Good morning everyone, welcome to Art Unframed.
Today we'll be talking about art as activism and its impact.
Right here with me today is my guest, Leslie Spurlock, an amazing documentary photographer and photojournalist.
Good morning, Leslie. Good morning. How are you today and everybody else? I'm happy to be here and what a perfect time for this space.
Thank you, Leslie. It's an honor to interview you and get to know more about you.
I would like to also introduce my co-host, Kafani. Hello, Kafani. Can you tell everyone what to say?
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Art on Frame. I am Kafani Vulcan’s co-host.
And yeah, I am Kafani, an artist and photographer from Nigeria.
My story is based on my African sensibility, my African culture, my emotions and just basically fun things I like to do.
Yeah, I am mostly inspired from me not wanting to be bored. I don't know if you understand that, but yeah, welcome everybody to our space.
And yeah, I hope you guys enjoy what we have for you today. Hi, Leslie. Hope you've been well. And yeah.
Thank you, Kafani. Leslie, you create stunning works of photography and your work is so intense.
I would like to first start by asking how you got into photography and like the first time you picked a camera.
Yeah, I got into photography back in I think it was 1985. So I've been around for a while.
I was actually going to school for communications and to college for communications.
But I decided I out of the blue wanted to work for Rolling Stone magazine because I wanted to photograph Sting.
So I thought, well, I actually wanted to meet him. So I figured the best way to do that was to be a photographer for Rolling Stone magazine.
So that's when I changed my whole life and my career path. And so I got a camera. I enrolled in college for photography and it was back in film days.
And I ended up deciding that I didn't want to work for Rolling Stone magazine, but I wanted to be a photojournalist.
So long story short, but yeah, that's how I actually got into it and have just had a passion for it ever since.
So it's been a long, long time.
That's great. So in your time in like going to school and photography, was there particularly something that you picked up?
Let's say that kind of music stand out from someone like self-taught?
I will say probably, well, the thing about going to school is that we were able to study all different genres of photography.
And that was, I mean, part of our course, what we had to do. So I was able to eliminate the things that I didn't want to do because I tried them and I realized they weren't for me.
So from there, I was able to decide what it is I actually wanted to do in photography.
And we also learned back in the day, it was film day. So I learned all about developing and stuff. And since it was film days, I also learned how to set my settings and stuff like that manually.
Because you had no idea what you were going to get until you developed the film.
So I was able to learn how to properly expose things without looking at the back of my LCD or whatever.
Now I can go into a situation and I know pretty precisely what it is I need to put my settings at and stuff. So that helped a lot.
And I also learned just a lot of camaraderie in the photography world. So it was great meeting other photographers, people that had all different types of desires within photography.
And it was just it was such a great learning experience. I only went to school for it. It was a community college. So it was a two year two year school. So after that, everything else I learned on my own.
Thank you for sharing, Leslie. During your time covering Black Lives Matter and the events in Haiti, what other places that you've covered, what moments impacted you the most in those places?
Probably the moments that impacted me the most were covering both of those places because it was when I when I first covered Haiti.
That's when I came to the real. I mean, I was pretty I wasn't young, but I guess I was somewhat naive in a sense that I thought people cared.
And covering Haiti, I realized the world really didn't care. And it made me sick to my stomach. So that definitely had an impact on me.
And also covering Black Lives Matter, it was seeing all the injustice and seeing the way people were treated.
It just you go into a situation as a photojournalist having to be neutral, but in your heart and in your soul, you know who you're rooting for, you know, but you still have to cover things from both sides.
But it was it was a wide awakening. It was a moment in history that I really thought things would change and some things did, but not enough.
And, you know, you realize how far we still have to go. So those are two things that I covered that had the most impact on me.
I've covered other places, but definitely those two places and movements were definitely where I learned my lessons about humanity.
Thank you.
So how do you balance capture and truth without intruding of any of others people's life?
For me, when I go into a situation, you know, I try my best to get to know the people and to know where they're coming from. And then eventually, you know, they just accept me and know that I'm there, but they really end up not paying attention.
So I'm able to just, you know, cover whatever I want to cover. And that's what I really try to do. I try to be just an obtrusive and out of their way.
But at the same time, being in the forefront, being up there close, but they actually end up eventually dislike not even realizing I'm there because they're busy with whatever it is they're doing, whether it's covering it, whether it's, you know, a disaster, a protest.
You know, they have things that they have to do. And I try to not be in their way, but I try to tell their story. So yeah, that's what those are some of the things.
Thank you.
I do want to open up with one quote that I posted today on Facebook. It's from Toni Morrison. And I think this is the perfect time because right now things are just chaotic right now in the US, given the election.
So I just want to open up with this by Toni Morrison. This is precisely the time when artists go to work. There is no time for despair, no place for self pity, no need for silence, no room for fear.
