Alright, welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight.
I am Jamie Bailey and I am super excited about today's guest.
Coach Gregg Parini has been coaching at Denison for 38 seasons and built an absolute powerhouse
of a program.
He's won seven national titles, 24 conference titles, and was named NCAA D3 Coach of the
Year 11 times.
He was also named one of the one of the 100 greatest college swimming coaches in the past
century by the CSCAA.
Coach Parini, it is great to have you on today.
Good morning, Jamie.
Good to be with you.
Appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.
Alright, so you've been at Denison for almost four decades.
You know, most coaches, they would have jumped around chasing other programs, but you stayed
here the whole time.
So why?
What makes Denison such a special place?
I think it's a multi-layer response.
I think first and foremost, it's an institution that's very forward thinking.
There's a lot of institutional growth here, which equates to professional growth for me
personally.
You know, the university has experienced exponential growth since I arrived here.
It's been great to partner with the university in that effort, you know, contributing where
we can, both in the classroom and in the pool.
It's been a source of pride and satisfaction for me.
And in order to be able to sustain that, you know, you need to be able to find new horizons.
And Denison has been really supportive and allowing me to develop professionally as well
as personally through the job, finding multiple ways for me to contribute to the community
and the university.
On the other side of that, part of that is just a lot of it was driven by family considerations.
You know, my wife and I are the parents of six sons.
All the boys were born and raised here in Granville.
This is home.
This is home base, despite the fact that they are literally living around the world, everything
in all sorts of different hemispheres.
I think we're spread out by about 19 different time zones right now.
This is still home base for them.
And it was important for my wife and I to be able to provide our kids with a stable
home front that way.
And we knew moving around a lot, chasing jobs, whatever it might be, would create a certain
level of instability for them that, you know, that we just favored staying here for family
reasons as much as professional.
Were you ever tempted to leave?
Has it been just a non-starter the whole time?
Well, no.
I've been flattered and humbled enough to a number of other programs have approached
me about maybe, you know, taking a look at their opportunity, their positions there,
and have gotten into some discussions with them.
But ultimately, it was a family decision that kept me here as well as the professional opportunities
that Denison offered me.
The opportunity to be a faculty member here and to teach on top of coaching was certainly
a plus.
I was sort of a dinosaur that way.
When I got into the game, there were a lot of us who were not only head coaches, which
is typically an administrative contract, but also some of us who also had faculty status.
And for me to be able to maintain faculty status here at Denison has been an important
piece of my professional experience.
And so it was going to take a lot for me to leave, that's for sure.
And I just never found the grass greener on the other side of the fence.
And that's something that I found that was really unique about you, you know, not just
being a coach, but also a professor.
And you've not just been any professor, you've won awards for teaching, and you even chaired
a department for a while.
I mean, you know, that's like a whole other level of responsibility and workload that
most coaches don't want to take on.
So why did you want to take on both?
Why did you want to be a coach and a teacher?
And do you think it made you a better coach?
Well, I'm eclectic in my interest.
I've got interests that go well beyond the swimming pool.
And a lot of those are academically driven interests and a lot of questions, just kind
of a curious mind as much as anything.
But also felt like for me to fully embrace the student and student athlete experience
here, I had to immerse myself in the academic and the administrative end of things.
Yeah, it was a lot of work.
Some of those hills were pretty long and pretty steep, but they enriched my life in a great
way.
But it also gave me opportunities to see my students and my student athletes in a different
light.
I got a chance to share in their academic struggles and challenges and opportunities
in a real way, rather than just from, you know, arm's length.
I got a chance.
I mean, a lot of my students were my swimmers and get a chance to watch them, you know,
and hear their stories and goals, aspirations, fears, anxieties related to academics.
I think it did make me a better coach.
It helped me.
It gave me another way to relate to them, to have some shared territory, so to speak.
You know, so I think the opportunity to teach was not only enrich my life and enrich the
world, but it also and I think it also gave my athletes a chance to see me in a different
light, which I think was really, really important.
They saw a lot.
There's more to this guy than just simply a coach.
He's got this academic and intellectual side that he wants to pursue and wants to share
with us.
And I think it did add a certain level of depth in those relationships.
And they got a chance to know me.
I got a chance to know them a little bit better through those shared experiences.
And so I think the windfall, I mean, sure, there were some hard moments and, you know,
you certainly get a little bit tired doing it, but I think the windfall certainly outweighed
any of the deficits that came along with it.
Yeah, no, that's really interesting.
OK, so let's go back to when you started at Innocent.
So back when you started, Kenyon was, you know, this unstoppable powerhouse.
They were they were dominating everything, men's side, women's side.
And then in 2011, your men's team actually snapped Kenyon's 31 year title streak, which
crazy enough, that was a streak that you helped start when you swam at Kenyon.
So when you started, did you have a master plan for how you were going to build your
program, you know, one that could actually win a national title?
Or did that plan just kind of evolve over time?
Well, you know, as I as I tell my team, I came in with a four year plan and I'm still
working on it.
You know, so I had I mean, I think even as an undergrad, having having been a swimmer
at Kenyon and having competed against Denison for four years, even as a student athlete,
I recognized and saw the potential that a place like Denison had for developing a quality
swimming and diving program.
And so when the opportunity for me to come to Denison availed itself, you know, I was
quick to jump on it just simply because I saw the potential of it.
I don't think I had a very firm grasp of all the challenges that were going to come my
way.
I don't think anybody does until you get into the weeds.
But yeah, I had I had a vision that we could turn Denison into something special.
It was a slow evolution.
I mean, if I had it my way, you know, the women won in 2001, men in 2011, those are
like my 13th in my 23rd years here.
I would if it was my way, I wouldn't have taken that long.
But you know, that's how things go.
But I think for me to be able to get traction on the vision here, I had to I had to have
a really good understanding what the university's strengths and weaknesses were and how I could
how I could shape what we're trying to do here to take advantage of what Denison had
to offer.
And that just takes time.
I mean, if if anything, you know, my my my old man just used to call me stubborn just
simply because he's like, you know, you just won't let go of this vision.
And I think there's a certain amount of that.
I don't think anybody would ever accuse me of being lazy or easily frustrated because,
you know, the reality is, you know, swimming, swimming in Kenyon's shadow for so long.
I mean, I can make the argument nobody's finished second place more than I have, you know, but
but it also just took a long time for us to kind of chip away at that mystique, to chip
away at that that formidable shadow that they did cast.
