it and says i'm gonna make a contract for this much money with
this person and it lasts 30 days and you know these are the terms and you know those terms that
are written there are something that you can trust and i could get into why you can trust that
because that's really important why you can trust that but uh yeah does that analogy help like it
comes across the table you have no idea what it is that's a terrible trust model we got it's a
perfect analogy it's an it's a great analogy and so basically the way that i uh base my decision
when when signing that is i would never uh put too much bch or right of tokens that i'm willing to
lose because and what i'm thinking about is the person who whose wallet i'm using um he has got
set up a company and i'm also thinking well his his name is out there and his company um you know
he basically if he messes up with this his company's over and his whole livelihood's over so that's
what so it's it's trust-based of course and that trust only goes up to a certain amount so would i
stick you know my life savings on that no way you know zero chance this is where exactly help with
that and this is one of those things where what's going to be different with permissionless global
money is costs come down and that's just such a small thing but it's such a huge thing really in
reality the costs of things come down and the cost that comes down here is the cost of trust
because for you to trust that paper that you actually can't read a single word on it
you have to have a lot of trust in that bank or whoever it is that's sitting across the table from
you and that's more or less how things are today really you go to a bank and you get a contract and
shit you you better have a lawyer with you if you really want to understand what that contract says
and that's a very expensive trust model and it depends on some very large centralized actors
to develop that trust right that that they're going to keep going and have that lindy effect
that they're going to be here tomorrow that's a very costly thing and that costs society a lot
to need to depend on those big central actors and so with with permissionless money and these trust
models that you name was talking about the cost of that trust comes down dramatically where you
can get into a loan and not have to worry that much about it you don't even have to know who
the person across from the table is as long as you know what's on that contract so yeah the cost of
things will come down that's uh for the entrepreneurs right the the people who are entrepreneurs and they
see oh wait i can do the same thing that others are doing but i can do it 10x or 100x cheaper
huh there's something there yeah and to add to that so today you know we we sign we sign away a
lot of things when we buy when we buy stuff or just do anything on the internet or even off the
internet really so today uh you know if you go out and buy an iphone okay you sign a piece of paper
you sign a piece you sign several pieces of paper actually the terms are pretty long uh and you sign
that and then okay you say that okay i i will spend the time because iphones are expensive i
will spend the time and read all that and make sure no shenanigans are going on um so you do that
but you can't do that every time so you buy an iphone today you buy a computer tomorrow and then
you buy a graphics card the next day you keep signing papers and then eventually you know one
of them can slip in a clause that says oh by the way you are not just buying this graphics card
you are also signing away you know you're first born or something like that uh and then you're
screwed so um the way we deal with that today as a society is that okay then i will go to a court
and engage in a multi-year lawsuit with you uh that says you can't have me sign away my first board
that is expensive that is really expensive uh what if you know we you sign a when you sign away a
paper um the first time you can see that okay this thing is this thing follows some rules that says
okay i just i am buying this thing and i have some warranties and then the next time you sign
you can you can say that okay i'm signing the same time the same type of paper uh the price and the
product differs but it's also about some warranty and not about some other weird shit that i would
never expect it to that's an improvement um it brings the cost of everything down dramatically
especially trust so and i know you don't have time but i don't care i'm going to jump in before you
can stop me finish so another aspect of this for the entrepreneurs and people out there who are
thinking about building uh who see some potential here is again the the the costs coming down uh
like you name was talking about not only the cost of the trust but the cost of resolving uh conflicts
all of those kind of costs can come down and then another cost that that is going to be insane this
is going to change this sounds so stupid but it's going to change everything is that when you want
to uh like enter one of these loan contracts like i was using as an analogy with what you name is
talking about you've got a standardized maybe you've got a hundred different standardized
contracts but let's see you've got this one particular one that you think is a good one
that contract is super standardized anyone can use that you don't have to have a bank use that
if you use that contract with me you can use the same contract with a giant bank you can make the
same contract with you know somebody halfway around the world that you've never met before
