1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,600 Welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight. I am Jamie Bailey and today's guest is a coach 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,740 whose stock is quickly rising in the world of college swimming. Coach Matthew Gearing 3 00:00:17,740 --> 00:00:22,720 is in his third season as the head coach at Catawba College. Last season he was named 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,520 the South Atlantic Conference Men's Coach of the Year after leading both his men's and 5 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,760 women's team to their best ever finish at conference championships. Most recently Catawba 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:39,680 was named the number one most improved Division II team for both men and women by SwimCloud. 7 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,480 Before taking over at Catawba, Coach Gearing worked as an assistant at several top tier 8 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:49,000 powerhouse programs including Florida State, Indiana, and Queens. Coach, it is great to 9 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,600 have you on today. Yeah, thanks, Jamie. I appreciate it. It's episode six for you guys 10 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,640 and first D2 coach, which is awesome and had a lot of a lot of really good guests so far. 11 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,520 So I'm excited to join the conversation. Oh yeah, this one's gonna be fun. Okay, so 12 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,400 so this is your first head coaching role, right? But you've had the chance to work with 13 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:13,020 some incredible coaches like, you know, David Marsh, Jeff Dugdale, Ray Luce, Neil Stud. 14 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:16,880 So you know, what are some of the biggest lessons you picked up from them that, you 15 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:23,520 know, kind of prepared you to take over the reins at Catawba? Yeah. All of them have, 16 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,960 have taught me a lot of different things and and they're all very different individuals, 17 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:32,420 different coaches, the way they go about things. And I think they all have success in their 18 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:37,240 own way, which is really cool. So that, that first and foremost, like, you know, I think 19 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,640 when you look at the sport of swimming, there's not one way to do it. There's a lot of different 20 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:48,660 ways to get to the same end result, which is really cool. You know, you mentioned David 21 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:54,160 Marsh and Jeff Dugdale, like those, those are the guys that that gave me the start. 22 00:01:54,160 --> 00:02:00,240 I had a weird entry into swimming where I didn't actually swim in college myself. I 23 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:06,280 ended up having three heart surgeries and two in high school. I'm sorry, one in high 24 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,080 school to my freshman year of college. And so swimming competitively for me was kind 25 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,400 of was done in high school, it just wasn't going to happen. And I felt like I wanted 26 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,560 to get into coaching. So reached out to Jeff at Queens and had just said, Hey, I think 27 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,480 I want to do this and work for free and come and, and do whatever you want me to do. And 28 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,640 of course, you know, someone emails me that I'm going to say, Absolutely, come on, let's 29 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:34,960 let's see what we can do here. And Jeff was awesome. I mean, from the beginning, just 30 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:42,600 owe so much to him. Incredible mentor. And, you know, really no better place at that time, 31 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:49,620 all of 2015 is when I started at Queens, no better place, I feel like in the country, 32 00:02:49,620 --> 00:02:55,780 because we also had some Mac team elite going on with with Coach Marsh. I got there and 33 00:02:55,780 --> 00:03:01,840 within a few months, he was named the head coach for the 2016 US team for the women. 34 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:07,840 And I just got to be a sponge. And I just hung out at practice, I was spending, I was 35 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,560 spending literally my entire day at the pool deck. If I was not in class, then I was I 36 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:21,200 was out on the pool deck there and just logged a lot of hours and watched and listened and 37 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,140 helped when I could and got more responsibilities as the years went on. I was at Queens for 38 00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:31,480 four years and worked with Coach Marsh for those four years as well. And yeah, it was 39 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:38,240 it was awesome. I think from David, you see like, what is what are the best athletes doing? 40 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:44,720 You know, at that time, we had Ryan Lochte, Tyler Clary, Kathleen Baker, Katie Miley, 41 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:50,840 Yosuke Irie, a Japanese backstroker came and joined us. We had a group of Israeli athletes 42 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,800 that were incredible. And yeah, it was just cool, like, the to see the creativity and 43 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:04,520 to see the just broadness of training for for one coach to have for a group of professionals 44 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:10,480 was like, really eye opening. Like, that was my entryway into coaching. So that was really 45 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:17,040 cool. And then on the college side with with Jeff and Queens, like, I mean, gosh, like, 46 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:22,040 my first year there, they had just come off winning their first national championship, 47 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,760 so that they had done it. Right. They guess I kind of missed the fun part, because it's 48 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:32,400 always harder to sustain it. Yeah. And we felt that. And I and I think from Jeff, it's 49 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,200 how do you build a championship team? How do you build a championship culture? And then 50 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:43,200 probably the piece that I got to see the most was like, how do you sustain that? It's easy. 51 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,480 Maybe not easy. It's easier to win one, right? You can win one and then you're gone. But 52 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:53,480 like, I was there for four years, and we won all four years, both men and women. So, you 53 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,600 know, eight national championships, and then they continue to do it once I left. So that 54 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:06,520 was really just like peak swimming, which was was awesome for my gateway into into 55 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,400 coaching. And then I went to Indiana and and had an awesome experience and got to spend 56 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:18,240 time with Ray and really great staff there. Corey Chitwood was there. Johnny Skinner, 57 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:24,760 John Long, who was actually at Queens with me. John's one of my best friends and got 58 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,480 to just learn a completely different style. I mean, there's there's a, I would say not 59 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:35,000 a lot of similarities between the two programs, which is cool. You know, it's like, hey, this 60 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:40,120 is something that I don't know anything about. And let's watch and this is a, you know, power 61 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:49,480 five. And that was a bit of a weird year because that finishing that year in March is when 62 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:55,940 COVID happened. And so we didn't get to go to NCA. I didn't get to do that. I didn't. 63 00:05:55,940 --> 00:06:00,160 We were preparing for trials. We had, you know, Lilly King and Cody Miller and Annie 64 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,400 Laser and Zach Apple, Blake Peroni, just like a huge group of pros there. So I kind of got 65 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,060 to continue with the pro side, which was really fun. But we didn't get to necessarily see 66 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:15,400 that out. And so that was like, okay, how do you, how do these people handle adversity? 67 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,880 You know, we had Lilly and Cody and a group of pros that were driving an hour and 15 minutes 68 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:28,840 one way to go swim a backyard pool as some lady that we found in Indianapolis, just to 69 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:32,520 keep it going because we didn't know what was happening, you know, on a global stage. 