Teyshi (00:18)
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Kashmir Exists. Every week we try to look for some interesting guests, interesting topics, something we can learn from something new. I have the pleasure of being on some great panels on TikTok and I meet some great people.

This week I have a wonderful lady to introduce to you. name is Sparta. She's here. Welcome, Sparta.

Sparta (00:46)
Hey, Teyshi, thanks for having me.

Teyshi (00:49)
it's my pleasure. You're full of information, which is one of the, main reasons that, I wanted to have you on, Maria appears on this podcast. She was really eager for you to come on as well. And we thought, well, why? Okay. Big, that's a big buildup. Well, why are we here? We're here as usual to talk about

occupied people, occupied people struggles, independence, all of that kind of stuff that we all feel so passionate about, never more so than currently. of course, when I met you on the panel, Sparta, one of the things that we talked about is maybe talking about Turtle Island. So that's the subject that we want to talk about today. And we were hoping you could answer some questions.

Sparta (01:34)
Absolutely. Let's get started.

Teyshi (01:36)
Okay, well, now here's the thing. Not many people, including myself, have heard of the term Turtle Island. I heard about it about two years ago because of a virtual event taking place. It was during COVID and it was titled From Turtle Island to Palestine to Kashmir. And if anyone Googles that, you can find it on YouTube.

And I was like, Turtle Island, where's that? I thought it was like some far off island somewhere, in Oceania or somewhere. I didn't know where it was. And I was like, oh, that's America. Why have I not heard that? Right. And I don't think we hear that. I think that in itself shows that there's this hidden history, right, of people who are always struggling to be seen and to find their independence. I think that's quite emblematic, really, of the fact that history is written by the colonisers.

the expression turtle island. We should know this really. So yeah, that's why I've asked you on Sparta and I will preface my question with saying, yeah, I've only just known it. So listeners, if you've not heard of turtle island, It's essentially America. And of course we're interested in the native Americans and their struggles. So I'll begin with my first question on this one. And I did sort of talk about turtle island as an expression.

What is the significance of the term Turtle Island in indigenous worldviews and how does it challenge colonial naming of North America?

Sparta (03:05)
So I, like yourself, just learned about the meaning of Turtle Island not too long ago, perhaps within the last 18 months. And I started reading a book, which I'm probably going to refer to at different times, called An Indigenous People's History of the United States, which has been super eye-opening. And when it talked about challenging the colonial naming of North America, right in this book, in the very beginning, the author's note,

I'll read a quick quote from here. This author is discussing the author, the way, is Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz, if anyone's interested in the book. this author is discussing her use of terminology throughout the book, in this author's note. And at the end here, she says, I also refrain from using quote America and quote American.

When referring only to the United States and its citizens, those blatantly imperialistic terms annoy people in the rest of the Western Hemisphere, who are after all also Americans. I use United States as a noun and US as an adjective to refer to the country and US Americans for its citizens. And so the reason why I thought of this when you asked the question, as a person who lives in the United States, I am guilty of

saying, well, we're Americans, this is America, blah, blah, always kind of using that word without another thought. And when I first read that, it kind of made me think like a lot of things myself and I'm sure others like we just don't even think what we're saying sometimes. So that was one of my wake up calls to this topic that I can remember in reading this book. And this is page three of the whole book. this is a whole continent. North America is a whole continent.

And the naming of it is literally a colonial name. It has so many different tribes and cultures that were existing here for so much longer than the word America or North America even. So I hope that answers the question somewhat.

Teyshi (04:59)
Yeah, that's perfect. Thank you so much. how did the arrival of European settlers disrupt indigenous governance systems land stewardship?

and ways of life on Turtle Island.

Sparta (05:13)
So again, I'm new to this topic. I'm not an indigenous person. I am a new person learning about this stuff. And I will plug another book that I'm reading currently called A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, which is super eye opening and how these European settlers, I mean, there's so much in there, talks about the story of Columbus and how he really wasn't such a great guy. And they leave a lot of that, they actually leave most of that part out when we're going through the public school system here in the United States.

