1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,840 Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,480 Welcome back to the Justin and Heidi Unfiltered Podcast. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,240 I am Justin. 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:10,960 And I'm Heidi. 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,960 And we've got a new topic today. 6 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,420 The last couple episodes were heavy and raw. 7 00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:19,240 Thank you for listening. 8 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:28,960 We went places with those episodes and it got kind of rough, but I'm glad we did those 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:29,960 episodes. 10 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:31,600 And we've got a new topic today, like I mentioned. 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,760 The topic is something is off. 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:41,400 Like why we ignore relationship red flags. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,720 And we'll talk about how common it is. 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:51,440 And just to kind of explain further what that is, do you want to chime in? 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:52,440 Not yet. 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:53,600 Okay, fair enough. 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:01:00,320 It's essentially when your relationship is moving along and someone has an intuition 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,720 or feeling something is off. 19 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:11,640 And all too often the person who feels that intuition chooses not to act on it because 20 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,520 of one reason or another. 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,920 And we'll talk about what some common reasons are. 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,560 Or they act on it and the other person lies to their face. 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:24,560 Yes. 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,560 Yes. 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,680 We should do these on video. 26 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:40,760 I feel like seeing your face as that was said would help the listener tremendously. 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:46,520 I in retrospect, pee a little. 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,320 That's just me. 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:57,040 A good deal of this is from an article that my group therapist shared with Heidi and I 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,040 last week. 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,640 Two weeks ago. 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:06,040 It was an article called Betrayal Blindness by Dr. Freyd. 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,120 I hope I'm saying that right. 34 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:13,560 But Jennifer Freyd is, she's, I guess, coined this phrase betrayal blindness and has written 35 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:14,840 extensively on it. 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,840 And it's fascinating. 37 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:23,560 In fact, I want to read an excerpt. 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:31,680 Is that a word? 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,880 So this is a kind of coping mechanism. 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,080 And in the past, the behavior has been labeled as denial. 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,160 A lot of people have just said, well, you're in denial. 42 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:50,280 Dr. Freyd argues that it's much deeper than that, which makes sense. 43 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:56,320 And when she drills it down to calling it betrayal blindness, we'll talk about that 44 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:05,840 through this episode and maybe another one where the deception and the things that we 45 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:11,040 decide to do about that feeling are just, it's not just denial. 46 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,720 Denial is just not a good enough tag for it. 47 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,840 So we want to set the stage for an honest and insightful conversation about why we sometimes 48 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,160 choose to overlook warning signs. 49 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,160 And Heidi's promised to be nice. 50 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:33,080 And I've promised to not cry while we're recording. 51 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:38,640 And I say that because we've had some rough moments and I've caused some issues. 52 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:46,280 And we're going to be talking about things that are hard. 53 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,920 So my thing is, is when they talk about betrayal blindness, I think they're referring to the 54 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:57,880 one who's looking past the one who's using the abuser. 55 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Right. 56 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:06,600 But the more that I sit here and think about it, the more I think, but I didn't. 57 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,480 I talked to you. 58 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,880 You lied to my face point blank. 59 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:20,200 So is that betrayal blindness because I trusted you because you lied to me or you betrayal? 60 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,840 Are you doing the betrayal on the blind? 61 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:28,040 That's yeah, that's interesting. 62 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:33,800 I mean, I want to say it's kind of, we kind of both participated, but I don't want that 63 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,720 to come off like this is a blame thing and we're sharing blame. 64 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,200 I just think that's the reality of what happened. 65 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:49,160 And again, the bottom line is here, you confronted me on multiple occasions and I made the wrong 66 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:50,280 choice. 67 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:51,520 I was deceitful. 68 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,520 I lied about the things that I was doing. 69 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,280 And now that is what the issue is. 70 00:04:57,280 --> 00:04:58,280 Right. 71 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:07,520 So we're discussing how oftentimes in relationships, people engage in more of a willful but not 72 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:14,320 willful, but like almost subconscious ignorance of it. 73 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:20,320 Because they always say that deep down you did know. 74 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:21,680 And they're not wrong. 