Teyshi (00:17)
Hello and welcome to the first episode of season two of Kashmir Exists. Welcome back. We had a bit of a break for Ramadan. We took the month off, refreshed, did our fasting, made ourselves better people, hopefully dropped our bad habits as well. Let's hope so. But yeah, and what better way to start than to welcome the wonderful Nes, Nes Raine here with us. Hi Nes

Nes (00:42)
Hey, salam and hello.

Teyshi (00:45)
Walaikum Salam sister. It's so lovely to have you here. You know, I was thinking, what can I do for the first episode of the new series? And I thought it's literally right under my nose. I've got this absolute gem that is Nes. Now, the reason I say that Nes is that you've got your own podcast as well called Culturally Clueless, haven't you?

Nes (01:06)
Yes, they do.

Teyshi (01:07)
So I thought that, well, me and some of the others as part of Kashmir Exists thought that we'd like to learn a little bit more about your podcast and also get our listeners on board to subscribing and maybe broadening their activism horizon. So are you ready to start?

Nes (01:27)
born ready.

Teyshi (01:28)
So brilliant.

I've got a couple of questions, well, about five questions. So I will, I will go straight to it. So Nes, now that I have you here, can I ask you what inspired you to start Culturally Clueless and how does it serve as a platform for advocating for marginalised communities?

Nes (01:51)
So I work in media. I've always wanted to work in media since I was a little child. I wanted to promote other people or make their stories heard, make their voices heard, especially of people whose voices are not cared about enough. And when I started working in media, I had to realize that it's not what I thought it was because you don't get to tell the stories in the way that they're supposed to be told.

You're pretty much forced into a box and that's the reporting you have to do because everything is kind of like, how do I say, everything is kind of like, has to follow rules and regulations in a way. And I don't really stand for that. I'm not somebody who likes to be boxed in. I'm not somebody who likes to be filtered. And I wanted to have my own platform. So I started a podcast years ago and it was like, okay, what am I going to do? How is it going to be?

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was able to grow a platform and I was talking about all kind of like different topics, same like we're doing now on culturally clueless. But since I'm very outspoken and that was the whole purpose of me having my own platform and bringing people on that I choose. So 2023 October come and we all know what happened in October. This is the wake up call for a lot of people.

After that, my platform was banned and I had 80k subscribers. And I was pretty upset in the beginning, but then I was like, well, you know, there is like this question, do you stand for what you stand for or do you care about starting all over again? And I stand what I stand, 10 toes down, you know, with what I said. So yeah, so we started building from scratch. We got attacked again.

And this is our third attempt with Culturally Clueless.

Teyshi (03:47)
wow, I know that it went down once but I didn't know that it was the third time and 80,000 subscribers, that's immense, like what an achievement. How did you think that you actually attained those numbers? What do you think appealed to your audience that made them, either follow or subscribe?

Nes (04:06)
You know, have no idea because I feel like I'm the most boring person. I hate talking about me because I don't feel like I'm bored with myself. feel like everybody else is as well. So I really don't know. I think it was the topics. I think it was the people. I don't think that all the credit belonged to me. think it's, you know, having different guests on from different walks of life, talking about different things, you know, from entrepreneurship to

Teyshi (04:13)
Mm-hmm.

Nes (04:32)
activism to, adversity, basically everything was on that podcast. Also a lot of fun moments and I feel like everybody who participated added to anyone being interested.

Teyshi (04:44)
Yeah, that sounds brilliant actually. I think you've sort of told us there, inadvertently, the sort of formula that you've had, which was, you know, bit of everything and it's appealed to, it's got a broad appeal. So well done you. But of course, third time round, wow, Nes, but here you are. And I mean, what are some of the biggest, in your sort of eyes, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about oppression and how do you challenge those narratives on your podcast?

Nes (05:15)
I think one of the biggest misconceptions about oppression is that people don't actually understand what oppression is. Those people who deny oppression, I think it is a result of people not being able to understand what others go through and not being able to empathize and sympathize with others. And I think this is one of the biggest problems. The denial of occupation is simply that people don't want to see what's going on.

And I understand that because if somebody is, let's say, brainwashed all their lives and they believe a certain narrative, it's very hard having to admit that all your life you've been lied to and everything you ever learned is wrong. I totally get that concept. But I just feel like oppression has been there since, you know, before we were even born, you and I, for example.