You're not told all the nasty things that Columbus and his crews did. But what I've learned through this book is about these the indigenous governance systems. So the indigenous government systems, what I learned recently that has stuck with me that I think about often, actually, because of the world we live in right now, is how when these European colonisers arrived, they found the people

They didn't have like this structure of government that resembled anything that Europe had at the time. The children in the indigenous cultures, again, according to what I'm reading, they were raised to not blindly obey authority, right? They were raised to be independent minded, right? But at the same time, to be part of their community.

and to be a good part of the community. if you didn't behave in a way that was good for the entire community, there were ways to handle that outside of the punitive systems that we may see today that are extension, in my opinion, of this colonizing mentality. It was more matriarchal. That's the other thing that I picked up on the matriarchy systems. As far as land stewardship, the concept that land doesn't belong to anybody and that

to me, it makes a lot more sense than the way we do it today. if you think about should anybody own the air? Should anybody be able to, make it so that you can't breathe the air? That's kind of what it's like with housing. We have housing shortages, not just in the US, but other parts of the world. Why is that? Why do people have to be homeless? These concepts are like non-existent in the Indigenous systems.

land was not something that you could own and monopolize. It was something that you were steward of. So, it was just a couple of things that I've been learning about recently.

Teyshi (07:26)
Yeah, I think that's a really good explanation. think that is strange because deep down we know nobody owns any land. We know this in our hearts. We just live in that construct, unfortunately. But along the way, indigenous people in America had to sort get on with it, unfortunately, because that was their reality. And part of that was some of the treaties made.

in what ways do the treaties made between Indigenous nations and settler governments continue to shape land rights and sovereignty struggles today?

Sparta (08:02)
again, in the same book that I just quoted the people's history, where, the government of the United States, the Revolutionary War, would make these different treaties and prior to the war as well. But I'm finding a pattern of these treaties were often made in coercive ways, right?

or at any event, they weren't honored. I don't know if there's ever been a treaty that they have honored. The government of the United States has actually like kept their word. so there's that. and then with the sovereignty

it's a continual struggle and that, they're still facing things like poor access to resources like water. Also, I know that there is still continues to be issues with pipelines and the infringement upon their land sovereignty. So, there's different things that I've read throughout the news, like over the past year. I've seen some wins for the Indigenous people. But again, guess the point is it continues to be a struggle.

and

I don't know. think that a lot more needs to be done and people like me need to continue to educate ourselves so that we can support government policies or not support government policies that are making the problem worse for the indigenous people. I think that's a, solution is why I'm trying to these books and educate myself.

Teyshi (09:14)
Yeah, obviously when you think about the native people's history in that land well predates any European newcomers and modern day idea of America. The other thing is there is a theory based on DNA studies.

that the, you know, original native people came somewhere from Asia across the Beringa Strait which now no longer exists, but that just tells you that it was so long ago.

and it no longer exists It goes to show you how long ago they were in that land So I wanted to make that point about the Beringa Strait and I would encourage people that don't know about it to look that up fast forward to now, of course America being colonized by the West as in Europeans and terms like

Reservations. It's crazy how we see this continual theme of Westerners who colonize Indigenous people and really push them back on the edge of a land in a way that we're taking this off you because we're the big bad bully. That's really how it feels to me and I'm just speaking from the heart there. But there has been a resistance and with all occupation there will always be a resistance, right? That is just

how human beings are programmed to resist. And I'm just wondering from you, Sparta, how do you think that indigenous communities on Turtle Island resisted cultural assimilation and work to revitalize their languages and traditions?

Sparta (10:54)
I think the fact that the Indigenous communities still exist is a testament to their resistance, number one, because they do still exist. And despite the powers that be, that would rather them not exist, right? And just remain in the shadows. because the powers that be, meaning the American government, the public school system, largely ignores the fact that Indigenous people still exist.

Again, from where I stand as a non-Indigenous person who has been growing up in the United States of America, gone through the school system, sure, they teach us about different tribes and Thanksgiving and everybody was happy and ate some food together and that's kind of it. In the school system, you're taught as if this was something that happened long ago, right? But the reality is where I live is in the Northeastern part of the country, which is where a lot of the...

OG original settler colonialism took place, A lot of the tribes that were impacted are where I live. And so, I was happy to learn over the past, I think it was last Thanksgiving that I really looked into it because I know what that day is really about now. And I learned that the tribes that existed at the time of the original colonizing that occurred on Turtle Island, they're still here.