75 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,200 Deep down, I knew something was up because you were gaining weight again. 76 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,320 I knew you weren't eating food from home. 77 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,960 You were playing video games like all the time. 78 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,720 You weren't doing anything healthy. 79 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,560 Basically, you were just self-destructive. 80 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Right. 81 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,520 And you've done that your entire life. 82 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,000 So when does it become like, well, that's just who he is and that's just what he likes 83 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,000 to do. 84 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,400 And when does it become, oh, he must be using it again. 85 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:49,400 Yeah. 86 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,000 And I think to your point earlier, I think that's really where we kind of stand apart 87 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:01,240 because we, meaning you, you've never been the one to just kind of accept the status 88 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:08,080 quo if it doesn't feel right, which is why I don't think you ever engaged in full betrayal 89 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,280 blindness and then sat with it for years. 90 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:17,280 And unfortunately, I think that took a lot of deception on my part to get to a point 91 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,680 where it was passable. 92 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:26,280 That sucks because that means I had countless opportunities to make it right, to do the 93 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:27,280 right thing. 94 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:35,400 So see, that's also where you learned what you did need to do to pass. 95 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,400 Yeah. 96 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,400 Air quotes. 97 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:39,400 Yeah. 98 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,400 Right. 99 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,400 And that's the choice. 100 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,480 You can either learn, I need to come clean. 101 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:49,880 I need to do the right thing or, Hey, I need to say it a certain way so that it's a certain 102 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:50,880 thing. 103 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Right. 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,840 And if I'm hitting the bar, the bare minimum, we're surviving. 105 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,040 Yeah. 106 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,040 Not even surviving. 107 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:06,480 We were living fine, but we definitely weren't living what we could have been. 108 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:07,920 You're right. 109 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:16,160 I do add, I still am harboring, if I'm being honest, a lot of shame for the things that 110 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:17,160 I've done. 111 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:24,120 In the last 170 days of my sobriety, I've been really focusing on it. 112 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:35,680 Sometimes I can be a bit rough, but in honesty, we've had some amazing years together. 113 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,160 We really have. 114 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:45,800 And it does, it's a shame that in general, I was deceitful for a good portion of it. 115 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,960 It wasn't a constant every single day thing. 116 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:49,960 Right. 117 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,520 And we were happy. 118 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,960 And we'll talk about that in a few minutes later on to the podcast of how that's a social 119 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:00,960 norm. 120 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,120 So yeah, we'll come back to that. 121 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,400 But let's start with intuitions. 122 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,520 Let's talk about the concept of intuition and how it manifests in relationships like 123 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,680 gut feelings or subtle clues or emotional shifts. 124 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,600 What are things that you notice? 125 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:21,600 Like with you? 126 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:22,600 Yeah. 127 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:30,600 Well, like I said, it was for me, most of the time it was the overeating or knowing 128 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,200 that you're not eating from home. 129 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,600 So you're hiding something because you're not a small guy. 130 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,760 So I know you're eating. 131 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,080 Right. 132 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,000 And then just what you did with your pastime, the things that would get done and the things 133 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,120 that would not get done. 134 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,680 But then what you were doing. 135 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:47,680 Yeah. 136 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:48,680 Yeah. 137 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:53,120 I mean, at my peak weight, I was four hundred and thirty seven pounds last year in twenty 138 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,120 twenty four. 139 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,520 No, it was in twenty twenty three. 140 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,680 So that absolutely was a thing. 141 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:02,960 Over-eating is a big thing for me. 142 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,840 I eat my feelings. 143 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,520 Eating things, I really like talking about that one because there were so many times 144 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:16,720 I remember where I would just forget something that shouldn't be forgotten. 145 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,760 You know, like it's a routine every day. 146 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,520 You go pick up your kids from school or you go to an appointment that's in the calendar 147 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:31,360 or you know, your general responsibility is to perform certain tasks at home. 148 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,120 And I just would do them. 149 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,560 And looking back, I know and from what I've learned from therapy and from group therapy 150 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:48,840 and addiction recovery, there's so much in my brain that's focused on maintaining the 151 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:56,360 status quo that there's just nothing left to handle the minutiae, which is the important 152 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,360 things. 