Alright, welcome to the Swim Intel Spotlight.
I'm Jamie Bailey and today we've got an absolute legend in college swimming.
Jon Howell, the head coach at Emory University is here.
Coach Howell has been running the show at Emory since 1998 and has built a dynasty.
Listen to this.
15 NCAA D3 championships, 58 individual national titles, over 1300 all-American swims and
nine-time national coach of the year.
And coach Andrew Wilson, the first D3 swimmer to ever compete at the Olympics, who also
won a gold medal in Tokyo.
Coach Howe, thank you for coming on.
Jamie, thank you for having me.
So here's what blows my mind about what you've done.
Emory is not just one of the top swimming schools.
It's one of the top academic schools in the country.
And that's not an easy combo, right?
Usually you get one of the other fast swimmers or top academics, but you have both.
Yet you guys crank out these high-level athletes while they're grinding through some tough
academic programs.
So what do you look for in a recruit to know they're not just going to survive, but thrive
in your program and at Emory?
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
And I think what we have always done really well at Emory is supported our students to
balance swimming and academics at a really high level.
And I think there's a lot of factors that go into that.
But certainly one of them is finding the right people.
And when we look at a recruit, or we look at our recruiting pool as a whole, I think
the process is kind of a big funnel.
And at the top, it's a wide entry point.
We get a lot of interest.
And I think where that funnel narrows the most is when we start looking at academic
fit.
So they have to get through the admissions process at Emory and be excited about what's
available here academically.
And so that narrows down quite a few recruits that are interested in the front end.
The second area that really narrows that pool is just the athletic fit.
So we are in a position where we can be selective.
And so swimmers have to meet certain time standards and fit our profile.
So that narrows the pool further.
And then after that, it becomes a little bit more subjective.
And we will end up with more swimmers that meet the academic requirement and the swimming
requirement than we're going to take into the program.
And so we start looking at other factors.
And for us, a good fit is, number one, someone who wants to get better.
And is really curious about what that process looks like, is really committed to that process
of developing.
And we've always been a developmental program.
And so we're looking for swimmers that really want to move forward in the sport and pursue
the opportunity to take it as far as they possibly can.
We also look for people who are going to be good collaborators in that process.
We look at this process as a collaborative process.
It's not just the coaches telling the swimmers what to do.
And so we want swimmers who are going to be actively engaged in that process, who are
curious about what's going to lead them to reach their potential.
So I think that's a big part of it.
They have to be, they have to connect with our community and be good fits for our community.
We attract really good people.
And they represent us at a really high level, both on campus and off campus.
And so we're looking for people who are going to take advantage of our community, but really
benefit from it as well.
So I think there's a lot of things that really have to line up for this to be the right place
for someone.
And when it lines up, I think it's a really exciting fit for them.
Okay, I got to say, I feel like people sleep on D3 swimming.
So many high school swimmers are locked in on D1.
They think that's the only legit option.
But then you look at Emory and it's like, wait a second, these guys are faster than
a lot of D1 programs.
Your recruiting numbers are insane, better than half of D1 teams.
In your conference, UAA is faster than a lot of mid-major D1s.
So what do you tell the kids or their parents who think D3 isn't quote unquote, big time
enough?
Yeah, again, I think it goes back to finding the right fit.
And I think the reality is that if you look at the Division I world, there's a wide range
of opportunities in the Division I world.
Swimming at Texas is a totally different experience than swimming at a mid-major or an Ivy League
school.
And so I think that's true also of Division III and probably true of Division II as well.
There's a lot of diversity in terms of environments out there and opportunities out there.
I think what we offer at Emory is unique among Division III.
I don't think there's anything quite like us out there.
In some ways, we look more like a Division I program.
In other ways, we're totally not a Division I program.
So for us, we try to find people who see the value in who we are and what we do and are
really going to come in and take advantage of that.
And often, I would say most of our recruits start off looking at the Division I world
and maybe they get frustrated and they have to give up something academically to go down
that road or they don't quite find that perfect fit or balance.
We offer something that is really unique among the Division III world and something that
is I think just uniquely Emory.
