WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.879 We had this gentleman on a few weeks ago to talk 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:08.679 about a word, a phrase, a statement, but a group 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:11.179 that he's put together. It's the founder of Leaving 00:00:11.179 --> 00:00:14.480 MAGA, and that would be none other than Rich 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:18.000 Logis, who's joining us this morning. Along with 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.260 Rich is, I don't know if I want to say a member, 00:00:22.379 --> 00:00:25.620 but certainly one who made the change, who actually 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:29.100 left MAGA, Stefania Messina. Welcome to both 00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:32.939 of you to the show this morning. Hey, Richard. 00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:35.060 Good morning. Good to be with you again. Good 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:36.859 to be with you, Rich. Glad you're doing well. 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.100 Stephanie, are you there? Yes. Good morning. 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:42.320 Good to be with you. Good morning. Glad you're 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:45.000 with us. So, Rich, good to be with you again. 00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:47.280 Glad you're with us. And I tell you that after 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:50.359 the last time you were on the show. There were 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:52.899 so many people on social media that were like, 00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:56.299 wait a minute, you two guys are connected and 00:00:56.299 --> 00:00:59.100 talking and working together and all that good 00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:00.780 stuff. And it was just kind of funny. I mean, 00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:02.380 you probably saw some of that as well. Like, 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:06.480 hey, whoa, wait a minute. So take a moment, Rich. 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.900 So for those who weren't able to hear you when 00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:12.090 you were on last time and for those who. I want 00:01:12.090 --> 00:01:13.370 to know more about you right out of the gate. 00:01:13.430 --> 00:01:15.609 Let's talk about you. Let's talk about leaving 00:01:15.609 --> 00:01:19.049 MAGA as a group. And then let's talk a little 00:01:19.049 --> 00:01:24.230 bit about Stephanie's journey. I want to thank 00:01:24.230 --> 00:01:27.010 Stefania also for being with us today. She is 00:01:27.010 --> 00:01:31.189 one of Leaving MAGA's leaders. And for those 00:01:31.189 --> 00:01:33.170 who are meeting me for the first time here on 00:01:33.170 --> 00:01:36.450 the airwaves, I was someone who was more than 00:01:36.450 --> 00:01:40.170 just a partisan Trump voter. a MAGA activist. 00:01:40.269 --> 00:01:42.310 I wrote part of the call script for the campaign. 00:01:42.549 --> 00:01:46.969 I was a volunteer. I was a MAGA pundit with MAGA 00:01:46.969 --> 00:01:51.750 Friendly Media. And it was in the summer of 2021 00:01:51.750 --> 00:01:56.629 when I started to question my belief system and 00:01:56.629 --> 00:01:58.849 my support for Trump, MAGA, and my governor, 00:01:58.909 --> 00:02:02.370 Ron DeSantis. And over the course of that year, 00:02:02.549 --> 00:02:07.959 I had to struggle with the reality. that I had 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:10.800 been wrong about so many of my beliefs and my 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.419 convictions. And two of the reasons that it was 00:02:14.419 --> 00:02:17.460 so difficult to walk away, Richard, was number 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:20.719 one, that acknowledgement that I had created 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:26.280 a genuine but mistaken public persona based in 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.939 MAGA lies and falsehoods. And second, that it's 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:32.000 really difficult to walk away from a community. 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:35.159 And that's what MAGA is. MAGA is a community. 00:02:36.349 --> 00:02:40.349 Last year, I founded Leaving MAGA as a new community 00:02:40.349 --> 00:02:44.270 for people who leave, for people who are having 00:02:44.270 --> 00:02:47.569 some doubts about their support for the president, 00:02:47.689 --> 00:02:51.409 and also for friends and family of those who 00:02:51.409 --> 00:02:53.930 are still in the thrall of MAGA. We have an e 00:02:53.930 --> 00:02:56.189 -book, which is free, no strings attached, at 00:02:56.189 --> 00:02:58.810 our site, leavingmaga .org. And in that book, 00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:02.909 I include a blueprint on how friends and family 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:06.360 can look to rejuvenate. their relationships that 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.699 they had pre -Trump with those closest to them. 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:14.400 So I founded Leaving MAGA as a new destination 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.960 because I believe, Richard, that even for someone 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:19.699 who might want to leave MAGA, if they don't have 00:03:19.699 --> 00:03:22.340 a place to go on an exit and off -ramp, they 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:25.240 will most likely not leave MAGA and will stay 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.680 even though they know they should not. Wow. That's 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:30.860 so profound. And I want to come back to something 00:03:30.860 --> 00:03:34.509 that you said here. today, and you said it before, 00:03:34.810 --> 00:03:38.669 though I supported Trump and MAGA for what I 00:03:38.669 --> 00:03:42.009 thought were the right reasons, I was wrong and 00:03:42.009 --> 00:03:44.110 will work as long as necessary to make amends. 