We had this gentleman on a few weeks ago to talk
about a word, a phrase, a statement, but a group
that he's put together. It's the founder of Leaving
MAGA, and that would be none other than Rich
Logis, who's joining us this morning. Along with
Rich is, I don't know if I want to say a member,
but certainly one who made the change, who actually
left MAGA, Stefania Messina. Welcome to both
of you to the show this morning. Hey, Richard.
Good morning. Good to be with you again. Good
to be with you, Rich. Glad you're doing well.
Stephanie, are you there? Yes. Good morning.
Good to be with you. Good morning. Glad you're
with us. So, Rich, good to be with you again.
Glad you're with us. And I tell you that after
the last time you were on the show. There were
so many people on social media that were like,
wait a minute, you two guys are connected and
talking and working together and all that good
stuff. And it was just kind of funny. I mean,
you probably saw some of that as well. Like,
hey, whoa, wait a minute. So take a moment, Rich.
So for those who weren't able to hear you when
you were on last time and for those who. I want
to know more about you right out of the gate.
Let's talk about you. Let's talk about leaving
MAGA as a group. And then let's talk a little
bit about Stephanie's journey. I want to thank
Stefania also for being with us today. She is
one of Leaving MAGA's leaders. And for those
who are meeting me for the first time here on
the airwaves, I was someone who was more than
just a partisan Trump voter. a MAGA activist.
I wrote part of the call script for the campaign.
I was a volunteer. I was a MAGA pundit with MAGA
Friendly Media. And it was in the summer of 2021
when I started to question my belief system and
my support for Trump, MAGA, and my governor,
Ron DeSantis. And over the course of that year,
I had to struggle with the reality. that I had
been wrong about so many of my beliefs and my
convictions. And two of the reasons that it was
so difficult to walk away, Richard, was number
one, that acknowledgement that I had created
a genuine but mistaken public persona based in
MAGA lies and falsehoods. And second, that it's
really difficult to walk away from a community.
And that's what MAGA is. MAGA is a community.
Last year, I founded Leaving MAGA as a new community
for people who leave, for people who are having
some doubts about their support for the president,
and also for friends and family of those who
are still in the thrall of MAGA. We have an e
-book, which is free, no strings attached, at
our site, leavingmaga .org. And in that book,
I include a blueprint on how friends and family
can look to rejuvenate. their relationships that
they had pre -Trump with those closest to them.
So I founded Leaving MAGA as a new destination
because I believe, Richard, that even for someone
who might want to leave MAGA, if they don't have
a place to go on an exit and off -ramp, they
will most likely not leave MAGA and will stay
even though they know they should not. Wow. That's
so profound. And I want to come back to something
that you said here. today, and you said it before,
though I supported Trump and MAGA for what I
thought were the right reasons, I was wrong and
will work as long as necessary to make amends.
One of the big comments that I get, or let me
not say comments, but one of the areas of conversation
that I get often is when someone is finally awakened,
if you will, someone kind of realizes that they
thought they were part of MAGA for the right
reasons, they thought they were following Trump
for the right reason, then they realized that
they were wrong. For folks who don't understand
the psychological part of this and the emotional
part of this, it can be a process for a lot of
people because it's all about, and I said this
to you before, you created a bridge for people
that don't know where to go when they finally
do decide. hey, I got to get away from this.
If they don't have a place to go, then they'll
stay where they are. And it's sort of like a
boat that doesn't, if it doesn't know where to
sail next to, it's probably not just going to
jump out in open water. It's going to stay moored
to attach to the port that it's at. So what you're
doing is giving people a bridge. And one of the
things that I believe so many people have to
do. that are leaving MAGA is that they have to
not only admit that they were wrong, but they
also have to, in many ways, make amends to the
people that have been harmed by their decisions.
And that's where your blueprint seems to come
in to assist in that process. Is that correct?
Yes, it is exactly right. And while leaving MAGA
does not have any kind of ideological purity
test, To really fully leave and to sever oneself
from MAGA, one must take responsibility for any
past actions and rhetoric that may have hurt
others. And while I don't defend any ignorance
myself or others, Richard, I will say that I
do believe deep down that most MAGA Americans
are good people. But I believe that they have
had their normal and natural fears and concerns,
which all of us share. I believe they've had
them exploited and manipulated, and they've been
led astray by the president and the Republican
Party. And I would stress to listeners that I
think GOP and MAGA are interchangeable. When
I was in MAGA, it was a fantasy of ours to kill
the Republican Party and supplant it with the
MAGA Party. And that, unfortunately, has been
achieved. Do you think, Rich, and this is a question
that's come up to me or been presented to me.