And they've been quite active in pushing different measures. So for example, there's a holiday in the United States called Columbus Day, which is very sick if you think about it, that every year we celebrate this day called Columbus Day. You get a day off school, a day off work, right? And what are we really celebrating? We're celebrating this vile human being that did g-side But it was the Indigenous people I found out that were behind getting this day.

to be changed to Indigenous Peoples Day. And I noticed for the first time this past year, you know, you get your calendar and it has like the pre-filled out, you know, holidays on your calendar. Sometimes you get one of these and normally it say Columbus Day, but this year I noticed it said Indigenous Peoples Day in addition to Columbus. And I'm like, wow, okay. The Indigenous people were behind that push. It seems like such a small thing, but it's really not.

The end goal of genocide, as I have learned, is erasure. It's making it so that people never existed. And so, that was just one thing that I thought was really huge and it led me to find the different things going on in my area. And the tribe nearby, have every year on Thanksgiving, they do a big event for their people at the day of mourning, actually is what they call it, which makes a lot of sense to me.

I think they're doing the best they can despite, the intense moves and everything that's been done to them to try to erase them, but they're still here.

Teyshi (13:39)
that's wonderful. I must admit over the past how long? Five years maybe a little bit more. There's definitely been things that I've heard as someone in Britain and totally unconnected to what goes on in America, shall we put it that way, hearing people saying we're not celebrating Columbus Day and then going into the reasons why.

I remember being quite like, yeah, that's kind of wild that people celebrate this day and yet it signifies so much destruction and tragedy for indigenous people of America. And I remember my visceral reaction is that is so bad. there's so much injustice. And from the point of view of the West and how the West really have gone around marauding, let's be honest with you. That's the word that I'm gonna use.

it reminded me of Israelis when the Nakba happened, they celebrate their independence. But their independence was really a lot of death and destruction for Palestinians, a lot of tragedy. And so one person's independence

is another person's absolute annihilation and heartbreak. I think if we look at South Asia as well, 1947, India gained its independence from the UK. But then shortly after that, there was the newly formed Pakistan and the newly formed India.

and they both celebrate that day as an independence day, but it didn't come without a lot of bloodshed because as soon as partition, as it was called. So if you imagine that the old version of India, which was the colonial version of India actually, because India wasn't really known as India as such, it was just a collection of different kingdoms and principalities and what have you. And so the idea of that landmass being called India is really something that

the British called it, And especially they'd been there for such a long time before colonizing it, doing a lot of trade through the East India Company. And so this idea of India, as we know it now, is a construct from the coloniser. when eventually India did get its freedom from Britain,

And they drew that line of partition in a quick rush in a few weeks. But that in itself, although it's celebrated as an independence day for India and Pakistan respectively, it actually caused a lot of bloodshed for people on both sides. Because if you were the wrong religion on the wrong side, you literally had to pick up everything and run and go across the border because you stood to be massacred.

if you were found to be the wrong religion and yet that celebrated as independence but also we know that shortly thereafter, Kashmir was sold down the river by its illegal ruler, Hari Singh, and it was acceded to India and again there's a lot of tragedy for Kashmiris to this day.

that. So it just reminded me of this whole idea of one man's independence day or one person's independence day is another person's death and destruction essentially that's kind of what it reminded me of. So now that we've used a little bit of the Turtle Island history to link it in with the Kashmir and even Palestine

the patterns emerge in colonization, it's always the same. There's always an undercurrent and there's always something we can learn from people who went through it before.

So what do you think the role of settler colonialism in ongoing environmental destruction and displacement of indigenous peoples on Turtle Island?

