Hey everybody, Rich here at Leaving MAGA, leavingmaga
.org. Just want to thank all of you for your
support as always, and also for all of your engagement
in watching our leader videos, conversations
we have with people who are in our Leaving MAGA
community. We are joined today by Brian Batts
from the state of New Mexico. Brian, how you
doing? It's good to see you. Good to see you
as well. Good to talk to you again. Brian is
one of our leaders here in our Leaving MAGA community.
So let's just, Brian, get right into everything
here. What was it about the MAGA movement and
the Trump campaign that you found attractive
in the very beginning? Yeah, I think at the very
beginning, what was attracting... You know, I
was coming off the heels of the financial crisis
and it felt to me as if a lot of people that
had caused the problems around the financial
crisis were not facing any consequences. And
that made me upset and angry and pretty cynical,
if I'm honest, that, you know, I'm watching a
system that feels like, you know, the people
that are responsible. are not having to face
any of the consequences of their decisions. And
it felt like maybe, you know, kind of a bull
in a china shop might be what was needed. And
I think too, I guess actually that's probably
the main thrust of it, is just what felt to me
like unfairness. And this felt like a way to
kind of address that, to try to get some action
taken. And the conversation was, how did we go
from Obama to Trump? And I wrote a comment saying
that I think one of the explanations for how
we went from Obama to Trump was post -2008 financial
crisis fallout. And I feel like there are other
reasons as well. But for me... I was, just like
you, I was attracted to the outsider status.
I felt like Trump was somebody who had no, because
he had no military government or political experience,
that he was the right person for the job. And
I thought the two parties were the same. And
I felt like, let's just burn the whole system
down and then start anew. And this guy who came
on the scene. seemed like he was willing and
able to do that and and so i i am very much relating
to what you're saying because it was a lot of
what informed my decision to support him work
on the campaign and then just get deeper and
deeper into the community yeah and i think if
i can comment on that i think um i i've come
to realize a couple of things um in hindsight
uh that The idea of kind of burning the system
down and starting afresh truly just ignores the
massive amount of suffering that occurs if you
were to do something like that. And that was
one of the things that became more and more convicting
to me is that I started to see, I'm like, oh,
there's so many people that are impacted by him
and the decisions that he's making and the steps
that he's taking. Not in a good way. And while
people want to cheer about America first, the
problem is that it just completely ignores the
plight of a lot of our fellow citizens. So we
are in a commonwealth. We live in a commonwealth.
And so the decisions that we make can either
lead more towards the common good, the commonwealth,
or they can detract from that. And the more I
got in, the more I started to read and learn
and talk and listen. And the more I realized
that MAGA was the antithesis of that. It was,
it's incredibly, it's an incredibly selfish movement.
It's very focused on like underneath a lot of
it. It's like, it's a, it's a bit of, you know,
there's a lot of like revenge in there. There's
a lot of misplaced insecurity. uh because there
are now all these you know people and things
that are being propped up and say well that's
what you should be insecure about that's what
you should be scared about when that's not actually
the case at all and so it felt really misguided
and a lot of people were getting trampled in
the process are getting trampled in the process
so what what was life for you brian like trump
wins in 2016 You know, we're vindicated, we're
validated, we have taken on the world, we were
successful and victorious against the world.
What was being in MAGA like for you in your life
at the time? Yeah, I mean, at the time I was
up north. And so I was called like a red dot
in a blue ocean. So it was a little bit isolating.
But, you know, I think when you're in that mindset,
you're like, well, I'm standing up for what's
right. If people are against me, that's actually
a sign that I'm going in the right direction.
