Welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight. I am Jamie Bailey and today's guest is a coach
whose stock is quickly rising in the world of college swimming. Coach Matthew Gearing
is in his third season as the head coach at Catawba College. Last season he was named
the South Atlantic Conference Men's Coach of the Year after leading both his men's and
women's team to their best ever finish at conference championships. Most recently Catawba
was named the number one most improved Division II team for both men and women by SwimCloud.
Before taking over at Catawba, Coach Gearing worked as an assistant at several top tier
powerhouse programs including Florida State, Indiana, and Queens. Coach, it is great to
have you on today. Yeah, thanks, Jamie. I appreciate it. It's episode six for you guys
and first D2 coach, which is awesome and had a lot of a lot of really good guests so far.
So I'm excited to join the conversation. Oh yeah, this one's gonna be fun. Okay, so
so this is your first head coaching role, right? But you've had the chance to work with
some incredible coaches like, you know, David Marsh, Jeff Dugdale, Ray Luce, Neil Stud.
So you know, what are some of the biggest lessons you picked up from them that, you
know, kind of prepared you to take over the reins at Catawba? Yeah. All of them have,
have taught me a lot of different things and and they're all very different individuals,
different coaches, the way they go about things. And I think they all have success in their
own way, which is really cool. So that, that first and foremost, like, you know, I think
when you look at the sport of swimming, there's not one way to do it. There's a lot of different
ways to get to the same end result, which is really cool. You know, you mentioned David
Marsh and Jeff Dugdale, like those, those are the guys that that gave me the start.
I had a weird entry into swimming where I didn't actually swim in college myself. I
ended up having three heart surgeries and two in high school. I'm sorry, one in high
school to my freshman year of college. And so swimming competitively for me was kind
of was done in high school, it just wasn't going to happen. And I felt like I wanted
to get into coaching. So reached out to Jeff at Queens and had just said, Hey, I think
I want to do this and work for free and come and, and do whatever you want me to do. And
of course, you know, someone emails me that I'm going to say, Absolutely, come on, let's
let's see what we can do here. And Jeff was awesome. I mean, from the beginning, just
owe so much to him. Incredible mentor. And, you know, really no better place at that time,
all of 2015 is when I started at Queens, no better place, I feel like in the country,
because we also had some Mac team elite going on with with Coach Marsh. I got there and
within a few months, he was named the head coach for the 2016 US team for the women.
And I just got to be a sponge. And I just hung out at practice, I was spending, I was
spending literally my entire day at the pool deck. If I was not in class, then I was I
was out on the pool deck there and just logged a lot of hours and watched and listened and
helped when I could and got more responsibilities as the years went on. I was at Queens for
four years and worked with Coach Marsh for those four years as well. And yeah, it was
it was awesome. I think from David, you see like, what is what are the best athletes doing?
You know, at that time, we had Ryan Lochte, Tyler Clary, Kathleen Baker, Katie Miley,
Yosuke Irie, a Japanese backstroker came and joined us. We had a group of Israeli athletes
that were incredible. And yeah, it was just cool, like, the to see the creativity and
to see the just broadness of training for for one coach to have for a group of professionals
was like, really eye opening. Like, that was my entryway into coaching. So that was really
cool. And then on the college side with with Jeff and Queens, like, I mean, gosh, like,
my first year there, they had just come off winning their first national championship,
so that they had done it. Right. They guess I kind of missed the fun part, because it's
always harder to sustain it. Yeah. And we felt that. And I and I think from Jeff, it's
how do you build a championship team? How do you build a championship culture? And then
probably the piece that I got to see the most was like, how do you sustain that? It's easy.
Maybe not easy. It's easier to win one, right? You can win one and then you're gone. But
like, I was there for four years, and we won all four years, both men and women. So, you
know, eight national championships, and then they continue to do it once I left. So that
was really just like peak swimming, which was was awesome for my gateway into into
coaching. And then I went to Indiana and and had an awesome experience and got to spend
time with Ray and really great staff there. Corey Chitwood was there. Johnny Skinner,
John Long, who was actually at Queens with me. John's one of my best friends and got
to just learn a completely different style. I mean, there's there's a, I would say not
a lot of similarities between the two programs, which is cool. You know, it's like, hey, this
is something that I don't know anything about. And let's watch and this is a, you know, power
five. And that was a bit of a weird year because that finishing that year in March is when
COVID happened. And so we didn't get to go to NCA. I didn't get to do that. I didn't.
We were preparing for trials. We had, you know, Lilly King and Cody Miller and Annie
Laser and Zach Apple, Blake Peroni, just like a huge group of pros there. So I kind of got
to continue with the pro side, which was really fun. But we didn't get to necessarily see
that out. And so that was like, okay, how do you, how do these people handle adversity?
You know, we had Lilly and Cody and a group of pros that were driving an hour and 15 minutes
one way to go swim a backyard pool as some lady that we found in Indianapolis, just to
keep it going because we didn't know what was happening, you know, on a global stage.