And so when we find someone that's excited about what we have to offer and they fit the
profile, I think it works out on its own.
Yeah, yeah, completely agree.
I think a lot of people refer to Emory as athletically more D1 than a lot of D1s.
Here's another wild thing.
You guys don't just crush it in D3.
You're out here scheduling dual meets with top D1 programs.
I mean, this season alone, you went against Georgia Tech.
You tied Queens or your women did and you're going to wrap up with Georgia.
That's crazy.
How do you even approach a season like that?
Is this just a way to test your team against the best or is there more to the strategy?
And honestly, do you ever sense some D1 coaches are like, yeah, I don't know that we want
to swim, Emory.
Yeah, I mean, the country, at least the Southeast, is full of teams that we have scheduled in
the past that won't swim us again because we have won some meets against Division I
schools.
But really what we're looking for again is development and opportunities to test ourselves
in a number of different competitive environments.
So I try to schedule meets against some really good head-to-head competition.
Queens is a good example of that.
Our women tied, but our men won a majority of individual events.
They got us on some relays.
We were early in our season, hadn't done a lot of relay starts, and Jeff's group did
a great job there.
So we schedule the meets like that.
We'll schedule some meets against some other D3 teams that are regional that we're probably
going to win a majority of our meets, but it gives us a chance to maybe move some people
in some different events or swim in a little different environment.
And then we schedule meets against some of the best swimmers in the country, some of
the best swimmers in the world.
And I think as an athlete and as a competitor, if you can be at your best in a number of
different environments and a wide range of environments, it just makes you a better overall
competitor.
So we try to test ourselves in different environments and in different situations.
And I think part of it is also strategic on our part.
We really want to keep our swimmers in class.
And so if we schedule things regionally, we can leave after class on Friday or leave Saturday
morning and still keep them in class and get a competitive opportunity in.
So most of what is available in the Southeast is either the haves or the have-nots.
You're either swimming against big SEC or ACC teams or you're swimming against teams
that are below us.
So part of it is also just where we are geographically.
But I think it benefits our swimmers to have to step up and compete in a wide range of
environments.
OK.
So the raging debate right now in college swimming, suiting up at meets, we're in a
tech suit at dual meets.
Where do you stand on suiting up at dual meets?
Well, I think we haven't done it yet, to be honest.
I think that I have kind of mixed feelings about the hype right now surrounding dual
meets.
And I get it to some degree.
But my thought is there's only so many times you can ask your swimmers to get up and be
at their best and to emotionally really give to a meet.
And so if we're going to do that, we want it to be a really good opportunity for them.
And I think dual meets, unfortunately, are pretty limited in terms of the events they
can swim and the range of events they can swim.
And so I would rather save those opportunities for a prelim final meet or a multi-day meet
where we really can get up and test ourselves and learn a little bit more.
So I think there's pros and cons.
I get it.
I think right now there's a real push to try to boost the fan experience and maybe get
more people to meets.
I think that that's exciting for swimming in some regards, but I think it has some limitations
in other areas.
And I think the reality of swimming, at least from what I've seen, is the crowd makeup is
typically parents, friends of swimmers, and maybe a couple swimming fans mixed into it.
It's hard to really, I think, expand our base beyond that pool.
And I think people look at the Olympics every year and look at the viewership for swimming.
They think, oh, maybe we can tap into that at the collegiate level.
To this point, nobody's been able to do that.
It's kind of a unique experience watching the Olympics on TV.
And so I worry about spending money and effort and also giving up opportunities to race in
suits to try to add a few more people to your stands.
OK, so if you could just completely rewrite the format of the season, just throw out the
rules throughout the traditions, how would you make the in-season experience of college
swimming more exciting, draw in more people than just those parents and friends and family?
Yeah, again, I kind of go back to do we really need to?
And maybe we do.
I'm not saying I have all the answers.
But I look at dual meets as an opportunity for us to get up and race and learn from races
and apply what we've done during the week and see if we can apply it to a competitive
setting and learn from that and use it to move on and get better.