00:03:44.189 --> 00:03:47.650 One of the big comments that I get, or let me 00:03:47.650 --> 00:03:50.569 not say comments, but one of the areas of conversation 00:03:50.569 --> 00:03:56.469 that I get often is when someone is finally awakened, 00:03:56.550 --> 00:03:58.930 if you will, someone kind of realizes that they 00:03:58.930 --> 00:04:02.689 thought they were part of MAGA for the right 00:04:02.689 --> 00:04:03.990 reasons, they thought they were following Trump 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:05.789 for the right reason, then they realized that 00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:10.050 they were wrong. For folks who don't understand 00:04:10.050 --> 00:04:12.150 the psychological part of this and the emotional 00:04:12.150 --> 00:04:15.590 part of this, it can be a process for a lot of 00:04:15.590 --> 00:04:17.949 people because it's all about, and I said this 00:04:17.949 --> 00:04:20.829 to you before, you created a bridge for people 00:04:20.829 --> 00:04:22.970 that don't know where to go when they finally 00:04:22.970 --> 00:04:26.319 do decide. hey, I got to get away from this. 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:28.220 If they don't have a place to go, then they'll 00:04:28.220 --> 00:04:30.439 stay where they are. And it's sort of like a 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:32.199 boat that doesn't, if it doesn't know where to 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:34.579 sail next to, it's probably not just going to 00:04:34.579 --> 00:04:36.680 jump out in open water. It's going to stay moored 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:43.220 to attach to the port that it's at. So what you're 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:45.819 doing is giving people a bridge. And one of the 00:04:45.819 --> 00:04:48.199 things that I believe so many people have to 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:52.540 do. that are leaving MAGA is that they have to 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:55.220 not only admit that they were wrong, but they 00:04:55.220 --> 00:04:59.079 also have to, in many ways, make amends to the 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:02.100 people that have been harmed by their decisions. 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.259 And that's where your blueprint seems to come 00:05:04.259 --> 00:05:07.819 in to assist in that process. Is that correct? 00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:13.680 Yes, it is exactly right. And while leaving MAGA 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.500 does not have any kind of ideological purity 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:21.100 test, To really fully leave and to sever oneself 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:25.740 from MAGA, one must take responsibility for any 00:05:25.740 --> 00:05:28.139 past actions and rhetoric that may have hurt 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:32.060 others. And while I don't defend any ignorance 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:34.980 myself or others, Richard, I will say that I 00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:38.620 do believe deep down that most MAGA Americans 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:41.600 are good people. But I believe that they have 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.819 had their normal and natural fears and concerns, 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.149 which all of us share. I believe they've had 00:05:48.149 --> 00:05:50.550 them exploited and manipulated, and they've been 00:05:50.550 --> 00:05:53.569 led astray by the president and the Republican 00:05:53.569 --> 00:05:57.709 Party. And I would stress to listeners that I 00:05:57.709 --> 00:06:02.149 think GOP and MAGA are interchangeable. When 00:06:02.149 --> 00:06:05.290 I was in MAGA, it was a fantasy of ours to kill 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:07.389 the Republican Party and supplant it with the 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:10.509 MAGA Party. And that, unfortunately, has been 00:06:10.509 --> 00:06:13.980 achieved. Do you think, Rich, and this is a question 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:16.660 that's come up to me or been presented to me. 00:06:17.019 --> 00:06:19.620 When you say that they were that many people 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:21.279 were deceived, they were misled and all those 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.540 things. Do you think they were predisposed because 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:26.620 of their bias already to go in that direction? 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.360 I mean, this is to put it in not soft language, 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:35.029 a racist. that's been raised to be a racist or 00:06:35.029 --> 00:06:37.810 a sexist that's been raised to be a sexist just 00:06:37.810 --> 00:06:40.269 needs to be tapped on the shoulder, i .e. tricked 00:06:40.269 --> 00:06:43.970 by the president and the GOP, and away they go. 00:06:44.329 --> 00:06:47.509 So there's got to be some predisposition there 00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:51.790 already, right? I think that is applicable to 00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.310 some, but I think there are more, Richard, who 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:58.410 have been conditioned to believe over the course 00:06:58.410 --> 00:07:01.819 of many, many years of... Republican and right 00:07:01.819 --> 00:07:07.480 -wing lies that liberalism is the source of our 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:11.040 personal and national ills. And in addition to 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:14.399 liberalism and liberal democracy, that I think 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.459 so many have had their beliefs shaped into thinking 00:07:18.459 --> 00:07:22.519 that. And if one thinks that, then it's very 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:26.339 easy to, over time... believe that something 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:29.139 other than democracy is a way and democratic 00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:32.740 process is a way of resolving our disputes so 00:07:32.740 --> 00:07:35.259 there's no question that like any group there 00:07:35.259 --> 00:07:38.000 are some bad people in it but i i think it's 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.879 i think it runs deeper than that and i i think 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.879 that what we see with maga is is living proof 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:49.310 that over time lies work and The president is 00:07:49.310 --> 00:07:52.269 not some kind of propagandist mastermind. What 00:07:52.269 --> 00:07:55.910 he is is shameless. And there's never been, I 00:07:55.910 --> 00:07:59.009 think it's accurate to say in my view, that there's 00:07:59.009 --> 00:08:01.189 never been more of a shameless public figure 00:08:01.189 --> 00:08:04.329 than the president. And it's very hard to compete 00:08:04.329 --> 00:08:06.350 against shamelessness, but we still need to do 00:08:06.350 --> 00:08:09.490 it. And one of the ways we do that is tackling 00:08:09.490 --> 00:08:12.350 mis - and disinformation. That's why the Democratic 00:08:12.350 --> 00:08:14.769 Party needs to start doing their own national 00:08:14.769 --> 00:08:19.339 town halls. Since Republican elected officials 00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:21.540 won't do it, that's an opportunity for the Democratic 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:23.980 Party. Man, Rich, I've been saying that for weeks 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.339 now, where there's an opening. If a Republican 00:08:26.339 --> 00:08:29.699 elected official isn't going to show up to do 00:08:29.699 --> 00:08:32.659 a town hall, then the Democrats should step into 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:35.740 that void right now. And ALC spoke loudly to 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:38.700 that last Friday, that she's ready to go. And 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:41.059 we've got some information we're going to talk 00:08:41.059 --> 00:08:44.299 about later this week. Stefania. Take a moment, 00:08:44.419 --> 00:08:46.220 and again, welcome to the show. Rich and I got 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:49.259 off on our direction. I don't want to leave you 00:08:49.259 --> 00:08:53.179 just going, guys, I have something to say. So 00:08:53.179 --> 00:08:57.960 my apologies there. But, Stefania, take a moment, 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.019 take a few moments, and share with us your journey, 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:05.240 the in and the out, and where you are now. So 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.299 I do want to pick up on something that you both 00:09:07.299 --> 00:09:09.860 discussed, and that was manipulation. You said, 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:12.529 are there some underpinnings? MAGA followers 00:09:12.529 --> 00:09:16.269 that we can look to. And although I share all 00:09:16.269 --> 00:09:19.470 of the sentiments that Rich has detailed, that 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:22.590 is why I am a part of this organization, because 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:25.750 I feel it is so important for people to realize 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:29.629 that the divisiveness is created by design to 00:09:29.629 --> 00:09:32.610 keep us separated, and that the only way we are 00:09:32.610 --> 00:09:34.929 going to find common ground is to actively seek 00:09:34.929 --> 00:09:37.009 it out. And that is what I think is so important 00:09:37.009 --> 00:09:40.149 about leaving MAGA. But back to the manipulation. 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:45.320 I was a member of the evangelical church beginning 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.700 in 2014. And at that time, Trump was not a figure 00:09:49.700 --> 00:09:52.460 in the church. And it wasn't until about 2016, 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:55.940 of course, when he really hit the scene in the 00:09:55.940 --> 00:10:01.700 church. And by 2017, unbeknownst to me, I had 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:04.139 been fully indoctrinated into Christian nationalism. 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:07.340 And the essence of that is that our churches 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:10.120 were collectively teaching us that this was a 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:13.200 Christian nation under attack by Satan and that 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.960 abortion and gay marriage were cursing the land 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:18.419 and that Donald Trump had been chosen by God 00:10:18.419 --> 00:10:21.779 to save America. And by 2017, that was a fully 00:10:21.779 --> 00:10:24.100 cemented idea within the church. And that is 00:10:24.100 --> 00:10:27.899 why it is my firm belief that that is where MAGA 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:30.299 was truly born. And that is where the core of 00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:33.139 it is burning. That's where the lifeblood is. 