So that was, that was really cool. You know, Florida State was another one, just being
in the ACC, getting to from afar, watch, watch UVA, watch Todd, watch Gretchen, watch, watch
what they're doing and being in a program that got to regularly compete with the best
teams. That was, that was really cool. And then, you know, something that's not maybe
mentioned just because it's not a power five or four now. My time at, in Arkansas, at Little
Rock was like really transformational for me. That was my first time where I kind of
got to like do things on my own. And my head coach there, Amy Burgess, like absolutely
love her. She just entrusted me with the world and allowed me to kind of come in and do my
thing and make changes. And she wanted me to challenge her. And I loved it there. Like
that, we, my wife and I look back on those, those years, that year, 14 months that we
were there, it was, it was a short stay, unfortunately, but very fondly. And, and that, you know,
I learned so much from, from my, my previous stops and I got, kind of got to use it all
at that point and felt like I kind of knew what I was doing. So that, that probably helped
me a lot, you know, more of the use the knowledge where, where the beginning was like, all right,
I'm gaining a lot of knowledge. And then I got to use it and, and get the confidence
of like, okay, I, I know what I'm doing. And I take things from everywhere with, with where
I'm at now at Kitaba. And that's been cool. I mean, I look back a lot at what we did on
some of those places and still talk to, to a lot of those coaches and get opinions and
advice and they're awesome to, to be able to provide some, some feedback to me and help
me if I'm, tell me I'm on the right track or maybe help me and figure out something
different that I might need to change. So, so last episode, coach Pree talked about how
he's still on his four year plan 38 seasons later, right? So, you know, do you have a
four year plan? Is it, is it going according to plan? Oh man. Yeah. I feel like all the
kids like, Hey, this is my junior year. You know, we're still, I think figuring things
out here. The, the first year is crazy. Like, you know, like you said, first time head coach,
I was 26 when I got hired, I think maybe 25. So I was, I was young, right? My, my wife
and I were newly married. We, we just had a son. We moved here and things were crazy.
I think I got here like a week before the student athletes in August and I had, you
know, the gear, the, had to make some meat schedule changes, had to just, what's a schedule
at a higher an assistant, just like so many things that you don't really have any sort
of previous knowledge on as an assistant coach. So that was like kind of just a whirlwind
the whole year. And last year, year two, like, all right, have, have some things settled
a little bit more and felt like we were, we're kind of moving in a good direction and this
year's like really taken off. And I think had you told me, had anyone told me where
we would be at two and a half years when I took the job, I, I don't think I would have
believed it. We, we've done some really incredible things that I'm really proud of. I'm proud
of our staff, proud of our student athletes. And I really don't think they thought that
that was possible either. I mean, we still have kids on our team, seniors right now that
were coached by the old staff and our junior class, you know, my, myself and my one assistant
has been with me the whole time. They've been our first year, but we didn't recruit them.
Right. So they came in kind of thinking one thing and they got something totally different.
So, yeah, I think, you know, four year plan, maybe hard to say, I definitely got a long
term kind of vision of what we're trying to do. And I think we're, we're ahead of, ahead
of schedule for that.
Okay. So you talked about recruiting there for a second. So let's, let's dig in there.
So, all right. So you're in North Carolina, right? And North Carolina, it's, it's a huge
swimming hotspot. You, you have a ton of great clubs. You talked about swim back earlier.
You have tap titans, you have others. And there's also a lot of college programs in
the state. There's actually 26 colleges in the state that, of North Carolina that have
a swimming program, which is a lot. So you've grown your team down to about 20 men, 21 women
this year, but about half your roster is international. So was that by design or did, or did it just
kind of happen? And, and has finding athletes that fit in your system, the system that you've
learned over the years, has that been one of the bigger challenges in building your
program early on?
Yeah. Yeah. North Carolina is awesome for all of those reasons. You said the, the club
swimming, the recruiting piece of it's awesome. The number of colleges makes it really easy
to travel for dual meets. And then, yeah, I mean, you said you mentioned team size there,
you know, my first year when I got here, we had, we had 10 men on the roster. And I was
like, Oh, wow, that's a rough spot to start. And I wasn't recruiting anyone in August.
So we had 10 last year, year two, we had 15. And then this year we have 20. So that's been
a really nice kind of jump in progression on the women's side. We had 14 when I got
here, 19 last year, and now 21. So that's been been awesome. We've been lucky that we've
been a young team for the most part. We've, we haven't graduated a ton of people each
year, just kind of by the nature of what it was when we came in. And then yeah, we have
a ton of internationals. And that is by design, you know, one of my goals, and one of the
things I was, I talked to my AD, my AD about when I was coming here was, you know, we want
to have a team that looks like the world. We want to create an environment and an atmosphere
for people from all over to come and be a part of a program and have like minded individuals
that have similar goals to them and all work towards achieving those both, both team and
individual. We have 18 countries right now represented on our team, including the US,
right? So 17 international. And that is absolutely incredible. It is fun on a daily basis. I think
it provides a lot of opportunities for our athletes. This past summer, we had, we have
a guy that lives in Romania. And we have a guy from Atlanta, Georgia, from Boston, Massachusetts
and Poland. They the three of them went to Romania and spent three weeks there with with
our other guy. And, you know, you're not getting that opportunity at a lot of places or from
a lot of other kind of outlets other than, you know, college swimming with with international
athletes. So we have people go to Germany and spend time with our athletes over the
summer in Spain, and they have fun with it. And I think that's awesome. You know, your
question of is it has it been hard finding people that maybe fit into what we're doing
here? I don't think so. So far, it hasn't been. And I think part of that reason is because
I wouldn't say that we necessarily have a set in stone type of program. I feel that
what we do really well is we try to fit the program around the athlete, not necessarily
the athlete for the program. You know, it's not a one size fits all type model. Jeff Dugdale
is great at quoting it's one size fits one, right? Everybody's going to be different.
