Hey, welcome back everybody. This is the Justin and Heidi unfiltered podcast. I am Justin
and I'm Heidi. We are your hosts. Thanks so much for listening. Appreciate you tuning in.
We started talking last week about something is off air quotes, why we ignore relationship
red flags. We introduced betrayal blindness from Dr. Freyd and we talked about red flags
that you've noticed in our relationship and answered some heavy questions. And it was
great, a good episode and we're going to continue the discussion. So this is part two, part
two of two maybe, but it could be three. Probably not three. Okay, so now we're going to talk
about some psychological reasons behind ignoring red flags. Kind of discuss why we choose to
ignore. So there's, I've listed five reasons and you feel free to jump in at any point
if any of these relate to you or speak to you. Betrayal blindness is the fifth one,
which I think is where most of it lies. But five reasons for the psychological reasons
behind ignoring red flags. Number one, fear of conflict or the unknown, desire to maintain
the status quo. Hope that things will improve on their own. I did that a lot. I didn't want
to face reality because I was, I guess the first one and the third one, I was afraid
of what could happen. I would just hope that things would go back to normal on their own
and that things would be okay without really addressing them. And just laugh. I know now
that the only way to have true resolutions is just to talk about everything. Yeah, but
I mean, I didn't necessarily deal with the red flags either. I was maintaining the status
quo. Yeah. I mean, there's a part of me and I've said this our whole marriage, I knew
how I married when I married you. It's not like I was, so I don't know if I would say
it was a red flag. Okay. I just had a thought if, if it weren't for our religious beliefs
and in our connection to what we believe will happen after this life, like being married
for eternity, going through what we went through, how long would we have lasted without that
religious connection? Here's what's funny though, because of our religious connection
is why we view pornography in the way we view it. Go on. If we didn't have a religious connection
or if we didn't believe in God or if we didn't believe, why would we care that that's what
we wouldn't or not? If you wouldn't be per se, the issue in our marriage, you don't think
so. I don't think you would be under the influence of you needing to hide it like you did. Ooh,
that's a good point. Yeah. I mean, hypotheticals can be dangerous either way. So I was kind
of even joking, but, but that's a, that's a good point. It's a very good point. Okay.
So the fourth psychological reason that I put down here was self doubt and minimizing
concerns. Maybe, I don't, maybe this feeling isn't right. I should just trust them and
minimizing concerns. That's one. And then of course, betrayal blindness, the tendency
to overlook betrayals to protect important relationships. And that was the way that I
understand it from the article that we read two weeks ago and the other article we read
tonight. I see it as it's almost subconscious. It doesn't mean that there's not a decision
that's made, but I still feel a lot of it is subconscious and it's a coping mechanism.
And she even connected it to, to the freeze response, like fight or flight or freeze.
When you're in, in the mode where you have, where a response is going to be triggered
and that she connects to the freeze, which I don't see from you very often. You're not
a freeze kind of person, but I do, I do see where she's coming from and why this is connected
to that because it's our ability to just say, I'm sure it's fine. Push it aside and not
have to face the reality of it. And in some cases, in my opinion, I think you were forced
to do that because you didn't have a willing partner who would be honest with you. Right.
But that's where I, that's where I questioned the betrayal blindness kind of thing. Yeah.
And that's, we talked about that last episode too. There's, I think, but that's, that's
the interesting thing about the psychology is that it's, it's not black or white. Right.
There's lots of gray area. Everybody's situation is different, but this idea of betrayal blindness
was captivating. It was very intriguing. And we're of course sharing our experiences, but
what I've noticed, the next thing we're talking about is societal pressures and expectations
and how they can contribute to denial or betrayal blindness. I've seen this depicted in shows,
TV shows and movies and in relationships of people that I've met. And I see it as it's
almost a societal norm and getting more normal every day. Right. Like what we see on the
TV now that our kids watch would have never been on TV, even when we were their age. Right.
But there's always going to be examples of that convinced people of the opposite, like
things that you can get away with with the 70s, that show in the seventies that that
big guy that smoked a cigar and sat in a chair in his front, our Arty bunker, he would say
things like the derogatory homosexual word, the F word. And people replay that and they
say, no, we're a lot more strict now. No, a couple of specific things we've gone a different
way on, but in general media has become kind of filthy to a point where it's just normal
now to hear and see things that are just, that should be abhorrent or was a parent.
But why, I guess that's where I, that's where I question the societal norms and the things
that society tells us. But why is it important? Why should it be important? My first thought
goes back to your faith. I mean, like you said a minute ago, if it weren't for our faith,
if I, if I didn't have the faith system that I have, you know, maybe none of it would be
a parent to me. But you also wouldn't have been hiding it. Right. And I'm not saying
that, oh, just because we believe in the religion we believe in and they've very much made you
feel bad for even touching your own body, which is a little important. Yeah, that's dumb.