153 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,680 But when you say maintaining the status quo, it's maintaining the deception you were living. 154 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:03,680 Yeah. 155 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,280 It's not status quo. 156 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,320 That's fair. 157 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,440 It's what I viewed as the status quo. 158 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,800 Right. 159 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,240 But it was so hard for you to maintain your deception. 160 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,840 You just. 161 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,040 And so that's where it's like, yeah, my intuition was kicking in. 162 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:28,160 It was there was multiple times when we fought hard. 163 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,680 And usually your retaliation in those fights was I don't have to take this from you. 164 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:35,480 You don't get to treat me like that. 165 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:36,480 Yeah. 166 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,920 I was crazy defensive. 167 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,040 When it was immediately, it was something where it's like, why did you leave all of 168 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,200 your medicine out and go play video games? 169 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,200 Yeah. 170 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,280 Filling up my medicine things for the week. 171 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,880 And yeah, I'm going to do it later. 172 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:53,880 Then why pull it? 173 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:54,880 Why? 174 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:55,880 And they were dumb. 175 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:56,880 Yeah. 176 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:57,880 That was the argument. 177 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,440 Well, that's a dumb decision. 178 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,000 And then boom. 179 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000 How dare you? 180 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Yeah. 181 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000 How was kind of the thought process? 182 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000 Yeah. 183 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,000 Tell me that I'm doing. 184 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,480 I can do it my way if I want. 185 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:08,480 Right. 186 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,040 So I dig my heels in and we, yeah, we would just fight. 187 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:19,880 But if I wasn't so heightened with anxiety and deception and deception and fun fact, 188 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:25,680 I'm still on the same dosage of an anxiety medication now that I have been for years. 189 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:32,360 But my anxiety is at an absolute low point. 190 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,360 Yeah. 191 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,280 Cause you're not trying to maintain. 192 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,960 So most people, I feel like most people experience anxiety when there's too much going on. 193 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Correct? 194 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,320 You have music playing, TV playing, kids fighting in the background. 195 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,880 You're trying to concentrate on something. 196 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,720 And that's when you're like, everyone just needs to shut up. 197 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:52,720 Right. 198 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,080 And when you're in a state of deception where you're trying to keep a lie, make sure you 199 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:04,480 do what you're supposed to do daily and you know, basic hygiene and needs, that's the 200 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:05,800 anxiety part. 201 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,160 That's what gets you going. 202 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,940 Everyone else needs to shut up because I can't focus anymore because you already have too 203 00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:15,720 much going on in your brain. 204 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,400 Right. 205 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,680 So again, there was no room for anything else. 206 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:27,160 So again, when we talk about intuition, when my anxiety gets raised, it's usually not very 207 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,400 often because I don't have deception, I guess you could say. 208 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:38,280 So like, yeah, we, when we were driving today and I was like, the radio was on, Ella wanted 209 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,280 to talk. 210 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,120 You wanted to just listen to your music, but I, and I was working and it was like, just 211 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,120 turn the music down. 212 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Right. 213 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,840 I needed one of those three things to just not be. 214 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,000 She said, turn the music down. 215 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000 Did you? 216 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000 Sure. 217 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000 It didn't. 218 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,000 And then, okay. 219 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,560 I mean, to be fair, you then turned it down a millisecond later. 220 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:06,360 So yeah, it was still computing in my brain before I turned it down. 221 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,480 You're not wrong, but come on, let's tell the whole story. 222 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:16,160 But anyway, you turned it down and I didn't cause any, a millisecond in anxiety is how 223 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,160 long. 224 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,160 Oh my gosh. 225 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,160 Listen, I don't know if this is going to work out if you keep speaking my language. 