Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in.
Welcome back to the Justin and Heidi Unfiltered Podcast.
I am Justin.
And I'm Heidi.
And we've got a new topic today.
The last couple episodes were heavy and raw.
Thank you for listening.
We went places with those episodes and it got kind of rough, but I'm glad we did those
episodes.
And we've got a new topic today, like I mentioned.
The topic is something is off.
Like why we ignore relationship red flags.
And we'll talk about how common it is.
And just to kind of explain further what that is, do you want to chime in?
Not yet.
Okay, fair enough.
It's essentially when your relationship is moving along and someone has an intuition
or feeling something is off.
And all too often the person who feels that intuition chooses not to act on it because
of one reason or another.
And we'll talk about what some common reasons are.
Or they act on it and the other person lies to their face.
Yes.
We should do these on video.
I feel like seeing your face as that was said would help the listener tremendously.
I in retrospect, pee a little.
That's just me.
A good deal of this is from an article that my group therapist shared with Heidi and I
last week.
Two weeks ago.
It was an article called Betrayal Blindness by Dr. Freyd.
I hope I'm saying that right.
But Jennifer Freyd is, she's, I guess, coined this phrase betrayal blindness and has written
extensively on it.
And it's fascinating.
In fact, I want to read an excerpt.
Is that a word?
So this is a kind of coping mechanism.
And in the past, the behavior has been labeled as denial.
A lot of people have just said, well, you're in denial.
Dr. Freyd argues that it's much deeper than that, which makes sense.
And when she drills it down to calling it betrayal blindness, we'll talk about that
through this episode and maybe another one where the deception and the things that we
decide to do about that feeling are just, it's not just denial.
Denial is just not a good enough tag for it.
So we want to set the stage for an honest and insightful conversation about why we sometimes
choose to overlook warning signs.
And Heidi's promised to be nice.
And I've promised to not cry while we're recording.
And I say that because we've had some rough moments and I've caused some issues.
And we're going to be talking about things that are hard.
So my thing is, is when they talk about betrayal blindness, I think they're referring to the
one who's looking past the one who's using the abuser.
Right.
But the more that I sit here and think about it, the more I think, but I didn't.
I talked to you.
You lied to my face point blank.
So is that betrayal blindness because I trusted you because you lied to me or you betrayal?
Are you doing the betrayal on the blind?
That's yeah, that's interesting.
I mean, I want to say it's kind of, we kind of both participated, but I don't want that
to come off like this is a blame thing and we're sharing blame.
I just think that's the reality of what happened.
And again, the bottom line is here, you confronted me on multiple occasions and I made the wrong
choice.
I was deceitful.
I lied about the things that I was doing.
And now that is what the issue is.
Right.
So we're discussing how oftentimes in relationships, people engage in more of a willful but not
willful, but like almost subconscious ignorance of it.
Because they always say that deep down you did know.
And they're not wrong.
Deep down, I knew something was up because you were gaining weight again.
I knew you weren't eating food from home.
You were playing video games like all the time.
You weren't doing anything healthy.
Basically, you were just self-destructive.
Right.
And you've done that your entire life.
So when does it become like, well, that's just who he is and that's just what he likes
to do.
And when does it become, oh, he must be using it again.
Yeah.
And I think to your point earlier, I think that's really where we kind of stand apart
because we, meaning you, you've never been the one to just kind of accept the status
quo if it doesn't feel right, which is why I don't think you ever engaged in full betrayal
blindness and then sat with it for years.
And unfortunately, I think that took a lot of deception on my part to get to a point
where it was passable.
That sucks because that means I had countless opportunities to make it right, to do the
right thing.
So see, that's also where you learned what you did need to do to pass.
Yeah.
Air quotes.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's the choice.
You can either learn, I need to come clean.
I need to do the right thing or, Hey, I need to say it a certain way so that it's a certain
thing.
Right.
And if I'm hitting the bar, the bare minimum, we're surviving.
Yeah.
Not even surviving.
We were living fine, but we definitely weren't living what we could have been.
You're right.
I do add, I still am harboring, if I'm being honest, a lot of shame for the things that
I've done.
In the last 170 days of my sobriety, I've been really focusing on it.
Sometimes I can be a bit rough, but in honesty, we've had some amazing years together.
We really have.
And it does, it's a shame that in general, I was deceitful for a good portion of it.
It wasn't a constant every single day thing.
Right.
And we were happy.
And we'll talk about that in a few minutes later on to the podcast of how that's a social
norm.
So yeah, we'll come back to that.
But let's start with intuitions.
Let's talk about the concept of intuition and how it manifests in relationships like
gut feelings or subtle clues or emotional shifts.
What are things that you notice?
Like with you?
Yeah.
Well, like I said, it was for me, most of the time it was the overeating or knowing
that you're not eating from home.