It's just that people have a very hard time grasping that concept of oppression because they haven't been through it.

Teyshi (06:12)
Right. And some people's idea of oppression is not having, their favorite coffee in the morning. know, like exactly. It's like it can be subjective for some people, but actually what we're saying is that, you know, and rightly so you've had this experience with these sort of podcasts, you've had to come to grips with the structure, you know, and I'm like you, I'm not, you know, I'm a bit of a free spirit. I don't like to be

Nes (06:18)
First word problems,

Teyshi (06:41)
boxed in or told what to do. And I love to run by inspiration as well. But there's some really great lessons there where you've had to just kind of get with the program and you've become an expert. think if you've got 80,000 followers, you'd definitely become an expert. And I think that's also helped you to give this really good description of what oppression is and how your podcast,

challenges those narratives of the podcast. So you will have had some tricky, you know, subjects coming up. Can you share a moment where your podcast directly impacted or amplified the voice of an oppressed community?

Nes (07:22)
Where do I begin? I had people from the black community on the podcast. had, coming from a background of like North African Moroccan background being a Muslim is I say to myself, I'm like, what the are these people? Then we had people from the Palestinian movement with a bunch of Palestinians on there. had

Lebanese people on there, Jordanian people on there, and they're not directly oppressed, but we're still people who get to feel the oppression that is happening around us, you know, to our people. And of course, we had you on there as well. So you were speaking about the oppression of Kashmir. And this is something, this is a topic that's hardly ever spoken about. I have to say, every time I, every time I speak to people about Kashmir or I hear someone speak,

Teyshi (08:01)
Yep.

Nes (08:15)
on Kashmir, it makes me very happy because it just shows, okay, somebody cares because if there is a cause that is barely spoken about and somebody mentions it, I know this person did you.

Teyshi (08:26)
exactly. And I think for my part, taking part in the podcast and subsequently posted it to socials, it was nice to see people engaging with that. think through our efforts here, but also with your collaboration and some of the other social media lives that we do, people are actually becoming more aware. And it's not necessarily my opinion about measuring, we making...

leaps and bounds of mountains and lakes. At the end of the day, we're introducing ideas to people that possibly was outside of their remit in terms of they never would have encountered it before. I know that I've had a lot of people through the podcast that we did, and it was posted on Instagram, some clips, and through the work that we've done here on this podcast. I've had people reaching out through TikTok and other things and asking questions. "So what does that mean?'

"Oh can you tell me a little bit?" And I thought it was really great actually. But yeah, I mean, I can personally vouch for the fact that we definitely in that podcast, it was you, me and Maria had some impacts. So can only imagine what your other podcasts did. I mean, do you have a way of measuring these things? you, I mean, you can't measure it as such. I don't mean the impact on people's lives

on how people are opressed, but certainly the traction and the impressions it makes. What do you look for as good indicators? Do you look for feedback? How do you assess it?

Nes (09:56)
little bit of a different view on this because I feel especially with podcasts depending on how you conceptualize the podcast this is a timeless thing. Like for me what's more important than having people listening now I really always picture in 20 years if people happen to come across the podcast and listen this is how people were thinking back then this is what people were going through this is like what what they talked about this is what they're

characters where I don't know if you know what I mean when I say like sometimes when we watch TV shows from the 90s, they speak completely different from how the TV shows are now. It's a completely different type of conversation when you think about let's say Fresh Prince of Bel-Air or anything. It's nothing like the conversations on TV now, you know? some of the slangs are similar and stuff, okay.

but generally it's not the same way of speaking. And I find this very important to leave an imprint where people in the future can find us and actually understand what the time, like I would love to hear a podcast from the 30s or 40s or 20s.

Teyshi (11:07)
Yeah, wow, what a concept. I suppose their version of podcasts were like radio shows or their...

Nes (11:13)
Yeah, but wouldn't it be amazing?

like not a typical radio like controlled by mainstream media like people like us, you know?

Teyshi (11:21)
Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah, that is the concoction of them living in their own decade or era. And if they were allowed or rather had the ability that we have in having these sort of pop up conversations, who knows what we'd learn, right? Who knows how that would change fate itself? Who knows? It could have made a massive change.