226 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,160 Okay. 227 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,160 I'm the one with anxiety. 228 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:25,640 You're the healthy one. 229 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:26,640 Stop taking my things. 230 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:27,640 Yeah, I don't have to be medicated for it. 231 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:28,640 You take my jokes. 232 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,360 You take, you ruin my jokes. 233 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,360 You stop taking things from me. 234 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,160 The only reason you think I ruin them is because people laugh. 235 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,000 They're not supposed to because I'm, they're my jokes. 236 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,000 They're jokes. 237 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,440 I was a minute ago going to agree with you and say, yeah, you just, you're not a deceptive 238 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:45,440 person. 239 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,440 Stealing is deception. 240 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:53,080 Being the first to say something is not stealing. 241 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,440 I strongly disagree. 242 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:56,440 Where'd you get all those jokes? 243 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:02,280 You actually thought them up all on your own Z. Stealing. 244 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:03,600 This press conference is over. 245 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:04,680 We have lists. 246 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:06,080 Let's bring it back. 247 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,600 No more, no more sidetracks. 248 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,680 You stopped derailing this. 249 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:22,160 Let's talk more about those red flags, like those, those changes in behavior. 250 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:28,600 And I mean, I like the link to anxiety, but I think that's just one way, like the heightened 251 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,880 anxiety for kind of like no reason. 252 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:37,280 Like if jobs going well, things are generally good at home, but then there's just this spike 253 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,000 in anxiety, you should probably just do yourself a favor. 254 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Just think, I mean, do you have a gut feeling about when if you were to witness an outburst 255 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,640 first, you know, take, take stock of the situation. 256 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,240 Are you feeling anything? 257 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,240 Is your intuition telling you anything? 258 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,440 And then just try to decide, is this a red flag? 259 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,320 My partner giving a red flag. 260 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,900 Cause we had more, we had more discussions. 261 00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:07,440 The fights that we've had in the past year, they have gotten to that point where it's 262 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,720 like, where are we, where is this heading? 263 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:20,120 The last fight we had before you started therapy and on your road to recovery was the last, 264 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,840 that was the last, like my most shameful moment. 265 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:24,840 Yeah. 266 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,560 But how come all of the other fights before where I'm crying, sitting on the floor, crying 267 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,920 and saying, what next? 268 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:32,920 What do we do? 269 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,920 Where do we go from here? 270 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Why didn't that trigger something else? 271 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:43,840 That is a good question. 272 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:53,640 One we did not discuss in the pre podcast meeting. 273 00:15:53,640 --> 00:16:04,880 Oh, I, you know, I guess I have thought of it, but I don't, I haven't given it enough 274 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,760 thought to think it through because I'm worried about the answer. 275 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,800 Cause what does it say for me? 276 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,720 This last one, you gave me an ultimatum. 277 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,760 I don't want to live like this. 278 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,120 So make a different choice. 279 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,520 And I was sleeping in the other room. 280 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,080 So it was pretty clear I needed to change my behavior. 281 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,120 And at that point, pornography addiction was not part of the equation. 282 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,640 It was just the way that I was reacting and acting and treating you. 283 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,320 So that's what's more important then is because you started therapy for anger management. 284 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:38,320 Yes. 285 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,480 It was not for pornography addiction. 286 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,840 And I think, I think I remember telling you, but again, remembering what I have told you, 287 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:53,720 I caused another issue when I started, I just, I said everything I said here with my therapist, 288 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,960 I wanted to just get it all out so we can have the best possible foundation. 289 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:08,440 And we knew immediately, you know, the underlying issue is the prevailing addiction to pornography. 290 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,440 How did that not come up from, cause again, this was not your first round with pornography 291 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,440 and recovery and addiction and group therapy. 292 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:24,240 So when we would have those fights before, and I would tell you, make a choice. 293 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:25,840 This can't keep going on. 294 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:26,840 Yeah. 295 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:34,280 Would you then try not to use? 296 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,960 That's not an answer for every single time. 297 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:37,960 Right. 