But I was in New York City for almost this whole
time. And it was trying to make sense of things
like how upset New Yorkers were at him. I just
didn't have any knowledge of his history. And
now that I know better, because I didn't grow
up in New York. I now understand why New Yorkers
just don't like him, generally speaking. And
so, you know, in my mind, I was doing a lot of
rationalization and trying to make sense of things
to have it fit with my own narrative. And it's
very easy, you know, at the time, my media sources
were at best really skewed and not... didn't
really have a whole lot of journalistic integrity
i'll put it that way um so i was neat i was well
not even knee deep neck deep in a lot of that
and it and honestly it just i was walking around
with a lot of cognitive dissonance where i was
like holding two completely additional views
at the exact same time and kind of didn't know
how to think critically to resolve those and
somehow felt okay to just not resolve them And
just go on that way. Yeah. So I was, let's see,
there's probably, probably three big ones. I
wasn't really a big, I wasn't a much of a Fox
news consumer, but getting into independent media.
With the idea of being that it's kind of like
outside the establishment, like that they're
going to have the truth, like they're going to
speak truthfully. It can be really, you know,
it can it can be it can create a silo. But the
probably the three that come to mind, the Daily
Wire, a site called Zero Hedge and and then Breitbart,
probably in that order. You know, Zero Hedge
actually started off. with a decent view into
the insides of Wall Street. And it was somewhat
legitimate. And then somewhere along the way,
I couldn't pinpoint what it was, it really turned.
And it was a bit of a propaganda machine. It
was instilling... a lot of cynicism and fear.
And then you, you know, you go, I went through
that long enough and I was like, you know, a
lot of the things that I'm reading here, like
they're just not, whatever they're kind of saying
is going to happen is not happening. And that
started to create a bit of a gap where I could
say, should I, is, is this, is this, is this
it? Is this right? Is this, are they actually
giving me the information that I would need to
be able to make a solid assessment of something?
And it was something that created drama and created
a sense of, I don't know, like, yes, there's
a cabal that's running things. And nothing came
of it. And I think it's because most of it was
just a bunch of garbage. And there were some
others. And I felt at the time that... I was
on the right side of history in that all the
media that I consumed was media that was telling
the truth. Any media that was not MAGA media,
we considered to be democratic propaganda. And
I remember distinctly saying in my podcast and
in my writings that any media that was not pro
-Trump and pro -MAGA was, to use a Steve Bannon
term, the enemy media. Yeah. And it's one of
the most damaging things about that is when you
pit an alternative or the quote unquote other
side as the enemy, it's a natural, I mean, not
natural, but it is kind of like it's controlling.
It's like, don't read them because they're wrong.
And so it's like a high authoritarian, right?
High control environment. Because it's like,
well, I can't read that because like they're
quote unquote on the wrong side, which creates
this like very black and white polarized view
of the world. And now that I'm a little older,
that's not really how the world works. There
is, you know, I think you can get to the truth
of something, but there's a lot of gray along
the way before you get there. Well, the black
and white. is exactly what happens in maga right
it's you know it's it's either pro -mega media
or it's enemy media you know someone is either
with us or they're against us um very little
idea around you know because i think there's
a there's a i don't know i don't know what to
call it in terms of like who falls into this
but there's a there's definitely a craving for
surety If I can boil the world down into black
and white, then I can feel more comfortable in
a world that feels uncomfortable. And so it's
very easy to cling to that and then want to be
able to throw everything through a very straightforward
lens and be like... good guys and bad guys cops
and robbers and like honestly that that's like
that's two -year -old thinking right that's that's
we played cops and robbers when we were growing
up right um and there's adult thinking that um
is you know sometimes it makes you feel uncomfortable
because you end up having to face truths about
yourself that you're like kind of wish that wasn't
there um i kind of wish i didn't have to share
that down but um if i don't i'm just going to
wind up with like more blinders um and you know
more inability to see clearly that's a that's
a perfect segue action to what i wanted to ask
you next which is to take us through when some
of the cracks form for you when some of the the
doubts and the confusion commence take us take
us into your life at the time you know what were
you feeling what were some of the reasons that
were making that were starting to make you second
guess your support for maca um i think um part
of it was the the what i mentioned earlier about
the um the podesta emails that was that was a
big one because that that that i think if i remember
right like those came out just before the election
in 2016. And then to see that nothing came of
it, I felt kind of duped and I felt dumb for
having fallen for it. So there was a degree of
shame that went with that. I think I also have
had a number of... bad uh bad church experiences
where the church was being led by um kind of
like high control authoritarian type person like
almost like cult of personality and i was like
this is starting to feel very very familiar to
me that was a big um a big impact and then the
other one was just like you know i've mentioned
my friend um you know we He spent hours and hours
with me, just frankly, in a way, kind of helping
reparent me, helping me understand things that
I didn't understand. And then I slowly started
to kind of, like, I'll give you an example. I
had, to whatever degree, race played into the
birther movement, which I think is a lot, or
any of the... um, antipathy towards Obama. Um,
I didn't really understand that and that hold
the dynamic and coming to learn that and understand
it, um, you know, was very humbling. And, and
as we started to talk through that, I started
to understand race much better, um, in our country
and its history and the impact that it has today.