And if we weren't in that and you didn't feel the need to have to hide that you, that you
see or view porn, don't get me wrong. I still think pornography is damaging to a relationship
no matter what, because it brings in this fantasy aspect, this, this unattainable sense
of that's what sex is. That's what, that's what a true relationship is. Like I'm watching
the, these reality TV shows and you know, the guy's getting married at first sight or
whatever and he's saying, I've never been in love. Well, you've never been in the love
that you saw on TV that they depicted as love. Right. But that's not love. That's not true.
So that's where the society norms start to really irritate me because who, because 10
people agree that's now that's now what it is. But what if a hundred people disagree?
Yeah. But because 10 people agree and they were able to get it going, that's now like,
that's okay. That's the norm. Well, and we kind of beat the societal norm too with our
marriage and courtship because we, I mean, I know the stereotype of Mormons are one thing,
but we still, we got married pretty quick. I mean, we, we dated first date was Valentine's
day. I proposed on April Fool's day and we were married in August, four months later,
Labor Day weekend. Right. But then we like them holidays. We do like them holidays. But
we, I mean, we've been married 21 years and some could argue we've been through a lot
and maybe if we'd courted each other longer, it wouldn't happen. But I don't buy into that.
Yeah. I don't think it would have changed much. No, I think we made, we absolutely made
the right decision, but that's also been one of my motivations for continuing when I felt
like maybe it was, it had reached its end and it comes down to core beliefs. My core
beliefs are family. Family's always been up there. I feel like core beliefs change here
and there, but family's always been important to me. And crap, where was I going to go?
Oh, things that I don't like on TV. One of the, one of my major things that I find, some
people would call it offensive. I just think I don't like watching it is depictions of
cheating. Stories that show characters cheating and it's written. It's a scripted thing. And
the worst is when it's, it's told in jest and like it's funny. I hate that. I've never
liked it. And another thing is when, when shows depict Jesus or God and it's a joke,
you know, like for whatever reason, these later seasons of the Simpsons, you know, I
love the Simpsons. It's just more and more episodes where they're bringing in their character
of Jesus and he's dancing around and being funny and doing stupid stuff. I mean, that's
just, it's sacred to me. So I don't like it. What's my reaction? I clicked next episode
and I don't see what's in that episode because it's not the end of the world. Well, my point
is that that kind of stuff has always been important to me. I don't like watching it.
But you'll be born. Isn't that funny? Yeah, it's very right. Right. So there's, there's
still a connection to core values, but there's something that still drives that decision
to use pornography. There's still that decision for, for good, well-meaning people to decide
to go and drink. And it's not just social drinking, but like drink way too much. There's
still decision for people who take drugs, do meth, do coke. Like it doesn't mean that
the person doesn't have core beliefs, but there's different, there's a separation. Right.
No, I, that, I think that's the interesting thing is, this has just been my own personal
experience. I do believe everyone has a core belief, but there is a part of them that knows
they're not living one of their cores to the fullest. Yeah. That then they do something
else. Yeah. That's a parent. That's also not right. And in, in it's so funny because two
wrongs don't make a right, but in some weird way, it's just, it's Satan. That's the tools
that he uses. Well, you've already done this. You're already not doing this far. You might
as well. Let's push that button. Is that, is it drinking? Is it drugs? Is it porn? Is
it what else can I do that is of my world? Yeah. That's why you're, when you said that
a second ago, you know, I'm talking about my core beliefs and how I don't like seeing
certain things on TV and your comment was, Oh, but you'll view porn. I understand your
comment. I get it. It's just not that simple. Right. But that's where I find it interesting
because in our years of marriage, and I can only go off of our interactions, but I would
imagine like you learned in group therapy, none of us are unique. We might not all do
the exact same A through C, but we all, there is somebody out there that has done the same
things. You're not special. Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're not unique. You're not special. There's
somebody else who there are a thousand other people who've done that same exact thing.
Right. I find it the most interesting that you would judge others so heavily and so readily
more so than like I would. Yeah. Being judgmental was a big thing for me. Huge. And it's tied
to one of those. It might, I think it's uniqueness. Just being overly judgmental. It might be
narcissism. I can't remember which one, but go on. But I do find that very interesting
that like you at your core know you aren't living your full values, the things that really
make you who you are. And you know, you're making the wrong choices. You know, you're
not doing the right things per se. Yeah. According to what you believe is right. And then you'll
skip an episode on the Simpsons because they're taking one of those other core beliefs and
making fun of it. You'll yell at the driver in front of you because he cut you off when
you did it to the driver three or three cars back. Hey, now. Hey, hey. I find that fascinating.