70 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:38,160 So that was, that was really cool. You know, Florida State was another one, just being 71 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:45,520 in the ACC, getting to from afar, watch, watch UVA, watch Todd, watch Gretchen, watch, watch 72 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,040 what they're doing and being in a program that got to regularly compete with the best 73 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,640 teams. That was, that was really cool. And then, you know, something that's not maybe 74 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:01,600 mentioned just because it's not a power five or four now. My time at, in Arkansas, at Little 75 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,320 Rock was like really transformational for me. That was my first time where I kind of 76 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:12,400 got to like do things on my own. And my head coach there, Amy Burgess, like absolutely 77 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:18,740 love her. She just entrusted me with the world and allowed me to kind of come in and do my 78 00:07:18,740 --> 00:07:24,080 thing and make changes. And she wanted me to challenge her. And I loved it there. Like 79 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,160 that, we, my wife and I look back on those, those years, that year, 14 months that we 80 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:35,240 were there, it was, it was a short stay, unfortunately, but very fondly. And, and that, you know, 81 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:40,360 I learned so much from, from my, my previous stops and I got, kind of got to use it all 82 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,320 at that point and felt like I kind of knew what I was doing. So that, that probably helped 83 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,880 me a lot, you know, more of the use the knowledge where, where the beginning was like, all right, 84 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,560 I'm gaining a lot of knowledge. And then I got to use it and, and get the confidence 85 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,320 of like, okay, I, I know what I'm doing. And I take things from everywhere with, with where 86 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:05,640 I'm at now at Kitaba. And that's been cool. I mean, I look back a lot at what we did on 87 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,000 some of those places and still talk to, to a lot of those coaches and get opinions and 88 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:16,360 advice and they're awesome to, to be able to provide some, some feedback to me and help 89 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,720 me if I'm, tell me I'm on the right track or maybe help me and figure out something 90 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:27,960 different that I might need to change. So, so last episode, coach Pree talked about how 91 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,880 he's still on his four year plan 38 seasons later, right? So, you know, do you have a 92 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,160 four year plan? Is it, is it going according to plan? Oh man. Yeah. I feel like all the 93 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:43,400 kids like, Hey, this is my junior year. You know, we're still, I think figuring things 94 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:49,400 out here. The, the first year is crazy. Like, you know, like you said, first time head coach, 95 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:58,080 I was 26 when I got hired, I think maybe 25. So I was, I was young, right? My, my wife 96 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,680 and I were newly married. We, we just had a son. We moved here and things were crazy. 97 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:10,360 I think I got here like a week before the student athletes in August and I had, you 98 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,920 know, the gear, the, had to make some meat schedule changes, had to just, what's a schedule 99 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:22,920 at a higher an assistant, just like so many things that you don't really have any sort 100 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,440 of previous knowledge on as an assistant coach. So that was like kind of just a whirlwind 101 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,200 the whole year. And last year, year two, like, all right, have, have some things settled 102 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,080 a little bit more and felt like we were, we're kind of moving in a good direction and this 103 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:44,920 year's like really taken off. And I think had you told me, had anyone told me where 104 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:50,960 we would be at two and a half years when I took the job, I, I don't think I would have 105 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,000 believed it. We, we've done some really incredible things that I'm really proud of. I'm proud 106 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:02,400 of our staff, proud of our student athletes. And I really don't think they thought that 107 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,920 that was possible either. I mean, we still have kids on our team, seniors right now that 108 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:12,200 were coached by the old staff and our junior class, you know, my, myself and my one assistant 109 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,520 has been with me the whole time. They've been our first year, but we didn't recruit them. 110 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,080 Right. So they came in kind of thinking one thing and they got something totally different. 111 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:28,040 So, yeah, I think, you know, four year plan, maybe hard to say, I definitely got a long 112 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,480 term kind of vision of what we're trying to do. And I think we're, we're ahead of, ahead 113 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,480 of schedule for that. 114 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Okay. So you talked about recruiting there for a second. So let's, let's dig in there. 115 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,640 So, all right. So you're in North Carolina, right? And North Carolina, it's, it's a huge 116 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,720 swimming hotspot. You, you have a ton of great clubs. You talked about swim back earlier. 117 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,120 You have tap titans, you have others. And there's also a lot of college programs in 118 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,120 the state. There's actually 26 colleges in the state that, of North Carolina that have 119 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:01,960 a swimming program, which is a lot. So you've grown your team down to about 20 men, 21 women 120 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:08,080 this year, but about half your roster is international. So was that by design or did, or did it just 121 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:14,000 kind of happen? And, and has finding athletes that fit in your system, the system that you've 122 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,480 learned over the years, has that been one of the bigger challenges in building your 123 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,480 program early on? 124 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:26,320 Yeah. Yeah. North Carolina is awesome for all of those reasons. You said the, the club 125 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,660 swimming, the recruiting piece of it's awesome. The number of colleges makes it really easy 126 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:37,480 to travel for dual meets. And then, yeah, I mean, you said you mentioned team size there, 127 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,240 you know, my first year when I got here, we had, we had 10 men on the roster. And I was 128 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:48,680 like, Oh, wow, that's a rough spot to start. And I wasn't recruiting anyone in August. 129 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:53,080 So we had 10 last year, year two, we had 15. And then this year we have 20. So that's been 130 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,480 a really nice kind of jump in progression on the women's side. We had 14 when I got 131 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:04,280 here, 19 last year, and now 21. So that's been been awesome. We've been lucky that we've 132 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,400 been a young team for the most part. We've, we haven't graduated a ton of people each 133 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:14,240 year, just kind of by the nature of what it was when we came in. And then yeah, we have 134 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,120 a ton of internationals. And that is by design, you know, one of my goals, and one of the 135 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,760 things I was, I talked to my AD, my AD about when I was coming here was, you know, we want 136 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,160 to have a team that looks like the world. We want to create an environment and an atmosphere 137 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:35,120 for people from all over to come and be a part of a program and have like minded individuals 138 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,680 that have similar goals to them and all work towards achieving those both, both team and 139 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:47,760 individual. We have 18 countries right now represented on our team, including the US, 140 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:55,240 right? So 17 international. And that is absolutely incredible. It is fun on a daily basis. I think 141 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:03,120 it provides a lot of opportunities for our athletes. This past summer, we had, we have 142 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:10,880 a guy that lives in Romania. And we have a guy from Atlanta, Georgia, from Boston, Massachusetts 143 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,160 and Poland. They the three of them went to Romania and spent three weeks there with with 144 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:22,560 our other guy. And, you know, you're not getting that opportunity at a lot of places or from 145 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:28,040 a lot of other kind of outlets other than, you know, college swimming with with international 146 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,400 athletes. So we have people go to Germany and spend time with our athletes over the 147 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:39,200 summer in Spain, and they have fun with it. And I think that's awesome. You know, your 148 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,040 question of is it has it been hard finding people that maybe fit into what we're doing 149 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:50,120 here? I don't think so. So far, it hasn't been. And I think part of that reason is because 150 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:57,400 I wouldn't say that we necessarily have a set in stone type of program. I feel that 151 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,000 what we do really well is we try to fit the program around the athlete, not necessarily 152 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,800 the athlete for the program. You know, it's not a one size fits all type model. Jeff Dugdale 153 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,840 is great at quoting it's one size fits one, right? Everybody's going to be different. 