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Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to all you green eyed fiends and welcome to

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Fiendish and Friends episode 4, Real Money, Real Tokens, Real Talk.

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Joining us for today's episode we have Kalin Kuliano, maintainer and developer of BCHnode,

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Fulcrum and Electron Cash, Kallisti, BCH proponent, active BTC Twitter, Whitbattler, I like that,

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and one of the developers behind Selene Wallet.

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And they will be covering some pretty exciting topics including the projects they are working

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on, May 2025 upgrade benefits, importance of privacy and the outlook of 2025.

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Before all of that, Fiendish and Friends are running two great giveaways today for a chance

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to grab a big stash of up to 60,000 Emerald and some Moria USD, which reminds me I'm going

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to take a screenshot right now for all you people that are already in the room.

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Oh shit.

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I pressed the wrong thing.

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There we go.

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All right.

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You win 5,000 Emeralds by being part of Fiendish and Friends during the snapshot.

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During this episode a screenshot of all participants will be taken, be in it to win it.

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30,000 Emeralds will be paid off by listening to Fiendish and Friends episode 4 for the

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entire live episode and double your Emerald reward by liking and retweeting this Fiendish

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and Friends space before the end of the show.

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This week in the news, it's only been seven days and there's so many topics to cover.

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BCH finally gets an ETF launch as part of the Bitwise 10 Crypto Index ETF.

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The fund consists of 10 of the best performing cryptocurrencies and marks the growing recognition

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of Bitcoin Cash with an approximate market cap of 12 billion.

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Maybe that's actually just gone up in the latest price increase as an important player

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in the space and now with yet another possibility for investors to get exposure to this future

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building asset class.

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Riften Labs, the wizards behind Cauldron Dex have released Moria USD, an asset backed stablecoin

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which uses BCH as collateral.

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It already has over $12,000 total value locked on Cauldron, putting it in pole position on

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the BCH token leaderboard.

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Learn more about Moria USD at moria.money or join the recently launched Telegram group

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Cauldron Dex.

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One MUSD will be sent out to each of the first 30 live listeners of this episode who post

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their cash token aware address in the space's comments.

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So do that right now if you want to get your hands on some Moria.

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Fiendish Token's price has risen 5% over the week with $4,000 of volume over the past 30

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days, offering a current APY of around 3% on Cauldron Dex.

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As a little reminder, the Fiendish Token is an integral part of the Fiendish and Friends

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ecosystem that supercharges community growth through social games, exclusive access to

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goodies and services, and can be traded for either BCH or the most important asset of

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all time.

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One Fiendish is backed by a minimum of one minute of Fiendish services, consultation,

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expertise and fun.

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The BCH Cash Node has released version 28 which implements the upcoming May 2025 network

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upgrade, including two consensus change proposals, Chip 2021-5 VM Limits and Chip 2024-07 Big

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Int, with both chips designed to improve the performance and functionality of the Bitcoin

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Cash network.

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BCH added to basic swap decks, enabling cross-chain atomic swaps, with the highlight being Bitcoin

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Cash to Monero, in a fully non-custodial and decentralized setup.

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Monero has world-class privacy, which has led to it being delisted from most exchanges.

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This collaboration between the two chains offers more use cases for both sides, where

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both coins and communities stand to benefit.

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BCH Bull, a decentralized and non-custodial leverage trading and hedging platform, charges

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ahead with $265 million in total volume.

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By providing permissionless on-chain contracts where you can lock up the value of your BCH

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to gold, silver, USD and many others, or go long with up to 7.77x leverage with no counterparty

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risk, BCH Bull has established itself as the pioneering application in the DeFi space on

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a Layer 1 UTXO blockchain.

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Recent news, Tornado Cash won a key court decision in the United States Court of Appeals

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for the Fifth Circuit.

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The court decided that it fell outside of the scope of the law, as smart contracts are

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incapable of being owned, a prerequisite of the law, giving a big boon to privacy advocates

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and further signs that the US's cold crypto attitude is thawing and is moving towards

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a more crypto and privacy friendly stance.

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As I'm sure everyone in the community is aware, BCH price has exploded over the past week,

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breaking past the $600 barrier and gaining on its ratio against its bigger, older and

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slower brother BTC, which finally broke through the important $100,000 barrier.

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This price explosion coincided with the final news of the day.

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Gary Gensler, chair of the US Security and Exchange Commission's replacement, has been

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announced.

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Cryptocurrency advocate Paul Atkins will be taking over the role in January 2025, with

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Trump commenting on him being a proven leader for common sense regulation.

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With Gary out and Paul in, there are no reasons to suggest why this cryptocurrency ball run

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isn't going to continue well into 2025 and beyond.

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Stay up to date with all the latest BCH insights and news by following the Bitcoin Cash Foundation

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on Twitter.

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That was the news.

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Great.

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I see Kalin is there.

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Let's get you on.

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Invite to co-host.

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Good.

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So without any further ado, let's welcome Kalin Kulianu and Kalisti onto the mic.

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Hi guys, and welcome to Finnish and Friends.

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Kalin, get up here, bro.

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I don't know, but that's some pretty incredible news.

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I'm pretty excited as a US citizen myself to hear about all of the really pro crypto changes

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that are coming through.

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I know Trump was joking around at the Nashville conference that he was going to fire Gary

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Gensler, but I guess he's actually pulling through for that.

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So maybe if he's actually being for real, then maybe we'll also see Free Ross on day

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one actually come to fruition as well.

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Yeah, to be honest, I'm betting quite highly that if he's not released on day one, it will

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be quite soon.

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I think that there is a whole wave, I think in the very first year, at the very least,

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of positive energy towards cryptocurrency and cryptocurrency advocates and people that

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were dealing with voluntary trade such as Ross.

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So I think he's going to be free pretty soon, which is a great thing.

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Kalin, I see you've got the mic.

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Can you hear us?

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Can you hear me?

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Great to have you.

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It's like spitting out on me.

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It's not telling me who's talking, but it's fine.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, Twitter, I mean, it was worth 40 billion, I think, if I remember correctly, when Elon

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Musk bought it.

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And despite that huge amount of value, getting space is bug free has been a challenge before

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the buy and after.

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So yeah, it's notorious for wigging out.

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But glad you're there.

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Just before we go sort of deeper into all the topics that I'm not sure if you heard

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all the news, but there's so much that's going on in BCH, as we're aware.

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For everyone that's listening, maybe you could both just give a little bit of an introduction

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about who you are, what you're doing in the space.

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Okay, should I go first?

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Sure.

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All right.

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My name is Kalin Kulianu.

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I'm a developer for Bitcoin Cash.

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I mostly work on BCH and Bitcoin Cash node, and I also developed this middleware software

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called Fulcrum.

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And I also work on the Electron Cash wallet.

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I am Kalisti.

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I am the lead developer for the Saleem wallet.

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Also just general kind of BCH advocate.

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And like Zeyn just said, I'm out here with the Twitter troll.

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And so hopefully that's having some impact.

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I think it has.

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We love it.

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I mean, you say Twitter trolling, and I think that that underplays actually what you're

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doing because as I've called you a whip battler, you're going out there, you're being kind

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of cheeky, you're being kind of brave, and you're saying, hey, come on, attack me or

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attack BCH.

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Let's go through this.

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And being able to just sort of counterattack all of the stuff that's coming towards you

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with great skills.

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So I think you're doing a great job on the scene there and have quite a lot of respect

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from several communities in the crypto world.

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So yeah, I think the way that you're handling those conversations with your sort of poise

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and confidence, but without coming across as arrogant, to be honest, I think that's

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the pinnacle right there of Bitcoin Cash community.

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Well, you know, those are really nice words.

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I appreciate that, man, because it gets kind of exhausting sometimes, you know, but it's

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been like years of like, I guess, especially coming from the BTC people, like, just they're

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always just trying to poop on us like a lot.

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And it's really nice to see nowadays, really, that's not the case.

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Like there's just not much more to say.

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You know, how many times can you post, have fun staying poor in a price chart before it

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just like doesn't have any effect anymore when I can literally just go in, link to tweets

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that I made years ago and be like, yeah.

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So I already debunked this argument.

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So you could try again, I guess.

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Yeah, but it's true.

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I mean, you know, that is the first thing that they're coming back to.

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And I really love the responses that are given now, much less defensive.

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And the reality is, BCH is worth not very much compared to BTC is currently at 0.0062

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BTC.

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But that's risen tremendously recently.

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And if you look into the long term trend, it does seem to have bucked the trend here.

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And so I can personally say that I have converted all of my BTC now into BCH.

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You know, I saw it always at the hedge.

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But I now see, I made the decision actually holding BTC is too dangerous at this point.

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So let's see how that pans out.

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But I think the price talk is not really that interesting anymore, because it's not really

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the reality from what we're experiencing.

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And whoever's holding BCH and has bought BCH over the past three years now is looking pretty

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rosy.

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You know, I really wonder if hitting the 100,000 price target for BTC, if that's got some people

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thinking about, all right, we hit the goal.

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Like, what now?

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What else is out there?

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I wonder if any of those people are going to maybe take a look at BCH.

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I mean, I know at least one person in my local community, although he was already kind of

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a closet BCHer to begin with, but he switched his profile picture from red laser eyes to

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green glasses after 100k.

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So you know, maybe we'll start seeing more of that.

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I think we're going to see a lot more of that, to be honest, because if you look at the BTC

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community, from what I can see, it's 99% its numbers go up.

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The few developers that are still there, that I know of a few people that are sort of active,

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and I've heard actually from several that they have a plan to sell out at a certain

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price.

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But then what comes next?

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That's the question.

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And I think that as long as BCH keeps on making the strides that it's done, keeps with this

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positive community momentum going forward.

