Are you concerned about the growing influence
of political extremism, hyperpolarization, and
misinformation? Well, you're not alone. This
is the American Values Coalition podcast, where
we explore the root causes of these societal
ills and provide you with strategies to counter
them. My guest today is Rich Logis, founder of
Leaving MAGA. Rich, welcome to the ABC podcast.
It's my pleasure, Nap, to be here. It's good
to see you again from our original meeting at
Principles First recently. Yes, which I have
some questions about that, too, which I'll be
asking you later. But first, let's get into a
little bit of your story. So you came from originally
being a strong supporter of Donald Trump and
even to the point of podcasting and op -ed writing
and that sort of thing. Tell me what first attracted
you to the Trump candidacy? Sure. Before Trump
ran the first time, I was someone I would consider
myself a political but also ignorant and very
cynical person. And my belief at the time was
that the entire established political order needed
to be obliterated. So I gravitated to MAGA because
I thought that we needed to break a lot. I had
voted third party many times in my voting history.
I saw Trump as someone who was the right person
for the job at the time. He seemed willing and
able to want to take a flamethrower to the two
-party system. I believe that both parties were
the same. So we wound up getting a disruptor.
It's just that we got a disruptor who turned
out to be antithetical and anathema to democracy.
And I wasn't just a partisan Trump voter. I was
a volunteer. I did grassroots work. I wrote part
of the call script. After election night in 2016,
I became a MAGA pundit. I was writing for lots
of MAGA -friendly media. And my life inside MAGA
was someone I identified as a MAGA nationalist.
Those were my values. My values were based in
nationalism and isolationism. I look back on
that now, and I'll get to in a moment some of
the reasons I left, but when I look back on that
right now, I have come to realize, as we look
at our current political climate, that it's much
easier to break something than it is to actually
build it. But I believe that we needed to break
everything politically and build anew. I wasn't
interested in a rebuild. I wanted the entire
system torn down and then started anew. And I
was wrong to have thought that, but it was my
genuinely held belief. And that was really my
entree into MAGA. It wasn't policy or ideology.
It was more so this belief that the system had
failed us and that we needed something new. And
I want to say, not as a self -defense here, Nat,
but in trying to understand the appeal of MAGA,
For those who are listening who are going to
have friends and family, and I'm sure many listening
have friends and family who are still in the
thrall of MAGA, I think that being disillusioned
with politics and disenchanted and then supporting
Trump for those reasons, I think that those were
relatively anodyne and non -controversial reasons.
I don't think that those reasons are applicable
any longer, but there was some validity to being
motivated and guided. by those beliefs at the
time. And that's really how I went from this
third party, very disgusted at politics voter
to supporting Trump and being all in on the MAGA
movement. Yeah, I mean, the cynicism you're talking
about, that's very common. I mean, I can relate
to that. I mean, certainly when you see politics
today, it's very easy to be cynical about what's
going on. Was there something about Trump himself
that you found attractive? Like, were you a fan
of The Apprentice or did you know much about
Trump? I mean, everybody knew about Trump. He's
kind of famous, right? But yeah, was there something
about Trump in particular that you thought energized
you? What attracted to me as a candidate, as
he is a candidate, what I found particularly
enticing is that I had concluded several months
after he declared that he didn't. actually need
the job. And so because he didn't need the job
is why I believe that he was going to do the
job for the right reasons, make the country a
better place. I also figured out that both parties
saw him as a threat. And as someone who voted
for Ralph Nader several times as an example,
I supported Ralph Nader in the year 2000. I was
23 years old living in New York at the time.
He was this iconoclastic maverick rogue candidate.
I saw Trump very similarly. The one difference,
though, is that unlike Ralph Nader, Trump was
loathed by both parties, the Democratic and Republican
parties. So when I figured out that both parties
saw him that way, I was in because I thought
that's exactly the kind of person I want as president.
Now, on one hand, that people maybe figured that
out and thought. well that's exactly why i don't
want to vote for him if both parties can't stand
him i had the exact opposite view my view was
no no no if both parties see him this way he's
got to be the right guy for the job and then
i was in and so it was not a lot of thought process
behind it but but those reasons were important
to me at the time and i suspect for there are
some i i've known over the years who have who
have uh communicated to me similar that they've
said that That because he wasn't from government
or politics or military, that made him a particularly
compelling candidate. And I think, again, that
is logical and it stands up to scrutiny based
on how he was running at the time as a candidate.