Yeah. Those are the, probably the, those are
the top ones that kind of come to mind. And I
think also, like, I just had to ask myself, well,
I was asked by my friend, you know, like, more
or less, like, do you want to focus on just yourself
and your wife and your kids and your family and
like your little bubble? Or are you part of like
a country that we're kind of all in this together?
um and um where where i would think about the
impact of say like tax reform right like should
i only look out for my own best interests when
it comes to taxes or should i be thinking holistically
it's like well you know if we do tax cuts for
for the rich um that's not really gonna that's
not gonna help people lower down um so being
able to start to get some visibility and some
distance to be like is that really who i want
to be um started to change things as well and
it sounds like you and i don't want to assume
this but i want to ask you about this it sounds
like you may have gone through a little bit of
a religious deconstruction also yeah yeah for
sure for sure and that's been a long uh it's
been a good four -year journey at least for me
as well and and i'm not saying that for those
who are seeing this as it's not meant to be an
anti -religion or anti -christian comment just
like i know that's not what what you're saying
but there is there does seem to be this oftentimes
there's this inextricable link between religious
radicalization and support for maga that you
know that that it's present that it's there and
it's it sounds like it was the case for you yeah
for sure for sure and and there's a lot like
to your point like there's a lot of different
um aspects to that when you start to dig into
it. I think one of the things that has become
really helpful for me is to understand that I
live, we all live in a particular culture at
a particular time that informs everything. that
informs the way that you you would say like christianity
plays itself out in the us um once i started
to call it like get get a little bit of above
it all in a sense and be able to look down um
i could see where my my beliefs had been formed
um you know on this collection of things that
were very american right um and and very um a
particular i don't know vein of of american and
christianity and how the two had gotten fused
together um and i don't think we do i think it
just became wrapped up in a lot of um a lot of
kind of just gross um merging together of particular
beliefs with you know like personal beliefs with
politics and you know i just i give you so much
credit for being able to take such a a long view
and assess your beliefs and make that decision
to leave what i wanted to ask you in closing
is Why do you now, Brian, feel the need to speak
out? What do you hope would be accomplished from
speaking out the way that you're doing? The one
that I hope to experience is that someone hears
me that is still in MAGA and that it's just maybe
the first, you know, it doesn't even have to
be the first thing. It could be like a piece
along the way that results in them. having the
same type of you know realization and then deciding
to go through this process right of kind of deconstructing
a lot of things not just on the religious side
but you know just the way that they view the
world and and when i enter this is the one where
i've had first -hand opportunity to speak to
someone who's like they're you know they're separated
from their their dad or their mom or their uncle
or their brother um that they get a little bit
of hope from it and they're like okay I didn't
know that I hadn't met someone that had changed
their mind. And now that I see that someone can,
it gives me hope. All is not lost. And so that's
been always really encouraging to me. And, you
know, like I'm starting to kind of tear up sharing
it now because it's a pretty powerful experience
to be given the opportunity to play that role
for somebody. Hey, everybody. If you like this
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