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And as we're seeing, there is a growth of businesses that are actually in the BCH space,

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especially now when thinking of Rifton Labs, it's another one that's, you know, of a similar

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sort of scope and size to Emergent Coding.

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Emergent Coding.

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Oh, I've got a...

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Not Emergent Coding.

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Who is it?

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BCH Bulls.

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Oh, General Protocols.

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I think of Emerging, yes.

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General Protocols!

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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General Protocols.

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And so we're seeing a lot of stuff that's going on, and I think as long as BCH stays

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on this trajectory, then there's a lot of reasons for people who are holding a lot of

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BTC to go, hang on a minute, you know, how much more legs have this got in this coin?

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You know, people are holding it purely because the numbers go up.

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And when that's not the case, the percentage relative to other coins are more attractive,

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more usable, have more utility, which of course BCH ticks all of those boxes.

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It is a high utility coin.

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It can be used as money and is used as money.

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And I think that there's a good chance that we'll see some money flowing from BTC to BCH.

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So we've got quite a few topics to jump into today.

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What I'd love to do is to think about the May 2025 upgrades.

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So we've got the big-inch virtual machines limits and arithmetic upgrade.

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And I'd love just to hear from both of you.

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What does this mean?

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You're both wallet developers.

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You both have an understanding of what this enables.

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Also, of course, with the node, Kalin, maybe we could start with you.

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What does this all mean?

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What does it bring to Bitcoin Cash and why are you excited about the May 2025 upgrade?

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Oh, man, where to start?

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It really is very exciting.

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Well, so I don't know if many people know this, but the original Bitcoin that Satoshi

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wrote, it didn't have any limits.

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It didn't even have arithmetic limits.

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You had big ins from the beginning.

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The dream of Satoshi was you can just do anything in a smart contract.

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Yeah, so we're going back to that a little bit, but with engineering it properly.

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The reason why the limits were added was because there were denial of service attacks.

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So anyway, maybe I should step back for a second.

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Yeah, so like-

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That's really interesting.

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That's great.

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Because basically all we're doing is bringing back this amazing idea that was, or it sort

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of highlights the Bitcoin when it came out, was really fantastic.

235
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It was really well engineered, really well thought out, but it was actually restricted

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to ensure that it was stable at that point, to ensure that it couldn't be attacked by,

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as you say, denial of service.

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And now we've got to the stage where we can do this in a safe way and go back to that

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amazing engineering thing.

240
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,680
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of like an emergency fix, like I think in 2010, when Gavin Andresen

241
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,120
started joining and developing, where he was asking Satoshi a bunch of questions, hey,

242
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isn't this exploitable?

243
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What do we do?

244
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:08,640
And then so they sort of emergency patched Bitcoin to have limits.

245
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Initially they reduced the integer size and then they went down to like 32-bit integers,

246
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for instance, and they did a bunch of other stuff.

247
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,840
But maybe I should take a step back and describe what, maybe for just more casual people, what

248
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,840
we're talking about.

249
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:28,360
When you're sending Bitcoin, you're basically telling the consensus layer to evaluate these

250
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,360
scripts.

251
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,240
They're called locking scripts and unlocking scripts.

252
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When you're sending money, you're sort of specifying, this is how this money is going

253
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to be unlocked.

254
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400
And then later on when someone spends it, they have to satisfy those conditions.

255
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,080
I mean, this is sort of a high level view.

256
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,160
So underneath it all, Bitcoin is using this sort of programming language, like a fourth

257
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leg language, like Bitcoin script.

258
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,120
And so that's how sort of just decisions are made about whether a transaction is valid

259
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or invalid.

260
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,760
And because it's a language, you can do smart contracts with it.

261
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,160
And so we've expanded, the language has been expanded, like the engine running the language

262
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:08,520
has been expanded to allow for more generous limits to what the smart contract can do in

263
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terms of execution costs.

264
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:15,080
Because before there was very constrained, like you could only have 201 opcodes and integers

265
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:21,160
or 64 bid, and you could only manipulate data that was up to 520 bytes long and stuff like

266
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this.

267
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,160
So this has been modified.

268
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:29,840
And the upgrade in May 2025, the contracts, you could write more sophisticated contracts

269
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,120
on Bitcoin cash that don't have all of these limits that are so constrained.

270
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,400
And we did it in a smart way.

271
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,640
We engineered it so that you can't, like the worst case stuff you can do is better than

272
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,640
before.

273
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,760
And the good stuff, we sort of optimize it for the good stuff.

274
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,880
So it shouldn't be, you know, like basically, Satoshi, I think if he had time, he would

275
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have done something like this.

276
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,120
He just didn't have time to work on it.

277
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,760
So he just set up these limits really quickly in 2010 and never touched it after that.

278
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,280
So we sort of went back and finished his work, I guess.

279
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,280
Yeah.

280
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,960
I mean, and when you think about what he achieved in such a period of time, the fact that it

281
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,120
wasn't all complete makes a lot of sense, right?

282
00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:09,800
Because as I understand Bitcoin, the development started in 2008, 2009, it was released, you

283
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,800
know, a very short period of time to release something that was so earth shatteringly paradigm

284
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,920
shifting for the planet.

285
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,280
And the fact that, yeah, there was some stuff that needed to be sorted out and cleaned up

286
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:22,280
makes a lot of sense.

287
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,280
And it's pretty logical.

288
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:31,440
What I understand is that by, you know, increasing the numbers with big ints, it allows for high

289
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,180
precision arithmetic for smart contracts cryptography.

290
00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:40,560
So it would mean that we could have a sort of monero like privacy, an optional privacy

291
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,600
on BCH.

292
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:43,600
Is that correct?

293
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,280
And what are your thoughts on that?

294
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:46,280
I think that is correct.

295
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,360
Although I'm not like, I'm a really good developer, but I'm not like a super cryptographer.

296
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,240
But I understand that one of the things you need to do when you're doing cryptography

297
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,680
is work with extremely large integers and do basic operations on them.

298
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,440
So now that you can work with larger than 64 bit integers, you know, you can work with

299
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,280
two kilobyte integers or whatever.

300
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:09,760
Yeah, you should be able to do cryptographic ops like in the scripting language of Bitcoin.

301
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,120
And then I guess that theoretically means you can do privacy stuff.

302
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:16,440
I mean, you could do more advanced cryptography just within a smart contract.

303
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,720
But I don't know the details of that because I'm not really a cryptographer.

304
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,100
I'm more of just the C++ developer that knows that engineer stuff.

305
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,100
But I do understand that.

306
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:24,100
Just the C++ developer.

307
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:26,640
Yeah, I do understand that.

308
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,480
And you know, before I was actually worried about talking about this because of that.

309
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,240
But now that with the tornado, that cache thing where they said you can't just you can't

310
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,360
arrest people for writing officers.

311
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:34,960
So I'm a little more relaxed.

312
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,680
But as far as I understand it, I want to just confirm it that yes, we should be able to

313
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:43,520
get like privacy stuff on chain, like just natively in the contracts, you know, the contracts

314
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,520
would be huge, like you're going to have like these giant scripts.

315
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,600
But you know, it's not going to be as efficient as cache fusion.

316
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,960
But you should theoretically be able to do something like that on chain, like in a more

317
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,720
decentralized manner, just using cryptography tricks and

318
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,120
well, you know, to the point about the massive scripts, right?

319
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:06,040
I mean, there are still more VM improvements that are in the pipeline, especially Jason

320
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:12,520
Dresner, who is well known as one of the pioneers of the cash tokens chip, as well as this upcoming

321
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,360
VM limits begins chip.

322
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:21,320
He's now going to be working on being able to add loops to the script, as well as a way

323
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:26,360
to define functions within script using a proposed op eval.

324
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:31,520
So that might be able to help make those scripts a lot more efficient.

325
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:32,520
And we can implement.

326
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,520
Yeah, but it's weird.

327
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,120
It's like a cache 22 there.

328
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,880
Because actually, if you have a giant script, you're actually credited more execution time,

329
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,600
because the execution time you're given to execute is like based on the size of the input.

330
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,300
So it's sort of a cache 22.

331
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:49,580
So yeah, if you have, you know, because what happens is if you have something like loops

332
00:19:49,580 --> 00:19:53,720
and you have eval, like some of this stuff might end up paradoxically, it makes just

333
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,720
the script more compact.

334
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,560
It's like a compression, because, you know, if you can loop, you just jump back, you don't

335
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,200
have to like copy paste, you don't have to enroll the loop.

336
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,160
So it's a paradox there.

337
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,160
It's weird, right?

338
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,760
It's like, yeah, if you have these higher level language constructs, just the way the

339
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,560
whole the whole costing of the VM works, it's based on bite size.

340
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,440
So it's like a paradox.

341
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,120
You're better off unrolling a loop, you know, if you want to do more expensive computation,

342
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,000
because then you get credited more time.

343
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:23,040
I guess we'll leave the opcode that lets you prefix more fake bytes, the script to buy that

344
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:24,360
execution time, because that way.

345
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,000
I guess you can add the bytes without actually adding them and then still pay the fee to

346
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,120
the miners so that you can buy that computation time.

347
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:34,280
So just all the stuff that's in the works right now, that builds on what we've done

348
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,680
now and hopefully we see it in the next year or two.

349
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:37,680
Right.

350
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,880
I mean, so my understanding with the one, the eval one is actually more interesting,

351
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,960
because then you can sort of just evaluate arbitrary data, which is kind of cool.

352
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,080
But the loop one, I don't think is going to help in terms of, you know, it's just a compression

353
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,080
loop is just a compression.

354
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,040
Like you don't, you know, rather than having like five kilobytes script, it might be two

355
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,640
kilobytes because you could loop.

356
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:55,640
I don't know.

357
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:56,640
Yeah.

358
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:57,640
Cool stuff is coming.