So you're hiding something because you're not a small guy.
So I know you're eating.
Right.
And then just what you did with your pastime, the things that would get done and the things
that would not get done.
But then what you were doing.
Yeah.
I mean, at my peak weight, I was four hundred and thirty seven pounds last year in twenty
twenty four.
No, it was in twenty twenty three.
So that absolutely was a thing.
Over-eating is a big thing for me.
I eat my feelings.
Eating things, I really like talking about that one because there were so many times
I remember where I would just forget something that shouldn't be forgotten.
You know, like it's a routine every day.
You go pick up your kids from school or you go to an appointment that's in the calendar
or you know, your general responsibility is to perform certain tasks at home.
And I just would do them.
And looking back, I know and from what I've learned from therapy and from group therapy
and addiction recovery, there's so much in my brain that's focused on maintaining the
status quo that there's just nothing left to handle the minutiae, which is the important
things.
But when you say maintaining the status quo, it's maintaining the deception you were living.
Yeah.
It's not status quo.
That's fair.
It's what I viewed as the status quo.
Right.
But it was so hard for you to maintain your deception.
You just.
And so that's where it's like, yeah, my intuition was kicking in.
It was there was multiple times when we fought hard.
And usually your retaliation in those fights was I don't have to take this from you.
You don't get to treat me like that.
Yeah.
I was crazy defensive.
When it was immediately, it was something where it's like, why did you leave all of
your medicine out and go play video games?
Yeah.
Filling up my medicine things for the week.
And yeah, I'm going to do it later.
Then why pull it?
Why?
And they were dumb.
Yeah.
That was the argument.
Well, that's a dumb decision.
And then boom.
How dare you?
Yeah.
How was kind of the thought process?
Yeah.
Tell me that I'm doing.
I can do it my way if I want.
Right.
So I dig my heels in and we, yeah, we would just fight.
But if I wasn't so heightened with anxiety and deception and deception and fun fact,
I'm still on the same dosage of an anxiety medication now that I have been for years.
But my anxiety is at an absolute low point.
Yeah.
Cause you're not trying to maintain.
So most people, I feel like most people experience anxiety when there's too much going on.
Correct?
You have music playing, TV playing, kids fighting in the background.
You're trying to concentrate on something.
And that's when you're like, everyone just needs to shut up.
Right.
And when you're in a state of deception where you're trying to keep a lie, make sure you
do what you're supposed to do daily and you know, basic hygiene and needs, that's the
anxiety part.
That's what gets you going.
Everyone else needs to shut up because I can't focus anymore because you already have too
much going on in your brain.
Right.
So again, there was no room for anything else.
So again, when we talk about intuition, when my anxiety gets raised, it's usually not very
often because I don't have deception, I guess you could say.
So like, yeah, we, when we were driving today and I was like, the radio was on, Ella wanted
to talk.
You wanted to just listen to your music, but I, and I was working and it was like, just
turn the music down.
Right.
I needed one of those three things to just not be.
She said, turn the music down.
Did you?
Sure.
It didn't.
And then, okay.
I mean, to be fair, you then turned it down a millisecond later.
So yeah, it was still computing in my brain before I turned it down.
You're not wrong, but come on, let's tell the whole story.
But anyway, you turned it down and I didn't cause any, a millisecond in anxiety is how
long.
Oh my gosh.
Listen, I don't know if this is going to work out if you keep speaking my language.
Okay.
I'm the one with anxiety.
You're the healthy one.
Stop taking my things.
Yeah, I don't have to be medicated for it.
You take my jokes.
You take, you ruin my jokes.
You stop taking things from me.
The only reason you think I ruin them is because people laugh.
They're not supposed to because I'm, they're my jokes.
They're jokes.
I was a minute ago going to agree with you and say, yeah, you just, you're not a deceptive
person.
Stealing is deception.
Being the first to say something is not stealing.
I strongly disagree.
Where'd you get all those jokes?
You actually thought them up all on your own Z. Stealing.
This press conference is over.
We have lists.
Let's bring it back.
No more, no more sidetracks.
You stopped derailing this.
Let's talk more about those red flags, like those, those changes in behavior.
And I mean, I like the link to anxiety, but I think that's just one way, like the heightened
anxiety for kind of like no reason.
Like if jobs going well, things are generally good at home, but then there's just this spike
in anxiety, you should probably just do yourself a favor.
Just think, I mean, do you have a gut feeling about when if you were to witness an outburst
first, you know, take, take stock of the situation.
Are you feeling anything?
Is your intuition telling you anything?
And then just try to decide, is this a red flag?
My partner giving a red flag.
Cause we had more, we had more discussions.
The fights that we've had in the past year, they have gotten to that point where it's
like, where are we, where is this heading?
