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Alright, welcome to the SwimIntel Spotlight.

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I am Jamie Bailey and I am super excited about today's guest.

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Coach Gregg Parini has been coaching at Denison for 38 seasons and built an absolute powerhouse

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of a program.

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He's won seven national titles, 24 conference titles, and was named NCAA D3 Coach of the

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Year 11 times.

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He was also named one of the one of the 100 greatest college swimming coaches in the past

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century by the CSCAA.

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Coach Parini, it is great to have you on today.

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Good morning, Jamie.

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Good to be with you.

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Appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

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Alright, so you've been at Denison for almost four decades.

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You know, most coaches, they would have jumped around chasing other programs, but you stayed

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here the whole time.

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So why?

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What makes Denison such a special place?

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I think it's a multi-layer response.

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I think first and foremost, it's an institution that's very forward thinking.

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There's a lot of institutional growth here, which equates to professional growth for me

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personally.

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You know, the university has experienced exponential growth since I arrived here.

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It's been great to partner with the university in that effort, you know, contributing where

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we can, both in the classroom and in the pool.

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It's been a source of pride and satisfaction for me.

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And in order to be able to sustain that, you know, you need to be able to find new horizons.

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And Denison has been really supportive and allowing me to develop professionally as well

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as personally through the job, finding multiple ways for me to contribute to the community

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and the university.

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On the other side of that, part of that is just a lot of it was driven by family considerations.

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You know, my wife and I are the parents of six sons.

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All the boys were born and raised here in Granville.

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This is home.

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This is home base, despite the fact that they are literally living around the world, everything

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in all sorts of different hemispheres.

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I think we're spread out by about 19 different time zones right now.

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This is still home base for them.

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And it was important for my wife and I to be able to provide our kids with a stable

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home front that way.

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And we knew moving around a lot, chasing jobs, whatever it might be, would create a certain

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level of instability for them that, you know, that we just favored staying here for family

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reasons as much as professional.

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Were you ever tempted to leave?

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Has it been just a non-starter the whole time?

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Well, no.

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I've been flattered and humbled enough to a number of other programs have approached

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me about maybe, you know, taking a look at their opportunity, their positions there,

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and have gotten into some discussions with them.

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But ultimately, it was a family decision that kept me here as well as the professional opportunities

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that Denison offered me.

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The opportunity to be a faculty member here and to teach on top of coaching was certainly

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a plus.

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I was sort of a dinosaur that way.

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When I got into the game, there were a lot of us who were not only head coaches, which

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is typically an administrative contract, but also some of us who also had faculty status.

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And for me to be able to maintain faculty status here at Denison has been an important

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piece of my professional experience.

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And so it was going to take a lot for me to leave, that's for sure.

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And I just never found the grass greener on the other side of the fence.

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And that's something that I found that was really unique about you, you know, not just

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being a coach, but also a professor.

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And you've not just been any professor, you've won awards for teaching, and you even chaired

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a department for a while.

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I mean, you know, that's like a whole other level of responsibility and workload that

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most coaches don't want to take on.

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So why did you want to take on both?

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Why did you want to be a coach and a teacher?

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And do you think it made you a better coach?

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Well, I'm eclectic in my interest.

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I've got interests that go well beyond the swimming pool.

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And a lot of those are academically driven interests and a lot of questions, just kind

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of a curious mind as much as anything.

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But also felt like for me to fully embrace the student and student athlete experience

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here, I had to immerse myself in the academic and the administrative end of things.

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Yeah, it was a lot of work.

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Some of those hills were pretty long and pretty steep, but they enriched my life in a great

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way.

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But it also gave me opportunities to see my students and my student athletes in a different

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light.

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I got a chance to share in their academic struggles and challenges and opportunities

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in a real way, rather than just from, you know, arm's length.

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I got a chance.

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I mean, a lot of my students were my swimmers and get a chance to watch them, you know,

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and hear their stories and goals, aspirations, fears, anxieties related to academics.

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I think it did make me a better coach.

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It helped me.

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It gave me another way to relate to them, to have some shared territory, so to speak.

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You know, so I think the opportunity to teach was not only enrich my life and enrich the

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world, but it also and I think it also gave my athletes a chance to see me in a different

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light, which I think was really, really important.

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They saw a lot.

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There's more to this guy than just simply a coach.

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He's got this academic and intellectual side that he wants to pursue and wants to share

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with us.

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And I think it did add a certain level of depth in those relationships.

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And they got a chance to know me.

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I got a chance to know them a little bit better through those shared experiences.

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And so I think the windfall, I mean, sure, there were some hard moments and, you know,

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you certainly get a little bit tired doing it, but I think the windfall certainly outweighed

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any of the deficits that came along with it.

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Yeah, no, that's really interesting.

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OK, so let's go back to when you started at Innocent.

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So back when you started, Kenyon was, you know, this unstoppable powerhouse.

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They were they were dominating everything, men's side, women's side.

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And then in 2011, your men's team actually snapped Kenyon's 31 year title streak, which

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crazy enough, that was a streak that you helped start when you swam at Kenyon.

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So when you started, did you have a master plan for how you were going to build your

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program, you know, one that could actually win a national title?

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Or did that plan just kind of evolve over time?

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Well, you know, as I as I tell my team, I came in with a four year plan and I'm still

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working on it.

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You know, so I had I mean, I think even as an undergrad, having having been a swimmer

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at Kenyon and having competed against Denison for four years, even as a student athlete,

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I recognized and saw the potential that a place like Denison had for developing a quality

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swimming and diving program.

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And so when the opportunity for me to come to Denison availed itself, you know, I was

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quick to jump on it just simply because I saw the potential of it.

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I don't think I had a very firm grasp of all the challenges that were going to come my

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way.

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I don't think anybody does until you get into the weeds.

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But yeah, I had I had a vision that we could turn Denison into something special.

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It was a slow evolution.

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I mean, if I had it my way, you know, the women won in 2001, men in 2011, those are

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like my 13th in my 23rd years here.

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I would if it was my way, I wouldn't have taken that long.

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But you know, that's how things go.

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But I think for me to be able to get traction on the vision here, I had to I had to have

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a really good understanding what the university's strengths and weaknesses were and how I could

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how I could shape what we're trying to do here to take advantage of what Denison had

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to offer.

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And that just takes time.

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I mean, if if anything, you know, my my my old man just used to call me stubborn just

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simply because he's like, you know, you just won't let go of this vision.

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And I think there's a certain amount of that.

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I don't think anybody would ever accuse me of being lazy or easily frustrated because,

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you know, the reality is, you know, swimming, swimming in Kenyon's shadow for so long.

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I mean, I can make the argument nobody's finished second place more than I have, you know, but

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but it also just took a long time for us to kind of chip away at that mystique, to chip

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away at that that formidable shadow that they did cast.

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But I also knew if we were close to them, that was the best that was the best way to

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compete.

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I mean, it would have been the best if we're, you know, you know, if if we tried to share

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the yard with the big dog.

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And I think I think it did prove to be true.

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It just took a little longer than I might have wanted it to.

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So when you when you started, was was recruiting the biggest challenge, you know, just getting

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getting those athletes to Denison or was it, you know, getting a staff together?

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What were some of the bigger challenges early on that you slowly chipped away at?

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Well, you know, I I don't think I would have articulated this as a twenty seven year old.

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But, you know, culture trumps strategy every time.

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And I think for me, the most important piece was creating a team culture that would that

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would, I think, provide us with the resources to be competitive at the highest levels.

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It took a long time to get there.

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And I think the one thing, especially when we're talking about college, you know, every

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every college university has a certain gravitational pull within its student culture.

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And then each athletic team, I think, has a similar has a gravitational pull to.

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And I think the most successful programs, ultimately, those gravitational pulls are

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pulling everybody along in the same direction where things become more challenging is when

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a coach or a program finds itself in a position where the cultural vector is a little bit

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different than maybe the university's vector.

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And so I think for a long time, it was trying to figure out exactly where the university

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was going and how I could best leverage those leverage that culture to where we could build

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a program here.

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And quite honestly, it wasn't always particularly well aligned.

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It took us a while to get better alignment.

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But I think we're there now institutionally.

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I think we're you know, I think the swimming and diving program culture aligns itself really

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well now with university culture.

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That was probably the biggest challenge.

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I was just getting those cultural pieces in place.

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And I had a fascinating conversation with Mark Schubert my very first year here at Denison

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having to run into him at a state meet.

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As it turns out, we're recruiting the exact same person here.