359
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:58,640
I agree.

360
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,640
Yeah.

361
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,120
But regardless, I'm just really excited for this upgrade because of really, it just adds

362
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,080
a whole lot of power to our script engine.

363
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,240
It really increases the possibilities of what we can do with it.

364
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,800
It makes existing use cases better through the efficiency that we get.

365
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,160
And then it does it all without really increasing the risk of say like the denial of service

366
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,400
vectors that you were talking about earlier.

367
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,400
The whole reason those limits were in place to begin with is to make sure that one huge

368
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,680
transaction that does all of this computation doesn't blow up the whole network.

369
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:26,680
Yeah.

370
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,000
And we characterize that.

371
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,000
We simulate it.

372
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,880
We figured out what the most expensive possible transaction is with current consensus rules.

373
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,160
And that's just one that does a lot of hashing ops because hashing ends up being expensive

374
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,540
just if you keep doing it.

375
00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:41,440
So we basically like, you know, we were very careful.

376
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,720
Like, you know, like the worst case thing is like half as expensive now.

377
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,720
The worst case thing you could most pathologically do, which would require minor like minor,

378
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,840
like the minor to minor pathological transaction.

379
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:53,840
Like that's half as expensive.

380
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,160
Like we constrain that by 50 percent.

381
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,240
And then we liberalize some of this, you know, just the normal stuff that people would want

382
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,240
to do.

383
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,040
Like we sort of what I'm trying to say is we understand we're doing like we simulated.

384
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,800
You know, there's like 10,000 different transactions we tried and like the worst case.

385
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,480
And yeah, I mean, like basically it's just I think Satoshi would have done this if he

386
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:10,680
could have just he didn't have time.

387
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,920
I mean, he was like he was juggling like 15 plays at once.

388
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,320
You know, it's an interesting thing you mentioned there because, you know, this is something

389
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,000
that I know that I've seen.

390
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,440
This is an argument from BTC so that, you know, they're used to ossification and not

391
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,440
making any changes.

392
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:33,360
And BCH has this schedule every year of, you know, basically doing a hard fork and potentially,

393
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,040
at the very least, and innovating with this.

394
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,960
But there's also, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people here that use BCH that love

395
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,120
BCH.

396
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,400
We're very happy to hear that.

397
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,600
That, you know, these these changes don't come about quickly.

398
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,800
There's a process with the chip process to make sure that this is incredibly well tested

399
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,080
beforehand before it's even, you know, signaled to go in, whereas then when it has approval

400
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,320
in November, it doesn't even get locked in until six months later.

401
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:09,000
So there's still plenty of time to be testing this and basically for everyone to get in

402
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:16,720
their chips in order and to make sure that everything's working as intended when it actually

403
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,560
goes live the following May.

404
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,000
So comforting to hear.

405
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,380
My question for you both.

406
00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:27,400
So I hear a lot there from a developer's perspective and it sounds really interesting.

407
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,320
But thinking bringing it back to the end user, what do you think this upgrade will allow?

408
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,440
What will the end user experience or could experience through this that is going to benefit

409
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,640
them that's going to make their life better or make the user interface or the user experience

410
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,520
of Bitcoin Cash better?

411
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,760
My intuition about it is and I'm not an expert on this because I'm so deep in the woods here

412
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,600
with work I do.

413
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,520
But so when the backend when the backend engine is more robust and more like offers more features

414
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,360
and more generous execution and what ends up happening is the tooling built on top of it.

415
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,240
Like there's this cash script system for writing contracts.

416
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,520
The tooling on top of it then just is freer to do stuff.

417
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,900
Right now the tooling is very constrained by the current VM limits.

418
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:14,800
It isn't very generous what you get for execution.

419
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,400
And so it's just like kind of discouraging.

420
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,600
If you're a developer working on a tooling, you have to always worry about this 201 opcode

421
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,040
thing and these meager push sizes.

422
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,440
I think what happens is if the background engine, if the fundamentals of it are just

423
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,080
solid and inspiring where it starts to liberate possibilities and then the tooling on top

424
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,420
of it gets better and then what ends up happening for the end user is just like better websites

425
00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:41,600
are built, better smart contracts, better DEXs, more interesting like smart contract

426
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,000
use cases for VCHRIs.

427
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,120
Sort of the end user ends up seeing this whole ecosystem start to bubble up and pop up because

428
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,280
the developer tools are really good and developers are inspired to build because the backend

429
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:52,280
engine is really good.

430
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,960
So I mean, there's all layers on top of each other, but I'm working in the core like sort

431
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:57,960
of in the woods.

432
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,960
So it's hard for me to answer.

433
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,240
I think Khaleesi is probably better at answering this question than I am.

434
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,920
But this is just sort of my intuition about it that if your fundamentals are good, then

435
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,720
just everything on top of it starts to be better because everyone's just inspired because

436
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,360
you just have a better execution engine.

437
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:11,360
You have more possibilities.

438
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:12,360
They are open to you.

439
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,800
Just you can realize more.

440
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:14,800
So yeah.

441
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,560
I mean, the number one possibility that I'm personally excited for is the potential for

442
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,040
the privacy tech that we can do on chain because like Khaleesi was saying earlier, we do need

443
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:33,480
to be able to operate on absolutely massive numbers with hundreds or thousands of digits.

444
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,400
So being able to potentially implement privacy tools on the transaction layer.

445
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,400
So like if I can just say it makes a lean wallet just generate a private transaction,

446
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,620
like a shielded transaction, maybe kind of like Zcash, I think that's like the number

447
00:25:48,620 --> 00:25:51,200
one thing that I'm looking forward to.

448
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,320
But there are other possibilities like more efficient like Dex contract type scripts,

449
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,000
like Cauldron will probably benefit from it.

450
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,800
And like the experimental JetX would probably benefit from it.

451
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,520
And so it's just one of those things that entices new developers into the ecosystem,

452
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,700
giving them better tools, which will allow them to make better end user products.

453
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,680
So this really is an update for the devs, right?

454
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,840
End users aren't really going to see the benefits from this until devs start playing with it.

455
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,560
Yeah, that's a really valid point.

456
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:27,920
And I've seen, you know, as a reminder to everyone out there, if you check out BCH Ortis,

457
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,040
he was doing some comparisons of the sort of length of script and, you know, as it was

458
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,840
before the upgrade, a very long piece of script after the upgrade, much more simple, much

459
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,380
easier to follow, much more efficient.

460
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:45,540
So that, you know, making it easier for developers and making it, you know, not just easier,

461
00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:50,400
but also increasing the capabilities is just going to unleash what's possible.

462
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,880
Java, I'm not sure how to pronounce the name.

463
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,880
I see your hands up.

464
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,880
You're welcome to speak.

465
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:06,600
Okay, maybe Java is not there anymore.

466
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:07,600
Yes.

467
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:15,840
So, yeah, so we mentioned that one of the things that it does or could enable is the privacy.

468
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,160
And this is something I understand.

469
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,400
So, Kalin, you mentioned about there that, yeah, there was a bit of concern, I understand,

470
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,760
from developers, I saw this from also from Tom Zander about, hey, we should be careful

471
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:32,360
about shouting about, you know, such privacy functionalities, because it might bring down

472
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,560
the gaze, you know, the powers that be on to BCH.

473
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,640
So, you know, it seems your position there changed a little bit based on the news about

474
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,640
the tornado cash.

475
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,960
You know, what do you think the risk, you know, how much risk do you see that with privacy,

476
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,280
optional privacy on Bitcoin Cash?

477
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,840
Yeah, I mean, so the thing is, I'm really still afraid to talk about it, to be honest,

478
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:58,480
but it was encouraging to see that the tornado cash people got sort of like the court precedent

479
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,480
was set.

480
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,240
But, you know, like, if I talk about it too much, and then like, you know, five years

481
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,320
or three years, Trump gets assassinated, doesn't get take office.

482
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,320
I don't know.

483
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,240
Like, yeah, I mean, that's what I hear.

484
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,560
People tell me that, you know, you can do it, you're gonna be able to do like super

485
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,360
private transactions because of cryptography magic.

486
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,560
That's what I hear, you know, I don't really know much about it.

487
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,560
That's my official position right now.

488
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,880
Okay, Khaleesi, what do you think?

489
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,360
I mean, okay, so I'm a very vibes based kind of person.

490
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:31,080
And my intuition is generally pretty good.

491
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,400
And I'm definitely feeling emboldened by the tornado cash news, and to some degree also

492
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,160
by Trump's promises to the crypto world.

493
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,200
And kind of seeing those things already start to come to fruition, I am definitely feeling

494
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,920
a lot better about the potential enforcement front.

495
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,640
I mean, yeah, we have plenty of instances in U.S. history where there has been government

496
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,640
overreach.

497
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,840
You've got the FBI having standoffs with people who are trying to assert their rights.

498
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,240
And you know, whether those people were in the right or not, it is still something that's

499
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,280
really scary.

500
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:10,720
And so, you know, as somebody who is developing in the crypto world, there's always that underlying

501
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,840
fear, like I'm basically fully doxed, right?

502
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,040
So, you know, the FBI could just knock on my door one day if I did something wrong or

503
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,760
that they didn't like.

504
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,240
And then we also have to look at other cases like, you know, Roger Veer or like Ross, you

505
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:32,240
know, Julian Assange, all of these other people who have stood up to big government and have,

506
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,360
you know, really eaten crap for it, right?

507
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,080
So, I mean, Roger is still in jail and his lawyers are trying to do their best to get

508
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,080
him out.

509
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,080
But we don't really know.

510
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,960
But on the other hand, if we don't do these things, if we aren't the pioneers to actually

511
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,920
take this into our own hands and make it a reality, who was it?

512
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Phil Zimmerman, who was able to get crypto tech outside of the U.S. by finding some loophole

513
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,240
and export laws, he like made a script that was small enough to append to an email signature.

