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All right, welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight. I am Jamie Bailey and today we've got coach

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Ben Loorz here. First season as Arizona's head coach coming off a crazy successful run

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at UNLV. Five conference titles, multiple Coach of the Year awards and his teams were

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known for massive improvements in the water. Coach, I'm excited to have you on.

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What's up, Jamie? Thanks for the invitation. It's good to be here.

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This will be a lot of fun. I'm excited. I'm excited to riff with you on this stuff. Okay,

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so this is your first season at Arizona and the program, you know, it just moved from

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the Pac-12 to the Big 12. So, but what was it about Arizona that made you say, yeah,

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this is the move that I got to make after eight seasons at UNLV?

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Yeah, it's a question I've gotten a lot this year from everybody from family to recruits

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to, you know, to athletes that are currently coaching and formerly coached, you know, so

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it's an important one that I've thought a lot about. You know, it's always major life

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moves, Jamie, are always a combination of factors. There's no doubt this is a major

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move professionally and in life. You know, it's, well, I mean, I think there's just one

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obvious thing to state and that's, I mean, you know, when I was coming up through the

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ranks of coaching, I mean, you know, a lot of my heroes as coaches and athletes swam

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here, like the legacy of this place is hard to deny. And that's important. You know, that

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affects culture as well. But, you know, more than anything, and I'm sure we'll dig into

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this later as we talk about improvement numbers, because that's kind of your jam. But like,

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you know, I challenge my athletes wherever I've been. It's like, yeah, you got to grow.

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You got to look for new challenges. You got to embrace hard things. And if you got two

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pathways in front of you, the one that scares you a little bit more is probably the one

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that's probably the one you got to look real hard at. And that for sure was the case here.

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You know, this is a more challenging path. As you said, things were in a good groove

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at UNLV, which I'm really grateful for. And man, I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't

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just like tip my hat, not only to the athletes and coaches I got to work with there, but

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just to that place in general, you know, like I wouldn't be the coach I am without the years

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I spent there as an assistant. And then, you know, the years I was blessed to have there

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as a head coach. So.

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Yeah, you know, V, there, it's a mid major, but it's a really high end mid major. And

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you had some incredible talent when you were there. And now this moved to Arizona. Now

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you're, you're in the power four, you're in the big 12. So you've been coaching a while.

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Do you think there's more pressure put on power for coaches to win right now? Or is

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there pressure pretty much, you know, everywhere in college swimming?

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There's definitely more pressure. Yeah, for sure. I think there are a lot of places in

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collegiate swimming, although less so than there used to be. But I still think there

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are a lot of places in collegiate swimming where if you're keeping your nose clean, your

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athletes are, you know, giving you, you know, kudos at the end of the season on their, their

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reviews and you keep keeping a good team GPA, like it's possible to settle in. But I think

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in power four, that's not true. Like if you don't produce results that are in line with

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what the athletic directors expectations are, then you won't have a job there anymore.

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Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. And when you were, when you were at UNLV,

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your teams, they had some of the biggest time drops in the country. You know, you know,

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that's, that's how you can win, right? You can, you can either out recruit everyone,

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you can develop everyone, or you can do some combination of both. And I think at UNLV,

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you did both. You did it really, really well. So, so, you know, when you're, when you're,

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when you're at Arizona, and you're now that you're at Arizona, and you're, you're looking

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at recruits, what are you looking for in recruits? Are they, do they need to have those, you

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know, big 12, a times now B times? Are you looking for more diamonds in the rough? How

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are you, how are you evaluating those recruits as they come across your desk?

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I mean, I think the evaluation of them is, you know, it doesn't doesn't really change

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no matter what level you're at. You're, you're, it's, you're looking, the ability to get

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athletes to improve is always based on many different factors. So it's a system, you know,

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and, and only rarely do you find an athlete that's checking every single box on your list.

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But being really intentional about having clarity on that list, what you're looking

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for, and checking as many of those boxes as possible, before you pull the trigger and

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make an offer of a spot or scholarship or whatever, like that's, that's a part of the

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process. And yeah, you know, I, I'm really blessed right now. I've got a great head recruiter,

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our CITIC head coach, Peter Richardson, he and I really operate at different ends of

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the spectrum. He's a, he's a, let's do it fast. And I'm a, let's do it right, you know,

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and so we, we meet somewhere in the middle and we push on each other a lot, which is

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great. You know, that's important because I'm trying to check every box. You know, I'd

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love to be 99% sure before I pull the trigger. But you know, I, I, a few years ago, I was

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listening to a podcast talk about like a 60% rule. I think it was like somebody famous

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in business, you know, it was like Warren Buffett or something like that was like, look,

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if you wait till you're 99% sure, you're going to miss the opportunity. Like when you're

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60% sure, like you got to go. If it's 50 50, well, keep digging, you know, but you know,

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you know, but don't wait till 99 here, you know? So anyway, I mean, to get back to your

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question, like, you know, what are we looking for? I mean, it's, you know, there's, there's

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physical tools, there's improvement curves, progressions, as you well know, like part

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of your business is evaluating like what kind of system they're coming from and how does

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that mesh with the system they're moving to. And then there's the character because

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there are some definitely some, some characteristics and some mental tools that we find do correlate

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with with people who can improve. So we try to evaluate all those as, as exhaustively

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as we can. Meanwhile, while building a relationship, I mean, that's, that's it too, you know, it's

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like, at the end of the day, it's not just numbers. It's like, there's got to be a vibe,

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you know, you got to have a relationship with the athlete and they've got to want to have

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a relationship with you. So

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I remember you and I, we talked many months ago, and this was, this was when you were

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were at, you know, the, and we were going through all of your swimmers and how they

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had improved. And I remember telling you, it's like you haven't missed, like, it's

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like everyone on your roster was having pretty much was having all these big time drops.