I find it fascinating watching how people interact. And that's the thing with the societal
norms. And that's where I start to really start to dig in and just go, this is fascinating
to me because I don't think anything is wrong per se. We're all down here to learn. We're
all down here to make choices. We're all down here to see what fits our life best. But at
the end of the day, what are we doing it for? Yeah. Why are we? Why do we care about our
religion going to the church we go to and the, and believing in the things we do? Yeah.
I know why I do. Right. And that will keep me going that way. That that's a strong connection
to your core beliefs, strong connection to my core beliefs. And that is when it's like,
when I'm faced with a choice, it's really easy for me to make that choice. Do I make
the right one every time? No, no, I don't. But I almost always immediately know when
I haven't made the right one. And I try to remedy it, what to make it better. What you're
describing is a healthy person, I think a healthy response to things, to choices. And
so to answer your fascination, I had two thoughts. One is that it's symptomatic. My responses
to things and why I can view one thing one way and be but yet live this other way, right
and live another it's symptomatic because I have chosen to act out as a response to
stressors in my life. And the symptoms or the what do you get from medication side effect
of that one of the side effects of that is an inability to function properly with your
brain, especially with certain drugs and with pornography because drugs and pornography
affect your brain the same way at different heights. I understand cocaine does more, but
the neurotransmitters that are creating pathways in your brain with pornography can be the
same way. Right. Just not saying it's the same thing. Make sure we so anyway, so a lot
of those they're symptomatic for the thing that I'm doing to myself. But also now that
I'm 170 days sober now, and I have do you know, can you not call me out on that right
now? Because no, I don't. And I hope she's not listening. She called me out. No, it's
around 170 days. And I can be better at that. I know. But here's the thing about having
a clean brain for almost six months. 180 Yeah, almost six months. My brain is is clean from
the effects of pornography. And if you don't understand really why that's important, you
need to do a little bit of research that the stuff that listen to our last four episodes
ago. Oh my gosh, we could do 10 more episodes on on how the neurotransmitters affect your
brain when you look at pornography like your brain is not clean. But with a clean brain,
I can look back and now when I'm getting mad at the person in front of me who cut me off,
okay, hear me out. The irony is not lost on me that I just did it to the person behind
me. In my mind. That's a big step. Okay. I still am doing the thing. But the pathway
is clear in my brain and I'm seeing Oh, I did that. The difference is profound tunnel
vision. I can't see that thing that I did behind me. This is more important. What's
happening to me right now is more important. That's all I can focus on. But that's that's
the interesting thing about when you are addicted to something and I think this is true for
anyone who's addicted to something. It's about me. Yes. It's about what's happening to me.
And that's why I use what I use. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a very I mean, addictions and habits
are very selfish in nature, I think meant to be. So yeah, you're not you're not wrong.
But the problem is that it's a cycle. And the more you get into it, the stronger that
is so the stronger your selfishness. So these little things that I would miss around the
house, how can I forget something like that? Well, duh, because it wasn't about you. Right.
Whereas same with our arguments when I would get after you for something like that. And
be like, Whoa, you don't get to treat me like this. I'm not going to take this abuse. Idiot.
But you did see yourself. You were being attacked. Right. And not being treated as an equal.
Yeah, dumb. But that's how that's how far you can get convinced of yourself when you
when you allow these behavioral things to become so much a part of you. And when you
let your thought distortions become truth. That's what the world looks like. And it's
not worth it. This is hard. Honesty. Honesty is hard. Yeah, when you try it out for the
first time in 44 years. See another one of those, you know, like first of all, was I
lying in the womb? Like, bro, why don't you calm down? But also, that's not gonna offend
me. Were you kind of a jerk for saying it? Yeah, objectively. Let's talk about the consequences
of ignoring red flags. Unless you had something else. Okay. So I wrote down a couple of consequences
like an escalation of problems. I think we saw that in the last several years as my as
my use became more regular. My anxiety was more heightened. And then we added other things
like losing the job. And then just the scales were tipped. And I wasn't even before you
lost your job. It was changing jobs, right? Changing jobs and then working from home and
then COVID COVID and then kids being at home. Yeah, school home, right. And then I mean,
all those things. I was not mentally equipped to handle it. But those are also things where
that's why it went as long as it did. Yes, I agree. So an escalation of problems, very
common potential consequence of ignoring red flags, erosion of trust and intimacy. If you're
comfortable talking about this, the intimacy part, so the erosion of trust, we've I think
we've covered that the erosion of intimacy, I think is two prongs. One, intimacy to me
was only sex. And that that's what intimacy was. And now I'm learning it's so much more
than that. And it's also so much better. And the frequency of sex is different now. But
it's our overall intimacy is is so much greater. I've never been happier with our intimacy.
