WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.000 Vadym Kostiuk (00:02) Hello, hello Marcin. Thanks for joining us on our podcast, Closure in Product. We'll do it again. 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:02.000 Artem Barmin (00:10) Hello. 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.000 Marcin (00:12) Hello, hello to everyone. 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.000 Vadym Kostiuk (00:15) Yeah, it's nice to see you ⁓ on our recording. And to begin, I suggest maybe just a few questions about yourself and your ⁓ journey as an engineer, as a closure engineer in particular. So if you could please, can you tell us a bit about your background? Like you mentioned that learning closure, that you were learning closure while at dentists and you were new to closure when you joined them. 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.000 So can you please share your experience on this matter? How was it for you ⁓ in dentists? And yeah, is it generally a good experience for you? 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.000 Marcin (00:58) Yeah, so ⁓ it's actually a quite long journey. So I have started in Dentons six years ago as a junior web developer and Clojure was introduced to me by two excellent developers. One was, ⁓ let's say the lead developer, the architect of the referral network that I am leading now. Second one was... ⁓ 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.000 senior closure engineer, like this guy was from with closure from the very beginning of being of the language. And I had a React background. So ⁓ while working with React, I was introduced to the concept of pure functions in general, you know, pure functional programming. ⁓ 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:08.000 And when I joined, those guys showed me a Clojure script. And at the beginning, I was involved in writing Clojure script. So it was very, very interesting concept where I saw that things from React that I have considered like the top level ⁓ code with memoization, pure functions, it was already there. 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.000 And this feeling ⁓ that I could write this highly optimized code right away was just amazing. it was my first encounter to Lisp. So it was very, very different from what I was doing previously. So yeah, the syntax wasn't this scary. 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:10.000 Artem Barmin (02:19) Thank you. 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:12.000 Marcin (02:48) I was already familiar with concepts of LIPS as I started with programming when I was studying chemistry in the University of Łódź in Poland. One guy that I was living with inside the room was into IT and programming and he encountered some of the LIPS. 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.000 Artem Barmin (03:17) Thank 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:14.000 Marcin (03:18) And he showed 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.000 Artem Barmin (03:19) you. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.000 Marcin (03:19) me that and there was like this crazy book of Lisp or something like that. So yeah, it was quite long ago. But yeah, that's how I started. since then, always, wherever I ⁓ am, I'm trying to like put this functional approach to problems and things that I've encountered in Clojure. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Yeah, that's how it started. 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.000 Artem Barmin (03:50) Interesting. Have you started from closure or closure script? 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Marcin (03:55) I started with Clojure script and then I was guided by my co-workers into Clojure. So it was a very good, you know, hints how I should proceed to learn the language itself, starting from the concepts that I'm not familiar with. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:20.000 Artem Barmin (04:04) Mm-hmm. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.000 Marcin (04:22) to the language and all this JVM ecosystem, interrupt with Java, working with databases. That was something new. I had some of, a little bit of full stack experience when I was working with React and my, let's say, ⁓ unfinished little projects. 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.000 and where I was learning new concepts. yeah, that's how I ended in the closure ecosystem. 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Artem Barmin (05:02) Mm-hmm. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.000 Vadym Kostiuk (05:04) That's interesting, actually. Thank you. And I had a question about Dentis and Clojure. So it's one of the biggest law firms in the world. And it's interesting to hear how actually Clojure ended up there. ⁓ Considering the size of Dentis, it's a niche language, pretty much. So ⁓ maybe you heard anything from your coworkers or from the one who maybe introduced Clojure to Dentis. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.000 how it started. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Marcin (05:37) Yeah, so it's quite interesting story because ⁓ Dentons itself, it's a very large firm and long ago, before I have started, there was a need for the firm to grow and therefore the concept of next law and referral network arised and ⁓ it was basically a venture. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:27.000 of the, let's say, CEO senior project management where the firm needed to create an environment for lawyers to work closely together. It was quite separated from the rest of the firm and therefore there was an opportunity to pick something different ⁓ than, you know, usually corporate 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.000 languages like Java or C sharp or even, you know, TypeScript. So there was a place for closure as it was very expressive. This language is, you know, in general, very expressive. It allows a small team to achieve really great goals, in my opinion. And with very small team, 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Artem Barmin (06:37) huh. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Marcin (07:05) the initial team that has started the project that I'm currently maintaining, they were familiar to Clojure. So they, with very small capacity, they were able to achieve really big things. So that's how it ended up here. And yeah, it's, I know that this language isn't, 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Artem Barmin (07:16) Mm-hmm. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Marcin (07:34) picked in firms of this size, there is from time to time a place for foreclosure might be found in really big firms. yeah, that's how it ended in Dentons. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Artem Barmin (07:50) Do you know the story, how it started? Was there a discussion? ⁓ Should we choose Clojure? Should we go with the Java? Do you know the history of this decision? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.000 Marcin (08:04) yes. It was quite simple, you know. So when I'm chatting with other developers or people in the firm and I'm saying things about Clojure, you know, I need to how to spell it, you know, what is this language? But after you mentioned that we have Java underneath, you know, we can do everything that Java offers, but quicker. And that's something that is very catchy. 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.000 Artem Barmin (08:28) Uh-huh. 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.000 Marcin (08:33) So, yeah, that's how it was picked basically. yeah, that's the story. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:37.000 Artem Barmin (08:34) Uh-huh. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.000 I'm 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 I see, I see, very interesting. And can you tell a bit about the place of the closure right now in Dentos? So is it used in one project or it's kind of more broadly used in a company for other projects or subsystems? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Marcin (08:58) ⁓ Sorry, Artem, can you repeat? I'm 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.000 having... 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.000 Artem Barmin (09:06) Sorry, are you here? Yeah, yeah. OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the question is basically, what is the place of closure right now in Dantest? Is it used for one ⁓ subsystem, or it's more widely used for different modules, different microservices? I don't know. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.000 Marcin (09:08) Can you repeat once again? I'm having issues with connection. 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Yeah, so right now it's, let's say, sitting in its own spot. So there is a delegated environment for the Clojure ecosystem that is running in Nexlo. So basically everything that was associated with Nexlo was intended to run on Clojure. And right now, 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:45.000 Artem Barmin (09:57) Mm-hmm. 