We speak, we write, we do language. That is how civilizations heal.
Yes.
Yes, that's right.
Okay, sorry.
Yeah, you can go first.
Oh, don't worry. You can go. I wanted to comment on what she said and then ask a question.
Okay.
Yeah, I just wanted to say that, yeah, it's during this moment where people are with your skills and different what type of things happening in the world.
That is where artists can lend their voice by telling stories out there. At the same time, making an impact through their work. And you do that, Leslie. Thank you.
I'd like to pass it to Tafani.
Yeah, Leslie, you've actually always been an inspiration with how you tell your story, because I'm also a communication student and I'm studying photojournalism right now, and I'm really trying to practice it.
But then I wanted to ask, yeah, like how do you deal with like the challenge of censorship, and like finding the right way to tell a sensitive story.
And maybe I don't know with or without consent or like, you know, some people don't want their stories to be told, or, you know, I don't know how do you just deal with that sensitive issue of telling the story in the right way when your story is sensitive.
Do you get the question?
Yeah.
In that case, sorry I got read for a minute there.
In that case, I, it just depends on the situation, really, but I try to be sensitive of people.
If they don't want their story told, then that's fine. I'm not going to just shove my camera in their face and do that.
I guess I learned a long time ago, what was important to me, and I used to go out with a television news photographer back when I was in school days.
He would take me out while he was covering the news so I could see, you know, how they did it.
And I saw this, this wreck, and it was a horrible wreck and the person was covered in a sheet. And, you know, there were photographers in people's faces and same with a house fire that that killed some children.
And I didn't feel right shoving my camera into their faces at all. And I realized at that point, you know, I didn't really want to be a news photographer in that sense.
I wanted to tell stories that people needed to get out there, stories that like protests where they want the world to know what's happening.
As far as injustices, I cover stories like in Haiti, where there were injustices happening, where people where there was a flood that killed, you know, over 3000 people and they wanted their story out there.
So those are the type of stories I tend to go with. I have the luxury of not working on contract.
I'm a freelance photojournalist, so I can pick and choose what I cover. And I like I like it that way.
I'd rather not work for someone that they tell me what to do because I don't feel right.
In some cases, sticking my camera in people's faces, I want to tell stories that the world needs to know and that people want told.
So that's usually how I handle things. Now, there are times where, you know, when I'm covering a protest, if there's violence happening, then I will photograph it, whether or not they want me to, because, you know, it needs to be out there.
It needs to be shown what's happening. And that typically happened on one specific side.
So people need to know that that's happening. So there are times where I just have to do it.
But most of the time, I'm very sensitive to people and their feelings. Like I'm actually heading to Morocco next weekend.
And I've already been I found out that people don't like their photos taken there because they think that it steals their soul.
So I'm going to be very respectful of that culture and I'm not going to do it without asking.
And if they let me do it, great. If not, then, you know, I move on.
That's that's one of the challenges you have to face as a documentary photographer.
Another thing I would like to say is like we are in the field. What's your approach to getting those shots?
Like, how do you like go about it?
For me, like, it just depends on what it is I'm covering.
You know, if I'm covering a disaster or something like that, I try to live among the people.
And I try to tell their story from their side of what's happening.
Like when when I cover hurricanes.
A lot of the time, if I can, I try to stay with the family so I can feel what they're actually feeling and not stay in some fancy hotel that's protected and stuff like that,
because I don't think that I can feel what they're feeling as much in that case.
When I went to Haiti to cover the flood, you know, I stayed among the people when I covered the rebels.
I lived with the rebels. I lived in the slums of Haiti, you know, so I knew exactly what was happening and what what they were going through.
So I try to do that whenever I can. And, you know, I try to understand the story, all sides of the story.
I do a lot of research beforehand and I do stuff like that.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Um, yeah, I'm Leslie. I, um, I get the point. So he said, oh, you stay with the family and stuff.
I wanted to ask, like, are there like safety precautions you take when you want to like stay with the family or like stay in a place where like a hurricane is happening?
Because, you know, in this part of the world, we don't actually experience stuff like that.
So I would like to know what you experience or like any safety precaution you take while a disaster is happening, although you try to take the picture you want to take.
Well, you always try to be as safe as you can. I don't take a lot of safety precautions.
Like one time I was staying with a family in a church during a hurricane and we were supposed to get a 25 foot storm surge.
So, you know, I told them I said we need to get a ladder so we can get up on the roof when the storm surge hits and stuff like that.
So, you know, I tried to make sure we all took precautions in that sense.
And, you know, I do prepare by bringing things like, you know, gas tanks and stuff like that, extra water, not just for me, but for anybody that might need it, extra supplies and stuff like that.
When you're in the disasters, you end up losing usually, of course, electricity.
