All right, welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight. I am Jamie Bailey and today we've got coach
Ben Loorz here. First season as Arizona's head coach coming off a crazy successful run
at UNLV. Five conference titles, multiple Coach of the Year awards and his teams were
known for massive improvements in the water. Coach, I'm excited to have you on.
What's up, Jamie? Thanks for the invitation. It's good to be here.
This will be a lot of fun. I'm excited. I'm excited to riff with you on this stuff. Okay,
so this is your first season at Arizona and the program, you know, it just moved from
the Pac-12 to the Big 12. So, but what was it about Arizona that made you say, yeah,
this is the move that I got to make after eight seasons at UNLV?
Yeah, it's a question I've gotten a lot this year from everybody from family to recruits
to, you know, to athletes that are currently coaching and formerly coached, you know, so
it's an important one that I've thought a lot about. You know, it's always major life
moves, Jamie, are always a combination of factors. There's no doubt this is a major
move professionally and in life. You know, it's, well, I mean, I think there's just one
obvious thing to state and that's, I mean, you know, when I was coming up through the
ranks of coaching, I mean, you know, a lot of my heroes as coaches and athletes swam
here, like the legacy of this place is hard to deny. And that's important. You know, that
affects culture as well. But, you know, more than anything, and I'm sure we'll dig into
this later as we talk about improvement numbers, because that's kind of your jam. But like,
you know, I challenge my athletes wherever I've been. It's like, yeah, you got to grow.
You got to look for new challenges. You got to embrace hard things. And if you got two
pathways in front of you, the one that scares you a little bit more is probably the one
that's probably the one you got to look real hard at. And that for sure was the case here.
You know, this is a more challenging path. As you said, things were in a good groove
at UNLV, which I'm really grateful for. And man, I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't
just like tip my hat, not only to the athletes and coaches I got to work with there, but
just to that place in general, you know, like I wouldn't be the coach I am without the years
I spent there as an assistant. And then, you know, the years I was blessed to have there
as a head coach. So.
Yeah, you know, V, there, it's a mid major, but it's a really high end mid major. And
you had some incredible talent when you were there. And now this moved to Arizona. Now
you're, you're in the power four, you're in the big 12. So you've been coaching a while.
Do you think there's more pressure put on power for coaches to win right now? Or is
there pressure pretty much, you know, everywhere in college swimming?
There's definitely more pressure. Yeah, for sure. I think there are a lot of places in
collegiate swimming, although less so than there used to be. But I still think there
are a lot of places in collegiate swimming where if you're keeping your nose clean, your
athletes are, you know, giving you, you know, kudos at the end of the season on their, their
reviews and you keep keeping a good team GPA, like it's possible to settle in. But I think
in power four, that's not true. Like if you don't produce results that are in line with
what the athletic directors expectations are, then you won't have a job there anymore.
Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. And when you were, when you were at UNLV,
your teams, they had some of the biggest time drops in the country. You know, you know,
that's, that's how you can win, right? You can, you can either out recruit everyone,
you can develop everyone, or you can do some combination of both. And I think at UNLV,
you did both. You did it really, really well. So, so, you know, when you're, when you're,
when you're at Arizona, and you're now that you're at Arizona, and you're, you're looking
at recruits, what are you looking for in recruits? Are they, do they need to have those, you
know, big 12, a times now B times? Are you looking for more diamonds in the rough? How
are you, how are you evaluating those recruits as they come across your desk?
I mean, I think the evaluation of them is, you know, it doesn't doesn't really change
no matter what level you're at. You're, you're, it's, you're looking, the ability to get
athletes to improve is always based on many different factors. So it's a system, you know,
and, and only rarely do you find an athlete that's checking every single box on your list.
But being really intentional about having clarity on that list, what you're looking
for, and checking as many of those boxes as possible, before you pull the trigger and
make an offer of a spot or scholarship or whatever, like that's, that's a part of the
process. And yeah, you know, I, I'm really blessed right now. I've got a great head recruiter,
our CITIC head coach, Peter Richardson, he and I really operate at different ends of
the spectrum. He's a, he's a, let's do it fast. And I'm a, let's do it right, you know,
and so we, we meet somewhere in the middle and we push on each other a lot, which is
great. You know, that's important because I'm trying to check every box. You know, I'd
love to be 99% sure before I pull the trigger. But you know, I, I, a few years ago, I was
listening to a podcast talk about like a 60% rule. I think it was like somebody famous
in business, you know, it was like Warren Buffett or something like that was like, look,
if you wait till you're 99% sure, you're going to miss the opportunity. Like when you're
60% sure, like you got to go. If it's 50 50, well, keep digging, you know, but you know,
you know, but don't wait till 99 here, you know? So anyway, I mean, to get back to your
question, like, you know, what are we looking for? I mean, it's, you know, there's, there's
physical tools, there's improvement curves, progressions, as you well know, like part
of your business is evaluating like what kind of system they're coming from and how does
that mesh with the system they're moving to. And then there's the character because
there are some definitely some, some characteristics and some mental tools that we find do correlate
with with people who can improve. So we try to evaluate all those as, as exhaustively
as we can. Meanwhile, while building a relationship, I mean, that's, that's it too, you know, it's
like, at the end of the day, it's not just numbers. It's like, there's got to be a vibe,
you know, you got to have a relationship with the athlete and they've got to want to have
a relationship with you. So
I remember you and I, we talked many months ago, and this was, this was when you were
were at, you know, the, and we were going through all of your swimmers and how they
had improved. And I remember telling you, it's like you haven't missed, like, it's
like everyone on your roster was having pretty much was having all these big time drops.