But I also knew if we were close to them, that was the best that was the best way to
compete.
I mean, it would have been the best if we're, you know, you know, if if we tried to share
the yard with the big dog.
And I think I think it did prove to be true.
It just took a little longer than I might have wanted it to.
So when you when you started, was was recruiting the biggest challenge, you know, just getting
getting those athletes to Denison or was it, you know, getting a staff together?
What were some of the bigger challenges early on that you slowly chipped away at?
Well, you know, I I don't think I would have articulated this as a twenty seven year old.
But, you know, culture trumps strategy every time.
And I think for me, the most important piece was creating a team culture that would that
would, I think, provide us with the resources to be competitive at the highest levels.
It took a long time to get there.
And I think the one thing, especially when we're talking about college, you know, every
every college university has a certain gravitational pull within its student culture.
And then each athletic team, I think, has a similar has a gravitational pull to.
And I think the most successful programs, ultimately, those gravitational pulls are
pulling everybody along in the same direction where things become more challenging is when
a coach or a program finds itself in a position where the cultural vector is a little bit
different than maybe the university's vector.
And so I think for a long time, it was trying to figure out exactly where the university
was going and how I could best leverage those leverage that culture to where we could build
a program here.
And quite honestly, it wasn't always particularly well aligned.
It took us a while to get better alignment.
But I think we're there now institutionally.
I think we're you know, I think the swimming and diving program culture aligns itself really
well now with university culture.
That was probably the biggest challenge.
I was just getting those cultural pieces in place.
And I had a fascinating conversation with Mark Schubert my very first year here at Denison
having to run into him at a state meet.
As it turns out, we're recruiting the exact same person here.
Schubert coaching at USC.
And here I am a first year coach at Denison.
And we're coaching this.
I'm coaching this young lady, a backstroker from Ohio.
And I won't mention names or anything like that.
But Mark and I happen to be sitting at the Ohio High School State Meet next to each other.
And we introduced each other and we started sharing stories.
And the question came up because I think he was pretty new at USC at this time was how
long does it take to change team culture within Division 1 and Division 3?
And he thought it would take about four years at a D1 level to shift the culture as a result
of having scholarship money available.
But maybe in a D3 setting it would take maybe twice as long.
That was his conclusion.
He goes, Greg, I think this is going to take you twice as long as it would me simply because
you don't have that scholarship leverage to shape your team in the same way.
And I do think there's probably some truth to that.
I mean, again, it took me a little longer to get where I wanted to.
But I think we eventually got there.
But having said all that, there's no finish line because that cultural thing just keeps
shifting all the time.
I think it's the same whether you're a coach on a sports team or you're leading a team
in the business world or starting a company.
The one thing that I've learned is that you can't create a culture.
Culture happens.
You can create culture norms, right?
And you can set vectors in place.
But ultimately, it's a multivariable problem.
And the culture will happen.
And it's up to you to try to kind of push it along the way.
And it's a really complicated problem.
And it does take a while.
It's a very complex issue.
And I think too often we get caught up in the X's and O's and the details when in fact,
there's much bigger issues influencing your team.
I mean, one of the things I'm grateful for now is that when you're fighting that cultural
battle, you can write the greatest workout ever.
But if you don't have the right people implementing, it doesn't matter how good that workout is.
Conversely, if you've got the right culture in place or things are moving in the right
direction, you can write a mediocre workout.
And the best people will turn that into gold.
And so that's why cultural influences are so important.
And we hammer it here.
I mean, we are very intentional about it so much that we went out and hired our own culture
coach here.
We have a director of team culture development, a young lady who swam for me here back in
2001.
Then she went on to get her PhD and work in the corporate world for a long time.
And she came back to central Ohio and we hired her to do the same sorts of things here that
she was doing in the corporate world.
And probably one of the best things we've ever done.
Yeah.
If you have a great culture, it really cultivates motivation.
And again, corporate world, sports world doesn't matter, right?
If you have motivated, driven people, they do amazing things.
But if you have people that are frustrated, they don't feel like they have a place, it
doesn't work.
It doesn't matter what kind of all sorts you have.
And that's really interesting.
You have someone that's focused on the culture piece because I think that's really smart.
Yeah.
Well, again, we've been doing it for a while now and it's probably one of the more important
steps we took in the evolution of the program.
It helped get all that energy and all those, let's say the culture vectors all pointed
in the right direction.
We've got much better alignment now than we ever have.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you've got this incredible pool, the Trumbull Aquatic Center, right?
It's been called one of the best pools in the country.
Not just D3, but all divisions across country, right?
Do facilities like that, do they make a big difference in recruiting and performance or
is it more just kind of a cherry on top thing?
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think what most parents, what most prospective students and families are looking for is I
think they're looking for a certain energy and indication that the programs are evolving
and developing.
And we had the old six-lane 25-yard pool at the Gregory and the auditorium.
I coached in that facility for 25 years and it had its issues.
We had all sorts of mechanical and physical plant issues with that.
We were able to build some championship teams out of that program.
But at the same time, it also at times felt like a bit of an anchor simply because it
was holding us back.
And when we did build the new facility, I think in the public's mind, I was like, oh,
Denison's investing in swimming now.
This is something that's important.
It was a reflection of the university's motivation and intent.
And from that standpoint, I think it energized the way people view Denison.
It's like, wow, OK, they've got some forward thinking going on there.
And it's reflected in this brand new facility that they built.
Yeah, years ago, I had a parent sitting beside me at a meet.
And he pulls his phone out and he says, my son visited Kenyon, but I drove over to Denison.
And he starts showing me all these pictures of the pool.
And he was just so impressed by the pool.
And it's amazing.
And it's got to be a lot of fun to practice and to compete there.
Well, I remember talking to Jack Barley down in Georgia because, you know, Jack, when I
got when I got so we had all sorts of issues and I was talking to Jack about his old pool
and I remember him sharing stories because, yeah, when we have recruits on campus, I don't
even take him to the pool to see it anymore.
It's so bad.
And I said, well, Jack, I would love nothing more than to get a brand new facility.
And he goes, Greg, be careful what you ask for on that one, because it will it will create
problems that you could never expect.
And I remember one of the one of the big challenges that we had because we used to run double
workouts every afternoon in the old facility simply because we couldn't get our athletes
through.
Then all of a sudden, you know, you're offered instead of six lanes, you got 21 lanes to
work with.