you can make that contract because it's standardized you know exactly how it works
and this is you know standardization is uh just one of the the bread and butters of of modern
economy um you standardize things you make them extremely cheap everybody knows exactly how it
works uh now you don't you know all of those costs have come down uh the cost of fine yeah
yeah i could keep going on but all these costs keep dropping here and this is where you get into
the you know to disrupt the system because uh fiat is a very probably the most heavily entrenched
system and it's very well known that to to disrupt and compete with something that's well entrenched
you have to 10x you have to 100x you have to do a thousand x better than uh than they already
provide for people to really consider trying something else and these kind of cost cutting
is one of the big places where there's an advantage that centralized systems just cannot compete with
without guns basically but you know we'll see how things go but uh yeah so for people considering
getting into it these uh cost reductions are really a significant thing they're not uh they're not a
sideshow cost reductions not being a side thing if only one side of the bitcoin crew understood
that yes and it's really it's critical for mass adoption and as you say we've got a it's not just
about like being slightly better than fiat that that's not going to cut it so it has to be an
entirely new thing has been like notably better and more useful more practical easier all all
these things so that we can get those eight billion people using it um i've actually missed out it's
a really important thing fiendish shout out number one from bruno aria vpn dot net a bunch of self
licensed cypher punks at your service so thanks for that shout out there's a hundred thousand
fiendish uh sorry uh emerald well spent there um if you want to um have a fiendish shout out live
on there you just send a hundred thousand uh emeralds um to myself um but to come back to
that point i know we're over time um but it's it's really important i think to to think about
what actually trustless means so i hear this i've read this quite often in telegram um hey this is
trustless you know well why why is it trustless well it's because it's open source right but have
you actually read the open source no but i'm trusting that someone else has done it so well
and without any sense of irony there um and and of course like open source yes someone can read it
but the reason why when i'm looking for software for the mac for example i've got a mac now i'm a
windows guy historically but finding like certain apps um it's really difficult because i'm on uh
the windows version is not why it's normally just windows it's not on macs then i have to find some
obscure code that's on github um and you know it's open source does that mean it's trustless no of
course not i don't know i can't bet it i can't trust it um and so that's why it's really good
when you have this sort of you know mainstream products that are open source because there's a
lot of people that are looking into this but you're still trusting the people that know how to look
into that to do that and then to flag it when when some things there is odd so this idea of trustless
i i get the feeling people have a misunderstanding or misconception about this because in the end
nothing's really trustless you can just make it more more trustless and and what i love about the
idea behind xo is to standardize this to have this put in a format that everyone can understand
and that they know that this is like based on you know there's a contract model which is standardized
so if there's any changes to it well it's not going to fit anymore so i guess it wouldn't
even show up in your wallet which just is something that would be would be accepted by it
um and this is for me this is absolutely a critical next step or a stepping stone towards
where we want to go there's eight billion users of bitcoin cash so yeah this this is a great
proposition um and really looking forward to seeing some more news about this which is the
really important question i guess loads of people if not everyone on the call is waiting for is
when are we going to see xo stack release and the wallet is this something we can expect this year
this year or is this beyond 2025 oh what'd you say i couldn't hear you anyway i saw this thing
from matthew on no it's uh yeah it'll come when it comes no we're not gonna put put dates on things
because you know what i said about when you work with something that's very simple and very safe
and it's so easy to use either that's for a builder or an entrepreneur or for a user there's a lot
going on in the hood and that's something that we're working on right now is all those a lot of
details so yeah i'd prefer not to put a date on things at this point but uh we will be putting
out little bits and pieces as we go um and jim and myself jonathan uh devprit who's on here
we're all working on it uh every day harvey who's also in the audience there is is working on it
we're all working on this every day so uh we will be releasing some pieces to to let people
participate in it because it's all going to be open source as we release it right um so yeah we'll
be getting there over time but it's not something i want to put a date on fair enough understood so
you mentioned a couple people that's a devprit he's also a speaker james i haven't got the second
name there or augustus um and you mentioned someone else uh so these are also now uh are these uh are
you guys working with general protocols um are you contracting i'm just looking at the website i'm
