WEBVTT 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:08.060 Are you concerned about the growing influence 00:00:08.060 --> 00:00:10.919 of political extremism, hyperpolarization, and 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:14.220 misinformation? Well, you're not alone. This 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:16.760 is the American Values Coalition podcast, where 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:19.480 we explore the root causes of these societal 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:22.480 ills and provide you with strategies to counter 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:29.359 them. My guest today is Rich Logis, founder of 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.119 Leaving MAGA. Rich, welcome to the ABC podcast. 00:00:32.990 --> 00:00:34.729 It's my pleasure, Nap, to be here. It's good 00:00:34.729 --> 00:00:37.729 to see you again from our original meeting at 00:00:37.729 --> 00:00:40.390 Principles First recently. Yes, which I have 00:00:40.390 --> 00:00:42.149 some questions about that, too, which I'll be 00:00:42.149 --> 00:00:45.890 asking you later. But first, let's get into a 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:50.590 little bit of your story. So you came from originally 00:00:50.590 --> 00:00:53.350 being a strong supporter of Donald Trump and 00:00:53.350 --> 00:00:58.329 even to the point of podcasting and op -ed writing 00:00:58.329 --> 00:01:01.049 and that sort of thing. Tell me what first attracted 00:01:01.049 --> 00:01:06.170 you to the Trump candidacy? Sure. Before Trump 00:01:06.170 --> 00:01:09.790 ran the first time, I was someone I would consider 00:01:09.790 --> 00:01:13.609 myself a political but also ignorant and very 00:01:13.609 --> 00:01:17.349 cynical person. And my belief at the time was 00:01:17.349 --> 00:01:20.290 that the entire established political order needed 00:01:20.290 --> 00:01:24.329 to be obliterated. So I gravitated to MAGA because 00:01:24.329 --> 00:01:29.640 I thought that we needed to break a lot. I had 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.540 voted third party many times in my voting history. 00:01:33.819 --> 00:01:36.299 I saw Trump as someone who was the right person 00:01:36.299 --> 00:01:39.780 for the job at the time. He seemed willing and 00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:42.640 able to want to take a flamethrower to the two 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.959 -party system. I believe that both parties were 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.959 the same. So we wound up getting a disruptor. 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.620 It's just that we got a disruptor who turned 00:01:51.620 --> 00:01:54.980 out to be antithetical and anathema to democracy. 00:01:55.340 --> 00:01:59.620 And I wasn't just a partisan Trump voter. I was 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:02.780 a volunteer. I did grassroots work. I wrote part 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:07.519 of the call script. After election night in 2016, 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:12.039 I became a MAGA pundit. I was writing for lots 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:16.000 of MAGA -friendly media. And my life inside MAGA 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:20.099 was someone I identified as a MAGA nationalist. 00:02:20.500 --> 00:02:24.740 Those were my values. My values were based in 00:02:24.740 --> 00:02:29.210 nationalism and isolationism. I look back on 00:02:29.210 --> 00:02:32.110 that now, and I'll get to in a moment some of 00:02:32.110 --> 00:02:34.050 the reasons I left, but when I look back on that 00:02:34.050 --> 00:02:38.590 right now, I have come to realize, as we look 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:40.849 at our current political climate, that it's much 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:45.430 easier to break something than it is to actually 00:02:45.430 --> 00:02:48.270 build it. But I believe that we needed to break 00:02:48.270 --> 00:02:51.069 everything politically and build anew. I wasn't 00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:53.830 interested in a rebuild. I wanted the entire 00:02:53.830 --> 00:02:57.750 system torn down and then started anew. And I 00:02:57.750 --> 00:03:01.250 was wrong to have thought that, but it was my 00:03:01.250 --> 00:03:05.110 genuinely held belief. And that was really my 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:09.129 entree into MAGA. It wasn't policy or ideology. 00:03:09.789 --> 00:03:13.770 It was more so this belief that the system had 00:03:13.770 --> 00:03:17.689 failed us and that we needed something new. And 00:03:17.689 --> 00:03:21.930 I want to say, not as a self -defense here, Nat, 00:03:22.069 --> 00:03:26.550 but in trying to understand the appeal of MAGA, 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:28.460 For those who are listening who are going to 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:30.360 have friends and family, and I'm sure many listening 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:32.240 have friends and family who are still in the 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:37.340 thrall of MAGA, I think that being disillusioned 00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:42.099 with politics and disenchanted and then supporting 00:03:42.099 --> 00:03:44.400 Trump for those reasons, I think that those were 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:47.460 relatively anodyne and non -controversial reasons. 00:03:47.620 --> 00:03:49.819 I don't think that those reasons are applicable 00:03:49.819 --> 00:03:54.080 any longer, but there was some validity to being 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.949 motivated and guided. by those beliefs at the 00:03:56.949 --> 00:04:00.449 time. And that's really how I went from this 00:04:00.449 --> 00:04:05.229 third party, very disgusted at politics voter 00:04:05.229 --> 00:04:08.250 to supporting Trump and being all in on the MAGA 00:04:08.250 --> 00:04:11.990 movement. Yeah, I mean, the cynicism you're talking 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:15.310 about, that's very common. I mean, I can relate 00:04:15.310 --> 00:04:18.069 to that. I mean, certainly when you see politics 00:04:18.069 --> 00:04:21.350 today, it's very easy to be cynical about what's 00:04:21.350 --> 00:04:24.529 going on. Was there something about Trump himself 00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:26.629 that you found attractive? Like, were you a fan 00:04:26.629 --> 00:04:28.930 of The Apprentice or did you know much about 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:30.910 Trump? I