I don't know, you know, it's fun to have people in the stands.
We certainly draw a pretty good crowd at Emory because we have a lot of alums in the area.
Our parents are really supportive, our community is supportive, you know, Emory is supportive
of what we do.
I think we get more fans than probably most E3 schools.
But I don't feel like we need to fill our stadium every time we compete in a dual meet.
So again, I have mixed feelings about it.
I think the ways in which you make it more exciting, you either add fan experiences,
lights or effects or food or whatever, which costs money.
And I think we're at a point in collegiate athletics where things costing more is not
necessarily a good thing for the sport.
Or you end up changing the format in a way that maybe there's you race the sprinters
more and you do semifinals and swim offs and things like that.
I don't know, again, there'd have to be for me be an advantage from a training standpoint
and a racing standpoint to do that.
I think you downplay the distance events sometimes when you do that.
So I think there's pros and cons to everything.
And I think maybe focusing on one meet that you really try to build something unique and
special and make it a big deal and try to get people to come could be a really fun exercise.
But I don't know if I necessarily need that every single dual meet.
Oh, yeah, I agree.
I think that would be really cool to focus on one just really exciting meet, try to draw
people in.
I had the opportunity to be at a meet where I believe it was Allison Greenway that set
a team record at a dual meet.
It wasn't even a taper meet.
And the crowd got loud for that.
That was actually a really cool experience.
So yeah, yeah.
And that's an unusual meet because it's usually four teams and we do it over two days.
So there's a lot of racing.
So we had a lot of parents in the stands.
We had a lot of alumni in the stands and the other teams because again, we have more teams
there.
They also bring their fan base.
So yeah, that had more people in the stands than a typical dual meet.
And it also was a meet where we had more opportunities to get up and race.
And so we were taking advantage of that.
Yeah, that was fun.
OK, let's get into the business side for a second.
College sports, they're changing fast.
You've got the greenhouse settlement, NIL deals, budget shifts.
It's a whole new world that's forming.
How do you think all these changes are going to impact D3 programs like yours, especially
a school like Emory where academics are such a huge focus?
I think that the honest answer is I'm not sure yet.
It is changing and it is changing quickly.
We certainly have had a lot of interest from student athletes that have either been cut
from programs at the Division I level or they've been cut, they've committed to a school and
then schools have come back and changed that commitment.
And so no longer offering them spots.
We've had a lot of that this year.
So I fear that with these changes, there's going to be fewer opportunities for high school
swimmers that want to swim in college across the board.
That's certainly going to be the case at Division I because I think you're not only seeing roster
limits at the highest level, but we're starting to see it even at the major level and other
levels.
So I think we're going to end up with more interest and maybe more interest from students
that assume they go D1, but maybe there's not the opportunity that they thought there
was.
But the reality is we're still a fit.
And so the group that we need to find has to fit so many different criteria that just
because they're the right swimmer and they can compete for us at this level and add to
what we're doing as a team doesn't mean that they're right fit for Emory and our team.
So I see it being a bit more vetting, a bit more work.
Going back to that funnel analogy, I think maybe that incoming stream going into the
funnel is just going to become greater now than it was two years ago because there are
people that would have found a fit somewhere else and are reevaluating the process.
Are you seeing the top of your funnel getting bigger?
Are you seeing more interest right now?
Yeah.
And I think that's been kind of a trend over the last several years.
We are no longer an up and coming program.
We're well established and people know who we are.
So I think there's a lot of interest there.
I think Emory is a very appealing place.
And so that has also built interest.
And yes, we are definitely seeing more students that started this process thinking they were
going to go to Division 1 that are realizing now that that's not an opportunity.
And so they're reevaluating things.
Yeah.
We've seen the aftermath of some of these roster cuts.
Also with the recruits as well, days before signing day, we've had athletes that have
come in to swim and tell that we're cut from that recruiting class.
And it's been really hard to watch that pain that the 2025s, I think, really got put in
a bad position with all of these changes.
So my heart goes out to them.
I think it's going to get, unfortunately, worse before it gets better.