It's only been six months. But there was also many times when sex was just off. It wasn't
as satisfying. And I can tell you, I there were some times that I wasn't sure why. But
for the most part, I knew why there was something off between us. And I was not doing what I
should. I wasn't trying to face it. I wasn't being honest about it. I was ignoring it.
No, because sex without intimacy, intimacy is just sex. It is just sex. And what's the
difference between sex and just masturbation? Not much. I've come to realize that the emotional
connection makes such a difference. And you can't have that in a dishonest relationship.
They can't they can't coincide our bodies are I mean, take the religious aspect out
of it. I can tell you why I think that is, is God created us to be able to connect with
one another, be honest, take the religious aspect out of it. Fine. That's not how our
minds work. Our minds are incredible thing. Our brains are incredible. We can learn to
connect with another human being. And our brain is inside us. And it can somehow connect
with the brain of another person. It's meant to do that. And when you add in dishonesty,
there's not an emotional connection. There's a wall. There is a wall. And that that leads
to the next one as well, prolonged emotional distress. And my so like when I said my inability
to cope or handle mentally the issues that I was going through, I'd never addressed how
to handle my anxieties. Because I'd never gone to therapy, I'd never talked through
my issues, I just bottled it up, or I was dishonest, or I said just enough to get by.
And that was it. And then the last thing I put down was missed opportunities for growth
and change. And I'm not I'm, I don't think that we should spend time in shame. But I
still struggle with that. I am really ashamed of my choices. But this one hurts the missed
opportunities for growth and change. Because if I'm sitting here, and I don't think to
flip my rubber band, I will think about 20 years, how many times I've wasted an opportunity
to grow and change. That hurts. It sucks.
Yeah, I mean, that's, that is, it's always gonna hurt. It's always gonna suck. But that's,
how is that productive?
Right, sitting in shame?
How does that how does that change? I mean, how does that change anything?
Right.
It doesn't change anything. It actually puts you more back into a vulnerable state to go
right back to doing what you were doing. That's why when you aren't living those core values,
that's why it's so easy for you to do something that you would find a poor and otherwise.
Yeah. Now I see the connection again back to our faith system and the gospel. Just my
view of this, when you're in the throes of deceit, Satan wants you to continue to do
that. He he thrives when you are doing the opposite of thriving, when you're miserable.
He never stops though. So when you face reality, and you come clean, and you then are thinking
about all the things you've done wrong, he's right back. Which I think is where a lot of
people lose their way. Because they've just done this really hard thing and they're doing
great. But now I have to face the reality of my actions. Now I have shame and the cycle
repeats and it sucks. Which is why I think you've got to develop a healthy understanding
of the difference between shame and regret. Or shame and being sorry and get better. We
say in therapy, let go and let God. The past and one of our apostles, I believe it was
Boyd K Packers, well known for saying, the past is to be learned from not lived in. And
addicts and people who struggle with emotional distress have a hard time differentiating
that because the past is painful. And if I'm thinking about it, then it hurts. And I think
you have to have a healthy brain to be able to look at the past and say, yeah, it sucks
that I did that. But look where I am now. Good still may have come from it. I think
honestly good always comes from it. Because if nothing else, you've learned something.
That's fair. I would agree with that. I have a great job. We have a place in our marriage
where we have learned how to communicate with each other. We have three terrific kids. Well,
two and another one. We have like I can't go so long without telling a joke. I can't
stop myself. Okay. Anyway, great kids. Got a great home. A lot of great things have come
from our lives in the last 20 years. Yeah. So even if there was deception in there, even
if there was more that you could have done, even if there was a different way of living
that life, it doesn't matter because you didn't. But what matters is what do we do from here?
Right. What do we do from here? I think that's an absolutely beautiful and poignant way to
end the episode and this topic. Get to a point where you can just accept what has happened
and make the decision where are we going to go from here? What's next instead of what
have you done? Right. Because if you look back on what have you done and so nobody can
love you, nobody can like you, nobody, whatever it is. What purpose does that serve? You said
it a few minutes ago. Yeah. What does that do? Right. And this is where we bring it back.
We have all, none of us are unique. We have all been there. We've all made bad choices.
We've all done dumb things. You got to move on. Yeah. You got to let go and let go. I
agree. I've been looking at the analytics of our show. I know people are listening.
We get a couple of downloads every day and it's great. Thank you all so much for listening.
Wherever you are listening, whatever platform you're choosing, would you do us a favor?
Could you just rate us? If your platform allows you, like Apple Music gives you the option
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So you have taken the time to listen to us. I can't tell you how grateful we are for that.
We're going to continue to share our life experiences because this is really healthy
for us. And excuse me, it's really healthy for me. And we might be able to help somebody
else make a different choice. You know? So anyway, that was unscripted. Sorry. Thanks
so much for listening and we'll see you next week. Goodbye.