And instead of having a smaller crew of 30 in the pool that you're working with, all
of a sudden, you've got 60 plus athletes in the pool.
And the issues that that that dynamic created were something I would never have guessed.
I'm just excited.
OK, I got I don't have to be on deck for an extra three hours every afternoon.
But it did change the workout dynamics in a very in a very unexpected way for me.
And I remember calling Jack after like a week of it.
And I said, yeah, you're exactly right.
Yep.
This is this is this has presented some headaches and learning curves.
But we figured it out by now, though.
But it's it's great coming to work every day to have that kind of facility.
And you just feel good about it.
It feels good.
Yeah, it probably doesn't hurt with recruiting because you always get these rave reviews
coming out of visits, you know, for the kids that visit Dennis and so.
Well, it's a beautiful pool.
And I and I and I, you know, we stole as many good ideas from a lot of the facilities around
that we found and probably the one thing that I enjoy the most.
And I was actually taking pictures of it this morning and practices the the the windows
with some of the windows faced east.
So we get the sunrise in the morning and then the other side of the pool faces west and
we've got windows so we get the sun sun sunsets at night and the pool just lights up and all
the all the great colors.
And this morning we had this wonderful pinkish and orange shoe coming through the facility
windows and it was just gorgeous.
And all the colors were flying this morning.
It made it made a very special morning for us.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's let's let's let's go back to recruiting for a minute.
So, you know, when you're recruiting, you're going after some who are also getting hit
up by some some really good D1 programs.
And a lot of these kids, I see this with all of these athletes that we work with today.
So many of them are just stuck in this.
I have to go D1 mindset, you know, just kind of tunnel vision, right?
You know, even though the top end of D3 swimming is crazy fast, what do you say to them to
shift their perspective?
How do you sell them on Denison and your program?
Well, I think for a student athlete to be successful here at Denison specifically, you
know, we spend up we spend a lot of time just talking about the academic opportunities that
come here that I think for us in many ways, the academic experience here and especially
how our students can connect with faculty members and also utilize Denison's year round
internship program, I think is a in many cases a tiebreaker for a lot of when we go up against
some of these other schools, our proximity to Columbus, Ohio, which is now the 14th largest
city in the United States.
And the resourcing that the university has access there in the form of internships and
scheduling opportunities and field experience has been great.
I mean, the university access is Columbus regularly, we have shuttles that run our students
in and out of the city regularly, you know, we're only 25 minutes from downtown.
So for us, it's not really a swimming argument so much as an academic experience and the
fact that we can we can talk about smaller classrooms and personalized academic experiences
and building important relationships with professors and faculty members and administrators.
One of one of our big selling points is that I think we may have the only college president
that comes to every prelim and final session of both conference and national championships.
I mean, yeah, President Weinberg is probably our greatest fan.
He doesn't miss a session at either conference or nationals.
I've talked to peers at D1, D2 and D3, and they're like, you got to be kidding me.
And then on top of it, I'll say, well, yeah, Adam makes a point of being at all of our
sessions and they're like, wait, you're on a first name basis with the president of the
university.
I'm like, I sure am.
You know, we sit down and have lemonade or a glass of wine at least twice a year just
to talk about the state of the college and to talk about the state of the program.
And so for us, the argument is really quite simple when you look at the academic opportunities
that Denison avails to its students on top of providing, I think, a quality swimming
program in which, you know, and I think, you know, we've been using, you know, been using
your software program to point out to student athletes how our athletes are improving at
the highest levels compared to no matter what division we're talking about, whether we're
talking about D1, D2 or D3, Denison swimmers tend to improve more than just about anybody
else.
And, you know, the new facility behind us, you know, with the new 50 meter facility,
what that's done for us internationally has been huge because, you know, we're starting
to get kids to Olympic trials and we can train seriously for, for, for meets that might lie
outside the NCAA season, you know, you know, obviously staying within NCAA rules.
But you know, I think that that that in and of itself, I think, makes us a more attractive
option for the serious swimmer who's got aspirations to swim beyond the NCAA season.
Yeah, we say this all the time.
We, you know, you have some of the best coaching staffs are not in power for.
Right.
And I think that sometimes that message goes in one ear and out the other.
And so that's why we have the data to back it up.
And you have done a phenomenal job with your program.
And I think that that that history of success has it has it made it easier to recruit?
I mean, you've done this for 38 years now, right?
You've had this history of national titles.
You've seen so much development coming out of these swimmers.
Does it get a little easier each year or is each year still just sort of that same recruiting
struggle?
Well, it doesn't get easier.
I can tell you that just simply because there's some the market is changing so quickly, especially
with the transfer portal and NIL money and the grant house settlement and all those things
are impacting it.
And it's such a moving landscape right now.
And you know, and there's there's new legislature being considered by the NCAA, which is, you
know, they're talking about granting five years of eligibility.
And what does that mean for a four year college, residential college that doesn't have grad
programs?
It's about how the landscape will change if also in that fifth year is granted.
And so there's the market's changing quickly.
And there's there's but I do think it helps to have the reputation of developing kids
and to providing them with a environment where they can excel academically as well as athletically.
You know, my heartfelt belief is, is just because you happen to choose an academically
centered institution in central Ohio, that shouldn't preclude you from pursuing your
swimming dreams to the nth degree.
And we've been fortunate, you know, like some other D3 schools, we've had kids swim internationally,
we've had an Olympian here.
And you know, we've had kids compete at world championships and other major international
meets and all these kids had to improve substantially to get there.
At the same time, though, they're they're being provided with a world class education.
And I think that's what we're trying to provide with our kids.
And you know, you know, Denison's not for everybody, but it is for the person that wants
to have a really, I think, intimate experience in their academic and swimming experience.
That's kind of what we're looking for.
You know, when you when you told me the president attends every meet, that that that is such
a big important data point, because, you know, everything about the college sports right
now, everything's wild right now.
Right.
Everything's changing.
There's so much fear and certainty and doubt.
There's so much fun to have a program where the president actually takes an interest in
your sport.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's big.
I mean, that is really that is not typical at all.
And that's a huge recruiting bullet point.
Well, I think it is huge.
And I mean, and and he knows all of our swimmers by name.
He was he was not a swimmer.
He was an ice hockey player, actually, in college.
I went to a small liberal arts school, much like Denison.
He went to a NASCAR.
We he apologizes for that chronically.
We haven't gone to a NASCAR.
But you know, I think I was I was on part of the interview committee that interviewed
President Weinberg when when he took the job.