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Schubert coaching at USC.

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And here I am a first year coach at Denison.

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And we're coaching this.

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I'm coaching this young lady, a backstroker from Ohio.

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And I won't mention names or anything like that.

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But Mark and I happen to be sitting at the Ohio High School State Meet next to each other.

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And we introduced each other and we started sharing stories.

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And the question came up because I think he was pretty new at USC at this time was how

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long does it take to change team culture within Division 1 and Division 3?

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And he thought it would take about four years at a D1 level to shift the culture as a result

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of having scholarship money available.

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But maybe in a D3 setting it would take maybe twice as long.

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That was his conclusion.

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He goes, Greg, I think this is going to take you twice as long as it would me simply because

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you don't have that scholarship leverage to shape your team in the same way.

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And I do think there's probably some truth to that.

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I mean, again, it took me a little longer to get where I wanted to.

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But I think we eventually got there.

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But having said all that, there's no finish line because that cultural thing just keeps

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shifting all the time.

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I think it's the same whether you're a coach on a sports team or you're leading a team

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in the business world or starting a company.

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The one thing that I've learned is that you can't create a culture.

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Culture happens.

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You can create culture norms, right?

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And you can set vectors in place.

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But ultimately, it's a multivariable problem.

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And the culture will happen.

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And it's up to you to try to kind of push it along the way.

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And it's a really complicated problem.

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And it does take a while.

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It's a very complex issue.

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And I think too often we get caught up in the X's and O's and the details when in fact,

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there's much bigger issues influencing your team.

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I mean, one of the things I'm grateful for now is that when you're fighting that cultural

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battle, you can write the greatest workout ever.

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But if you don't have the right people implementing, it doesn't matter how good that workout is.

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Conversely, if you've got the right culture in place or things are moving in the right

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direction, you can write a mediocre workout.

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And the best people will turn that into gold.

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And so that's why cultural influences are so important.

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And we hammer it here.

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I mean, we are very intentional about it so much that we went out and hired our own culture

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coach here.

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We have a director of team culture development, a young lady who swam for me here back in

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2001.

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Then she went on to get her PhD and work in the corporate world for a long time.

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And she came back to central Ohio and we hired her to do the same sorts of things here that

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she was doing in the corporate world.

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And probably one of the best things we've ever done.

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Yeah.

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If you have a great culture, it really cultivates motivation.

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And again, corporate world, sports world doesn't matter, right?

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If you have motivated, driven people, they do amazing things.

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But if you have people that are frustrated, they don't feel like they have a place, it

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doesn't work.

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It doesn't matter what kind of all sorts you have.

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And that's really interesting.

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You have someone that's focused on the culture piece because I think that's really smart.

233
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,200
Yeah.

234
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,920
Well, again, we've been doing it for a while now and it's probably one of the more important

235
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,160
steps we took in the evolution of the program.

236
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It helped get all that energy and all those, let's say the culture vectors all pointed

237
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in the right direction.

238
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We've got much better alignment now than we ever have.

239
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,080
Yeah.

240
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,080
Okay.

241
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,760
So you've got this incredible pool, the Trumbull Aquatic Center, right?

242
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,880
It's been called one of the best pools in the country.

243
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,800
Not just D3, but all divisions across country, right?

244
00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,680
Do facilities like that, do they make a big difference in recruiting and performance or

245
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,160
is it more just kind of a cherry on top thing?

246
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,000
Yeah, it's a great question.

247
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:13,520
I think what most parents, what most prospective students and families are looking for is I

248
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:19,280
think they're looking for a certain energy and indication that the programs are evolving

249
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:20,280
and developing.

250
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,480
And we had the old six-lane 25-yard pool at the Gregory and the auditorium.

251
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,320
I coached in that facility for 25 years and it had its issues.

252
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,240
We had all sorts of mechanical and physical plant issues with that.

253
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,120
We were able to build some championship teams out of that program.

254
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:43,920
But at the same time, it also at times felt like a bit of an anchor simply because it

255
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,160
was holding us back.

256
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:52,200
And when we did build the new facility, I think in the public's mind, I was like, oh,

257
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Denison's investing in swimming now.

258
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This is something that's important.

259
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,000
It was a reflection of the university's motivation and intent.

260
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:09,040
And from that standpoint, I think it energized the way people view Denison.

261
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,240
It's like, wow, OK, they've got some forward thinking going on there.

262
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,280
And it's reflected in this brand new facility that they built.

263
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,680
Yeah, years ago, I had a parent sitting beside me at a meet.

264
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,280
And he pulls his phone out and he says, my son visited Kenyon, but I drove over to Denison.

265
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,440
And he starts showing me all these pictures of the pool.

266
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,960
And he was just so impressed by the pool.

267
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,480
And it's amazing.

268
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,800
And it's got to be a lot of fun to practice and to compete there.

269
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,440
Well, I remember talking to Jack Barley down in Georgia because, you know, Jack, when I

270
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,280
got when I got so we had all sorts of issues and I was talking to Jack about his old pool

271
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,680
and I remember him sharing stories because, yeah, when we have recruits on campus, I don't

272
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,440
even take him to the pool to see it anymore.

273
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,840
It's so bad.

274
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,160
And I said, well, Jack, I would love nothing more than to get a brand new facility.

275
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,280
And he goes, Greg, be careful what you ask for on that one, because it will it will create

276
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,880
problems that you could never expect.

277
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,040
And I remember one of the one of the big challenges that we had because we used to run double

278
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,040
workouts every afternoon in the old facility simply because we couldn't get our athletes

279
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,040
through.

280
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,880
Then all of a sudden, you know, you're offered instead of six lanes, you got 21 lanes to

281
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,200
work with.

282
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,640
And instead of having a smaller crew of 30 in the pool that you're working with, all

283
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,520
of a sudden, you've got 60 plus athletes in the pool.

284
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,920
And the issues that that that dynamic created were something I would never have guessed.

285
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:28,920
I'm just excited.

286
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,920
OK, I got I don't have to be on deck for an extra three hours every afternoon.

287
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,040
But it did change the workout dynamics in a very in a very unexpected way for me.

288
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,800
And I remember calling Jack after like a week of it.

289
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,320
And I said, yeah, you're exactly right.

290
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,320
Yep.

291
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920
This is this is this has presented some headaches and learning curves.

292
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,440
But we figured it out by now, though.

293
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,360
But it's it's great coming to work every day to have that kind of facility.

294
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:52,680
And you just feel good about it.

295
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,680
It feels good.

296
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,280
Yeah, it probably doesn't hurt with recruiting because you always get these rave reviews

297
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,080
coming out of visits, you know, for the kids that visit Dennis and so.

298
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,560
Well, it's a beautiful pool.

299
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,840
And I and I and I, you know, we stole as many good ideas from a lot of the facilities around

300
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,960
that we found and probably the one thing that I enjoy the most.

301
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,880
And I was actually taking pictures of it this morning and practices the the the windows

302
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,720
with some of the windows faced east.

303
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,960
So we get the sunrise in the morning and then the other side of the pool faces west and

304
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:30,200
we've got windows so we get the sun sun sunsets at night and the pool just lights up and all

305
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:31,200
the all the great colors.

306
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,760
And this morning we had this wonderful pinkish and orange shoe coming through the facility

307
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,000
windows and it was just gorgeous.

308
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,240
And all the colors were flying this morning.

309
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,640
It made it made a very special morning for us.

310
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,640
Oh, that's awesome.

311
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:45,640
Yeah.

312
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:46,640
All right.

313
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,040
Let's let's let's let's go back to recruiting for a minute.

314
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,800
So, you know, when you're recruiting, you're going after some who are also getting hit

315
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,880
up by some some really good D1 programs.

316
00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,600
And a lot of these kids, I see this with all of these athletes that we work with today.

317
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,880
So many of them are just stuck in this.

318
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,960
I have to go D1 mindset, you know, just kind of tunnel vision, right?

319
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:14,040
You know, even though the top end of D3 swimming is crazy fast, what do you say to them to

320
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,560
shift their perspective?

321
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,800
How do you sell them on Denison and your program?

322
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,560
Well, I think for a student athlete to be successful here at Denison specifically, you

323
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,120
know, we spend up we spend a lot of time just talking about the academic opportunities that

324
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:36,440
come here that I think for us in many ways, the academic experience here and especially

325
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:43,280
how our students can connect with faculty members and also utilize Denison's year round

326
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:50,520
internship program, I think is a in many cases a tiebreaker for a lot of when we go up against

327
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:57,160
some of these other schools, our proximity to Columbus, Ohio, which is now the 14th largest

328
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,360
city in the United States.