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.120 And so... In 2021, after COVID and after a series 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.899 of events, I left my church when I finally realized 00:10:40.899 --> 00:10:43.799 that it no longer represented the love of Jesus. 00:10:44.179 --> 00:10:48.419 Not after COVID, not after George Floyd. We realized 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:50.639 it was no longer a safe space for our family, 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.879 and we left. And leaving gave me the space, gave 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.120 my husband, gave us, our family, the space to 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.360 realize just how deeply we had been lied to and 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.559 manipulated. And so today I am still a Christian. 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:10.000 I practice my Christianity, however, more authentically 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:14.000 with Jesus -like empathy and love that MAGA anti 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.759 -Christ leaders like Elon Musk and Donald Trump 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.179 openly declare to be a weakness. So like Jesus, 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.620 flip the tables in the temple. I am standing 00:11:23.620 --> 00:11:26.159 here flipping the narrative of MAGA in the church 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:30.100 because those two things are mutually exclusive. 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.090 Wow. Stefania is an extraordinarily powerful 00:11:35.090 --> 00:11:37.529 statement because a lot of people won't go there. 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:39.230 They won't talk about their faith and how their 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:43.740 faith was, um, abrupted. uh and and interrupted 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.899 by maga and has taken hold a lot of people don't 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:49.059 want to go there because they're worried i have 00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:51.299 to ask you this question they're worried that 00:11:51.299 --> 00:11:53.779 if they step up and talk about how this is not 00:11:53.779 --> 00:11:58.639 of fill in the void christ of allah of buddha 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.940 of of spirituality if you don't even want to 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:03.639 go down the road of a specific you know you know 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.940 christianity as it were it has become hard and 00:12:07.940 --> 00:12:11.539 harder because you said it's rooted now in the 00:12:11.539 --> 00:12:13.879 church. So talk a little bit more about that 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.600 experience and how that made you feel. Yeah, 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.440 absolutely. So my husband and I, my husband had 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.139 been training to be a pastor in the church. As 00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:25.940 I said, we became saved and entered the church 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:29.600 in 2014. My husband was from a long line of pastors. 00:12:30.590 --> 00:12:32.610 Grandmother and grandfather were both pastors 00:12:32.610 --> 00:12:35.429 in East Detroit, Michigan. His father, Sal Messina, 00:12:35.529 --> 00:12:37.789 was a prison minister in Detroit. And so he passed 00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:41.029 away in 1998. And my family was long entrenched 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:43.769 in the evangelical church. And so that was a 00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:46.750 place where when we entered into, we felt very 00:12:46.750 --> 00:12:49.909 safe and we felt very accepted, especially as 00:12:49.909 --> 00:12:53.529 a family. We have five young boys while ranging 00:12:53.529 --> 00:12:56.370 in age from six to 19. And so the church offers 00:12:56.370 --> 00:13:00.139 this space that does feel safe. in a modern America 00:13:00.139 --> 00:13:02.879 where there are very few free and safe third 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.340 spaces. And the church is kind of one of those 00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:08.519 last existing places in America. And we were 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.200 all in. We became leadership. Again, my husband 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.980 was training to be a pastor. I, a pastor's wife, 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.299 I led children's church. I homeschooled my children 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:19.779 for four years pre -COVID. As I said, I was all 00:13:19.779 --> 00:13:22.700 in. It was our entire lives. And when we walked 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:26.470 away, we were fully ostracized. A life that we 00:13:26.470 --> 00:13:28.710 had built, a community that we had built for 00:13:28.710 --> 00:13:32.049 nearly seven years. When we walked away, no one 00:13:32.049 --> 00:13:35.450 followed. And we spent three years deconstructing 00:13:35.450 --> 00:13:38.169 and rebuilding our lives on our own. And it was 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:40.990 an incredibly dark and difficult time. And that 00:13:40.990 --> 00:13:45.490 is why when I met Rich and I learned about Weaving 00:13:45.490 --> 00:13:49.450 MAGA, why I had to become involved with the organization. 