mean, everybody knew about Trump. He's 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:33.430 kind of famous, right? But yeah, was there something 00:04:33.430 --> 00:04:36.810 about Trump in particular that you thought energized 00:04:36.810 --> 00:04:41.250 you? What attracted to me as a candidate, as 00:04:41.250 --> 00:04:44.209 he is a candidate, what I found particularly 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:48.629 enticing is that I had concluded several months 00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:52.860 after he declared that he didn't. actually need 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:55.439 the job. And so because he didn't need the job 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:57.220 is why I believe that he was going to do the 00:04:57.220 --> 00:04:59.959 job for the right reasons, make the country a 00:04:59.959 --> 00:05:04.160 better place. I also figured out that both parties 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:08.000 saw him as a threat. And as someone who voted 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.259 for Ralph Nader several times as an example, 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.180 I supported Ralph Nader in the year 2000. I was 00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:16.800 23 years old living in New York at the time. 00:05:17.829 --> 00:05:20.769 He was this iconoclastic maverick rogue candidate. 00:05:20.889 --> 00:05:23.569 I saw Trump very similarly. The one difference, 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:25.810 though, is that unlike Ralph Nader, Trump was 00:05:25.810 --> 00:05:28.990 loathed by both parties, the Democratic and Republican 00:05:28.990 --> 00:05:31.930 parties. So when I figured out that both parties 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:35.610 saw him that way, I was in because I thought 00:05:35.610 --> 00:05:41.670 that's exactly the kind of person I want as president. 00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:45.589 Now, on one hand, that people maybe figured that 00:05:45.589 --> 00:05:48.769 out and thought. well that's exactly why i don't 00:05:48.769 --> 00:05:51.069 want to vote for him if both parties can't stand 00:05:51.069 --> 00:05:54.209 him i had the exact opposite view my view was 00:05:54.209 --> 00:05:56.930 no no no if both parties see him this way he's 00:05:56.930 --> 00:05:59.269 got to be the right guy for the job and then 00:05:59.269 --> 00:06:03.649 i was in and so it was not a lot of thought process 00:06:03.649 --> 00:06:06.110 behind it but but those reasons were important 00:06:06.110 --> 00:06:09.089 to me at the time and i suspect for there are 00:06:09.089 --> 00:06:12.430 some i i've known over the years who have who 00:06:12.430 --> 00:06:15.910 have uh communicated to me similar that they've 00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:20.120 said that That because he wasn't from government 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:24.639 or politics or military, that made him a particularly 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:28.360 compelling candidate. And I think, again, that 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:31.199 is logical and it stands up to scrutiny based 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:33.899 on how he was running at the time as a candidate. 00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:37.579 And yes, I looked the other way on the statements 00:06:37.579 --> 00:06:39.860 he made about women and Muslims, the statement 00:06:39.860 --> 00:06:43.199 about the late John McCain. You know, those were 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.800 not. remarks i defended but i believe that the 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.279 alternative of hillary and the democrats were 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:52.040 worse and if you believe that the alternative 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:57.500 is worse and i i got all in on the movement itself 00:06:57.500 --> 00:07:02.839 it it became easier for me to overlook some statements 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.480 that looking back on it now were were indefensible 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.800 and i knew that they I know they didn't warrant 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.620 justification at the time, but when we make a 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:15.779 decision, we find ways of determining that that's 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.139 the right decision and we do continue to overlook. 00:07:18.699 --> 00:07:21.699 Yeah, yeah, sure. And just looking back on it 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:25.339 now, do you think your enthusiasm for Trump was 00:07:25.339 --> 00:07:28.660 more heart -centered or head -centered or a little 00:07:28.660 --> 00:07:33.279 bit of both? Predominantly heart -centered. You 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.480 know, there was not a lot of consideration given 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:41.709 to political philosophy or ideology. That's something 00:07:41.709 --> 00:07:44.529 about MAGA that I think is important for listeners. 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:48.449 From my perspective, if I can offer, the value 00:07:48.449 --> 00:07:52.750 I bring is experiential. And ideologically, Nap, 00:07:52.870 --> 00:07:57.230 there really is not anything in MAGA that is 00:07:57.230 --> 00:08:01.230 shaped by policy. The closest to ideology in 00:08:01.230 --> 00:08:05.870 MAGA is a conviction. that liberalism and liberal 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:08.829 democracy are the sources of all of our personal 00:08:08.829 --> 00:08:12.009 and national ills. Now, I didn't think of it 00:08:12.009 --> 00:08:14.870 exactly that way when I was in MAGA. It's not 00:08:14.870 --> 00:08:17.089 thought about it precisely that way right now, 00:08:17.170 --> 00:08:21.170 but that's what the shared common enemy of being 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:24.129 in the MAGA community was that belief about democratic 00:08:24.129 --> 00:08:26.769 institutions, liberalism, and liberal democracy. 00:08:27.029 --> 00:08:32.009 So I wasn't giving a lot of... My support wasn't... 