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And we talked a little bit about, you know, how you recruited and where you recruit from

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has that changed at all? You know, you're, you're, you're in a different, you're in a

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different school, you're in a different, you know, I mean, you're in the, you're a lot

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west. So I know you still got a lot of really good relationship with some of the west coast

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clubs and stuff, but has the recruiting philosophy changed at all?

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You know, yes and no. I mean, I think in terms of what you're looking for, like you're always

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trying to level up your program. You're always looking for somebody who's flying under the

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radar of the teams that are ranked higher than you, you know, like, so, you know, maybe

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there's a threshold Jamie that I haven't reached yet where it's like every top level athlete

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just kind of is knocking on your door. I'm sure that's true for Bob. And I'm sure that

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that's probably true for Todd. I mean, you know, so, okay, you know, so there's probably

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some threshold out there, but, but that's only the, you know, top one or two or three

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teams. That's it. You know, I think everybody else it's like, yeah, you, you're trying to,

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you're trying to recruit somebody who you know, you have high degree of confidence can,

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can move the needle through your program competitively that you want to work with, that you feel

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confident can get better. And that is, yeah, like I said, as somebody who maybe, maybe

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Virginia didn't have a spot for him. And so you're talking to him and, you know, but you

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believe they can be at that level, you know, and so that's, that's something that doesn't

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really change. And when I moved from division two to division one a decade ago, I think

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I wondered that. And I found out that it was the same, just a level up. And so I was more

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prepared for this move. I feel like it's, it's the same tools exist. I'll say that there's

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maybe one thing that's changed a little bit. And that just has to do with the programs

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that I took over. So I took over UNLV about a decade ago, like they had fallen on some

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hard times in terms of their depth, their overall development as a, as a squad. So there's

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a couple of really talented athletes at the top. But, you know, they had gone from a team

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that had won like 10 out of 11 conference championships on the men's side to a team

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that was squarely in the middle of the conference. They were fourth, they were fourth place team

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at best. And, and the women's was like ninth out of 10, you know, so that's where it was

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when coach Pat and I took over in 2018. And sorry, 2016. And, and so part of our objective

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there was to, we needed to get some, some good swimmers into the number 10, 11, 12 slots

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in the program, you know, and that, that helped us focus on what we needed. Here, it's a little

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bit different, because I don't need to get back to winning conference necessarily, although

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that's certainly part of the objective, but, you know, it's really, really primarily important

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that we've got some athletes who are scoring at NC two A's and relays that are scoring

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at NC two A's. And so that changes a little bit because it's, it's a little bit more about

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making sure you've got some people of that caliber who could do that. And that takes

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a little bit of precedent. So that changes it.

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Yeah. And when we're, when we talk about development and you've heard, we've heard Bob talk about

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this a couple of times on a couple of different interviews, just the, the way some of the

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power fours are shifting with more of that, that pressure win now. And the coaches that

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we've talked to, it's been a mix on how they view the transfer portal. You know, some,

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some coaches are very excited about the transfer portal. There's going to be a lot of talent

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out there. They can't wait to get in there. In other sports outside of swimming, the transfer

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portal is even more important. If not everything in recruiting, you have such a rich history

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of development. You've obviously taken, you know, these athletes right out of high school

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and blown them up in terms of time. Where do you fall on the balance between the transfer

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portal and development? What do you lean more toward?

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I mean, at the end of the day, we all have to be true to ourselves in terms of like as

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a coach, like I've got to be who I am, you know, and like personal growth, growth as

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an athlete, as a, as a human, as a student, professional, pre-professional, like those

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are all critically important to me. And I just don't see that ever changing. So yeah,

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you know, in some sense, like, I don't care if it's a transfer or freshmen or, you know,

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some Israeli guy who was 22 years old after army service, like it doesn't matter. Like

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when you, when you leave here, I want you to be better with more tools in your toolbox.

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You know, like that's, that's really important. You know, our team's got two rules, like make

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yourself better and make those around you better. Like that's it. Every, everything,

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every team value we've got and every, you know, smaller, more meticulous rule we've

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got, like they all flow from one of those two categories. And so, and you know, big

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overarching sense, I don't really see that changing. It is an interesting time, like

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this year in particular, like I will say also that in swimming and diving, like we enjoy

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one of the lowest transfer rates in the NCAA compared to other sports. And I, it's one

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thing I appreciate about our sport in general. So I do like that. This year is a one-off,

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I believe, at least I hope it is just, just in terms of there's going to be, I think a

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lot of people in the transfer portal because of roster caps and cuts happening. You know,

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I do foresee that stabilizing. I don't think that we're going to turn into a sport all

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of a sudden where 40% of, you know, NCAA swimmers and divers hit the portal every March. Like

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I don't think that that's true. So, you know, to turn into all of a sudden a program where

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it's like, oh yeah, it's going to be all portal, all portal. Well, it's like, well, okay. I