329
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:07,800
And the resourcing that the university has access there in the form of internships and

330
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:13,440
scheduling opportunities and field experience has been great.

331
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,720
I mean, the university access is Columbus regularly, we have shuttles that run our students

332
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,880
in and out of the city regularly, you know, we're only 25 minutes from downtown.

333
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,920
So for us, it's not really a swimming argument so much as an academic experience and the

334
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,800
fact that we can we can talk about smaller classrooms and personalized academic experiences

335
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:40,720
and building important relationships with professors and faculty members and administrators.

336
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,040
One of one of our big selling points is that I think we may have the only college president

337
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:51,200
that comes to every prelim and final session of both conference and national championships.

338
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,200
I mean, yeah, President Weinberg is probably our greatest fan.

339
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,480
He doesn't miss a session at either conference or nationals.

340
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,880
I've talked to peers at D1, D2 and D3, and they're like, you got to be kidding me.

341
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:09,240
And then on top of it, I'll say, well, yeah, Adam makes a point of being at all of our

342
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,640
sessions and they're like, wait, you're on a first name basis with the president of the

343
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:14,640
university.

344
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:15,640
I'm like, I sure am.

345
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,760
You know, we sit down and have lemonade or a glass of wine at least twice a year just

346
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,080
to talk about the state of the college and to talk about the state of the program.

347
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:29,400
And so for us, the argument is really quite simple when you look at the academic opportunities

348
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:35,560
that Denison avails to its students on top of providing, I think, a quality swimming

349
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,920
program in which, you know, and I think, you know, we've been using, you know, been using

350
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:46,080
your software program to point out to student athletes how our athletes are improving at

351
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,640
the highest levels compared to no matter what division we're talking about, whether we're

352
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,000
talking about D1, D2 or D3, Denison swimmers tend to improve more than just about anybody

353
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000
else.

354
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,680
And, you know, the new facility behind us, you know, with the new 50 meter facility,

355
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,520
what that's done for us internationally has been huge because, you know, we're starting

356
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,880
to get kids to Olympic trials and we can train seriously for, for, for meets that might lie

357
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,460
outside the NCAA season, you know, you know, obviously staying within NCAA rules.

358
00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:20,700
But you know, I think that that that in and of itself, I think, makes us a more attractive

359
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:26,680
option for the serious swimmer who's got aspirations to swim beyond the NCAA season.

360
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,360
Yeah, we say this all the time.

361
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:36,480
We, you know, you have some of the best coaching staffs are not in power for.

362
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:37,480
Right.

363
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,840
And I think that sometimes that message goes in one ear and out the other.

364
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,480
And so that's why we have the data to back it up.

365
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,360
And you have done a phenomenal job with your program.

366
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:53,960
And I think that that that history of success has it has it made it easier to recruit?

367
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,480
I mean, you've done this for 38 years now, right?

368
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,320
You've had this history of national titles.

369
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,960
You've seen so much development coming out of these swimmers.

370
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:07,200
Does it get a little easier each year or is each year still just sort of that same recruiting

371
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,200
struggle?

372
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,680
Well, it doesn't get easier.

373
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,200
I can tell you that just simply because there's some the market is changing so quickly, especially

374
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:20,720
with the transfer portal and NIL money and the grant house settlement and all those things

375
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,000
are impacting it.

376
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,840
And it's such a moving landscape right now.

377
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,920
And you know, and there's there's new legislature being considered by the NCAA, which is, you

378
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:36,000
know, they're talking about granting five years of eligibility.

379
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,240
And what does that mean for a four year college, residential college that doesn't have grad

380
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,240
programs?

381
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:48,720
It's about how the landscape will change if also in that fifth year is granted.

382
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,920
And so there's the market's changing quickly.

383
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,680
And there's there's but I do think it helps to have the reputation of developing kids

384
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:06,200
and to providing them with a environment where they can excel academically as well as athletically.

385
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,000
You know, my heartfelt belief is, is just because you happen to choose an academically

386
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,840
centered institution in central Ohio, that shouldn't preclude you from pursuing your

387
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,280
swimming dreams to the nth degree.

388
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,680
And we've been fortunate, you know, like some other D3 schools, we've had kids swim internationally,

389
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,080
we've had an Olympian here.

390
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,360
And you know, we've had kids compete at world championships and other major international

391
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:34,160
meets and all these kids had to improve substantially to get there.

392
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,280
At the same time, though, they're they're being provided with a world class education.

393
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,200
And I think that's what we're trying to provide with our kids.

394
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,840
And you know, you know, Denison's not for everybody, but it is for the person that wants

395
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,560
to have a really, I think, intimate experience in their academic and swimming experience.

396
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,720
That's kind of what we're looking for.

397
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:58,280
You know, when you when you told me the president attends every meet, that that that is such

398
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,040
a big important data point, because, you know, everything about the college sports right

399
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,280
now, everything's wild right now.

400
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,280
Right.

401
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,280
Everything's changing.

402
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,280
There's so much fear and certainty and doubt.

403
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:14,440
There's so much fun to have a program where the president actually takes an interest in

404
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,440
your sport.

405
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,440
Yeah.

406
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,440
Wow.

407
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,440
That's big.

408
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,920
I mean, that is really that is not typical at all.

409
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,280
And that's a huge recruiting bullet point.

410
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,200
Well, I think it is huge.

411
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,800
And I mean, and and he knows all of our swimmers by name.

412
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,800
He was he was not a swimmer.

413
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,400
He was an ice hockey player, actually, in college.

414
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,840
I went to a small liberal arts school, much like Denison.

415
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,600
He went to a NASCAR.

416
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,600
We he apologizes for that chronically.

417
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,400
We haven't gone to a NASCAR.

418
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,680
But you know, I think I was I was on part of the interview committee that interviewed

419
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,520
President Weinberg when when he took the job.

420
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,280
And one of the things that stood out to me and I think that this is true about what we're

421
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,280
trying to do here.

422
00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:00,160
I remember when we when we lined up all the other candidates who were vying for the president's

423
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,560
position here at Denison, he was the only candidate who talked about athletics as co-curricular

424
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,120
not extracurricular.

425
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:16,760
He looks at what we do on the playing foot field, on the courts, in the in the pool as

426
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,680
a serious part of the student experience and education.

427
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,100
And he values this at a very profound level.

428
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,200
And Adam has family that that competes.

429
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,440
I mean, he comes from a very athletic, very intellectual family.

430
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:40,400
He sees the value of what we do here and is quick to congratulate and quick to support.

431
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,400
We're very, very fortunate.

432
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,360
Like I said, I think it's a huge bullet point for us to know that the president is going

433
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:50,240
to be there and he knows our kids and he knows what a good performance looks like.

434
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:56,160
And it's not, you know, in all the years Adam's been here, if I think now 12 years, I think

435
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,960
this is his 12th year.

436
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,800
I've never felt pressure to have him to perform either.

437
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:07,080
It's just support and it's all about process and it's all about helping the young men and

438
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,760
young women in our program move down the road towards adulthood so that they can be, you

439
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,640
know, graduated with a quality degree and be set up for a great future afterwards.

440
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,160
But I've never felt the pressure to win, win, lose or draw.

441
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,000
It's always been positive.

442
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:30,000
So I like that term co-curricular because, you know, the data backs this up.

443
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:37,800
Being an NCAA athlete is a huge boost to your career, the rest of your career.

444
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,560
You know, you could have swam 40 years ago and people will still say, did you swim at

445
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Syracuse?

446
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,840
You know, I mean, that's something Benjamin Tells me all the time.

447
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,200
He'll say, people still come up to me and talk about swimming at Syracuse.

448
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,880
Syracuse has had a program in how long?

449
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,240
Decades, right?

450
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,400
And so, you know, that opens opportunities for you when you're getting a job, when you're

451
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,040
going to graduate school and for the parents that are on the fence, you know, should I

452
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,640
really, should I encourage my kid to swim in college or not?

453
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:15,320
Yes, yes, if they enjoy it, if they love the sport, it is co-curricular.

454
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,080
It is not extracurricular.

455
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,020
And if you have that drive to compete in a sport while doing the academics, the social

456
00:28:22,020 --> 00:28:27,360
and all just the change in life, that speaks wonders to you on your resume and that will

457
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:28,360
follow you forever.

458
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,360
And I love that term.

459
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:34,080
Yeah, I remember when I was sitting in the room when he was talking about that.