We treat everybody the same by treating them equal. And so, you know, we're going to do
things that are different for each person. The schedules that we have are pretty crazy
that the movement that we do throughout a week for an athlete is pretty different. And
everybody's everybody's different than that. You know, we do have kind of the typical sprint
mid D distance type of groups, but we have a few people that see all groups throughout
the week. And we have a lot of people who bounce back and forth. And it's maybe it's
just we just get creative with it really and try to make sure that we're fitting what needs
to be done for that specific athlete. And so I think that's been really helpful for
us. And I also think we adapt and change a lot as we as we learn things about our athletes,
you know, freshman year, we're really just trying to figure out the person we we have
our preconceived notions of, hey, we think this is going to work. And we go through the
year and, and I would say we're pretty spot on about 95% of the time and that other 5%.
All right, we were a little off here and we need to make some adjustments. And the great
thing is we make those adjustments and then your two tends to be a little bit better for
that person. So we're not afraid to do that. We're not afraid to move people around. Because
at the end of the day, we want to do what's best for them.
Yeah, so you talked about individualization and being able to, I really like that quote,
fit the program around the athlete. Yeah. So when you look at top, it's a smaller school,
you have about 1100 students enrolled. But what I was really surprised about was you
actually have two assistant coaches. And that's more than than most programs can say, you
know, it's you don't see a lot of programs that have, you know, large staffs these days,
you have about a 40 swimmer team, three coaches, that's actually a really good ratio for giving
those athletes individual attention, which is something that with the athletes that we
work with, that's one of the things that we talk about, you know, is, you know, if you
have a team that's got 90, 90 swimmers, and they have two coaches, that's, that's, that's
a tough ratio, right. But you know, the kind of support where you get two assistant coaches
that usually points to having a pretty strong backing from your athletic department, your
administration. So what can you tell me about the vision for Katawa swimming between you
and your athletic director? Yeah, I mean, my AD Michelle Katigan is awesome. I mean,
took a took a chance on a 2025 26 year old to kind of come in. And, you know, we talked
a lot about what I wanted to do. You know, at that time, it was probably like, okay,
we'll see if this happens or not. And if it does, that's great. And if it doesn't, like,
you know, it is what it is. And it has and I think we've done more than like I said,
what I expected in this timeframe. And I think what a lot of people probably expected as
well. But we have a ton of support and having two assistant coaches, that's a new thing
for us this year. We were able to get another position this past summer. And that's been
an incredible addition to to our program. It's made it easier on me, which I've really
appreciated. It's made it easier on my other assistant coach, right, we can just delegate
a little bit more, we can, we can split up the work a little bit more. It's important
for me that we all get our rest and that we, you know, aren't just running ourselves ragged
the entire year. You know, I have a family have a wife and a son, and that's important
to me. So making sure I can do what I need to do in my family obligations and, and have
the trust that they're gonna do what needs to be done and the way that it needs to be
done. That's that's been really big. And it's been great. You know, I think the vision for
the program is really, is really strong. And I think we have a definitely a multiple multi
year plan here, you know, our first year, our men got fourth conference last year, we
got second. And so, you know, our goal for sure, on the on the men's side is to win.
We want to win our conference championship, that is 100% our goal. On the women's side,
we got third our first year, which was awesome, we should have gotten fourth. And then we
got got third last year. And that was a very different type of third. I think we cut, I'd
have to go back and look, but we cut down like over 600 points from that second place
and we got really close. And that was our goal. Like our goal, we set out the year of
like, hey, we're gonna get close here, because we knew what what we did the year before.
And so yeah, I think the goal for them as well is to win. And I think both teams are
really probably on a similar timeline of achieving that goal. So that's really fun. And that's
really exciting. And I think you said it earlier, both our men's and our women's were the most
improved team and in division two in 2024. And I think that's great, because it's both.
It's not one or the other. It's not Oh, my gosh, Kataba has an awesome men's team or
an awesome women's team. Like, no, both of our teams are really good. Which is really
fun. It's you don't maybe see that everywhere. I think, you know, sometimes there's there's
one better than the other. Yeah, that that's kind of more short term of what we want to
accomplish. And then long term, it's it's getting people continually and consistently
qualified to the NCAA national championship. Our first year, we qualified a woman, which
hadn't happened since 2001. So that had been 22 years, we did it in year one. And she went
on and became an All American as a freshman, score points and got Kataba up on the board,
which was really exciting. Last year, we had three women qualify. So that was like, Oh,
my gosh, this is great. We're we got some people here. And we had a guy. That was the
first time for a guy since 2017. And he was he was incredible. Conference summer of the
year as a freshman for us. All American seventh in the 100 breaststroke 16th in the 200 freestyle.
He did he did wonderful things there and getting us on the map on the men's side. And so yeah,
that's that's the goal. We want to continue doing that. We'll see what this year brings.
We feel pretty good with with some of the people that we have in position right now.