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.000 Marcin (10:00) ⁓ It's own spot, sitting right there. And some of the services are integrated. We are opening some gateways for the APIs. So that's mainly it. So like... 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.000 Artem Barmin (10:16) Okay. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.000 Marcin (10:27) I won't get into details, but right now it's quite enclosed with some connection endpoints available to the rest of the firm. 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.000 Artem Barmin (10:41) Mm-hmm. I see, I see. So you don't know any other closure team inside the dentists? 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:50.000 Marcin (10:49) No, I'm quite alone with this technology in a firm. But when I'm showing some of the concepts of the language, everybody gets like the light bulb above their heads and they seem to find it really interesting. 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.000 Artem Barmin (10:56) Mm-hmm. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.000 Hmm. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 Martin, you are lagging ⁓ 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:54.000 Marcin (11:26) Okay, sorry. 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.000 Artem Barmin (11:28) Yeah, we're here. We're here. Vadim, ⁓ you're on mute. 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.000 Marcin (11:32) Okay. 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.000 Vadym Kostiuk (11:41) Yeah, I was just saying, don't worry about it. We will just cut it off, be the final recording. So, ⁓ and it saves locally again. Should be fine. 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:58.000 Artem Barmin (11:44) Mm-hmm. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.000 Yeah, that's not a 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:00.000 problem. That's not a problem until we have at least audio connection. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:01.000 Vadym Kostiuk (11:54) Marson, are you as us? 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.000 Marcin (12:01) Yeah, I'm having some connectivity issues. The video is lagging. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.000 Vadym Kostiuk (12:14) Can you hear us? 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.000 Can you hear us at all? 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.000 Marson? 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:06.000 There's no pause here. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.000 Artem Barmin (13:05) Well, yes. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.000 Vadym Kostiuk (13:08) I don't understand. ⁓ 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.000 Artem Barmin (13:25) Well, no, I can't it, but I can't see it, you're so clear-faced. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.000 There were no connectivity problems I don't remember that. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Vadym Kostiuk (13:47) No, not our country, not in speakers. 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:12.000 Artem Barmin (13:49) Yeah, 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.000 that's how it was done. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:14.000 You're torturing yourself. 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:15.000 Vadym Kostiuk (14:04) I thought about it. Can Marsin join the meeting that is already being recorded? 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.000 Artem Barmin (14:12) He's not. 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.000 HZ. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:18.000 Vadym Kostiuk (14:17) Let's check it 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.000 Artem Barmin (14:18) No idea. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.000 Vadym Kostiuk (14:52) I'll write it 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:21.000 Artem Barmin (14:53) Mm-hmm. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.000 Marsin, Marsin. Such big company. I'm not hero. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.000 Vadym Kostiuk (15:07) Mm-hmm. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Thank I you good luck! 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Artem Barmin (15:14) you 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:26.000 Vadym Kostiuk (15:16) It's an maybe there Wi-Fi, it's really beautiful. 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.000 Definitely not for podcasting. 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:28.000 Artem Barmin (15:25) U-huh. The video Everything is in squares. 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Vadym Kostiuk (15:33) I'm not really worried about because it will be okay. If the was okay. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.000 Artem Barmin (15:37) No, it's just as indicator, 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:31.000 know, even the video lags. 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Vadym Kostiuk (15:55) Did write you a link? ⁓ 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.000 Artem Barmin (15:59) in 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.000 It easier for to because browser will open time. 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.000 Vadym Kostiuk (16:07) No Not just 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:36.000 these days. 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.000 work tool. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 into a hundred wire. 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:39.000 Marcin (16:27) Okay, I'm back, hopefully. 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:40.000 Artem Barmin (16:29) ⁓ Good, good. 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:41.000 Vadym Kostiuk (16:35) Can you hear us well? 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:42.000 Marcin (16:43) I can hear you, but the reverse side just crushed my browser. had to restart everything. 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:43.000 Vadym Kostiuk (16:44) Marcin? 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:44.000 Artem Barmin (16:50) Yeah. Ho, ho, ho. 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:45.000 Vadym Kostiuk (16:54) That's the first time I see that. 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:46.000 Artem Barmin (16:56) Yeah. 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.000 Marcin (16:56) Yeah, I've never had such 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:48.000 issues. 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.000 Artem Barmin (16:59) Maybe it's recorded too much. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:50.000 Marcin (17:01) Yeah, I've never had such issues on other. ⁓ 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.000 Vadym Kostiuk (17:10) Yeah, that's interesting. ⁓ Yeah, just once again, can you hear us well? If yes, we can just continue with the questions. 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Marcin (17:19) Yeah, I can hear you really well. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Artem Barmin (17:23) Okay, good. So let's continue. So we were talking about the history, how the closure ended up in dentists. And to continue this question, it's really interesting about internal status of closure inside the dentists. So was it officially sanctioned when you started... 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:54.000 Marcin (17:27) I can hear you but you are frozen to me. 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Artem Barmin (17:53) knew not you, but when project was started, ⁓ it was kind of under... 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:56.000 Marcin (17:57) Sorry, Artem, I 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 can't understand. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:58.000 It's the sound is also lagging. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.000 Artem Barmin (18:08) Okay. 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:00.000 Poo Poo Poo Poo 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Vadym Kostiuk (18:16) ⁓ 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:02.000 I'm just trying to understand if it's because of the speed connection or because of the reverse side interacting with your browser and with your machine. Is it possible for you to check the speed of the internet? Just use it. 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:03.000 like speed test, tool or anything. 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:04.000 Marcin (18:44) Yeah, it's like around eight megabytes per second, 16 megabytes. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:05.000 Vadym Kostiuk (18:56) Yeah, probably it is the case. 