And yes, I looked the other way on the statements
he made about women and Muslims, the statement
about the late John McCain. You know, those were
not. remarks i defended but i believe that the
alternative of hillary and the democrats were
worse and if you believe that the alternative
is worse and i i got all in on the movement itself
it it became easier for me to overlook some statements
that looking back on it now were were indefensible
and i knew that they I know they didn't warrant
justification at the time, but when we make a
decision, we find ways of determining that that's
the right decision and we do continue to overlook.
Yeah, yeah, sure. And just looking back on it
now, do you think your enthusiasm for Trump was
more heart -centered or head -centered or a little
bit of both? Predominantly heart -centered. You
know, there was not a lot of consideration given
to political philosophy or ideology. That's something
about MAGA that I think is important for listeners.
From my perspective, if I can offer, the value
I bring is experiential. And ideologically, Nap,
there really is not anything in MAGA that is
shaped by policy. The closest to ideology in
MAGA is a conviction. that liberalism and liberal
democracy are the sources of all of our personal
and national ills. Now, I didn't think of it
exactly that way when I was in MAGA. It's not
thought about it precisely that way right now,
but that's what the shared common enemy of being
in the MAGA community was that belief about democratic
institutions, liberalism, and liberal democracy.
So I wasn't giving a lot of... My support wasn't...
really cerebral it was much more emotional leading
with as you say leading with the heart and when
did the doubts start to set in i feel like this
is a self -defense on my part but i want to mention
it because i think it's pertinent to the conversation
there were times privately that i and other mega
americans criticized trump after charlottesville
was an example During COVID, we knew that Trump
was mismanaging COVID. We knew it. But just like
in 16, I was working to get the president reelected.
So while we might censure him, sometimes quite
harshly, privately, we never did it publicly.
Because if you were in MAGA and you criticized
the president publicly, you were exiled as a
MAGA apostate and a heretic. That's why, for
example, any information. that would remotely
refute or challenge the pervasively held mythologies
and beliefs of MAGA, it was shunned. It was kept
out. And I know people are going to hear that,
and I can already feel the response that's coming
from others hearing, oh, it sounds like a cult,
sounds like a cult. MAGA does not fit, in my
view, the definition of a cult, even though I
do agree that there were some cult -like aspects
for me personally. You know, I never took nap
an hour off from MAGA. It was my life. It was
my being, my personhood, my identity. So there
were these factors about COVID. There were the
stolen election lies. I knew that we had lost.
There was January 6th. But the accelerant for
me actually happened in addition to those reasons
in late summer, early fall of 2021. And that's
when my governor, Ron DeSantis, was platforming
anti -vaxxers at his pressers. I didn't think
the COVID vaccine was going to kill anyone. I
admit that I didn't take COVID seriously, but
I didn't think it was a bioweapon. I didn't believe
it was a ploy by the Democratic Party to keep
us from winning reelection. I never believed
that. And I didn't think the election had been
stolen. And then when Ron DeSantis, whom I thought
showed very strong leadership, actually, in fairness
in the first year and a half. All of a sudden,
he's got people who are talking about the vaccine
changing your RNA. That shocked me and created
confusion. And it was at that moment when my
doubts commenced. And I did something after that
that sounds so simple, but it was profoundly
life -altering for me, which was I diversified
my news and information sources. And I started
to learn more about January 6th. And I also started
to understand that people with whom I disagreed
were not the existential threats and enemies
that I had believed them to be. And so I went
through the next many, many months vacillating
between being in and being out. I would have
a doubt. I would hear Trump, for example, talk
about another, he'd have another lie about the
election being stolen. And I would say, can I
really keep supporting this? Of an event at Mar
-a -Lago I went to, for example, and I would
say, no, no, no, we're just we're hitting a rough
patch here. I'm on the right side. Just got to
tough it out. And I would go through that for
many, many months. And then there was early February
of 2022 when the Republican Party called January
6th legitimate political discourse. I didn't
agree with what happened on January 6th. I knew
people who went. I didn't go. I thought it. I
thought it was a purposeless protest. But people
went and rioted against the Capitol. And what
I was actually upset about at the time, Nap,
was not that I knew officers were going to get
hurt. There would be possible casualties. I was
angry that I felt like the insurrectionists were
going to harm our chances of a comeback in 2024.
So my concern wasn't the humanity. It was damage
control and political future. So when I'm going
through my doubts. And we've got the Republican
Party saying legitimate political discourse.
That was another factor for me that just got
me questioning over and over again, can I continue
to align with this? And then the final straw
for me happened May 24, 2022. And that was the
day of the Uvalde school shooting. Now, I'm a
firearm owner. I actually conceal carry a firearm
every day. I'm a believer in responsible ownership.