And we talked a little bit about, you know, how you recruited and where you recruit from
has that changed at all? You know, you're, you're, you're in a different, you're in a
different school, you're in a different, you know, I mean, you're in the, you're a lot
west. So I know you still got a lot of really good relationship with some of the west coast
clubs and stuff, but has the recruiting philosophy changed at all?
You know, yes and no. I mean, I think in terms of what you're looking for, like you're always
trying to level up your program. You're always looking for somebody who's flying under the
radar of the teams that are ranked higher than you, you know, like, so, you know, maybe
there's a threshold Jamie that I haven't reached yet where it's like every top level athlete
just kind of is knocking on your door. I'm sure that's true for Bob. And I'm sure that
that's probably true for Todd. I mean, you know, so, okay, you know, so there's probably
some threshold out there, but, but that's only the, you know, top one or two or three
teams. That's it. You know, I think everybody else it's like, yeah, you, you're trying to,
you're trying to recruit somebody who you know, you have high degree of confidence can,
can move the needle through your program competitively that you want to work with, that you feel
confident can get better. And that is, yeah, like I said, as somebody who maybe, maybe
Virginia didn't have a spot for him. And so you're talking to him and, you know, but you
believe they can be at that level, you know, and so that's, that's something that doesn't
really change. And when I moved from division two to division one a decade ago, I think
I wondered that. And I found out that it was the same, just a level up. And so I was more
prepared for this move. I feel like it's, it's the same tools exist. I'll say that there's
maybe one thing that's changed a little bit. And that just has to do with the programs
that I took over. So I took over UNLV about a decade ago, like they had fallen on some
hard times in terms of their depth, their overall development as a, as a squad. So there's
a couple of really talented athletes at the top. But, you know, they had gone from a team
that had won like 10 out of 11 conference championships on the men's side to a team
that was squarely in the middle of the conference. They were fourth, they were fourth place team
at best. And, and the women's was like ninth out of 10, you know, so that's where it was
when coach Pat and I took over in 2018. And sorry, 2016. And, and so part of our objective
there was to, we needed to get some, some good swimmers into the number 10, 11, 12 slots
in the program, you know, and that, that helped us focus on what we needed. Here, it's a little
bit different, because I don't need to get back to winning conference necessarily, although
that's certainly part of the objective, but, you know, it's really, really primarily important
that we've got some athletes who are scoring at NC two A's and relays that are scoring
at NC two A's. And so that changes a little bit because it's, it's a little bit more about
making sure you've got some people of that caliber who could do that. And that takes
a little bit of precedent. So that changes it.
Yeah. And when we're, when we talk about development and you've heard, we've heard Bob talk about
this a couple of times on a couple of different interviews, just the, the way some of the
power fours are shifting with more of that, that pressure win now. And the coaches that
we've talked to, it's been a mix on how they view the transfer portal. You know, some,
some coaches are very excited about the transfer portal. There's going to be a lot of talent
out there. They can't wait to get in there. In other sports outside of swimming, the transfer
portal is even more important. If not everything in recruiting, you have such a rich history
of development. You've obviously taken, you know, these athletes right out of high school
and blown them up in terms of time. Where do you fall on the balance between the transfer
portal and development? What do you lean more toward?
I mean, at the end of the day, we all have to be true to ourselves in terms of like as
a coach, like I've got to be who I am, you know, and like personal growth, growth as
an athlete, as a, as a human, as a student, professional, pre-professional, like those
are all critically important to me. And I just don't see that ever changing. So yeah,
you know, in some sense, like, I don't care if it's a transfer or freshmen or, you know,
some Israeli guy who was 22 years old after army service, like it doesn't matter. Like
when you, when you leave here, I want you to be better with more tools in your toolbox.