298 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,880 So, um, so let me, let me answer the first question and I'll come back to this and I've 299 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,680 got something to share from one of my group therapy sessions. 300 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Cause your question is why, why was it this time and not all the other times like in those 301 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:56,160 fights and those were hard to be fighting and see how it was affecting you. 302 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:05,360 There was a voice in my head saying, just, just end it, come clean on everything. 303 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,440 But the fear was so much stronger betrayal blindness. 304 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,440 Yeah. 305 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:15,880 So they, like I said, this is an interesting topic because when Kendra first, sorry, said 306 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:22,440 her name, but when she first, um, had us read that and I read it and I understand it and 307 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:31,160 I did like, and I, and there is a part of me that like says, yeah, that could be me. 308 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:41,800 But at the same time, it wasn't really, cause we were fighting about these things. 309 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,200 I wasn't just turning a blind eye going, that's just what he does. 310 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,200 Right. 311 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,200 Not necessarily. 312 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Right. 313 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,400 But you are still lying to me. 314 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,240 I think it's fair to say that in almost every situation you were doing the right things 315 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,360 and I perpetuated the issue. 316 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,120 I was the one living in deceit, not you. 317 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,960 So I was calling you out on it. 318 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:11,000 You were, you were so, and it's funny cause in this pre podcast thing, you felt differently 319 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,440 about how betrayal blindness works. 320 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,480 It couldn't apply to me, but really it does. 321 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,640 And I definitely that played a part of it, but it was part of me convincing myself of 322 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:29,600 certain lies that were, that I wanted to be truth, but also there was intentional deception. 323 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,520 And there's just no excuse for that. 324 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,880 And I think that the overall thing with betrayal blindness is we kind of do it hoping that 325 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:44,880 we're wrong about the other person, but mine was different because there's honestly, it 326 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:45,880 was more malicious. 327 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,240 I knew what I was doing was wrong. 328 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,240 Right. 329 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,240 But you didn't want me to leave. 330 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,240 Yeah. 331 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,720 And I would do anything to avoid that. 332 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,440 So what made this last time different? 333 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,080 You gave me an ultimatum. 334 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,960 That's what made it different. 335 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,640 But there is a three-pronged approach to successful recovery. 336 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,440 And this wasn't, this wasn't part of my first recovery. 337 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,480 So it was, it was a great experience that I learned a lot that I've come back to know 338 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,200 now from back in 2009. 339 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:25,120 One of the reasons that it didn't sustain is because I didn't create something that 340 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,800 was going to last for the rest of my life. 341 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,600 And I didn't see it like that. 342 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,920 I saw it as an affliction, a virus, even though I was saying it, I'm going to struggle with 343 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,240 this my whole life. 344 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,520 Eventually I stopped doing the things to keep me safe. 345 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Yeah. 346 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,760 Like the rubber band. 347 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,520 Stopped wearing the rubber band. 348 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:52,680 I eventually through an upgrade on an iPhone was able to download apps again, and then 349 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,120 found out ways to go on to certain social media apps that had access to it would show, 350 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,520 I mean, Twitter shows everything. 351 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,080 There's no filters on Twitter. 352 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:09,000 I would strongly recommend that you don't ever go there or exit as it is now. 353 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,480 And I just, you know, I stopped. 354 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:18,400 There were no, there were no any more barricades between me and my addiction. 355 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,920 And then when I started using again, this seat came right back with it because it has 356 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:23,920 to. 357 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,440 So there's a three prong approach to successful recovery. 358 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,840 There's one, the self discipline. 359 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,000 And when you do the self discipline alone, it's called white knuckling, quitting cold 360 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,000 turkey. 361 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,640 It doesn't work. 362 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,880 But that's part of successful recovery. 363 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:41,880 It just doesn't work. 364 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,960 It doesn't work on its own. 365 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,440 You can't say it doesn't work. 366 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,200 It's not the most successful. 367 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,040 If there are people who have succeeded with it, then that's great. 