And one of the things that stood out to me and I think that this is true about what we're
trying to do here.
I remember when we when we lined up all the other candidates who were vying for the president's
position here at Denison, he was the only candidate who talked about athletics as co-curricular
not extracurricular.
He looks at what we do on the playing foot field, on the courts, in the in the pool as
a serious part of the student experience and education.
And he values this at a very profound level.
And Adam has family that that competes.
I mean, he comes from a very athletic, very intellectual family.
He sees the value of what we do here and is quick to congratulate and quick to support.
We're very, very fortunate.
Like I said, I think it's a huge bullet point for us to know that the president is going
to be there and he knows our kids and he knows what a good performance looks like.
And it's not, you know, in all the years Adam's been here, if I think now 12 years, I think
this is his 12th year.
I've never felt pressure to have him to perform either.
It's just support and it's all about process and it's all about helping the young men and
young women in our program move down the road towards adulthood so that they can be, you
know, graduated with a quality degree and be set up for a great future afterwards.
But I've never felt the pressure to win, win, lose or draw.
It's always been positive.
So I like that term co-curricular because, you know, the data backs this up.
Being an NCAA athlete is a huge boost to your career, the rest of your career.
You know, you could have swam 40 years ago and people will still say, did you swim at
Syracuse?
You know, I mean, that's something Benjamin Tells me all the time.
He'll say, people still come up to me and talk about swimming at Syracuse.
Syracuse has had a program in how long?
Decades, right?
And so, you know, that opens opportunities for you when you're getting a job, when you're
going to graduate school and for the parents that are on the fence, you know, should I
really, should I encourage my kid to swim in college or not?
Yes, yes, if they enjoy it, if they love the sport, it is co-curricular.
It is not extracurricular.
And if you have that drive to compete in a sport while doing the academics, the social
and all just the change in life, that speaks wonders to you on your resume and that will
follow you forever.
And I love that term.
Yeah, I remember when I was sitting in the room when he was talking about that.
I'm like, okay, this guy has already distinguished athletics from all the other candidates and
he gets it.
Clearly, he gets it.
And like I said, he was, you know, he was, as he said, he was a good hockey player, not
a great hockey player.
But like I said, just very fortunate to have him in there.
And then again, as things flow downhill, and you know, when you have a president who's
on board, who values what we're doing here athletically in this and much in the same
way that what we're experiencing academically, boy, that just, that just, you know, that
just affirms what our kids are going through in the most positive sort of way.
You know, it validates the path that they've chosen.
Yep.
Okay, so you mentioned Grant House Settlement, and all these things are changing, right?
You know, this question is coming.
So, so, you know, how do you think all of these changes are going to affect swimming
in college at the D3 level?
And specifically, you know, what are the changes coming to Denison from this?
That's the million dollar question.
And I wish I had a better handle on it.
I mean, I, you know, I, you know, things are changing and I'm not an attorney and I don't
understand all the dynamics with the, with Grant Settlement and everything like that.
But what we do see is an influx of money coming into the sport, much of which is regulated,
some of which is not.
What that looks like, you know, I talked to some of my, my colleagues who are in D1 who
are dealing with serious NIL money, who they are not only getting athletes, but losing
athletes.
It's, it's turned into the wild, wild west and the winter is the highest bidder typically.
And all you have to do is just follow these kids and where they end up landing.
And you know, I don't know what the implications are for D3.
I think NIL money will find its way down here, I think, in time.
It may already be present in some cases in some small ways, but, you know, obviously
we're not dealing with the $10 million quarterback, you know, who's going to sign, you know, that
kind of thing.
But, you know, we're, you know, Ohio State is just down the road from us and we see the
impact that their NIL money had on their football program.
And you know, conversations with Bill Dorenkot at Ohio State this fall was telling me about
how the NIL money is impacting what he's trying to do and, you know, squad size limitations
and things like that.
I just don't know what that's going to look like in D3 at this point, but I do expect,
I do anticipate that NIL money will come our way.
It will be a factor if it's not already.
And I would think that Denison wanting to remain competitive will adapt to those changing
circumstances.
Will we take the lead on that?
I don't know.
I think, you know, I think it's a lot of wait and see right now and trying to figure out
exactly what the implications are, no matter how it goes.
So yeah, I mean, I wish my crystal ball was clear.
It's just really murky right now.
When we look at swimming coaches as a profession, we always like to look at development.
You know, it's a key indicator of the success of a coach is how well you can develop athletes.
If we look at football, we look at it a little differently in a different lens because development,
okay, maybe, but now more than ever, a coach at a powerful level, I don't think we'll
have to worry about developing as much as they will, for lack of a better term, buying
the talent, identifying and buying.
And so it's and we're seeing this with kids that, you know, we've helped at the football
level.
You know, it's so many of these programs that are like, no, I have to win right now.
I'm transfer portal only.
If you're in high school, unless you are, you know, insert big name here, right, you're
probably you probably need to, you know, go, go, you know, earn your playing time at a
mid major and then move on up.
But I don't think that's going to happen at the swimming level, at least not for the majority
of schools.
And I think development will still be a primary indicator of the success of a coaching staff
at the swimming level.
I hope you're right.
I really hope you're right.
I hope we don't lose track of that altogether.
I know I just I remember talking to a couple of there.
You know, there was a there was a pretty there was a big transfer this past spring with one
of the big D1 guys and all the all the winds were blowing him in one direction.
So I called the coach of the school that is and I'm like, are you going to it looks like
you're going to get so and so and he goes, no, not getting so and so the winds winds
are turning the other direction.
I said, well, what what happened there?
And he goes, well, it just got down to the money and we just we just got outbid.
And it was like and I felt first I felt really bad for the coach who lost the swimmer initially
because it was like, oh, man, you know, you brought this kid along.
I mean, this kid developed under your tutelage under your watch.
And then he ran to the next highest bidder and then he ran to the next highest bidder.
And it was like, you know, and I just, you know, again, you know, I it's frustrating.
And I think for a lot of people, you know, coaches in particular, because I do think
I think the good coaches are invested in the relationship and invested in the swimmer.
And it's I think our hearts are easily broken when we see kids break away from that.
And you can't blame the kids.
I mean, they're trying to take care of family in many cases and trying to create opportunity
for themselves.
But, you know, for most of the good coaches are invested in the relationship to begin
with and it's not necessarily a business transactional dynamic.