You know, like that's, that's really important. You know, our team's got two rules, like make
yourself better and make those around you better. Like that's it. Every, everything,
every team value we've got and every, you know, smaller, more meticulous rule we've
got, like they all flow from one of those two categories. And so, and you know, big
overarching sense, I don't really see that changing. It is an interesting time, like
this year in particular, like I will say also that in swimming and diving, like we enjoy
one of the lowest transfer rates in the NCAA compared to other sports. And I, it's one
thing I appreciate about our sport in general. So I do like that. This year is a one-off,
I believe, at least I hope it is just, just in terms of there's going to be, I think a
lot of people in the transfer portal because of roster caps and cuts happening. You know,
I do foresee that stabilizing. I don't think that we're going to turn into a sport all
of a sudden where 40% of, you know, NCAA swimmers and divers hit the portal every March. Like
I don't think that that's true. So, you know, to turn into all of a sudden a program where
it's like, oh yeah, it's going to be all portal, all portal. Well, it's like, well, okay. I
mean, you might benefit from that this year, you know, when the, the SEC they've got to
take their men down to 22, that might be helpful. But as a forward looking, like paradigm way
of doing business, I don't know that that's necessarily the best time will tell. We'll
see. But yeah, that's the way I look at it too. I think, I think this is a one-off event
where we do have maybe just a, you know, a little pop of, of talent that, that's kind
of going to make its way down because of roster cuts. But I don't see it, it being a continuous
trend, you know, you know, in football, you have to recruit your team as much as you have
to recruit new people to come in. So you're, you're, you're constantly trying to keep that
team in place for the next year. And that, that is a wild assignment to have to take
on as a coach, to know that your athletes that you have right now, you have to work
to keep them. And I don't think that's a good reminder. Yeah. I mean, but maybe not Jamie,
but that's, I mean, that's a good perspective, you know, cause like we all at some point
or another, we all follow the big money sports, like, and like we're up or whatever five to
10 years behind, but like, yeah, you know, that's probably a good reminder for, for all
of us coaches to listen to. That's a good perspective. It's like, Hey, don't forget
to like, keep selling it, you know, in a positive way, not like, but like, yeah, like, you know,
the more you communicate and, and, and convince your current athletes that yeah, like this
is working, like that's, it's not bad, you know? Yeah. You know, uh, NIL money, name,
image likeness, it's not that swimming is just getting, you know, a billion dollars
poured into it with NIL, but there is a little bit that flows here. And believe it or not,
we do see a couple of swimmers that actually do make their decisions, uh, based off NIL,
which, which is really wild to me that it's, it's happening. Um, I don't, I don't think
it will happen in mass, but you know, I think there is always that risk that you can transfer,
uh, you can swim next year and there is a little bit of money dangling, at least for
the very, very top end, which now this is the game that you're playing at Arizona, right?
You you're in the powerful world now. So it would be, it'll be interesting to see if that
ever comes in play for you. Uh, let me ask that question. Do you think NIL money will
ever come into play at, at Arizona or your competition or your recruiting?
I do. Yeah, I do. And you know, what's really interesting right now is, is the, the level
of like the number of teams that are reportedly moving into a space where they're going to
have 16 or 18 or 22 full rides. Um, and so that's not exactly NIL money, but it, you
know, then it, then you start asking questions like, well, okay, the teams that aren't at
22 full rides, is there a way to compete? If so, what does that look like? So yeah,
I think NIL money, uh, which is, as you probably know, it's going to be moving through a clearinghouse
moving into the future. So it's going to be well vetted and, uh, it's not just a free
for all anymore. It's got to be a fair market value income. Um, but yeah, I do see that
there is a place for that to be a powerful tool to be able to compete with programs that
are fully funding their entire roster. Yep. Yep. Okay. So let's, let's dig in on the
big 12 for a second. So well, it looks completely different. So you arrive and everything looks
different now, Texas dominated for years. And I, and I was telling you this before we
got on, I didn't realize Texas men never lost big, big 12 championship in 28 years. They
went 28 for 28, which is just wild, but you know, now they're off to the sec and you've
got Arizona, ASU and Utah have all stepped in. So do you think this makes the big 12
more exciting? Do you think, you know, I personally think there's more parody now. I think conference
championships are going to be incredibly exciting. We knew how it was going to end last year
in the big 12. Uh, this year, I think it's going to be a little closer. What do you think
about the conference and, and, and how it's headed from a swimming perspective? Yeah.
Well, we'll see. I mean, this year we've obviously scored it out pretty meticulously. You know,
um, uh, I'll let, you know, the, the, the, the fans at home score it out for themselves,
you know, and, and see where they think it's going to land. But, you know, it is by far
of the, of the four big conferences, the most wide open in terms of you want to always feel,
I mean, swimmers know this intuitively, like you want to feel like the work you put in
can move the needle. That's a really important feeling. You know, if you, if you lose that,
then the motivation wobbles. And that's a cool thing about the big 12 right now. We
really feel like whatever work we put in, we're going to be able to get that back out
of it in terms of like improving our performance, climbing that ladder, being at the top of
the big 12. So that's, that's cool. That's motivating for the coaches. That's motivating
for the swimmers and divers. Like that's, that's a really important piece of it. Um,
what remains to be seen, of course, is it's pretty clear that like the, the other three
conferences, you know, the battle lines are pretty firmly drawn, you know, like, you know,
where they all stand, those programs are all like, uh, you know, fairly unstable positions
in terms of like, who's expected to be first, who's expected to be fifth, whatever. Um,
with the big 12, like, are we going to be at the same level as that? Those other conferences,
you know, like if you look at what it takes to make top eight or top 16 in our conference
versus this other conference, will we be as good? And I think that remains to be seen.