154 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:19,440 We treat everybody the same by treating them equal. And so, you know, we're going to do 155 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:26,800 things that are different for each person. The schedules that we have are pretty crazy 156 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:33,080 that the movement that we do throughout a week for an athlete is pretty different. And 157 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:38,720 everybody's everybody's different than that. You know, we do have kind of the typical sprint 158 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:46,320 mid D distance type of groups, but we have a few people that see all groups throughout 159 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:53,360 the week. And we have a lot of people who bounce back and forth. And it's maybe it's 160 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,520 just we just get creative with it really and try to make sure that we're fitting what needs 161 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,200 to be done for that specific athlete. And so I think that's been really helpful for 162 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:10,360 us. And I also think we adapt and change a lot as we as we learn things about our athletes, 163 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,480 you know, freshman year, we're really just trying to figure out the person we we have 164 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,560 our preconceived notions of, hey, we think this is going to work. And we go through the 165 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:25,520 year and, and I would say we're pretty spot on about 95% of the time and that other 5%. 166 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,880 All right, we were a little off here and we need to make some adjustments. And the great 167 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,960 thing is we make those adjustments and then your two tends to be a little bit better for 168 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:38,080 that person. So we're not afraid to do that. We're not afraid to move people around. Because 169 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,120 at the end of the day, we want to do what's best for them. 170 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:46,680 Yeah, so you talked about individualization and being able to, I really like that quote, 171 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,480 fit the program around the athlete. Yeah. So when you look at top, it's a smaller school, 172 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,120 you have about 1100 students enrolled. But what I was really surprised about was you 173 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,120 actually have two assistant coaches. And that's more than than most programs can say, you 174 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,440 know, it's you don't see a lot of programs that have, you know, large staffs these days, 175 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:12,720 you have about a 40 swimmer team, three coaches, that's actually a really good ratio for giving 176 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,800 those athletes individual attention, which is something that with the athletes that we 177 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,480 work with, that's one of the things that we talk about, you know, is, you know, if you 178 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,640 have a team that's got 90, 90 swimmers, and they have two coaches, that's, that's, that's 179 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:31,960 a tough ratio, right. But you know, the kind of support where you get two assistant coaches 180 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,800 that usually points to having a pretty strong backing from your athletic department, your 181 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:42,080 administration. So what can you tell me about the vision for Katawa swimming between you 182 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:49,600 and your athletic director? Yeah, I mean, my AD Michelle Katigan is awesome. I mean, 183 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,080 took a took a chance on a 2025 26 year old to kind of come in. And, you know, we talked 184 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:01,800 a lot about what I wanted to do. You know, at that time, it was probably like, okay, 185 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,520 we'll see if this happens or not. And if it does, that's great. And if it doesn't, like, 186 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,720 you know, it is what it is. And it has and I think we've done more than like I said, 187 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,160 what I expected in this timeframe. And I think what a lot of people probably expected as 188 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,460 well. But we have a ton of support and having two assistant coaches, that's a new thing 189 00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:25,760 for us this year. We were able to get another position this past summer. And that's been 190 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,760 an incredible addition to to our program. It's made it easier on me, which I've really 191 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,600 appreciated. It's made it easier on my other assistant coach, right, we can just delegate 192 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,000 a little bit more, we can, we can split up the work a little bit more. It's important 193 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,200 for me that we all get our rest and that we, you know, aren't just running ourselves ragged 194 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,000 the entire year. You know, I have a family have a wife and a son, and that's important 195 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,400 to me. So making sure I can do what I need to do in my family obligations and, and have 196 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,680 the trust that they're gonna do what needs to be done and the way that it needs to be 197 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:07,800 done. That's that's been really big. And it's been great. You know, I think the vision for 198 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:18,160 the program is really, is really strong. And I think we have a definitely a multiple multi 199 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,960 year plan here, you know, our first year, our men got fourth conference last year, we 200 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,840 got second. And so, you know, our goal for sure, on the on the men's side is to win. 201 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,600 We want to win our conference championship, that is 100% our goal. On the women's side, 202 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,320 we got third our first year, which was awesome, we should have gotten fourth. And then we 203 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,880 got got third last year. And that was a very different type of third. I think we cut, I'd 204 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,680 have to go back and look, but we cut down like over 600 points from that second place 205 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,320 and we got really close. And that was our goal. Like our goal, we set out the year of 206 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,720 like, hey, we're gonna get close here, because we knew what what we did the year before. 207 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,440 And so yeah, I think the goal for them as well is to win. And I think both teams are 208 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:07,840 really probably on a similar timeline of achieving that goal. So that's really fun. And that's 209 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,000 really exciting. And I think you said it earlier, both our men's and our women's were the most 210 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:19,040 improved team and in division two in 2024. And I think that's great, because it's both. 211 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,360 It's not one or the other. It's not Oh, my gosh, Kataba has an awesome men's team or 212 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,000 an awesome women's team. Like, no, both of our teams are really good. Which is really 213 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,760 fun. It's you don't maybe see that everywhere. I think, you know, sometimes there's there's 214 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:37,480 one better than the other. Yeah, that that's kind of more short term of what we want to 215 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,000 accomplish. And then long term, it's it's getting people continually and consistently 216 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:49,680 qualified to the NCAA national championship. Our first year, we qualified a woman, which 217 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,440 hadn't happened since 2001. So that had been 22 years, we did it in year one. And she went 218 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:01,200 on and became an All American as a freshman, score points and got Kataba up on the board, 219 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,480 which was really exciting. Last year, we had three women qualify. So that was like, Oh, 220 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,080 my gosh, this is great. We're we got some people here. And we had a guy. That was the 221 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:16,160 first time for a guy since 2017. And he was he was incredible. Conference summer of the 222 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,680 year as a freshman for us. All American seventh in the 100 breaststroke 16th in the 200 freestyle. 223 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,640 He did he did wonderful things there and getting us on the map on the men's side. And so yeah, 224 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,100 that's that's the goal. We want to continue doing that. We'll see what this year brings. 225 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:35,760 We feel pretty good with with some of the people that we have in position right now. 226 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:42,080 We have a men's relay qualified automatically. That hasn't happened since 2017. So yeah, 227 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,720 we're in a good spot. But but we know that there's more there's no we know that there's 228 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:51,640 more that we want to do. So getting people qualified, and then really looking and saying, 229 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,600 hey, what does it take to get top 15? What does it take to get top 10? What does it take 230 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:01,640 to get top five? How do you contend for a national championship? Right? What does that 231 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:08,400 look like? And and I think my my experience of my time with with Jeff and Queens has prepared 232 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,960 me for that. And, you know, those are things that we're striving for. So we have some big 233 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,960 goals. You know, we'll see how long some of those things take us to accomplish. But I 234 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,400 think, like I said, we're we're on a really good, good path. And we have a ton of support 235 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,560 from from our administration, from our whole entire campus and and and from the institution 236 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:30,560 as a whole. 