And talking to friends in the Division 1 world, some of them have a clear sense of what next
year is going to look like.
It's very unclear still.
But I think the reality is most schools are going to land and most conferences are going
to land somewhere between 22 and 30 is a roster limit.
And that's just going to put a lot of kids that are at current schools looking for transfer
opportunities.
And it's also going to limit opportunities for those that are coming in the front door.
And yeah, it's going to be a difficult situation.
And I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet, unfortunately.
Yeah.
So you've got what?
Around 40 guys and 40 girls, just swimmers on your team.
Do you think Emory's roster size will stay around where you have historically been?
Or are you foreseeing some changes coming to your team?
Yeah.
I think we have, over the last two years, actively worked to reduce our roster size
by being more selective on the recruiting side.
We got a little bit big as a result of COVID.
We recruited one class who wasn't able to visit campus, so we never met them in person.
So we offered more spots there than we would have with a normal class and more took us
up on the offer than we expected.
We also had swimmers that did gap years or fifth years because of COVID.
So we ended up bigger for a couple of years than we really wanted to be.
And through that process, I really decided that I'd rather be smaller rather than bigger.
And so we have actively worked to reduce our roster.
And our goal in two years is to be between 25 and 30 men, 25 and 30 women on the swimming
and the things, and then let our diving coach do what he thinks is right for that program.
So we will definitely be smaller, but that's more by design on our part than it is by some
kind of a restriction from the conference or even the university.
I do think you'll see, the D3 world is again, very different.
There are some schools where they really need to keep numbers up because of enrollment pressures.
And student athlete enrollment is a big part of the financial structure of the school.
So they're under pressure to carry as many student athletes as they can.
I think at places like Emory, what we're finding is that the cost of supporting students in
this day and age is more than it was several years ago.
And so a lot more resources are being allocated towards mental health and different support
systems within the university.
And that means that there's less probably trickling down to athletics.
And so I do think you'll see some roster limitations even out there at the division three level.
But I think it's going to be again, school by school versus maybe a conference driven
type of a situation that you're seeing right now in D1.
So here's something that's crazy to me, your retention rates.
So you have almost like every swimmer that is a freshman on your team coming back swimming
their sophomore year.
And to have almost 100% retention, especially that freshman sophomore year, that's really
unheard of in most college programs.
The team is a pretty big team right now.
I know you said you're going to by design take it down a little bit.
But how do you keep everybody motivated and bought in?
And you've done this for years too, even when only about half the team is going to be able
to compete at UAAs or NCAAs.
Yeah, again, I think it goes back to finding the right people and really committing to
the development of each individual.
And we have so many examples on our team of swimmers who came in freshman year.
And didn't make travel squads.
We're outside the competitive threshold to make nationals.
But they develop and they really learn from the people that are in that situation.
They develop, they get better and they end up being an All-American for us as an upperclassman.
Last year on both the men's and the women's side, we had upperclassmen that made nationals
for the first time that were contributors at the national level.
We had one senior bullfighter, his first travel of his four years really was conference his
senior year and then he was an All-American for us.
So I think when we get swimmers that really see the value in our process and who really
want to get better and commit to that, they realize that it is going to be a process.
Everybody looks at Andrew Wilson and the success that Andrew had.
He never made a travel roster in his first semester with us as a freshman.
And so it took him time to get his feet underneath them and to adapt to what we're doing and
to move forward and get better.
And so even the best swimmers we've ever had, there's been a process of developing them.
And I think that's one of the things that's really stood out as unique to our program
is especially among peer schools that are academically driven.
Our swimmers not only get better from freshman year to sophomore year, but they continue
to get better all four years.
And our best swimmers are always our juniors and our seniors.
And so it's a different path for different swimmers and different process for different
swimmers.
But I think if they're committed to that process of really exploring what's possible for them
as individuals, then not making a travel squad one year is just part of that process and
sets them up to do something better down the road.
What I thought was one of the best recruiting pitches I've heard from any coach was, I heard
you say one time, I need a 53 second 100 backstroke or female to win nationals, but I can't recruit
one because a 53 second 100 backstroke is going to go power four, power five.