We have a men's relay qualified automatically. That hasn't happened since 2017. So yeah,
we're in a good spot. But but we know that there's more there's no we know that there's
more that we want to do. So getting people qualified, and then really looking and saying,
hey, what does it take to get top 15? What does it take to get top 10? What does it take
to get top five? How do you contend for a national championship? Right? What does that
look like? And and I think my my experience of my time with with Jeff and Queens has prepared
me for that. And, you know, those are things that we're striving for. So we have some big
goals. You know, we'll see how long some of those things take us to accomplish. But I
think, like I said, we're we're on a really good, good path. And we have a ton of support
from from our administration, from our whole entire campus and and and from the institution
as a whole.
Yes, you talked about growing your roster from 10, you know, up to over 20. Right. So,
you're going to conference championships, you can take probably 1718 summers, right,
that can score points. And I think I think it's really interesting when we talk about
roster sizes, the strategy around that, right, because if you have a roster of 40, so you
know, look at what Ray Lewis has done at Indiana historically had a larger roster size, which
has allowed him kind of the freedom to do a lot of development. You know, you're going
to take your top 17, but you've got these athletes that you're building up, they're
going to contribute in big ways or junior and senior year. Whereas now with there's
so much talk about roster size restrictions with all the changes coming, you know, a smaller
roster, you don't have a lot of room for error. Right. So with with 20 men, 20 women, you
know, you you're going to take 17, you don't have a ton of room for error if you're trying
to win conference championships. And then if you're trying to develop a team that's
going to compete at NCAA as well. So what's kind of your your theoretical sweet spot?
What's the size team? If you if you had all the resources in the world, what what is your
sweet spot for roster size on your men's and women's team? Gosh, if I had every all the
resources, oh, man, it's honestly probably not too different than what it would look
like if I didn't have those resources. Really, I mean, I think 25 on each side is is what
we're shooting for. And I think I think that's a good size. You know, so we get to take 18.
We get to take 18 to our conference meet. One of the one of the really good things,
and I'll say this is awesome about our conference, we get to take everyone to our conference
meet. But we have to designate our scoring 18. And then the remainders are exhibition
athletes, but they still get a swim in prelims. So they get to go, they get to be a part of
it, they get a they get to go through the taper and the rest. And we want them to swim
fast and go best times and prelims and do all those things. And I think that's nice, because
I've not every conference does that. And at the end of the day, we're trying to provide
a good experience for our athletes, right. And I get it, like there's lines and you got
to swimming is pretty black and white, right, you're either going to score the points and
or you're not. But I still think hey, we can give this experience to those those people.
And so I really like that about our conference. But yeah, I think 25 on both sides is a really
good number. I think it's not too big. It's not too small. You get to know everybody.
And you know, it doesn't get just out of control. Because, you know, I've seen it, I've seen
where there's teams of 90, like you said, and maybe you have a ton of assistant coaches,
that's fine. But I mean, it's just it's a lot. It's a lot to manage. And I think I think
in what we do, probably in everything, I think quality is better than quantity. And and that's
kind of the motto that we live by with our staff and a training sense. And I think it's
no different probably on a recruiting sense and retention and roster size.
We had we had coach John Howe on earlier. And he talked about he has a large team, have
about 40 men and 40 women. And and he talked about, you know, he's probably going to, you
know, whittle that down to 26, 27, 28. I think that that he said that's kind of his favorite
spot to be as well. So it does feel like that 25 to 30 is a really good spot. When we're
working with the student athletes, and they're they're talking about different colleges they
want to go to. They often don't think about roster size and the implications there. Right.
So if you're going to a team that's got 18 swimmers, and you can take 18 to conference,
yeah, you're going to need to contribute from day one, right. So there can be a little bit
more pressure there. If you go to a team of 40, 17 are going to go to conference. So that
means 23 aren't or 22, depending on 17, 18. Right. And so that can that can be its own
stress. So I really I like I love those teams that kind of balance that kind of in that
25 to 30 range. But, you know, it also depends on where you're swimming. I think we've talked
about it multiple episodes, we've talked about what the power force will do with their roster
restrictions. There's there's a philosophy around that development at that highest level
of being able to have the larger teams and have that room for development. And I think
it could be restrictive. If they are forced to go down as low as 22. I don't know if they'll
really go as low as 22, maybe. But that that that that will make it that'll make it difficult.
And I think one thing that the that the athletes don't think about is the pressure of being
on a team where there's just 22 athletes and there is a win at all costs mentality. And
that's a different pressure than I think you're putting on your kids right now. And and I
don't know that some of the athletes are ready for that. Yeah, I don't know. Some of my kids
might disagree with you. I'm a I'm a competitive guy. And I got a competitive staff, which
is is is helpful when we all get together. Yeah, I think, you know, the development verse
when now transfer portal type deal. It's a tough one. You know, we've utilized the transfer
portal over the past two years and our recruiting cycle. We're probably going to utilize it
again. And it's worked out for us. It's really done done really good things for us. I don't
think it's the way to live and die by. I think it can win you championships. And I think
we've seen that in swimming. I think we've seen that. I mean, you know, I'd love to win
a championship next year. So, you know, if that's a path and like, hey, maybe that's
that's something to consider. But I also think it's really nice to have someone for four
years. And it's really nice to be able to get to know them and watch them grow and develop.