But I knew that day I'm driving. If you can imagine,
I'm driving white knuckled on the steering wheel
and listening to the reports on the radio about
the school shooting, knowing that children would
be casualties and that there would be many. And
I knew what the Republican response was going
to be to it. It was shortly thereafter, Uvalde,
that I quietly quit and I left. But you know
what? Something was nagging at me. I was always
so unapologetically public in my support for
Trump. I felt that I needed to be unapologetically
public in my renunciation of MAGA. And it was
on August 30th, 2022. That's the exact day. It's
my leaving MAGAversary, as I call it. I wrote
a mea culpa. And in that mea culpa, I said that
I supported Trump for what I thought were the
right reasons, but I was wrong. I wanted to show
remorse and I wanted to apologize to anyone I'd
hurt. And if you can imagine this, I've got my
hand on the mouse. The little arrow is on the
publish button. On one hand, nap, I'm exhilarated.
But on the other hand, I am afraid because I
know that once it's published, it is permanent.
And it was the permanence that made it scary.
But I did it. And the moment that I did it, I
actually never believed that anybody would care.
God's honest truth. I did not think anyone would
care. And as soon as it went online, instantaneously
getting comments, Rich, can you talk to my mother,
my brother, my son, my father, my parents? I
was completely oblivious and naive to just how
many relationships had been torn asunder by the
MAGA movement. But I knew the moment I did it,
Nap, I had no regrets then and no regrets now.
It was the correct decision for me to leave.
Wow. All right. So I want to hear more about
this diversifying your news sources, because
this is something we talk about a lot, about
how we have these media bubbles. There's definitely
a left -wing media bubble that some folks are
in, and then there's the right -wing media bubble.
So what were your news sources before, and then
what happened? How did you diversify those? In
MAGA, most of the media I consumed was media
that I was writing for as an aspiring pundit.
It was the Federalist. It was American thinker,
American greatness. I wrote dozens and dozens
of freelance stories for a site called World
Net Daily run by a guy named Joseph Farah. World
Net Daily is where the Obama birther conspiracy
originated. And I knew that, but I didn't care.
And I wrote all of these stories without pay.
I was never paid for any freelance stories. And
I didn't care about that either, Nat, because
that was part of the crusade. That was part of
the mission as being this patriotic political
soldier who was on the right side of history.
And everybody who was not with us, they were
on the wrong side. So I was, for example, another
site was a site like Breitbart. Breitbart was
the site I consumed more than any other media
during my time in MAGA. Even Fox News, even though
I watched Tucker Carlson, we viewed Fox News
and the MAGA community as CNN and MSNBC white.
We say, oh, it's Vichy, squishy Republican media.
Yeah, it's better than CNN. Yeah, it's better
than, let's say, the New York Times. But Fox
isn't that great. Yeah, they've got sometimes
an anti -Trump slant. This is what we thought
in MAGA. So even though I would watch Tucker
and I would sometimes tune into some of the other
shows, I wasn't really relying on Fox. For me,
it was more the Breitbart's and the other sites
that I was writing for. And of course, at those
sites, I lived in the comment section. Because
that's where you could be a MAGA rabble rouser,
very much so in the comments section. But then
once I diversified my news and information sources,
you start to discover facts that challenge what
maybe were sincerely held but incorrect beliefs.
You diversify news and information sources. I
realized, well, Democrats weren't really. coming
for our guns or they weren't importing foreigners
and brown people to replace white people. They
weren't indoctrinating our children into becoming
transgender Marxists, which I don't know what
Groucho, Harpo, Zeppo, Chico and Gummo ever did
to the Republican Party. But, you know, let's
let's keep the Marx name out of there. You know,
and that's what we heard. That's what I believed
in MAGA. And then going from those sources to
just. mainstream then going to mainstream sources
like your new york times and your washington
post and your atlantic right media that's been
around and established for for a century plus
in some cases what you come to learn and as makes
it hard to leave maga is that so much of the
beliefs that that we had accumulated over many
many years turn out to be false reasons that
made it so hard to leave. The first was you're
walking away from a community. MAGA is not a
cult. It is a political community. That's what
it is at its core. I knew that if I left, I'd
be walking away from a second family. And not
just a second family, but one that sometimes
I'm embarrassed to say took precedence over my
own blood family. But the other reason that will
also made it so excruciatingly difficult to leave
is that you had to come to this liberating but
painful realization that so much of what you
believe turned out to be false. And it wasn't
just that it was false, but you created a sincere
persona around these beliefs. And so I like to
paraphrase Ernest Hemingway on this point that
my epiphany. happened gradually and then suddenly
all at once because it was this, there was this
constant turmoil and personal tumult as I wrestled
with having to increasingly understand that what
I believed was wrong. And that's what everyone
who's left MAGA has. gone through to some extent.