237 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:36,960 Yes, you talked about growing your roster from 10, you know, up to over 20. Right. So, 238 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,080 you're going to conference championships, you can take probably 1718 summers, right, 239 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,560 that can score points. And I think I think it's really interesting when we talk about 240 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:52,160 roster sizes, the strategy around that, right, because if you have a roster of 40, so you 241 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,240 know, look at what Ray Lewis has done at Indiana historically had a larger roster size, which 242 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,680 has allowed him kind of the freedom to do a lot of development. You know, you're going 243 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,120 to take your top 17, but you've got these athletes that you're building up, they're 244 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,240 going to contribute in big ways or junior and senior year. Whereas now with there's 245 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:17,360 so much talk about roster size restrictions with all the changes coming, you know, a smaller 246 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:22,560 roster, you don't have a lot of room for error. Right. So with with 20 men, 20 women, you 247 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:28,080 know, you you're going to take 17, you don't have a ton of room for error if you're trying 248 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,880 to win conference championships. And then if you're trying to develop a team that's 249 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:39,720 going to compete at NCAA as well. So what's kind of your your theoretical sweet spot? 250 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,080 What's the size team? If you if you had all the resources in the world, what what is your 251 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,880 sweet spot for roster size on your men's and women's team? Gosh, if I had every all the 252 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,760 resources, oh, man, it's honestly probably not too different than what it would look 253 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,800 like if I didn't have those resources. Really, I mean, I think 25 on each side is is what 254 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,440 we're shooting for. And I think I think that's a good size. You know, so we get to take 18. 255 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,200 We get to take 18 to our conference meet. One of the one of the really good things, 256 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,400 and I'll say this is awesome about our conference, we get to take everyone to our conference 257 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,320 meet. But we have to designate our scoring 18. And then the remainders are exhibition 258 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,960 athletes, but they still get a swim in prelims. So they get to go, they get to be a part of 259 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,760 it, they get a they get to go through the taper and the rest. And we want them to swim 260 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,560 fast and go best times and prelims and do all those things. And I think that's nice, because 261 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,760 I've not every conference does that. And at the end of the day, we're trying to provide 262 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,960 a good experience for our athletes, right. And I get it, like there's lines and you got 263 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,120 to swimming is pretty black and white, right, you're either going to score the points and 264 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:47,040 or you're not. But I still think hey, we can give this experience to those those people. 265 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,520 And so I really like that about our conference. But yeah, I think 25 on both sides is a really 266 00:23:52,520 --> 00:24:00,200 good number. I think it's not too big. It's not too small. You get to know everybody. 267 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,840 And you know, it doesn't get just out of control. Because, you know, I've seen it, I've seen 268 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,240 where there's teams of 90, like you said, and maybe you have a ton of assistant coaches, 269 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:17,800 that's fine. But I mean, it's just it's a lot. It's a lot to manage. And I think I think 270 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,440 in what we do, probably in everything, I think quality is better than quantity. And and that's 271 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,000 kind of the motto that we live by with our staff and a training sense. And I think it's 272 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,600 no different probably on a recruiting sense and retention and roster size. 273 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:38,640 We had we had coach John Howe on earlier. And he talked about he has a large team, have 274 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,960 about 40 men and 40 women. And and he talked about, you know, he's probably going to, you 275 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,520 know, whittle that down to 26, 27, 28. I think that that he said that's kind of his favorite 276 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:56,560 spot to be as well. So it does feel like that 25 to 30 is a really good spot. When we're 277 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,340 working with the student athletes, and they're they're talking about different colleges they 278 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:04,840 want to go to. They often don't think about roster size and the implications there. Right. 279 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:11,240 So if you're going to a team that's got 18 swimmers, and you can take 18 to conference, 280 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,440 yeah, you're going to need to contribute from day one, right. So there can be a little bit 281 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,600 more pressure there. If you go to a team of 40, 17 are going to go to conference. So that 282 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:27,280 means 23 aren't or 22, depending on 17, 18. Right. And so that can that can be its own 283 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,280 stress. So I really I like I love those teams that kind of balance that kind of in that 284 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,480 25 to 30 range. But, you know, it also depends on where you're swimming. I think we've talked 285 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,960 about it multiple episodes, we've talked about what the power force will do with their roster 286 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,320 restrictions. There's there's a philosophy around that development at that highest level 287 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,440 of being able to have the larger teams and have that room for development. And I think 288 00:25:53,440 --> 00:26:00,320 it could be restrictive. If they are forced to go down as low as 22. I don't know if they'll 289 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:08,520 really go as low as 22, maybe. But that that that that will make it that'll make it difficult. 290 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,120 And I think one thing that the that the athletes don't think about is the pressure of being 291 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:19,920 on a team where there's just 22 athletes and there is a win at all costs mentality. And 292 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:26,680 that's a different pressure than I think you're putting on your kids right now. And and I 293 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,680 don't know that some of the athletes are ready for that. Yeah, I don't know. Some of my kids 294 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,840 might disagree with you. I'm a I'm a competitive guy. And I got a competitive staff, which 295 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:44,960 is is is helpful when we all get together. Yeah, I think, you know, the development verse 296 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:51,520 when now transfer portal type deal. It's a tough one. You know, we've utilized the transfer 297 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,720 portal over the past two years and our recruiting cycle. We're probably going to utilize it 298 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:04,320 again. And it's worked out for us. It's really done done really good things for us. I don't 299 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:10,840 think it's the way to live and die by. I think it can win you championships. And I think 300 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,840 we've seen that in swimming. I think we've seen that. I mean, you know, I'd love to win 301 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,880 a championship next year. So, you know, if that's a path and like, hey, maybe that's 302 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:29,440 that's something to consider. But I also think it's really nice to have someone for four 303 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:35,520 years. And it's really nice to be able to get to know them and watch them grow and develop. 304 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:43,120 And you can do a little bit more with them. And so that piece of I don't think that piece 305 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,040 is going to go away. I don't even think it's going to go away a power power for us. I think 306 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,160 it changes. And I think it looks a little bit different. And you know, you had coach 307 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,800 Doran caught on. And they're talking about the club system with college. I think that 308 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,800 I think that's going to happen. You know, I think kids are going to kids are going to 309 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,760 want to be at Ohio State because it's Ohio State. Right. Even if it's the club team and 310 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,680 they're going to work their way up. Some of them for sure are going to do that. You have 311 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:15,800 a ton of examples of late bloomers who weren't great, weren't going to an awesome school. 