So we recruit a 56, 57 and we make them into a 53.
And that is a really powerful recruiting pitch both for the athlete as well as the parents.
Yeah, and it's a fun process for us to be honest.
And I always feel like this sport is a lot more fun when you're moving forward and you're
working towards something.
And as a coach, it's a lot more fun to coach people who want to get better.
And we're really fortunate to have swimmers that are actively part of that process with
us and they become really good partners.
And as upperclassmen, they're adding a lot to their own development and a lot to what
they're doing training wise.
Okay, so let's talk about some of these time drops that you're seeing.
So I was looking at some of your swimmers like Ryan Soh, he dropped from a 49.6 out of
high school to a 47.2 in the 100 fly or Jake Meyer going from a 55 to a 52 in the 100 breast.
These are huge time drops.
So what's your approach to training?
Have you found some kind of magic formula over the years that you just repeat or has
it been a lot of trial and errors over the years?
Yeah, one thing I love about swimming is there's nothing magic about it.
And as soon as you kind of feel like you figured it out, it has a way to keep you pretty humble.
But for us, first of all, I don't just repeat what we do every year.
I get bored very easily.
So I like trying new things.
I like learning from new experiences.
I believe that you learn a lot from failure, sometimes even more from failure than your
successes.
And so we're always trying new things and pushing the envelope in different areas.
So I think from a training perspective, what we have found works for us is to really look
at the individual and kind of meet swimmers where they are as opposed to just labeling
them a sprinter or breaststroker or backstroker and training everybody the same way.
So every one of my team has a training plan that's designed for them.
It's a process that they have input into and they're part of in terms of developing it.
And so we have however number of swimmers we have, everybody has their own unique training
plan.
And it's something that they understand.
And we both know what the purpose is and what they're trying to accomplish.
And we're always reevaluating it and tweaking it.
It's very common for a senior to be doing something very different than what they started
with freshman year.
And both Ryan So and Jake Myers are great examples of that.
Where we started freshman year and where we ended training-wise senior year, it was a
process of development.
And so I think by looking at them as individuals and really looking at things in a very purpose-driven
way, I think we're able to help them explore what's possible.
And that's always been at the heart of what we do.
And we're actively supporting the academic piece along the line as well.
And sometimes a change in the water is dictated by a really difficult semester academically
or really hard semester academically or a really easy semester academically might dictate
a change as well.
So we look at the whole picture and really try to support them as people as well as well
as as athletes and students.
So when you're recruiting an athlete out of high school, do you find that you need to
find athletes that are more compatible with your training style?
Do you look more towards certain clubs that you have a familiarity with, with how those
coaches have coached those kids through their high school years?
Or is that just not really a big part of recruiting yet?
I think there are clubs out there I know well and coaches I know well.
And I try to get out every summer and visit some clubs so I have a better sense of where
our students are coming from.
Because if I have a better idea of what they've done in the past that helps me to advise them
on where we start freshman year and where we kind of go with things.
But we've had success with a wide range of clubs and it's amazing when you get out and
visit clubs.
There's a wide range of what people are doing.
And so that's one of the reasons why I really believe we should look at this as an individual
process because if you're getting a swimmer that's doing 100,000 meter weeks and has been
lifting and really specializing versus a swimmer that's never done a double in their life,
never been in a weight room, those are two different challenges.
And those swimmers may have the same times coming in, swim the same events, but to look
at them as the same people just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
So we really don't gravitate towards one club or another.
I tend to gravitate towards coaches who I have a good relationship with and who are
honest with me in the process.
If I try to reach out to coaches when we're recruiting swimmers to get their perspective
and kind of learn from them, understand the swimmer better from their perspective, when
people don't respond to me or don't return the call, that's less helpful to me than when
I have a coach who I know well and I know that they're going to give me the honest good
and bad and ugly about this person just so I know what I'm getting into.
So we tend to gravitate towards those clubs that do support us and coaches that are really
interested in their students' development beyond just high school.
And that tends to be a benefit for us overall.