514
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,320
So now RSA is like proliferated across the world kind of thing.

515
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,480
So it's like, you know, if we don't actually do that building, if we don't actually pioneer

516
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,840
this technology, they just win by default and we can't let that happen.

517
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,680
And to me personally, civil disobedience is one of the pillars of American society.

518
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,480
So if we're not taking those risks, then what are we?

519
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,120
Oh, yeah, man, I totally agree with you.

520
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,840
You got the right attitude about it.

521
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,840
Yeah, couldn't agree more.

522
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,840
Yeah, sorry, Khaled, do you want to answer that?

523
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:26,840
The other thing to worry about, I mean, maybe I'm just being too cautious.

524
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:34,160
And you're right, Khaleesi, like the way to do it is just not to care about the regulators.

525
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,880
And then by the time they show up, it's too late if it's too big with us.

526
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,680
You know, if they could right now, they'd wave a magic wand and make crypto disappear

527
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,280
maybe, but they can't because it would piss off so many people.

528
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,240
So that is true.

529
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,640
One thing I'm worried about is sort of the BTC, although they don't seem as threatening,

530
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,240
one thing that could happen is like, oh, Bitcoin Cash is building privacy stuff.

531
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,600
And then like they do all this FUD, like, oh, it's like Zcash, oh, it's like Monero.

532
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,600
And they do all this FUD.

533
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:58,600
What's wrong with Zcash and Monero?

534
00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:59,600
Like in actuality, nothing happened.

535
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,600
Come up with a technical group.

536
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,040
You know, Monero, for instance, like is banned on a lot of exchanges and it took a hit to

537
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,040
its price.

538
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,040
I mean, we can just not care about that.

539
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,040
You know, that's fair enough.

540
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,040
I don't know.

541
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,840
I sort of don't want to show up too much until we get closer to the date, but I don't know.

542
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:12,840
You're probably right.

543
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,280
We should just not give a crap and just be ourselves and just be free.

544
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,280
What I think is, I think you make a good point here and the BTC is they use everything they

545
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,720
can to try and squash BCH from what I've seen.

546
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,120
And I've got quite some evidence on this.

547
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,120
It's not just some conspiracy theory.

548
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,520
It was also when doing the conference in Tsikitsen, Davis, where there was, you know, looking

549
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,080
into making Bitcoin Cash legal currency there, there was quite a lot of shadowy movements

550
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,320
coming from the some prominent BTC people.

551
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,940
So that's definitely a valid concern.

552
00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:43,240
What I would say is, is that whenever it comes out, that will still be a concern.

553
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,880
If they want to hurt us, they can try.

554
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,000
So I'm not, I'm not really too worried about that.

555
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,400
But I'm thinking about the spooks, I don't know if anyone's seen this in the news, but

556
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:57,600
I read this today that the FBI has been warning citizens in America to stop sending text between

557
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Android and Apple devices because people, they can see now that the Chinese government

558
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,640
have been spying on this.

559
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:11,780
They're actually advising to use encrypted channels such as WhatsApp or Session even,

560
00:32:11,780 --> 00:32:17,040
so that, so that you know, we're not leaking out all this information to foreign governments.

561
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,400
So it's quite funny, you know, the FBI themselves are encouraging its citizens to use encrypted

562
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,400
tools.

563
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,480
You know, maybe, maybe that's because they know they've got the back doors into those

564
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,920
particular tools, could also be that.

565
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,440
But the official stance is, hey, encrypted is good.

566
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,360
We should be, we should be able to have conversations in a private manner.

567
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,680
And I, you know, I think what Kielissey said is absolutely a nail on the head.

568
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,080
If we can't talk about, you know, privacy being a right, and people should have the

569
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,000
right to be able to communicate privately, whether that's with money, finances, whether

570
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,480
it's just, you know, saying hello and whatever standard communication.

571
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,240
And that has got nothing to do with, you know, criminal energy where there's, where there's

572
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,120
a victim or helping or assisting that.

573
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,200
So and if we don't sort of be pioneers in that and be brave, and of course you have

574
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,040
to do some risk management there and don't do anything too silly that's going to get

575
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,120
you thrown in jail because that doesn't help anyone.

576
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:16,040
But I think, you know, optional privacy and talking about that and working on that, I

577
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,120
see the risks as being very, very limited.

578
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,200
And you know, just taking the tornado cash, for example, the reason why that this person

579
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,000
was arrested was because he was accepting money.

580
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,320
And this is where it gets murky when it's just the code itself.

581
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,120
This isn't the, this isn't what's illegal.

582
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,760
But it was, they used that, the fact that he was profiting of this, profiting of money

583
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,440
laundering.

584
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:41,800
And they, you know, everyone has to be careful.

585
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:48,280
But when it just comes to the code itself, I see no risks or very little risks, better

586
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,280
said in this.

587
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,680
But as we can see with the current mood with the legal system against tornado cash and

588
00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:00,280
the impact here is that we have less to worry about today than we did a couple of weeks

589
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,280
ago.

590
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,560
So I'm excited by this.

591
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,800
So I really think Bitcoin Cash already offers great privacy with cash fusion, but it's something

592
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,420
that we shouldn't sleep on.

593
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:14,840
With the use of AI and chain analysis, I'm pretty sure that most security mechanisms

594
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,960
today won't be good enough for five years or 10 years in the future.

595
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,400
And so making sure that we're equipped for that, I think is a nice move, is a good move.

596
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,160
So Khaleesi, I'm glad you've got that, got that bravery.

597
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,480
We can encourage the other people to be, you know, in the community to be brave, such as

598
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,760
Caroline and Tom and the rest.

599
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,920
Well, without being stupid, without taking unnecessary risk.

600
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,920
Well, you know, I've got also, you know, just just a couple of thoughts on that, too, because

601
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,960
on one hand, we got to look at the tornado cash dev.

602
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,240
And there's also another example of the samurai wallet devs on the BTC side also got arrested

603
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:53,760
for the same reason, because they were charging a fee to use their Whirlpool service.

604
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,760
Right.

605
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,600
So, for instance, I think if our cash fusion server providers were also, you know, getting

606
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,680
some of that as revenue or as fee, they might also be in legal trouble.

607
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,920
And then on top of that, we have to consider, well, privacy isn't just for individual people.

608
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,360
It's for businesses, too.

609
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:16,160
And as BCH being a very commerce focused chain, as well as a chain that's focused on individual

610
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,040
use, we have to consider that business privacy is actually paramount, right?

611
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,720
Corporate espionage is very real.

612
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:27,400
And so I don't necessarily want the general public to know how my business is spending

613
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,340
money, let alone do I want competing businesses to know how I'm spending my money, who that

614
00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:33,160
money is going to, et cetera.

615
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,040
And I'm sure that local, state and federal governments have use for their own privacy

616
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,040
as well.

617
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:45,040
And I would prefer that the government is fully audible and, you know, fully transparent.

618
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:51,000
But you know, does the Pentagon, for instance, want China to know where their military spending

619
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,000
is going?

620
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,120
Oh, yeah, you just secured this $2 billion contract to Lockheed Martin or something,

621
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,120
right?

622
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,120
Like, what are you developing?

623
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,360
It's like any bit of information that is revealed can impact your business negatively.

624
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,840
And especially when it's something very high stakes like warfare, right?

625
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,680
So I mean, that's just a really extreme example.

626
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,840
But I mean, even something more benign myself, you know, as a software company, right?

627
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,280
I might not want to reveal how my money is spent if I have like some kind of new up and

628
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,800
coming tech that I need to make some partnerships for.

629
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,960
Like, I don't want my competitors necessarily to be able to get that advantage ahead of

630
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,960
me.

631
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,340
And so that's where I see privacy as a huge benefit.

632
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:31,480
It's not just for individuals.

633
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,400
Yeah, couldn't agree more.

634
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:44,600
So, I mean, with all that, I just I just really feel like the risk of, you know, nefarious,

635
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,720
shadowy things happening for us developing this technology is lower as time goes on and

636
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:50,720
as it's more developed.

637
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:57,600
And as we I just was also just thinking about the fact that BCH has already got the ETFs.

638
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,560
We've been one of the the quote unquote big four that's always mentioned in the traditional

639
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,200
finance world all the time.

640
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,200
Right.

641
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,960
So BTC, Ethereum, BCH and Litecoin.

642
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:16,200
So with that, I just really feel like even if we did create these technologies, it's

643
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,080
like just the risk isn't really as palpable as time goes on.

644
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,960
You know, there was like the sabotage and St. Kitts and you know, there's there's other

645
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,600
stuff I just linked again.

646
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,080
And Roger, right.

647
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,920
Or I can look at Aaron Schwartz, you know, one of my personal heroes.

648
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,720
But, you know, they all of those people did other things to land them in hot water.

649
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,760
Now, whether Roger's tax evasion case is like legit or whatever, it doesn't it's kind of

650
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,960
besides the point here.

651
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:49,320
But the point being that it's not just one thing that was drawing aggro from from the

652
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,320
federal agencies.

653
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,320
Right.

654
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,960
So I think as long as we're approaching it in a benign way and the way that we really

655
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,520
have been, we're not going out here like, yeah, what's up, guys?

656
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,760
We're Monero and we're only used on the dark market.

657
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,760
Like, come buy our ghost guns, bro.

658
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:02,760
Come at me.

659
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:03,760
Right.

660
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:04,760
We're not doing that.

661
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,760
Right.

662
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,760
We actually want to use legitimate use cases on top of that.

663
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,760
Yeah.

664
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,800
I mean, so it'll be like plausible deniability with BCH because it's not like a first like

665
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,120
the privacy isn't like on chain like the way even Litecoin has like this MWeb stuff or

666
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,120
like Monero.