312 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,640 One of these schools that everyone thinks of at a high school and then they just something 313 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:27,720 happens and they're incredible. And you know, I think my easy example is Zach Apple because 314 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,480 he's one of my best friends. You know, Zach wasn't one of the top recruits coming out 315 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:40,600 of high school. He developed a lot and he got really good his senior year and then some 316 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,000 things with his recruiting process changed with the school he was committed to and then 317 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,680 ended up going to Auburn. And like that was an awesome thing for him and then and transferred 318 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,440 to Indiana and continued there and made the Olympic team. You know, so it's not always 319 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,480 like, Hey, these these top 10 kids on on swim cloud are going to going to be the best for 320 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,120 the next eight, 10 years. There's a lot of development in our sport. And I think that's 321 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:09,060 that's a big piece that, you know, coaches are going to have to really keep at the forefront 322 00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:14,320 of their minds and make sure that they're doing the best thing, you know, whatever the 323 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,560 best thing they think is for the program. Yeah, yeah. So so you know this right in college 324 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,520 swimming, there's there's there's different ways to win. You can win because you recruit 325 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,920 better than everyone else. You can win because you develop better than everyone else or some 326 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,880 combination of the two. We talked to Doroncott pointing out to Coach Doroncott, you know, 327 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,320 you don't you don't have the best recruits in the Big Ten, but you win the Big Ten. 328 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,360 Right. And that's that's really impressive. And it's the same with Coach Dugdale at Queens, 329 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,000 you know, just phenomenal development. I listened to Bob Bowman speak recently, and he talked 330 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:55,040 about how the roster size restrictions, especially at the power four level, were really going 331 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,760 to restrict their ability to be patient with development. And he talked about, you know, 332 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,760 those diamonds in the rough are going to be really difficult for us to go find in development. 333 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,920 It was it was putting a tremendous amount of pressure to win now. And that kind of goes 334 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,080 back to the you know, if the SEC really does go to 22 men, right, there really isn't a 335 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:24,520 lot of room for error. And it's highly competitive. We see this in football and basketball now. 336 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:29,080 Once transfer rules change to where you don't have to sit out a year, you know, you almost 337 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,800 have a free agency, you throw NIL money in there. And now all of a sudden, we're starting 338 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:39,800 to get, you know, these athletes are flipping schools to go wherever they you know, whoever, 339 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,240 I guess has the money who needs it now. And so that you mentioned the portal. So yeah, 340 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,560 the transfer portal is more active. Coach Brene talked about in the last episode how, 341 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,560 you know, there are instances where swimmers are actually going to the highest bidders. 342 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,720 I think that's that is absolutely more at the very top end. But, you know, I think there 343 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,440 is some surprising amount of NIL money that gets thrown around even even in swimming. 344 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,080 But yeah, my question is, how far down do you think this is going to go in college swimming 345 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:15,920 where you have this this win now at all costs transfer portal mentality? Do you think that 346 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,360 it's going to stay more at that power for level, you know, even high end power for or 347 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:27,000 do you think that transfer portal mentality that that's going to come down into the, you 348 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,560 know, mid majors and then the high end of D two and D three, you've used the portal, 349 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,760 right? So is that do you think this is a trend? Are we trending more toward that now? Yeah, 350 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:43,320 I think we are. And I don't think there's any any way around it. Very honestly. Yeah, 351 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,320 I mean, you're definitely going to see that the power for level and I do think it's going 352 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,520 to trickle down. And the tough part is for these kids that are in high school right now, 353 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,320 like, you know, if I'm out of power for I'm probably waiting to take a kid out of the 354 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,880 transfer portal versus taking a freshman that I have to develop, who's maybe not going to 355 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,520 score points at NCAAs for two years, you know, I think it's having the honest conversation 356 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,040 with your administration, understanding what the goals are. Okay, like, we have these roster 357 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,520 limits, we have have these things we have to do now. What what do you want from us? 358 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,040 Because some ideas, you know, it is like, hey, you have to win right now. I don't think 359 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,160 we're as cutthroat as football and basketball. Which is good. All right, we don't want to 360 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:34,160 be that. But I do think there is a pretty high priority on on being successful. Sooner 361 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:41,600 rather than later. You know, talk about NLI money and everything. NIL, sorry, those get 362 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:48,240 this confused. There's no NLI anymore. And NIL money. I was one of the what was it the 363 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,360 Miami University men's basketball coach, I was watching that thing on him. And he was 364 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,880 you've seen that, right? He was, you know, they just went went on really far in the tournament, 365 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,680 they're excited, they're celebrating kids are in an portal. And it's like, don't you 366 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,840 like it here? Because like, oh, I love it here. But I'm gonna go see what I can get 367 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:10,340 somewhere else. That's crazy to me. And I don't I don't think something's going to turn 368 00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:17,600 to that. I hope it doesn't. But I do think, like you said, like, there's some money getting 369 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:23,040 thrown around. I don't know how much of it really, I don't think D2 is seeing a lot of 370 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,880 it. I don't think we will. But I think what we probably compete with the most is those 371 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,520 mid major D1s who maybe have a little bit or they have the Alston money, you know, the 372 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:40,160 random $6,000 that you can just offer to anyone and for having good grades, it's like, what 373 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,640 the heck? So that's that's pretty crazy. And I think one of the big differences for us, 374 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:52,880 especially on the women's side is those those scholarship numbers, right? Who knows if what 375 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,360 it's gonna is it gonna be a lot of schools gonna go to 30? I don't know. Bob already 376 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,600 said that's happening at Texas. So I think everyone kind of guessed that. But the 14 377 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,000 is the number before right. And I don't think people I hope for for their programs that 378 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,920 they don't drop below that number. But let's say someone stays at 14 at a mid major school, 379 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:18,200 the max for for D2 if you're lucky to have the max is is nine point, I'm sorry, is 8.1 380 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:26,880 9.9 is D1 men, 8.1. So you know, we're, if you're lucky operating at 8.1 versus 14 for 381 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,480 for a mid major on the women's side. And I mean, yeah, we have we have people that have 382 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:41,160 been offered full scholarships plus, like $5,000 in their pocket. And that's like, what, 383 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:47,320 like that? That's crazy to me. And they're, of course, they're taking it. And so I think 384 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,400 that's probably a big challenge that we have to face. And I don't think that part's gonna 385 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,540 get any easier. Now, what does that look like with with the transfer portal, maybe those 386 00:34:57,540 --> 00:35:02,240 some of those spots get taken and, and things like that. So it's a lot of moving parts. 