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.000 Marcin (19:00) Can you give me five minutes? I will try to do something maybe. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.000 Vadym Kostiuk (19:00) slow. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.000 Artem Barmin (19:07) Of course, of course. 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Vadym Kostiuk (19:08) Yeah, sure, sure. 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:10.000 Artem Barmin (19:55) And here, Vadim, you also hung up. 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.000 I'm a 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Hello, hello? 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:13.000 Vadym Kostiuk (20:13) I just protested and thought that everyone has a speed. 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:14.000 Artem Barmin (20:17) Oh, you tested it, and I thought something was 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.000 Yeah, good. Gigabit. 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:16.000 minus. 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:17.000 The Mafia. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:18.000 in often. Yes? Well, that's it. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Vadym Kostiuk (20:38) By the very safe here. I 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:20.000 was that there a tyrant here, I don't know what years. A dictator. He was thrown away and the Albanian mafia And now it's very safe Some people leave on road, open windows and just go somewhere. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:21.000 Artem Barmin (20:45) Bye. 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:22.000 No. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000 Yeah. Hmm. 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Pretty cool. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.000 Yes 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.000 Vadym Kostiuk (21:10) They the in the shops. They the keys. Or someone can the bag on the entrance, in front of the shop entrance, then take and take it away. 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:27.000 Artem Barmin (21:13) Hmm ⁓ 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:28.000 serious 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:29.000 No 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:30.000 It is that there is mafia, heroines are taking... 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.000 Well, then, globally. 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:32.000 Vadym Kostiuk (21:43) I 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.000 don't know any that doesn't have crime. I think even Switzerland has 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:34.000 Artem Barmin (21:47) Mm-hmm. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:35.000 Okay, let's try one more time. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:36.000 Marcin (21:51) Okay, hopefully it will be better right now. 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Vadym Kostiuk (21:57) Yeah, we can hear you loud and clear, so it should be better. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:38.000 Marcin (21:59) Okay, so 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:39.000 it's also much better for me. 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.000 Artem Barmin (22:02) Cool, cool. Okay, so we were talking about the place of closure in the dentist right now and to follow up this topic with a question, I'm curious about the status of a closure inside the company. So was it ⁓ originally sanctioned by, I don't know, a CTO of a company? 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:41.000 to put this language into the stack or it was kind of under a radar and only afterwards when everyone say so that it works okay and very good, it was sanctioned. So was the status changed over the time? That's interesting. 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Marcin (22:46) ⁓ Well, I'm afraid that I wasn't at the very beginning and this knowledge was a little bit hidden from me. ⁓ But from what I know, it was accepted by the global team. ⁓ So it was conscious decision. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Artem Barmin (22:53) you 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:44.000 Mm-hmm. 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000 Marcin (23:11) and we had security checks, everything had to be in place. So yeah, was, from what I know, a very well-made decision at the very beginning. 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.000 Artem Barmin (23:12) Mm-hmm. 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Mm-hmm. 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Very interesting to see the results of security checks of the closure. What kind of checks, what vulnerabilities. That's pretty interesting. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.000 Vadym Kostiuk (23:42) You said for the very beginning, ⁓ so everyone was happy, but like looking back in the conversations with your colleagues, again, with those maybe who introduced Clojure to the dentist, maybe they shared any unexpected benefits or perhaps like drawbacks of using Clojure ⁓ in, you know, in some time. So looking back how it's ended up, ⁓ is it more positive or? 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:50.000 Marcin (24:06) Mm-hmm. 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:51.000 Vadym Kostiuk (24:11) negative experience and if so it would be interesting to hear the details. 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.000 Marcin (24:17) ⁓ So I think that in the process, while we needed to integrate a bit more into the corporate ecosystem, we started to find obstacles. So like from our end, was ⁓ quite simple. It was just some coding with APIs. 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Artem Barmin (24:36) Mm-hmm. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:54.000 Marcin (24:47) But there were issues with understanding from the other developer teams which were running mostly C sharp things or TypeScript node servers. When they heard that we are running something in Java and in AWS, not in Azure, they started scratching their heads. Why? Why it's like that? 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:55.000 In the process from a very happy lone island somewhere in the firm when there were need for integrations ⁓ some cracks started to arise. So yeah, that's a general overview how it looks. 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:56.000 Artem Barmin (25:33) And what kind of cracks? I'm curious because from my understanding, if you are only exposing the APIs, you can provide the documentation, maybe Swagger docs or just Google docs, I don't know. And that should be enough. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:57.000 Marcin (25:48) Yeah, mainly because of how to say that, ⁓ not usual technologies that we use. So it wasn't mostly like coding or something like that, but from the project management perspective. yeah, we have like, you know, we have Metabase and why are you not using Power BI, for example? 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.000 Artem Barmin (26:06) Mm-hmm 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:59.000 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:00.000 Marcin (26:15) those types of things and we were supposed to run closure stack ⁓ but we already have something in place so it adds complexity to the general firm ecosystem. 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.000 Artem Barmin (26:21) Uh-huh. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.000 So have you provided some training about the Metabase? As I understand this is kind of a data analytics tool, not a developer's tool, yeah? 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:04.000 Marcin (26:44) Yeah, so if somebody would like to see the data that we are working on, I need to give everybody a short tour around Metabase. So from developer perspective, it's excellent, but it stills little amounts of everybody's time because people are already familiar with some technologies, know, Power BI's. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:05.000 Artem Barmin (26:51) Mm-hmm. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:06.000 Hmm, uh-huh, I see. 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.000 Uh-huh. 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:08.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:09.000 Uh-huh. 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:10.000 Marcin (27:14) other tech stacks running like dotnets in in such a big corporate environment and suddenly you're being you know people that are in in business for 20 years or something like that are being introduced to very fresh new technologies and that they are not familiar with and it's always something new and 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.000 Artem Barmin (27:18) Mm-hmm. 