667
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,280
We know it's all private by default.

668
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,240
So like, yeah, it'll be like just, you know, if you want to do privacy, you can.

669
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:26,360
But like, it's not going to be it's not going to be overly advertised.

670
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,840
So which is good, because if you care about the mainstream finance douchebags doing ETFs,

671
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,400
then sort of that it's safe for them.

672
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,400
You know, I think I don't know.

673
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:35,400
I don't really know.

674
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,400
But that's what that feels like to me.

675
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,360
Yeah, I think you make a good point.

676
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,640
And this is where it is a huge difference.

677
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:51,400
Like Litecoin was also had a lot of troubles with once the privacy was in the Mimble was

678
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,240
turned on, Monero was delisted from most exchanges.

679
00:38:55,240 --> 00:39:01,880
So having always on privacy in that regard is definitely not the way forward.

680
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,460
I think especially, you know, one of the things I love about Bitcoin Cash is it's so easy

681
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:09,000
to account for all of the coins.

682
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,720
And that's, you know, Kylis, you mentioned earlier is about with the government, you

683
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,760
know, if we think about the future where Bitcoin Cash is used everywhere, having governments

684
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:24,320
being very completely transparent to their spending and at least I can't think of anything

685
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:25,320
better.

686
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:31,760
But then with an optional sort of really highly grade privacy for individual users, I think

687
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:32,760
is the way forward.

688
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,120
And as you say, not putting that bell on too hard about the things that can be used for

689
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,640
such a different Monero.

690
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,240
Just moving away a little bit, talking to like a slightly different topic.

691
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,840
You're both developers behind popular BCH wallets.

692
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,840
We've got Electron Cash, we've got Saleen.

693
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,480
I just would love to ask, you know, think of your opinion there.

694
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,720
What do you think is the current state of BCH user experience?

695
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:05,000
And how do your wallets sort of have the edge or, you know, what is it that they offer to

696
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,600
help with that experience?

697
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,640
I'd love to hear from you both there.

698
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,520
So maybe Kylis, I'd love to hear a little bit about Saleen.

699
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:19,600
What are you doing differently and how are you making that user experience the best possible?

700
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,680
So I guess I'll just start with the whole impetus behind Jeremy and I, when we developed

701
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,680
Saleen.

702
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,480
We both kind of had the idea at around the same time.

703
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,240
We were looking at the overall wallet ecosystem going like, man, it would be really great

704
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:38,960
if there was a wallet that was open source, super user friendly, and just like, you know,

705
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,120
had a good interface and had all the features that we actually want out of say like Electron

706
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,040
Cash, which I would say is one of the most fully featured wallets out there.

707
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,040
That's like the de facto power user wallet, I would say.

708
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,360
But back then, when we started the project, it was Bitcoin.com that was probably the most

709
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,240
popular user focused mobile wallet.

710
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:02,880
And Bitcoin.com being closed source and also sunsetting a lot of their services in that

711
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,840
time period, especially the BCH catering services.

712
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:12,200
We just saw that as like a big red flag as far as community longevity.

713
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,240
And we just decided, OK, well, let's just make that killer wallet that's got really

714
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,880
good UX, really good onboarding experience and is open source, which was really the killer

715
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,640
thing was that it's open source.

716
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,040
Anybody needs to be able to open up this wallet and know that we're not going to rug pull

717
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,040
you.

718
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,680
So I think the wallet ecosystem in general for BCH looks pretty good right now.

719
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,660
Like we've got five major wallets.

720
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:38,960
They all kind of fill a specific niche in the community, with Celine being probably

721
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,480
the best for newcomers and onboarding.

722
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,160
You've got Cashnize really leading the DeFi front.

723
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,920
Petaca does DeFi, but they're also going really hard on merchant adoption in the Philippines

724
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,920
with their point of sale software as well.

725
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,000
And they have a map as well that's linked to that payment software.

726
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,600
And we want to do something similar, too, but they're just doing a really great job

727
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,160
and we're going to probably integrate with them.

728
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,440
And then you've got Zapit focused on their reward token, although they are a multi-coin

729
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,440
wallet.

730
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,880
And then, which am I forgetting?

731
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:07,880
EC, right?

732
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,080
Power user wallet, right?

733
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,600
So I think everyone is really serving those.

734
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:18,200
Oh, sorry, Flowy as well is also like a user focus while he kind of just does stuff, I

735
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,200
guess.

736
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,040
I don't know if there's like a specific focus, but it's a decent wallet.

737
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,320
But yeah, I think the overall ecosystem is looking pretty healthy.

738
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,680
I think we've all taken a lot of notes on what does make a good user experience, because

739
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:36,920
now you can see Celine kind of pioneered the whole onboarding flow where your QR code is

740
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,920
displayed immediately.

741
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,640
You don't got to go through the whole like verify your seed phrase for your zero balance

742
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:42,640
wallet.

743
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:43,640
Like nobody cares about that.

744
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,200
If I'm trying to explain BCH to somebody in a bar in like two minutes flat, like Celine

745
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,200
is going to be my go-to.

746
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,940
Because other wallets are going to have me have to explain all of this other stuff before

747
00:42:51,940 --> 00:42:56,440
I can even get to the point, which is I want to send you a transaction instantly.

748
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:01,560
So now Flowy does that, Cache and Ize does that.

749
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,440
And so I just think that we're all just kind of learning from each other, which is also

750
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:06,440
really cool to see.

751
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,200
And one of my favorite things about BCH is the fact that we can both collaborate and

752
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,680
compete at the same time.

753
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,520
And yeah, I just think that there's a lot more to do definitely, especially with Celine.

754
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,760
We launched on the day that Cache tokens was integrated into the protocol officially, and

755
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,280
we still don't have Cache tokens support.

756
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,040
So that's actually next on the to-do list.

757
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,800
But it's just funny because that was last year's upgrade or was it the year before?

758
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:32,800
I don't remember.

759
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:33,800
It was 2023.

760
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:34,800
Yeah, 23 May.

761
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:35,800
Yeah, 23.

762
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:36,800
It was last year.

763
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,840
But it feels like several years ago because so much has happened since then.

764
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:48,720
But I'd love to see Celine supporting Cache tokens because this is a lot of fun right

765
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:49,720
now.

766
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:51,440
You can see the scene is exploding.

767
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,480
And now, of course, what's the reality of Cache tokens so far?

768
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,120
Like, this is amazing technology that enables all kinds of smart contracts on BCH.

769
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,560
What we're seeing is meme tokens mostly.

770
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,760
But still, it's generating a little bit of buzz there and it's growing.

771
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:06,920
So I would love to see that.

772
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,120
But yeah, thanks for your insights there, Khaleesi.

773
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:19,600
And for those listening, Celine Wallet is really my wallet of choice for payments because

774
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,240
it's quick, it's efficient.

775
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,880
I know the team, very trustworthy.

776
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,880
And I actually use...

777
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,520
Sorry, I like how you talk a little bit about Electron.

778
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,320
Electron Cache on the computer because it supports really advanced functionality and

779
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,240
it has Cache Fusion, of course.

780
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:39,760
So that's really enjoyable.

781
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,400
And I use Paytaka for the Cache token stuff because I think that's right now the full

782
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,860
fat wallet.

783
00:44:45,860 --> 00:44:49,360
It's got its flaws too for normal dumb payments, I would say.

784
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,080
I prefer Celine.

785
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,160
And this is amazing, right?

786
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,800
Because it really was the case that for the phone just a couple of years ago, it was really

787
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:57,800
Bitcoin.com.

788
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,800
That was it.

789
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,800
And now there's just so much choice and better alternatives.

790
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,160
So it's great to see.

791
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,480
So Kalin, what about yourself?

792
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,480
How do you see the state of the user experience?

793
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,520
And we've been thinking about Electron Cache and what's your edge there?

794
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,240
I mean, I'm just amazed at the level of the wallets now, just the quality.

795
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,840
Like Kalisti, for instance, has really good intuition about user experience and just high

796
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,000
quality flowing software.

797
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,000
And not only him.

798
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,440
I'm really humbled by just watching everybody's wallets, the wallets that are coming out now.

799
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,440
I just find them amazingly high quality and just easy to use for normal people and for

800
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,400
pro users alike.

801
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,800
I don't think we've ever been in this good a position as far as user experience and wallets

802
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:43,800
go.

803
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,580
And I've been in Bitcoin Cache since the beginning, since 2017.

804
00:45:46,580 --> 00:45:52,120
And that's always been one of the frustrations, going like in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, just

805
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,560
the wallet stuff.

806
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,400
And then of course, Bitcoin.com worked.

807
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:56,800
And that was the easy one to use.

808
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,680
And I guess in a sense, it's good that it's sort of stopping maintained because it forced

809
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:01,680
us to step up.

810
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:02,920
That's kind of the good thing.

811
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,840
But yeah, I mean, with Electron Cache, it's definitely just a power user wallet.

812
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,680
If you really just want to see the details of what's really going on behind the scene,

813
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,000
you would use Electron Cache on desktop.

814
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,320
I wouldn't recommend it for new users.

815
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,040
I would recommend Selene, definitely.

816
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,120
And if you're doing token smart contract stuff, maybe pay Taka because it's got the web integration.

817
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,000
Yeah, I mean, I'm really amazed.

818
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,760
I just I can't even believe how nice it is.

819
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,480
And it's starting to look as good as the Ethereum stuff for the cash token stuff like in the

820
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:28,480
web integration.

821
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,480
It's a dream, man.

822
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,480
I never thought it would be this good.

823
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,480
It's good to see.

824
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,440
Really, really, really.

825
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,840
Much praise to everybody in the ecosystem that's working on wallets.

826
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,280
It's good stuff.

827
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,800
It's moved on so quickly.