387 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:07,160 And I don't think anyone has a really clear understanding of what's going to happen. I 388 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:12,160 mean, one of the things I was talking with my staff about, like, because we've talked 389 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:18,120 about it, like, hey, should we save some money for the portal this year? I mean, we kind 390 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:26,080 of want to, but we could be sitting here a year from now and be in the very same situation. 391 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,400 Because these roster limits, these cuts, from my understanding, I could be wrong on this. 392 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,680 But from my understanding, none of that's going to be official until there's like a 393 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:40,400 the judge makes the ruling. And I think that's coming in April. But I mean, April, that's 394 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,240 pretty late. So you know, I just think that there's so much up in the air, how many of 395 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:50,200 those kids are when I'm gonna are going to want to stay on the club teams at their at 396 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:58,000 their power for institution? Yeah, I don't know if, like I said, you know, just living 397 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,320 and standing alone on the portal is the right way to go. Because I think I think some people 398 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:12,440 will probably left out high and dry there. Yeah, do you think that? You know, yes, there's 399 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,840 lots of challenges to to the final ruling. There's nuances, there's things coming out 400 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,280 at the highest political levels about this. How do you think this is going to shake out 401 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,400 for division two swimming? Specifically, do you think these changes are going to have 402 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,520 a great effect on D two, just like they are in D one? Or do you think D two is going to 403 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,360 stay generally kind of like it has been the last few years? I think it's going to have 404 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:43,360 a positive effect on D two, I really do. Because there's going to be the kids who want to make 405 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,600 an impact, want to go to insta ways want to be a part of actual varsity team, not a club 406 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:55,080 team. So I do think it'll have a positive impact. And what I think is going to happen 407 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,720 is, is I think people are going to find out that it's not all that different from D one. 408 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:03,940 It really isn't other than the size of the school, right? And maybe some of the resources 409 00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:08,160 like, hey, you're not going to get 50 t shirts throughout the year. Sorry. You know, it's 410 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,960 like we don't. I've been a part of some of those staffs where it's just like, all right, 411 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,000 we got some money to burn here. And that's not the case at D two. But I also don't think 412 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,880 you have to have a great experience. I don't think that's tied to a great experience. I 413 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,800 think you can give a great experience a lot of different ways. Going to NCAAs becoming 414 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,700 an All American. That's a great experience. In my in my opinion, I think that what I try 415 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:36,800 to convey to to some of our recruits of like, hey, you can come here, make an impact, go 416 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:43,840 to NCAAs, become an All American beyond relays, and leave a legacy that is going to live on 417 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:50,760 well after your graduation. Or you can, you know, go and make maybe be number 28 on the 418 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,680 roster and maybe not have a lot of contribution. But I call them t shirt collectors, you can 419 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:02,200 say, Hey, I'm on this swim team. Look at my shirt. Like, I mean, yeah, but how much how 420 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,840 much of that is actually contribution based. So that's my opinion on it. And I've been 421 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,680 at the highest end of D two at Queens, and I've been at some very high ends of D one. 422 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:19,520 And that's really kind of what I've boiled it down to, I think it goes down to the experience 423 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,160 that you're given. And, and again, I'm not saying one of those things is better than 424 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,000 the other. That's my personal preference. And I try to convey that to our recruits of 425 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,680 like, it's all about what you want out of your experience. So you got four years of 426 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:37,040 college swimming. So make the most of it. What do you want out of it? Do you want to 427 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,320 contribute? Do you want where do you want to be? Do you want to be towards the top towards 428 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:47,040 the bottom in the middle? Do you want to go to NCA? Do you want to extend your your swimming 429 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,560 past February? I think, again, nothing is right or wrong. It's all about what the individual 430 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:54,560 is looking for. 431 00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:00,240 Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, and I think I've said it every episode, we always talk about 432 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:07,040 the D one tunnel vision. When when athletes and parents figure out how fast the top end 433 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:13,280 of D two and D three is, they're always shocked. They're always extremely shocked by that. 434 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,540 And and I'm sure you've encountered that recruiting to, you know, how do you get these kids out 435 00:39:18,540 --> 00:39:23,520 of that D one mindset? Because for me, it's not about division one, division two, division 436 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,300 three, it's more about first off, every conference is pretty much his own world. And those conferences 437 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:36,080 really are the conference you go to, I think is, is more, more indicative of the world 438 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,320 you live in and swimming than than the division. But but it's about finding a place where you're 439 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,760 going to thrive and be happy. And I think, you know, getting getting the kids out of 440 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,560 that, it has to be D one, you need to be thinking about where you're going to, you know, where 441 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:56,840 you're going to thrive. And, you know, and I think that's, athletically, it's socially, 442 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,880 it's academically. You said leave a legacy that I can tell you, you work with Jeff Dugdale 443 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,000 for a while, it's he loves that phrase, leave me a legacy, because it's a really great, 444 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,600 you know, recruiting. It's a great way to recruit kids is to talk about that. And, and 445 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:20,800 I'm curious, do you have to have this D two versus D one conversation with the kids a 446 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:21,800 lot? 447 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,520 A lot. Yeah, a lot. And I think it's explaining to them kind of just what we talked about 448 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,240 just a few minutes ago, like, there's not a lot of differences. There really isn't. Like, 449 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:36,320 we provide scholarship, we, we provide all the gear we we do, we travel to meets, like, 450 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,720 we do all those things. And the swimming is very fast. Yes, of course, it's not as fast 451 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:46,840 as division one. But I mean, there's been a lot of D two guys that have transferred 452 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:53,920 to some really good D one schools. And so I think the top end is, is not that far off. 453 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,440 And yeah, those conversations happen a lot. And I think sometimes they work, sometimes 454 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,120 they don't, right? Some kids are just like, so set in their ways. And that's fine. That's 455 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,200 not like do what you want to do. That's perfect. Like you should enjoy your four years and 456 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,800 you need to be happy where you're at. Again, like nothing is right or wrong. It's all about 457 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,860 what you want. But I do think, you know, there needs to maybe be a little bit more thought 458 00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:21,400 given to to D two because we there's a ton of great teams in division two. I'm so many. 459 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:28,120 And yeah, I just, you know, I hate for someone to pass that up a great opportunity just because 460 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:34,440 they just because of a label. Right? Yeah. I always love seeing this time of year going 461 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:41,000 through the rankings and seeing, you know, fastest relays across swimming. And it is 462 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,520 not what people think. It is not like you're going to see all the division one, two division 463 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,760 one teams, and then you're going to see the two division two and then division three. 