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:12.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.000 Marcin (27:43) a call or one or two is needed for explanations what, where and why. 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.000 Artem Barmin (27:46) Let's go. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.000 I see, I see, very interesting. So it's kind of very isolated lake of closure inside the sea of the dentist technologies. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:17.000 Marcin (28:00) Yeah, we can call it like that. 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Artem Barmin (28:02) Yeah, very interesting. ⁓ Now, let's move more into the team and collaboration part of the podcast. So can you tell about the current role, what you are doing in Dantos? Do ⁓ you have day-to-day hand coding sessions, something like this, or are you more managing the people? 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Marcin (28:28) So let's say it's a bit complex because in the last year I have changed my official title. So right now I'm global data developer in Dantons. I'm working mostly right now with PySpark and Databricks, doing operations on very large data sets. ⁓ 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Artem Barmin (28:39) Mm-hmm. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 I'm going. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:22.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.000 Marcin (28:57) Yeah, that's what I'd mostly do right now. But in the same time, I'm also sharing lead developer role for the Nextdoor referral network, which is the closure app that is running side by side with whole Danton ecosystem. ⁓ So in the referral network, since 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:24.000 Artem Barmin (29:18) Mm-hmm. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.000 Marcin (29:27) ⁓ Previously, it was very hard coding, let's say, let's call it. So a lot of coding, lot of also, I think, architecture. ⁓ So AWS stuff, DevOps, that's what I was doing quite a lot. And with the closure part itself, it was... 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:26.000 Artem Barmin (29:32) No, no, no. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:27.000 Marcin (29:55) ⁓ a lot of pull requests, reviews, lot of changes done by myself to the, let's call, ⁓ critical parts of the application. So that's how I was operating. And in the very beginning, it was mostly front-end related tasks. And after that, I had to really quickly jump into 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:28.000 Artem Barmin (30:09) Mm-hmm. 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.000 Marcin (30:24) ⁓ the backend stuff with with Clojure. So yeah, it was it was quite a lot of coding and I think in the last two years it has mainly changed to reviewing pull requests, marking the direction for the others, ⁓ so reviewing pull requests. 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:30.000 Artem Barmin (30:27) Mm-hmm. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.000 Marcin (30:52) let's structuring ideas for the new features, how they can be implemented. So yeah, that's, that's mostly it. And from the coding perspective, right now it's, I'm coding in, let's say in, different languages, but I'm still doing a lot of, a lot of pull requests, reviews in closure. So it's, 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:32.000 Artem Barmin (31:13) Mm-hmm. 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.000 Hmm. 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:34.000 Marcin (31:22) Yeah, and also cooperation with business. That's mostly Tassel.ly developer. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.000 Artem Barmin (31:25) You heard him. 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:36.000 You mentioned that the size of a Clojure team originally was pretty lean. What is the current size of a Clojure team? 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:37.000 Marcin (31:41) So currently it's me as lead developer ⁓ one closure developer that is doing the hard work, let's call it. So yeah, this guy is also really cool. He joined us, let's say, mid developer fresh after let's say junior. And I think that 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.000 Artem Barmin (31:46) Mm. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:40.000 ⁓ 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Marcin (32:10) project currently for him is a really nice sandbox for evolving his skills. that's how I'm viewing it. And in addition to that, have testers, automation and manual testers. We have also right now three DevOps guys. So yeah, that's how the team is structured right now. 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Artem Barmin (32:38) Mm-hmm. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.000 Mm-hmm. Three DevOps and one developer. Very interesting report. 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.000 Marcin (32:45) Yeah, 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:45.000 that's mostly because of the maturity of the referral network itself. We have delivered very cool features that required a lot of and a lot of closure coding for the past years. And right now, since the also objectives of the Dantons have ⁓ shifted, we basically 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.000 Artem Barmin (32:51) We're done. 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.000 yeah. 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.000 I hear you. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.000 Marcin (33:14) Well, it's not so easy. Actually, there's quite a lot of coding because, but for example, we are migrating to Rated from Composure API. So yeah, that's something new. We have to rebuild basically all our API. A lot definitely horrendous amount of work. So yeah, that's how it looks. 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:50.000 Artem Barmin (33:26) I think that's 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 I'm sorry. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:52.000 and why you decided to migrate from composure. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.000 Marcin (33:47) Well, I think actually I will start with the issue that in general the closure community has like the old but gold projects are dying out. So when I'm seeing that project isn't maintained for two years or that last patch was introduced, 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.000 Artem Barmin (34:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.000 Mm-hmm. 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.000 Marcin (34:15) year ago or that the team that is maintaining the library is shifting towards another project. I think that's a yellow light or in some cases a red light that we should make our make up our minds on what we need to do because some of the old projects have 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.000 Artem Barmin (34:30) Thank you. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:58.000 Hmm. 00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Marcin (34:45) all dependencies and we know how it's with all dependencies when they are not maintained. that's basically the idea behind the migrations changes in our libraries. 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.000 Artem Barmin (34:48) Before... ⁓ 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.000 I'm here. 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.000 Is it kind of security implication for these changes? 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Marcin (35:05) Yes, this is security implication. That's the one thing. And the other thing is also developer experience as with the new, with, with new libraries, I'm seeing ⁓ improved approach to some of the issues. ⁓ So like, I don't know, Stuart Sierra component has evolved into integrand, for example. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:04.000 Artem Barmin (35:21) Mm-hmm. 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:05.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:06.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:07.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.000 Marcin (35:34) So 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:09.000 like this part, but mainly it's ⁓ security ⁓ from this perspective, it's definitely security. 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Artem Barmin (35:43) I see. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:11.000 Very interesting because we've touched this question a lot in previous podcasts and it was never mentioned as a problem and it was mentioned like as a good thing. So it's not, know, it's kind of, it's done basically. This library is need, don't need to be changed at all. And you're saying about the security implication dependencies. Yeah. And it's pretty valid point. Very interesting. Do you have some... 