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:36.440 really cerebral it was much more emotional leading 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:40.299 with as you say leading with the heart and when 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:46.139 did the doubts start to set in i feel like this 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:49.120 is a self -defense on my part but i want to mention 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.059 it because i think it's pertinent to the conversation 00:08:51.059 --> 00:08:55.360 there were times privately that i and other mega 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:58.159 americans criticized trump after charlottesville 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.100 was an example During COVID, we knew that Trump 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:04.860 was mismanaging COVID. We knew it. But just like 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:09.059 in 16, I was working to get the president reelected. 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:13.179 So while we might censure him, sometimes quite 00:09:13.179 --> 00:09:15.759 harshly, privately, we never did it publicly. 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:17.899 Because if you were in MAGA and you criticized 00:09:17.899 --> 00:09:21.360 the president publicly, you were exiled as a 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:24.620 MAGA apostate and a heretic. That's why, for 00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:28.340 example, any information. that would remotely 00:09:28.340 --> 00:09:31.820 refute or challenge the pervasively held mythologies 00:09:31.820 --> 00:09:33.980 and beliefs of MAGA, it was shunned. It was kept 00:09:33.980 --> 00:09:37.059 out. And I know people are going to hear that, 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.019 and I can already feel the response that's coming 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:41.919 from others hearing, oh, it sounds like a cult, 00:09:42.019 --> 00:09:46.379 sounds like a cult. MAGA does not fit, in my 00:09:46.379 --> 00:09:49.460 view, the definition of a cult, even though I 00:09:49.460 --> 00:09:51.879 do agree that there were some cult -like aspects 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.990 for me personally. You know, I never took nap 00:09:55.990 --> 00:09:59.470 an hour off from MAGA. It was my life. It was 00:09:59.470 --> 00:10:03.809 my being, my personhood, my identity. So there 00:10:03.809 --> 00:10:06.549 were these factors about COVID. There were the 00:10:06.549 --> 00:10:10.049 stolen election lies. I knew that we had lost. 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:15.169 There was January 6th. But the accelerant for 00:10:15.169 --> 00:10:18.730 me actually happened in addition to those reasons 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:24.539 in late summer, early fall of 2021. And that's 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:27.139 when my governor, Ron DeSantis, was platforming 00:10:27.139 --> 00:10:30.600 anti -vaxxers at his pressers. I didn't think 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.240 the COVID vaccine was going to kill anyone. I 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.480 admit that I didn't take COVID seriously, but 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.419 I didn't think it was a bioweapon. I didn't believe 00:10:38.419 --> 00:10:41.100 it was a ploy by the Democratic Party to keep 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:42.899 us from winning reelection. I never believed 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:44.899 that. And I didn't think the election had been 00:10:44.899 --> 00:10:47.580 stolen. And then when Ron DeSantis, whom I thought 00:10:47.580 --> 00:10:50.440 showed very strong leadership, actually, in fairness 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:53.289 in the first year and a half. All of a sudden, 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:56.570 he's got people who are talking about the vaccine 00:10:56.570 --> 00:11:00.269 changing your RNA. That shocked me and created 00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:03.429 confusion. And it was at that moment when my 00:11:03.429 --> 00:11:06.690 doubts commenced. And I did something after that 00:11:06.690 --> 00:11:11.990 that sounds so simple, but it was profoundly 00:11:11.990 --> 00:11:14.570 life -altering for me, which was I diversified 00:11:14.570 --> 00:11:18.090 my news and information sources. And I started 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:21.379 to learn more about January 6th. And I also started 00:11:21.379 --> 00:11:25.679 to understand that people with whom I disagreed 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.919 were not the existential threats and enemies 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.639 that I had believed them to be. And so I went 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:35.639 through the next many, many months vacillating 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:39.039 between being in and being out. I would have 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.200 a doubt. I would hear Trump, for example, talk 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.820 about another, he'd have another lie about the 00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:47.379 election being stolen. And I would say, can I 00:11:47.379 --> 00:11:51.120 really keep supporting this? Of an event at Mar 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.159 -a -Lago I went to, for example, and I would 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.179 say, no, no, no, we're just we're hitting a rough 00:11:56.179 --> 00:11:58.899 patch here. I'm on the right side. Just got to 00:11:58.899 --> 00:12:01.340 tough it out. And I would go through that for 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:04.000 many, many months. And then there was early February 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:08.399 of 2022 when the Republican Party called January 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:12.679 6th legitimate political discourse. I didn't 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.220 agree with what happened on January 6th. I knew 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:19.110 people who went. I didn't go. I thought it. I 00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.370 thought it was a purposeless protest. But people 00:12:22.370 --> 00:12:25.830 went and rioted against the Capitol. And what 00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:27.929 I was actually upset about at the time, Nap, 00:12:28.009 --> 00:12:30.649 was not that I knew officers were going to get 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:33.710 hurt. There would be possible casualties. I was 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:36.509 angry that I felt like the insurrectionists were 00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:39.529 going to harm our chances of a comeback in 2024. 