464 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:56,640 You have division two teams creeping up into top 20 across all colleges. And and you have 465 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,280 division three swimmers that are, you know, in that in that same, you know, general performance 466 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:08,200 area as well. So I think that's I will always believe that is going to be continue to be 467 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,040 a shock to the athletes, especially those that are just starting that recruiting process. 468 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:17,000 Yeah. A lot of great coaches and indeed to D three and a junior college. There's there's 469 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,080 so many different paths for people. And yeah, there's there's a lot of good coaching out 470 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:27,720 there. Yes. And if you get the tunnel vision and you think that you have to go to a specific 471 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:32,960 conference or a specific division, you may miss out on the perfect place to be. Yeah. 472 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,640 And that and that is the reality of this sport. The best coaching staffs are spread across 473 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,840 all the divisions. And and that's hopefully one of the things that we help expose doing, 474 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,400 you know, this podcast is showing some of these incredible coaches that aren't in the 475 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,360 power for there are incredible coaches in power for don't get me wrong. But man, there's 476 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,440 so many good staffs out there. And you just got to you got to widen that net and find 477 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,000 them. Absolutely. OK, I want to I want to switch gears and talk about academics for 478 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:08,680 a second. So yeah, your women's team had the highest team GPA in all of division two for 479 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,360 the past four semesters. And then your men last semester, I believe, had the highest 480 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,840 across all division two. So that's really, really impressive, especially when you pair 481 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,520 that with the improvement that you're seeing in the water. Right. And a lot of athletes, 482 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:31,840 they don't think about how they're going to have to balance academics, athletics, social, 483 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,120 you know, all that huge change of life from living at home to living in college. And I 484 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:41,400 think that that some coaches do a really good job of helping them balance that. You know, 485 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:47,520 and others, maybe not so much. But what role do you play as a coach in helping keep your 486 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:54,520 athletes focused in the water and in the classroom and juggle all the things going on in life 487 00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:00,640 their first time away from home? Yeah. Yeah. That was that was a cool thing. Like the first 488 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:06,920 it was our first semester here, fall of I think, 22. And, you know, we submit our stuff 489 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:12,040 to the CSCA and it comes out, number one, GPM. Oh, my gosh, like I was that wasn't a 490 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:18,880 thought in my mind. And that really changed. That really changed everything for our program. 491 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:25,400 All of a sudden, the recognition from our AD loved it, our president loved it, the community, 492 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,320 just getting like Kataba's name out there, because it wasn't really out there before. 493 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,680 That was like the catalyst of like, OK, we're we're going to do something here. And our 494 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,720 women loved it. And that was really cool. So then to be able to continue it, they know 495 00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:46,400 the expectation, they know they know what the standard is. It's hard, hard to live on 496 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,960 the mountaintop, though. So they also know, like, hey, we want to continue to try to do 497 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,280 this. We also can't influence what other people do. And so we need to do the best that we 498 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:03,320 can every semester. But I mean, gosh, last last fall, a year ago, had a three point nine 499 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:10,720 three average, which is just like absolutely crazy. This past fall, this will come out 500 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,640 probably right when this podcast gets gets released to the public. We're hoping to make 501 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,240 it the fifth semester. They had a three point eight nine. So we're really hopeful. And I 502 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:23,520 think the men are in a really good spot as well. And yeah, I think it's it's just really 503 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:30,040 cool. One of the one of the things that we talk about, I always tell all of our freshmen, 504 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:37,160 all the resources that you need to be successful are here. And they're readily available and 505 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,480 accessible at your fingertips. The only thing that's going to prevent you from not being 506 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:47,400 successful is yourself. And so we have mandatory study hall, just like every team probably 507 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,280 does. We don't go crazy. It's four hours a week. I've been a part of some teams where 508 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,760 we've done eight hours and it's just I feel like they time gets wasted. It's first semester 509 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,880 freshman year. It's really not that tough. So, you know, we do four hours a week. It's 510 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,720 just to get them out of their room together in the library. Our our captains run that 511 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:13,320 and manage that whole thing. And, you know, it's just get in the library, open your book, 512 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:18,560 make sure you're on top of your work, just to try to set up some study habits. Some people 513 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:24,160 that might need to stay in that second semester. If not, we're good and they can get out. But, 514 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:29,120 you know, we have one of the benefits, I think, of having a smaller school, like you said, 515 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:35,560 around 1100, 1200 students is our small class sizes. So some of these schools are big power 516 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:41,240 for schools. You're sitting lecture halls, 300 people. I know for me, that would have 517 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:45,640 not been good. I would have not done well in college had I had that. And I think a lot 518 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,640 of people probably gravitate towards that, especially in today's world with, you know, 519 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,840 the Instagram, TikTok type attention spans. So you're sitting in a classroom, our biggest 520 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,120 class is probably like 30. And that's like a gen ed for a freshman. And then it's going 521 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,000 to get whittled down there. And you're going to sit in a class of, you know, 10 to 15, 522 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,680 as you kind of get more into your major, and you know, who your professor is, they know 523 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,040 you by name, they'll have you over to their house, they'll you have their cell phone number. 524 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,160 That's not happening at a lot of big schools. You're another number. They don't care if 525 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,520 you pass or fail, they're trying to just do what they need to do, do their job. Right. 526 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,600 And so I think that's a big benefit. They have professors here, obviously have office 527 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,720 hours, we encourage that. In our library, we have a reading and writing center, if you're, 528 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:36,440 you know, papers or things like that, you can go and get assistance. We have supplemental 529 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:43,800 instruction, kind of tutors. So it's a person that has taken the class, did a really good 530 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,080 job. And the professor has asked them to come back and like, basically be a tutor for the 531 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,120 class. So they sit in and then they they hold kind of their office hours and the evenings 532 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:58,880 in the library. And most of our team is our instructors for that, which is really good. 533 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:05,280 But yeah, I wouldn't really say that we do anything out of the ordinary. I think we have 534 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:12,680 really high expectations. We have very smart student athletes. And they just kind of know, 535 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:17,160 know what we want to want to accomplish that we know, like, we put that on our goal sheet. 