368 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,040 Okay. 369 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,040 So it's fair. 370 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,840 It's not fair for me to generalize and say it doesn't work. 371 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,920 My experience is that it doesn't work for me. 372 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:01,920 Okay. 373 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Well, so far none of them have, but. 374 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,320 Okay. 375 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,400 Two is coping strategies and lifestyle changes. 376 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:17,200 And we did some of those things back in 2009 and I'm doing them now. 377 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:25,120 Coping strategies, the way that I see them now, I want to continue therapy on a regular 378 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,040 basis for the foreseeable future. 379 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,960 That's not how therapy works. 380 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,760 You don't think so? 381 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,680 I want to go to therapy all the time. 382 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,680 I get it. 383 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,560 You're supposed to recover. 384 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,560 I understand that. 385 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,560 Okay. 386 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:40,560 So I'm going to be in therapy for the foreseeable future. 387 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,400 The last person I talked to that was trying to help me determine what therapist to start 388 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,200 with, I talked through all my issues. 389 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:54,320 I have a list and they said it was usually six to 12 sessions per item. 390 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,320 I have eight items. 391 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,600 I'm going to be in therapy for a while. 392 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Right. 393 00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,600 And I'm fine with that. 394 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,320 I get it. 395 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:06,320 There will probably be a point where I don't need to be in active therapy, but there's. 396 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,960 You have a good therapist. 397 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:10,960 Right. 398 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,440 But there's a lot to be said for what therapy can do. 399 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,960 Anyway, coping strategies, the rubber band. 400 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,600 I now use the rubber band for everything. 401 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,960 All thoughts that go astray. 402 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,360 It's not just the sexual things. 403 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,400 Like if I see someone and I start objectifying them, I snap the rubber band. 404 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,400 But it's not just that. 405 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:38,400 If I see something I want to buy and I know I can't buy it, but then maybe my brain starts 406 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,920 to think how I did in the past where what's a way that I can finagle this. 407 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:49,200 I snap the rubber band and I recenter my thought because I don't want those thoughts, which 408 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,840 are natural to stay around. 409 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,400 And a lot of people have the ability when those thoughts come in to just, yeah, I'm 410 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,720 not going to think about that. 411 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,640 And that's great. 412 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,840 I'm a dreamer. 413 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,400 I like to daydream. 414 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,760 When my brain starts going on a whimsical journey, I just let it. 415 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,920 And that's just the habit that I've created. 416 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,680 It's the brain that I've trained my whole life. 417 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,220 So the rubber band really helps me with that lifestyle changes. 418 00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:20,220 We installed. 419 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:26,960 I don't remember the first app we tried canopy and now we're trying Covenant eyes and we 420 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:27,960 haven't. 421 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,800 I don't think we fully decided which one we want to go with yet, but the whole idea behind 422 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,040 them is their accountability apps. 423 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:40,160 They help keep you accountable to the things that you're looking at on your phone and on 424 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,160 your computer. 425 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,520 Other lifestyle changes. 426 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:55,560 I decided last week as good as social media can be in a lot of ways, I'm not comfortable 427 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,640 having access to them because that's where most of my use was. 428 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,460 It was on social media and it could be Instagram, Tik Tok, X. 429 00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:06,460 Snapchat. 430 00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:12,240 Yeah, I never, fortunately, I never figured out how to use Snapchat. 431 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:19,800 So that wasn't an issue, but I deleted them and these accountability apps that we have 432 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,800 now, if I want to download a new app, you and I have to have a discussion first. 433 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:32,960 I like that because if I get a text and it's for Instagram and I want to watch it, I start 434 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,240 to think, do I need to though? 435 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,840 Probably just a really dumb, albeit funny video. 436 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:42,840 My puppy videos. 437 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:43,840 They're hilarious. 438 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,440 Your puppy videos are awesome. 439 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,600 I just don't need it. 440 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:56,520 I don't have to have it in my life and there was just something very freeing about deleting 441 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:57,920 those. 