Point (00:19)
Hello everyone and welcome to Kashmir Exist Podcast. My name is Point and today we have our lovely co-host Teyshi with us. Hi Teyshi.

Teyshi (00:28)
Hello!

Point (00:30)
So this episode is actually quite interesting because this is an interview with a Kashmiri person from diaspora. In this case, that would be Teishi. And you can probably tell a bit about yourself Teishi. How is it being someone from diaspora, from Kashmir Valley?

Teyshi (00:49)
Yeah, well, in my case, I, you know, I was born in Srinagar. I went to school in Srinagar. I left there when I was about five and I moved to the UK. However, I had regular trips back to Srinagar and I even was in school there until I was a teenager back and forth, you know. So being in the diaspora, you know, for me broadly is sort of a kind of a fusion.

at times a clash of cultures. I'm also very well aware that people generally don't know much about my sort of background in terms of what it means to be Kashmiri, know, ethnic Kashmiri or Kashmiri from the valley or Kersher, including people that are South Asian. For me being in the diaspora,

I would say that, you know, particularly since the late eighties, it's kind of been bittersweet in as much as I have my freedoms and we, all of us that are in the diaspora, are able to, you know, have our freedoms and ability to speak and speak about Kashmir, but we're having to watch our people, our loved ones, go through the occupation. And certainly when we visit back, we get a taste of that as well.

Point (02:02)
Yeah, definitely. I it must be completely different to be from the diaspora and then to hear what is happening in Kashmir Valley and from families and friends. Of course, it is probably a bit different to have lived out abroad from Kashmir Valley for that long, but that, course, probably sort of feels bad coming in from...

Teyshi (02:21)
Yeah.

Point (02:25)
from Kashmir Valley and not being able to notice what exactly is happening to your people. In this case, of course, having this episode, we do want to bring up certain points about how it feels to be a person from Kashmir diaspora, how it is to be supported by South Asians, other people.

whether there is, I guess, silence is complicity in this case, that is also something we can talk about here. So a question here, Teishi. How is it being a Kashmiri in the diaspora when it comes to, for example, hearing everything in Kashmir happening, but used to living in UK? How is that?

Teyshi (02:57)
Okay.

Yeah, it is very strange. It's a feeling of being, you know, almost it's almost like an abstract concept in some ways, because it's not part of your every living day experience. And, you know, although my personal journey of moving to the UK, I for a long time, I felt wrenched away from

Not just my family but from the place that I grew up and that was the way I describe it I think you know even though that's how I felt I felt that people that grew up in the valley were really lucky Subsequently that I realized that actually I'm lucky that despite the you know the feelings of loss that I felt when I left because you know I was very young until those are your formative years, so that was a natural response. I realized that actually You know it's overshadowed

by the brutality that has taken place in that region since at least 1989, if not slightly before. And how it feels, I feel helpless. I feel like I'm sort of, it's like a dream when you're trying to shout or raise your voice or talk even, and you can't talk. know, when you have those dreams where...

you're struggling to make yourself heard. It's also a lot of guilt because, know, you, me alongside everyone else that's in the diaspora, we're kind of the lucky ones in the sense that we don't have to live under those brutal conditions. And, you know, there is an amount of guilt that comes with that as well, because we know that they're suffering every day. see

with the headlines and then the stories relayed back from family and friends, there is an amount of guilt. But it is a cognitive dissonance in as much as your automatic reaction is to do something to help, but then what can you do? And so there are all these barriers. There's also the complicity that you talked about of whether it's silence, whether it's just the world's sort of turning a blind eye.

and the normalizing of occupation. are, you know, this is how it feels. I almost feel like I'm trapped. I'm not trapped at all, but it almost feels like you're trying to communicate, but you're behind a glass. So you can see it all going on, right? But you're behind a glass screen and you're neither heard or can go past that screen to help. So it's frustrating, but nevertheless, we're still luckier than they are. that's where the...

the sadness and the guilt lies and then just the utter frustration that this is being allowed to happen.