You lose a lot of the time you lose water. Sanitation becomes an issue and there's no gas around.
So you have no cell service or anything. So we try to prepare ourselves for that scenario because it happens every time.
And the few times that I've stayed in in hotels, they were hotels that were dead center and they ended up like one of them got hit really hard.
Our ceiling in our room, they had to move us because there was we got a hole in our ceiling and water was coming in and stuff.
So they ended up kicking us out because it wasn't safe.
So, you know, we just we try to do whatever we can to make ourselves safe. But at the same time, we're usually in the same boat as all the other people that are having to live through it.
You know, it's the safest thing during a hurricane is evacuation. And, you know, obviously, I'm going into the hurricane. So that's not a very safe, safe measure.
But, you know, you just do the best that you can do.
Basically, when I was living with the rebels, I actually I had never done photojournalism before. So I went in there without any kind of idea as to what was going to happen.
No preparation whatsoever, except for knowing, you know, I did my research about what was happening and stuff like that.
I did not have bulletproof vests. All the guys I was with had bulletproof vests at the time, though, the bulletproof vests that they had were so heavy, I couldn't have worn them anyways.
Nowadays, you know, I do have bulletproof vests. I have a grade six helmet. You know, I have gas masks.
I have stuff like that now if I need any of that stuff. So but at the time, I didn't.
And luckily, you know, they protected me as best as they could.
But, you know, I would be in gun battles and stuff completely without any kind of protection at all, except for the guys that I was with that were protecting me.
So, yeah, I kind of went into it blindly. But, you know, I survived. So I'm surprised at all the things that I've survived.
But, you know, I did. So we'll see if I keep surviving.
Do you still like when you think about others?
The dangers that you have to face? Do you? Does it like stop you from taking off the camera to tell your stories?
No, not usually, because I figure if other people have to live these dangers, then the least I can do is tell what they're going through and try to make the world care on their behalf.
It's just it's something that's just my calling. So, you know, it is what it is.
But at the same time, I will say there was one time where I was almost actually one of the times that I was almost killed.
And I actually my friend and I were hiding in an open storage room that the one of the residents pulled me into because this guy was shooting at us.
And at that point, I stopped taking pictures because I was afraid for my life.
He was actually targeting me and my friend. And had I stayed out there taking pictures, I would have been dead for sure.
So so in that in that case, I did put down the camera.
And I always said to myself, you know, I die for a Pulitzer. But that day I decided not to die for a Pulitzer.
So, you know, it just depends on the situation. But most of the time, you know, I do put myself in danger and I go in knowing that if I die, you know, at least maybe my images will help someone.
That's good. I feel like that's what.
Like the greatest strengths of someone like being afraid, but still being able to do it anyway.
Like, yeah, that's very.
That's that's very huge strengths to have.
Like trying to like being being vulnerable with those people didn't make those people like trust you to take those pictures.
I mean, like living in this situation with them, like being exposed to the dangers they were in.
It didn't make them like it was like they didn't give them the trust, like to trust you to to continue taking those shots.
Oh, yeah, most definitely.
I've been very lucky in that majority of the time.
I don't know. I just I get along with people pretty well and they do tend to trust me. But but when you spend more time with them, then you gain more and more trust.
So when I was, for example, when I was with the rebels, there was a time where they were about to execute someone and they still let me take the pictures.
You know, they may not have had they not trusted me because it did make them look bad.
But they knew I was there to do that.
And they allowed me to do that despite the fact that it might make them look bad.
And same with, you know, sometimes during protests.
Now, there were times during protests where people had had not known me and, you know, they were suspicious.
But I did end up gaining the trust most of the time.
There was one time where I didn't. But most of the time I do end up getting gaining their trust, the more time I spend with them.
Yeah, I wanted to say, your life sounds so interesting and like really cool.
Something out of a movie. I don't think I can do it by myself, but it's like really interesting to hear is because you said that, oh, you I feel like as a photographer, I can say I would die for photography.
But I don't think in that moment, I feel like if I was one that almost died for photography, I feel like I might wake up one morning and say, oh, no, I'm not doing this thing again.
Because it's very, very scary how your life can fly before your eyes for something that you enjoy.
But like, I don't think I can do it. But like, it sounds really cool and sounds like really fun in a way because I'm not really a documentary person because I feel like I would want to do it.
But I don't know how to like talk to people that I want to take pictures of them.
And I don't know how it is abroad, but in Nigeria, most people would not want you to take pictures of them.
Like you can ask Zulkan or like any Nigerian here. Most people would not want you to take pictures of them randomly.
I like it's just a whole big thing. So I find it really hard to like document people's life here.
So like, it's very interesting that you do that. And the way you describe it is really, really fun and very, very inspiring.