828
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:46,920
So we've wallet connect now so you can connect your pay Taka wallet, your Zapit wallet, also

829
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,000
cash and I's web wallet.

830
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,280
You can connect that to what's it called?

831
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:53,280
Cash Studio.

832
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,160
And you can go on and you can create your meme coins.

833
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,440
You can create your NFTs.

834
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,000
It's really easy.

835
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,200
You can go on to Cauldron Dex and you can connect via wallet connect and you can easily

836
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,200
trade BCH or your tokens.

837
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,280
And this is this sort of easy to use interface even with flip started now.

838
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,040
So with fund me, you can just connect that up using wallet connect as well.

839
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:23,920
It makes it just all so much easier and effortless to use that ecosystem.

840
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,720
And when I think about the size of BCH, how many people are in there?

841
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,400
The market cap relative to the big brother BTC.

842
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,800
And then I look at all of the wallets, all of the infrastructure that's being built and

843
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,000
has been built.

844
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,000
It's amazing.

845
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,720
There's a lot of dedicated and passionate people in this community that are working

846
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:47,720
very hard to make the best user experience of using this great currency.

847
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:52,640
You know, on wallet connect, I think we really have to give a huge shout out to Jim Hamill

848
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,440
because he's really doing this like I wouldn't know what to call it because when I say protocol

849
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,920
dev, I mean like BCHN and like the Bitcoin cash protocol.

850
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:02,920
Right.

851
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,920
But he's developing protocols on top of the protocol.

852
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,240
He's developing like payment protocols.

853
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,080
He's developing the wallet connect protocol.

854
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,920
These are things that are agnostic to all of the wallets that we can integrate to create

855
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:13,920
this kind of interoperability.

856
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,520
And I'm really excited for that.

857
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,200
Ever since he announced cash connect, which is formerly known as cash RPC, and we're starting

858
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,740
to see that built into the wallets like cash and I pay Taca and seeing the power there.

859
00:48:25,740 --> 00:48:29,200
Like fund me dot cash is really cool.

860
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,900
I didn't I didn't realize that you could just wallet connect and fund something that's so

861
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,680
much easier than flip starter actually like assuming that your wallet supports cash connect

862
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,480
or I guess it's wallet connect still.

863
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,000
But yeah, I don't know.

864
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,800
I just I just really wanted to give a shout out to Jim because he also helped us a lot

865
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,160
with Celine, especially very recently.

866
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:57,360
He integrated the cash stamp support where we can we can sweep private keys now.

867
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,360
And that was just huge.

868
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,340
And also he helped us with the payment protocol stuff, the the bit 70 payment protocol.

869
00:49:02,340 --> 00:49:06,680
So now we can use like bit pay invoices and the like.

870
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,960
So just I just wanted to give a shout out to him because he's just doing really great

871
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,520
behind the scenes work and doesn't get enough credit for it.

872
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,520
Yeah, great.

873
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,020
So massive shout out to Jim Hamill and you know, and still very active.

874
00:49:20,020 --> 00:49:22,760
So wallet connect is fantastic.

875
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,560
It's such an improvement for user experience, but it's not without its flaws.

876
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,920
It's still built on the sort of Ethereum one address mechanism, which means all of the

877
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,000
tokens will be and your BCH will be stored on one address when you interact with it.

878
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,040
Otherwise, it sort of it doesn't work.

879
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:43,400
And Jim has set up a cash connect telegram group where, you know, to work and keep everyone

880
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:50,120
updated on the work towards cash connect where it's, you know, looking at the yeah, not not

881
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:55,220
just a single address and more based more appropriate for the UTXO model.

882
00:49:55,220 --> 00:49:57,700
So yeah, good call out.

883
00:49:57,700 --> 00:49:59,400
And thank you, Jim, for all of your work.

884
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,400
You're such an asset.

885
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:11,160
So Kalin, I know one of the topics that interests you we discussed was the work done by core

886
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,360
developers on BTC regarding UTXO FastSync.

887
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,400
So maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

888
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:23,300
So what is FastSync and what is it about the topic where you think BCH can learn from the

889
00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:25,440
developers there over at core?

890
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,160
Oh, yeah, I was surprised.

891
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,560
I was looking at their code base recently.

892
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,960
I haven't haven't looked at it for a few months.

893
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:32,960
They have.

894
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:33,960
Yeah.

895
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:34,960
So what is FastSync?

896
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,720
I mean, I should I should take a step back.

897
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:42,680
So to immediately like process transactions, you basically have to know where the money

898
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:43,680
is like who has money.

899
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,200
I mean, you know, the blockchain is like a giant ledger conceptually.

900
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,000
So you need and that's called the UTXO set.

901
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,920
It's just the ledger of where all the coins are, where coins exist and where they are,

902
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,480
how to spend them.

903
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,840
So that's basically like to immediately just transact on the network.

904
00:50:58,840 --> 00:50:59,920
You need to know that.

905
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:05,240
And so what you normally do is you if you're syncing up a node, it just plays back history

906
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:06,460
from the beginning of time.

907
00:51:06,460 --> 00:51:08,080
And then it arrives at the current ledger.

908
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,560
And that's the current UTXO set, as it's called.

909
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,640
UTXO stands for unspent transaction output.

910
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,760
So that's the UTXO set.

911
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,120
And that's and that's sort of if you want to just like hit the network quickly, start

912
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,240
you know, if you want to just start mining right now, you don't really care about all

913
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:25,240
of the history.

914
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:26,240
You don't really care about playing back history.

915
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,040
You sort of just want to know what the current ledger is.

916
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:34,000
And that's sort of that's a challenge because sort of history doesn't really scale because

917
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,120
you know, if you want if you want to network, there's like 10,000 transactions a second

918
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,120
or whatever.

919
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,920
I mean, you can imagine some some people just want to hit the ground running.

920
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,880
They want to be doing in consensus and be transacting immediately.

921
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,360
And they don't necessarily want to download like, you know, the 16 terabyte blockchain.

922
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,800
I mean, there is a little bit of like truth to the argument about decentralization with

923
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,880
huge blockchains that core but the core sort of just exaggerated the whole thing.

924
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,640
You know, ideally, you'd want you'd want the option to be able to just like run run a validating

925
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,760
node that doesn't have all the history.

926
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:08,240
And so that's where like the UTXO commitments UTXO set downloading and sharing.

927
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:11,720
That's where the idea fits in where you want to just hit a hit the ground running with

928
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:12,720
the node.

929
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:16,160
Let's see one of you want to mine so you don't care about the whole history of everything.

930
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,840
You know, maybe you can validate the history in parallel in the background later.

931
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,480
You know, you want to transact now.

932
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,560
That's sort of where UTXO commitments come because because the UTXO set is much smaller

933
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:26,880
than the whole history of the blockchain.

934
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:27,880
Right.

935
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,360
I mean, coins are created and destroyed all the time.

936
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,680
You know, as you spend money like that creates a new entry in the ledger and then you spend

937
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,180
it and then that entry disappears.

938
00:52:37,180 --> 00:52:40,600
So you know, if you download the history, like you have that whole history of all the

939
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,920
states of all the ledger is like throughout time.

940
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,960
Whereas if you just want to get the immediate snapshot of today, you know, that's a much

941
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,160
smaller piece of data to download.

942
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,800
And so that's like the idea of UTXO commitments or UTXO fast sync is like, you know, you can

943
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,440
start a note up like and you just download the UTXO set, which, you know, right now it

944
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,040
maybe is five gigabytes as opposed to like the whole block chain, which is, you know,

945
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:06,000
on Bitcoin is like nine gigabytes on Bitcoin cash, like 300 or 400 gigabytes.

946
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,120
So you know, you can just start to hit the ground downloading, downloading like four

947
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,920
or five gigabytes right now these days is nothing.

948
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,920
It's like Google Fiber connection.

949
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,640
You know, you do it in like a couple of, you know, like whatever, like under a minute.

950
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:25,320
So actually 10 seconds if you're getting 100 megabit, but yeah, anyway, I mean gigabit.

951
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:26,320
So where was I?

952
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,400
Oh, I was surprised to see that Core is actually working on something like this, but not in

953
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,600
the way I'd like.

954
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,040
I think they're still sort of fascinated by the idea of everybody downloading the whole

955
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,720
blockchain from the beginning of time.

956
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:43,960
Because I think if they lose that as part of their narrative, then their argument for

957
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,000
not scaling disappears.

958
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,920
So they're still sort of married to the idea that everybody should be downloading the whole

959
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:50,920
blockchain.

960
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,720
But they did, they did some work where you can, you can like export a UTXO set to disk

961
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:58,380
and then you can load it up on another node.

962
00:53:58,380 --> 00:54:02,160
And then once it's loaded, that node goes back and starts downloading all the blocks

963
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:03,160
from the end time.

964
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:04,660
But in the meantime, it's actually able to transact.

965
00:54:04,660 --> 00:54:08,320
Like it's, you know, you can start mining right away or you can start validating transactions

966
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:09,320
right away.

967
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,800
And then like in the background, you'll be, I'm surprised that they did work on this.

968
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,720
And some of the engineering that did there was pretty good.

969
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,800
They're still not thinking about the problem correctly in my opinion.

970
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:25,240
But it's, yeah, I mean, so it's good to see that even core sort of wants nodes to be able

971
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,240
to hit the ground running quickly.

972
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,320
It just, they're not really thinking about the problem deeply enough about how, you know,

973
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,240
how to really do this.

974
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,320
You can tell that they don't really want to abandon the idea of a full history.

975
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,320
They can't, as you say.

976
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,320
They've put themselves in a catch-22.

977
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,440
Yeah, it's key to their narrative.

978
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,520
But they have to have nodes, like as many nodes as possible, holding the whole blockchain

979
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:47,520
on disk.