Uh, I don't know that that one's been set. Yeah. I'd say this year right off the bat,
probably not yet. Um, you know, like I think that the distance between, uh, you know, an
Ilya Karun at the top for ASU and like the, the number 24 butterflyer in our conference,
like that's going to be a pretty wide gap maybe compared to the ACC or the SEC. But
is that something that as our conference comes together and finds its identity and, you know,
rising tides, lift all boats, as they say, like, do we level that up? And you know, are
we a conference that is comparable to the other three in terms of depth? Yeah. It's
certainly the hope for everybody. Well, I think championships are going to be a lot
of fun this year. Uh, I think that there there's a lot of interesting matchups there. I think
it's going to be, uh, um, I think it's going to be a level up from previous years, but
we'll see if I'm right. I'm excited about it. I'm sure you're really excited about it.
You're, you're prepping right now, right? How's that going? Yeah. Two weeks out from,
uh, from today. So, uh, yeah, we start, uh, two medley relay and a free relay two weeks
from today. Um, yeah, it's a relatively late conference for me. Um, yeah, like, so only
two weeks between the meat and then the women's NCAA championships. So, uh, the two week turnaround
is an interesting one. Uh, you know, one thing I'm excited about, it's been a long time since
I have been to a combined men and women conference championship, like since 2010. Yeah. So that's
kind of cool. Like that's a really fun thing. Um, obviously logistically, it's a little
bit of a bear, but, uh, there's always a ton of energy at a combined men's women's conference
championship. So that is something we're really looking forward to, um, to be able to travel
together all 60 of us, you know? Yeah, that is exciting. Yeah. Before you were splitting
time between the whack and the mountain west. So, yeah, which has this challenge is to,
you know, you're always leaving some coach behind and, you know, trying to write 18 workouts
while you're, you know, getting ready for finals for the other half of the squad, you
know? So, um, yeah, so it should be, it should be fun to have everybody together. Nice. So
let's talk a little bit more about the big 12. So, um, I think all the power four conferences
have some roster limits coming. What, what is, uh, what is the big 12 settling out on,
their roster limits for swimming? Yeah, it's going to be 30 men and 30 women. Uh, so it'll
be equal. Um, just to clarify for any listeners out there, like, uh, you know, at championships,
divers counted the half of roster spot, but that is not the case when it comes to roster
limitations. So like a diver is a whole person, uh, of course. And, uh, and even things like,
uh, well, I, you know, I get a lot of recruiting emails or messages where it's like, Hey coach,
I'm just looking for a walk on spot. It's like, no, no, man. Like a walk on spots, a
spot like that doesn't matter if you're on a full ride or nothing, like a spot is a spot,
you know, there's no such thing as like a walk on that doesn't count towards the roster
limitations. Um, so those all count. The one thing we're not really sure we probably won't
know till April when the dust settles on this house versus the NC two a is what about like
spots for like, uh, people who are having a medically red shirt. So if somebody's got
a medical problem, can you move them out of that 30? So that raises an interesting question.
It's like, well, yeah, then can you carry 32 or something into the beginning half of
the season and then, you know, and then if somebody's having medical trouble, you know,
they're on the outside of the 30 and you can keep 30 healthy people. We don't know the
answer to that one yet. We'll see what happens there.
Yeah. The, the, uh, your history at Univ, you, you, you typically kept in the twenties
for your active roster for swimmers. Uh, and, and then, you know, right now you're in your,
you know, low thirties ish. What's, what's your sweet spot? If you had, there were, there
was no house versus NCAA, there was unlimited resources. What, what is your ideal size team
to have in terms of just numbers that you can work with develop and then put together
that championship team? I mean, you know, there, there is no ideal
except that there's an ideal in terms of like your coach to athlete ratio. So that is important.
And then there's an ideal based on how many people are scoring either at the NCAA championships,
which is currently 18 or how many people you can score your conference championships is
currently 24. So those numbers really dictate the ideal. Uh, and I guess the third factor,
Jamie, is like how many coaches you have in your staff, you know, like if you've got one
full time and one part time assistant, like, well then yeah, your ideal is going to be
smaller, you know? So that goes back to that, that coach to athlete ratio. So, uh, you know,
I think with a, with a scoring squad of 24 in the big 12, which is what we are, and divers
do count as a half there. Um, you know, so you might travel 25 or 26, even 27 athletes,
a roster cap of 30 is a little low for that size of scoring squad. Um, that's a little
bit strange, you know, like baseball teams got nine people on the seat. You would never
say like, all right, you can have 11 on the team, you know, like that would be weird.