Sparta (17:31)
reflecting on what it must have been like here on Turtle Island before the settler colonialism took off compared to now and I often do look around and think to myself man, we've really made a mess of this place because it is really beautiful. North America is beautiful where I live. It's stunning. It's beautiful place and yet

let's just look at pollution alone, just pollution. Never mind all of the other things going on with climate change and all of this. But it seems like to me if we here in the US actually took some direction, like you said, there's a lot to be learned from indigenous populations. After all, they were the stewards of the land for generations and generations and probably thousands of years, right? Doing just fine before

European coloniser showed up. And I often think that it would be so much better if that was back in their hands. But at the same time, it's all of our responsibility. I do think that it's a settler colonialism, which is just inherently violent, inherently geocidal, inherently exploitative. It's not, by its nature, settler colonialism is not there to live in harmony.

with the environment and the people and all of the things in nature. So I think that it's what I see. It's continuously exploiting not just people, but the environment, which is, you know, by necessity, to kind of continue the destruction of the environment and also infringe upon the Indigenous people, just further displace them. Like with the pipelines I mentioned earlier, that is something that still happens. And then we have all kinds of

regular environment, things that happen, And then we don't necessarily manage it. Well, we've had a lot over the past year in different parts of the country where people are still without homes and have died.

the bottom line is just that settler colonialism is by its nature, not only violent, but exploitative.

it's there to just suck it dry, suck the land dry, suck the people dry until there's nothing left.

Teyshi (19:26)
I think it's interesting when we look at indigenous people, been on that land and respected it and they care for it and they 100 % think about nature, the resources, respecting the land, the whole holistic side of that. And when you see colonisers come in,

they are very opportunistic, what can we get out of this, which I think is important to say.

because otherwise you could claim that they benignly emigrated and just wanted to settle, right? But it's clear that colonisers have a different kind of mindset as you say, exploiting and...

And that must be really painful for indigenous people along with bringing all kinds of diseases and all

there's another bit that sometimes we look at is education. This is a tool for the coloniser, for their narrative. And how do you think that the residential school system impacted generations of indigenous peoples across Turtle Island? And how is that legacy addressed today?

Sparta (20:36)
So this is a topic I did watch a documentary on several years ago now. And I know when I saw that documentary, I couldn't sleep afterwards. I cried my eyes out. It was haunting. It was heartbreaking. And it was something that I had never been taught about that this occurred and actually how recent that it was happening. through social media and especially TikTok, I have

got into listening to a lot of Indigenous people talk about this and how it's impacted them. And I don't want to speak over them or for them. But I can say that, it's painful. disconnected from your culture. some of these people that are here today, their family members not too long ago, maybe parents, grandparents went through this system and should say survived because a lot of Indigenous people did not survive.

the residential school system, so part of that is also the erasing of their languages, their culture, to make them quote unquote, assimilate, Which is just so inherently violent to think about. cutting people off from their heritage, their culture, I think that's part of settler colonialism in general, to disconnect people from their roots, whether it be the indigenous people in the United States here,

the Round Turtle Island or in Kashmir or anywhere else.

as far as the, residential schools, more recently, this actually occurred within the last year. Joe Biden, the president of the United States, prior to the one we have now, who issued a historic apology, in October of 2024. president Joe Biden formally apologized, for the abuses committed by indigenous boarding schools.

for more than a century was during his visit to the Gila River Indian community in Arizona. This is An important step toward healing wounds inflicted upon survivors and their descendants, Native American leaders said, more than 417 schools were funded by the United States to assimilate Native American children.

According to a federal report under President Joe Biden and his interior secretary, more schools, were located in Oklahoma than any other state. At least 973 Native American children died at U.S. funded boarding schools that they were forced to attend. And there were 74 sites where children were buried on the school grounds, including 16 in Oklahoma.

Biden called his apology the most consequential thing he's ever had the opportunity to do as president. He said he wanted to chart a new path toward healing. And this is the quote from him, quote, I formally apologise as president of the United States of America for what we did. I formally apologise. That's long overdue. There's no excuse that this apology took 50 years. It says also Biden's apology comes after Howland's three year investigation.

and to federally run and funded boarding schools for Native children, the department concluded in 2022 that the schools operated for more than a century with the express purpose of eradicating Native cultures and communities. The federal government did not abandon the model until the mid-1900s.

I do think the first step to healing is acknowledgement period. you can't change something that you don't acknowledge.

And when you have a genocide and you have this, centuries long, erasure, intentional erasure, you got to start with an apology or least recognition. So to me, that is important, I'm not going to give Biden a cookie for doing what should have been done a million years ago. And he should have never, this should have never actually happened. But I think just the acknowledgement is important. And I think there needs to be action along with it.