460
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:40,120
I'm like, okay, this guy has already distinguished athletics from all the other candidates and

461
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,120
he gets it.

462
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Clearly, he gets it.

463
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,560
And like I said, he was, you know, he was, as he said, he was a good hockey player, not

464
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,000
a great hockey player.

465
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,720
But like I said, just very fortunate to have him in there.

466
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,520
And then again, as things flow downhill, and you know, when you have a president who's

467
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:04,120
on board, who values what we're doing here athletically in this and much in the same

468
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,640
way that what we're experiencing academically, boy, that just, that just, you know, that

469
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,280
just affirms what our kids are going through in the most positive sort of way.

470
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,760
You know, it validates the path that they've chosen.

471
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:15,760
Yep.

472
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,120
Okay, so you mentioned Grant House Settlement, and all these things are changing, right?

473
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,120
You know, this question is coming.

474
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,600
So, so, you know, how do you think all of these changes are going to affect swimming

475
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,400
in college at the D3 level?

476
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:34,520
And specifically, you know, what are the changes coming to Denison from this?

477
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,080
That's the million dollar question.

478
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,040
And I wish I had a better handle on it.

479
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,680
I mean, I, you know, I, you know, things are changing and I'm not an attorney and I don't

480
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,200
understand all the dynamics with the, with Grant Settlement and everything like that.

481
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:55,440
But what we do see is an influx of money coming into the sport, much of which is regulated,

482
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,200
some of which is not.

483
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:03,240
What that looks like, you know, I talked to some of my, my colleagues who are in D1 who

484
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:09,040
are dealing with serious NIL money, who they are not only getting athletes, but losing

485
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,040
athletes.

486
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:15,880
It's, it's turned into the wild, wild west and the winter is the highest bidder typically.

487
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,680
And all you have to do is just follow these kids and where they end up landing.

488
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:27,720
And you know, I don't know what the implications are for D3.

489
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,840
I think NIL money will find its way down here, I think, in time.

490
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,600
It may already be present in some cases in some small ways, but, you know, obviously

491
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,120
we're not dealing with the $10 million quarterback, you know, who's going to sign, you know, that

492
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,120
kind of thing.

493
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,520
But, you know, we're, you know, Ohio State is just down the road from us and we see the

494
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,040
impact that their NIL money had on their football program.

495
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,800
And you know, conversations with Bill Dorenkot at Ohio State this fall was telling me about

496
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:00,440
how the NIL money is impacting what he's trying to do and, you know, squad size limitations

497
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,580
and things like that.

498
00:31:01,580 --> 00:31:06,000
I just don't know what that's going to look like in D3 at this point, but I do expect,

499
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,400
I do anticipate that NIL money will come our way.

500
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,960
It will be a factor if it's not already.

501
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:20,920
And I would think that Denison wanting to remain competitive will adapt to those changing

502
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,920
circumstances.

503
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,480
Will we take the lead on that?

504
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,480
I don't know.

505
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,920
I think, you know, I think it's a lot of wait and see right now and trying to figure out

506
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:34,200
exactly what the implications are, no matter how it goes.

507
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,040
So yeah, I mean, I wish my crystal ball was clear.

508
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,200
It's just really murky right now.

509
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:47,760
When we look at swimming coaches as a profession, we always like to look at development.

510
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,080
You know, it's a key indicator of the success of a coach is how well you can develop athletes.

511
00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:00,000
If we look at football, we look at it a little differently in a different lens because development,

512
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,520
okay, maybe, but now more than ever, a coach at a powerful level, I don't think we'll

513
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:12,120
have to worry about developing as much as they will, for lack of a better term, buying

514
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,600
the talent, identifying and buying.

515
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,680
And so it's and we're seeing this with kids that, you know, we've helped at the football

516
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:21,680
level.

517
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,280
You know, it's so many of these programs that are like, no, I have to win right now.

518
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,840
I'm transfer portal only.

519
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,520
If you're in high school, unless you are, you know, insert big name here, right, you're

520
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:40,240
probably you probably need to, you know, go, go, you know, earn your playing time at a

521
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,560
mid major and then move on up.

522
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,840
But I don't think that's going to happen at the swimming level, at least not for the majority

523
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,520
of schools.

524
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:54,040
And I think development will still be a primary indicator of the success of a coaching staff

525
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,800
at the swimming level.

526
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,800
I hope you're right.

527
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,800
I really hope you're right.

528
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,120
I hope we don't lose track of that altogether.

529
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,080
I know I just I remember talking to a couple of there.

530
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:09,760
You know, there was a there was a pretty there was a big transfer this past spring with one

531
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,320
of the big D1 guys and all the all the winds were blowing him in one direction.

532
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,160
So I called the coach of the school that is and I'm like, are you going to it looks like

533
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,600
you're going to get so and so and he goes, no, not getting so and so the winds winds

534
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:25,960
are turning the other direction.

535
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,560
I said, well, what what happened there?

536
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,080
And he goes, well, it just got down to the money and we just we just got outbid.

537
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:38,040
And it was like and I felt first I felt really bad for the coach who lost the swimmer initially

538
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,680
because it was like, oh, man, you know, you brought this kid along.

539
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,640
I mean, this kid developed under your tutelage under your watch.

540
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,960
And then he ran to the next highest bidder and then he ran to the next highest bidder.

541
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:56,160
And it was like, you know, and I just, you know, again, you know, I it's frustrating.

542
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,320
And I think for a lot of people, you know, coaches in particular, because I do think

543
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,600
I think the good coaches are invested in the relationship and invested in the swimmer.

544
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:12,080
And it's I think our hearts are easily broken when we see kids break away from that.

545
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,240
And you can't blame the kids.

546
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:17,440
I mean, they're trying to take care of family in many cases and trying to create opportunity

547
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,440
for themselves.

548
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,080
But, you know, for most of the good coaches are invested in the relationship to begin

549
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,640
with and it's not necessarily a business transactional dynamic.

550
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:33,280
And I think swimming is also a different kind of sport because coaches have their own training

551
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,280
philosophies.

552
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,440
You have your secret sauce.

553
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,280
Athletes acclimate to that training environment.

554
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:45,080
And you can't if you're flipping coaches every year, you're you're putting, you know, a big

555
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,840
challenge roadblock right right in your way toward development.

556
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,200
And so to that end, you know, I think the transfer portal, I'm really curious how the

557
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,320
transfer portal is going to go moving forward, given the fact that you don't have to sit

558
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:05,240
out a year, given the fact that you can get NIL money for you transfer portal.

559
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,840
Do you plan on using it more or do you do you have a strong preference on building your

560
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,800
athletes from high school on?

561
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,120
Well, I you know, I have no problem with transfers.

562
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,600
I mean, the university has been pretty, pretty transparent about it.

563
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,480
Our president loves transfers, which is unlike his predecessor.

564
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,160
His predecessor was not as big a fan of transfers, but our current president is a big fan of

565
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,160
it.

566
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,520
And, you know, we're going to exercise a transfer portal.

567
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,440
I mean, my coaching staff boards over that daily.

568
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,440
We look for it and we try to find that one.

569
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,320
We've had a couple of transfers here over the years.

570
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,960
Ultimately, you know, but you know, we prefer I can't say I have a preference for the Q2

571
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,920
because it comes in for four years and finishes with us.

572
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,960
I mean, you have a little bit more time to develop that relationship.

573
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,680
I think there's opportunities there.

574
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,720
But you know, a transfer student, you know, is also generally a more mature student.

575
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:05,280
They're more seasoned.

576
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,440
There's a different kind of learning curve when they arrive.

577
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,240
And can we help them through that?

578
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:13,880
So there are opportunities for us to, you know, connect with them.

579
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,920
But yeah, we're going to we're going to we're going to leverage the transfer portal as much

580
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,600
as we possibly can, just in large part to stay stay competitive, because that there's

581
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,720
there's a lot of good swimmers out there and there's a lot of good swimmers.

582
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:29,320
I mean, unfortunately, a lot of these power fours are having to scale down their roster

583
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,320
sizes.

584
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,520
So a lot of the kids who were promised spots just a year or two ago, all of a sudden are

585
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,760
finding that that opportunity is no longer available.

586
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,120
And so if we can provide if we can provide a quality student athlete with an opportunity

587
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,040
here, then I'm OK with that.

588
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,040
So yeah.

589
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,040
Yeah.

590
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,040
Roster limits are going to hit.

591
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,040
I don't know that we know exactly what that's going to look like.

