Point  (00:19)
Hello everyone, this is Point. Welcome everyone to another episode of Kashmir Exists. And today we have our lovely host with us, Teyshi. How are you doing, Teyshi?

Teyshi (00:30)
Yeah, too bad. It's a Sunday evening. So yeah, thank you for jumping into this podcast with me at last minute notice. really appreciate it.

Point  (00:39)
we tend to do this sometimes. Sometimes we have these podcasts and we do it sometimes fast and sometimes we do it with time. And today we have a very special podcast episode. It is about Azad Kashmir. And of course, it's something that we didn't really intend to do or I never thought that we would do this.

But this is going to be interesting and it be fun. What do you think about this station?

Teyshi (01:06)
Yeah, one of the reasons I want to do it is because this is something that goes to the subject of this idea of Kashmir and it means different things to different people. So of course we know there's a greater Kashmir, which is sometimes called Kashmir, but then there's also Kashmir Valley, which is called Kashmir. Then there's also Azad Kashmir, which is called Kashmir. Then there's Gilgit and Baltistan, which is called Kashmir. They're all called Kashmir, but they're all different things.

So there will be people listening to this podcast who their idea of Kashmir may not be what we're talking about. And so some people could be like, well, Kashmir is fine, isn't it? Kashmir is in Pakistan and everything's fine. There's nothing going on there. So I think in in the, with respect to disabusing people of the idea that Kashmir is fine, specifically Kashmir Valley is fine and the people there are fine and nothing bad is happening. Yeah. I think it is quite important for people to have that.

clear distinction that when we talk about Kashmir, what are we talking about versus what may other people be talking about? yes, just because there are some areas called Kashmir that are fine, it doesn't mean that there isn't an occupation and an illegal, you know, occupation at that and war crimes going on a place called Kashmir that they may not have.

thought of as Kashmir or even known about.

Point  (02:37)
Yeah, definitely. when I started off learning more about Kashmir, I had no clue that how exactly I could sort of have the subjective experience of defining Kashmir. that's sort of like how... Now, how I interpret how Kashmir really is and understanding some of it...

understanding the knowledge behind it and the differences to some levels. I can understand what exactly to call Kashmir and which part would be. Yeah, would you like us to start?

Teyshi (03:09)
Yeah, so what,

yeah, so you kindly agreed to pose five questions. And I, and I'm going to answer them. Being an ethnic Kashmiri or a Kashmiri Valley, you know, indigenous person, I will be speaking about the other side. We will hopefully in the future get a brother or sister from the other side. But today it's just you and I. And of course you do have Pakistani heritage, but

Point  (03:15)
Yeah.

Teyshi (03:33)
Nevertheless, it's not from the Azad side, but we are together going to learn a bit more about it. So, yeah, if you want to start with the first question, that would be absolutely great.

Point  (03:42)
Alright what is the line of control, LOC?

Teyshi (03:47)
Yeah, LOC, the line of control. Now it's actually the border between India and Pakistan. And that's in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir. So it's where Indian occupied Kashmir ends and Pakistan occupied Kashmir starts. Okay. Now it was established after the 1949 ceasefire following the first Indo-Pakistani war and was later formalized in the 1972 similar agreement.

The line of control is heavily militarized and frequently witnesses skirmishes between the two countries. So you would expect that because obviously India and Pakistan have a very long and well known enmity and dispute over territory. And you know, the skirmishes that they're talking about is exchange of fire across the border. I would say that's a weekly thing and people

It's known that people who live around the line of control on both sides, it's known to be quite dangerous. And there have been fatalities. And in fact, in 2019, when the article 370 and 35A, when those articles were abrogated, it followed not only for the people in Kashmir Valley, but it followed months of face-off between India and Pakistan, and actually between India and China as well. was exchanges of fire on that side.

But it did see that India sent some missiles over the line of control. They fired it over and there were a lot of casualties and indeed fatalities because of that. So the line of control is important because there's continually some violence that goes on because it is disputed essentially by both sides. So that's when we talk about the line of control, that's what we talk about.