The last fight we had before you started therapy and on your road to recovery was the last,
that was the last, like my most shameful moment.
Yeah.
But how come all of the other fights before where I'm crying, sitting on the floor, crying
and saying, what next?
What do we do?
Where do we go from here?
Why didn't that trigger something else?
That is a good question.
One we did not discuss in the pre podcast meeting.
Oh, I, you know, I guess I have thought of it, but I don't, I haven't given it enough
thought to think it through because I'm worried about the answer.
Cause what does it say for me?
This last one, you gave me an ultimatum.
I don't want to live like this.
So make a different choice.
And I was sleeping in the other room.
So it was pretty clear I needed to change my behavior.
And at that point, pornography addiction was not part of the equation.
It was just the way that I was reacting and acting and treating you.
So that's what's more important then is because you started therapy for anger management.
Yes.
It was not for pornography addiction.
And I think, I think I remember telling you, but again, remembering what I have told you,
I caused another issue when I started, I just, I said everything I said here with my therapist,
I wanted to just get it all out so we can have the best possible foundation.
And we knew immediately, you know, the underlying issue is the prevailing addiction to pornography.
How did that not come up from, cause again, this was not your first round with pornography
and recovery and addiction and group therapy.
So when we would have those fights before, and I would tell you, make a choice.
This can't keep going on.
Yeah.
Would you then try not to use?
That's not an answer for every single time.
Right.
So, um, so let me, let me answer the first question and I'll come back to this and I've
got something to share from one of my group therapy sessions.
Cause your question is why, why was it this time and not all the other times like in those
fights and those were hard to be fighting and see how it was affecting you.
There was a voice in my head saying, just, just end it, come clean on everything.
But the fear was so much stronger betrayal blindness.
Yeah.
So they, like I said, this is an interesting topic because when Kendra first, sorry, said
her name, but when she first, um, had us read that and I read it and I understand it and
I did like, and I, and there is a part of me that like says, yeah, that could be me.
But at the same time, it wasn't really, cause we were fighting about these things.
I wasn't just turning a blind eye going, that's just what he does.
Right.
Not necessarily.
Right.
But you are still lying to me.
I think it's fair to say that in almost every situation you were doing the right things
and I perpetuated the issue.
I was the one living in deceit, not you.
So I was calling you out on it.
You were, you were so, and it's funny cause in this pre podcast thing, you felt differently
about how betrayal blindness works.
It couldn't apply to me, but really it does.
And I definitely that played a part of it, but it was part of me convincing myself of
certain lies that were, that I wanted to be truth, but also there was intentional deception.
And there's just no excuse for that.
And I think that the overall thing with betrayal blindness is we kind of do it hoping that
we're wrong about the other person, but mine was different because there's honestly, it
was more malicious.
I knew what I was doing was wrong.
Right.
But you didn't want me to leave.
Yeah.
And I would do anything to avoid that.
So what made this last time different?
You gave me an ultimatum.
That's what made it different.
But there is a three-pronged approach to successful recovery.
And this wasn't, this wasn't part of my first recovery.
So it was, it was a great experience that I learned a lot that I've come back to know
now from back in 2009.
One of the reasons that it didn't sustain is because I didn't create something that
was going to last for the rest of my life.
And I didn't see it like that.
I saw it as an affliction, a virus, even though I was saying it, I'm going to struggle with
this my whole life.
Eventually I stopped doing the things to keep me safe.
Yeah.
Like the rubber band.
Stopped wearing the rubber band.
I eventually through an upgrade on an iPhone was able to download apps again, and then
found out ways to go on to certain social media apps that had access to it would show,
I mean, Twitter shows everything.
There's no filters on Twitter.
I would strongly recommend that you don't ever go there or exit as it is now.
And I just, you know, I stopped.
There were no, there were no any more barricades between me and my addiction.
And then when I started using again, this seat came right back with it because it has
to.
So there's a three prong approach to successful recovery.
There's one, the self discipline.
And when you do the self discipline alone, it's called white knuckling, quitting cold
turkey.
It doesn't work.
But that's part of successful recovery.
It just doesn't work.
It doesn't work on its own.
You can't say it doesn't work.
It's not the most successful.
If there are people who have succeeded with it, then that's great.
Okay.
So it's fair.
It's not fair for me to generalize and say it doesn't work.
My experience is that it doesn't work for me.
Okay.
Well, so far none of them have, but.
Okay.
Two is coping strategies and lifestyle changes.
And we did some of those things back in 2009 and I'm doing them now.
Coping strategies, the way that I see them now, I want to continue therapy on a regular
basis for the foreseeable future.
That's not how therapy works.
You don't think so?
I want to go to therapy all the time.
I get it.
You're supposed to recover.
I understand that.
Okay.