I wish I could do that. Honestly, I want to ask if there is like any photo you are most proud of, like a picture you've taken that you're like, wow, I don't know if you have any picture like that.
But I would love to hear about it.
Yeah, I mean, there's two that's well, probably three that stand out for me.
The first one is the one that's on my pin post. The first one that you see of a Haitian street kid in Haiti in front of the presidential palace.
And that one, I just there's something in his eyes, you know, and it's a photo that I that I think shows so much.
But yet without disrespecting him at all. So that's one of my favorites.
The portrait I did of the last shaman at this village in the Amazon, because you can just see the sorrow in her eyes that she was.
She's the last shaman that they're going to have in that in that village in the Amazon, because the kids don't want to learn shamanism.
And so you could just see that again in her eyes.
And then finally, I think there are some pictures from the Black Lives Matter protests that I think speak to what the protests was trying to do and speak to, you know, the power and the resistance and speaking out for injustice.
I think some of those photos as well.
I will always feel like are some of my most powerful photos. Yeah, that's it. That's probably the ones that stand out the most.
Yeah, thank you.
If you could like photograph one historical event, what would it be? What would it be?
That's a tough one.
One historic event.
You know, I would normally say the Holocaust because we needed those photos, but I don't think I don't think I could have witnessed that without trying to save all the people.
It would have been really, really tough.
So I would have to say, I would really have loved to have photographed Martin Luther King.
That to me would have been just amazing when he, you know, was in Washington, D.C. That moment in history.
It's just, I mean, it gives me chills thinking about it. So I definitely would have loved to have been there to photograph that.
That's great. Do you find yourself like personally attached with all your shots?
Or like just some shots that you're just kind of like taking for documenting purposes? Or do you feel like it's personal with you? You know, the shots that you take?
Yeah, I mean, I do feel like they're personal because I do get attached to the people and I do feel for the people.
I'm a little different from some photojournalists in that way because, you know, they've had to harden themselves and try to because they have to.
I mean, these are war photographers that cover things day in and day out. And so they have to become somewhat hardened.
But I don't do it as often as they do. And so and I pick and choose what I cover.
So I do get emotionally attached, even though I still photograph, you know, both sides of the story.
I try to be neutral in my coverage. But yet I do feel so personably about some things, you know, mostly to me.
The things that I want to cover are things that I feel where my where my images will actually maybe maybe make a difference and make the world care.
That's the type of work that I want to do and want to photograph, because that to me, it just speaks to my soul.
I just want I just want humanity to actually care about people, you know. And so that's what I try to do with all of my my images that I do in these type of circumstances.
So I do feel personally about so much of the stuff that I cover.
Thank you, Leslie. Um, Kaffani, the question.
Yeah, Leslie, thank you so much for like you said.
And yeah, talking about humanity, I saw that you said in a tweet like a while ago, you wanted to start like a nonprofit and stuff like I don't know if it's like personal or you want to talk about it right now.
But if you do want to talk about it right now, I would like to know like what you like what you want that nonprofits to be about.
Like, I know you're big on helping people. You're big on documenting people and stuff.
So I would like to know what's that you know what you would like your future nonprofit organizations to cut it to.
I don't know if you'd want to talk about it, but it's fine if you do not.
Yeah, yeah. So this is the reason why I haven't started one yet, because there is so there are so many different things that I want to do in terms of a nonprofit that I can't narrow it down to just one.
So and I can't start with trying to do a bunch of stuff. You know, you have to concentrate on one.
And I just haven't been able to decide which one there's so much I want to do. I want to do disaster relief.
I want to help people in other countries in some way. I want to teach photography to kids that in impoverished areas throughout the world.
You know, there's just so much that I want to do. And I want to do things with climate and stuff like that.
And, you know, the Amazon stuff. So there's so much that I want to do.
I just can't narrow it down now to which right now to which, you know, I think will be the first one and will be the most important one, because to me right now, I mean, they're all so important.
So I just don't know yet.
Yeah, Leslie does like really, really beautiful because each and every one of them, which of the things you listed are really equally important and like really beautiful.
I want to help those kind of people. And yeah, I actually like investing like not investing basically like collaborating and helping out with nonprofits organizations in Nigeria.
And yeah, I don't know if you like we probably when you start your own, if you'd be willing, you know, you say you wanted to teach kids photography and stuff.
I don't know if you'd be willing to like collaborate with other people, maybe other photographers, other creatives. I don't know if you'd be willing to do that.
You know, if you or if or when you start a nonprofit. But like I feel like it's like something I would love to be part of.
And yeah, that's all I have to say.
Tafani, I would absolutely 100 percent love to do that. We definitely need to talk.
Yeah, we do. We do. We really do.
Yeah, but like, you know, I don't know since the first time we met, I've always told you that I'm shy to enter the DMs.