And we've got other testimonials. People can
read them at our site, leavingmaga .org. We've
got a very diverse assortment of people who left.
Some were young men. Some were evangelical Christians
who had a crisis of faith and they wound up leaving.
Everyone has an individual experience, but those
who read the testimonials will see some. There's
a leitmotif throughout these stories, which is
It's coming to this conclusion of being mistaken
about something that was so crucial to your identity.
But we decide that because it was wrong that
we change our minds. And as we change our minds,
we evolve and grow as individuals. And that's
what everyone who's left MAG has gone through.
Did you have any friends or family members? that
were non -MAGA, that were concerned about you
and trying to help you as you were going through
this? Yes, yes. In fact, one of the parts of
making amends when I left MAGA is I went to all
of my friends whom I had considered to be an
enemy to me because they were blue voters. And
to understand this nap, it wasn't, for example,
that I... picked up the phone and called many
of my closest blue voting friends and said, we
can't be friends anymore. It's just that I drifted
away from them because I had new friends and
a new second family with those who were in NAGA.
But what I did is I called every one of them
and I said, I accept if you won't. I respect
if you won't accept my apology, but I need to
say that I'm sorry that I thought about you a
certain way because of how you voted. And everybody
accepted my apology. In fact, one in particular
who was very influential to me in college gave
me a lot of second chances that I did not deserve.
He said to me after accepting my apology, Rich,
I always knew that you'd come back. And I bring
this up, Nap, because for those listening who
have friends and family, I am imploring all of
you, please do not give up on those closest to
you. I recently developed and produced a video.
We've got a blueprint that's in a book that we
wrote, which is a free book, no strings attached,
which is a how -to blueprint for friends and
family on how to talk to friends and family who
are in MAGA. And I know it's a tough ask. to
request of people who are not in MAGA to go and
re -engage their friends and family. But the
ones who are not in MAGA, I view them as our
allies right now, because we're going to need
their empathy to show those who are in MAGA that
as they start to have doubts, which I prognosticate
is going to happen, we want to give them an exit
ramp. We want to show them that there's a way
out. There's a new community at Leaving MAGA
where you can come in and join us without judgment,
without ostracization. So I'm very thankful that
I have a wonderful assortment of friends who
realized that even though they didn't agree with
my politics, they never gave up on me and they
welcomed me back into their lives. Yeah, that's
great. I mean, you're definitely on the right
podcast. And I think a lot of our supporters
have come to us because they have friends and
family members who they love, who they care about
and that they're concerned about because they're
going down this road of political extremism.
And they just want some help, want to understand
what to do about it. And, you know, the first
thing I say is understand you're not alone. This
is a lot of people are going through this and
you can find a community of folks. who are also
going through this and can help with resources.
So that sounds like a great resource. We will
definitely work to share it as much as we can.
You had mentioned that we met at the principal's
first conference. So this is kind of related
to what I wanted to say next. So at the principal's
first conference, I heard you get some remarks
on that opening night. And one of the things
was you said, don't give up on your MAGA friends.
And there was kind of like a little, like a moan.
I don't know if there was actual booze, but it's
kind of like, oh, throughout the audience. It
was, I was a little frustrated at hearing that
or disappointed in hearing that. And it was,
I call it like the Joe Walsh wing of principals
first. Joe Walsh, the congressman who's always
like, you know. Yeah, they're lost. You can't
do anything. Joe's an organized crazy. I joked
with him about that. I didn't get a chance to
see him speak as I was at our table, but I did
hear the groans. They were audible. It was not
unexpected, but I felt compelled to mention it.
because i know when i asked the question how
many show of hands who has friends and family
i did not see anyone without a hand up yeah pretty
much everyone i saw in the sea of people raised
their hands yeah and i can understand how frustrating
it could be if you know for like 10 years you've
been like working on your you know worried about
your uncle or whoever it is and uh And, you know,
and you don't see any hope. But there is always
hope. I just heard last week through our network,
somebody who had been in MAGA, somebody's father
who had been in MAGA this whole time. And all
of a sudden, he left. And you know what it was?
It was the Zelensky Oval Office meeting. It's
like he watched that. And all of a sudden, it's
like the light came on. It's like, oh. That's
who Trump is, you know. You got to introduce
me to this person. I need to talk to him because
if he's willing to share his story publicly,
I want to give him an outlet to do that. I'll
reach out and see if they're willing to do that.