Teyshi (24:03)
Yeah, no, that was brilliant. And I didn't know about some of these terrible atrocities with the schools. Again, it is a recurring theme, but it speaks of unheard heartbreak and absolute crimes, it makes me shudder a little bit because each of those stories represents a human being.

it really is staggering how some people's lives just don't matter compared to others. And it just really speaks of what colonialism and supremacy is about. an attack on humans. It's an attack on that fundamental thing that all life is sacred, number one, and all life is equal. It attacks both those ideas.

It's startling to me that, when they control the education and the curriculum, they control the narrative. beyond that, they're writing the history books and controlling them out of that way. to harm indigenous children in the, schooling system and that be invisible.

thank you for that, Sparta.

And you did partly answer one of my last questions, but before we go on to that, I'm sure you'll elaborate on it more. There are movements by indigenous people, like Idle No More and Land Back. How do they go towards asserting sovereignty and reclaiming space on Turtle Island?

Sparta (25:31)
I think these movements are really important. And again, this is part of my education learning about ways that people like myself can support and not a hindrance. Cause I'm all for Land Back and I would gladly give up where I live in a heartbeat. If that's what it meant. I have no problem with that. I love when people will say things like, if you're debating with a Zionist, they'll say, you live in.

stolen land, why don't you leave?" And I'm like, no problem. Like I will gladly do that. Cause I understand that long-stolen land, I, at one point I had looked into the more local organizations here in the state of Massachusetts this is where I learned about some of the Massachusetts indigenous legislation that are going on. There's a website

like the Massachusetts Indigenous legislative agenda, to me this would kind of still fall under land back. For example, this Massachusetts agenda for the Indigenous talks about

For example, removing racist mascots. Anyone who's from the United States growing up your school, your sports teams, we have mascots and they, very like racist insulting mascots towards indigenous peoples.

mascots are like based off of a caricature essentially of Indigenous people. when you're growing up and you're not taught proper history, you just sort of see these things. I think it is very important because this is a normalisation It's literally normalizing G-side and perpetuating

these stereotypes. So like, how do you ever humanise a people? It's like you've already genocide them, you continue to like try to erase their legacy. And then on top of it, you slander them and defame them and insult them with these mascots that you know, little kids are running around thinking it's just some harmless cute thing. But this is something that have been successful in many cases with removing these mascots. I mentioned this one earlier, the honoring of Indigenous Peoples Day and replacing Columbus Day.

with Indigenous Peoples' Day to celebrate Indigenous resilience and survival. the change acknowledges the true histories of colonialism, genocide, and racism that Native peoples have experienced and continue to face. This is, the five measures that are part of the Massachusetts legislation to celebrate, teach Native American culture and history.

to ensure that school children in Massachusetts learn about the Native American history, culture, and current issues. That goes back to one of your earlier questions. To protect the Native American heritage, to ensure sacred objects, cultural things that are held in government or nonprofit collections aren't sold for profit. And then to lastly, support education and features of Native youth to improve educational outcomes and opportunities for American Indian and Alaskan Native students.

Now these should be already happening, right? But, they're not necessarily happening. for me, part of it is getting involved with some of this stuff as a non-indigenous person. This would be a way that I could help. And others can help just knowing what, what is being done. And there's a lot that I don't know about too. There are great creators online that I have actually come across on TikTok even, and they have YouTube channels and they talk about, you know, what they're working on and they're, they're parts of Turtle Island.

Teyshi (28:32)
That was absolutely perfect. I like all the ways that that there is trying to be some redress the way that you expressed it. I think this is important for a lot of reasons, but when people talk about, the way that conversations that we've definitely been involved in on TikTok, for example, where, Israel is established now, you're not going to get rid of them. And the idea of dismantling, you know, settler colonial.

apartheid systems as if it's unthinkable that they can be dismantled. I think this is important because, we never would have thought 50 years ago that some of the movements and the rights that, as small as they are, that Native people in America now, most people understand how they were, how done by and how really brutally they were treated.

by invaders, I think this is important because we get to see it from the lens of hindsight, which is important when you're people who just don't want to agree that things can change, that brutal dictatorships, any kind of fascistic

state can be overthrown. I think it's important to remind ourselves. So I think you did answer it really, really well. Thank you. But to end on why we're doing this. How do you think that non-Indigenous people can engage meaningfully in decolonisation work?

without replicating colonial power dynamics? That's a really difficult question and interesting question. It's saying, and I know you know what it's saying, but for our audience, I want to be clear while we're asking this. How can we help without slipping back into the ways of colonialism, which is so kind of hardwired because of our human history?