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mean, you might benefit from that this year, you know, when the, the SEC they've got to

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take their men down to 22, that might be helpful. But as a forward looking, like paradigm way

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of doing business, I don't know that that's necessarily the best time will tell. We'll

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see. But yeah, that's the way I look at it too. I think, I think this is a one-off event

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where we do have maybe just a, you know, a little pop of, of talent that, that's kind

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of going to make its way down because of roster cuts. But I don't see it, it being a continuous

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trend, you know, you know, in football, you have to recruit your team as much as you have

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to recruit new people to come in. So you're, you're, you're constantly trying to keep that

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team in place for the next year. And that, that is a wild assignment to have to take

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on as a coach, to know that your athletes that you have right now, you have to work

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to keep them. And I don't think that's a good reminder. Yeah. I mean, but maybe not Jamie,

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but that's, I mean, that's a good perspective, you know, cause like we all at some point

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or another, we all follow the big money sports, like, and like we're up or whatever five to

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10 years behind, but like, yeah, you know, that's probably a good reminder for, for all

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of us coaches to listen to. That's a good perspective. It's like, Hey, don't forget

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to like, keep selling it, you know, in a positive way, not like, but like, yeah, like, you know,

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the more you communicate and, and, and convince your current athletes that yeah, like this

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is working, like that's, it's not bad, you know? Yeah. You know, uh, NIL money, name,

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image likeness, it's not that swimming is just getting, you know, a billion dollars

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poured into it with NIL, but there is a little bit that flows here. And believe it or not,

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we do see a couple of swimmers that actually do make their decisions, uh, based off NIL,

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which, which is really wild to me that it's, it's happening. Um, I don't, I don't think

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it will happen in mass, but you know, I think there is always that risk that you can transfer,

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uh, you can swim next year and there is a little bit of money dangling, at least for

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the very, very top end, which now this is the game that you're playing at Arizona, right?

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You you're in the powerful world now. So it would be, it'll be interesting to see if that

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ever comes in play for you. Uh, let me ask that question. Do you think NIL money will

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ever come into play at, at Arizona or your competition or your recruiting?

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I do. Yeah, I do. And you know, what's really interesting right now is, is the, the level

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of like the number of teams that are reportedly moving into a space where they're going to

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have 16 or 18 or 22 full rides. Um, and so that's not exactly NIL money, but it, you

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know, then it, then you start asking questions like, well, okay, the teams that aren't at

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22 full rides, is there a way to compete? If so, what does that look like? So yeah,

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I think NIL money, uh, which is, as you probably know, it's going to be moving through a clearinghouse

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moving into the future. So it's going to be well vetted and, uh, it's not just a free

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for all anymore. It's got to be a fair market value income. Um, but yeah, I do see that

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there is a place for that to be a powerful tool to be able to compete with programs that

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are fully funding their entire roster. Yep. Yep. Okay. So let's, let's dig in on the

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big 12 for a second. So well, it looks completely different. So you arrive and everything looks

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different now, Texas dominated for years. And I, and I was telling you this before we

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got on, I didn't realize Texas men never lost big, big 12 championship in 28 years. They

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went 28 for 28, which is just wild, but you know, now they're off to the sec and you've

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got Arizona, ASU and Utah have all stepped in. So do you think this makes the big 12

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more exciting? Do you think, you know, I personally think there's more parody now. I think conference

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championships are going to be incredibly exciting. We knew how it was going to end last year

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in the big 12. Uh, this year, I think it's going to be a little closer. What do you think

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about the conference and, and, and how it's headed from a swimming perspective? Yeah.

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Well, we'll see. I mean, this year we've obviously scored it out pretty meticulously. You know,

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um, uh, I'll let, you know, the, the, the, the fans at home score it out for themselves,

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you know, and, and see where they think it's going to land. But, you know, it is by far

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of the, of the four big conferences, the most wide open in terms of you want to always feel,

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I mean, swimmers know this intuitively, like you want to feel like the work you put in

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can move the needle. That's a really important feeling. You know, if you, if you lose that,

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then the motivation wobbles. And that's a cool thing about the big 12 right now. We

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really feel like whatever work we put in, we're going to be able to get that back out

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of it in terms of like improving our performance, climbing that ladder, being at the top of

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the big 12. So that's, that's cool. That's motivating for the coaches. That's motivating

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for the swimmers and divers. Like that's, that's a really important piece of it. Um,

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what remains to be seen, of course, is it's pretty clear that like the, the other three

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conferences, you know, the battle lines are pretty firmly drawn, you know, like, you know,

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where they all stand, those programs are all like, uh, you know, fairly unstable positions

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in terms of like, who's expected to be first, who's expected to be fifth, whatever. Um,

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with the big 12, like, are we going to be at the same level as that? Those other conferences,

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you know, like if you look at what it takes to make top eight or top 16 in our conference

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versus this other conference, will we be as good? And I think that remains to be seen.