00:13:49.490 --> 00:13:52.870 Because it doesn't have to be a three -year walk 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:57.480 in the darkness. aided by other people such as 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:59.980 myself who've been through this, because unfortunately, 00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:02.980 in my opinion, the American church is no longer 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:06.059 a safe place for families. They refuse to take 00:14:06.059 --> 00:14:09.000 stock of what is wrong, and instead they continue 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:12.279 to point the finger outside at the transgender 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:16.559 community, at the gay community. And it is something 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.039 that no Jesus -loving Christian should stand 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.799 for, because it is the absolute opposite of the 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:30.720 spirit of Jesus. to seek to harm others. Go ahead. 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.539 I'm sorry, Stefania. Finish your point. Oh, no. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.100 I just want to say that my message is especially 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:39.639 for white women in the church. And I just beg 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:44.019 you to, I'm sure you put your children first 00:14:44.019 --> 00:14:46.059 and that you believe in supporting Trump, that 00:14:46.059 --> 00:14:48.120 you are. I believe that at one time as well. 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:52.360 But the stark reality of things is while he in 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.980 the Oval Office. blames the transgender community 00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:58.379 for all of the woes that are collectively occurring 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:01.519 with our children, he fails to address the biggest 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.820 issue. I have four children in public school, 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.259 and I hear nothing being done about this epidemic 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:11.179 of gun violence that is now the number one mortality 00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:14.519 rate. And so when I look at the faces of my children, 00:15:14.659 --> 00:15:17.879 I will do anything to protect them. And so supporting 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.159 Donald Trump, Elon Musk, this MAGA movement. 00:15:21.929 --> 00:15:25.350 does nothing for our children in reality. What 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:27.870 they tell us it's doing, that's the manipulation. 00:15:28.370 --> 00:15:30.730 Those are the lies. And you have to step away 00:15:30.730 --> 00:15:34.570 from the echo chamber that is MAGA. You have 00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:38.909 to step away in order to be able to realize that. 00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:41.450 And so that is what leading MAGA is asking. Just 00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:46.080 step away and take a look at this stuff. maybe 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.759 you can see that you have been manipulated. It's 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:50.899 not like Rich said necessarily that these are 00:15:50.899 --> 00:15:54.000 bad people, but they're people who are likely 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.120 damaged from trauma or just from being lied and 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.500 manipulated to, and there is a safe place where 00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.340 they can go and seek this information, and that's 00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:07.639 leadingmerida .org. Well, I will say this, and 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.799 Rich, before we come back to you, Stefania, one 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.120 of the things that I think is incredibly important, 00:16:14.259 --> 00:16:17.759 which is why... my instinct to jump in and ask 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.220 you a question, Stefania, is that people need 00:16:21.220 --> 00:16:25.299 what you just said. Now, I know that Dems got 00:16:25.299 --> 00:16:27.679 work to do, and we can talk about that all day 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.440 long. That's not the point here. They got a lot 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:31.879 of work to do to make sure things are better 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:33.539 in terms of messaging and all that, like I talked 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:35.500 about in the earlier part of the show. But what 00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:39.500 you just said is so incredibly important for 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:43.029 people to hear. And we're probably going to create 00:16:43.029 --> 00:16:46.070 some sort of a segment so that people who are 00:16:46.070 --> 00:16:48.730 listening to our show can take your message, 00:16:48.870 --> 00:16:52.049 Stefania, and pass it on to the people and their 00:16:52.049 --> 00:16:54.350 families. Coming back to what Rich just said, 00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:57.110 that don't have a bridge. Where do they go? What 00:16:57.110 --> 00:16:59.470 do I do? I'm trying to leave this place, but 00:16:59.470 --> 00:17:01.649 I don't know where I'm going to go. If I leave, 00:17:01.750 --> 00:17:06.450 where do I do? And that's why I feel it's important 00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:10.599 to have you guys on. Because, yes, I can throw 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.579 all kinds of darts at the MAGA thought process 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.000 and belief. And I know that people