Point (05:51)
Yeah, just to question something that you just mentioned. You mentioned you feel helpless. Is there anything you do, of course, apart from podcasting and such stuff, is there something you do to to feel less helpless? I know it's not a feeling that this goes away even if whatever you do always feels bad. But.

How do you deal with your helplessness?

Teyshi (06:16)
Yeah, you're right. Activism is a big part of it. And of course, even when we're talking about other atrocities around the world, we equally feel helpless. You know, the fact is we're human at the end of the day. So we do what we can. You know, we do have family over there. So without giving too much away, right, we do try and do what we can whenever we visit. Obviously, I don't want to put too much transparency on that part of it.

But clearly when Kashmiris in the diaspora go back home, you know, there are things that they know that their family members might need, et cetera. And they'll help in any way they can. My grandmother actually came to the UK when she was alive. you know, she, know, my mum sort of brought her here for her to have, you know, a little bit of a better time, et cetera. So she, I think she was here for...

can't remember now I feel like it was six months to a year but it was funny because she was really just as much as she was in the West and it's to be everyone's dream she actually just wanted to go back straight away because yeah she wasn't used to it. I would say the other thing I do is that I try and support Kashmiris that I know that are back there and that's usually through social media so I tend to

network quite a lot with Kashmiris on social media. I enjoy that. I love the fact that, you know, when they're talking in Kersher, obviously I can understand them and I reply in Kersher as much as I can. It's that sense of bonding. It's that sense of camaraderie and support to each other. I think it's also a way that we're showing them that we're here for them as well.

Point (07:55)
Yeah, I love that. mean, you're of course also in this project, Kashmiri Exist, and we do digital type of activism. And it's always good to have you around. another question though, how has your experience been with different, or I guess, other people in the Kashmiri diaspora?

Teyshi (08:18)
Yeah, it's in the diaspora itself. Yeah, think we really, got, yeah, I'm be honest, I think we buzz off the fact that, we found another Kersher. It's like, it's like spotting, it's probably like spotting a rare breed in the wild. you know, we like, so that there is an account, well, this is his old username. I won't give away his new username. I don't know whether he's trying to stand the radar at the moment, but there was a Kashmiri guy and...

he has still has actually a very active very thriving Instagram account there's a lot a lot of these Instagram crowds, Kershir Kaur, Stand with Kashmir but particularly Kershir Kaur and this particular gentleman he actually lives I don't know how long he's been living there in the same part of the UK that I grew up so that was amazing because you know

I was able to sort of connect with them and say, I recognize that place. I grew up there. But generally speaking to people in the diaspora, think what I would say about that is we all acknowledge that there is a responsibility on us to do something because it's kind of like we accept that we have this privilege and we need to use that privilege. I think how it's been speaking to people in the diaspora.

is it's been this instant understanding. Where there have been times where I've tried to reach out to people to come and participate, it's been met with natural hesitation, anticipation. And I think I would be the same. And thing is, we have to remember that that's because we know that people are very frightened of being trapped or caught out. For example, they could think that I'm actually working for the Indian government or I'm some sort of

you know, troll or person that's been put there to do entrapment, right, and pretend to be, I'm doing something for Kashmir, would you like to help next minute? Them and their family are in, you know, danger or whatever it is. So there have been occasions where I've reached out to people and they've unfriended me. Or sometimes, I don't know if they've actually just blocked me, but it's because they literally immediately are very like...

Point (10:15)
Yeah.

Teyshi (10:24)
That's their first reaction I noticed is being frightened, being cautious, being worried. And I of course totally understand that. But of course it's kind of a catch 22 because people need to speak out in order for this movement to really have the benefit we want it to do. But at the same time, they're too scared. And of course that's the effective.

tool that India has been able to wield that fear over them.