And you can do a little bit more with them. And so that piece of I don't think that piece
is going to go away. I don't even think it's going to go away a power power for us. I think
it changes. And I think it looks a little bit different. And you know, you had coach
Doran caught on. And they're talking about the club system with college. I think that
I think that's going to happen. You know, I think kids are going to kids are going to
want to be at Ohio State because it's Ohio State. Right. Even if it's the club team and
they're going to work their way up. Some of them for sure are going to do that. You have
a ton of examples of late bloomers who weren't great, weren't going to an awesome school.
One of these schools that everyone thinks of at a high school and then they just something
happens and they're incredible. And you know, I think my easy example is Zach Apple because
he's one of my best friends. You know, Zach wasn't one of the top recruits coming out
of high school. He developed a lot and he got really good his senior year and then some
things with his recruiting process changed with the school he was committed to and then
ended up going to Auburn. And like that was an awesome thing for him and then and transferred
to Indiana and continued there and made the Olympic team. You know, so it's not always
like, Hey, these these top 10 kids on on swim cloud are going to going to be the best for
the next eight, 10 years. There's a lot of development in our sport. And I think that's
that's a big piece that, you know, coaches are going to have to really keep at the forefront
of their minds and make sure that they're doing the best thing, you know, whatever the
best thing they think is for the program. Yeah, yeah. So so you know this right in college
swimming, there's there's there's different ways to win. You can win because you recruit
better than everyone else. You can win because you develop better than everyone else or some
combination of the two. We talked to Doroncott pointing out to Coach Doroncott, you know,
you don't you don't have the best recruits in the Big Ten, but you win the Big Ten.
Right. And that's that's really impressive. And it's the same with Coach Dugdale at Queens,
you know, just phenomenal development. I listened to Bob Bowman speak recently, and he talked
about how the roster size restrictions, especially at the power four level, were really going
to restrict their ability to be patient with development. And he talked about, you know,
those diamonds in the rough are going to be really difficult for us to go find in development.
It was it was putting a tremendous amount of pressure to win now. And that kind of goes
back to the you know, if the SEC really does go to 22 men, right, there really isn't a
lot of room for error. And it's highly competitive. We see this in football and basketball now.
Once transfer rules change to where you don't have to sit out a year, you know, you almost
have a free agency, you throw NIL money in there. And now all of a sudden, we're starting
to get, you know, these athletes are flipping schools to go wherever they you know, whoever,
I guess has the money who needs it now. And so that you mentioned the portal. So yeah,
the transfer portal is more active. Coach Brene talked about in the last episode how,
you know, there are instances where swimmers are actually going to the highest bidders.
I think that's that is absolutely more at the very top end. But, you know, I think there
is some surprising amount of NIL money that gets thrown around even even in swimming.
But yeah, my question is, how far down do you think this is going to go in college swimming
where you have this this win now at all costs transfer portal mentality? Do you think that
it's going to stay more at that power for level, you know, even high end power for or
do you think that transfer portal mentality that that's going to come down into the, you
know, mid majors and then the high end of D two and D three, you've used the portal,
right? So is that do you think this is a trend? Are we trending more toward that now? Yeah,
I think we are. And I don't think there's any any way around it. Very honestly. Yeah,
I mean, you're definitely going to see that the power for level and I do think it's going
to trickle down. And the tough part is for these kids that are in high school right now,
like, you know, if I'm out of power for I'm probably waiting to take a kid out of the
transfer portal versus taking a freshman that I have to develop, who's maybe not going to
score points at NCAAs for two years, you know, I think it's having the honest conversation
with your administration, understanding what the goals are. Okay, like, we have these roster
limits, we have have these things we have to do now. What what do you want from us?
Because some ideas, you know, it is like, hey, you have to win right now. I don't think
we're as cutthroat as football and basketball. Which is good. All right, we don't want to
be that. But I do think there is a pretty high priority on on being successful. Sooner
rather than later. You know, talk about NLI money and everything. NIL, sorry, those get
this confused. There's no NLI anymore. And NIL money. I was one of the what was it the
Miami University men's basketball coach, I was watching that thing on him. And he was
you've seen that, right? He was, you know, they just went went on really far in the tournament,
they're excited, they're celebrating kids are in an portal. And it's like, don't you
like it here? Because like, oh, I love it here. But I'm gonna go see what I can get
somewhere else. That's crazy to me. And I don't I don't think something's going to turn
to that. I hope it doesn't. But I do think, like you said, like, there's some money getting
thrown around. I don't know how much of it really, I don't think D2 is seeing a lot of
it. I don't think we will. But I think what we probably compete with the most is those
mid major D1s who maybe have a little bit or they have the Alston money, you know, the
random $6,000 that you can just offer to anyone and for having good grades, it's like, what
the heck? So that's that's pretty crazy. And I think one of the big differences for us,
especially on the women's side is those those scholarship numbers, right? Who knows if what
it's gonna is it gonna be a lot of schools gonna go to 30? I don't know. Bob already
said that's happening at Texas. So I think everyone kind of guessed that. But the 14
is the number before right. And I don't think people I hope for for their programs that
they don't drop below that number. But let's say someone stays at 14 at a mid major school,
the max for for D2 if you're lucky to have the max is is nine point, I'm sorry, is 8.1
9.9 is D1 men, 8.1. So you know, we're, if you're lucky operating at 8.1 versus 14 for
for a mid major on the women's side. And I mean, yeah, we have we have people that have
been offered full scholarships plus, like $5,000 in their pocket. And that's like, what,
like that? That's crazy to me. And they're, of course, they're taking it. And so I think
that's probably a big challenge that we have to face. And I don't think that part's gonna
get any easier. Now, what does that look like with with the transfer portal, maybe those
some of those spots get taken and, and things like that. So it's a lot of moving parts.