And I think swimming is also a different kind of sport because coaches have their own training
philosophies.
You have your secret sauce.
Athletes acclimate to that training environment.
And you can't if you're flipping coaches every year, you're you're putting, you know, a big
challenge roadblock right right in your way toward development.
And so to that end, you know, I think the transfer portal, I'm really curious how the
transfer portal is going to go moving forward, given the fact that you don't have to sit
out a year, given the fact that you can get NIL money for you transfer portal.
Do you plan on using it more or do you do you have a strong preference on building your
athletes from high school on?
Well, I you know, I have no problem with transfers.
I mean, the university has been pretty, pretty transparent about it.
Our president loves transfers, which is unlike his predecessor.
His predecessor was not as big a fan of transfers, but our current president is a big fan of
it.
And, you know, we're going to exercise a transfer portal.
I mean, my coaching staff boards over that daily.
We look for it and we try to find that one.
We've had a couple of transfers here over the years.
Ultimately, you know, but you know, we prefer I can't say I have a preference for the Q2
because it comes in for four years and finishes with us.
I mean, you have a little bit more time to develop that relationship.
I think there's opportunities there.
But you know, a transfer student, you know, is also generally a more mature student.
They're more seasoned.
There's a different kind of learning curve when they arrive.
And can we help them through that?
So there are opportunities for us to, you know, connect with them.
But yeah, we're going to we're going to we're going to leverage the transfer portal as much
as we possibly can, just in large part to stay stay competitive, because that there's
there's a lot of good swimmers out there and there's a lot of good swimmers.
I mean, unfortunately, a lot of these power fours are having to scale down their roster
sizes.
So a lot of the kids who were promised spots just a year or two ago, all of a sudden are
finding that that opportunity is no longer available.
And so if we can provide if we can provide a quality student athlete with an opportunity
here, then I'm OK with that.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Roster limits are going to hit.
I don't know that we know exactly what that's going to look like.
It seems to be a little bit in flux.
You know, we've heard the Big Ten is settling at 30 men.
I don't know where the SEC is going to land.
We've heard 22.
We've heard 30.
I don't know where it's going to be in the end at ACC.
The same way I don't know exactly.
It sounds like they're going to be around 30.
But the the teams that were carrying 40 and, you know, 40 to 45 men, that yeah, there's
been some pain.
There's been some.
Yeah, I mean, we're even we had a we had a we had a swimmer reach out to us who had made
a commitment to one of the power force as a junior and notable notable swimmers, notable
talent and then got the phone call to said, you know, we can't you know, that spot we
offered you a year ago is no longer available.
And you know, the kid was heartbroken and also he has to start the college search all
over again.
And you know, you feel bad for him.
Yeah, so, you know, I it's again, I think the wild, wild west is probably the best descriptor,
you know, of what's going on right now.
And I don't think anybody's I think I think basically the in some in some cases, it feels
like the the the tail's wagging the dog right now.
I'm not always sure if this is all good.
Yeah, I think it's like everything else.
It'll be shades of gray.
There'll be good parts and there'll be better parts.
But I don't I have I've spent a lot of time trying to ease fear that college swimming
is going away.
I do not believe college swim is going away.
I believe power force are going to limit rosters.
I believe there's going to be some pain.
But I truly believe that the the the meat and the heart of college swimming are mid
majors, D2 and D3.
This is where the volume of our of our coaches are our kids are.
And they're not as drastically impacted by what the grant house settlement will do to
the power four programs, who, quite frankly, you know, their budgets are very dependent
on what happens on Saturdays in the fall with football.
And and I don't know that that that's not necessarily it is definitely not true for
most mid majors, that their entire academic budget is dependent on the success of how
they do in conference at a power four level.
Yeah, I think I think conversations that I'm having casual conversations, nothing.
I'm not I'm not on any committees or anything like that.
I think casual conversations among the coaches is probably what happens if the power four
decides to break away from the NCAA.
Right.
That is probably that would be a first Earth mover that would that would shift things tectonically
in a pretty significant way, because D3 is dependent on those contracts, those television
contracts.
I mean, we're you know, I think we get one percent of that television revenue to fund
all of Division three.
And I know Division three has, you know, you know, so as long as power four stay stay in
the game, I think we're going to be OK.
And that's my hope.
But I agree with you.
I think college swimming will exist in some form or fashion, hopefully, hopefully at a
a varsity level as opposed to simply a club level.
That's my hope is that we can stay within, you know, stay fully sanctioned by the universities
opposed to being relegated to a club level.
And you know, that's that's I think where we are realistically.
So hopefully we can hold the whole serve on that.
Yeah, I think and I think the biggest challenge right now with the way these changes are shaking
out is that you do have you have kiddos, you know, as a report of a quarterback, junior
in high school gets a 10 million dollar deal to go to a power four school.
Right.
So these are now no longer amateur athletes.
These are professional athletes.
Right.
And you have one organization, the NCAA, that will be managing professional athletes like
this one, as well as the majority, 66 percent of NCAA athletes do not play football or basketball.
So the heart of NCAA athletes are not going to be professionals.
And that is a weird dynamic now to have to govern what happens to the four or five million
dollar quarterback transfer, as well as, you know, the rower or the wrestler or the gymnast.
And I think that I don't know how well equipped the NCAA is to handle that balance right now.
Yeah, it's you know, we're experiencing this on a family level.
Our youngest of six sons is playing junior hockey up in Canada right now.
And he's a pretty good hockey player.
And I think that there's probably some place for him to play at some point.
But when the NCAA allowed the CHL, the Canadian hockey, these are paid players now to come
down and are eligible to compete in the NCAA.
All those spots that were available for the junior amateurs are now being taken up by
these kids have been paid.
So there's I mean, it's hitting on it's hitting on a lot of different levels with a lot of
different sports and how it how it's going to be wrangled in or if it's going to be wrangled
in at all, it's going to be interesting.
But because there's always there's only so many spots and only so much money out there.
So we'll see.
See how it plays out.
Yep.
OK, let's let's shift to to training.
So we talked about this a little bit.
But so you've been doing this for almost 40 years.
So has your as you're developing these athletes, you're staying on top, you're winning national
titles.
Has your training philosophy changed much or did you lock in early on in your career
on what works and how much do you adapt to the new science and the trends that are happening
in swimming?
Well, I think I think we figured out what works.
I think how we how we get it to work has changed radically.
Obviously, the science of swimming has changed quite a bit.