536 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,760 That's that's a part of our goals. It's not just the swimming piece. It's it's the GPA. 537 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,760 It's the community service, both our men and women led the country and detune our community 538 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:32,800 service last year. We are trying to create, you know, a very well rounded individual that 539 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:41,200 can go into a med school interview or go sit in a job interview for for their career or 540 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:47,320 for a master's program and be able to differentiate themselves against everyone else and say, 541 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,800 hey, I was a part of a team that had the highest GPA. I was a part of the team that was the 542 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:58,000 most improved. I was an All-American. Like, those are things that are really going to 543 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:04,520 set you apart when you're looking at what's next for your life and your career after after 544 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,640 your undergrad. And I think we have done a great job of that so far. 545 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,040 You know, there are some high level programs that will discourage you from certain majors 546 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:19,280 because they're too taxing and you can't balance the two. Not a fan of that. I'm not I'm not 547 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:26,200 at all a fan of that. I love, you know, I love programs that can find that balance. 548 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,680 And you know, if you want to go into medical school, you want to go into dental school, 549 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,240 you know, pharmacy school, you know, you want to go get your MBA. If there are other athletes 550 00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:39,480 that are on the team, kind of on that same track or that, you know, past athletes that 551 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:44,960 have this really good indication that, you know, you can strike that balance. But the 552 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,240 reason I was so impressed by that is just a lot of programs don't have that balance. 553 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:57,520 You know, it is. And my theory is that it will get worse with the changes in college 554 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:05,440 swimming in terms of the win now at all costs at the top end. And I do worry about that, 555 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,440 that balance because in the end, our sport isn't a sport where we have a ton of people 556 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:18,040 making seven figures a year. You know, endorsements are tough even for our highest athletes. And 557 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:24,800 so you really do need to take advantage of the opportunity of being in school, because 558 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,480 that is the best investment is getting that education. And if we start to see a more cutthroat 559 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:35,320 atmosphere where academics take a backseat, that might end up being detrimental to our 560 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,860 sport in the long run. 561 00:50:36,860 --> 00:50:42,560 I think we're lucky because of the nature of our sport. It automatically teaches you 562 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:48,160 hard work, dedication, time management. And I think that's very transferable to a lot 563 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:54,360 of areas of life. You know, there's obviously some one off cases, but I really think there's 564 00:50:54,360 --> 00:51:01,280 a pretty strong correlation between fast swimmers and smart swimmers. You know, they just they 565 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:08,000 go hand in hand. And the people that have their life in order, you know, the schoolwork, 566 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,600 their social life, you go into the locker room, you look at the lockers, like, you're 567 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,500 going to be able to see who's got their life in order. And that tends to translate pretty 568 00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:22,160 well to their daily performance and practice. And so, you know, we as coaches, we have a 569 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:27,040 hand in that, and it's our responsibility to make sure that we're preparing them for 570 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,920 whatever it is that they're gonna do after this. 571 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:37,560 Swimmers, competitive swimmers make great employees. They really do. It is it is a hard 572 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:43,720 work, but those that that manage that time tend to do really well in their professional 573 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:50,080 careers. So that's why I think it's so important that the changes that college swimming and 574 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:57,400 NCAA that that that they're undergoing, you can't take amateur sports out of college, 575 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:04,480 you can't. It would be so bad because there's so many athletes in college right now that 576 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:12,200 their athletics is paving the way for their extreme success as an adult, you know, in 577 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:18,440 a workforce. And, and that that's the thing. I know we were such a new college football 578 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,160 playoffs was, you know, we just, you know, just wrapped up the championship game just 579 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,680 happened right. And there's all this excitement. There's all this money around it. But in the 580 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:36,480 end, you know, while the public is very football crazy, very basketball crazy in March, NCAA 581 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:43,480 athletes that there's a program here that produces 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of wonderful, 582 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,760 wonderfully trained professionals that go out and become doctors and dentists and pharmacists 583 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:53,720 and everything else. And that's why the sport cannot lose its primary mission, which is 584 00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:59,720 to create, you know, those individuals that succeed. And that that's, that's the fear. 585 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:05,160 I think that's really the fear. Absolutely. Okay, so last question. So Kataba, you got 586 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:10,000 a lot of sports there, right? You got a football, you have basketball. So besides swimming, 587 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:16,280 what's your favorite sport? What do you like to go watch? Yeah. I would say as of recent, 588 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,080 this is the first year inaugural year of our men's volleyball team. And that has been really 589 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,040 fun. I'm I've sit right next door, my office is right next door to our men's volleyball 590 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:32,800 coach. He's incredible. He, he coached had USC Southern California. He was the national 591 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:38,240 coach of the year and D one for I think two or three years. He was coach on the junior 592 00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:42,920 national team. He's he's really awesome. And he's kind of come and, and started this program. 593 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,520 And it's fun. I mean, I've never really watched men's volleyball. We have a women's volleyball 594 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:53,000 team and our team has really enjoyed going to watch them the three years I've been here. 595 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,400 But man, men's volleyball is like, it's crazy. They those guys are jumping out of the building. 596 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:04,240 And they just absolutely smack that ball. So that's been really cool. My me and my staff 597 00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:10,080 went and watched the first home game the other night. That was really fun. Outside of that, 598 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:15,760 I think there's so many good sports. Our women's soccer has gone to the NCAA tournament multiple 599 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:22,440 times, our women's basketball team got third in the country. My first year here. So yeah, 600 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:29,480 I think there's there's a big kind of sports vibe on campus, a lot of athletes, you know, 601 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,840 of our of our total enrollment. And they go and support each other, which is fun. And 602 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,960 our kids love to go to other other games as well. 603 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,720 So we've done six episodes of this of this podcast. And that is the second time volleyball 604 00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:47,720 has come up as the as really so good. It's fun. It's just it's very athletic. It's it 605 00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:52,120 is a fun it is a fun sport to watch. It is a lot of thing I like watching like, all right, 606 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:56,720 how do we how do we jump like that? We got to do something in the weight room to get 607 00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:01,480 get our verticals to match those guys. Yeah, yeah, that that start can be the difference 608 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,880 especially in the real age. All right. So yeah, Coach Gearing, thank you for coming 609 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,360 on. I really appreciate your time. I'm excited to see how you guys end up at conference championships 610 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,400 this year. You got a bigger team now really going to be watching that development. It's 611 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:21,640 it's really fun to watch you, you know, kick off your career with a lot of success. 612 00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,280 Thank you, Jamie. I appreciate it. I love what you guys are doing. Products awesome. 613 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:41,880 This this podcast is great giving people a platform and yeah, appreciate it. Thank you.