And I don't think anyone has a really clear understanding of what's going to happen. I
mean, one of the things I was talking with my staff about, like, because we've talked
about it, like, hey, should we save some money for the portal this year? I mean, we kind
of want to, but we could be sitting here a year from now and be in the very same situation.
Because these roster limits, these cuts, from my understanding, I could be wrong on this.
But from my understanding, none of that's going to be official until there's like a
the judge makes the ruling. And I think that's coming in April. But I mean, April, that's
pretty late. So you know, I just think that there's so much up in the air, how many of
those kids are when I'm gonna are going to want to stay on the club teams at their at
their power for institution? Yeah, I don't know if, like I said, you know, just living
and standing alone on the portal is the right way to go. Because I think I think some people
will probably left out high and dry there. Yeah, do you think that? You know, yes, there's
lots of challenges to to the final ruling. There's nuances, there's things coming out
at the highest political levels about this. How do you think this is going to shake out
for division two swimming? Specifically, do you think these changes are going to have
a great effect on D two, just like they are in D one? Or do you think D two is going to
stay generally kind of like it has been the last few years? I think it's going to have
a positive effect on D two, I really do. Because there's going to be the kids who want to make
an impact, want to go to insta ways want to be a part of actual varsity team, not a club
team. So I do think it'll have a positive impact. And what I think is going to happen
is, is I think people are going to find out that it's not all that different from D one.
It really isn't other than the size of the school, right? And maybe some of the resources
like, hey, you're not going to get 50 t shirts throughout the year. Sorry. You know, it's
like we don't. I've been a part of some of those staffs where it's just like, all right,
we got some money to burn here. And that's not the case at D two. But I also don't think
you have to have a great experience. I don't think that's tied to a great experience. I
think you can give a great experience a lot of different ways. Going to NCAAs becoming
an All American. That's a great experience. In my in my opinion, I think that what I try
to convey to to some of our recruits of like, hey, you can come here, make an impact, go
to NCAAs, become an All American beyond relays, and leave a legacy that is going to live on
well after your graduation. Or you can, you know, go and make maybe be number 28 on the
roster and maybe not have a lot of contribution. But I call them t shirt collectors, you can
say, Hey, I'm on this swim team. Look at my shirt. Like, I mean, yeah, but how much how
much of that is actually contribution based. So that's my opinion on it. And I've been
at the highest end of D two at Queens, and I've been at some very high ends of D one.
And that's really kind of what I've boiled it down to, I think it goes down to the experience
that you're given. And, and again, I'm not saying one of those things is better than
the other. That's my personal preference. And I try to convey that to our recruits of
like, it's all about what you want out of your experience. So you got four years of
college swimming. So make the most of it. What do you want out of it? Do you want to
contribute? Do you want where do you want to be? Do you want to be towards the top towards
the bottom in the middle? Do you want to go to NCA? Do you want to extend your your swimming
past February? I think, again, nothing is right or wrong. It's all about what the individual
is looking for.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, and I think I've said it every episode, we always talk about
the D one tunnel vision. When when athletes and parents figure out how fast the top end
of D two and D three is, they're always shocked. They're always extremely shocked by that.
And and I'm sure you've encountered that recruiting to, you know, how do you get these kids out
of that D one mindset? Because for me, it's not about division one, division two, division
three, it's more about first off, every conference is pretty much his own world. And those conferences
really are the conference you go to, I think is, is more, more indicative of the world
you live in and swimming than than the division. But but it's about finding a place where you're
going to thrive and be happy. And I think, you know, getting getting the kids out of
that, it has to be D one, you need to be thinking about where you're going to, you know, where
you're going to thrive. And, you know, and I think that's, athletically, it's socially,
it's academically. You said leave a legacy that I can tell you, you work with Jeff Dugdale
for a while, it's he loves that phrase, leave me a legacy, because it's a really great,
you know, recruiting. It's a great way to recruit kids is to talk about that. And, and
I'm curious, do you have to have this D two versus D one conversation with the kids a
lot?
A lot. Yeah, a lot. And I think it's explaining to them kind of just what we talked about
just a few minutes ago, like, there's not a lot of differences. There really isn't. Like,
we provide scholarship, we, we provide all the gear we we do, we travel to meets, like,
we do all those things. And the swimming is very fast. Yes, of course, it's not as fast
as division one. But I mean, there's been a lot of D two guys that have transferred
to some really good D one schools. And so I think the top end is, is not that far off.
And yeah, those conversations happen a lot. And I think sometimes they work, sometimes
they don't, right? Some kids are just like, so set in their ways. And that's fine. That's
not like do what you want to do. That's perfect. Like you should enjoy your four years and
you need to be happy where you're at. Again, like nothing is right or wrong. It's all about
what you want. But I do think, you know, there needs to maybe be a little bit more thought
given to to D two because we there's a ton of great teams in division two. I'm so many.