have been 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.279 hoodwinked and people have been taken in and 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:22.640 twisted and manipulated to your point. It does 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.640 help tremendously when there is a person who 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.420 was there. that can speak about their journey 00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:30.660 from where they were. And both of you guys have 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:33.240 different meanings, but at the end of the day, 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:36.000 it's still the same result. And your journey 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.180 away from it to something better. And Stefania, 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:44.140 I applaud your guts for calling out a specific 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:47.099 group of people. And I'm unapologetically going 00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:49.680 to say this, but specifically calling out white 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.319 women in America. Because that voting bloc ultimately 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.119 is the voting bloc that got us Donald Trump 2 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:02.579 .0. Tell me I'm wrong. You're not wrong. You're 00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:06.299 not wrong. And the irony is they know not what 00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:10.500 they do. And I don't want to act as if I am helping 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:15.940 to be over -empathetic to the group that I identify 00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:19.650 with. That's not what I seek to do. I believe 00:18:19.650 --> 00:18:22.869 that empathy cannot be selective. And so if we 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:27.309 on the left are going to have this dialogue and 00:18:27.309 --> 00:18:29.490 we don't want to have empathy for the people 00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:31.630 that are in MAGA, which is what I mainly see, 00:18:31.730 --> 00:18:34.170 and it's understandable. It's especially understandable 00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:38.289 when you are in those minority groups that are 00:18:38.289 --> 00:18:40.769 being oppressed, okay? But what I'm seeing is 00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:45.309 I can see the struggle and I can understand what 00:18:45.309 --> 00:18:48.769 it is that keeps them. in the trenches of MAGA. 00:18:48.869 --> 00:18:52.230 And the goal is to turn the needle and to get 00:18:52.230 --> 00:18:55.250 as many people out, I guess you could say, as 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:58.609 possible, because that's the strength that Donald 00:18:58.609 --> 00:19:00.970 Trump has. He still has strength in numbers. 00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:04.890 And he shouldn't, because those people, the women 00:19:04.890 --> 00:19:07.970 like me, are actively voting against their own 00:19:07.970 --> 00:19:09.710 interests and the interests of their children 00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:12.549 every day. And that breaks my heart. And it breaks 00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:17.029 my heart that I ever cast my vote. to support 00:19:17.029 --> 00:19:20.650 what is going on today. I'm grateful I only did 00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:22.730 it once, but it was one time too many. And if 00:19:22.730 --> 00:19:26.049 I can help prevent it from happening that third 00:19:26.049 --> 00:19:29.609 time that MAGA is hoping to get in there, I will 00:19:29.609 --> 00:19:32.609 do my part. And as you said, yes, we all want 00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:35.650 to make amends. Any of us who have come out have 00:19:35.650 --> 00:19:39.589 that same shame. And that's what shame is for. 00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:42.130 It's supposed to drive you to change. It shouldn't 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:44.250 be something we shy away from. It should be something 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:47.720 we face. and do something about and just seek 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.480 to right the wrongs as they've shown themselves 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.980 to us. Yeah. Stefania, your voice is powerful 00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:57.380 in this space, and I appreciate you taking the 00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.019 time to be with us. Thank you for having me. 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.519 Oh, absolutely, and have the guts to speak the 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.599 truth. What you thought was truth that wasn't, 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.079 that was a lie and manipulation to the journey 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.559 to where you are speaking the truth unapologetically. 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:16.380 I can feel that you're unapologetic about where 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.700 you are right now and what you've learned and 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:22.339 what the real truth is. So big ups to you for 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.920 that. Rich, wrap us up a little bit again, you 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.940 know, how folks can find the organization and 00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:33.059 what's in your heart right now. Well, thank you. 