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Uh, I don't know that that one's been set. Yeah. I'd say this year right off the bat,

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probably not yet. Um, you know, like I think that the distance between, uh, you know, an

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Ilya Karun at the top for ASU and like the, the number 24 butterflyer in our conference,

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like that's going to be a pretty wide gap maybe compared to the ACC or the SEC. But

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is that something that as our conference comes together and finds its identity and, you know,

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rising tides, lift all boats, as they say, like, do we level that up? And you know, are

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we a conference that is comparable to the other three in terms of depth? Yeah. It's

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certainly the hope for everybody. Well, I think championships are going to be a lot

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of fun this year. Uh, I think that there there's a lot of interesting matchups there. I think

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it's going to be, uh, um, I think it's going to be a level up from previous years, but

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we'll see if I'm right. I'm excited about it. I'm sure you're really excited about it.

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You're, you're prepping right now, right? How's that going? Yeah. Two weeks out from,

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uh, from today. So, uh, yeah, we start, uh, two medley relay and a free relay two weeks

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from today. Um, yeah, it's a relatively late conference for me. Um, yeah, like, so only

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two weeks between the meat and then the women's NCAA championships. So, uh, the two week turnaround

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is an interesting one. Uh, you know, one thing I'm excited about, it's been a long time since

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I have been to a combined men and women conference championship, like since 2010. Yeah. So that's

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kind of cool. Like that's a really fun thing. Um, obviously logistically, it's a little

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bit of a bear, but, uh, there's always a ton of energy at a combined men's women's conference

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championship. So that is something we're really looking forward to, um, to be able to travel

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together all 60 of us, you know? Yeah, that is exciting. Yeah. Before you were splitting

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time between the whack and the mountain west. So, yeah, which has this challenge is to,

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you know, you're always leaving some coach behind and, you know, trying to write 18 workouts

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while you're, you know, getting ready for finals for the other half of the squad, you

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know? So, um, yeah, so it should be, it should be fun to have everybody together. Nice. So

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let's talk a little bit more about the big 12. So, um, I think all the power four conferences

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have some roster limits coming. What, what is, uh, what is the big 12 settling out on,

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their roster limits for swimming? Yeah, it's going to be 30 men and 30 women. Uh, so it'll

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be equal. Um, just to clarify for any listeners out there, like, uh, you know, at championships,

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divers counted the half of roster spot, but that is not the case when it comes to roster

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limitations. So like a diver is a whole person, uh, of course. And, uh, and even things like,

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uh, well, I, you know, I get a lot of recruiting emails or messages where it's like, Hey coach,

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I'm just looking for a walk on spot. It's like, no, no, man. Like a walk on spots, a

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spot like that doesn't matter if you're on a full ride or nothing, like a spot is a spot,

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you know, there's no such thing as like a walk on that doesn't count towards the roster

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limitations. Um, so those all count. The one thing we're not really sure we probably won't

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know till April when the dust settles on this house versus the NC two a is what about like

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spots for like, uh, people who are having a medically red shirt. So if somebody's got

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a medical problem, can you move them out of that 30? So that raises an interesting question.

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It's like, well, yeah, then can you carry 32 or something into the beginning half of

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the season and then, you know, and then if somebody's having medical trouble, you know,

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they're on the outside of the 30 and you can keep 30 healthy people. We don't know the

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answer to that one yet. We'll see what happens there.

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Yeah. The, the, uh, your history at Univ, you, you, you typically kept in the twenties

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for your active roster for swimmers. Uh, and, and then, you know, right now you're in your,

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you know, low thirties ish. What's, what's your sweet spot? If you had, there were, there

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was no house versus NCAA, there was unlimited resources. What, what is your ideal size team

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to have in terms of just numbers that you can work with develop and then put together

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that championship team? I mean, you know, there, there is no ideal

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except that there's an ideal in terms of like your coach to athlete ratio. So that is important.

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And then there's an ideal based on how many people are scoring either at the NCAA championships,

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which is currently 18 or how many people you can score your conference championships is

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currently 24. So those numbers really dictate the ideal. Uh, and I guess the third factor,

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Jamie, is like how many coaches you have in your staff, you know, like if you've got one

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full time and one part time assistant, like, well then yeah, your ideal is going to be

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smaller, you know? So that goes back to that, that coach to athlete ratio. So, uh, you know,

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I think with a, with a scoring squad of 24 in the big 12, which is what we are, and divers

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do count as a half there. Um, you know, so you might travel 25 or 26, even 27 athletes,

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a roster cap of 30 is a little low for that size of scoring squad. Um, that's a little

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bit strange, you know, like baseball teams got nine people on the seat. You would never

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say like, all right, you can have 11 on the team, you know, like that would be weird.

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Right. So, um, to have a scoring roster of 24 with divers as a half, and then a roster

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cap of 30 is a, is a little bit of a strange ratio. Having said that, you know, NC two

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a's is more important and NC two a scoring squad is 18. So 30 is a, is a good ratio to

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that. You know, I think that that works just fine to be honest. I'm still baffled at 22

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from the sec. That just seems so low. Um, it, it, that would be challenging because

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I've said it, I think I've said it two or three episodes in a row. You have no room

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for error with that. You get a couple of major injuries or you get hit with the flu across

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the team at the wrong time and you just don't have backup. And am I seeing that right or

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wrong? Yeah, I think you're right. But I think the decision makers for them, that factor

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is not really that important. Yeah. Cause it's not swim coaches who are making those

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decisions. Right. You know, right. I don't think they want to be limited to 22 at all.