00:12:39.710 --> 00:12:43.190 So my concern wasn't the humanity. It was damage 00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:46.350 control and political future. So when I'm going 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:49.580 through my doubts. And we've got the Republican 00:12:49.580 --> 00:12:51.919 Party saying legitimate political discourse. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:57.299 That was another factor for me that just got 00:12:57.299 --> 00:13:02.500 me questioning over and over again, can I continue 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:06.279 to align with this? And then the final straw 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:10.620 for me happened May 24, 2022. And that was the 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.440 day of the Uvalde school shooting. Now, I'm a 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.919 firearm owner. I actually conceal carry a firearm 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:20.320 every day. I'm a believer in responsible ownership. 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.820 But I knew that day I'm driving. If you can imagine, 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.759 I'm driving white knuckled on the steering wheel 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:31.620 and listening to the reports on the radio about 00:13:31.620 --> 00:13:33.600 the school shooting, knowing that children would 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.480 be casualties and that there would be many. And 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.500 I knew what the Republican response was going 00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:42.379 to be to it. It was shortly thereafter, Uvalde, 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.830 that I quietly quit and I left. But you know 00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:48.830 what? Something was nagging at me. I was always 00:13:48.830 --> 00:13:51.210 so unapologetically public in my support for 00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:53.730 Trump. I felt that I needed to be unapologetically 00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:57.389 public in my renunciation of MAGA. And it was 00:13:57.389 --> 00:14:01.789 on August 30th, 2022. That's the exact day. It's 00:14:01.789 --> 00:14:04.929 my leaving MAGAversary, as I call it. I wrote 00:14:04.929 --> 00:14:07.509 a mea culpa. And in that mea culpa, I said that 00:14:07.509 --> 00:14:09.870 I supported Trump for what I thought were the 00:14:09.870 --> 00:14:13.600 right reasons, but I was wrong. I wanted to show 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.360 remorse and I wanted to apologize to anyone I'd 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:19.220 hurt. And if you can imagine this, I've got my 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:21.340 hand on the mouse. The little arrow is on the 00:14:21.340 --> 00:14:24.700 publish button. On one hand, nap, I'm exhilarated. 00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:27.679 But on the other hand, I am afraid because I 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:29.879 know that once it's published, it is permanent. 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:31.940 And it was the permanence that made it scary. 00:14:32.139 --> 00:14:35.720 But I did it. And the moment that I did it, I 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.159 actually never believed that anybody would care. 00:14:39.910 --> 00:14:42.529 God's honest truth. I did not think anyone would 00:14:42.529 --> 00:14:47.009 care. And as soon as it went online, instantaneously 00:14:47.009 --> 00:14:50.110 getting comments, Rich, can you talk to my mother, 00:14:50.149 --> 00:14:54.929 my brother, my son, my father, my parents? I 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:58.509 was completely oblivious and naive to just how 00:14:58.509 --> 00:15:01.830 many relationships had been torn asunder by the 00:15:01.830 --> 00:15:04.269 MAGA movement. But I knew the moment I did it, 00:15:04.269 --> 00:15:07.070 Nap, I had no regrets then and no regrets now. 00:15:07.129 --> 00:15:08.990 It was the correct decision for me to leave. 00:15:11.129 --> 00:15:14.049 Wow. All right. So I want to hear more about 00:15:14.049 --> 00:15:16.110 this diversifying your news sources, because 00:15:16.110 --> 00:15:17.750 this is something we talk about a lot, about 00:15:17.750 --> 00:15:20.090 how we have these media bubbles. There's definitely 00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:22.309 a left -wing media bubble that some folks are 00:15:22.309 --> 00:15:24.710 in, and then there's the right -wing media bubble. 00:15:24.889 --> 00:15:27.470 So what were your news sources before, and then 00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:31.289 what happened? How did you diversify those? In 00:15:31.289 --> 00:15:34.710 MAGA, most of the media I consumed was media 00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:38.029 that I was writing for as an aspiring pundit. 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:43.379 It was the Federalist. It was American thinker, 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.059 American greatness. I wrote dozens and dozens 00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.200 of freelance stories for a site called World 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.860 Net Daily run by a guy named Joseph Farah. World 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.500 Net Daily is where the Obama birther conspiracy 00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:58.919 originated. And I knew that, but I didn't care. 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.440 And I wrote all of these stories without pay. 00:16:03.070 --> 00:16:05.529 I was never paid for any freelance stories. And 00:16:05.529 --> 00:16:07.350 I didn't care about that either, Nat, because 00:16:07.350 --> 00:16:09.850 that was part of the crusade. That was part of 00:16:09.850 --> 00:16:14.389 the mission as being this patriotic political 00:16:14.389 --> 00:16:17.570 soldier who was on the right side of history. 00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:19.629 And everybody who was not with us, they were 00:16:19.629 --> 00:16:22.230 on the wrong side. So I was, for example, another 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:24.929 site was a site like Breitbart. Breitbart was 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:28.769 the site I consumed more than any other media 00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:34.549 during my time in MAGA. Even Fox News, even though 00:16:34.549 --> 00:16:38.950 I watched Tucker Carlson, we viewed Fox News 00:16:38.950 --> 00:16:42.289 and the MAGA community as CNN and MSNBC white. 