When you say that they were that many people
were deceived, they were misled and all those
things. Do you think they were predisposed because
of their bias already to go in that direction?
I mean, this is to put it in not soft language,
a racist. that's been raised to be a racist or
a sexist that's been raised to be a sexist just
needs to be tapped on the shoulder, i .e. tricked
by the president and the GOP, and away they go.
So there's got to be some predisposition there
already, right? I think that is applicable to
some, but I think there are more, Richard, who
have been conditioned to believe over the course
of many, many years of... Republican and right
-wing lies that liberalism is the source of our
personal and national ills. And in addition to
liberalism and liberal democracy, that I think
so many have had their beliefs shaped into thinking
that. And if one thinks that, then it's very
easy to, over time... believe that something
other than democracy is a way and democratic
process is a way of resolving our disputes so
there's no question that like any group there
are some bad people in it but i i think it's
i think it runs deeper than that and i i think
that what we see with maga is is living proof
that over time lies work and The president is
not some kind of propagandist mastermind. What
he is is shameless. And there's never been, I
think it's accurate to say in my view, that there's
never been more of a shameless public figure
than the president. And it's very hard to compete
against shamelessness, but we still need to do
it. And one of the ways we do that is tackling
mis - and disinformation. That's why the Democratic
Party needs to start doing their own national
town halls. Since Republican elected officials
won't do it, that's an opportunity for the Democratic
Party. Man, Rich, I've been saying that for weeks
now, where there's an opening. If a Republican
elected official isn't going to show up to do
a town hall, then the Democrats should step into
that void right now. And ALC spoke loudly to
that last Friday, that she's ready to go. And
we've got some information we're going to talk
about later this week. Stefania. Take a moment,
and again, welcome to the show. Rich and I got
off on our direction. I don't want to leave you
just going, guys, I have something to say. So
my apologies there. But, Stefania, take a moment,
take a few moments, and share with us your journey,
the in and the out, and where you are now. So
I do want to pick up on something that you both
discussed, and that was manipulation. You said,
are there some underpinnings? MAGA followers
that we can look to. And although I share all
of the sentiments that Rich has detailed, that
is why I am a part of this organization, because
I feel it is so important for people to realize
that the divisiveness is created by design to
keep us separated, and that the only way we are
going to find common ground is to actively seek
it out. And that is what I think is so important
about leaving MAGA. But back to the manipulation.
I was a member of the evangelical church beginning
in 2014. And at that time, Trump was not a figure
in the church. And it wasn't until about 2016,
of course, when he really hit the scene in the
church. And by 2017, unbeknownst to me, I had
been fully indoctrinated into Christian nationalism.
And the essence of that is that our churches
were collectively teaching us that this was a
Christian nation under attack by Satan and that
abortion and gay marriage were cursing the land
and that Donald Trump had been chosen by God
to save America. And by 2017, that was a fully
cemented idea within the church. And that is
why it is my firm belief that that is where MAGA
was truly born. And that is where the core of
it is burning. That's where the lifeblood is.
And so... In 2021, after COVID and after a series
of events, I left my church when I finally realized
that it no longer represented the love of Jesus.
Not after COVID, not after George Floyd. We realized
it was no longer a safe space for our family,
and we left. And leaving gave me the space, gave
my husband, gave us, our family, the space to
realize just how deeply we had been lied to and
manipulated. And so today I am still a Christian.
I practice my Christianity, however, more authentically
with Jesus -like empathy and love that MAGA anti
-Christ leaders like Elon Musk and Donald Trump
openly declare to be a weakness. So like Jesus,
flip the tables in the temple. I am standing
here flipping the narrative of MAGA in the church
because those two things are mutually exclusive.
Wow. Stefania is an extraordinarily powerful
statement because a lot of people won't go there.