Now just to give you my quick perspective, being from Kashmir Valley and specifically being around Srinagar or its surrounding areas, we're not really going to experience what happens at the Line of Control. So that's something that I feel I need to say because a lot of people ask me about it and I have to be honest and say, well, I don't really know because I'm not from around there. So the majority of Kashmiris from the Valley don't really...

you know, have anything to do with the line of control. It will be the people on that sort of border that leave either side that probably there's some crossover in their background. You know, that they will experience that and this will be a real living, breathing sort of thing for them, for the predominantly, you know, Kashmiri Valley sort of people. This isn't something that we actually know anything about. What we go through is something totally different because of course,

It's that blanket occupation that we go through, but specifically the line of control is very, very dangerous and there are a lot of, you know, gunfire and other such, you know, war-like things that go on. So that's it, you know, quickly to tell you what the line of control is. It's something that I've had to learn about. Like I say, I didn't know huge amounts about it, but I do hope that helps to give a bit more detail.

Point  (06:53)
Yeah, definitely. I think it's quite significant when it comes to the historical fact of it. I don't think many people hear about it apart from those people who are impacted by this line of control.

Teyshi (07:04)
Yeah.

Point  (07:06)
Second question, what is Azad, Jamu and Kashmir, aka J?

Teyshi (07:11)
Yeah, so Azad Jammu Kashmir, AJK, commonly referred to as Azad Kashmir is a self-governing administrative region under Pakistan's control. It has its own government, but Pakistan oversees its defense, foreign policy and financial matters. The region borders Gilgit-Baltistan to the north and the Indian administered Jammu and Kashmir to the east. Okay, so...

This is obviously talking about Azad Kashmir here and the fact that it does have its sort of kind of semi-autonomous status actually the way it's described here. I think that if we're being honest, I mean, yes, it's got its own self-governing administrative region, its own government, et cetera, but let's be clear, these are performative things. There's nothing meaningful they can change because ultimately,

that there are people in that collective that wish to be independent. And if we talk to the aspects of where Pakistan ultimately has that control over the things that we mentioned like defense, foreign policy, and the financial stuff, it is kind of like, it's symbolic, the fact that it's self-governing. It's a symbolic thing really, because like I mentioned, all the important stuff is controlled by Pakistan.

But I think it gives them a sense of, you know, they're recognized as being in their minds, that they feel set apart from the general Pakistani kind of identity. But I would say maybe it's similar to how, you know, Kashmir Valley was before Article 370 was abrogated. Perhaps it's similar to that. But ultimately, they are ruled by Pakistan and what Pakistan says goes. So I think that's how we have to look at it.

Point  (09:02)
Yeah, definitely. mean, in this case, it is, of course, something we have to go by the objectives of what is documented by Pakistan. And that makes completely sense. But what is Gilgit, what is Gilgit, Baltistan, and how is it different from Azad Kashmir?

Teyshi (09:18)
Yeah,

this is an interesting one because even until, you know, quite recently, I didn't know this about myself. I think one of the things you'll find out about South Asia is because it is so huge, there's a lot of us from that region who still learn stuff as we're getting older. It's not like because we're from South Asia, we know absolutely everything about each other. I think what we have to understand that whether you're talking about India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and, you know, anything else that encapsulates South Asia.

we have these regions and each region has its own identity, it can have its own language, religion, know, culture, everything. And so there's a lot even as South Asians that we're learning. to that point, yeah, I didn't really realize until recently that Gilgit-Baltistan was not Azad Kashmir. I actually thought it was just all one big Azad Kashmir, but it isn't. So let's have a look at what it is now.

know, Gilgit-Baltistan is a region in northern Pakistan that borders China, Afghanistan and India. And unlike Azad Kashmir, which is a semi-autonomous government, Gilgit-Baltistan was administered as a separate entity and was integrated into Pakistan's federal structure in 2020 with increased provincial-like powers. However, it is not formally recognized as a province of Pakistan.

So think what we can take away from that is it has some recognition again, it's symbolically, even less than Azad Kashmir, it has less recognition than that. So yeah, that's interesting.

Point  (10:53)
Yeah, definitely. that is one of the, I mean, that is a very significant location. I believe we'll probably talk more about this soon. So yeah, fourth question. Yeah, why is the LOC a conflict zone?