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.500 Everyone can visit us at leavingmaga .org. And 00:20:36.500 --> 00:20:39.279 we've got all of our media, our socials. We've 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.720 got our e -book I mentioned there. And also everyone 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:46.500 can read an in -depth testimonial Stefania gave 00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:49.740 along with the video conversation she and I had. 00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:53.859 And I just want to recognize the intrepidity 00:20:53.859 --> 00:20:58.380 that it takes for what she's done. And last time 00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:01.690 I was here. We were joined by Courtney Ray. So 00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:06.609 when I think about Stefania and Courtney, I believe 00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:10.730 they embody the strong woman who broke free from 00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:14.829 MAGA. And I think in Stefania's case, there's 00:21:14.829 --> 00:21:18.190 a particular credibility she has with people 00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:20.609 of faith. She went through a crisis of faith 00:21:20.609 --> 00:21:25.069 herself. And what that credibility does is it 00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:28.589 gives her authority to show. that those of us 00:21:28.589 --> 00:21:30.809 here at Leaving Maga, we are not anti -faith. 00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:33.970 We are not seeking to abridge anyone's right 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:37.349 to freely worship. And it's why we actually use 00:21:37.349 --> 00:21:40.809 a lot of religious imagery. And with Stefania, 00:21:40.869 --> 00:21:43.210 she had her own road to Damascus moment where 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:46.630 the scales fell from her eyes. And what I will 00:21:46.630 --> 00:21:48.910 say to listeners is that this is going to be 00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:51.089 a grind. It's going to be grueling and arduous. 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.160 To quote the book of Isaiah, we're going to bring 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:56.619 good news to the afflicted. And to quote the 00:21:56.619 --> 00:21:59.339 book of Romans, we're going to be patient in 00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:02.599 our affliction. And I say that as an excommunicated 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.880 Catholic. My wife doesn't like that joke, but 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.400 I say it. Rich, I'm sorry, but you aren't alone 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.799 in that space. There's a number of excommunicated 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:17.160 folks of religion, but they've maintained their 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.480 faith and their spirituality. And I would say 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.160 that there's probably more people like that and 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.400 that are leaning into their faith and leaning 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.380 into their spirituality and not a singular religious 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:32.990 group and what's happened with that. And you 00:22:32.990 --> 00:22:35.890 guys both have probably experienced is that there's 00:22:35.890 --> 00:22:38.670 a bigger, more open conversation when people 00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:42.170 can lean into faith and spirituality than a singular 00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:45.130 religious group. And that's what I'm hearing 00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:47.839 from both of you. I thank you both for being 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.519 with us, and I thank you for the organization, 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.839 Rich, that you founded, and Stefania for your 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.059 courage to speak out and keep fighting in this 00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:58.720 space. We got you. We know it's tough, and part 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:01.420 of my responsibility is to bring the tough but 00:23:01.420 --> 00:23:04.200 the good to what we do with our show. So it's 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.440 a joy to have you both with us again, and I know 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.240 you guys will be back with us again in the month 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.119 of April if we've got things on point. Is that 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.910 correct? Yeah, I'll be back. And I'm also happy 00:23:15.910 --> 00:23:20.630 to have accompanying me others who have left. 00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:24.369 And again, I just want to recognize Stefania's 00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:27.369 bravery in doing what she's done and continuing 00:23:27.369 --> 00:23:29.750 to lead in our organization. Again, people can 00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:33.089 find us at leavingmaga .org. And as always, Richard, 00:23:33.150 --> 00:23:35.079 it was a pleasure being with you. Absolutely. 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.920 Thanks, Rich Logis. And thanks, Stefania Messina 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.359 for being with us this morning. You guys have 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.000 a great day and a successful week. Okay. Thanks 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.059 so much. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Bye 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:48.180 now.