592
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,560
It seems to be a little bit in flux.

593
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,560
You know, we've heard the Big Ten is settling at 30 men.

594
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,560
I don't know where the SEC is going to land.

595
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,560
We've heard 22.

596
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,560
We've heard 30.

597
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,000
I don't know where it's going to be in the end at ACC.

598
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,680
The same way I don't know exactly.

599
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,840
It sounds like they're going to be around 30.

600
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:16,640
But the the teams that were carrying 40 and, you know, 40 to 45 men, that yeah, there's

601
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,880
been some pain.

602
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:18,880
There's been some.

603
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,320
Yeah, I mean, we're even we had a we had a we had a swimmer reach out to us who had made

604
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:30,320
a commitment to one of the power force as a junior and notable notable swimmers, notable

605
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,720
talent and then got the phone call to said, you know, we can't you know, that spot we

606
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:37,080
offered you a year ago is no longer available.

607
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,240
And you know, the kid was heartbroken and also he has to start the college search all

608
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:42,240
over again.

609
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:43,920
And you know, you feel bad for him.

610
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:51,200
Yeah, so, you know, I it's again, I think the wild, wild west is probably the best descriptor,

611
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,680
you know, of what's going on right now.

612
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,960
And I don't think anybody's I think I think basically the in some in some cases, it feels

613
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,600
like the the the tail's wagging the dog right now.

614
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,320
I'm not always sure if this is all good.

615
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,640
Yeah, I think it's like everything else.

616
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:05,640
It'll be shades of gray.

617
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,400
There'll be good parts and there'll be better parts.

618
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:14,400
But I don't I have I've spent a lot of time trying to ease fear that college swimming

619
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,400
is going away.

620
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,440
I do not believe college swim is going away.

621
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,960
I believe power force are going to limit rosters.

622
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,320
I believe there's going to be some pain.

623
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:28,800
But I truly believe that the the the meat and the heart of college swimming are mid

624
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,480
majors, D2 and D3.

625
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,600
This is where the volume of our of our coaches are our kids are.

626
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:42,520
And they're not as drastically impacted by what the grant house settlement will do to

627
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:48,040
the power four programs, who, quite frankly, you know, their budgets are very dependent

628
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,800
on what happens on Saturdays in the fall with football.

629
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:57,120
And and I don't know that that that's not necessarily it is definitely not true for

630
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:03,200
most mid majors, that their entire academic budget is dependent on the success of how

631
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,120
they do in conference at a power four level.

632
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,360
Yeah, I think I think conversations that I'm having casual conversations, nothing.

633
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,760
I'm not I'm not on any committees or anything like that.

634
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,920
I think casual conversations among the coaches is probably what happens if the power four

635
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,440
decides to break away from the NCAA.

636
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:22,440
Right.

637
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,960
That is probably that would be a first Earth mover that would that would shift things tectonically

638
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,440
in a pretty significant way, because D3 is dependent on those contracts, those television

639
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,440
contracts.

640
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,480
I mean, we're you know, I think we get one percent of that television revenue to fund

641
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,360
all of Division three.

642
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,400
And I know Division three has, you know, you know, so as long as power four stay stay in

643
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,520
the game, I think we're going to be OK.

644
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,520
And that's my hope.

645
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:51,800
But I agree with you.

646
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,680
I think college swimming will exist in some form or fashion, hopefully, hopefully at a

647
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,080
a varsity level as opposed to simply a club level.

648
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,400
That's my hope is that we can stay within, you know, stay fully sanctioned by the universities

649
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,040
opposed to being relegated to a club level.

650
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,600
And you know, that's that's I think where we are realistically.

651
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,640
So hopefully we can hold the whole serve on that.

652
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,600
Yeah, I think and I think the biggest challenge right now with the way these changes are shaking

653
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:27,040
out is that you do have you have kiddos, you know, as a report of a quarterback, junior

654
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,720
in high school gets a 10 million dollar deal to go to a power four school.

655
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:32,720
Right.

656
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:35,360
So these are now no longer amateur athletes.

657
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,680
These are professional athletes.

658
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Right.

659
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,720
And you have one organization, the NCAA, that will be managing professional athletes like

660
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:51,880
this one, as well as the majority, 66 percent of NCAA athletes do not play football or basketball.

661
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,840
So the heart of NCAA athletes are not going to be professionals.

662
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:02,560
And that is a weird dynamic now to have to govern what happens to the four or five million

663
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:09,640
dollar quarterback transfer, as well as, you know, the rower or the wrestler or the gymnast.

664
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,120
And I think that I don't know how well equipped the NCAA is to handle that balance right now.

665
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,240
Yeah, it's you know, we're experiencing this on a family level.

666
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:25,320
Our youngest of six sons is playing junior hockey up in Canada right now.

667
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,720
And he's a pretty good hockey player.

668
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:32,560
And I think that there's probably some place for him to play at some point.

669
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:38,080
But when the NCAA allowed the CHL, the Canadian hockey, these are paid players now to come

670
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,520
down and are eligible to compete in the NCAA.

671
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,600
All those spots that were available for the junior amateurs are now being taken up by

672
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,180
these kids have been paid.

673
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:51,040
So there's I mean, it's hitting on it's hitting on a lot of different levels with a lot of

674
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,680
different sports and how it how it's going to be wrangled in or if it's going to be wrangled

675
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,400
in at all, it's going to be interesting.

676
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,440
But because there's always there's only so many spots and only so much money out there.

677
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,440
So we'll see.

678
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,440
See how it plays out.

679
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,440
Yep.

680
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,440
Yep.

681
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:07,880
OK, let's let's shift to to training.

682
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,640
So we talked about this a little bit.

683
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,900
But so you've been doing this for almost 40 years.

684
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:17,240
So has your as you're developing these athletes, you're staying on top, you're winning national

685
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:18,240
titles.

686
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:22,680
Has your training philosophy changed much or did you lock in early on in your career

687
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,440
on what works and how much do you adapt to the new science and the trends that are happening

688
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,440
in swimming?

689
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,900
Well, I think I think we figured out what works.

690
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,840
I think how we how we get it to work has changed radically.

691
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,680
Obviously, the science of swimming has changed quite a bit.

692
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,240
I'm a product of the 60s and 70s and early 80s.

693
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:48,400
My own training, you know, the the old days were, you know, the you know, the twenty thousand

694
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,880
meter days, you know, the Mission Viejo days and things like that.

695
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,240
We all heard the horror stories come out out of Schubert's program.

696
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,520
And but, you know, the science has changed.

697
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,200
And as a physiologist, I think I'm obligated to try to keep up on the science as best I

698
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:08,520
possibly can talk to coaches and professionals out there who know a lot more about the sport

699
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:16,480
than I do and witness and ask questions and observe, you know, how things are getting

700
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:17,480
done.

701
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,080
But yeah, it was interesting.

702
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,080
You asked this question.

703
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,560
I had a couple of the guys in my office the other day and I keep I keep all my workouts.

704
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,160
I've had workouts from when I was coaching club in high school back in the 1980s.

705
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,720
And one of the guys got into the workouts and they're looking at these things is like,

706
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,040
coach, here's a really good set.

707
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,040
Why don't we ever do this?

708
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,120
And I'm like, because it would kill you.

709
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,440
You wouldn't survive that set.

710
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,120
You know, and I look back, you know, I spent some time up at Club Wolverine with their

711
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,680
band check when he was, you know, dealing with, you know, coaching Carlton Bruner and,

712
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,160
you know, he had Dolan and Melchow and Kerry Hale.

713
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,200
And I look at the volume of training that those that they're putting out there compared

714
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,200
to what we're doing now.

715
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,480
And it's yeah, the science has changed.

716
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:02,880
I don't think the kids have changed.

717
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,120
I just think we're getting smarter at what we're doing.

718
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:11,880
And I think we have a much better understanding is to how how rest and recovery factor in

719
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:12,880
to the sport.

720
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,480
You know, I thought Dave Marsh said it really well, you know, we used to train to train,

721
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,240
now we train to race.

722
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:24,160
And I think that was a significant shift in people's paradigms and mindsets.

723
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,360
And so I think, you know, we're training differently than we used to.

724
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,840
And I think we're getting more out of what we do.

725
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,000
And it's not only just a physiologically.

726
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,800
I think the other piece you got to take into account is the environmental changes that

727
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,320
are I mean, I think the kids are exposed to different stresses now than they did maybe

728
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:43,800
10, 15 years ago.