Well, OK, I will actually definitely text you one of these days to just talk about it and talk about photography in general.
You are really, really awesome. Honestly, Leslie, I don't know if people tell you that.
I'm shy to enter the DMs. I'll try. I'll try.
Leslie, another question for you.
And yeah, I think I really think it's really good. I want to photograph my little king.
I don't know. I don't really know about him. I've heard about him. I feel like I'm supposed to know about him, but I do not.
So, yeah, I don't know. Roka, do you have another question for Leslie?
I guess if I have one, if you could photograph, sorry, I wanted to say like, have there been a moment where you wanted to like put down the camera?
Like moments at the point of your journey where you wanted to put down the camera, you wanted to like give up the camera?
There were moments where I lost motivation and I everything became because back back in the day, I ended up having to shoot weddings and stuff like that.
So I lost my passion. So there was moments like that where I was just like, this has become a business and it's no longer a passion for me.
There were times where I was covering things and, you know, I was in tears as well.
And I would put down my camera during those times. I covered, they gave me access to a domestic shelter here in Texas.
And for the first week, I did not pull out my camera at all. I just listened to the women there and their stories.
Some of them, you know, had been all of them were abused. Some of them were even prostitutes.
And I just listened to them and what they had to go through. I also did a story on sex workers in Haiti.
And for the first part, you know, I just listened to them and did not pull out my camera at all.
But a lot of times there are times where I'm distraught as well. And it's hard to pull out your camera sometimes in those in those times.
But eventually you do have to pick it up again and you do have to continue to tell the story.
But there are definitely times where, you know, I've cried.
I remember when I was covering a hurricane and we were heading to this one area after the hurricane hit.
And I ran into a mom and a daughter, an older mom and an older daughter, and they had broken down.
Their car had broken down. We tried to give them some of our gas, but their gas tank was broken.
So we took them back to their house to see what their house looked like. And it was completely destroyed.
And it was it was one of those times where I mean, we just sat there and, you know, I was crying with them.
It was it was so hard. So for the first few moments, I did not take any photos and I grieved with them.
And then, you know, you have to pick up the camera and you have to tell the story.
And they wanted their story told, you know, and I'm still friends with them to this day. So, yeah.
The funny and we did end up bringing them back to our hotel room so they could stay.
And then we got them. We ended up getting them a meal from Chef Jose Andre World World Food Kitchen, World Central Kitchen.
And then they housed them as well. So, yeah, we did try to get them help and we managed to get them some help.
Yeah, that's very awesome, Leslie. And I, for one, can relate to you.
I don't I would not say hate, but like I don't even know the words to use for wedding photography.
I feel like I always tell people that I don't think I can ever do wedding photography because it doesn't doesn't make me feel happy or like it's my passion and stuff.
But then people are like, oh, yeah, wedding photography, there's money in it and stuff like that.
But I personally I personally don't think I can do wedding photography. So I 100 percent relate with you on that one.
I feel like if it comes to a point in my life where I have to do wedding photography, I would really be sad. I would literally cry.
I don't think I can do it. But yeah, I'm really glad that you did not give up.
And then because you did not give up, we got to meet you like, you know, down down the line of future and stuff.
And yeah, I wanted to ask if what you feel like your work would accomplish in the long run or if you have already accomplished what you thought your work would accomplish in the long run.
I have not even come close to accomplishing what I hope to accomplish.
You know, there's only so much each of us can do. But if we all do a little part of it, we may not see the results of what we're doing.
But eventually the world might see it. That's my hope and my dream.
But, you know, I'm just going to continue to try to do what I'm doing to try and help other people.
And even though I may not see the impact, hopefully, eventually that impact will be felt by, if not, you know, one person, maybe many people, who knows.
But yeah, I'm nowhere near doing accomplishing what I hope to accomplish.
I don't think I don't know. I think a lot of us are nowhere near, you know, what we hope to accomplish. We all have big, big hopes and dreams. And, you know, hopefully we will all accomplish them at some point.
But, you know, my main thing is to try and make the world a better place. And so even if I can change the world for one person, maybe that's something.
Thank you, Leslie. And I want to talk about your journey in the web space and NFTs making use of digital platforms.
Have your experience been putting out your photojournalism pictures out there? How has your experience been so far?
You know, it's been it's been off and on. There's there's still a lot of people that don't appreciate photojournalism, but there are some that do.
And so I continue for those people that do. I know I'm one that does highly appreciate photojournalism, activism, photography or activism art.
I have been able to collect a lot of activism pieces from artists, not necessarily.
You know, I've collected as much photojournalism as I found that I could afford, but I've also collected from a lot of other types of artists that are trying to fight for a better life for themselves and for others.
I love being able to collect that type of work and helping in that sense.