Point (10:53)
Yeah, no, definitely. mean, activism is is way more scarier than I first thought. mean, just thinking about the Operation Canary Mission that Israeli people have for Palestinians and pro-Palestinians, that alone, that sort of haunts me, like having information being put online and thinking about what they put up like for other people's kids and all that. It is dangerous.

Teyshi (11:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Point (11:20)
understand when Kashmiri people and people in diaspora for Kashmir are scared. But yeah, when it comes to the talk about Kashmir, in particular Kashmir Valley, a lot of it is very silenced, especially the atrocities happening in Kashmir and what exactly the Indian government does to Kashmir. Of course, one thing is of course

Teyshi (11:26)
Yeah.

Point (11:44)
They talk about people being quiet because they're scared. But the other part is, it is heavily silenced. It's very silenced. People are very quiet about that. What do you think the reason for that is? Is there any particular specific reason that you could think of?

Teyshi (12:03)
Yeah, so I think India's been able to effectively demonstrate to the Kashmiri people by its campaign of violence and effect terror then, whether it's the forced disappearances, which we know there have been 10,000 men disappeared, none of whom have returned. There have been the actual attacks on civilians, whether it's them being beaten up, whether it's them being shot.

where it's them being sprayed with pellet guns and having life-changing injuries such as blindness, etc. Then there was the gang rapes that have gone on. Of course, that's just ordinary everyday people. are activists which are going to then be branded as terrorists and they're going to have the laws being used on them to arrest them, which includes also just not just those activists, but will also include the press, we find.

quite vocal journalists finding themselves in a revolving door of arrest, release, arrest, release, and it goes on like that. These serve as a warning to the Kashmiris, sit quietly, know your place, behave, otherwise the same thing will happen to you. And so for the people in the valley, they are petrified, they've seen it with their eyes, whether it's their loved ones, neighbors, friends, they know of this and they know it's real because they've

witnessed it themselves. For the people in the diaspora, yes, there's this worry. We know that there's this drive that, for example, if you're seen to be anti-India and you're in the diaspora, that there's been, for example, people that have Indian passports, they get cancelled or revoked. I don't know what the exact terminology is, but they basically take their passport off and they confiscate it in terms that you're not able to use that passport.

If you happen to have another citizenship, can deny you entry, they can deny you a visa, and because you have to go through India to go, you know, through Delhi to go to Kashmir, if you're then denied a visa, you will never be able to go and visit Kashmir or see your relatives there. So these are big threats and people are genuinely scared, you know, the fear is palpable.

Point (14:13)
Yeah, I mean, I would, it's already very difficult to, it seems like it's very difficult to be Kashmiri itself and to not actually go and be able to meet your relatives and family, friends in Kashmir if in any case something wrong happens in your activism. I can definitely understand that. Do you feel that other

other South Asians support Kashmiri people that they stand against their government in this case for example Indian people stand against Indian government do you feel that that happens often and what do you what do think about that?

Teyshi (14:49)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I have some very overt thoughts on that. So I don't I think that there is a percent of people who are completely ignorant because obviously India hides it really well. Whatever it's doing there, there is this, you know, complete blackout and you're not allowed to nothing's allowed to be reported on what's going on. So there is a blackout in the first place, but there's also a willful ignorance that the people also don't really want to know. So because it makes people feel uncomfortable. They.

cannot exist in their ignorant bliss, right? So it's not in their interest to really learn. I think there are some people who know of it, particularly there will be people that are Pakistani or Azad Kashmiri that will know some stuff, but they won't really, but they'll only know from their side. There are some people who think that what's happening in Kashmir Valley is exactly like Azad Kashmir and vice versa, which is completely inaccurate. Not only are we

separate peoples in terms of heritage, we also have a different reality. For example, the things that happen around the Line of Control can certainly affect people on either side of the Line of Control, for pretty much for people in Cushmer Valley, that's not many of us, right? What we go through is that sort of daily kind of, and when I say we, I'm talking about the people, because obviously I'm not there all the time, what they go through, and I should be more correct in those terms.

is that they have the daily oppressive kind of control of India where they are lit. It's literally like India have their boots on their neck. Now this I don't think is recognized by many South Asians at all and definitely not by most Indians that I've come across. I almost feel like a lot of South Asians would say there's nothing happening in Kashmir. It's fine. yeah, India is not going to do anything.