But we get swimmers from all over the country, all over the world and from a wide range of
backgrounds and it's part of what makes this process fun for us.
Yeah, you have several swimmers on your team that are from the West Coast and I don't think
it's always practical to be able to visit all those recruits.
So where do you stand on being able to see a swimmer swim before you give them that offer?
Are videos important?
Do you need to attend a meet?
I really like to attend meets and see them race if I can.
Just because I think you learn a lot about how they race and how they approach competition
and so you can see strokes.
So we try if possible to see people race and I'm actually going to go to Junior's up in
Greensboro in a couple of weeks but I'm really excited to see some of our incoming class
swim.
Because some of them I haven't seen race yet or I saw them a year ago and it's kind of
fun to see that development from one year to the next and to be able to kind of see
how they're changing and which direction they're going.
So I do find that helpful but it's not always practical to see everybody in the water.
And if I can get to a club and see some of our swimmers train too and talk to the coach
a little bit more that again gives me another layer of knowledge that we can use when we're
setting up a training program so they come in as freshmen.
We often tell the athletes that we work with if you're going to give a video to a coach
remember they're not recruiting perfection they're recruiting potential.
So you don't have to show them the absolute perfect race.
I think that's something you know especially the kids in high school today they really
struggle getting over with having to show you that perfect race and that pressure that
they put on themselves when they're going to you know show you something you're going
to watch and they worry about how that's going to affect the recruiting process for them.
Now I agree and we don't do a lot with video to be honest.
You know I think seeing them live is in some ways is more helpful because you really can
watch not just the race when they're in the water but how you know how they look outside
the water how they're interacting with their teammates with their coaches you know.
When I go to a meetup you know I'm looking at more than just you know what they're doing
from wall to wall.
Yeah you know and you bring up a good point you know how you interact with your teammates
how you interact with your coaches how you react to a bad race how you react to a good
race because I think some of those things kind of go into the culture of the team you're
trying to build and you know everything that I've seen about Emory's culture is it's fantastic.
There's a lot of team support amongst the swimmers you know from the day you move in
through you know the meet season itself.
Yeah and I think for us you know finding people who have a healthy relationship with this
sport who are really excited about the opportunities that they have in front of them you know that
that makes all the difference in the world you know and you know you can you can always
work with someone who wants to get better and is really motivated to do that and is
approaching it from a really positive and proactive way and you know and again there's
going to be there's going to be successes and failures along the way and how we deal
with failure as well as how we respond to you know things that work out well you know
those are important aspects of you reaching your potential.
We only have a four-year window which I think when freshmen come in they look at it they
think it's it's such a long endless amount of time but you know from my perspective again
I've been here 26 years you know the four years go so fast and so we really have to
take advantage of each opportunity we have because there's just not enough of them in
four years.
Yeah totally agree totally agree.
Okay last one just for fun outside of dual meets what is the most exciting sporting event
to check out at Emory like if I'm on campus what is the can't miss thing?
Well I'll tell you from our team's perspective it's volleyball so you know that our team
always has a good relationship with volleyball they love going and supporting volleyball
so I you know I think that's probably more about the the connection with their team and
their community but I think it's a fun game to watch as well.
Our team is it's always been very supportive of other teams on campus and we are often
called as you mentioned our culture is it's a very close group they're very excited about
what they're doing they're very connected it's not uncommon for a team to ask us to
come in and do a cheer for a big game they have or you know to come in and support you
know a match that they have on campus so you know we are often called in for that purpose
and our team absolutely loves it and they've done you know they've done cheers in the middle
of the basketball arena in a big game and you know outside in soccer you know coming
from practice and banging on the rails with kickboards and cheering for soccer so they're
always happy to get together and do something fun and so you know really anything they can
do to to be to be together is usually is usually a win from their perspective but volleyball
is probably right now the favorite sport so.
Nice nice.
Coach Howell thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions I know the
parents and the athletes love hearing from coaches understanding you know what you look
for in recruits and what it's like to swim there again thank you so much.
Happy to do it and I appreciate you thinking of me.
All right thank you coach out.