729
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,280
You know, the post covid era has been particularly challenging for a lot of our young people

730
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,880
and and making sure that you're tuned in to that and making sure that you're taking emotional

731
00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:01,640
and mental health care is is, you know, seriously, just like you would, you know, you know, whether

732
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,520
or not you're training their bodies properly.

733
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,600
So I think I think it's multifaceted.

734
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,600
I think if you're going to be a good coach, you've got to be tuned in to all that.

735
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:14,920
I mean, my own personal opinion is that peak performance is a perfect storm between body,

736
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,360
mind and heart.

737
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,400
And you've got to have all those things lined up and how we get those things lined up is

738
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,620
is is unique to each athlete.

739
00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:25,480
But I do think there's certain rules that you carry.

740
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,040
And I mean, I think if you want to be a good swimmer, you obviously have to have really

741
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,040
good technique.

742
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,920
You got to have adequate aerobic capacity.

743
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,760
You got to have adequate aerobic power and you've got to have some speed and and how

744
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,800
to strengthen all those things come in.

745
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,160
Now, how we how we get to those things, I think, is maybe changed a little bit over

746
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,600
the last decade or a couple of decades.

747
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,400
But I think that's the fun part of our job is that the sport does keep changing.

748
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,440
And that's what keeps coming back, bringing you back every year.

749
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:52,440
Yeah.

750
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:58,680
A big part of our research at Swimintel has been looking at how clubs train because, you

751
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,440
know, obviously we have hundreds of thousands of kids at the club level.

752
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,120
And you know this because, you know, you've seen what we do and you use what we do.

753
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:13,440
But, you know, it's it's understanding how those swimmers that you're recruiting have

754
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:20,680
been training through high school and how that will correlate to their success at, you

755
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,620
know, your program and other programs as well.

756
00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:28,240
And you know, the things that we have seen and we've absolutely seen a shift in philosophy

757
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:35,720
across a lot of clubs, but at the same time, a lot of stubbornness and hubris to keep doing,

758
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:38,000
you know, you know, twenty thousand yard days.

759
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,000
Right.

760
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,880
So we see that and some things that that that we have noticed and they're not just becoming

761
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:44,880
anecdotal.

762
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:45,880
You're starting to see a trend.

763
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,340
You know, some of the clubs that get a lot out of their swimmers when they're young,

764
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:54,480
but they're but they're throwing them into ten thousand yard days at the age of twelve

765
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:55,480
and thirteen.

766
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,080
We're seeing more burnout by the time they get to the college level.

767
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,200
And that goes to your point, right.

768
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,640
It's about it's not just about physically.

769
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:02,640
Can I do it?

770
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:03,960
It's mentally as well.

771
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,840
So we do see some burnout.

772
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:11,640
We do see more tendency for injuries when we have our our twelve and thirteen, fourteen

773
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,520
year old swimming ten thousand yards a day.

774
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,040
Yeah, they're getting a lot out of them.

775
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,760
They're getting that gold medal, that silver medal club, USA club designation.

776
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:20,760
But at what cost?

777
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:21,760
Right.

778
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,520
Are they really prepping them for for college?

779
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,240
And you know, and it's not just a yardage game.

780
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:36,440
I've seen some incredible performances coming out of, you know, short yardage clubs.

781
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,440
You don't have to you don't have to swim one hundred one hundreds once a week to get to

782
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,120
get a lot out of these kids or ever.

783
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,120
Yeah, ever.

784
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,200
Please don't ever do that.

785
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,440
So yeah, it's interesting.

786
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:57,920
Do you do you are you looking more at where these kids are coming from and the training

787
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:04,360
that they have they've had through high school and assessing how they'll do it at Denison

788
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:05,720
from that?

789
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:07,800
Or does it really not matter?

790
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,160
You're going to take them and you're going to you're going to change their training and

791
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:12,160
they're going to have that same.

792
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,240
Well, yeah, I think there are there are, you know, there are some clubs in high schools

793
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,440
out there, I think, that do a really, really good job of setting their kids up for the

794
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,520
college experience.

795
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:29,040
I think that they, you know, they they have the kids mentally, emotionally in a place

796
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,600
where they can take advantage, take the next step.

797
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,120
They've prepared them well.

798
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,680
And there are programs that come to mind.

799
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,960
And there are some other programs that, frankly, I don't think do quite as good a job.

800
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,880
And I think a lot of it is because of the amount of pressure those kids are feeling

801
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,520
in high school and club.

802
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:43,520
It's like perform now.

803
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:49,000
So by the time they get to the college ranks, there's not much gas left in the tank.

804
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,800
And so, yeah, we're aware of some programs that I think have maybe a little bit better

805
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,760
reputation, better track record of sending, you know, of having success among the college

806
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,800
swimmers.

807
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:08,800
And so and then we also, you know, I think in the recruiting process, we're pretty transparent

808
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,680
about our training philosophy and our training schedule.

809
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,680
We have a demanding program.

810
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,080
I think that's why we get results, but I don't think it's foolishly demanding.

811
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,680
I think it's I think it's intelligently demanding.

812
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,160
But I think, you know, we're looking, you know, there's some there's some people, I

813
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,680
think, who come out of very limited backgrounds who will struggle with, let's say, the volume

814
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,120
of workouts that we do here.

815
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,480
And I think we have to vet those candidates carefully, because ultimately, we want to

816
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,800
set the young men and young women up for success.

817
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,860
We don't want to see anybody come in here and just struggle constantly.

818
00:49:43,860 --> 00:49:46,680
And I think that there are better fits out there.

819
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,640
And and we know the kind of student athlete that fits well into our program.

820
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,000
It's generally somebody who's coming from who's been well coached, where there's been

821
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,280
demands, there's been a history of doing doubles.

822
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,300
There's probably a little bit of background in dry land, at least, or an appreciation

823
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:03,920
for dry land training.

824
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,160
But there's a work ethic here.

825
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,640
I mean, we're unapologetic about the kind of work that we do here.

826
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,520
And I do think that that's why we're getting the results that we do.

827
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,360
But a lot of it has to do with best fit.

828
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,480
Not only the camp, not only does the candidate vet us and understand what they're getting

829
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,080
into, but we're vetting them to make sure that we're setting them up for success.

830
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,120
And I think that just takes a lot of dialogue between the coaches and the recruit, the coaches

831
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:33,280
and the parents, the coaches and the swimmers coaches back home just so that we get we get

832
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:34,280
familiar with them.

833
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,640
I mean, we've had swimmers who come into our program who came out of, let's say, pure USRPT

834
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:40,640
programs.

835
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,280
I mean, the 2000 yard maximum workout.

836
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:45,400
That's been a struggle.

837
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,160
That athlete has struggled in our program just simply because we have warm ups that

838
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,860
are longer than that.

839
00:50:52,860 --> 00:50:56,360
And so I would never describe us as a high volume program.

840
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,880
But we do think that there is some volume that needs to be taken, taken care of.

841
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,780
So yeah, it's all about best fit, making sure that you're transparent about expectations

842
00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:06,780
and standards.

843
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:07,780
Yep.

844
00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:09,960
You know, you mentioned you're going to work hard.

845
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:10,960
This is what works.

846
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,520
It's funny because you'll see swimmers that and I've seen this over and over again, you'll

847
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,840
see swimmers where they'll they'll go through training, they'll work hard.

848
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,880
Someone come out of it and go, man, I hurt.

849
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,060
But this feels good.

850
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:24,920
You know, you know, that was hard, but that was fun.

851
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,780
And then you have others that and I've seen this, you know, again, firsthand, you know,

852
00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:31,680
that was hard and I don't feel good.

853
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,720
That was hard and that wasn't fun.

854
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:41,760
And I think that that's, you know, I'm willing to bet that's part of the secret sauce of

855
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:47,260
longevity as a coach is figuring out, you know, how do you how do you get these athletes

856
00:51:47,260 --> 00:51:52,680
to work hard, not burn out, have fun, have a good culture, because you have great retention.

857
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,800
Your retention has been fantastic.

858
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,120
And the athletes that come out of Denison love Denison.

859
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,380
You have evangelists all over the country.

860
00:51:59,380 --> 00:52:01,680
And so I'm curious if you ever thought about that.

861
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,520
Is that part of the you're going to work hard, but you're going to like it.

862
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,200
You're going to like the results kind of philosophy.

863
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,920
Well, I do think so.

864
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,440
I mean, you know, ultimately, I think most of the people coming through the door want

865
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:13,440
to get better.

866
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,440
And I think if that's my job is to help them develop.