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Right. Yeah. Every swim coach in the country fully agrees with what you just said, you

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know, but that, you know, we swim coaches aren't really decision makers on that kind

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of stuff. Yeah. When we had coach Dorn caught on a few episodes ago, he talked about when

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he, he first joined Ohio state was talking to their AD and they were talking about the

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ideal roster size. And they did that research on, you know, the historically this is how

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Indiana, this is how Florida, this is, this is the number of athletes they've had on the

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team. And if we want to follow that pattern, you know, we need to, we need to mimic that.

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All that just went out the window. All of that is done now. Now you have roster limits.

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And I think that's going to be a, a really interesting challenge moving forward is balancing

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that, that development versus when now, because you just, you're not going to have that deep

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bench that you've had in the past, especially when you add in divers and that's the thing

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divers count toward the roster. Yeah. Sure. Okay. It'll raise some questions for some

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teams about like, how much do we continue to invest in diving or not? And I think that

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that's a legitimate concern for the diving coach community. You know, it's like, yeah,

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there's some powerhouse programs where they may just, you know, cause there's a lot of

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programs where the head coach is the swimming coach. So there's a bias that's built in there,

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you know, and there's a lot of really high level diving coaches who are a little frightened

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by that scenario, which is totally understandable. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's in it. Diving

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is its own world. It's, it's, it's a, but they're, they're getting caught in the wake

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of all of this as well. And it's going to be interesting to see how that evolves too.

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Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. All right. So let's talk about coaching, your coaching style.

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So you, you've been working on a system for years. That's worked out really, really well,

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you know, the, have you tweaked that at all now that you're at Arizona or is it, is it

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always evolving? Like, tell me, tell me how you are evolving as a coach through, through

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the changes that you've seen in, in the water and out of the water. Yeah, no, it's the right

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question to ask. You know, what interesting aspect to me is like, even compared to 10

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years ago, you know, the, the technological tools we have, like they're coming at you,

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like pretty fast and furious right now. You can't do all of them. And so you, you have

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to ask the question. We actually had a, like a staff meeting on this just yesterday. If

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that's two questions, I think the first being like, well, what's the problem that I see

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with our athletes? Like what, what, what are the problems that stand out? And then the

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second one is like, which of all these technological tools really is the strongest lever? And what

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I'm talking about, like technological tools, I mean, you can do, and there's some are quite

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old and proven and some are brand new and there's everything in between. I mean, you

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know, you can do lactate testing, you can invest in a velocity meter, you can invest

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in a force paddle, you can, you know, on your hands, you can invest in heart rate monitors,

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you can invest in something that's like monitors your HRV and your sleep and your recovery.

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You can invest. I mean, like the list goes on and on. And you know, like you could try

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to do all of them, but at some point, like, unless you've got like a full-time position

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for a high performance person who is doing all of those things, you know, at some point,

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you've got to choose like, okay, these are the ones, these are the strongest levers and

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they fix what we are seeing as a problem. And so that's an interesting conversation

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because there's a lot out there. And so, yeah, like seeking like, I think moving to a new

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program has given me the opportunity to hit the reset button on that and look at all of

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them again, brand new, fresh eyes, you know, like the system we are going at, you know,

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the product. And so that was good. Now it's like, okay, it's a great time to like take

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a step back and be like, all right, like it was working, but are there better tools, you

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know? So.

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And my theory is that, you know, and this is a big part of what SwimIntel does for research

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is researching not just what happens when they get to you in college, but what were

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they, how are they training back in high school at club level?

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Yeah.

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And I think that there is a setup that the club coaches do for you that helps them acclimate

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their freshman year and then even, you know, progress through because we've made no secret

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about it. There are clubs that produce athletes that have huge time drops through college.

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And then of course, there's the opposite. So you've had in the past, you have been remarkable

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at identifying talent that's going to progress. Have you, do you look at the clubs themselves

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and what the clubs are doing with those athletes when they're in high school to help you understand

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how they're going to fit in your system?

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Yeah, I think you have to. Yes, I definitely do. And that doesn't mean that you pass on

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an athlete that is, you know, in a club where they're, they're probably very close to their,

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they're seeing already, you know, like that, that could be the right athlete for your program

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at that time, you know. But, but yeah, you have to look at what they're bringing to the

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table and what factors not only in training, but in life that might have affected their

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improvement curves. And then, you know, there's no exact science there. As you know, you can

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gather the data and make some projections. But there's a lot, there's, there's too many

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factors to pin it on. Okay, it's, they, they lifted in high school or they didn't. They,

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you know, like, it's like, yeah, we, we picked up a young guy who we think is going to be

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really good. And, you know, he came from Maui. Well, you know, the guy barely competed for

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a year because of all the fires on Maui that just destroyed that poor community. You know,

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it's like, well, yeah, like, how good is this guy going to be? It's hard to say, you know,

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because there's a lot of factors there. But we think the fact that he couldn't train for

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a year, you know, and now he's back on track, like probably gives them a high ceiling. So,

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you know, like that's, there's all those, all those X factors you have to weigh, you

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know? Yeah. I think that, I think we need to do a better job of recognizing and rewarding

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those club coaches that get so much out of those athletes and they go on to college and

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continue that, that same curve, because you can, you can become a gold medal USA swimming

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club when now, and then just kill the kids and they don't want to swim anymore. Right.

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That's a, that's a way to do it. And, you know, I think some club coaches might be motivated

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for, you know, that like, this is what happens this season, but there are some club coaches

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that I have just infinite amount of respect for that don't just win there. They focus

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so hard on setting those athletes up for success at the next level and they do not get enough

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credit for what they're doing. And hopefully that's something that, that we help to bring

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to light at swim and tell. Yeah. Well, and it's, I mean, you know, swim clubs are business.