Right. So, um, to have a scoring roster of 24 with divers as a half, and then a roster
cap of 30 is a, is a little bit of a strange ratio. Having said that, you know, NC two
a's is more important and NC two a scoring squad is 18. So 30 is a, is a good ratio to
that. You know, I think that that works just fine to be honest. I'm still baffled at 22
from the sec. That just seems so low. Um, it, it, that would be challenging because
I've said it, I think I've said it two or three episodes in a row. You have no room
for error with that. You get a couple of major injuries or you get hit with the flu across
the team at the wrong time and you just don't have backup. And am I seeing that right or
wrong? Yeah, I think you're right. But I think the decision makers for them, that factor
is not really that important. Yeah. Cause it's not swim coaches who are making those
decisions. Right. You know, right. I don't think they want to be limited to 22 at all.
Right. Yeah. Every swim coach in the country fully agrees with what you just said, you
know, but that, you know, we swim coaches aren't really decision makers on that kind
of stuff. Yeah. When we had coach Dorn caught on a few episodes ago, he talked about when
he, he first joined Ohio state was talking to their AD and they were talking about the
ideal roster size. And they did that research on, you know, the historically this is how
Indiana, this is how Florida, this is, this is the number of athletes they've had on the
team. And if we want to follow that pattern, you know, we need to, we need to mimic that.
All that just went out the window. All of that is done now. Now you have roster limits.
And I think that's going to be a, a really interesting challenge moving forward is balancing
that, that development versus when now, because you just, you're not going to have that deep
bench that you've had in the past, especially when you add in divers and that's the thing
divers count toward the roster. Yeah. Sure. Okay. It'll raise some questions for some
teams about like, how much do we continue to invest in diving or not? And I think that
that's a legitimate concern for the diving coach community. You know, it's like, yeah,
there's some powerhouse programs where they may just, you know, cause there's a lot of
programs where the head coach is the swimming coach. So there's a bias that's built in there,
you know, and there's a lot of really high level diving coaches who are a little frightened
by that scenario, which is totally understandable. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's in it. Diving
is its own world. It's, it's, it's a, but they're, they're getting caught in the wake
of all of this as well. And it's going to be interesting to see how that evolves too.
Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. All right. So let's talk about coaching, your coaching style.
So you, you've been working on a system for years. That's worked out really, really well,
you know, the, have you tweaked that at all now that you're at Arizona or is it, is it
always evolving? Like, tell me, tell me how you are evolving as a coach through, through
the changes that you've seen in, in the water and out of the water. Yeah, no, it's the right
question to ask. You know, what interesting aspect to me is like, even compared to 10
years ago, you know, the, the technological tools we have, like they're coming at you,
like pretty fast and furious right now. You can't do all of them. And so you, you have
to ask the question. We actually had a, like a staff meeting on this just yesterday. If
that's two questions, I think the first being like, well, what's the problem that I see
with our athletes? Like what, what, what are the problems that stand out? And then the
second one is like, which of all these technological tools really is the strongest lever? And what
I'm talking about, like technological tools, I mean, you can do, and there's some are quite
old and proven and some are brand new and there's everything in between. I mean, you
know, you can do lactate testing, you can invest in a velocity meter, you can invest
in a force paddle, you can, you know, on your hands, you can invest in heart rate monitors,
you can invest in something that's like monitors your HRV and your sleep and your recovery.
You can invest. I mean, like the list goes on and on. And you know, like you could try
to do all of them, but at some point, like, unless you've got like a full-time position
for a high performance person who is doing all of those things, you know, at some point,
you've got to choose like, okay, these are the ones, these are the strongest levers and
they fix what we are seeing as a problem. And so that's an interesting conversation
because there's a lot out there. And so, yeah, like seeking like, I think moving to a new
program has given me the opportunity to hit the reset button on that and look at all of
them again, brand new, fresh eyes, you know, like the system we are going at, you know,
the product. And so that was good. Now it's like, okay, it's a great time to like take
a step back and be like, all right, like it was working, but are there better tools, you
know? So.
And my theory is that, you know, and this is a big part of what SwimIntel does for research
is researching not just what happens when they get to you in college, but what were
they, how are they training back in high school at club level?
Yeah.
And I think that there is a setup that the club coaches do for you that helps them acclimate
their freshman year and then even, you know, progress through because we've made no secret
about it. There are clubs that produce athletes that have huge time drops through college.
And then of course, there's the opposite. So you've had in the past, you have been remarkable
at identifying talent that's going to progress. Have you, do you look at the clubs themselves
and what the clubs are doing with those athletes when they're in high school to help you understand
how they're going to fit in your system?