They won't talk about their faith and how their
faith was, um, abrupted. uh and and interrupted
by maga and has taken hold a lot of people don't
want to go there because they're worried i have
to ask you this question they're worried that
if they step up and talk about how this is not
of fill in the void christ of allah of buddha
of of spirituality if you don't even want to
go down the road of a specific you know you know
christianity as it were it has become hard and
harder because you said it's rooted now in the
church. So talk a little bit more about that
experience and how that made you feel. Yeah,
absolutely. So my husband and I, my husband had
been training to be a pastor in the church. As
I said, we became saved and entered the church
in 2014. My husband was from a long line of pastors.
Grandmother and grandfather were both pastors
in East Detroit, Michigan. His father, Sal Messina,
was a prison minister in Detroit. And so he passed
away in 1998. And my family was long entrenched
in the evangelical church. And so that was a
place where when we entered into, we felt very
safe and we felt very accepted, especially as
a family. We have five young boys while ranging
in age from six to 19. And so the church offers
this space that does feel safe. in a modern America
where there are very few free and safe third
spaces. And the church is kind of one of those
last existing places in America. And we were
all in. We became leadership. Again, my husband
was training to be a pastor. I, a pastor's wife,
I led children's church. I homeschooled my children
for four years pre -COVID. As I said, I was all
in. It was our entire lives. And when we walked
away, we were fully ostracized. A life that we
had built, a community that we had built for
nearly seven years. When we walked away, no one
followed. And we spent three years deconstructing
and rebuilding our lives on our own. And it was
an incredibly dark and difficult time. And that
is why when I met Rich and I learned about Weaving
MAGA, why I had to become involved with the organization.
Because it doesn't have to be a three -year walk
in the darkness. aided by other people such as
myself who've been through this, because unfortunately,
in my opinion, the American church is no longer
a safe place for families. They refuse to take
stock of what is wrong, and instead they continue
to point the finger outside at the transgender
community, at the gay community. And it is something
that no Jesus -loving Christian should stand
for, because it is the absolute opposite of the
spirit of Jesus. to seek to harm others. Go ahead.
I'm sorry, Stefania. Finish your point. Oh, no.
I just want to say that my message is especially
for white women in the church. And I just beg
you to, I'm sure you put your children first
and that you believe in supporting Trump, that
you are. I believe that at one time as well.
But the stark reality of things is while he in
the Oval Office. blames the transgender community
for all of the woes that are collectively occurring
with our children, he fails to address the biggest
issue. I have four children in public school,
and I hear nothing being done about this epidemic
of gun violence that is now the number one mortality
rate. And so when I look at the faces of my children,
I will do anything to protect them. And so supporting
Donald Trump, Elon Musk, this MAGA movement.
does nothing for our children in reality. What
they tell us it's doing, that's the manipulation.
Those are the lies. And you have to step away
from the echo chamber that is MAGA. You have
to step away in order to be able to realize that.
And so that is what leading MAGA is asking. Just
step away and take a look at this stuff. maybe
you can see that you have been manipulated. It's
not like Rich said necessarily that these are
bad people, but they're people who are likely
damaged from trauma or just from being lied and
manipulated to, and there is a safe place where
they can go and seek this information, and that's
leadingmerida .org. Well, I will say this, and
Rich, before we come back to you, Stefania, one
of the things that I think is incredibly important,
which is why... my instinct to jump in and ask
you a question, Stefania, is that people need
what you just said. Now, I know that Dems got
work to do, and we can talk about that all day
long. That's not the point here. They got a lot
of work to do to make sure things are better
in terms of messaging and all that, like I talked
about in the earlier part of the show. But what
you just said is so incredibly important for
people to hear. And we're probably going to create
some sort of a segment so that people who are
listening to our show can take your message,
Stefania, and pass it on to the people and their
families. Coming back to what Rich just said,
that don't have a bridge. Where do they go? What
do I do? I'm trying to leave this place, but
I don't know where I'm going to go. If I leave,
where do I do? And that's why I feel it's important
to have you guys on. Because, yes, I can throw
all kinds of darts at the MAGA thought process
and belief. And I know that people have been
hoodwinked and people have been taken in and
twisted and manipulated to your point. It does
help tremendously when there is a person who
was there. that can speak about their journey
from where they were. And both of you guys have
different meanings, but at the end of the day,
it's still the same result. And your journey
away from it to something better. And Stefania,
I applaud your guts for calling out a specific
group of people. And I'm unapologetically going
to say this, but specifically calling out white
women in America. Because that voting bloc ultimately
is the voting bloc that got us Donald Trump 2
.0. Tell me I'm wrong. You're not wrong. You're
not wrong. And the irony is they know not what
they do. And I don't want to act as if I am helping
to be over -empathetic to the group that I identify
with. That's not what I seek to do. I believe
that empathy cannot be selective. And so if we
on the left are going to have this dialogue and
we don't want to have empathy for the people
that are in MAGA, which is what I mainly see,
and it's understandable. It's especially understandable
when you are in those minority groups that are
being oppressed, okay? But what I'm seeing is
I can see the struggle and I can understand what
it is that keeps them. in the trenches of MAGA.