00:16:43.409 --> 00:16:47.409 We say, oh, it's Vichy, squishy Republican media. 00:16:47.570 --> 00:16:51.470 Yeah, it's better than CNN. Yeah, it's better 00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:54.529 than, let's say, the New York Times. But Fox 00:16:54.529 --> 00:16:56.750 isn't that great. Yeah, they've got sometimes 00:16:56.750 --> 00:16:58.809 an anti -Trump slant. This is what we thought 00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:01.169 in MAGA. So even though I would watch Tucker 00:17:01.169 --> 00:17:04.730 and I would sometimes tune into some of the other 00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:08.089 shows, I wasn't really relying on Fox. For me, 00:17:08.109 --> 00:17:10.390 it was more the Breitbart's and the other sites 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:13.269 that I was writing for. And of course, at those 00:17:13.269 --> 00:17:16.759 sites, I lived in the comment section. Because 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.980 that's where you could be a MAGA rabble rouser, 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:21.740 very much so in the comments section. But then 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:25.200 once I diversified my news and information sources, 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:33.519 you start to discover facts that challenge what 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.119 maybe were sincerely held but incorrect beliefs. 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.480 You diversify news and information sources. I 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.130 realized, well, Democrats weren't really. coming 00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:48.250 for our guns or they weren't importing foreigners 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:51.450 and brown people to replace white people. They 00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:54.789 weren't indoctrinating our children into becoming 00:17:54.789 --> 00:17:58.890 transgender Marxists, which I don't know what 00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:02.029 Groucho, Harpo, Zeppo, Chico and Gummo ever did 00:18:02.029 --> 00:18:04.609 to the Republican Party. But, you know, let's 00:18:04.609 --> 00:18:06.630 let's keep the Marx name out of there. You know, 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:08.589 and that's what we heard. That's what I believed 00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:12.230 in MAGA. And then going from those sources to 00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:15.319 just. mainstream then going to mainstream sources 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:16.960 like your new york times and your washington 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.680 post and your atlantic right media that's been 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.440 around and established for for a century plus 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:29.079 in some cases what you come to learn and as makes 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.500 it hard to leave maga is that so much of the 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:35.880 beliefs that that we had accumulated over many 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:43.990 many years turn out to be false reasons that 00:18:43.990 --> 00:18:46.390 made it so hard to leave. The first was you're 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:49.849 walking away from a community. MAGA is not a 00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:54.009 cult. It is a political community. That's what 00:18:54.009 --> 00:18:57.809 it is at its core. I knew that if I left, I'd 00:18:57.809 --> 00:19:01.650 be walking away from a second family. And not 00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:03.789 just a second family, but one that sometimes 00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:07.049 I'm embarrassed to say took precedence over my 00:19:07.049 --> 00:19:09.759 own blood family. But the other reason that will 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.160 also made it so excruciatingly difficult to leave 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:17.400 is that you had to come to this liberating but 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:22.019 painful realization that so much of what you 00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:24.500 believe turned out to be false. And it wasn't 00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:27.839 just that it was false, but you created a sincere 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:33.140 persona around these beliefs. And so I like to 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:35.200 paraphrase Ernest Hemingway on this point that 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.380 my epiphany. happened gradually and then suddenly 00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:42.339 all at once because it was this, there was this 00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:46.299 constant turmoil and personal tumult as I wrestled 00:19:46.299 --> 00:19:50.160 with having to increasingly understand that what 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.980 I believed was wrong. And that's what everyone 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:57.930 who's left MAGA has. gone through to some extent. 00:19:58.089 --> 00:20:00.289 And we've got other testimonials. People can 00:20:00.289 --> 00:20:03.210 read them at our site, leavingmaga .org. We've 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:05.869 got a very diverse assortment of people who left. 00:20:05.990 --> 00:20:10.529 Some were young men. Some were evangelical Christians 00:20:10.529 --> 00:20:13.589 who had a crisis of faith and they wound up leaving. 00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:17.309 Everyone has an individual experience, but those 00:20:17.309 --> 00:20:20.269 who read the testimonials will see some. There's 00:20:20.269 --> 00:20:22.809 a leitmotif throughout these stories, which is 00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:28.410 It's coming to this conclusion of being mistaken 00:20:28.410 --> 00:20:30.849 about something that was so crucial to your identity. 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:34.329 But we decide that because it was wrong that 00:20:34.329 --> 00:20:38.630 we change our minds. And as we change our minds, 00:20:38.670 --> 00:20:41.910 we evolve and grow as individuals. And that's 00:20:41.910 --> 00:20:44.049 what everyone who's left MAG has gone through. 