Nes (11:44)
Exactly, and that's what I mean. Like to me, it's something timeless. I don't, don't like, of course, feedback is important. Of course, it's important to see how many people do that average. But to me, it's personally secondary because it can be like, can reach if we reach one person, then we did the job. And if we reach today, 10 people, who knows in a year later, it might be like 10,000 people. never know.

And this is the thing, you know, like we shouldn't be caught up on numbers. This shouldn't be our main thought or our main priority. It's just important to deliver honest and genuine content. And honestly, I feel like the pressure is different when you care too much about numbers.

Teyshi (12:30)
Yeah, no, no, I think you've got a point there. And I think that's a really good point because you're concentrating on the conversation and it sits with its own merit then. But obviously with social media and all kind of these online platforms, people do generally look at the impressions, et cetera, and the engagement. But I think for the conversations maybe we're having, yes, we're trying to reach people, but it's quality, it's not quantity.

And it's there for posterity as well, right? So, if we look at a day, a week, a month, a year, well, in some ways it's kind of irrelevant because if it's there for posterity, then it's there to be accessed beyond those limits. But in that case, when, you your accounts got taken down, had you been able to salvage any of the recordings or, what happened to that?

Nes (13:24)
So I haven't kept all the recordings because it's way too many. I'm going to be honest, I know a lot of people do that. I'm just not wired like that because I feel like, you know what, if everything is gone today, can wake up tomorrow and go start all over again. You know, I don't mind having starting from the bottom and growing my way up. It never really bothered me. It's just what people do. And this is what we call resilience.

Teyshi (13:48)
this time.

Nes (13:51)
You know, and this is what we call we're really really into it. We really really want to do this and to me, you know, like mind over matter it's more important to have a platform because honestly, I always think this this you know when they say if your kids ever ask you or your grandkids What have you done about it? It's something to show for

Teyshi (13:52)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Teyshi (14:12)
So that was great actually, Nes. I think you're right. I think you've got a pretty unique way of looking at things. And I really love the fact that it's the subject matter and the soul of what you're talking about that matters rather than the commerce of it all. And I really, really like that actually. I think we need more of that, let's be honest. It's more kind of, sincere. But, you know, I was wondering what you think the role of the media

Nes (14:16)
Thank

Thank you.

Teyshi (14:40)
and storytelling play in dismantling systemic oppression? And how do you approach that responsibility as a podcast host? So might be some overlap here, but please feel free to tell us what you think.

Nes (14:54)
So I think we reached at that point in life that I love, the most when it comes to media, dismantling the old that is completely corrupt. And I do believe in citizen journalism because it seems, the people are waking up slowly and understanding that mainstream media.

and I'm not even talking about October 2023, I'm talking even prior to this, right? Since the media, since people are seeing that the media is not as honest as they think, I feel that citizen journalism has become very, very important and plays a crucial role in the storytelling today. And this is where we, as in podcasts come in or independent media come in because

We want to be different. We want to tell the true and real stories, no matter what they are, you know, if it's advocacy, if it's anything, if it's just about the person. And I can, I just say like, for us, I get it, as I said earlier, of course, it's about numbers. It's of course, it's about feedback, of course, people want to gauge what do people like, what don't people like, which direction am I going? I understand all of that.

But what's also important is to be able to sell a story for what it is and not to twist it and turn it and change it and make it more dramatic and all of these things. That's why I feel like social media become such an important tool voiceless to just show things. We are seeing things on our screen that we've never thought about seeing.

on a daily.

Teyshi (16:39)
Certainly social media has played a massive part, at least, I don't know, the last five to ten years, in really being like an expose on some hidden truths. We've seen that with a lot of, whether it's people on their smartphone posting a clip and it going viral and then, then it acts.

a chain reaction of change. But I mean, in itself though, the idea of dismantling oppression, systemic oppression, we know that there is an amount we can do for sure, but ultimately there's this stranglehold from the powers that be. For those that disproportionately hold that amount of power to basically get whatever they want,

whoever they are, by the way, I don't know who they are, but we all know that they're very powerful people in the world, whether it's they lobby, whether they actually bribe, whether they threaten, whether they influence, right? I mean, how much towards dismantling systemic oppression, how meaningfully can it, you know, can it be done? Like, are we wasting our time, in other words?