Teyshi (11:16)
So yeah, we did just talk about the the LOC before, the Line of Control now, and we mentioned that there's a lot of exchange of fire and casualties, fatalities. And yes, just to touch back on that, it's because both India and Pakistan claim the entire Jammu and Kashmir region. So they do, they're both in both their minds, they own those regions, right? And there will always be pushes.

like an ebb of flow about that. But frequent cross border firing, ceasefire violations and militant activities have made it a highly volatile area. The line of control also serves as a barrier, dividing families and communities on both sides. I think that's really important because I've seen a lot of videos, whether you wanna look it up on any social media platform, you could be looking at, I don't know.

YouTube, you could be going on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. You will quite regularly, if you follow Kashmiri pages and social media sort of influences, you will at some point come across a video someone has taken. It usually happens to be from the Azad Kashmir side, to be honest, where you will see them waving across this kind of, I think it's a river.

or a stream, but there's a lot of water and because that's kind of where the line of control is. And you will see them waving across this kind of stream stroke river and you'll see people waving back at them. And I think it's interesting to notice that this line of control did actually cut across communities. And there were people that were part of whole families that have been separated by this, which is actually wild.

to think of that. If you can imagine your family, whether it's your immediate family or your kind of extended family, and then all of a sudden someone draws a line through the middle of you, and now one of you is in one country, another of you is in another country, and you can't legally just kind of, you know, cross that sort of divide without, you know, obviously it's monitored, et cetera. But you can wave to each other, you can see each other, you could probably even shout hello or salam.

cross the way to each other. And I think it's mad that does that. But I think the other important bit for me there is because, so let's start with this. Kashmir Valley, know, with the people there, we have a very definitive history and culture. So there are people that live on the periphery of the valley and there may be some crossover with other people. I know there is, but specifically I couldn't say that

For example, there were ethnic Kashmiris or people from Kashmir Valley that had been affected by the Line of Control. I kind of touched on it before that we're not really anywhere near it. Yes, you are going to have some scattered more kind of far away from the centre of Kashmir Valley. But generally speaking, what you'll find with those Kashmiris is that they probably may have some ancestors in the valley. They may not have any at all.

but there's definitely influences from other ethnic groups as well. So the fact that it cuts families, which I know is a fact that the line of control does separate families. What I can say with confidence, it doesn't separate any Kashmiri Valley families. Again, that's just to make that point that, you know, a lot of people do actually ask me about the line of control. And I think a lot of people think...

that the line of control affects Kashmir Valley. I have to just reiterate that point, it really doesn't. What I would say is the line of control really affects more Pakistani people or Pakistani occupied people. really, that's who it's affecting. And when you speak to anyone who is from the Pakistani side, they will know a lot about it. They will have family there. I've spoken to many who tell me that, you know, that...

that they have family that have suffered because of it. So I think again, that's quite the reason the line of control is interesting here is because it is more of a Pakistan occupied Kashmir relevance than an Indian occupied Kashmir. When it is cutting families in half, that really isn't affecting people of the valley. And of course, it's incredibly, it must be incredibly devastating.

for the people across the border. But certainly that's just to sort of elaborate more on the line of control and to help people understand and distinguish between, know, Kashmir Valley and the other parts that are called Kashmir that reside in the Pakistan side.

Point  (15:51)
Yeah, mean, you know, it always hurts to actually listen to these stories with when people talk about like displacement, forceful displacement, having these partition plans being established and then eventually they would have to leave their ex-settled families, families, and not being able to communicate with them, not being able to visit them or to even have your full

Teyshi (16:15)
Yeah.

Point  (16:17)
heritage to some levels, not knowing it, your roots, history, not knowing grandparents and all that. It is something that is devastating, heartbreaking. But now this is actually something that is very interesting. It is in connection to question three. And this is a question I was looking very forward to. What is the significance of Gilgit in Baltistan

Teyshi (16:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Point  (16:43)
in regional geopolitics.

Teyshi (16:46)
Well, yeah, again, I'm interested about this too, because like I say, I have to confess to knowing very little about Gilgit-Baltistan. I do know of people that are from that region. And again, they seem to have a very specific culture and background to their region. know, Gilgit-Baltistan holds a strategic importance due to its location at the crossroads of Pakistan, China and Central Asia.

It is home to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, is called CPEC, that's C-P-E-C, a key part of China's belt and road initiative called BRI. The region's geopolitical importance has led to ongoing debates about its constitutional status and its role in Pakistan-India relations.