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:12.000 Marcin (36:07) Mm-hmm. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:13.000 Artem Barmin (36:15) ⁓ security scanner in the system or maybe on the CI parts, the checking the dependencies. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:14.000 Marcin (36:22) So ⁓ 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.000 we have, I think it was Lane Ancient. So we have this in place, but we also from time to time have black box testing and white box testing from an external contractors that are trying to break stuff. 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.000 Artem Barmin (36:30) Mm-hmm. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.000 and 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:18.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:19.000 Marcin (36:47) And when they are scanning, like in the white box testing some of our dependencies, are... Basically, that when some senior manager gets a list with 10 critical severities from the NVD list, it gets nasty. And especially when you're running a law firm. 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.000 Artem Barmin (36:47) Mm-hmm. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.000 Yeah. 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:22.000 Hmm. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:23.000 guys. 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:24.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.000 Marcin (37:15) and handling sensitive data. It's important to keep everything secure. So we have those scans, I think, yearly right now. that's one of ⁓ our main coding tasks. yeah, keeping things secure, especially that, you know, 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Artem Barmin (37:27) I don't know. I don't know. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.000 Marcin (37:44) I think from what I'm seeing that the dangers that are hidden in the web and the new methods that are constantly being tried by malicious actors. Yeah, it's something that I think every everything needs to take care of because otherwise you end up like some vibe coded up. 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:30.000 Artem Barmin (38:00) and 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.000 Marcin (38:12) spitting out thousands of personal data and then it's good to be a law firm because you have lawyers that might handle the lawsuit but yeah, it's better not to. 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.000 Artem Barmin (38:12) That's it. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.000 Thank 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.000 Very interesting perspective. Probably first time I hear this kind of this point of view about the security. Aren't you afraid that every library enclosure ecosystem at some time will be abandoned? Because I've seen a lot of ⁓ kind of abandoned projects five years ago, last comets. 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.000 Marcin (38:51) ⁓ Yeah, that's something that I wouldn't like to see in the future. So fortunately, there is a new bank team. There is also guys from Metosyn. So I think that because Clojure is widely adapted also in banking and fintechs. 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Artem Barmin (38:57) Mm. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:37.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.000 Marcin (39:20) I think that we are good for some time. one thing is that it's very easy to write something in Lisp. Second thing is that when it gets to maintenance, you are getting into GitHub seeing that one maintainer. Imagine, ⁓ we based our all-away connectivity on this one. 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:40.000 Artem Barmin (39:23) ⁓ 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.000 Mm-hmm 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:42.000 Marcin (39:48) very neat library and this guy is being struck by a bus and you know, so that's another story. yeah, that's one of the things that makes me a bit nervous in like long lifespan of the application. 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Artem Barmin (39:52) Yeah. 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.000 I'm curious, is this ⁓ technical decisions pass some checklists from the, I don't know, procurement team, I don't know who is making the decisions. For example, one maintainer in the open source project should be forbidden probably. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Marcin (40:30) Yeah, so in Next Lower For All Network, the decisions are not made by the stars from GitHub, but I would, for example, if I see guys like, know, from the Closure Core team behind some of libraries, then... 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.000 Artem Barmin (40:42) Mm-hmm. 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:48.000 Hmm. 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Marcin (40:57) I'm feeling comfortable with using it. So we are picking, let's say libraries that are battle tested and not like some time ago I was doing a little bit with machine learning with Clojure. I wanted to see how it works and there are cool libraries, but you know, there was one guy maintaining it and he was selling books for his library. So somebody, you know, 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:50.000 Artem Barmin (41:00) It's not. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:51.000 Please leave me alone. 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:52.000 Mm-hmm. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.000 Marcin (41:27) ⁓ makes living off of it, but, ⁓ it works well. But, you know, many things can happen when you have like one king and ruler of, of some library. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:54.000 Artem Barmin (41:31) Thank you. ⁓ 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:55.000 It's coming. 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:56.000 Yeah, yeah. I heard the stories even about languages when one maintainer, ⁓ there was a Haskell inspired language for the front end. I don't remember its name, but I heard the story that one maintainer decided to change the roadmap and the way the language works and it basically breaks and the community was ⁓ disappointed. They created many forks, but no fork. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.000 was elected as a new king, so it just disappeared. Yeah, yeah, I can understand. It's worrying. 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.000 Vadym Kostiuk (42:23) And speaking of maintenance of the libraries, ⁓ guess same applies to the team and to the maintenance of the project itself. And you mentioned that the team is not pretty big in terms of the closure ⁓ engineers. However, at some point you probably have onboarded new people or will onboard new people. Can you maybe share in a few words, how do you do this? Like how do you ensure the knowledge transfer? 00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:59.000 ⁓ Maybe especially to the people who are our closure engineers. ⁓ Yeah, just how do you handle the situation on the project? 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Marcin (43:05) So situations where I do not have closure engineers, it's something that is really in front of me. So I need to show the project and the language and all the ecosystem to some of my friends from the global data services team that I'm currently in. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000 as we are sharing some of the responsibilities. So we are reducing the bus factor. So basically, think that the strongest part is to create docs, So with descriptions of like fire emergency situations, like critical procedures, and so everybody can 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 come in, run some CLI commands or ⁓ change some of the code in critical part, for example, certificate and put an application up to the speed. So ⁓ in general, sharing knowledge across teams are one hour every week for some period of time. And once you have... ⁓ 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000 I think experienced developers wrapping their mind around closure, especially if they were ⁓ doing some ⁓ functional stuff, for example, in JavaScript, they know the concepts carrying, et cetera, et cetera. It's quite simple, actually. That's what I'm thinking. And with the new developers, 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000 Artem Barmin (44:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.000 Marcin (45:02) that I'm introducing well. I think that I'm searching for a need to learn new stuff and not being discouraged because, know, like I have problems with parentheses, you know, it can be solved with one plugin into IDE. So that's how I'm perceiving it. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:06.000 Artem Barmin (45:12) Mm-hmm. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Marcin (45:29) I'm looking always when I'm showing this language or project to younger developers. I'm thinking how I started it. I wanted to learn, I wanted to learn new cool stuff and I'm searching for this in others. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:09.000 Artem Barmin (45:49) Interesting. Do you have some internal courses for the closure? Kind of changing the stack? ⁓ 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Marcin (46:02) Honestly, no, I don't have nothing internal like like courses. It's honestly, it's better to from my experience, better to meet and just point your finger at something that, you know, here is the part that you need to start from and you go up to the, you know, stack trace and you will find the root cause, you know, and how the application works. So I think that the 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.000 Artem Barmin (46:14) Good night. 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Marcin (46:30) ⁓ interaction between people is much better than watching a YouTube video. So that's how, in my opinion, courses end up. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.000 Artem Barmin (46:36) Uh-huh. 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:15.000 I see. Yeah. Especially in enclosure scripts, stack traces can be rather confusing. I remember using ⁓ Async, Core Async, and it was a really interesting experience to debug. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.000 Marcin (46:49) Yeah. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.000 Yeah, 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:18.000 you need to know how JavaScript works really, really well and how this whole loop of JavaScript events is being handled, cetera, and et cetera. Also React knowledge is really needed when you're working with Reagent. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.000 Artem Barmin (47:08) I'm not gonna use ⁓ 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Yeah, that's true. And speaking about other parts of the systems, aside of the closure, you mentioned already ⁓ Metabase. And I'm curious, you use some closure-specific databases like Datomic, maybe XTDB, or something like this? And can you elaborate a bit more about the whole technical stack of the project? ⁓ 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Marcin (47:43) So technical stack, we have Postgres as our database. we are using, ⁓ you know, I can fire up my ID and tell you more about dependencies if you would like to chat about the in general, I don't want to overshare. So we also have ⁓ Elasticsearch. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.000 Artem Barmin (47:50) Mm-hmm. 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.000 You're free. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.000 Yeah, that would be cool. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Of course. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Marcin (48:12) underneath for indexing and handling the data, reagent, reframe. We had Composure for quite some time and then Composure 2.0, alpha, and now Migrate Interacted. ⁓ And what do we have else there? You it's hard to... 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.000 Artem Barmin (48:12) I hear you. I hear you. 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:28.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.000 Uh-huh. ⁓ 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.000 ⁓ huh. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:31.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Marcin (48:41) tell this from out of memory, honestly. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.000 Artem Barmin (48:45) Yeah, frankly speaking, I think that's more than enough. You don't need to tell about all minor dependencies that you have. yeah. 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Marcin (48:52) okay, that's cool. Also, 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 I wouldn't get into details. yeah, that's mostly the app is, we always try to keep application really simple. you know, having a stack like Postgres Elastic and, you know, Clojure with some of the Java interrupts. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:36.000 Artem Barmin (48:56) Of course. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:38.000 Marcin (49:21) and also we also have Material UI on the front end. So, yeah, that's mostly it. I think worth of mentioning. 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.000 Artem Barmin (49:24) Mm-hmm. 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.000 I see. Very interesting. And can you tell maybe about ⁓ how do you keep the code base clean? How long the project exists actually? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.000 Marcin (49:45) ⁓ So 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.000 it's almost nine years. I think nine years. So ⁓ cleanups. I remember this like blog post about a crooked tree that is growing in the mountains. ⁓ So that's how it is with software projects that are running for multiple years. So 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:43.000 Artem Barmin (49:49) Nine years. 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.000 We 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:45.000 do. 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.000 Marcin (50:15) It's like that, you know, this project needed to withstand multiple differing business requirements, shifts in strategies, in the shape of the team. So the cleanups, well, we are, I don't know how to tell that, you know, just through. 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.000 Artem Barmin (50:24) Mm-hmm. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.000 Marcin (50:38) find the library, hit control F, replace everything with empty space and see what breaks them go after chase the rabbit, know, so until you eradicate the issue to the limits. So that's how the cleanups basically work, you know, so it requires a lot of work, but I think that the best example in such, you know, 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.000 Artem Barmin (50:41) huh. 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:50.000 I think. 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.000 Adieu. 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Marcin (51:07) cleanup stuff ⁓ is Facebook with PHP. They have chosen this technology at the very beginning and they decide we need to live with it. We've wrote so much stuff with PHP that we needed to write our own compiler. So that's how it is with, in my opinion, with software projects. If you decided to stick with something, 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:53.000 Artem Barmin (51:12) Thank you. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.000 Yeah. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.000 Mm-hmm. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:57.000 Marcin (51:34) the decision to just leave it alone and forget about it, know, it ends up with, in my opinion, more and more work than is necessary. you just need to, you know, hold your breath for a second when you're countered this... 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.000 awful function from this library that we should leave and eradicate two years ago, but there are more important things, especially to customers than one or five wasted minutes of looking into the function signature. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.000 Artem Barmin (51:59) Thank 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:00.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.000 Yeah, that's true, that's true. You know, from my experience, from what I've seen in some Clojure projects, especially that we built with a big team, with kind of turnaround, with the new guys coming in, and sometimes when they learn the Clojure, the power of Clojure, Macros, some advanced stuff, 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.000 They tend to over engineer things and to create ⁓ accidental complexity in the system. So have you meet such situations in your practice? 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.000 Marcin (52:55) Mmm. 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.000 Yeah, I think that it's when you will show macros to somebody, he will try to place them everywhere. When you will try to when somebody will see or is learning async, he will try to put async everywhere. So I think that the main goal is to keep every 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:05.000 Artem Barmin (53:22) Hey. ⁓ 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:06.000 Marcin (53:29) thing as simple as possible. That's one of the most important parts of, I think, Clojure talks ever, simple made easy. So that's how I'm seeing it. ⁓ 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.000 Artem Barmin (53:31) Mm-hmm. 