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So if you're in a crowded swimming market, you know, and you are able to thrive as a

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business while still developing athletes who have their best years in college, like that's

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a very tricky balance. And I agree hats off to club coaches who, who can do that. That,

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that is a great point because a lot of people don't think about the business of clubs. Clubs

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are, are typically private entities. They're there. They can be nonprofit, but they're

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still trying to make payroll. Right. And so a lot of it comes down to enrollment. And

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you think about, it's a complicated equation for a club to produce athletes that thrive

379
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,880
at the national level while in high school, as well as keep the enrollment up and then,

380
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,880
and then, you know, develop them so they're ready to be passed to you. And, you know,

381
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,080
if you think just the challenge of when do they start developing their athletes, do they

382
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,580
start them when they're, you know, nine, 10, 11 years old, are they just really good at

383
00:33:17,580 --> 00:33:21,280
developing seniors? But in the end, they start to make payroll. And a lot of people don't

384
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,760
think about that. You know, how many coaches do they have on deck? How many kids per lane

385
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,720
do they have? Are they financially stable? Because if enrollment's low, you may not have

386
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,600
a coach next year. Right. And I think it's, it's more complicated than people realize.

387
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,280
I think that everybody's just focused on their athlete and getting their athlete to the next

388
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,800
level. But those club coaches, man, they have a lot to deal with. So again, a lot of respect

389
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:48,400
for what they do. Yeah, indeed. Yes. All right. So let's shift gears for a second. We've talked

390
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:56,000
a lot in past episodes about in season swimming in college. Does it need to be more exciting?

391
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,320
You know, do we need to change the format? Do dual meets make sense? As a head coach,

392
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,400
you know, do you like the format the way it is? Do you like the dual meet format format?

393
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,000
Coach Parisi talked about how he really likes invitationals. They're more, they're more

394
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,200
similar to conference, and he's doing more of those. What do you think about the way

395
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,400
we do it in season now? Do you want to do you want to change things up? Or do you like

396
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:28,600
the way it's going? Yeah, it's, it's tough to change dual meets up without. And what

397
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,000
Brian said is an interesting point, because he's like, Yeah, I'm not here to change the

398
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,080
dual meet system. I'm just going to have less of them and I'm going to go to more invites.

399
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,440
So you know, that's, that's, I think, you know, in line with what I'd expect from from

400
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,120
Brian in terms of just like thinking outside the box and go in his own path, you know,

401
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:52,140
the, the, the paradigm is the thing, you know, so it's like, if you got an ISL paradigm,

402
00:34:52,140 --> 00:34:58,280
you know, like, you can make dual meets more exciting, because they are the thing. But

403
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,200
right now our paradigm is that NC two days is the thing. Like, that's where you get ranks.

404
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:08,480
That's where you win. That's where you show your athletic director like, hey, we're doing

405
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:16,240
the right job. So yeah, so what's the focus? You know, like, if the focus is NC two days,

406
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,880
well then, yeah, it's tough to change the whole dual meet the dual meet paradigm, I

407
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:26,640
think, like, it's kind of got to exist the way it is to some degree. Yeah, it's interesting.

408
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:34,880
You get these, these really wide variations of philosophy around dual meets. Some coaches,

409
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,600
you never see them put on suits except for the traditional mid season and then championship.

410
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,000
Other coaches like to swim fast all the time. Where do you stand in terms of just swimming

411
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,400
fast? Do you like your kids swimming fast? dual meets? Or do you are you saving that

412
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:53,200
for those, you know, yeah, I have a little bit of a yin and yang answer for for you there,

413
00:35:53,200 --> 00:36:00,320
like, I mean, fascinating is always good, you know, like, is there value in, you know,

414
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,920
working really hard to execute something when you don't feel perfect? I do think there is.

415
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,920
And so on that side of it, I trend a little bit more towards the traditional in the sense

416
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:16,040
that like, yeah, you have to put some level of work in so that you have to step up and

417
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:22,040
go race speed, even if you're not feeling perfect, and still execute well and, you know,

418
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,920
and not worry as much about the time, you know, so that I that I think is, is still

419
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:33,840
my philosophy, we take a long arc to the season with with with fewer peaks. So that's the

420
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:39,920
overarching philosophy. You know, having said that, you know, like things like suiting up

421
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,280
like routinely, it's like, yeah, like the suit changes how you float in the water, it

422
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:50,840
changes your stroke count, it changes your execution. So yeah, so is suiting up a lot,

423
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,720
like a part of the process of being ready to be your best at the end? Absolutely. You

424
00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,800
know, like, just sort of like full on garbage, you know, is also bad, because then same thing,

425
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,360
your stroke counts different, you can't hold your rate. Well, that's equally bad, you know,

426
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:12,280
so we got to, we got to use meets as rehearsals. And so then you have to hit a sweet spot in

427
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,920
terms of being able to step up and perform to at least a certain level. Otherwise, you're

428
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:25,600
also not getting the benefit of it, you know, so, you know, but like, I'll give you an example,

429
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,960
like, it gets in here, like we had a dual meet in the fall with it with a team that,

430
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,000
you know, on paper, we're probably a little bit better than we lost that meet. And it's

431
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,480
like, okay, like, yeah, you know, like, was that a miss? Like, did we not prepare well?