I'm a product of the 60s and 70s and early 80s.
My own training, you know, the the old days were, you know, the you know, the twenty thousand
meter days, you know, the Mission Viejo days and things like that.
We all heard the horror stories come out out of Schubert's program.
And but, you know, the science has changed.
And as a physiologist, I think I'm obligated to try to keep up on the science as best I
possibly can talk to coaches and professionals out there who know a lot more about the sport
than I do and witness and ask questions and observe, you know, how things are getting
done.
But yeah, it was interesting.
You asked this question.
I had a couple of the guys in my office the other day and I keep I keep all my workouts.
I've had workouts from when I was coaching club in high school back in the 1980s.
And one of the guys got into the workouts and they're looking at these things is like,
coach, here's a really good set.
Why don't we ever do this?
And I'm like, because it would kill you.
You wouldn't survive that set.
You know, and I look back, you know, I spent some time up at Club Wolverine with their
band check when he was, you know, dealing with, you know, coaching Carlton Bruner and,
you know, he had Dolan and Melchow and Kerry Hale.
And I look at the volume of training that those that they're putting out there compared
to what we're doing now.
And it's yeah, the science has changed.
I don't think the kids have changed.
I just think we're getting smarter at what we're doing.
And I think we have a much better understanding is to how how rest and recovery factor in
to the sport.
You know, I thought Dave Marsh said it really well, you know, we used to train to train,
now we train to race.
And I think that was a significant shift in people's paradigms and mindsets.
And so I think, you know, we're training differently than we used to.
And I think we're getting more out of what we do.
And it's not only just a physiologically.
I think the other piece you got to take into account is the environmental changes that
are I mean, I think the kids are exposed to different stresses now than they did maybe
10, 15 years ago.
You know, the post covid era has been particularly challenging for a lot of our young people
and and making sure that you're tuned in to that and making sure that you're taking emotional
and mental health care is is, you know, seriously, just like you would, you know, you know, whether
or not you're training their bodies properly.
So I think I think it's multifaceted.
I think if you're going to be a good coach, you've got to be tuned in to all that.
I mean, my own personal opinion is that peak performance is a perfect storm between body,
mind and heart.
And you've got to have all those things lined up and how we get those things lined up is
is is unique to each athlete.
But I do think there's certain rules that you carry.
And I mean, I think if you want to be a good swimmer, you obviously have to have really
good technique.
You got to have adequate aerobic capacity.
You got to have adequate aerobic power and you've got to have some speed and and how
to strengthen all those things come in.
Now, how we how we get to those things, I think, is maybe changed a little bit over
the last decade or a couple of decades.
But I think that's the fun part of our job is that the sport does keep changing.
And that's what keeps coming back, bringing you back every year.
Yeah.
A big part of our research at Swimintel has been looking at how clubs train because, you
know, obviously we have hundreds of thousands of kids at the club level.
And you know this because, you know, you've seen what we do and you use what we do.
But, you know, it's it's understanding how those swimmers that you're recruiting have
been training through high school and how that will correlate to their success at, you
know, your program and other programs as well.
And you know, the things that we have seen and we've absolutely seen a shift in philosophy
across a lot of clubs, but at the same time, a lot of stubbornness and hubris to keep doing,
you know, you know, twenty thousand yard days.
Right.
So we see that and some things that that that we have noticed and they're not just becoming
anecdotal.
You're starting to see a trend.
You know, some of the clubs that get a lot out of their swimmers when they're young,
but they're but they're throwing them into ten thousand yard days at the age of twelve
and thirteen.
We're seeing more burnout by the time they get to the college level.
And that goes to your point, right.
It's about it's not just about physically.
Can I do it?
It's mentally as well.
So we do see some burnout.
We do see more tendency for injuries when we have our our twelve and thirteen, fourteen
year old swimming ten thousand yards a day.
Yeah, they're getting a lot out of them.
They're getting that gold medal, that silver medal club, USA club designation.
But at what cost?
Right.
Are they really prepping them for for college?
And you know, and it's not just a yardage game.
I've seen some incredible performances coming out of, you know, short yardage clubs.
You don't have to you don't have to swim one hundred one hundreds once a week to get to
get a lot out of these kids or ever.
Yeah, ever.
Please don't ever do that.
So yeah, it's interesting.
Do you do you are you looking more at where these kids are coming from and the training
that they have they've had through high school and assessing how they'll do it at Denison
from that?
Or does it really not matter?
You're going to take them and you're going to you're going to change their training and
they're going to have that same.
Well, yeah, I think there are there are, you know, there are some clubs in high schools
out there, I think, that do a really, really good job of setting their kids up for the
college experience.
I think that they, you know, they they have the kids mentally, emotionally in a place
where they can take advantage, take the next step.
They've prepared them well.
And there are programs that come to mind.
And there are some other programs that, frankly, I don't think do quite as good a job.
And I think a lot of it is because of the amount of pressure those kids are feeling
in high school and club.
It's like perform now.
So by the time they get to the college ranks, there's not much gas left in the tank.
And so, yeah, we're aware of some programs that I think have maybe a little bit better
reputation, better track record of sending, you know, of having success among the college
swimmers.
And so and then we also, you know, I think in the recruiting process, we're pretty transparent
about our training philosophy and our training schedule.
We have a demanding program.
I think that's why we get results, but I don't think it's foolishly demanding.
I think it's I think it's intelligently demanding.
But I think, you know, we're looking, you know, there's some there's some people, I
think, who come out of very limited backgrounds who will struggle with, let's say, the volume
of workouts that we do here.
And I think we have to vet those candidates carefully, because ultimately, we want to
set the young men and young women up for success.
We don't want to see anybody come in here and just struggle constantly.
And I think that there are better fits out there.
And and we know the kind of student athlete that fits well into our program.
It's generally somebody who's coming from who's been well coached, where there's been
demands, there's been a history of doing doubles.
There's probably a little bit of background in dry land, at least, or an appreciation
for dry land training.
But there's a work ethic here.
I mean, we're unapologetic about the kind of work that we do here.
And I do think that that's why we're getting the results that we do.
But a lot of it has to do with best fit.
Not only the camp, not only does the candidate vet us and understand what they're getting
into, but we're vetting them to make sure that we're setting them up for success.
And I think that just takes a lot of dialogue between the coaches and the recruit, the coaches
and the parents, the coaches and the swimmers coaches back home just so that we get we get
familiar with them.