But, you know, we still have a long way to go. And I feel like in the coming days, we'll see more and more of that type of work coming out, hopefully, because, you know, things are happening in this world that shouldn't be happening.
And so hopefully, you know, we can spread it through our art and we'll see.
I have no idea. And this space has been great for the fact that we can help other people in other countries and even in our country by supporting these nonprofits and stuff like that and actually supporting other artists that are having to flee countries and stuff.
It's been great in that sense. You know, we've come together as a community to help out other people.
And to me, that's one of the greatest things about Web3 is that we've been able to do that.
And we've actually been able to personally help individual artists as well, like when I said fleeing the country and stuff like that.
So it's been great for that.
Yes. One of the things I love about this space is the aspect of us being able to support ourselves, regardless of where we come from, being able to have empathy for someone in another place, even though we are not from there.
As we can see with what you've been doing, doing the earthquake at Syria, sorry, Turkey, the test wicked events that happened, and then there are other events that happened.
So which platform do you think particularly prove more effective in carrying out your cause? I mean, like, in order to support people because I know that Tezos have been very effective.
And yeah, which other one of them? Do you find Tezos like the best place to get that particular type of traction?
Yeah, I mean, I think Tezos has been the absolute best as far as that goes, because the community there is very caring and they come together and they create these like test quake aid and stuff like that.
And it's been very effective. And it's been amazing. I'm not familiar with a lot of other actual platforms that have been doing that.
You know, there are people that have started things. But as far as a platform itself, I think Tezos has been great for that. And I hope they continue to be great for that.
That's one of the reasons why I'm still on Tezos.
Yeah, I like the aspect of being able to buy an open edition to support a cause. And the test quake aid, I've been able to effectively do that without having to worry about gas fees and everything.
Yeah, and that particular type of effort was like little drops of water making my motion.
Another question I would like to ask would be, let me see.
I wanted to ask, yeah. Do you have any advice for like budding or like upcoming or like people that want to go into photojournalism or like maybe photographers?
Do you have any advice to give all of us, including myself?
Well, I can give advice as far as photojournalism. If you even consider that or think you want to do that, you need to have a huge passion for it.
There isn't much money there. So you're not going to get fame and fortune from it by any sense of the matter.
But you also have to pay your way a lot of the time and do things on spec. You have to hire fixers sometimes on spec. So you have to know that going into it.
You should probably not do what I did and just jump right into it. You know, I got lucky and, you know, I survived. But that doesn't mean that that everybody would.
It's definitely something you have to have within your soul and your heart. Otherwise, I suggest you don't get into that.
As far as photography goes, just, you know, explore different genres, see what you like, see what your passion is.
I always say to people that in general, you should always do what your passion is. If that means scaling down your life, at least you'll be happy because you're doing your passion and you're not working in some job that you absolutely hate just for the money.
And, you know, a lot of people get sucked into that and they're miserable. And, you know, I don't think anybody should do that. I've always encouraged my kids, you know, do whatever is in their heart and whatever they have the passion for.
And, you know, with at least you'll be happy.
That's very awesome. That's very, very good to hear. But in this country, in Nigeria, especially today, like this year has been like one of the toughest.
And I heard that in general, like everywhere in the world is suffering from like maybe bad economy or something. I don't know how true that is.
But then it's very hard to tell your Nigerian parents that, oh, I want to do something for passion because even when I told them I wanted to do this photography for my passion.
But also it's not as easy as we make it sound sometimes. It's very hard to tell somebody that, oh, that you have to do something that you're passionate for that there will not be money there because let's not lie.
Everybody needs money. Let's not lie. Especially in this country, you can't survive in this country without money. Like there's no how. Like there's no really how.
Like there is no like the government are not providing for you. Like nothing, nothing, nothing. There's nothing for you. You have to struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle.
So most people like going taking professional courses and stuff. So it's really hard to see photographers in Nigeria.
And even when you see photographers in Nigeria, it's very sad to see that nobody really cares about photography in Nigeria.
They feel like, oh, you're a photographer. Like when you say a photographer is as if you're saying like, oh, maybe a mechanic.
Even if you say, yeah, what's the name mechanic? It's like, they're like, it's just, she means just click a button and then you bring pictures.
I can do it basically. And then I don't know if you know the equivalence of like how long the Naira is right now.
If you want to take a photograph of somebody, they can tell you that, oh, they'll pay you 150 Naira.
And that 150 Naira is like, I don't know, maybe quarters are being, what do you guys call, less than one dollar in your currency.
So it's just very, very sad.
Like it's very sad to be a photographer in Nigeria. Most people abroad do not really understand it. And it's just very sad because even when I first came into this space as a photographer,
yeah, I think I met you like maybe like three weeks after I joined this space.
Like it was very, very, very not welcoming because I was like, oh, my country is not welcoming me and the webtoon space is not even welcoming me because like everybody was like, oh, you're a photographer.