not seeing your name so assume you're new to the team different yeah uh but for me i work under
yeah different names so uh yeah and i've been with gp for probably two years three years maybe
uh but yeah no i've worked on like a few different projects for the gp
yeah anybody who knows how much work jim has done in bch and for gp and hearing him say a few
different projects is uh yeah maybe well at least 225 it's definitely the biggest understatement of
2025 so far i can't really see the picture but is this the gym that's on the website or
or not okay yeah that'll be me yep yep all right okay then yeah then i do know yeah of course
you're you're very busy man then then now i've drawn the dots um yeah okay brilliant and uh
different then i i guess so that was james yeah yeah the picture the picture i have the picture
i have in my profile is not no it's not really me just a writer uh yeah i've been i've been i've
been working with gp from uh more than a year now i uh yeah mainly on bch bull uh the bch bull up
trying to implement some stuff to make it to work flawlessly uh connection monitors uh
uh some new features etc the the the early settlement uh functionality
uh yeah recently i also was representing the company on the bch argentina conference which
was great and i i i mean it's been an honor to to to to be working on gp with such amazing
people uh and colleagues and learning all the time learning from them because
they are extremely intelligent i respect them a lot yeah yeah awesome well it's glad to have so
many people working from general protocols on the call um and yeah the time's cracking on and we
need to wrap it up but my final question to to all of you uh will you be attending bch bliss
and if not i want a full understanding why not
some of us might i got my uh i got my ticket uh i applied to be a builder for the conference
so i got uh build it well because gp is sponsoring right so we have the the ticket
okay but yeah some of us some of us may be going um i don't want to say who all is gonna go but
yeah we'll see because there's a potentially another conference right there's there's a second
conference there's the one in uh australia there may be one in argentina again so wow there's so
many but listen everyone that's listening you know for those of you like me i've got a huge bet it
could break me um i've got a bet that we're gonna sell 150 seats and uh and i so i need i need
personally as many people to turn up there as possible otherwise i might have to sell my house
you know i think it's 100 euros something the bet is it's pretty big so uh no i want everyone
to go to bch bliss because it was an amazing conference and having so many great-minded
people um in one room in one space uh for a couple of days uh for me that was really such a great
experience a humbling experience and uh the and i'm convinced as well that you know having so
many people together in bch network it allows the the growth of the community allows for new
you know businesses new enterprises new new collections of people that come together and
push forward with their ideas um but it's also you know i want to see that that growth so last
last year uh i think it was 70 70 tickets were sold so if i'm keeping you honest um and uh and
this year i'd love to see a good doubling of that you know because i'm sure everyone that's seen
bch from last year and or spoke to anyone that went the the feedback was enormously positive and
which is why why it's being held again so uh love to see general protocols there in all of its glory
and force and um uh i hope to hope to see as many of the listeners too joining tickets should be
available it was a fantastic conference it was a fantastic conference i can't believe you've already
got so much just just because you're sponsoring it you know that's that's outrageous you know i
feel completely pushed out here so i need to speak to you where's my ticket 200 million volume and
you're in so you guys okay that's no problem i look at that doing that this afternoon just after t
time go for it get on it all right so the time is well past uh i think i have to make it an hour and
a quarter so we're well past an hour so it's the time for the end of phoenix and friends episode
seven so thank you so much uh john you name desperate and jim for coming and joining today
it was an absolute pleasure hope you enjoyed it too for all your listeners please make sure to
follow all of the speakers on twitter including their business handles at general protocol and
also bch underscore bull if you want to speculate your bch your head again hedge against gold btc
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the cash token address is in the description of our twitter profile and there's also a qr code in
the comments the next episode of phoenix and friends is at one o'clock central european time
next friday and it's featuring goblin cash's founder jacobs delta to talk about bch divine
perpetual options panoptic and goblin cash can we get that onto bch let's see just make sure to pop
some phoenix tokens into the jukebox and hit play to convert tokenized phoenix time into an entire
60 minutes i guess 60 minutes plus would be more accurate of the greatest bitcoin cash news and
updates with the sorry shit i've seen cheapies snuck in here um the second best news bitcoin
cash and updates with the most important players in the crypto scene have a fantastic 2025 all you
p2p cash monsters this was phoenix and friends and i wish you all a good morning a good day and good
night