And yeah, I just, you know, I hate for someone to pass that up a great opportunity just because
they just because of a label. Right? Yeah. I always love seeing this time of year going
through the rankings and seeing, you know, fastest relays across swimming. And it is
not what people think. It is not like you're going to see all the division one, two division
one teams, and then you're going to see the two division two and then division three.
You have division two teams creeping up into top 20 across all colleges. And and you have
division three swimmers that are, you know, in that in that same, you know, general performance
area as well. So I think that's I will always believe that is going to be continue to be
a shock to the athletes, especially those that are just starting that recruiting process.
Yeah. A lot of great coaches and indeed to D three and a junior college. There's there's
so many different paths for people. And yeah, there's there's a lot of good coaching out
there. Yes. And if you get the tunnel vision and you think that you have to go to a specific
conference or a specific division, you may miss out on the perfect place to be. Yeah.
And that and that is the reality of this sport. The best coaching staffs are spread across
all the divisions. And and that's hopefully one of the things that we help expose doing,
you know, this podcast is showing some of these incredible coaches that aren't in the
power for there are incredible coaches in power for don't get me wrong. But man, there's
so many good staffs out there. And you just got to you got to widen that net and find
them. Absolutely. OK, I want to I want to switch gears and talk about academics for
a second. So yeah, your women's team had the highest team GPA in all of division two for
the past four semesters. And then your men last semester, I believe, had the highest
across all division two. So that's really, really impressive, especially when you pair
that with the improvement that you're seeing in the water. Right. And a lot of athletes,
they don't think about how they're going to have to balance academics, athletics, social,
you know, all that huge change of life from living at home to living in college. And I
think that that some coaches do a really good job of helping them balance that. You know,
and others, maybe not so much. But what role do you play as a coach in helping keep your
athletes focused in the water and in the classroom and juggle all the things going on in life
their first time away from home? Yeah. Yeah. That was that was a cool thing. Like the first
it was our first semester here, fall of I think, 22. And, you know, we submit our stuff
to the CSCA and it comes out, number one, GPM. Oh, my gosh, like I was that wasn't a
thought in my mind. And that really changed. That really changed everything for our program.
All of a sudden, the recognition from our AD loved it, our president loved it, the community,
just getting like Kataba's name out there, because it wasn't really out there before.
That was like the catalyst of like, OK, we're we're going to do something here. And our
women loved it. And that was really cool. So then to be able to continue it, they know
the expectation, they know they know what the standard is. It's hard, hard to live on
the mountaintop, though. So they also know, like, hey, we want to continue to try to do
this. We also can't influence what other people do. And so we need to do the best that we
can every semester. But I mean, gosh, last last fall, a year ago, had a three point nine
three average, which is just like absolutely crazy. This past fall, this will come out
probably right when this podcast gets gets released to the public. We're hoping to make
it the fifth semester. They had a three point eight nine. So we're really hopeful. And I
think the men are in a really good spot as well. And yeah, I think it's it's just really
cool. One of the one of the things that we talk about, I always tell all of our freshmen,
all the resources that you need to be successful are here. And they're readily available and
accessible at your fingertips. The only thing that's going to prevent you from not being
successful is yourself. And so we have mandatory study hall, just like every team probably
does. We don't go crazy. It's four hours a week. I've been a part of some teams where
we've done eight hours and it's just I feel like they time gets wasted. It's first semester
freshman year. It's really not that tough. So, you know, we do four hours a week. It's
just to get them out of their room together in the library. Our our captains run that
and manage that whole thing. And, you know, it's just get in the library, open your book,
make sure you're on top of your work, just to try to set up some study habits. Some people
that might need to stay in that second semester. If not, we're good and they can get out. But,
you know, we have one of the benefits, I think, of having a smaller school, like you said,
around 1100, 1200 students is our small class sizes. So some of these schools are big power
for schools. You're sitting lecture halls, 300 people. I know for me, that would have
not been good. I would have not done well in college had I had that. And I think a lot
of people probably gravitate towards that, especially in today's world with, you know,
the Instagram, TikTok type attention spans. So you're sitting in a classroom, our biggest
class is probably like 30. And that's like a gen ed for a freshman. And then it's going
to get whittled down there. And you're going to sit in a class of, you know, 10 to 15,
as you kind of get more into your major, and you know, who your professor is, they know
you by name, they'll have you over to their house, they'll you have their cell phone number.
That's not happening at a lot of big schools. You're another number. They don't care if
you pass or fail, they're trying to just do what they need to do, do their job. Right.
And so I think that's a big benefit. They have professors here, obviously have office
hours, we encourage that. In our library, we have a reading and writing center, if you're,
you know, papers or things like that, you can go and get assistance. We have supplemental
instruction, kind of tutors. So it's a person that has taken the class, did a really good
job. And the professor has asked them to come back and like, basically be a tutor for the
class. So they sit in and then they they hold kind of their office hours and the evenings
in the library. And most of our team is our instructors for that, which is really good.