Yeah, I think you have to. Yes, I definitely do. And that doesn't mean that you pass on
an athlete that is, you know, in a club where they're, they're probably very close to their,
they're seeing already, you know, like that, that could be the right athlete for your program
at that time, you know. But, but yeah, you have to look at what they're bringing to the
table and what factors not only in training, but in life that might have affected their
improvement curves. And then, you know, there's no exact science there. As you know, you can
gather the data and make some projections. But there's a lot, there's, there's too many
factors to pin it on. Okay, it's, they, they lifted in high school or they didn't. They,
you know, like, it's like, yeah, we, we picked up a young guy who we think is going to be
really good. And, you know, he came from Maui. Well, you know, the guy barely competed for
a year because of all the fires on Maui that just destroyed that poor community. You know,
it's like, well, yeah, like, how good is this guy going to be? It's hard to say, you know,
because there's a lot of factors there. But we think the fact that he couldn't train for
a year, you know, and now he's back on track, like probably gives them a high ceiling. So,
you know, like that's, there's all those, all those X factors you have to weigh, you
know? Yeah. I think that, I think we need to do a better job of recognizing and rewarding
those club coaches that get so much out of those athletes and they go on to college and
continue that, that same curve, because you can, you can become a gold medal USA swimming
club when now, and then just kill the kids and they don't want to swim anymore. Right.
That's a, that's a way to do it. And, you know, I think some club coaches might be motivated
for, you know, that like, this is what happens this season, but there are some club coaches
that I have just infinite amount of respect for that don't just win there. They focus
so hard on setting those athletes up for success at the next level and they do not get enough
credit for what they're doing. And hopefully that's something that, that we help to bring
to light at swim and tell. Yeah. Well, and it's, I mean, you know, swim clubs are business.
So if you're in a crowded swimming market, you know, and you are able to thrive as a
business while still developing athletes who have their best years in college, like that's
a very tricky balance. And I agree hats off to club coaches who, who can do that. That,
that is a great point because a lot of people don't think about the business of clubs. Clubs
are, are typically private entities. They're there. They can be nonprofit, but they're
still trying to make payroll. Right. And so a lot of it comes down to enrollment. And
you think about, it's a complicated equation for a club to produce athletes that thrive
at the national level while in high school, as well as keep the enrollment up and then,
and then, you know, develop them so they're ready to be passed to you. And, you know,
if you think just the challenge of when do they start developing their athletes, do they
start them when they're, you know, nine, 10, 11 years old, are they just really good at
developing seniors? But in the end, they start to make payroll. And a lot of people don't
think about that. You know, how many coaches do they have on deck? How many kids per lane
do they have? Are they financially stable? Because if enrollment's low, you may not have
a coach next year. Right. And I think it's, it's more complicated than people realize.
I think that everybody's just focused on their athlete and getting their athlete to the next
level. But those club coaches, man, they have a lot to deal with. So again, a lot of respect
for what they do. Yeah, indeed. Yes. All right. So let's shift gears for a second. We've talked
a lot in past episodes about in season swimming in college. Does it need to be more exciting?
You know, do we need to change the format? Do dual meets make sense? As a head coach,
you know, do you like the format the way it is? Do you like the dual meet format format?
Coach Parisi talked about how he really likes invitationals. They're more, they're more
similar to conference, and he's doing more of those. What do you think about the way
we do it in season now? Do you want to do you want to change things up? Or do you like
the way it's going? Yeah, it's, it's tough to change dual meets up without. And what
Brian said is an interesting point, because he's like, Yeah, I'm not here to change the
dual meet system. I'm just going to have less of them and I'm going to go to more invites.
So you know, that's, that's, I think, you know, in line with what I'd expect from from
Brian in terms of just like thinking outside the box and go in his own path, you know,
the, the, the paradigm is the thing, you know, so it's like, if you got an ISL paradigm,
you know, like, you can make dual meets more exciting, because they are the thing. But
right now our paradigm is that NC two days is the thing. Like, that's where you get ranks.
That's where you win. That's where you show your athletic director like, hey, we're doing
the right job. So yeah, so what's the focus? You know, like, if the focus is NC two days,
well then, yeah, it's tough to change the whole dual meet the dual meet paradigm, I
think, like, it's kind of got to exist the way it is to some degree. Yeah, it's interesting.
You get these, these really wide variations of philosophy around dual meets. Some coaches,
you never see them put on suits except for the traditional mid season and then championship.
Other coaches like to swim fast all the time. Where do you stand in terms of just swimming
fast? Do you like your kids swimming fast? dual meets? Or do you are you saving that
for those, you know, yeah, I have a little bit of a yin and yang answer for for you there,
like, I mean, fascinating is always good, you know, like, is there value in, you know,
working really hard to execute something when you don't feel perfect? I do think there is.