So mean, for me, what this basically means is because it is bordering, you know, kind of Pakistan, China, Central Asia, these are very, you know, important locations. And of course, specifically China, you know, there again, it's about its influence in what's going on there, how it kind of, you know, it's kind of ties and is links with those regions. What do you think about it and what's been going through your mind when you've been looking at that?

Point  (18:09)
I mean, when I think of Gilgit and Baltistan, I mean, that is a place that is very significant. Also when it comes to the European Middle Eastern economic corridor, and of course, in this case, the Chinese one, and the connection of it with Pakistan, it is very significant. The only issue here is that if you think about the infrastructure and how that is established there,

Teyshi (18:17)
Thank you.

Thank

Thank

Point  (18:33)
industrial infrastructure and all that and the plans of it, it has the impact of displacing more people, causing more issues for the locals there. And that is something that I am against. I'm against industrial plants that would eliminate and cause more havoc for people who are living there.

Teyshi (18:45)
you

Point  (18:55)
And in this case, of course, it is arguable. I mean, it's very difficult to say who is indigenous and who is not. But in this case, even if you are someone living there for many, years, you still have a good

history there. And that history should not be breached. It shouldn't be taken away from you. And so that is what I think about this. But it is a very significant and a very beautiful location. It is a place of... Yeah, it's a...

Teyshi (19:12)
Yeah. Yes.

Point  (19:23)
And these were one of my actually favorite questions out of this. Yeah.

Teyshi (19:29)
Yeah, so basically I think it's like you said, because if it's very pertinent geopolitical location, I think the fact that if you consider China and Pakistan are allies, you know, that's also interesting. I don't know what's how Central Asia is really, I would assume it's a little bit more neutral. It's going to little bit side a bit more with maybe Pakistan and China if if push came to shove, but

I can't be completely sure on that. think the alliance between China and Pakistan must always keep India on its toes a little bit. you know, considering that India have this greater India idea, you the greater India map idea, I'm sure that they're, you know, if they're in the most extreme situation, if their ambitions were realized, they would want to seize that. And they would even want to...

have an incursion on the China side and maybe even the Central Asia side, what do you think about that?

Point  (20:25)
Yeah, I mean, if I think about this, I think about like the roots of exactly why this place was important long before, I mean, before post-47, basically pre, in this case, when it was a princely state. And it was something that was difficult for even the Brits to give away.

But in this case, understanding how important it is for even China and how exactly the Chinese-Pakistan economic corridor works, think it's something that is... I think it will have eventually more interventions

Teyshi (21:12)
Yeah, no, I think you're totally right. think as well, a lot of the world, you know, you'd be surprised how much the world will be watching this region, certainly not on the conscious level that we're at, the general public, but these are very, you know, the whole border between India, Pakistan and China specifically, these are very, you know, to the world stage, they're very important because people understand that all three have nuclear capability. So there's a lot.

you know, of awareness of this, even though it might not be in the awareness of the average person, right? This sort of location of the intersection, it's very pivotal and it does have far-reaching consequences. But listen, we've dived into five questions there and five answers. So along with me, I hope yourself, Point, and the audience have learned a little bit more. If we do have people that are from...

the Azad Kashmir side, Gilgit Baltistan that would like to reply and give their thoughts on this podcast. If you feel that there's more context or we could have covered something else, or indeed you'd even like to appear in the postcard, that would be amazing. But we're always open to feedback and any sort of replies you can get in touch with us through our Kashmir exists website. Please do check it out.

Please follow these podcasts, please save them, please like them and please do listen and share. But yeah, that's everything from today from us. So it's goodbye from me, Tayshii, and it's goodbye from Brother Point.

Point  (22:42)
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, just to add on that, we do have a contact form on our website, by the way.

Teyshi (22:49)
Amazing and yeah, definitely check it out guys. think for anybody, whether you're from the region or outside the region, I think for any sort of, know, geopolitical hawks out there, this is fascinating. think especially in the next decade as well, we can certainly expect to see more in terms of the sort of attention this gets in the media. But yes, again, I'm going to say goodbye again, but yeah, goodbye everyone and see you for the next episode. Bye bye.

Point  (23:17)
bye.