Yeah, that would be great to do that, to speak
with him, because that's what we're doing as
an organization. You know, we're telling these
stories of people who left. And, you know, one
question in that how -to blueprint actually is
centered on values. And one of the questions
is, what were what were your what did you consider
your values to be before Trump and MAGA came
on the political scene? And I think for a lot
of people in MAGA, that's a question that isn't
it's meant to lower the defenses and is not one
that it's not a question that is designed to
cast aspersions on them. It's to get them thinking
about, you know, what were my values before Trump
and MAGA came along? And then it's an opening
to to try to. navigate are those are those values
affirmed by mag and by trump and when people
start thinking about their values then they think
about themselves because that's the only way
to to ultimately get someone to act is that they
have to feel like it affects their lives that's
something that it fair unfair is was one of the
challenges the democratic party had in this election
is that there just wasn't enough of i feel your
pain and I don't know if the outcome would have
been different if there had been more. I feel
your pain, but I can't I don't see how it would
have hurt our efforts. You know, and I was a
I was a co -chair here in Florida for Republicans
for Harris, because even though I'm not a Republican
now and I wasn't before Trump, I was a Republican
under his first presidency. So as that surrogate,
you know, I'd have these conversations about.
where Republicans were, where Democrats were.
And I remember feeling like as a surrogate at
the time, I just remember thinking we we are
not respecting enough that people are feeling
pain economically. And that's not I'm not saying
that was Joe's and Kamala's fault, but it never
hurt anyone to run the Bill Clinton play of I
feel your pain. And we didn't do that. You know,
and the Republicans. Maybe not in quite that
much of an articulate way, in a cogent way, but
they still did it more frequently than did the
Democrats. Okay. And we still have a little bit
of time. Is there anything else from the blueprint
you'd like to share for someone who's trying
to reach somebody in MAGA? Yeah, be sure. Reach
out to us. You can actually email me directly
at rich at leavingmaga .org. At our site, leavingmaga
.org is where you can connect with us. I will
make sure anyone who follows up with me directly,
I will get them the video and the blueprint.
We're in the process of getting it uploaded to
our site. So between now and then, anyone who
wants it, I want to make sure they're not kept
waiting. So just reach out to me directly. Let
me know that you heard us here, and I will get
you the video, and I'll get you the how -to.
And I would ask everyone who decides to watch
and follow this how -to, I want... I want feedback
from it. I want to know if it's working, if they
feel like it's making progress. A lot of leaving
MAGA's work, admittedly, is learning on the job.
So I'm trying to, the labyrinth of how to get
through to MAGA people is one that I don't proclaim
to think that I've mastered. And everyone's feedback
is extremely valuable to me because we're always
trying to fine tune all the techniques and the
approach. And if this is your first time listening
to the American Values Coalition podcast and
you want to learn more about our organization,
head to AmericanValues .org. You can sign up
for our weekly newsletter just by clicking on
newsletter there as well. If you're watching
the video feed, you may be admiring my Disagree
Be Friends t -shirt. Love it. You can get that
also at our store. Just click on the store there
at AmericanValues .org. It's great for Family
reunions, you know, any sort of group to get
together where there might be a mixed audience.
I have one more question for you before we leave,
Rich. Suppose somebody found this podcast who
were actually in MAGA, but maybe starting to
have some doubts. So they're just curious. What's
your message to somebody who's listening who
is still a MAGA supporter? Sure. I would like
to emphasize to that person that I don't believe
that he or she is a racist or Nazi or misogynist,
that I think deep down that they are a good person.
If they're having doubts, I would ask them to
consider listening to those doubts and knowing.
that if they were to go through their own odyssey
of potentially and inevitably leaving MAGA, that
they have a community with us at Leaving MAGA
of like -minded individuals, where there is no
ideological purity test for anyone who decides
they want to become a member of our community.
But I would really stress and emphasize that
they listen to their conscience, they listen
to those doubts, don't suppress them. Because
listening to those doubts is how eventually we
grow to make the decisions that we think are
best for our life. So for anyone who's hearing
it, who maybe is MAGA or having doubts, get in
touch. Get in touch. Let's talk. I want to talk
to you without any kind of judgment. Because
that's the work that we're doing now, NAP. We
are as much as we are about friends and family,
we are also very much for those who are in the
MAGA community right now. So all are welcome
at our group. The group is leaving MAGA. Thanks
for joining the ABC podcast. Yeah, it was my
pleasure. Thanks for having me on that.