And so on that side of it, I trend a little bit more towards the traditional in the sense
that like, yeah, you have to put some level of work in so that you have to step up and
go race speed, even if you're not feeling perfect, and still execute well and, you know,
and not worry as much about the time, you know, so that I that I think is, is still
my philosophy, we take a long arc to the season with with with fewer peaks. So that's the
overarching philosophy. You know, having said that, you know, like things like suiting up
like routinely, it's like, yeah, like the suit changes how you float in the water, it
changes your stroke count, it changes your execution. So yeah, so is suiting up a lot,
like a part of the process of being ready to be your best at the end? Absolutely. You
know, like, just sort of like full on garbage, you know, is also bad, because then same thing,
your stroke counts different, you can't hold your rate. Well, that's equally bad, you know,
so we got to, we got to use meets as rehearsals. And so then you have to hit a sweet spot in
terms of being able to step up and perform to at least a certain level. Otherwise, you're
also not getting the benefit of it, you know, so, you know, but like, I'll give you an example,
like, it gets in here, like we had a dual meet in the fall with it with a team that,
you know, on paper, we're probably a little bit better than we lost that meet. And it's
like, okay, like, yeah, you know, like, was that a miss? Like, did we not prepare well?
Or were we just working really hard? And they were a little fresher? I think that was the
case. Time will tell in the end of big 12s and NC2As, you know, but like, I'm not gonna
I'm not gonna lose sleep over that, you know, like, I'm not gonna regret pushing my team
hard at certain points of the season, you know. We had a really close dual meet. This
was an interesting one. We had a close dual meet with Minnesota three weeks ago. And yeah,
it was it was really interesting. Because we came down to the last relay, we were we
were, we won both relays, we won the women's, we split the guys relays, we went one two
there, which we needed to do. And so we you know, we ended up a few points ahead on each
side. But diving was still going on. So the meet wasn't over. And so everybody rushed
over to the diving well. And like, it was cool, because it's rare that you see diving
get like a bottom of the ninth kind of scenario, you know, but that's what it was. It's like,
you know, we were all doing the math. And it's like, on the women's side, our divers
needed to get this and that in order to win. And then, you know, the guy side, and for
me, for my perspective, was really cool, like, the divers felt the energy, the whole team
was engaged, like, I really loved it. And I was talking to my friend, Coach Kelly Kramer,
who's the head coach at Minnesota after the meet. And his perspective was different. He
was like, man, that was terrible. He's like, because, you know, he's like, did you notice
the spectators or the administrators in the stands, you know, like, a, they didn't really
fully understand what was going on and what hung in the balance. And B, like, everybody
rushed over the diving well. And most of the spectators didn't, they peaced out, you know.
So he's like, what a missed opportunity. He's like, that would have been way better if,
you know, we could have like, done the last relay and everybody knew that last relay decided
it. He's like, that would have been more exciting for the spectator. So that was interesting
to chat back and forth with him about that. And this getting a little away from your like,
suit question. Do you suit? Do you not? Do you swim fast? Do you not? But I think it
pertains to your overarching question of like, are dual meets exciting enough? Do we keep
them the way they are? You know, because it's not that often that you get a dual meet that
comes down to the last events and everybody's kind of sitting on the edge of their seat.
Let's be honest, most college dual meets are not that way. So.
And like you said, it's not like most scoreboards show you the tally. And if you're relying
on MeetMobile, well, I mean, I don't know how that goes. I mean, you may or may not
may not love for you. Right. So why do we not just put the score up on the scoreboard?
Like like the only sport that doesn't do this. It drives me nuts. Yeah. But when you get
dual meets like the one you just described, those are awesome. Those are so fun. And that's
that's it out that opportunity to pull the spectators in and engage with them and, you
know, make that that ending exciting. And I think that's a great example of where little
things that we miss sometimes in the. So, yeah. You talked about dual meets being a
rehearsal. How do you, you know, at the end of a dual meet or an invitational, what do
you and the coaching staff do? Do you guys do you guys go back through and debrief on
every swim? How do you how do you evaluate performance and how does it change maybe what
you do in the water that the next few weeks with swimmers that either are or are not on
that path that you want them on? Yeah, we definitely do that. It's really important.