442 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:05,160 They were just my avenue to using pornography and it doesn't mean that I'm a proponent for 443 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,200 everybody getting rid of social media. 444 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,240 I just know for me, that was the right decision, which brings me to the third prong and it's 445 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,240 the relationship with your savior. 446 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,240 And that's where I have fallen short, watch your mic. 447 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,200 That's where I've fallen short my whole life. 448 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,040 I haven't prioritized my spirituality until now. 449 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,880 When I went to see my therapist and I said, I word-vomited all the things. 450 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:42,760 The first discussion we had was on core beliefs and we went through and determined what my 451 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,600 core beliefs are. 452 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:53,160 And it was family, my spirituality and my creativity. 453 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:59,480 And I had never created those. 454 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,000 I was saying we have five minutes left. 455 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,000 I know. 456 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Okay. 457 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,000 What's that? 458 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,520 You only have three? 459 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Three core beliefs. 460 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:15,800 I have six, but I think the practice that we did said to narrow it down to your top 461 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,080 three. 462 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,360 There was something therapeutic about that. 463 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:25,080 It was like, even if it was just the serotonin release of making it simpler, but that's been 464 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,360 my focus through recovery. 465 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:34,560 The choice that I have in front of me when I'm mindful enough to put it this way, does 466 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,160 it satisfy my core beliefs? 467 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:45,440 So we can talk more about when I got my new job, because there's a lot to uncover there. 468 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,240 When it came down to it, how did it affect my core beliefs? 469 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:58,360 So that is the biggest difference between now and previous times is my connection to 470 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:05,160 spirituality and my connection with the Savior and my effort to improve my testimony and 471 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,080 my relationship with God. 472 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:15,320 And I think one way to showcase that is when I say, well, I'm doing this, and then your 473 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,960 comment is, well, it didn't work last time. 474 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,880 How many times in the last 21 years would that have been something that I would get 475 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,040 butt hurt about? 476 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,040 Every time. 477 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,040 Okay. 478 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,120 I guess I can't argue with math. 479 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,480 Didn't think that question through, because that's true. 480 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,480 That sucks to hear. 481 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,480 But yeah. 482 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,840 Every time. 483 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:48,080 But you know, lately, I'm just telling myself, you're not saying these things to intentionally 484 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,320 cause me harm. 485 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:54,680 As much as that might feel like what you're doing, you're not. 486 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,640 And I'm having a more reasonable conversation. 487 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,880 And then I have a feeling of peace. 488 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,920 And then I know that the decision that I've made about that is right. 489 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,360 I think it took 11 minutes to answer your question. 490 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,080 How do you feel about the answer to that question? 491 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:20,320 What was the question? 492 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,560 Why is this time different? 493 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,560 Why is it different? 494 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,200 Why didn't I do it in 2009? 495 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,740 Why didn't I decide to change any other time when we've had an argument and you were sitting 496 00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:38,760 on the ground crying, wondering where we go from here? 497 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,320 I knew at the time that it was going to take me a while to answer that question. 498 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:48,440 And first of all, knowing who you are, thank you for letting me get through that. 499 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,800 That was kind of a slight, but ingest. 500 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:53,800 Because it was a lot. 501 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,800 You're not deceptive. 502 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,840 I don't interrupt as much. 503 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,840 I have noticed that. 504 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:00,840 Intuition. 505 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,120 We have more to talk about. 506 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,120 In the next episode. 507 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,840 Tune in next week. 508 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,840 We will continue this because this is a great topic. 509 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,440 And it's very cathartic. 510 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,360 Therapeutic. 511 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,280 It's both. 512 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,280 I love that. 513 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,560 I feel amazing. 514 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,560 So we're going to continue this, but that's it for this episode. 515 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,960 Thank you so much for listening. 516 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,960 And we will talk to you next week. 517 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,960 Bye. 518 00:30:37,960 --> 00:31:06,580 Peace.