867
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,120
But we also weren't like I said, we're not we don't apologize for the fact that we are

868
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:22,120
going to work hard.

869
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,560
And it's not and it's not just it's not hard work for hard work sake.

870
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,160
It's hard work because you're going to get some results and and have some fun along the

871
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,160
way.

872
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,160
And that's part of that that team culture that we talk about.

873
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,880
You know, we're big fans of the concept of synergy here, where the whole is greater than

874
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,920
the sum of the parts, where you start stacking energy.

875
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,160
You know, one single log itself can only contain so much energy.

876
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:49,440
But if you stack 10 with a similar amount of energy than the heat, the heat increases

877
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,040
exponentially, not algebraically.

878
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,040
And that's how we train.

879
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:54,200
That's how we compete here.

880
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,040
And I think that that what that makes a difference.

881
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,600
And we talk about that all the time with the kids that, you know, sometimes we don't let's

882
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:01,600
admit it.

883
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,440
Sometimes we don't have have the juice to do it for ourselves, but we can usually find

884
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,720
the juice to do it for our mates.

885
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,440
All you got to do is look to your right and look to your left and you can find it for

886
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:11,440
somebody else.

887
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:12,800
I mean, that's that's my life as a parent.

888
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:13,800
Right.

889
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:14,800
Sometimes I won't do it for myself.

890
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,000
But if my kid asked me to do anything, I can always find more juice for my kids.

891
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,880
Well, it's no different than being a part of a good team is that you want to be able

892
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,440
to be available and be reliable for your teammates.

893
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,400
And so, you know, the team piece of it, I think, makes it satisfying.

894
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,360
I think it makes it makes everybody feel like they're rooted into something pretty special

895
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:40,440
and adds a lot of energy and excitement to what they're doing and fun, to your point.

896
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:41,440
And that's culture.

897
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:42,440
Right.

898
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,440
That's that's part of culture.

899
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:44,440
Sure.

900
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:45,440
It is.

901
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,120
OK, so you mentioned you mentioned something you mentioned training, not training for training

902
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,040
sake, but training for racing.

903
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,220
And I love I'm fascinated.

904
00:53:54,220 --> 00:53:58,640
We're doing the research on, you know, in season development, what motivates the kids?

905
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Of course, you know, this question is coming about dual meets, you know, so dual meets

906
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,560
are part of your in season assessment.

907
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,120
What's your take on dual meets?

908
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,320
Do you like the way they are right now?

909
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,680
Do you think do you think swimming needs to shake things up and make them more exciting

910
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:16,560
for fans, change the format to be more of a preparation for championships?

911
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,560
Like if you could change anything, if you had a blank slate, what would you do with

912
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,920
in season racing?

913
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:30,080
You know, I've hated dual meets for most of my career, but actually in recent years, we've

914
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,680
been doing some really creative stuff with our dual meets.

915
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,480
And I know that, you know, Cal and Stanford do their triple distance dual meets, you know,

916
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,000
which I thought was really great.

917
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,120
We've done that.

918
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,280
We have actually adopted the high school event format.

919
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:45,560
We do half distances.

920
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,080
We do double distances.

921
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:52,140
We we just, you know, and I'm fortunate to have a group of coaches that we do meets with

922
00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:56,040
regularly that are also kind of outside the box thinkers.

923
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:57,400
So you know, we're doing it.

924
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:04,560
We're doing a we have a meet this weekend on Saturday and it's a 22 event format.

925
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,000
It's nowhere in the rule book.

926
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:13,040
But we're swimming 22 different events and and and it's just a mixed bag of stuff.

927
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,360
And and the other coach and I are both kind of in the same spot trying to get some data

928
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,320
points so that we can make some informed decisions going to championships about events.

929
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:27,240
We're not scoring the meet, you know, so it takes some of the pressure off for the coaches

930
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:31,160
to be able to, you know, so we're not not worried about gathering points.

931
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,000
We're just really there to watch the kids swim and we're opening up every kid gets to

932
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,120
swim six events.

933
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,760
And and and it's just, you know, so we're trying to be creative with it.

934
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,720
And I think, you know, too often we get caught up in orthodoxy.

935
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:46,940
And the next thing you notice, we're just following the rule book and there's no creativity

936
00:55:46,940 --> 00:55:47,940
in that.

937
00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:52,400
And and I think I think coaches can find ways to bring more fun and enjoyment to it.

938
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,600
And, you know, we try to do it our way here.

939
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,040
I mean, we have a meet traditionally where we go 100 yard relays.

940
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,160
I mean, what kid doesn't like to get up and sprint 100 mentally relay?

941
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,000
I mean, that's like the fact that might be the most fun relay in the history of the books.

942
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,920
I wish I had had the opportunity to do it.

943
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,400
But, you know, we're stuck with swimming.

944
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,640
You know, we had only three relays back in my year.

945
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:13,040
We didn't have the 200s.

946
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:19,120
And so so I think there's all sorts of ways to get to get creative with stuff.

947
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,720
You know, the one we were fortunate in our pool that we have a bulkhead and we put the

948
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,520
starting blocks on the bulkhead and the end of the pool.

949
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,760
When we do that 100 yard relay at his pool, they don't have that luxury.

950
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,240
So our kids use running dives.

951
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:32,240
Wow.

952
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:35,920
I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, and our kids can't wait.

953
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:36,920
They can't wait.

954
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,120
They're like, are we are we swimming so and so with their pool or our pool this year?

955
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:41,400
And I was like, well, we're doing it our pool.

956
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,160
And they're like, not that we want to do the running dives.

957
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,360
So I think there's all sorts of ways to get there to make it more fun for the kids and

958
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,240
make it more engaging at the same time, still be productive.

959
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:56,440
I mean, I, you know, I don't want to come across as like making this sound like it's

960
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,180
just recessed.

961
00:56:58,180 --> 00:56:59,640
But I do think that there's some play.

962
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:00,800
I do think it is fun.

963
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,760
I think it is engaging for our kids.

964
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,160
I think they do have a good time with it.

965
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,160
And so I think, you know, I think coaches can be more creative if you can find that

966
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,800
willing partner on the other side of the pool is willing to engage that way.

967
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,440
And it's taken me a while to find those coaches out there who want to break orthodoxy and

968
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,800
try some different stuff.

969
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,560
And we're lucky to have found them.

970
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:28,040
Yeah, I think for me, the thing that's so strange about dual meets is that the format

971
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,360
is is nothing like the championship meet.

972
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:31,360
Nothing.

973
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,260
And so, you know, you don't you don't it's not that it has to absolutely prepare you

974
00:57:36,260 --> 00:57:37,260
for championship meets.

975
00:57:37,260 --> 00:57:42,120
But but if all you did were dual meets, that would be like going to a football season,

976
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,960
playing seven on seven, you know, two quarters of football and then OK, now in the playoffs,

977
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,520
we're going to we're going to do four quarters, you know, 11 on 11.

978
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:56,120
And so I think, you know, I'm not sure that the dual meet format is conducive to preparing

979
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,960
athletes for what championships are like.

980
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:05,240
And we've talked to, you know, Coach Parisi last last episode talked about how he he greatly

981
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:10,200
prefers invitationals because structured more like what will happen at the end of the season.

982
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,840
And I think that's that's a great point.

983
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,280
We talked to coaches who who they just train right through all meets.

984
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,240
They don't they you know, you'll swim fast at the end.

985
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:25,360
And I think mentally that can be very difficult because you don't have that that sense of

986
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,380
progress through the season.

987
00:58:27,380 --> 00:58:31,080
And I think that can that can really mess with your head, especially if at the end of

988
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,640
the year you get the flu or you have a bad taper or something.

989
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:35,640
Right.

990
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:36,640
And then you really don't know what you did.

991
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,080
Well, Brian, Brian does a great job at Akron.

992
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:41,920
I mean, we've known Brian for a long, long time.

993
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,120
And I have seen his model.

994
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,840
He has been adding more and more invites because I think to your point, I think it does get

995
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,000
you better prepared for championships and having to get up on the blocks, whether it's

996
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,180
a pre-o and final format or not.

997
00:58:52,180 --> 00:58:54,760
We go to one of his invitationals in October every year.

998
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,680
And it's you know, it's a it's a great primer for us to get the season started.

999
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,400
And I think it gets the kids off to a good start.

1000
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,800
So yeah, I think, you know, we're only limited by our imagination.