And you know, like I think there's a few stages to it. There's the right after the meet, you
know, and then there's like the like the car ride home and then there's like the Monday
morning, you know. So it's like, you know, what you notice at each of those stages is
different. I think all three can be beneficial, you know, like when you just wrap the meat,
like, OK, what what what's on your mind? What's on your heart? Yeah, you got to talk about
that as a staff and then, you know, a car ride home like I was leaning over the seat
of the bus on Saturday after getting something by ASU, you know, like, hey, Amanda, what
did you notice? You know, like Coach Amanda Beard, you know, it's like and then, you know,
and then we absolutely Monday morning staff meeting. It's like, OK, like, let's make a
list here. Like what did we miss? How do we do better? What was when, you know, and that's
a really important process to you. We had we had a benefit. We've got, you know, somebody
working with us in a consultant capacity. And that's cool because they were able to
kind of watch the meat on Saturday from like from the stands, just like the eye of the
sky, not worrying about it because, you know, as a coach on the pool deck, like a lot of
what you're doing is relational. Talking to athletes, you're engaging, you're teaching,
you're correcting, you're motivating, you're picking up the pieces, you know, and that's
that's your job as a coach on the pool deck, you know, to have somebody like eye in the
sky, like watching from the stands, you know, and then that was a part of my debrief process
as well. You know, it's like, OK, spent half an hour on the phone Saturday night with him.
It's like, yeah, what did you see? What did I miss? You know, and that was really actually
pretty productive. Like, yeah, that coach said some things I was like, right. Good point.
I miss that, you know, because you're just in it, you know, you're just in it. And so
I think all of those those levels of analysis are very, very important. And then I think
I've done a better job certainly this year, but even in last year, like, you know, just
being like to make it a systematic part of what we do to review video one on one after
every competition. Like, that's not something that I think 10 years ago I was taking the
time to do, but we do now. And it's that's that's really productive as well, because
it gets to your point, your question rather about like, like, does it change training?
Well, yeah, like I've got a main set plan today. It's Tuesday. We're suiting up this
afternoon and I watch a video with one of my guys who's 100 fly 100 free. And he ain't
doing that set anymore because we watch some stuff. I was like, you know, and he noticed
a few things, you know, it wasn't all me. Like, we're sitting there watching it together
and he's like, he's like, look at my stroke rate. I was like, good point. Like, you know,
so we designed another set for him today that's going to be a different focus, you know. So
yeah, it definitely affects it. And this is a great point. You know, you talked about
earlier, it's coaching staff to athlete ratio, right? And if you have 90 swimmers on your
team and you have two coaches, it's really difficult to give that kind of individualization
because you can't do it at the time of resources, right? So this is where you do need it. And
this, this goes to the student athletes and the parents too. You want to look at that,
you know, where, where you're going to swim at. It can be absolutely an advantage of having
extra sets of eyes, even if it's a consultant in the stands, being able to point some things
out that because you've got, you've got a lot of swimmers in the water and you're dealing
with a lot of things on deck. So it's, that's a wonderful point. It's a wonderful point.
Okay. Let's switch gears to the last question. So Arizona has got a lot of really great athletics.
And I ask this question every time, you know, outside of swimming, you know, what, what,
what's your favorite sport to watch at Arizona? What's, what, what do I gotta go see when
I, when I visit you out there? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, like I, I'm a little bit
different answer on this one, Jamie, like I'm probably not your best resource because
like, um, you know, I, I'm, I'm a little strange. I got, I love sports that don't make any money,
you know, like that's, that's, that's my, you know, we just won the national championship
in triathlon. Like we've got the number one collegiate triathlon team in the country and
uh, they're obviously, they, they share a facility with us clearly. And um, so just
in terms of all the sports here, they're really close squad to us. Um, but uh, I love their
energy. I love their coaching staff. Like I think that they're, and it's a, it's a super
fun emerging sport. Like it's not emerging in terms of like, like triathlon has been
around a long time, but emerging in terms of NC2A competition, you know? And so, um,
yeah, I think they're just a really smart squad and, and uh, what they're doing is,
is pretty top level just in terms of, uh, the world stage, which I find pretty cool
too, you know, like, uh, it's like, yeah, like that, that person in that, in the water
right there, like, uh, yeah, they're going to be like, uh, they're going to, you're going
to watch them in the Olympics in LA, like, you know, they're pretty top level outside
of just collegiate competition, which I find super motivating as well. You know, Arizona
swimming and diving has always been based on that, that paradigm. And so, uh, I love
that about our triathlon squad. So anyway, I mean, that's, that's my pick, but, um, you
know, as you probably know, our baseball, softball, basketball here, they've been pretty,
pretty top notch for a lot of decades, you know? So those are always fun.
There's no shortage of sports to watch at Arizona. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And it's
kind of cool because it's like, there are no real pro sports teams in town. And so, yeah,
it's all Arizona sports, which is, uh, which is a fun vibe. Like, you know, like it's like
the community shows up for everything, which is cool. You know, that, that, that's what
makes it a great college environment right there. I love that. That's what there, there's
nothing like college sports and, uh, and that, that environment is, is so much fun. Yeah.
Coach, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate you taking the time, the insights.
I know you get ready for conference, so that's going to be really fun to watch. Uh, good
luck the rest of the season and, uh, we cannot wait to see how you guys do. Thanks, Jeremy.
I appreciate the time and just all the conversation. All right. Awesome. Thanks, coach.