980
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,800
Because then they can't justify not being able to scale if they get rid of that.

981
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,800
So I don't know.

982
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:53,800
It's like, it's weird.

983
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,960
But yeah, so that's helpful because of course doing some of the work on that and some of

984
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,280
the stuff they came up with is very similar to what we're doing, which is good.

985
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:01,600
I mean, sort of like convergent evolution.

986
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,600
I never, like no one's ever looked at what they're doing until, you know, me maybe.

987
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:06,600
So I mean, it's good.

988
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,680
It's like the idea, it's like sort of confirming my own suspicions that we should be doing

989
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:10,680
this.

990
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,680
Yeah.

991
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,480
It was working, I mean that.

992
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,520
One of the more recent conversations that I've been having with some of the BTC people,

993
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,680
there was a post I made a week or two ago where I was just like, yep, there's basically

994
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:22,680
no arguments left.

995
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:23,680
Come at me.

996
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:30,920
And the two main arguments against BCH right now I think are still privacy and what you're

997
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,880
just saying, the UTXO commitment thing.

998
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,640
And, okay, what happens when we are filling 32 megabyte plus blocks?

999
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:42,520
What happens when we are filling, you know, 48, 64, one gigabyte blocks, right?

1000
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,280
How do you actually do the IBD, the initial block download?

1001
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,080
Well, you don't have to if we have UTX commitments.

1002
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,720
You could just do it on the background.

1003
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:53,880
I think it's a key requirement for us long-term.

1004
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,360
If you know, our vision is to be world money or to be much more scalable money, like to

1005
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,640
be ubiquitous money.

1006
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,520
So it's like a requirement, I think, as far as I see it.

1007
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:03,800
Like it's just a technical requirement.

1008
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,720
And I think it's very doable, very feasible.

1009
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:08,600
There's nothing holding us back on a technology front.

1010
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:14,040
We've got to sit down and decide how to do the UTXO commitments on chain so that their

1011
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:15,040
mind are validated.

1012
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,560
So you know that if you download a UTXO set from some random place or from some other

1013
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,080
nodes, you can validate it immediately, quickly, cheaply.

1014
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,360
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, like you said, I think it's a...

1015
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,560
If we reach the scale, like we really need it, I think.

1016
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:27,560
When?

1017
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:28,560
You know, Kalin...

1018
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:29,560
When we reach the scale.

1019
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,800
I actually do have a question for Kalin.

1020
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:39,120
Do you, like how much do you believe in the idea that we need to be able to run a node

1021
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,440
on like consumer level hardware, whether that's a Raspberry Pi or like refurbished Dell OptiPlex

1022
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:44,440
or something?

1023
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:50,360
Like what do you see the future of BCH in that regard?

1024
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:56,200
I think it's definitely democratizing the more you can do that.

1025
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,800
There is some truth to that argument that Core does, but I think they exaggerate it.

1026
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,240
Like they move the goalposts on it and they just sort of, they use that as a narrative

1027
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:04,720
to capture the whole chain.

1028
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:06,600
But there is truth.

1029
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,880
I mean, obviously if you could, you know, the more ubiquitous and decentralized something

1030
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,960
is in that regard, I think is good.

1031
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:17,520
But you know, you don't want to sacrifice like world adoption.

1032
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,520
You know, like you don't want it to just be like another stupid...

1033
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:26,680
You know, like, I mean, you don't want to screw it up, man.

1034
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:27,920
You know, it's a fine line.

1035
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,600
Like, you know, you don't want, not everybody needs to run the whole chain, like have the

1036
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:31,600
whole historical chain.

1037
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,680
Like, I definitely think that's true.

1038
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:38,640
But I definitely think it is democratizing the more accessible the whole chain is to

1039
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:39,640
everybody.

1040
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,320
Then you could just sort of go back and validate it just to make sure that nobody did anything

1041
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:44,320
quick crazy.

1042
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,240
But you know, this is a giant like social and technological experiment.

1043
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,160
I don't actually, I don't, let's say like we just keep using Bitcoin Cash for like another

1044
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:52,160
hundred years or something.

1045
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:57,440
I can't imagine people caring about like what transactions happened in 2017 or whatever.

1046
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,040
Like at some point...

1047
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,640
There will be some libraries.

1048
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,240
What I imagine is maybe it's 10, maybe it's 20, but there will be like some libraries

1049
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,960
and there'll be in universities or some museum where they have the entire blockchain.

1050
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,400
And it's also like as a point for basically people to just, as you say, just check and

1051
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,360
see like did anything like really funky happen.

1052
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:21,120
But it might be an interesting point for just seeing, you know, people always keep these

1053
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:22,160
sort of things, right?

1054
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,040
Someone will always just because it's a novelty.

1055
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:25,440
But you're absolutely right.

1056
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:30,280
You know, you can't be expecting that to be the standard.

1057
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:37,080
Even if people, even if the hard drives and storage was to grow really exponentially.

1058
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,880
I don't think, you know, at a certain point, the blockchain would just be just stupid from

1059
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:41,880
the beginning of time.

1060
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:42,880
It's going to be, you know, petabytes.

1061
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:43,880
What purpose does that serve?

1062
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,240
Yeah, and there's like diminishing value.

1063
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,560
Like, you know, we have cryptography.

1064
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,080
You can prove that's like a set is what it says it is.

1065
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:53,080
Right?

1066
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,840
You don't need to have a whole set necessarily.

1067
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,640
There's not there's a diminishing value to like transactions from like over 100 years

1068
00:58:58,640 --> 00:58:59,640
ago.

1069
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:00,640
Like who cares?

1070
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,760
Like, you know, you decide like 10 years ago is my cutoff for when I start to really care.

1071
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,680
And I trust that, you know, everything that's happened since then is pretty good.

1072
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,480
Even traditional finance banks don't keep records beyond seven years.

1073
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:12,480
I used to work at a bank.

1074
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:13,480
So I know that.

1075
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:14,480
Yeah, right.

1076
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,560
Because even to them, even for auditing or legal purposes, like it has no more value

1077
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:18,560
to them anymore.

1078
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,120
Like who cares about seven years ago?

1079
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:21,600
Legally doesn't matter anymore.

1080
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:22,880
So, you know, we're off the hook.

1081
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,800
So I mean, there's a fine line with that.

1082
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,480
Like you don't obviously if the blockchain is one byte and but and somehow we can magically

1083
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,000
transact the whole world can transact on one byte like that would be perfect.

1084
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,000
Right.

1085
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,080
I mean, you could fit the blockchain on your little smartwatch or whatever.

1086
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:39,680
You'd run it inside your microwave like the CPU or I mean, obviously the ideal is the

1087
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,980
tiniest blockchain possible.

1088
00:59:40,980 --> 00:59:44,400
But at the same time, you want the most volume on the chain and you want to have access to

1089
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:45,400
it.

1090
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,120
And so these two things like are, you know, the tension between two things and you don't

1091
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:52,560
set you don't draw the line arbitrarily like where everybody's excluded like just to keep

1092
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,840
the bankers and the big institutions in but everyone else out like that's just ridiculous.

1093
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,440
But there is a fine line with it and you just have to find the market decides these things.

1094
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,880
I think ultimately I think it should be I think like the task of like the core developers

1095
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,200
should be just to make the technology and then let the market decide and they're not

1096
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:08,200
doing that.

1097
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,040
I mean, they're sort of just, you know, obviously they're captured.

1098
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:11,040
So they're steering it.

1099
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,840
And what I want to do with BCHN at least or with BCH where I can is just offer the market

1100
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:21,120
the ability to decide, you know, if they want to 10 years of history but beyond that, they

1101
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:22,120
don't care.

1102
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,800
Maybe it takes commitments and just people stop serving up all blocks and maybe there'll

1103
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,400
be one or two historical nodes out there.

1104
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,120
Like you said, like libraries, Library of Congress, you know, you connect to that node

1105
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,240
and you can get from block zero.

1106
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:33,240
But no one else cares.

1107
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:34,760
You know, that's fine.

1108
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:40,760
You know, as long as as long as it doesn't eliminate any security, which it won't.

1109
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,200
You know, that's just I think you should just let the market decide.

1110
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,200
Don't be central planners.

1111
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:48,560
I just I've just noticed the time of coming up two times.

1112
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,560
So for any of those that are listening, I've done a snapshot now.

1113
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,480
So that's considered the end of the episode.

1114
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,880
Just like just to go on just for a little bit longer, just because what I'd love before

1115
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:03,200
before we close out, I'd love to hear what is the outlook for BCH, you know, thinking

1116
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:04,680
about all the developments that are happening.

1117
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,380
We've just got the MUSD, so a stablecoin launch and we've got Cauldron.

1118
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:11,220
We've got the updates in 2025.

1119
01:01:11,220 --> 01:01:13,500
So I want to hear from from each one of you.

1120
01:01:13,500 --> 01:01:14,780
What is the outlook of BCH?

1121
01:01:14,780 --> 01:01:16,460
How are you feeling about it?

1122
01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:20,520
And what are we expecting in the next year and beyond?

1123
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,440
And how do we get to the next academy we could start?

1124
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,440
I'm very, very optimistic.

1125
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,480
And this is going to be sort of esoteric and weird for me to say, but I think we're living

1126
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,480
in a historical period where we're saying no to like experts and sort of no to I don't

1127
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,480
know, like.

1128
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,320
So the whole way that BTC has been able to capture crypto is like, oh, the experts know

1129
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,100
what they're doing.

1130
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:45,840
And then sort of now we're sort of living through a period where we're like, you know,

1131
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:46,840
screw you experts.

1132
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:47,840
You guys screwed it up.

1133
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:53,120
Like people are just more about grassroots and democratization and like populism now.

1134
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,960
And I think BCH is like the populism Bitcoin.