It was like, you know, like they were really, really, they made me sad. So at first I wanted to give up.
But then I just felt like, oh, I am very, very passionate about this. And I feel like I see myself doing it a long time.
So I feel like, oh, I can take your advice on doing it because I love it.
But I don't feel like everybody would. Even I'm sure that some photographers quit in this country because of how hard it is to be a photographer in this country.
And most photographers are already by grace in abroad and run away. You can ask Vulcan and other Nigerians here.
So I am really glad that I got to see you and I get to see every time chasing like a dream I have.
But I can't like I can't chase right now because of how bad this is in the country I am.
So, yeah, like I said, you're a very, very big source of inspiration.
Although I don't get to like, you know, talk with you for like a lot of stuff.
But like it's just really nice to see. And I really, really, really love your advice.
Thank you. You're welcome. And I do want to say one thing.
First of all, you know, I have not lived in Nigeria, so I don't know what you're facing.
So I'm speaking from someone who is living in a different country and can say that.
So but I will say that this is why I want Web 3 to continue and to thrive is because we can find artists from other countries and we can help support their art in that way.
So hopefully, you know, if this continues, and like I said, I hope it will, you will maybe not have support in your country, but maybe you will have support from the rest of the world.
Because I would have never discovered you had it not been for Web 3.
And so and that goes for many other artists here from all over the world.
And and that's what I love about this space is that we can maybe set your career going by this space that we're in.
So hopefully that will help. And hopefully it will continue to help.
I know right now, you know, we've been in a lull for a while here, but hopefully we'll see a rise in this again.
And, you know, you can maybe make a living by being by showing your work here and selling your work here, even though that's not going to necessarily happen within your country.
But hopefully, hopefully everybody will be able to make a living from their art someday.
We'll see. But yeah.
And, you know, I say all that I said, and yet I was a single mom, so I know that I had to do wedding photography because of the fact that I was a single mom and had to make a living, even though that was not my passion.
So I know I did it. So I totally get where you're coming from in that sense.
I think sometimes we do things we don't particularly like, so we can keep doing the things that we love.
And that's the way I see it. You have like a particular aspect of photography that you enjoy.
And then there's the other aspect that you don't really enjoy where you have to do it so you can keep doing what you love doing.
If what's a story that you feel isn't getting enough attention right now, what deserves the spotlight?
Well, there's quite a few. I mean, there's what's happening in Tigray. There's what's happening in Ukraine.
There's what's happening in Iran. You know, there's what's happening in Gaza and Israel conflict.
There's so much happening around the world.
And when I subscribe to this thing that tells me all the different conflicts around the world,
and so many of them, they don't even see the light of day when it comes to news stories.
And there's just so much going on around the world that it's not even funny.
And I think we need a lot more eyes on what's happening. It's just it's insane,
the amount of conflicts and the amount of horrible things that are happening that we need to continue to bring light to.
And we did do that for a while for Iran, but now you don't see hardly anything about that anymore.
Same with Ukraine. And they still they got bombs, I think, yesterday or something I read.
So there's still so much happening that people just aren't even seeing or they're closing their eyes to it.
Yeah. And that's what I like about the web series is being able to connect with all these people on a different level.
And that's because of like during the time they were having a situation in Iran last year.
And even now, you can still get to connect with those artists that are going through it up there.
And like even though they have this restriction, this like VPN situation and other types of forms of ways in which the government have tried to restrict them.
The Web3 kind of brought assistance to give them the support that they need,
like in the aspect of what we were able to do in Tezos last year.
And yeah, I don't know if there's anything that is happening at this particular point in time during this situation.
Yeah, I wanted to ask if there's any is there anything going on or is there like a plan?
In Iran? Yes. See, that's a good question.
I don't know, because if they're not really reporting it, the only thing that they're reporting is the bombs and stuff that have been going off there or the missiles.
And I know that happened, I guess, what was it a week or two ago?
Luckily, my friends were safe.
But I know that just from talking to my artist friends, they're suffering so badly there right now.
And no one's talking about them.
You know, they will report on the missiles and stuff like that.
But they don't really report on what's happening to the people of Iran and what's happening with their livelihood, the fact that so many of them are scared right now.
So many of my artist friends are saying how scared they are.
And, you know, they're not able to really make much money and stuff like that.
There's so much going on that's just not being reported.
And it's really hard to report from there, because, you know, like I can't just go in there and start photographing and telling stories.
It's not easy.
And there are a few countries like that where it's just not easy for us to gain access and to tell the truth, unfortunately.
So we just have to find out from, you know, our friends that are actually living it.
And, you know, I just I don't know.
I don't know what more to do in that sense.
But, you know, all we can do is just keep our eyes open and listen to our friends that are, you know, dealing with this day in and day out.