Nes (17:57)
No, because as I said also earlier, if we reach one person, if we can make one person, you know, look behind the curtain, if we can, you know, make one person think differently, or, you know, you know, inspire to look at things differently, or to research thing, I think that we're we've done a great job.

And this is why it's very important to understand and take our job very serious. Unfortunately, it comes to these kind of things, especially when it comes to advocacy, there is a lot of ego that plays into it. And this is where things go wrong. this is why it's very important to always remind yourself why you're here and why you're doing this and what the goal is. And I feel like the goal gets lost.

for a lot of people because of ego and because they might know how to speak, they might know how to attract people or how to demand attention and so they get like a lot of praise and whatnot from people and so sometimes the goal gets lost and I think that's very sad and I think we really need to be en point with that.

to make sure that we're fighting for the right reasons and we're here for the right reasons and we're doing what we're doing, not because of success or fame. Maybe we can say success, but not fame. And this is what's very important.

Teyshi (19:29)
Absolutely, committed to the cause and having purely, as much as possible, altruistic intentions. we know that there are some, I don't know, shadowy figures that are able to call the shots. Are they too powerful though? That's also the question.

Nes (19:49)
So believe the only powerful is God. And I believe that, you know, sometimes from personal events, you go one way and then it takes a crazy turn that you didn't expect. That's how I always picture the future. we have people in powerful positions, let's put it that way. And these people in those powerful positions are really trying. So it is a fight.

I think we need to be very clear on this. This is a fight. But only too dumb that they put freedom of speech and journalism in our fundamental rights, which they are clearly trying to change now. And this is a very serious fight that we're having. And I think, don't think fighting for freedom or freedom of expression is a waste of time, no matter how powerful these people seem.

or how powerful these positions that these people are in.

Teyshi (20:43)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that it is the struggle that is important and we must never stop doing that as much as we can, inshallah, till our last breath. But we did talk about the fact that you've done some podcasts with different people, whether it's looking at Palestine, we had our podcast together talking about Kashmir.

You know, from doing those style of podcasts, the less lighter stuff, is there anything you can tell us from your experience? What kind of key takeaways, anything similar? What really strikes home for you with doing those types of podcasts?

Nes (21:31)
Okay, so when it comes to whether it's the black community, the Palestinian movement or the Shmiri movement or any type of movement that I have had the honor to collaborate with, I feel like oppression is the same. And what stood out to me and also with the Native Americans, that was also something that really hit home.

because I didn't know about their struggle and about their plight that much. And to see how this is all done systematically, there is a reason why they say it's systemic, because they are things that they are doing to everybody, whether they're doing it to the Palestinians, to the natives, to the black people, to the Kashmiris, it's all the same things. For example, like contaminating water, for example, like attacking agriculture

everything that would make the communities prosper is under attack.

didn't even talk about the killing of people. So there is a system in place. They know what works and what doesn't work. When it comes to torture, there are systems in place as well. So, you know, these are the things that hit home for me. And I just, I just, I'm somebody who is interested in people. I'm very inquisitive, not because I'm so nosey, but I just want to understand people. I just want to know what makes you you. What are you about? What is your story? What is your struggle?

You know, this has nothing to do with, might forget tomorrow because it's a million and one stories that you hear, but it's just like, want to know who you are. I'm not one of those people who are happy with being like, you know, surface level and superficial. I really want to know who you are and I want you to share it with people because sometimes certain things just stick to us and we don't get them, but years later, they still stuck in our head and we understand them.

Teyshi (23:28)
Couldn't agree more really. And I think one of the things that I always sort of think about now and again is it can be, it can be very sort of dark and heavy with when we're listening to, the latest atrocities and the relentlessness of it all, right? How do you sort of keep yourself going and keep others going around you to keep up the morale? Because

Nes (23:53)
Thank

Teyshi (23:55)
Yes, they say you need to look after your own mental health first. And sometimes it can get a bit, not the podcasting bit necessarily, but living through and watching this unfolding, it can get pretty dark, right? So how do you really keep yourself going and others around you to keep going, keep up the strength and the fight?