I mean, we've had swimmers who come into our program who came out of, let's say, pure USRPT
programs.
I mean, the 2000 yard maximum workout.
That's been a struggle.
That athlete has struggled in our program just simply because we have warm ups that
are longer than that.
And so I would never describe us as a high volume program.
But we do think that there is some volume that needs to be taken, taken care of.
So yeah, it's all about best fit, making sure that you're transparent about expectations
and standards.
Yep.
You know, you mentioned you're going to work hard.
This is what works.
It's funny because you'll see swimmers that and I've seen this over and over again, you'll
see swimmers where they'll they'll go through training, they'll work hard.
Someone come out of it and go, man, I hurt.
But this feels good.
You know, you know, that was hard, but that was fun.
And then you have others that and I've seen this, you know, again, firsthand, you know,
that was hard and I don't feel good.
That was hard and that wasn't fun.
And I think that that's, you know, I'm willing to bet that's part of the secret sauce of
longevity as a coach is figuring out, you know, how do you how do you get these athletes
to work hard, not burn out, have fun, have a good culture, because you have great retention.
Your retention has been fantastic.
And the athletes that come out of Denison love Denison.
You have evangelists all over the country.
And so I'm curious if you ever thought about that.
Is that part of the you're going to work hard, but you're going to like it.
You're going to like the results kind of philosophy.
Well, I do think so.
I mean, you know, ultimately, I think most of the people coming through the door want
to get better.
And I think if that's my job is to help them develop.
But we also weren't like I said, we're not we don't apologize for the fact that we are
going to work hard.
And it's not and it's not just it's not hard work for hard work sake.
It's hard work because you're going to get some results and and have some fun along the
way.
And that's part of that that team culture that we talk about.
You know, we're big fans of the concept of synergy here, where the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts, where you start stacking energy.
You know, one single log itself can only contain so much energy.
But if you stack 10 with a similar amount of energy than the heat, the heat increases
exponentially, not algebraically.
And that's how we train.
That's how we compete here.
And I think that that what that makes a difference.
And we talk about that all the time with the kids that, you know, sometimes we don't let's
admit it.
Sometimes we don't have have the juice to do it for ourselves, but we can usually find
the juice to do it for our mates.
All you got to do is look to your right and look to your left and you can find it for
somebody else.
I mean, that's that's my life as a parent.
Right.
Sometimes I won't do it for myself.
But if my kid asked me to do anything, I can always find more juice for my kids.
Well, it's no different than being a part of a good team is that you want to be able
to be available and be reliable for your teammates.
And so, you know, the team piece of it, I think, makes it satisfying.
I think it makes it makes everybody feel like they're rooted into something pretty special
and adds a lot of energy and excitement to what they're doing and fun, to your point.
And that's culture.
Right.
That's that's part of culture.
Sure.
It is.
OK, so you mentioned you mentioned something you mentioned training, not training for training
sake, but training for racing.
And I love I'm fascinated.
We're doing the research on, you know, in season development, what motivates the kids?
Of course, you know, this question is coming about dual meets, you know, so dual meets
are part of your in season assessment.
What's your take on dual meets?
Do you like the way they are right now?
Do you think do you think swimming needs to shake things up and make them more exciting
for fans, change the format to be more of a preparation for championships?
Like if you could change anything, if you had a blank slate, what would you do with
in season racing?
You know, I've hated dual meets for most of my career, but actually in recent years, we've
been doing some really creative stuff with our dual meets.
And I know that, you know, Cal and Stanford do their triple distance dual meets, you know,
which I thought was really great.
We've done that.
We have actually adopted the high school event format.
We do half distances.
We do double distances.
We we just, you know, and I'm fortunate to have a group of coaches that we do meets with
regularly that are also kind of outside the box thinkers.
So you know, we're doing it.
We're doing a we have a meet this weekend on Saturday and it's a 22 event format.
It's nowhere in the rule book.
But we're swimming 22 different events and and and it's just a mixed bag of stuff.
And and the other coach and I are both kind of in the same spot trying to get some data
points so that we can make some informed decisions going to championships about events.
We're not scoring the meet, you know, so it takes some of the pressure off for the coaches
to be able to, you know, so we're not not worried about gathering points.
We're just really there to watch the kids swim and we're opening up every kid gets to
swim six events.
And and and it's just, you know, so we're trying to be creative with it.
And I think, you know, too often we get caught up in orthodoxy.
And the next thing you notice, we're just following the rule book and there's no creativity
in that.
And and I think I think coaches can find ways to bring more fun and enjoyment to it.
And, you know, we try to do it our way here.
I mean, we have a meet traditionally where we go 100 yard relays.
I mean, what kid doesn't like to get up and sprint 100 mentally relay?
I mean, that's like the fact that might be the most fun relay in the history of the books.
I wish I had had the opportunity to do it.
But, you know, we're stuck with swimming.
You know, we had only three relays back in my year.
We didn't have the 200s.
And so so I think there's all sorts of ways to get to get creative with stuff.
You know, the one we were fortunate in our pool that we have a bulkhead and we put the
starting blocks on the bulkhead and the end of the pool.
When we do that 100 yard relay at his pool, they don't have that luxury.
So our kids use running dives.
Wow.
I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, and our kids can't wait.
They can't wait.
They're like, are we are we swimming so and so with their pool or our pool this year?
And I was like, well, we're doing it our pool.
And they're like, not that we want to do the running dives.
So I think there's all sorts of ways to get there to make it more fun for the kids and
make it more engaging at the same time, still be productive.
I mean, I, you know, I don't want to come across as like making this sound like it's
just recessed.
But I do think that there's some play.
I do think it is fun.
I think it is engaging for our kids.
I think they do have a good time with it.
And so I think, you know, I think coaches can be more creative if you can find that
willing partner on the other side of the pool is willing to engage that way.
And it's taken me a while to find those coaches out there who want to break orthodoxy and
try some different stuff.
And we're lucky to have found them.
Yeah, I think for me, the thing that's so strange about dual meets is that the format
is is nothing like the championship meet.
Nothing.
And so, you know, you don't you don't it's not that it has to absolutely prepare you
for championship meets.
But but if all you did were dual meets, that would be like going to a football season,
playing seven on seven, you know, two quarters of football and then OK, now in the playoffs,
we're going to we're going to do four quarters, you know, 11 on 11.
And so I think, you know, I'm not sure that the dual meet format is conducive to preparing
athletes for what championships are like.