432
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,640
Or were we just working really hard? And they were a little fresher? I think that was the

433
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,440
case. Time will tell in the end of big 12s and NC2As, you know, but like, I'm not gonna

434
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,920
I'm not gonna lose sleep over that, you know, like, I'm not gonna regret pushing my team

435
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,880
hard at certain points of the season, you know. We had a really close dual meet. This

436
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:05,040
was an interesting one. We had a close dual meet with Minnesota three weeks ago. And yeah,

437
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,520
it was it was really interesting. Because we came down to the last relay, we were we

438
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:15,680
were, we won both relays, we won the women's, we split the guys relays, we went one two

439
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,800
there, which we needed to do. And so we you know, we ended up a few points ahead on each

440
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:26,040
side. But diving was still going on. So the meet wasn't over. And so everybody rushed

441
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:31,080
over to the diving well. And like, it was cool, because it's rare that you see diving

442
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:36,680
get like a bottom of the ninth kind of scenario, you know, but that's what it was. It's like,

443
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,440
you know, we were all doing the math. And it's like, on the women's side, our divers

444
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,560
needed to get this and that in order to win. And then, you know, the guy side, and for

445
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,840
me, for my perspective, was really cool, like, the divers felt the energy, the whole team

446
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,360
was engaged, like, I really loved it. And I was talking to my friend, Coach Kelly Kramer,

447
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,080
who's the head coach at Minnesota after the meet. And his perspective was different. He

448
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:02,200
was like, man, that was terrible. He's like, because, you know, he's like, did you notice

449
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,720
the spectators or the administrators in the stands, you know, like, a, they didn't really

450
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,640
fully understand what was going on and what hung in the balance. And B, like, everybody

451
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,560
rushed over the diving well. And most of the spectators didn't, they peaced out, you know.

452
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,240
So he's like, what a missed opportunity. He's like, that would have been way better if,

453
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:25,120
you know, we could have like, done the last relay and everybody knew that last relay decided

454
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,660
it. He's like, that would have been more exciting for the spectator. So that was interesting

455
00:39:28,660 --> 00:39:34,200
to chat back and forth with him about that. And this getting a little away from your like,

456
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,960
suit question. Do you suit? Do you not? Do you swim fast? Do you not? But I think it

457
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,080
pertains to your overarching question of like, are dual meets exciting enough? Do we keep

458
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,280
them the way they are? You know, because it's not that often that you get a dual meet that

459
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,520
comes down to the last events and everybody's kind of sitting on the edge of their seat.

460
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,920
Let's be honest, most college dual meets are not that way. So.

461
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,120
And like you said, it's not like most scoreboards show you the tally. And if you're relying

462
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,200
on MeetMobile, well, I mean, I don't know how that goes. I mean, you may or may not

463
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,560
may not love for you. Right. So why do we not just put the score up on the scoreboard?

464
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:13,440
Like like the only sport that doesn't do this. It drives me nuts. Yeah. But when you get

465
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,800
dual meets like the one you just described, those are awesome. Those are so fun. And that's

466
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:23,000
that's it out that opportunity to pull the spectators in and engage with them and, you

467
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:29,160
know, make that that ending exciting. And I think that's a great example of where little

468
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:36,400
things that we miss sometimes in the. So, yeah. You talked about dual meets being a

469
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,760
rehearsal. How do you, you know, at the end of a dual meet or an invitational, what do

470
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,680
you and the coaching staff do? Do you guys do you guys go back through and debrief on

471
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:52,680
every swim? How do you how do you evaluate performance and how does it change maybe what

472
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,880
you do in the water that the next few weeks with swimmers that either are or are not on

473
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,320
that path that you want them on? Yeah, we definitely do that. It's really important.

474
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,440
And you know, like I think there's a few stages to it. There's the right after the meet, you

475
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,120
know, and then there's like the like the car ride home and then there's like the Monday

476
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,680
morning, you know. So it's like, you know, what you notice at each of those stages is

477
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,640
different. I think all three can be beneficial, you know, like when you just wrap the meat,

478
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,920
like, OK, what what what's on your mind? What's on your heart? Yeah, you got to talk about

479
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,480
that as a staff and then, you know, a car ride home like I was leaning over the seat

480
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,040
of the bus on Saturday after getting something by ASU, you know, like, hey, Amanda, what

481
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:41,400
did you notice? You know, like Coach Amanda Beard, you know, it's like and then, you know,

482
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,840
and then we absolutely Monday morning staff meeting. It's like, OK, like, let's make a

483
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:51,560
list here. Like what did we miss? How do we do better? What was when, you know, and that's

484
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:58,760
a really important process to you. We had we had a benefit. We've got, you know, somebody

485
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,480
working with us in a consultant capacity. And that's cool because they were able to

486
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,200
kind of watch the meat on Saturday from like from the stands, just like the eye of the

487
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,240
sky, not worrying about it because, you know, as a coach on the pool deck, like a lot of

488
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:15,080
what you're doing is relational. Talking to athletes, you're engaging, you're teaching,

489
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,120
you're correcting, you're motivating, you're picking up the pieces, you know, and that's

490
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,080
that's your job as a coach on the pool deck, you know, to have somebody like eye in the

491
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,120
sky, like watching from the stands, you know, and then that was a part of my debrief process

492
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,920
as well. You know, it's like, OK, spent half an hour on the phone Saturday night with him.