Thank you, Leslie.
I think I have someone that wants to ask a question from the audience.
So I brought him up, Bami. Bami, do you have a question for Leslie?
Yes. GM, GM Volkan, GM Kafani, you know, shout out to you, Leslie.
You know, I am so much happy that, you know, this kind of interview is coming up and, you know, shout out to you, Volkan, for putting this together.
I really learned a lot from what Leslie said.
And I would really love to ask, you know, that, you know, since when has she been doing the photography professionally?
You know, I really want to know because it takes only someone that has passion to talk in depth about photography like this.
Yes, that is my question before I say what I want to see next.
Yeah. So I started photography in 1985.
And I think I started selling my first work a couple of years later.
It was work that I had done in Malaysia.
And it was, you know, mostly landscape work and stuff like that.
And then I took off for quite a while.
I had kids.
And then I got back into photography as a sort of a career when I went to Haiti.
And then that was in 2004.
And then, you know, since then, you know, there were so many times where I, you know, was raising kids and I wasn't doing my photography professionally.
So it was kind of back and forth for many, many years.
And I've since been doing it professionally now since I guess I started getting into weddings around 2006, 2008, somewhere around there and have been doing it professionally ever since.
So, yeah, off and on since 1985.
Yes.
You know, that is very, very incredible.
And, you know, shout out to you.
Thank you for not giving up because if that are setting, if that are setting, we will not have the opportunity of hearing this and knowing your story.
Shout out to you. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Tammy.
And, yeah, Leslie, I want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to interview you.
It's been a pleasure.
And it was really nice to hear your thoughts on photojournalism and art as activism and in the ways you make use of art to make an impact in the world.
Yeah, the world needs lots of people like you.
Do you want to say something?
Well, I just wanted to say thank you for having me and getting this out there and having a voice, giving me a voice here.
I appreciate that.
And, you know, hopefully you're going to be seeing a lot more photojournalism from me coming up.
I guess I won't say hopefully because it's not something that I wish upon us that there's going to be a need for this.
But I think there will be a need for this in the days ahead.
So, yeah, I might I'm looking at maybe going to Washington in January 18th.
So that might be my next photojournalism adventure.
But, yeah, I just want to thank you so much for having me.
I love your work, Kafani.
I love your work, too. You're both amazing artists.
And I can't wait to see how far both of you go.
Bami, thank you so much for being here as well.
And just keep doing great art.
And, yeah, thank you so much.
Thank you, Leslie.
Yeah, one of the things I wanted to say, like when we are talking about photojournalism, I think,
it shouldn't just kind of like cover the bad moments.
It should have like, like when you're documenting, since you have such good moments.
I know that you're going to be taking more.
What I personally hope for is that there's more are going to be like good moments,
like when someone's making a speech or different things and not a period of war and anarchy and chaos.
Yeah, we don't hope for that.
I totally agree with that.
I always try to look for some good within the bad that's happening.
And I always try to document that as well.
And I think I'm running.
So just to warn everybody.
Yeah.
Do you have any like last thoughts?
You gave out there before.
Yeah, I just want to again say thank you.
And I also want to everybody to, you know, try to care about what's happening,
not in their own backyard, but around the world and just, you know, be a voice for the for the voiceless.
And do our best to do that.
And, you know, keep making your art.
If you're in a situation where, you know, you're afraid of what's happening, you know, show it in your art.
That's one of the best ways to get your voice out there.
And I highly encourage that.
And yeah, just thank you so much.
And please, everybody, just keep keep trying to make this world a better place however you can.
Thank you, Leslie.
Tiffany, you have any thoughts?
Yeah.
Leslie, thank you for coming and thank you for always being an inspiration.
And yeah, thank you for the advice.
Thank you for everything.
Like, and I can't wait to see all you have to give to us, like all you have to offer.
And yeah, just thank you very much.
And I'm even really, really glad I got to meet you through my photography and through the Webtoon space.
And don't be afraid to DM me, Kafane, because I definitely want to talk to you about that stuff.
Okay, okay, Leslie.
I will try.
I will try my hardest.
I will say hey, don't worry.
I'm coming.
I'm going to slide into the DM.
Slide into the DM.
Okay, yeah, Kafane, do you want to do the honors of wrapping up on this?
Okay.
Okay, guys, we've come to the end of another episode of Art Unframed.
I am Kafani, your co-host.
Vulcan is our host.
And Leslie was our awesome guest speaker for today.
And yeah, we talked about art as activism.
And I'm sure you guys had to learn a lot about how our arts can help change the world one step at a time.
And yeah, you guys should please keep creating, keep showing us what you have to offer, because the world really needs what we have to offer.
Yeah, thank you for coming.
I'll see you next week at another episode.
Bye.