And we've talked to, you know, Coach Parisi last last episode talked about how he he greatly
prefers invitationals because structured more like what will happen at the end of the season.
And I think that's that's a great point.
We talked to coaches who who they just train right through all meets.
They don't they you know, you'll swim fast at the end.
And I think mentally that can be very difficult because you don't have that that sense of
progress through the season.
And I think that can that can really mess with your head, especially if at the end of
the year you get the flu or you have a bad taper or something.
Right.
And then you really don't know what you did.
Well, Brian, Brian does a great job at Akron.
I mean, we've known Brian for a long, long time.
And I have seen his model.
He has been adding more and more invites because I think to your point, I think it does get
you better prepared for championships and having to get up on the blocks, whether it's
a pre-o and final format or not.
We go to one of his invitationals in October every year.
And it's you know, it's a it's a great primer for us to get the season started.
And I think it gets the kids off to a good start.
So yeah, I think, you know, we're only limited by our imagination.
And, you know, I looked at like what Arizona State did, what Irby did with the beer wagon,
you know, in the fall, they, you know, they brought the beer wagon out on the pool.
I just got it.
I talked to my aide, I said, can we do that, too?
And she was like, oh, yeah, we could probably figure that out, you know.
And so I think there's all sorts of ways to get creative out there to make it more fun
for more spectator friendly as well as fun and enjoyable for the swimmers.
It shouldn't be a grind all the time.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with having having some fun with this because most of
the kids got into the sport because it is fun.
Yeah, we we worked.
It was a club level meet, but we worked with one of the clubs that we work with.
They they had a midseason taper meat and they had a sponsor who who made the meat insanely
exciting.
So they had they brought out food trucks.
They had t shirts.
They they had a laser light show.
They had a DJ.
And so, you know, going back to your point about how it's not just about physical, it's
about mental, the kids were so they have so much adrenaline after the walkout music going
into finals.
They swam out of their mind.
And part of it was just the energy that created.
And I think sometimes as a sport, we do ourself a disservice by not trying to create an environment
that really gets, you know, our athletes in that right mindset as well as for the fans
as well.
I think there's there's things that we can do getting creative with with those in season
races.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think we're only limited by our imaginations.
And I don't consider myself an imaginative person.
I just I just like, OK, that that looks interesting.
Let's do the high school format this year.
That'd be kind of fun.
That'd be something different.
You know, so three relays instead of two is pretty cool.
OK, last question.
Yes, swimming.
And I know you have been involved in a lot of other sports.
You volunteer as a youth hockey coach, youth baseball coach.
But besides swimming, what's your favorite sports sport to watch at Denison?
And what gets you fired up to just sit back and be a fan at a sport at Denison?
Probably ice hockey.
You know, I coached ice hockey for 25 years.
We have a club level program here.
You know, my kids grew up on that rank.
Like I said, I coached for 25 years.
I enjoy a great hockey game when it's played well.
And we play pretty decent hockey here for club level.
And like I said, it's rooted in my family memories and my time on the ice with the boys.
And so I also I can I can also enjoy a really well played baseball game to just sitting
in the bleachers and just with the sun on my face, especially after I've been indoors
all winter.
It's nice to get out there and just enjoy a good baseball game.
Yeah, you know, I'm the same way.
I played baseball all my life.
And sometimes I, you know, people are like, why do you why do you watch this game?
I love this game.
I don't know why I love this game.
I played it since I was like three years old.
So that was grew up.
Did you grow up in New York?
I know I grew up in Kentucky.
So I grew up in rural Kentucky.
So it's where it was a time when you played every sport you get your hand on.
Yeah.
And so I swam.
I played tennis.
I played baseball.
But baseball was my the love of my life.
And I wasn't you a Reds fan.
Are you a Reds fan?
Yes.
Unfortunately, I know you.
Hey, listen, Big Red Machine, Sparky Anderson, Johnny Badge.
Peter Morgan, Peres.
I mean, that's that was that was my favorite team in the 70s.
If it wasn't the Tigers, it was it was the Reds.
Oh, I love the Reds.
I've seen so many Reds games and I long for the days of the Reds making the playoffs and
being competitive.
But yeah, that's so one of one of our parents, one of the parents of our alumni is the owner
of Henny Penny Chicken Friars.
That's what he does.
He makes it.
And he is actually a minority owner with the Reds.
Oh, wow.
Oh, he whenever the Tigers go to play the Reds, I end up getting two of the platinum
actually up to four platinum seats right behind home plate and get I mean, he treats us really
well.
And I've been down to Cincinnati's new stadium a couple of times.
What a beautiful part.
It is.
It is great.
It's such a fun thing to do.
I love going to any baseball game I can I can go to.
But you know, my kids, they do not understand why I like this game.
So they're swimmers.
So it's fine.
It's fine.
I love swimming just as much.
But as a baseball fan, sometimes it's hard to explain.
And I'll tell you something else.
It's really challenging.
If you've ever been to a baseball game with somebody who has doesn't understand the rules
of baseball, you think it's going to be easy to explain it until you go through and you
do it.
And then you're like, wow, this is actually a complicated game.
It is a complicated game.
So I quick story.
My my grandfather was vice president of Borden back when Borden was in New York City.
And as part of his job, he and he basically given four season tickets to the Yankees and
he had them basically starting in 1932 up until the time Steinbrenner bought.
So imagine all the teams that he saw.
But he had had a he had had a bad business dealing with George Steinbrenner.
And these these seats were 19 rows up off the first baseline right behind the dugout.
I mean, there are just so when Steinbrenner bought the team, my grandfather was so upset
he sold the tickets without telling anybody.
And I'll never forget the phone call.
We're living in Michigan at the time.
And my mother screams that that might be my dad had died or something like that.
And she's like, you did what?
And she just she threw the only time I ever saw her lose her mind.
It was because my grandfather had sold the Yankees tickets and we haven't seen them
since they've all gone back in the 1970s.
Oh, my God.
What a painful day in our household.
That is a that is a great story.
Yeah.
So that is awesome, coach.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
I really appreciate it.
This was fantastic.
And I'm really excited to see how how D3 championships go for you guys.
I know you guys are going to be right in the thick of it.
So it's going to be really fun to watch.
So again, thank you so much.
Thanks for thinking of us.
I really appreciate it.
This has been great.
OK, got a great show going.
All right.
Thank you.
Good luck the rest of the season, coach.
All right.
Thank you, Mayulk cover.