00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:48.269 Did you have any friends or family members? that 00:20:48.269 --> 00:20:50.309 were non -MAGA, that were concerned about you 00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:52.130 and trying to help you as you were going through 00:20:52.130 --> 00:20:56.869 this? Yes, yes. In fact, one of the parts of 00:20:56.869 --> 00:21:01.230 making amends when I left MAGA is I went to all 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:05.750 of my friends whom I had considered to be an 00:21:05.750 --> 00:21:08.950 enemy to me because they were blue voters. And 00:21:08.950 --> 00:21:11.609 to understand this nap, it wasn't, for example, 00:21:11.609 --> 00:21:14.440 that I... picked up the phone and called many 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:16.880 of my closest blue voting friends and said, we 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.140 can't be friends anymore. It's just that I drifted 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:22.519 away from them because I had new friends and 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.200 a new second family with those who were in NAGA. 00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:29.240 But what I did is I called every one of them 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:34.660 and I said, I accept if you won't. I respect 00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:37.420 if you won't accept my apology, but I need to 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:40.859 say that I'm sorry that I thought about you a 00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:45.259 certain way because of how you voted. And everybody 00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:49.700 accepted my apology. In fact, one in particular 00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:53.180 who was very influential to me in college gave 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:55.819 me a lot of second chances that I did not deserve. 00:21:56.900 --> 00:22:00.480 He said to me after accepting my apology, Rich, 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.890 I always knew that you'd come back. And I bring 00:22:04.890 --> 00:22:07.329 this up, Nap, because for those listening who 00:22:07.329 --> 00:22:09.869 have friends and family, I am imploring all of 00:22:09.869 --> 00:22:13.730 you, please do not give up on those closest to 00:22:13.730 --> 00:22:17.210 you. I recently developed and produced a video. 00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:20.349 We've got a blueprint that's in a book that we 00:22:20.349 --> 00:22:22.730 wrote, which is a free book, no strings attached, 00:22:23.069 --> 00:22:25.670 which is a how -to blueprint for friends and 00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:28.990 family on how to talk to friends and family who 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:34.719 are in MAGA. And I know it's a tough ask. to 00:22:34.719 --> 00:22:38.480 request of people who are not in MAGA to go and 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.680 re -engage their friends and family. But the 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:42.819 ones who are not in MAGA, I view them as our 00:22:42.819 --> 00:22:45.980 allies right now, because we're going to need 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:49.500 their empathy to show those who are in MAGA that 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:52.059 as they start to have doubts, which I prognosticate 00:22:52.059 --> 00:22:53.960 is going to happen, we want to give them an exit 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.420 ramp. We want to show them that there's a way 00:22:56.420 --> 00:22:58.359 out. There's a new community at Leaving MAGA 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:01.579 where you can come in and join us without judgment, 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.400 without ostracization. So I'm very thankful that 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.500 I have a wonderful assortment of friends who 00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:14.299 realized that even though they didn't agree with 00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:17.700 my politics, they never gave up on me and they 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:21.420 welcomed me back into their lives. Yeah, that's 00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:23.220 great. I mean, you're definitely on the right 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:25.559 podcast. And I think a lot of our supporters 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.539 have come to us because they have friends and 00:23:28.539 --> 00:23:31.079 family members who they love, who they care about 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.799 and that they're concerned about because they're 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:35.660 going down this road of political extremism. 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.440 And they just want some help, want to understand 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.140 what to do about it. And, you know, the first 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:43.319 thing I say is understand you're not alone. This 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.440 is a lot of people are going through this and 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:49.170 you can find a community of folks. who are also 00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:51.549 going through this and can help with resources. 00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:53.789 So that sounds like a great resource. We will 00:23:53.789 --> 00:23:55.970 definitely work to share it as much as we can. 00:23:56.829 --> 00:23:59.150 You had mentioned that we met at the principal's 00:23:59.150 --> 00:24:01.829 first conference. So this is kind of related 00:24:01.829 --> 00:24:04.509 to what I wanted to say next. So at the principal's 00:24:04.509 --> 00:24:06.589 first conference, I heard you get some remarks 00:24:06.589 --> 00:24:09.380 on that opening night. And one of the things 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:11.500 was you said, don't give up on your MAGA friends. 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:14.240 And there was kind of like a little, like a moan. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:15.720 I don't know if there was actual booze, but it's 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.920 kind of like, oh, throughout the audience. It 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.660 was, I was a little frustrated at hearing that 00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:23.259 or disappointed in hearing that. And it was, 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:26.180 I call it like the Joe Walsh wing of principals 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:29.279 first. Joe Walsh, the congressman who's always 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.950 like, you know. Yeah, they're lost. You can't 00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:36.849 do anything. Joe's an organized crazy. I joked 00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:38.750 with him about that. I didn't get a chance to 00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:40.650 see him speak as I was at our table, but I did 00:24:40.650 --> 00:24:48.170 hear the groans. They were audible. It was not 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:54.289 unexpected, but I felt compelled to mention it. 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:57.460 because i know when i asked the question how 00:24:57.460 --> 00:25:00.240 many show of hands who has friends and family 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.859 i did not see anyone without a hand up yeah pretty 00:25:03.859 --> 00:25:06.480 much everyone i saw in the sea of people raised 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:10.640 their hands yeah and i can understand how frustrating 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:13.680 it could be if you know for like 10 years you've 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.319 been like working on your you know worried about 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.960 your uncle or whoever it is and uh And, you know, 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:22.019 and you don't see any hope. But there is always 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:24.759 hope. I just heard last week through our network, 00:25:25.059 --> 00:25:30.299 somebody who had been in MAGA, somebody's father 00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:32.640 who had been in MAGA this whole time. And all 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.460 of a sudden, he left. And you know what it was? 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:42.259 It was the Zelensky Oval Office meeting. It's 00:25:42.259 --> 00:25:44.279 like he watched that. And all of a sudden, it's 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.609 like the light came on. It's like, oh. That's 00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:49.750 who Trump is, you know. You got to introduce 00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:52.769 me to this person. I need to talk to him because 00:25:52.769 --> 00:25:55.369 if he's willing to share his story publicly, 00:25:55.589 --> 00:25:58.430 I want to give him an outlet to do that. I'll 00:25:58.430 --> 00:26:00.589 reach out and see if they're willing to do that. 00:26:01.069 --> 00:26:03.650 Yeah, that would be great to do that, to speak 00:26:03.650 --> 00:26:05.609 with him, because that's what we're doing as 00:26:05.609 --> 00:26:07.369 an organization. You know, we're telling these 00:26:07.369 --> 00:26:09.650 stories of people who left. And, you know, one 00:26:09.650 --> 00:26:13.130 question in that how -to blueprint actually is 00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:16.289 centered on values. And one of the questions 00:26:16.289 --> 00:26:20.230 is, what were what were your what did you consider 00:26:20.230 --> 00:26:23.470 your values to be before Trump and MAGA came 00:26:23.470 --> 00:26:26.190 on the political scene? And I think for a lot 00:26:26.190 --> 00:26:28.650 of people in MAGA, that's a question that isn't 00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:34.289 it's meant to lower the defenses and is not one 00:26:34.289 --> 00:26:36.269 that it's not a question that is designed to 00:26:36.269 --> 00:26:38.289 cast aspersions on them. It's to get them thinking 00:26:38.289 --> 00:26:40.670 about, you know, what were my values before Trump 00:26:40.670 --> 00:26:43.430 and MAGA came along? And then it's an opening 00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:48.490 to to try to. navigate are those are those values 00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:51.349 affirmed by mag and by trump and when people 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:53.250 start thinking about their values then they think 00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:55.529 about themselves because that's the only way 00:26:55.529 --> 00:26:59.230 to to ultimately get someone to act is that they 00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:01.150 have to feel like it affects their lives that's 00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:05.450 something that it fair unfair is was one of the 00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:08.089 challenges the democratic party had in this election 00:27:08.089 --> 00:27:11.670 is that there just wasn't enough of i feel your 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.460 pain and I don't know if the outcome would have 00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:16.920 been different if there had been more. I feel 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.039 your pain, but I can't I don't see how it would 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.400 have hurt our efforts. You know, and I was a 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.339 I was a co -chair here in Florida for Republicans 00:27:25.339 --> 00:27:28.019 for Harris, because even though I'm not a Republican 00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:30.359 now and I wasn't before Trump, I was a Republican 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.960 under his first presidency. So as that surrogate, 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.599 you know, I'd have these conversations about. 