493
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:38,480
It's like, yeah, what did you see? What did I miss? You know, and that was really actually

494
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:44,200
pretty productive. Like, yeah, that coach said some things I was like, right. Good point.

495
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,280
I miss that, you know, because you're just in it, you know, you're just in it. And so

496
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:53,560
I think all of those those levels of analysis are very, very important. And then I think

497
00:42:53,560 --> 00:43:00,200
I've done a better job certainly this year, but even in last year, like, you know, just

498
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:06,720
being like to make it a systematic part of what we do to review video one on one after

499
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:12,040
every competition. Like, that's not something that I think 10 years ago I was taking the

500
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:19,560
time to do, but we do now. And it's that's that's really productive as well, because

501
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:24,560
it gets to your point, your question rather about like, like, does it change training?

502
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,040
Well, yeah, like I've got a main set plan today. It's Tuesday. We're suiting up this

503
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:34,280
afternoon and I watch a video with one of my guys who's 100 fly 100 free. And he ain't

504
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,840
doing that set anymore because we watch some stuff. I was like, you know, and he noticed

505
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,840
a few things, you know, it wasn't all me. Like, we're sitting there watching it together

506
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,160
and he's like, he's like, look at my stroke rate. I was like, good point. Like, you know,

507
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,920
so we designed another set for him today that's going to be a different focus, you know. So

508
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,680
yeah, it definitely affects it. And this is a great point. You know, you talked about

509
00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:01,800
earlier, it's coaching staff to athlete ratio, right? And if you have 90 swimmers on your

510
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,840
team and you have two coaches, it's really difficult to give that kind of individualization

511
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,520
because you can't do it at the time of resources, right? So this is where you do need it. And

512
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,080
this, this goes to the student athletes and the parents too. You want to look at that,

513
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:22,520
you know, where, where you're going to swim at. It can be absolutely an advantage of having

514
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,920
extra sets of eyes, even if it's a consultant in the stands, being able to point some things

515
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,840
out that because you've got, you've got a lot of swimmers in the water and you're dealing

516
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,800
with a lot of things on deck. So it's, that's a wonderful point. It's a wonderful point.

517
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:41,480
Okay. Let's switch gears to the last question. So Arizona has got a lot of really great athletics.

518
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,880
And I ask this question every time, you know, outside of swimming, you know, what, what,

519
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,560
what's your favorite sport to watch at Arizona? What's, what, what do I gotta go see when

520
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,280
I, when I visit you out there? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, like I, I'm a little bit

521
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,480
different answer on this one, Jamie, like I'm probably not your best resource because

522
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,720
like, um, you know, I, I'm, I'm a little strange. I got, I love sports that don't make any money,

523
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:09,060
you know, like that's, that's, that's my, you know, we just won the national championship

524
00:45:09,060 --> 00:45:14,560
in triathlon. Like we've got the number one collegiate triathlon team in the country and

525
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:20,160
uh, they're obviously, they, they share a facility with us clearly. And um, so just

526
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:25,640
in terms of all the sports here, they're really close squad to us. Um, but uh, I love their

527
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,580
energy. I love their coaching staff. Like I think that they're, and it's a, it's a super

528
00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:33,240
fun emerging sport. Like it's not emerging in terms of like, like triathlon has been

529
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:37,800
around a long time, but emerging in terms of NC2A competition, you know? And so, um,

530
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:43,080
yeah, I think they're just a really smart squad and, and uh, what they're doing is,

531
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:49,000
is pretty top level just in terms of, uh, the world stage, which I find pretty cool

532
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,160
too, you know, like, uh, it's like, yeah, like that, that person in that, in the water

533
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,480
right there, like, uh, yeah, they're going to be like, uh, they're going to, you're going

534
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,560
to watch them in the Olympics in LA, like, you know, they're pretty top level outside

535
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,200
of just collegiate competition, which I find super motivating as well. You know, Arizona

536
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:15,720
swimming and diving has always been based on that, that paradigm. And so, uh, I love

537
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:20,400
that about our triathlon squad. So anyway, I mean, that's, that's my pick, but, um, you

538
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,120
know, as you probably know, our baseball, softball, basketball here, they've been pretty,

539
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,760
pretty top notch for a lot of decades, you know? So those are always fun.

540
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:33,080
There's no shortage of sports to watch at Arizona. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And it's

541
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:39,560
kind of cool because it's like, there are no real pro sports teams in town. And so, yeah,

542
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,200
it's all Arizona sports, which is, uh, which is a fun vibe. Like, you know, like it's like

543
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,880
the community shows up for everything, which is cool. You know, that, that, that's what

544
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,740
makes it a great college environment right there. I love that. That's what there, there's

545
00:46:51,740 --> 00:46:57,440
nothing like college sports and, uh, and that, that environment is, is so much fun. Yeah.

546
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,880
Coach, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate you taking the time, the insights.

547
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,880
I know you get ready for conference, so that's going to be really fun to watch. Uh, good

548
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,640
luck the rest of the season and, uh, we cannot wait to see how you guys do. Thanks, Jeremy.

549
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:32,360
I appreciate the time and just all the conversation. All right. Awesome. Thanks, coach.