Sparta (30:23)
think this is the million dollar question, Teyshi, the part where you say here, where you ask without replicating the colonial power dynamics. Now that's like the million dollar question. had literally having a similar conversation with a friend earlier today about getting to the root cause of things. You know, we were talking at this conversation had to do with the system of white supremacy, and how,

We're discussing like they're well-meaning white people, know, that classify as white people who are trying to fight or dismantle racism, for example. But, you know, why do you still see they end up replicating the same hierarchy, the same type of system? Maybe they're not trying to be racist, but they have the same underpinnings. I think it is like a journey that will never end.

That's what I think. think it's like literally something that I'll personally be working on for the rest of my life in terms of like decolonising. And I know that I don't know everything, right? if I think I know everything, then I don't know anything. So it's just constantly being teachable and open to learning new things. also like learning from, in this case, we're talking about indigenous people from Turtle Island.

We need to listen to the indigenous people of Turtle Island. Like listen to what they have to say, It's not me, who's a descendant of Eastern Europeans, for example, to say what, what should happen in terms of like, land back, for example, I'm not going to infringe on that movement. So I think just continuing to do the quote unquote work as they say.

And learning about these systems, to me, education is really the most important thing and to be active, find, what it is that, everybody has like a niche or something that they're good at, whether it's reading or educating find your spot, but always continue to learn and to teach others. And I think

just growing up here in Turtle Island, I was actually pretty angry when I realised it's not that they lie to you per se. I mean, sometimes they lie, right? But it's what they leave out. They just don't talk about certain things. And to me, that actually infuriated me because I don't want to be like a coloniser. I don't want to be complicit without knowing. It's like they sort of get you to be complicit without your consent in a way.

but you're kind of consenting by going along with it. There are resources out there that we can learn from that I'm going to continue to learn about and be open to criticism. Like if I am,

criticised or corrected on something that's okay. I should expect that because this is a process. we have to keep going with it.

Teyshi (32:49)
I think for all of us to be open-minded, keep learning, be open to feedback and it's okay to say, yeah, I've got it wrong or I didn't know that. There is no shame In any of those, in all of us, no matter who we are,

There are people that are occupied that don't really know their full history sometimes. I think that when you're brought up in a country, especially when it's the West, you are, let's say programmed in the way that everyone is processed while they're growing up. And then you come to a stage where when you embark on your journey of discovery, you're having to unlearn things. You're having to

unpick things and it's a big mental shift there's there's an element of that of learning to not feel attached or attacked when thoughts and ideas that were so synonymous with this is the truth and this is the history and all of that is challenged this is difficult we see that we see that all the time

whether it's people who are, occupied, whether it's people who occupy, onlookers who have nothing to do with it. It's always about trying to break through that wall that is shielding the truth and trying to break through it with

every tiny little step. and hopefully some of the activism that we're doing online and on podcasts like this will pave small steps to achieving that. And inshallah, All occupied people will be free. And the lessons that we've learned from Turtle Island, the lessons that we've learned from South Africa, the continual lessons that we're learning from occupied Palestine.

and also in Kashmir Valley and Congo, Sudan, etc. Hopefully the ability that we have to not only learn, but share and break through those walls of perception. Insha'Allah that will help to bring everyone free. But listen, everyone,

That's it for today. want to thank Sparta for coming on and answering those, which I think are some pretty tough questions, answering them so well with so much information and references Thank you so much for doing that. That's it for today. See us again next week when we do another Hidden Histories episode.

If you have any feedback or comments, do get in touch with us. You can do that through kushmirexist.org get in touch as well. We'd love to hear from you. But yeah, Sparta, thank you so much

Sparta (35:28)
Thank you, Teyshi. This was great.

Teyshi (35:29)
and hopefully we'll see you again on the podcast soon. But that's it for today everyone. Bye bye.