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.519 where Republicans were, where Democrats were. 00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:44.480 And I remember feeling like as a surrogate at 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:48.359 the time, I just remember thinking we we are 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.259 not respecting enough that people are feeling 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:57.400 pain economically. And that's not I'm not saying 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:01.259 that was Joe's and Kamala's fault, but it never 00:28:01.259 --> 00:28:03.500 hurt anyone to run the Bill Clinton play of I 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:06.039 feel your pain. And we didn't do that. You know, 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.630 and the Republicans. Maybe not in quite that 00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:13.329 much of an articulate way, in a cogent way, but 00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:15.769 they still did it more frequently than did the 00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:20.049 Democrats. Okay. And we still have a little bit 00:28:20.049 --> 00:28:21.549 of time. Is there anything else from the blueprint 00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:23.529 you'd like to share for someone who's trying 00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:27.269 to reach somebody in MAGA? Yeah, be sure. Reach 00:28:27.269 --> 00:28:30.269 out to us. You can actually email me directly 00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:33.930 at rich at leavingmaga .org. At our site, leavingmaga 00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:36.940 .org is where you can connect with us. I will 00:28:36.940 --> 00:28:38.960 make sure anyone who follows up with me directly, 00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:41.980 I will get them the video and the blueprint. 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:44.859 We're in the process of getting it uploaded to 00:28:44.859 --> 00:28:46.940 our site. So between now and then, anyone who 00:28:46.940 --> 00:28:48.779 wants it, I want to make sure they're not kept 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:52.059 waiting. So just reach out to me directly. Let 00:28:52.059 --> 00:28:54.380 me know that you heard us here, and I will get 00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:56.960 you the video, and I'll get you the how -to. 00:28:57.579 --> 00:29:00.220 And I would ask everyone who decides to watch 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:03.109 and follow this how -to, I want... I want feedback 00:29:03.109 --> 00:29:06.190 from it. I want to know if it's working, if they 00:29:06.190 --> 00:29:08.589 feel like it's making progress. A lot of leaving 00:29:08.589 --> 00:29:11.789 MAGA's work, admittedly, is learning on the job. 00:29:12.069 --> 00:29:17.450 So I'm trying to, the labyrinth of how to get 00:29:17.450 --> 00:29:20.490 through to MAGA people is one that I don't proclaim 00:29:20.490 --> 00:29:24.789 to think that I've mastered. And everyone's feedback 00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:28.269 is extremely valuable to me because we're always 00:29:28.269 --> 00:29:31.009 trying to fine tune all the techniques and the 00:29:31.009 --> 00:29:34.839 approach. And if this is your first time listening 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:36.819 to the American Values Coalition podcast and 00:29:36.819 --> 00:29:38.680 you want to learn more about our organization, 00:29:39.019 --> 00:29:42.440 head to AmericanValues .org. You can sign up 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.359 for our weekly newsletter just by clicking on 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:47.039 newsletter there as well. If you're watching 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.099 the video feed, you may be admiring my Disagree 00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:56.220 Be Friends t -shirt. Love it. You can get that 00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:58.680 also at our store. Just click on the store there 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:03.920 at AmericanValues .org. It's great for Family 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.440 reunions, you know, any sort of group to get 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:08.380 together where there might be a mixed audience. 00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:12.880 I have one more question for you before we leave, 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:18.619 Rich. Suppose somebody found this podcast who 00:30:18.619 --> 00:30:20.640 were actually in MAGA, but maybe starting to 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.829 have some doubts. So they're just curious. What's 00:30:23.829 --> 00:30:26.230 your message to somebody who's listening who 00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:29.450 is still a MAGA supporter? Sure. I would like 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:32.329 to emphasize to that person that I don't believe 00:30:32.329 --> 00:30:36.450 that he or she is a racist or Nazi or misogynist, 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:41.450 that I think deep down that they are a good person. 00:30:42.730 --> 00:30:45.950 If they're having doubts, I would ask them to 00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:49.750 consider listening to those doubts and knowing. 00:30:50.569 --> 00:30:53.410 that if they were to go through their own odyssey 00:30:53.410 --> 00:30:58.890 of potentially and inevitably leaving MAGA, that 00:30:58.890 --> 00:31:02.069 they have a community with us at Leaving MAGA 00:31:02.069 --> 00:31:05.509 of like -minded individuals, where there is no 00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:09.150 ideological purity test for anyone who decides 00:31:09.150 --> 00:31:12.230 they want to become a member of our community. 00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:14.589 But I would really stress and emphasize that 00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:17.230 they listen to their conscience, they listen 00:31:17.230 --> 00:31:20.019 to those doubts, don't suppress them. Because 00:31:20.019 --> 00:31:22.400 listening to those doubts is how eventually we 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:25.220 grow to make the decisions that we think are 00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:27.799 best for our life. So for anyone who's hearing 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:31.900 it, who maybe is MAGA or having doubts, get in 00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:34.720 touch. Get in touch. Let's talk. I want to talk 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.200 to you without any kind of judgment. Because 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:39.160 that's the work that we're doing now, NAP. We 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:42.279 are as much as we are about friends and family, 00:31:42.339 --> 00:31:45.259 we are also very much for those who are in the 00:31:45.259 --> 00:31:47.859 MAGA community right now. So all are welcome 00:31:47.859 --> 00:31:51.819 at our group. The group is leaving MAGA. Thanks 00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:54.460 for joining the ABC podcast. Yeah, it was my 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:55.880 pleasure. Thanks for having me on that.