1135
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,120
Like it's the one that actually is controlled by the people that are using it.

1136
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,120
I don't know.

1137
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,480
I think that we're sort of in a Zika shift right now that's going on in the world.

1138
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:04,480
I mean, we're seeing it in Europe.

1139
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:05,480
We're seeing it in the US.

1140
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,440
I mean, the way Trump was elected and just the whole platform that he ran on.

1141
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,400
And I don't know.

1142
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,920
You might be surprised that the narrative could just collapse for the powers that be.

1143
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,320
And then we'll have a whole different host of problems because if we could become more

1144
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,320
mainstream then you're going to get all these people coming in and who knows where things

1145
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:25,320
are going to go.

1146
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:26,320
But that's just the fun part.

1147
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:27,680
You know, it should be the people's coin.

1148
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:28,680
You know, it should be everybody's coin.

1149
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:29,680
It should be decentralized.

1150
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,720
It isn't up to one actor to decide.

1151
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:33,720
But I really am hopeful.

1152
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:34,720
It makes me really bullish.

1153
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,880
I think we've got it all going on, man.

1154
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:37,880
We've got scalability.

1155
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,840
We're going to have like smart contracts to compete with Ethereum at some point, if not

1156
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:43,880
already to a large extent.

1157
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,080
And it's just, you know, the sky's the limit.

1158
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,240
Like, I really am very bullish.

1159
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,240
And the price action has been very encouraging.

1160
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:51,240
So yeah.

1161
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:52,240
Yeah, there you go.

1162
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:57,320
So Kalen Kilianou is very optimistic about the future.

1163
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,640
And it's as I guys change.

1164
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,240
We can see that, you know, the change in US with certain politics, we can see that with

1165
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,320
the Bitcoin Cash community.

1166
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,280
And so thank you very much for your feedback.

1167
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:10,840
And I'm also feeling the same way.

1168
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:11,840
Incredibly bullish.

1169
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:12,840
Kylishti, let's hear from you.

1170
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:13,840
Your take.

1171
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:14,840
What's your outlook for BCH?

1172
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:20,000
So I think first off, really, I agree with Kalen on the whole zeitgeist change, just

1173
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:25,080
like the way that we think about things, the way that our politics are working right now.

1174
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,920
Just from my point of view, I feel like it shifted overnight with the Trump election.

1175
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,160
So I'm not necessarily a Trump supporter.

1176
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,240
Like I'm more of like a middle of the road kind of.

1177
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:37,240
I'm an anarchist.

1178
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,120
Let's just say it that way.

1179
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,960
But what I'm really seeing with the most recent US election does kind of lead me to feel like

1180
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:46,960
things are really bullish.

1181
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:51,960
I think a lot of people were really quiet about wanting to vote for Trump.

1182
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:57,320
But when I just look at my locality, there was not really any support for the Democrats.

1183
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:58,680
And I think there's a lot of reasons for that.

1184
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,960
And it's like Kalen was saying, it's part of the zeitgeist shift.

1185
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,040
I think we're really standing up to, quote unquote, the powers that be.

1186
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:11,040
We're really looking at, hey, we really want to be able to have free information and free

1187
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:12,040
exchange.

1188
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,040
We're sick of being locked down.

1189
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,320
We're sick of having people tell us how to think.

1190
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,760
It's like George Orwell wrote about this in 1984.

1191
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,160
And we're starting to see so much of that become reality.

1192
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:25,720
And then all of a sudden, we just see this total reversal.

1193
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:29,760
And that really, to me, felt like it happened overnight with Trump getting elected.

1194
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:36,120
And so politics aside, just from the BCH front, I think BCH by itself is doing really well.

1195
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:45,480
And I think that we are unburdened by the election results also.

1196
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,940
We are unburdened by what has been.

1197
01:04:47,940 --> 01:04:49,760
And I think the outlook is looking really good.

1198
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:55,760
I think BCH is going to be a really freaking crazy nuts year for BCH in a really positive

1199
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,760
way because we've been cooking on products.

1200
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,800
We've been clicking on protocol development for years now.

1201
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,400
We've been cooking on narrative shifting for years now.

1202
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:09,720
And we can see all of the cumulative effects of all of that happening right now in real

1203
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:10,720
time as we speak.

1204
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:15,120
You can go anywhere on Twitter, look at the BTC-BCH debate, look at the crypto versus

1205
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,280
everyone else debate.

1206
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:22,720
And what I see is no clear winner except for BCH if you're paying attention.

1207
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,720
Here, here.

1208
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:25,720
Bang on.

1209
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:26,720
Well said.

1210
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:27,720
All right.

1211
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,840
So this is probably the very last question.

1212
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,840
So I know you were both attendees of BCH Blitz 2024.

1213
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,200
We had a wicked time there.

1214
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:36,200
It was awesome.

1215
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,960
Will you both be getting tickets for BCH Blitz 2025 this May?

1216
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:40,960
Absolutely.

1217
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:41,960
Yeah.

1218
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:42,960
No doubt in my mind, man.

1219
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,360
It's like Ljubljana is an awesome city to visit.

1220
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,360
Everything about it was amazing.

1221
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:47,360
I highly recommend everybody go.

1222
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,360
It's just an amazing place to visit.

1223
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,040
And everybody was so awesome.

1224
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:53,040
It was so uplifting.

1225
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,040
Really, really, really.

1226
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,040
Even if you're just watching BCH and you don't feel like you're a giant member of the community,

1227
01:05:58,040 --> 01:05:59,040
just show up and you'll have fun.

1228
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,040
I guarantee you.

1229
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:06,520
Yeah, I fully intend on going again if I can.

1230
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,480
We're probably going to have to do another fundraiser for Celine to make that happen,

1231
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:10,640
but I want to make it happen.

1232
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,480
So it was a great experience.

1233
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:20,320
And honestly, I'm just so glad that Jonathan and Jeremy and everyone who had a hand in

1234
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,320
that made it happen because it was one of the best experiences of my life.

1235
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,720
I really needed it in terms of being engaged in the community, meeting these people that

1236
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,160
I work with every day online.

1237
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:31,880
It was a very blissful experience, really.

1238
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:32,880
It lived up to the name.

1239
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,880
And I absolutely would go again.

1240
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,880
It's fantastic.

1241
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:38,880
It really is.

1242
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,240
It makes such a massive difference actually meeting people in person.

1243
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,720
I know we have quite a few people who are anonymous in the community who don't see the

1244
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:45,720
value in that.

1245
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:51,200
But I think once you've experienced it yourself, there is huge value in it.

1246
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,160
And of course, then what comes out of that, these deeper relationships, it allows them

1247
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,160
much more productivity and cooperation with each other.

1248
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,360
So it allows, it's not just more fun.

1249
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,600
I think we've also got a lot more stuff done.

1250
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,840
So I really hope you can get there, Kylisthi.

1251
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,000
It'd be lovely to see you and Callan.

1252
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,280
I'm so super excited that we get to do the Escape Room too.

1253
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:16,200
So we've got BCHDF, the best of our devs, and unfortunately couldn't get us out of the

1254
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:17,200
Escape Room.

1255
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:18,480
We had to call for help multiple times.

1256
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:20,760
So next time we're going to do it.

1257
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:21,760
Yeah, next time.

1258
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:22,760
We'll get it this time.

1259
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:24,760
The cool thing about Bliss, man, is it's so awesome, man.

1260
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:25,760
Like, yeah, totally.

1261
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:26,760
Yeah, I don't want to take it.

1262
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:27,760
Yes.

1263
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:28,760
It was awesome.

1264
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,800
Hey, the hour is almost over now, Fiendish and friends.

1265
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,640
So thank you so much, Callan and Kylisthi, for joining us today.

1266
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:37,640
That was so much fun.

1267
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,800
And to be honest, it could have gone on for quite a bit longer.

1268
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:46,720
Make sure, for all you that are listening, go and follow them on Twitter at CKylianou

1269
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:50,320
and KZKylisthi.

1270
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,640
The Fiendish token will be given out to each of our guests.

1271
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:58,720
So Callan, Kylisthi, if you haven't done already, just pop your cash token address as a comment

1272
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,840
to the spaces, or you can send it in a private message.

1273
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:03,840
That's also OK.

1274
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,720
And I'll make sure that gets to you.

1275
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,120
If you enjoyed the show and want to show your appreciation, please feel free to drop some

1276
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,440
BCH or a Fiendish token into our wallet.

1277
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:15,880
The cash token address is in the description of our ex-profile, and there's also a QR code

1278
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:16,880
in the comments.

1279
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:21,520
Grab yourself an exclusive limited edition Fiendish and Friends NFT available for 0.05

1280
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:27,160
BCH at tapswatch.cash, or get a scorching 75% discount by just using three Fiendish tokens

1281
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:28,160
to get that.

1282
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:32,600
You can also reach out to us directly on X or over Telegram for more information.

1283
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:37,640
Fiendish and Friends episode five is at 1pm Central European time next Friday, and it's

1284
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:44,080
featuring Dagger and Halva from Rift and Labs to talk about Cauldron, Moria, magic and spells,

1285
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:45,240
and all things that glitter green.

1286
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:46,240
So that's pretty exciting.

1287
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,760
For all you fans that can't wait to listen, just make sure you pop that one Fiendish token

1288
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:54,560
into the jukebox and hit play, turning one tokenized minute of Fiendish time into an

1289
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:59,240
entire 60 minutes of the latest Bitcoin Cash news and updates.

1290
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,740
Fiendish token is available at CauldronSwap with links in the comments.

1291
01:09:02,740 --> 01:09:03,740
This was Fiendish and Friends.

1292
01:09:03,740 --> 01:09:08,560
I wish you all a great morning, a good day and a super night.

1293
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:09,560
Take care.

1294
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:24,560
Bye.