Nes (24:17)
I think it is very dark. It just doesn't get very dark. is very dark and the scary part of this is sometimes thinking how more darker can it and will it get? And to be honest, I don't know. I feel like somebody who unfortunately experienced a few things in life that were very difficult to deal with and I'm a very

in that sense, spiteful person. I'm like, if you try to keep me down, I will definitely do everything to, you know, to be up. So as much as all these atrocities and seeing this, hearing this, talking to people, even dealing with people on the daily, trying to help them, as much as it hurts me and as much as I cry and as much as I'm frustrated and angry.

I feel these people deserve this input. They deserve this. if I can make the tiniest difference in somebody's life, I would feel bad if I didn't do it. So you can call it in a way, maybe it's selfish, because it's kind of like pleasing my kind of like, in a self in a way, like, yeah, yeah, I'm so great. It's not necessarily that, but in a way is that because

Teyshi (25:29)
Yeah.

Nes (25:34)
At the end of the day, it comes to these kind of things, have to admit it does make us feel a certain way that we feel needed and we feel useful. So yes, I think that's what it is. The fact that I know that if I help this person with just the tiniest thing, I contribute it. And I don't even feel like what I'm doing is much, you know, so.

Teyshi (25:55)
Yeah,

No, I think you do a tremendous amount along with a lot of people that you work with that are on the socials talking about it and all of the lives you do do a lot. And I know that your output is huge actually when we look at what you do in terms of the, for example, TikTok lives. And you've said some really good things there about why we do it. Yeah, it's a kind of like.

fight the good fight and it's almost like it's your duty like how can you sit there you wouldn't be able to sleep at night won't be able to relax or get a moment's peace so you're driven right to speak out to do things whatever is

Nes (26:39)
do you if I add something because this is something that we barely speak about and I feel like this is a good opportunity to do so. So generally, you know, not to make it about me or anything, but I'm just going to use me as an example. I'm somebody who has been suffering from survival guilt. And I think a lot of us who come from, colonized backgrounds, oppressed background, we also

Teyshi (26:42)
Please do.

Yeah,

Nes (27:04)
suffer from survival guilt when it comes to these atrocities that are being constantly committed and that may be, you know, in Palestine and Kashmir and the Congo, Sudan, Haiti, wherever, wherever it may be, right? This is also something that I feel that we're coping with when we are trying to make that little bit of a change, that tiny difference, you know, and I feel like something like survival guilt is barely

talked about and barely addressed when it's actually a very very very serious thing for many many many of us.

Teyshi (27:41)
Yeah, 100%. I know that there's times where I am speaking about certain things, but of course, when I'm talking about Kashmir, that's very personal to me because I know that I, I'm fortunate. Well, unfortunate and fortunate, I would have preferred to have stayed in Kashmir, but my family had circumstances that took them abroad. And, but at the same time, I realized that I'm fortunate because

There but for the grace of God go I like I don't have to live through the oppression day in day out like all the oppressed people do something that I never would have thought when I was missing Kashmir that I would even be thinking of in a million years right and there is a guilt because you see them having that weight like a like a large rock on their neck or on their back just weighing them down it's like this constant dark cloud knowing

that they're in this sort of system and they're downtrodden, and that there are these sort of limits on their freedoms. And of course, the blatant horror stories, the hundreds and thousands of people that were killed during, uprisings. And there's all that going on. And here I am in the West, completely privileged and probably being annoying. And they probably think,

you know, who are these people? Like they wouldn't know suffering or oppression if it smacked them in the face, right? I understand my privilege and I understand that, it is really for Indigenous people ultimately to call the shots. the point about them being oppressed and occupied is that they actually can't do it.

So you have to step in, but it's with the understanding that you speak out, but you will never truly be in their shoes. And there is that. I absolutely agree with you. There is that guilt there because you feel like you've got off scot-free. You do feel a bit like that. So I do agree with you, Nes. Thank you for that. So, you know, we're trying to do something here where we are hopefully...

showing our activism, enacting some kind of meaningful change, making a difference, that trickle by trickle, butterfly wing, by butterfly wing flap, something happens. who knows, right? All things are possible. So with that in mind, like, how do you think that listeners can move beyond just awareness?

and take meaningful action to support the cause and the causes that you discuss on your shows. And indeed, I will have to think about how we do that. But yeah, how do you think that listeners can take it to the next level?