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:08.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Marcin (53:48) Honestly, yeah, I think that I saw this practice where it's mostly related honestly to macros. When somebody sees macros, he's trying to find a place to put them. honestly, I am always trying to use functions in Clojure. If I can use a function, I'll use function. 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:10.000 Artem Barmin (53:59) Mm-hmm. 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.000 Marcin (54:17) Macros are reserved for special use cases in my opinion. So yeah, that's that. 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:13.000 Artem Barmin (54:29) I see. ⁓ Maybe you can tell about some ⁓ implications that were created by enterprise ecosystem that we are working in. maybe ⁓ something that's ⁓ best practice in the usual closure world are not applicable in the enterprise environment. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.000 Marcin (54:57) Honestly, to tell because in the referral network when I have started, we were operating quite like a startup. So we had startup ideas, more free will than you have in the enterprise where every decision needs to pass. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.000 Artem Barmin (55:12) Mm-hmm. 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:17.000 Marcin (55:26) a process in the referral network. We had a lot of free space to roam with new technologies, new libraries. So I think that's ⁓ the element that differs to structures, to organizations. So when I've shifted from 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:18.000 the referral network and jumped into more structured corporate environment. It was, you know, a little bit frustrating for me to see that, you know, I need to wait for someone to create a resource group for me. And it was, my God, so much time, like I could done this by myself, like in minutes or whatever. And it takes, you know, much longer. 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.000 Artem Barmin (55:59) We love you. 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Hmm. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:21.000 you 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.000 Marcin (56:23) But you know, we have the process. It was placed, the process was created for a reason. And, you know, for to prevent such developers as me to, you know, I have created like 10 resource group and this new Azure account is a mess. And, you know, it prevents you from, you know, doing like spawning some super GPU. 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:23.000 Artem Barmin (56:29) Uh-huh. 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:24.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.000 Mhm. 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:26.000 Marcin (56:52) ⁓ instances 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:27.000 for hosting static websites. that's how it looks. So very different approaches to problems. 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:28.000 Artem Barmin (57:01) We're here. 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:29.000 Very interesting that, you know, this very isolated department in the technical sense. So you are talking about, know... 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:30.000 Marcin (57:19) Yeah, so I don't want to get into politics, but I'm getting into that. In such big corporations, you can only imagine how such big corporations have different ventures, different departments, different offices, and in Dentons... 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:31.000 Artem Barmin (57:24) Mm-hmm. 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.000 Thank 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.000 Marcin (57:47) All of those offices have autonomy. So this is one of our main policies being polycentric. And that's how Dentons was growing for past years. We do not have like a single decisive center in the firm. ⁓ Each office is capable of... 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:34.000 doing its own ventures if they find it necessary, useful or whatever. like referral networks parked out of the global team, multiple regions in Dentons have their own ventures. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Artem Barmin (58:31) Mm-hmm. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:36.000 Vadym Kostiuk (58:36) That's actually interesting, like having this decentralization within the team. ⁓ 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.000 Marcin (58:41) Yeah, 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:38.000 that makes Denton special as a firm. So yeah, it's one of, I think, very interesting things about this firm itself. we do not have like Apple has Cupertino and there are just like everybody sits there and the decisions are flowing from there. It's very different in here. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:39.000 Artem Barmin (58:46) Mm-hmm. 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:40.000 Vadym Kostiuk (59:10) Yeah, that's, I guess it's really interested, like working in such a, in such team. ⁓ yeah. And, you know, while we were speaking about, ⁓ having problems with composure, ⁓ because of, of, ⁓ like security reasons and you had some audits that showed that, yeah, there are some dependencies. need to, ⁓ remove them. need to like solve them. ⁓ I was thinking. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.000 Artem Barmin (59:17) Hmm. 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:42.000 Vadym Kostiuk (59:40) If you may be like in the history of you working on a team, if you ever had a case when someone told you that we should think about moving from closure in general, because it's a liability or anything. mean, there are multiple reasons that might cause this discussion. Yeah, security itself. Have you ever had such conversation with anyone? 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.000 Artem Barmin (59:55) Security. 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.000 Marcin (1:00:05) Not exactly about security, but conversations about, let's say, simplifying the tech stack or ⁓ things like that. So the very best answer was that I have heard it was back when I wasn't a lead developer. I think it was my second or third year. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.000 Artem Barmin (1:00:15) You 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:46.000 Marcin (1:00:31) is that, okay, so what do we want to do? Do we migrate to WordPress with Google Sheets? So that's in general my answer. So if somebody asks me to change the test stack, I'm saying I'm asking to what, what's the plan? And usually then the ⁓ conversation goes into other direction. 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.000 Artem Barmin (1:00:52) Mm-hmm. 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:48.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.000 Marcin (1:00:59) because it's very easy to question something and it's very hard to put something in place. if somebody would told me, we need to migrate to this and that, what is the cost effect? So we will waste, I don't know how many weeks, months, time, and we will achieve maybe the same thing or maybe something worse. ⁓ 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:50.000 Artem Barmin (1:01:13) Mm-hmm. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.000 Cheers. 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.000 Marcin (1:01:28) Yeah, that's in general, my response. What will be the cost effect? What will achieve? That's how it ends. 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:54.000 Artem Barmin (1:01:33) Mm-hmm. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.000 Vadym Kostiuk (1:01:42) Yeah, that's interesting. know, we just, ⁓ I was thinking maybe you had such conversations. ⁓ Because, ⁓ but I see that Dintoss is not like the other enterprise environments that you worked before, because we used to work with enterprise where like the decisions are made from the top to the bottom. And it's not such a decentralized force. 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:56.000 Artem Barmin (1:01:50) Mm-hmm. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Mm-hmm. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:58.000 Vadym Kostiuk (1:02:11) within the team. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.000 Artem Barmin (1:02:13) Yeah, very interesting culture. 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:00.000 Marcin (1:02:16) Yeah, so 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.000 a lot of things in Dentons are actually coming from the bottom. people, you know, at least for me in here, the culture in this firm is absolutely amazing. It's as I'm working here, it's a great thing to experience. like people that, you know, we can call it flat structure of the firm in some cases, but 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Artem Barmin (1:02:21) Mm-hmm. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.000 Marcin (1:02:46) I think that, let's call it like people at the normal worker level are always being heard by people at the top. So yeah, that's how the world looks. 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Artem Barmin (1:03:00) And talking about moving from the closure, have you ever discussed the problems with recruiting, with finding new talents for the closure? 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.000 Marcin (1:03:15) Yeah, so that's one of, in my opinion, biggest pain points of closure in general. in my opinion, it's very good in this ecosystem to keep very friendly relations with other developers because you don't know when you will need help. 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.000 Artem Barmin (1:03:21) Mm-hmm. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:07.000 Yeah. 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:08.000 Marcin (1:03:42) So that's my opinion about that. yeah, it's honestly, it's quite hard to find somebody that is willing to basically has the skill or is willing to learn this technology as its niche. So that's actually hard. So we often had to... 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:09.000 Artem Barmin (1:03:56) Uh-huh. 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.000 is real. 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:12.000 Marcin (1:04:09) We're often in situation where we need to ask contractors ⁓ for some help because we had some issues with finding somebody right away or the recruitment processes were taking very long. yeah, we need more people ⁓ in closure. That's my opinion. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:13.000 Artem Barmin (1:04:18) Mm-hmm. 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.000 Yeah, yeah, it's really hard to f- 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:16.000 Marcin (1:04:39) But 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.000 it's also like, how to put it, I found that people that are writing closure are approaching some problems in a different way than the others. it makes, think, 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:18.000 Artem Barmin (1:04:58) Yeah. Definitely. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.000 Marcin (1:05:07) those developers are available as it's the language and the methodologies provide different mindset. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.000 Artem Barmin (1:05:10) I hear you now. 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:21.000 Yeah, we discussed this a lot and you've noticed that Clojure works as a filter for developers. So the guys who still learned Clojure, they are pretty good in general in development, not only in Clojure, but even in other technical stacks. Yeah. Hmm. Very interesting. ⁓ Okay. So let's move to another block. 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:22.000 Marcin (1:05:27) Yeah, that's true. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.000 Artem Barmin (1:05:45) of questions and the name of our podcast is Clojure in product, would you do it again? So that's the main question. Would you do it again or would you start a new project in Clojure if you asked, for example, ⁓ Marcin, let's create some new module or new project in the company? So would you suggest Clojure as a technical stack? 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:24.000 Marcin (1:06:13) It depends. It's not an easy, the answer is not easy. So in Dendons, in my current firm, I think that it will be hard to recommend this language as I know, let's say after all those years, I know the firm very well and I know that people in here are using different text stacks usually. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.000 Artem Barmin (1:06:15) Hmm. 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:26.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Marcin (1:06:42) And considering all business related topics, as we were speaking previously, it's hard to find somebody. And in my opinion, in such big firms, it's very important to be able to reach out for people from basically the job market. 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:28.000 Artem Barmin (1:06:53) Mm-hmm. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:29.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:30.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:31.000 Marcin (1:07:12) ⁓ 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:32.000 so we, it's much easier to find, ⁓ someone that is writing, example, C sharp or third type script. ⁓ if I would be running startup, ⁓ and I would like, you know, ⁓ how, this Western was called seven magnificent or something like that. And I would have to pick like, ⁓ seven really good developers for a startup. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:33.000 Artem Barmin (1:07:20) Mm-hmm. 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:34.000 Thank you. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:36.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:37.000 Marcin (1:07:40) I think that I would recommend the closure. So ⁓ it depends on the scale. It depends on what you want to achieve on goals, strategy. ⁓ Yeah, so it's not easy decision. 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:38.000 Artem Barmin (1:07:46) Mm-hmm. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:39.000 We should. 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:40.000 I see, I see. Very wise answer. Very interesting. You're probably the first one who not ⁓ said definitely yes. But your answer is more complex. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:41.000 Marcin (1:08:09) It's a bold statement, definitely. 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:42.000 I'm also considering closure. I was thinking before this podcast about that. So it's, in my opinion, when you had this Star Wars scene when Luke meets Obi-Wan for the first time and he shows him the lightsaber. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:43.000 Artem Barmin (1:08:32) That's right. 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:44.000 Marcin (1:08:38) What is 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:45.000 Artem Barmin (1:08:43) and 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:46.000 Mm-hmm. 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:47.000 ⁓ 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:48.000 Yeah. analogy. Maybe you have some words to people that are listening to us right now. Maybe from enterprise, maybe they are thinking, maybe they want to try Clojure for some microservice because sometimes Clojure brings as a microservice language when you don't need to think a lot about big things. Maybe. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Marcin (1:09:12) Wow. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:50.000 Yeah, so what I like to say, to people that haven't tried Clojure, definitely try it. It's a great language that will change your viewpoint on multiple problems. And basically it will make your better developer. And for people that are already running Clojure, let's spread the word about this language. 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:51.000 Artem Barmin (1:09:32) I'm fine with yours. 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.000 Marcin (1:09:58) ⁓ and stick together. That's it. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:53.000 Artem Barmin (1:10:03) Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:54.000 Let's build the job market together. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Marcin. It was really interesting, know, very unusual point of view on the state, ⁓ on the way, how do you approach ⁓ the technical things. And basically that's it. And I want to thank you that you joined podcast. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:55.000 Marcin (1:10:08) Ha 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:56.000 Artem Barmin (1:10:31) that you share all this knowledge, all this insights about the enterprise usage. And thank you, basically. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:57.000 Marcin (1:10:41) Thank you. Thank you, Artem. Thank you, Vadim. 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:58.000 Vadym Kostiuk (1:10:42) Yes. Thank you very much, Marcin. 00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.000 ⁓ Yeah, it was nice to hear about Dentons and how you use Clojure and the history. yeah, special thanks to our audience as well. So until next time. 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:00.000 Artem Barmin (1:10:50) Hmm. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:01.000 Yeah, until next time, bye. See you. 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:02.000 Marcin (1:10:58) See you.