And the goal is to turn the needle and to get
as many people out, I guess you could say, as
possible, because that's the strength that Donald
Trump has. He still has strength in numbers.
And he shouldn't, because those people, the women
like me, are actively voting against their own
interests and the interests of their children
every day. And that breaks my heart. And it breaks
my heart that I ever cast my vote. to support
what is going on today. I'm grateful I only did
it once, but it was one time too many. And if
I can help prevent it from happening that third
time that MAGA is hoping to get in there, I will
do my part. And as you said, yes, we all want
to make amends. Any of us who have come out have
that same shame. And that's what shame is for.
It's supposed to drive you to change. It shouldn't
be something we shy away from. It should be something
we face. and do something about and just seek
to right the wrongs as they've shown themselves
to us. Yeah. Stefania, your voice is powerful
in this space, and I appreciate you taking the
time to be with us. Thank you for having me.
Oh, absolutely, and have the guts to speak the
truth. What you thought was truth that wasn't,
that was a lie and manipulation to the journey
to where you are speaking the truth unapologetically.
I can feel that you're unapologetic about where
you are right now and what you've learned and
what the real truth is. So big ups to you for
that. Rich, wrap us up a little bit again, you
know, how folks can find the organization and
what's in your heart right now. Well, thank you.
Everyone can visit us at leavingmaga .org. And
we've got all of our media, our socials. We've
got our e -book I mentioned there. And also everyone
can read an in -depth testimonial Stefania gave
along with the video conversation she and I had.
And I just want to recognize the intrepidity
that it takes for what she's done. And last time
I was here. We were joined by Courtney Ray. So
when I think about Stefania and Courtney, I believe
they embody the strong woman who broke free from
MAGA. And I think in Stefania's case, there's
a particular credibility she has with people
of faith. She went through a crisis of faith
herself. And what that credibility does is it
gives her authority to show. that those of us
here at Leaving Maga, we are not anti -faith.
We are not seeking to abridge anyone's right
to freely worship. And it's why we actually use
a lot of religious imagery. And with Stefania,
she had her own road to Damascus moment where
the scales fell from her eyes. And what I will
say to listeners is that this is going to be
a grind. It's going to be grueling and arduous.
To quote the book of Isaiah, we're going to bring
good news to the afflicted. And to quote the
book of Romans, we're going to be patient in
our affliction. And I say that as an excommunicated
Catholic. My wife doesn't like that joke, but
I say it. Rich, I'm sorry, but you aren't alone
in that space. There's a number of excommunicated
folks of religion, but they've maintained their
faith and their spirituality. And I would say
that there's probably more people like that and
that are leaning into their faith and leaning
into their spirituality and not a singular religious
group and what's happened with that. And you
guys both have probably experienced is that there's
a bigger, more open conversation when people
can lean into faith and spirituality than a singular
religious group. And that's what I'm hearing
from both of you. I thank you both for being
with us, and I thank you for the organization,
Rich, that you founded, and Stefania for your
courage to speak out and keep fighting in this
space. We got you. We know it's tough, and part
of my responsibility is to bring the tough but
the good to what we do with our show. So it's
a joy to have you both with us again, and I know
you guys will be back with us again in the month
of April if we've got things on point. Is that
correct? Yeah, I'll be back. And I'm also happy
to have accompanying me others who have left.
And again, I just want to recognize Stefania's
bravery in doing what she's done and continuing
to lead in our organization. Again, people can
find us at leavingmaga .org. And as always, Richard,
it was a pleasure being with you. Absolutely.
Thanks, Rich Logis. And thanks, Stefania Messina
for being with us this morning. You guys have
a great day and a successful week. Okay. Thanks
so much. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Bye
now.