So I'm going to be in therapy for the foreseeable future.
The last person I talked to that was trying to help me determine what therapist to start
with, I talked through all my issues.
I have a list and they said it was usually six to 12 sessions per item.
I have eight items.
I'm going to be in therapy for a while.
Right.
And I'm fine with that.
I get it.
There will probably be a point where I don't need to be in active therapy, but there's.
You have a good therapist.
Right.
But there's a lot to be said for what therapy can do.
Anyway, coping strategies, the rubber band.
I now use the rubber band for everything.
All thoughts that go astray.
It's not just the sexual things.
Like if I see someone and I start objectifying them, I snap the rubber band.
But it's not just that.
If I see something I want to buy and I know I can't buy it, but then maybe my brain starts
to think how I did in the past where what's a way that I can finagle this.
I snap the rubber band and I recenter my thought because I don't want those thoughts, which
are natural to stay around.
And a lot of people have the ability when those thoughts come in to just, yeah, I'm
not going to think about that.
And that's great.
I'm a dreamer.
I like to daydream.
When my brain starts going on a whimsical journey, I just let it.
And that's just the habit that I've created.
It's the brain that I've trained my whole life.
So the rubber band really helps me with that lifestyle changes.
We installed.
I don't remember the first app we tried canopy and now we're trying Covenant eyes and we
haven't.
I don't think we fully decided which one we want to go with yet, but the whole idea behind
them is their accountability apps.
They help keep you accountable to the things that you're looking at on your phone and on
your computer.
Other lifestyle changes.
I decided last week as good as social media can be in a lot of ways, I'm not comfortable
having access to them because that's where most of my use was.
It was on social media and it could be Instagram, Tik Tok, X.
Snapchat.
Yeah, I never, fortunately, I never figured out how to use Snapchat.
So that wasn't an issue, but I deleted them and these accountability apps that we have
now, if I want to download a new app, you and I have to have a discussion first.
I like that because if I get a text and it's for Instagram and I want to watch it, I start
to think, do I need to though?
Probably just a really dumb, albeit funny video.
My puppy videos.
They're hilarious.
Your puppy videos are awesome.
I just don't need it.
I don't have to have it in my life and there was just something very freeing about deleting
those.
They were just my avenue to using pornography and it doesn't mean that I'm a proponent for
everybody getting rid of social media.
I just know for me, that was the right decision, which brings me to the third prong and it's
the relationship with your savior.
And that's where I have fallen short, watch your mic.
That's where I've fallen short my whole life.
I haven't prioritized my spirituality until now.
When I went to see my therapist and I said, I word-vomited all the things.
The first discussion we had was on core beliefs and we went through and determined what my
core beliefs are.
And it was family, my spirituality and my creativity.
And I had never created those.
I was saying we have five minutes left.
I know.
Okay.
What's that?
You only have three?
Three core beliefs.
I have six, but I think the practice that we did said to narrow it down to your top
three.
There was something therapeutic about that.
It was like, even if it was just the serotonin release of making it simpler, but that's been
my focus through recovery.
The choice that I have in front of me when I'm mindful enough to put it this way, does
it satisfy my core beliefs?
So we can talk more about when I got my new job, because there's a lot to uncover there.
When it came down to it, how did it affect my core beliefs?
So that is the biggest difference between now and previous times is my connection to
spirituality and my connection with the Savior and my effort to improve my testimony and
my relationship with God.
And I think one way to showcase that is when I say, well, I'm doing this, and then your
comment is, well, it didn't work last time.
How many times in the last 21 years would that have been something that I would get
butt hurt about?
Every time.
Okay.
I guess I can't argue with math.
Didn't think that question through, because that's true.
That sucks to hear.
But yeah.
Every time.
But you know, lately, I'm just telling myself, you're not saying these things to intentionally
cause me harm.
As much as that might feel like what you're doing, you're not.
And I'm having a more reasonable conversation.
And then I have a feeling of peace.
And then I know that the decision that I've made about that is right.
I think it took 11 minutes to answer your question.
How do you feel about the answer to that question?
What was the question?
Why is this time different?
Why is it different?
Why didn't I do it in 2009?
Why didn't I decide to change any other time when we've had an argument and you were sitting
on the ground crying, wondering where we go from here?
I knew at the time that it was going to take me a while to answer that question.
And first of all, knowing who you are, thank you for letting me get through that.
That was kind of a slight, but ingest.
Because it was a lot.
You're not deceptive.
I don't interrupt as much.
I have noticed that.
Intuition.
We have more to talk about.
In the next episode.
Tune in next week.
We will continue this because this is a great topic.
And it's very cathartic.
Therapeutic.
It's both.
I love that.
I feel amazing.
So we're going to continue this, but that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for listening.
And we will talk to you next week.
Bye.
Peace.