1001
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:09,040
And, you know, I looked at like what Arizona State did, what Irby did with the beer wagon,

1002
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,560
you know, in the fall, they, you know, they brought the beer wagon out on the pool.

1003
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:13,560
I just got it.

1004
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,000
I talked to my aide, I said, can we do that, too?

1005
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,920
And she was like, oh, yeah, we could probably figure that out, you know.

1006
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,680
And so I think there's all sorts of ways to get creative out there to make it more fun

1007
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:28,460
for more spectator friendly as well as fun and enjoyable for the swimmers.

1008
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:30,040
It shouldn't be a grind all the time.

1009
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,160
I mean, there's nothing wrong with having having some fun with this because most of

1010
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,760
the kids got into the sport because it is fun.

1011
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,400
Yeah, we we worked.

1012
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,920
It was a club level meet, but we worked with one of the clubs that we work with.

1013
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:50,080
They they had a midseason taper meat and they had a sponsor who who made the meat insanely

1014
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,080
exciting.

1015
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,360
So they had they brought out food trucks.

1016
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,360
They had t shirts.

1017
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,160
They they had a laser light show.

1018
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:57,160
They had a DJ.

1019
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,240
And so, you know, going back to your point about how it's not just about physical, it's

1020
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:07,760
about mental, the kids were so they have so much adrenaline after the walkout music going

1021
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:08,800
into finals.

1022
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,420
They swam out of their mind.

1023
01:00:10,420 --> 01:00:12,680
And part of it was just the energy that created.

1024
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:17,600
And I think sometimes as a sport, we do ourself a disservice by not trying to create an environment

1025
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,720
that really gets, you know, our athletes in that right mindset as well as for the fans

1026
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:23,720
as well.

1027
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,880
I think there's there's things that we can do getting creative with with those in season

1028
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:28,880
races.

1029
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:29,880
Oh, absolutely.

1030
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:30,880
Absolutely.

1031
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:32,840
And I think we're only limited by our imaginations.

1032
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,360
And I don't consider myself an imaginative person.

1033
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,320
I just I just like, OK, that that looks interesting.

1034
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:39,880
Let's do the high school format this year.

1035
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:40,880
That'd be kind of fun.

1036
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:41,880
That'd be something different.

1037
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,240
You know, so three relays instead of two is pretty cool.

1038
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:46,800
OK, last question.

1039
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,000
Yes, swimming.

1040
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,440
And I know you have been involved in a lot of other sports.

1041
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,840
You volunteer as a youth hockey coach, youth baseball coach.

1042
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,400
But besides swimming, what's your favorite sports sport to watch at Denison?

1043
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:03,840
And what gets you fired up to just sit back and be a fan at a sport at Denison?

1044
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:04,840
Probably ice hockey.

1045
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,920
You know, I coached ice hockey for 25 years.

1046
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,920
We have a club level program here.

1047
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,600
You know, my kids grew up on that rank.

1048
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,000
Like I said, I coached for 25 years.

1049
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,880
I enjoy a great hockey game when it's played well.

1050
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,440
And we play pretty decent hockey here for club level.

1051
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:27,560
And like I said, it's rooted in my family memories and my time on the ice with the boys.

1052
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:33,800
And so I also I can I can also enjoy a really well played baseball game to just sitting

1053
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:39,000
in the bleachers and just with the sun on my face, especially after I've been indoors

1054
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:40,000
all winter.

1055
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,760
It's nice to get out there and just enjoy a good baseball game.

1056
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,280
Yeah, you know, I'm the same way.

1057
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:45,800
I played baseball all my life.

1058
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,920
And sometimes I, you know, people are like, why do you why do you watch this game?

1059
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:51,920
I love this game.

1060
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:53,160
I don't know why I love this game.

1061
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:54,960
I played it since I was like three years old.

1062
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:56,280
So that was grew up.

1063
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:57,280
Did you grow up in New York?

1064
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,320
I know I grew up in Kentucky.

1065
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:00,680
So I grew up in rural Kentucky.

1066
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,200
So it's where it was a time when you played every sport you get your hand on.

1067
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,200
Yeah.

1068
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:06,200
And so I swam.

1069
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:07,200
I played tennis.

1070
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:08,200
I played baseball.

1071
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,480
But baseball was my the love of my life.

1072
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,200
And I wasn't you a Reds fan.

1073
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,200
Are you a Reds fan?

1074
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:16,200
Yes.

1075
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:17,200
Unfortunately, I know you.

1076
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,640
Hey, listen, Big Red Machine, Sparky Anderson, Johnny Badge.

1077
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,080
Peter Morgan, Peres.

1078
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,320
I mean, that's that was that was my favorite team in the 70s.

1079
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,680
If it wasn't the Tigers, it was it was the Reds.

1080
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:30,880
Oh, I love the Reds.

1081
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,960
I've seen so many Reds games and I long for the days of the Reds making the playoffs and

1082
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,640
being competitive.

1083
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:43,520
But yeah, that's so one of one of our parents, one of the parents of our alumni is the owner

1084
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:45,680
of Henny Penny Chicken Friars.

1085
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:46,680
That's what he does.

1086
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:47,680
He makes it.

1087
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:49,880
And he is actually a minority owner with the Reds.

1088
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:50,880
Oh, wow.

1089
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:56,080
Oh, he whenever the Tigers go to play the Reds, I end up getting two of the platinum

1090
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:02,120
actually up to four platinum seats right behind home plate and get I mean, he treats us really

1091
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:03,120
well.

1092
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,120
And I've been down to Cincinnati's new stadium a couple of times.

1093
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,280
What a beautiful part.

1094
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,280
It is.

1095
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:10,280
It is great.

1096
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:11,920
It's such a fun thing to do.

1097
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,120
I love going to any baseball game I can I can go to.

1098
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,880
But you know, my kids, they do not understand why I like this game.

1099
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,200
So they're swimmers.

1100
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,440
So it's fine.

1101
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:22,440
It's fine.

1102
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,040
I love swimming just as much.

1103
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,200
But as a baseball fan, sometimes it's hard to explain.

1104
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,200
And I'll tell you something else.

1105
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:30,200
It's really challenging.

1106
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:34,040
If you've ever been to a baseball game with somebody who has doesn't understand the rules

1107
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,360
of baseball, you think it's going to be easy to explain it until you go through and you

1108
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:39,360
do it.

1109
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,360
And then you're like, wow, this is actually a complicated game.

1110
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:43,440
It is a complicated game.

1111
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,120
So I quick story.

1112
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:52,560
My my grandfather was vice president of Borden back when Borden was in New York City.

1113
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:58,960
And as part of his job, he and he basically given four season tickets to the Yankees and

1114
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:04,860
he had them basically starting in 1932 up until the time Steinbrenner bought.

1115
01:04:04,860 --> 01:04:07,440
So imagine all the teams that he saw.

1116
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,240
But he had had a he had had a bad business dealing with George Steinbrenner.

1117
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,760
And these these seats were 19 rows up off the first baseline right behind the dugout.

1118
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,440
I mean, there are just so when Steinbrenner bought the team, my grandfather was so upset

1119
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,960
he sold the tickets without telling anybody.

1120
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,280
And I'll never forget the phone call.

1121
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:28,960
We're living in Michigan at the time.

1122
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,960
And my mother screams that that might be my dad had died or something like that.

1123
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,600
And she's like, you did what?

1124
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,400
And she just she threw the only time I ever saw her lose her mind.

1125
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,840
It was because my grandfather had sold the Yankees tickets and we haven't seen them

1126
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,680
since they've all gone back in the 1970s.

1127
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:47,720
Oh, my God.

1128
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,200
What a painful day in our household.

1129
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,800
That is a that is a great story.

1130
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:52,800
Yeah.

1131
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,960
So that is awesome, coach.

1132
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:57,200
Thank you so much for being on the show.

1133
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:58,400
I really appreciate it.

1134
01:04:58,400 --> 01:04:59,760
This was fantastic.

1135
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:05,160
And I'm really excited to see how how D3 championships go for you guys.

1136
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,120
I know you guys are going to be right in the thick of it.

1137
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,000
So it's going to be really fun to watch.

1138
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,840
So again, thank you so much.

1139
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:11,840
Thanks for thinking of us.

1140
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:12,840
I really appreciate it.

1141
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:13,840
This has been great.

1142
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:15,080
OK, got a great show going.

1143
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:16,080
All right.

1144
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,080
Thank you.

1145
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,080
Good luck the rest of the season, coach.

1146
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:19,080
All right.

1147
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:43,300
Thank you, Mayulk cover.