There's a dismissive, there's an ignorance. There's also people that identify as Kashmiri that maybe they're from Azad Kashmir or Gilgit-Baltistan, that they only know their version of Kashmir from their side. So they really don't know or don't recognize or want to see the people of the valley. is this, and it's kind of a sort of strange situation where we're just not seen by.

quote unquote, our own people. I think that more Indians should, especially if they consider themselves Muslim or just human beings actually, if they certainly consider themselves activists, particularly if they're, for example, freedom activists, then it would, know, just think about it. It's an obvious thing. It would be odd that you are championing, let's say,

rights of people thousands of miles away from you, say Palestine which is entirely correct and everyone should be, but then there is something happening in your own backyard which you are completely oblivious to and are willfully ignorant and at those points where I have engaged with people it's met with a sort of disinterest. The plight of the Kashmiris doesn't interest them and so there is a kind of, it's an exciting scale between ignorance and disinterest.

Point (18:04)
Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. mean, from my case, me just being a pro-Kashmiri person in this case, not Kashmiri, someone who is just an activist, I do believe there is a willful ignorance and of course just being very lazy, not wanting to learn more, not wanting to into what exactly...

is necessary in order to go against their own government if something is wrong. In this case...

Teyshi (18:28)
Yeah,

it's more than just laziness. I think it really exposes people for their superficial allyship. It exposes people's performative activism. I think it does expose people. I think it shines a light on people's real faces and true intentions.

There's no way that you can be so moved by Palestine and yet get and get have a glazed look in your eye when Kashmiris in the valley and their occupation is mentioned. It sounds to reason that there is no question that that doesn't make sense. But I think that for those individuals, they are just exposing themselves and they should be exposed because when we have these freedom movements, we need people.

in there that are sincerely there for the right reasons and not for let's say self-serving egoic reasons.

Point (19:30)
Yeah, definitely. I agree with you there. mean, one thing is that I find it so odd that people, in this case, of course, both you and I, we support Palestine, but it's very odd when your morality sort of is aligned with one oppressed people and then the other is sort of brushed away. In this case, for example, we have found many people who are even Pakistani and Indian.

and many would not speak against their own government but they would speak openly about Palestine and what Israel does. And where exactly would that morality align is the question I ask myself often. It's very odd to me. Final question though. What more do you think can be done?

Teyshi (20:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Point (20:20)
in form of activism, be it to hold people accountable or to do some form of, I guess, if in any case, boycott, divestment and sanctioning is something, or I guess to protest, what exactly should be done? What more can we do?

Teyshi (20:39)
Yeah, I think it's a really great question because this remains, guess, our kind of eternal challenge. I think where we're starting, which is to see that Kashmir does exist, make sure that it has a voice, you know, that people understand Kashmiris, what's happening to them. I think what we've done in this series really well is expose the links between India and Israel and the fact that, you know,

as far as Zionism is concerned, it is kind of like a very much copied thing, which I think we, know, the work we're doing to, and others actually are doing to educate people on, you know, there are willfully ignorant people, but there are people who are willing to learn. And so for those people that are willing, it's to expose the commonalities between the Kashmiri struggle, the Palestinian struggle,

the oppressive regimes of India and Israel. And by doing that, it helps people to understand what is actually going on. I think it also keeps people focused on humanity rather than little pools of where people feel they need to sit or it's almost like people feel like they can only do one thing at a time, which is crazy. It doesn't make any sense. think that, so I think those are the beginnings parts.