Nes (30:26)
So first of all, share the podcast with your friends, your family members, and your colleagues and whoever. But beyond that, don't even believe what people say on the internet. Go and do your own research. And people, I don't know, sometimes I feel like people feel overwhelmed when you tell them go and do some research. You can start small, watch a documentary, which you really only have to sit there.

Teyshi (30:29)
Yeah

Nes (30:52)
And just listen and watch it and try to comprehend and grasp the idea of oppression of atrocities, whatever that is, know, history, whatever that is that they're trying to teach you and educate you on in this documentary. You know, this is easiest thing you can read. can, look out, look what's going on in the world. And critical thinking is very, very important. You know, it feels like we're going through

something that was already happening a hundred years ago in a very very similar way. since we kind of like can say history in a way repeats itself, learn from it, don't be asleep, don't get too distracted by Hollywood, by entertainment, by your own issues. This affects everyone in the long run and just because it didn't affect you yet, it doesn't mean that it's not coming.

So caring is, I think, something that people need to do. Don't just like lock this podcast off and yeah, okay, listen to it. That's sad. Okay, moving on. What am I gonna have for dinner? Where is my next vacation destination? People need to be constantly caring and look for things and consume content.

ask questions. These kind of things.

Teyshi (32:14)
I couldn't have said it better myself. is this feeling of helplessness, but, you know, while that exists, we're not, we're very powerful because it's like that saying goes, "I'm just one person, what can I do", said eight billion people, right? You know? So, and that's where, like, sand grain by sand grain, as I've always said, soon will be the Sahara. And it has to be that way. It has to be that way. And if we get

Nes (32:29)
Thank

Teyshi (32:41)
If we get complacent, then of course our listeners and other people, well, because they'll say "Look, they don't care." So obviously that's where we are now.

Nes (32:48)
It just gets me when people say, what am I gonna do? We're too small. What are we gonna do? But this is to me such a wrong and weird mindset to have because so you know how to shout and scream if you didn't get your coffee on time or if somebody broke your favorite shoe or whatever or I don't know what. Okay, you know how to scream and shout and make a fuss about it. You know how to have an argument when...

your husband or your wife did something wrong or your parents or your kids but you don't know how to fight for a better world. That's wild.

Teyshi (33:21)
Absolutely agreed, Nes. Even my kitten, Bear, agrees with you. He jumped on my lap. He was purring all through what you said. He loves what you said. He agrees with you and I agree with him. He's got good taste, by the way. But I want to thank you so much for Certified by Bear. Absolutely. But yeah, I wanted to thank you for joining me today. You know, the first episode of season two. Really honoured to have you as somebody that

Nes (33:35)
Okay, I'm certified I guess then.

Teyshi (33:50)
You know, is a great person in advocacy, but also very experienced in doing podcasts and having such a great track record. You know, it's actually been brilliant. Nes, I want to thank you for that.

Nes (34:01)
I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity. really do appreciate it and I feel honored and especially, you know, sharing this platform with someone like you, who is very vocal and not lazy when it comes to standing for the right, you know, on the right side of history, I should say.

Teyshi (34:19)
It is always our duty. But listen, where can people find your podcast? So where can people find you? where are we going if we want to listen to your culturally clueless podcast?

Nes (34:29)
So culturally clued this is on YouTube, but it's also on all streaming platforms whether Spotify, Apple, Amazon, all the other podcast apps, Podbean, Podadic, and whatever you want to call those. Like literally all the streaming platforms you can find it.

Teyshi (34:44)
So they can literally type in culturally clueless and they're there basically, Brilliant, fabulous. Well, with that, we're gonna bring it to a close. Welcome back listeners. This is again, the uptake of season two. So look out for some more twists and turns, what we got coming next. We are looking to do maybe a series on hidden histories because there's a whole bunch of things,

Nes (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Teyshi (35:09)
whichever subject we happen to be looking at, whichever subjugated people we happen to be looking at, there is a kind of hidden histories element. And I think that what would make a good podcast is to discuss some of these. Why is this important? Well, it's important because usually the oppressor, the colonizer is the one that writes history and indoctrinates the future generations. But yeah, do join us for that. And of course, as always, hit us up on our website, Kashmir Exists.

you can interact, you can leave comments, you can ask questions, please do reach out and we'll see you next time. And that's all for now. Goodbye.