But yeah, I wouldn't really say that we do anything out of the ordinary. I think we have
really high expectations. We have very smart student athletes. And they just kind of know,
know what we want to want to accomplish that we know, like, we put that on our goal sheet.
That's that's a part of our goals. It's not just the swimming piece. It's it's the GPA.
It's the community service, both our men and women led the country and detune our community
service last year. We are trying to create, you know, a very well rounded individual that
can go into a med school interview or go sit in a job interview for for their career or
for a master's program and be able to differentiate themselves against everyone else and say,
hey, I was a part of a team that had the highest GPA. I was a part of the team that was the
most improved. I was an All-American. Like, those are things that are really going to
set you apart when you're looking at what's next for your life and your career after after
your undergrad. And I think we have done a great job of that so far.
You know, there are some high level programs that will discourage you from certain majors
because they're too taxing and you can't balance the two. Not a fan of that. I'm not I'm not
at all a fan of that. I love, you know, I love programs that can find that balance.
And you know, if you want to go into medical school, you want to go into dental school,
you know, pharmacy school, you know, you want to go get your MBA. If there are other athletes
that are on the team, kind of on that same track or that, you know, past athletes that
have this really good indication that, you know, you can strike that balance. But the
reason I was so impressed by that is just a lot of programs don't have that balance.
You know, it is. And my theory is that it will get worse with the changes in college
swimming in terms of the win now at all costs at the top end. And I do worry about that,
that balance because in the end, our sport isn't a sport where we have a ton of people
making seven figures a year. You know, endorsements are tough even for our highest athletes. And
so you really do need to take advantage of the opportunity of being in school, because
that is the best investment is getting that education. And if we start to see a more cutthroat
atmosphere where academics take a backseat, that might end up being detrimental to our
sport in the long run.
I think we're lucky because of the nature of our sport. It automatically teaches you
hard work, dedication, time management. And I think that's very transferable to a lot
of areas of life. You know, there's obviously some one off cases, but I really think there's
a pretty strong correlation between fast swimmers and smart swimmers. You know, they just they
go hand in hand. And the people that have their life in order, you know, the schoolwork,
their social life, you go into the locker room, you look at the lockers, like, you're
going to be able to see who's got their life in order. And that tends to translate pretty
well to their daily performance and practice. And so, you know, we as coaches, we have a
hand in that, and it's our responsibility to make sure that we're preparing them for
whatever it is that they're gonna do after this.
Swimmers, competitive swimmers make great employees. They really do. It is it is a hard
work, but those that that manage that time tend to do really well in their professional
careers. So that's why I think it's so important that the changes that college swimming and
NCAA that that that they're undergoing, you can't take amateur sports out of college,
you can't. It would be so bad because there's so many athletes in college right now that
their athletics is paving the way for their extreme success as an adult, you know, in
a workforce. And, and that that's the thing. I know we were such a new college football
playoffs was, you know, we just, you know, just wrapped up the championship game just
happened right. And there's all this excitement. There's all this money around it. But in the
end, you know, while the public is very football crazy, very basketball crazy in March, NCAA
athletes that there's a program here that produces 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of wonderful,
wonderfully trained professionals that go out and become doctors and dentists and pharmacists
and everything else. And that's why the sport cannot lose its primary mission, which is
to create, you know, those individuals that succeed. And that that's, that's the fear.
I think that's really the fear. Absolutely. Okay, so last question. So Kataba, you got
a lot of sports there, right? You got a football, you have basketball. So besides swimming,
what's your favorite sport? What do you like to go watch? Yeah. I would say as of recent,
this is the first year inaugural year of our men's volleyball team. And that has been really
fun. I'm I've sit right next door, my office is right next door to our men's volleyball
coach. He's incredible. He, he coached had USC Southern California. He was the national
coach of the year and D one for I think two or three years. He was coach on the junior
national team. He's he's really awesome. And he's kind of come and, and started this program.
And it's fun. I mean, I've never really watched men's volleyball. We have a women's volleyball
team and our team has really enjoyed going to watch them the three years I've been here.
But man, men's volleyball is like, it's crazy. They those guys are jumping out of the building.
And they just absolutely smack that ball. So that's been really cool. My me and my staff
went and watched the first home game the other night. That was really fun. Outside of that,
I think there's so many good sports. Our women's soccer has gone to the NCAA tournament multiple
times, our women's basketball team got third in the country. My first year here. So yeah,
I think there's there's a big kind of sports vibe on campus, a lot of athletes, you know,
of our of our total enrollment. And they go and support each other, which is fun. And
our kids love to go to other other games as well.
So we've done six episodes of this of this podcast. And that is the second time volleyball
has come up as the as really so good. It's fun. It's just it's very athletic. It's it
is a fun it is a fun sport to watch. It is a lot of thing I like watching like, all right,
how do we how do we jump like that? We got to do something in the weight room to get
get our verticals to match those guys. Yeah, yeah, that that start can be the difference
especially in the real age. All right. So yeah, Coach Gearing, thank you for coming
on. I really appreciate your time. I'm excited to see how you guys end up at conference championships
this year. You got a bigger team now really going to be watching that development. It's
it's really fun to watch you, you know, kick off your career with a lot of success.
Thank you, Jamie. I appreciate it. I love what you guys are doing. Products awesome.
This this podcast is great giving people a platform and yeah, appreciate it. Thank you.