I think once we had this sort of traction and awareness, we could then look at, you know, doing some of things to BDS. I don't think we're anywhere near at the moment in getting buy-in from the world or from activists even to kind of sanction India to, you know, to boycott their goods. I think that would hurt India. I think we would see great results because India, it has got to a place now where, you know, it has achieved certain...

milestones, right, you know, in its kind of economical and other sort of ambitions. And so the kind of, you know, boycott and divestment is really, I think this is a language they would understand, right, humanitarian and kind of pleas for that. It's not a language that they're particularly going to be open to, but certainly those that would work. think working together with other allies from

Point (22:33)
Yeah.

Teyshi (22:55)
you know, and other activists from other things and joining up. There have been several kind of ways that people have done this, by the way, I've seen from Turtle Island to Kashmir, which was a kind of, I don't know what it was called, like a Zoom call or some kind of, don't know what you'd call it. was like a live, they streamed it and it talked about all three. It talked about Turtle Island. It talked about Palestine. It talked about Kashmir.

I think more of those things need to happen. And for me, what I've been doing personally is I've been asking Indians that are pro-Palestinian that I know to kind of think twice about the pride that they feel about calling themselves Indian, you know, because at the end of the day, the concept of the idea of India, this is from my point of view, in terms of how I try to sort of speak to Indians is that...

Point (23:24)
Definitely.

Teyshi (23:46)
The concept of India is only really a very new concept. It was pretty much established by the British Empire. And before that, you know, a very formal and solid idea of what India was didn't really exist. And so I say to people, do you know, do you really want to identify with that? You know, so many years down the line when India's crimes come to light, you'll feel a sense of shame about that identity. If you're from, for example,

Punjab, call yourself Punjabi. If you're from Gujarat, call yourself Gujarati, right? If you're from whichever state that you're in. Because what that helps to do is it helps to create a sense of I distance myself from India, because at the moment it has a fascist government. And this is people using their kind of ability to create a sense of disdain with that identity. And I think that's good.

Point (24:17)
Yeah.

Teyshi (24:38)
I think that's very good because it does seem to be a war of, it seems to at the moment to be a war and a warfare of perception. So if we can shift the perception, that's where I'd like to go. But yeah, definitely for me BDS type of stuff would be great. But for us to get to that point, we need to drive enough awareness and really get people to the place where they understand that

these things are all linked and we need to be calling them out unanimously.

Point (25:12)
Yeah, definitely. mean, your own point there, I do think something like BDS, mean, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctioning will definitely take time. But I can actually picture it to be very effective. And like you said, India has actually had certain milestones, incentives and many other certain projects and such stuff with other nations, brands and all that.

So yeah, definitely, I agree with that point. And I think that is it for the interview. However, if you would like to mention something more, feel free. In my opinion, of course, I believe Kashmir is there. It matters. It exists. It should exist. And Kashmir...

Kashmir will always exist and that is why we should talk about them. And of course, this isn't a talk that we end, it's a continued talk because ideas will always form and you will always have people to hold accountable for what they're doing.

Teyshi (26:16)
Yeah, definitely. From my point of view, want to make the, you know, especially Kashmiris and the diaspora. And this is not something I would ask Kashmiris on the ground, but certainly Kashmiris and the diaspora to feel, you know, to build their networks of people so that when we have to collaborate and we have to, you know, get together to do these kind of projects that we form, you know, very strong bonds and that we can trust people.

I think we always have to worry about infiltrators, which I know we might talk about another time, but this is all part of the movement. This is all part of the work that has to be done. And inshallah, soon, hopefully in the new year, we get some more Kashmiri voices on here. So look forward to that.

Point (26:59)
Definitely, that would be awesome. Thank you so much, Teishi, first of all being vulnerable with us, to share all this with us. You being someone from Kashmir, it's very rare to be able to get all this information. So yeah, thank you so much.

Teyshi (27:15)
My pleasure, thank you as well.

Point (27:17)
Thank you. Take care. Alright, that was it. Goodbye.

Teyshi (27:22)
Bye bye then.