Maria (00:00.365)
Welcome everybody to new episode of Kashmir Exists podcast. Today we have a very powerful topic to discuss. We're to talk about the war crimes and human rights violations the India has committed in the Kashmir Valley. And for this I have a very special guest, my beloved friend Tashi with me.

so she can inform us more what's going on in the Kashmir Valley. Welcome, Tashi.

Teyshi (00:35.639)
Hi Maria, yes, you are my beloved friend as well. And thank you very much for those words. And it's a topic that I've come to learn more about is these war crimes and human rights violations as you so rightly said. And so I think together we're gonna discover a little bit more about the reality behind the headlines.

Maria (00:56.672)
Yeah, because when we talk about occupation, it sounds very easy to say, but people don't understand what is behind this. It's not just military and foreign country. It's all that these people do to the civilians, to the people living there. They are suffering because of this occupation. And these are war crimes. They are violating human rights for the people in Kashmir Valley.

So yes, Tesshi, thank you for being here so we can talk more about this.

Teyshi (01:30.954)
My pleasure. My pleasure.

Maria (01:34.07)
So I want you to elaborate, what are the primary allegations of war crimes against India and the Kashmir Valley?

Teyshi (01:42.857)
Yeah, as you so rightly say, these days when we hear the word occupation, when we hear the words jeez genocide, I can say genocide, we're not on TikTok. We can get a little bit blasé about it, but yeah, the reality behind these is a real eye-opener. So, you know, some of the primary allegations include extrajudicial killings, enforced disappearances, torture, mass rapes, collective punishments.

the use of excessive force on civilians. Now human rights organizations and local activists have accused Indian security forces of perpetrating these acts, particularly during the counter-insurgency operation. So what that really means is that India has used the excuse of insurgency from within Kashmir and from Pakistan even, in other words, alleged terrorism, as an excuse for carrying out these

extrajudicial killings and by that it really means killing people when it goes beyond the bounds of what is allowed. But obviously all the above mentioned which is the enforced disappearances, torture, rapes etc. This is kind of like their excuse that they use and that's really what the allegations against India are, is that they're committing these war crimes.

Maria (03:06.076)
Yeah and I want to put a disclaimer out there. We are leaving numbers outside this communication. Why? Because we don't have accurate numbers because all other reports have been hidden or alterated. And also the other reason why we are not using numbers is because people get caught up in the

in this and they forget that when we talk about disappearance, when we talk about torture, we were talking about mass rape, we talk about humans. This happened to people, people like you, people like me. So it's not 10,000 or 89. It's someone's mother, someone's daughter, someone's father, someone's grandfather even. So for our listener, please, when we talk about, when we go through this topic, visualized humans, this is happening to someone like you.

Teyshi (03:40.476)
Yeah.

Teyshi (04:01.192)
Absolutely. And of course, they don't have documented numbers these days because everything's being hidden. Things aren't being... It's not as if India is recording them. So even some of the statistics they have for all these things are least two years, if not more, older, you know? So it's kind of like another way that they can beat us with that stick while you don't have the numbers. Well, we can't have the numbers. We only have numbers from around five years ago.

Maria (04:01.959)
Yeah.

Maria (04:32.514)
And also one is one too many. So the numbers are not in the heart that much way. I just want to remind to everybody listening, we're talking about humans here. Someone like you, someone like your dad, someone like your mother. So I want humanize these accusations.

Teyshi (04:36.326)
Absolutely.

Teyshi (04:51.131)
Yeah, and thank you. Thank you for doing that, Maria.

Maria (04:53.701)
Thank you for helping me, for teaching me so much. also Tashi, I heard about the armed forces special powers when I was doing some research. Can you tell me what is the role in the Kashmir conflict?

Teyshi (05:10.468)
Yes, there's something called, like you mentioned, the AF SPA, is kind of, they have these different acts going on. They have these different laws, by the way. This is one of them. And that stands for Armed Forces Special Powers Act. And it just literally means that it gives immunity to Indian Armed Forces operating in a quote unquote disturbed areas like Jammu and Kashmir, allowing them to conduct operations without fear of prosecutions. Now, isn't that convenient?

Critics argue that AFSPA foster cultural impunity, enabling human rights abuses and shielding perpetrators from accountability. So the pretext of this act is saying, well, you know, these are armed forces. They are gonna have to carry out at some point, you know, certain parts of their duty. And so they should be beyond the realms of the law because that's part of their job. And it's kind of shielding them in that way.

Maria (05:49.348)
you

Maria (05:58.468)
Thank

Teyshi (06:07.79)
But of course, yet again, we go back to a similar point in one, it's kind of like an excuse being used for the various war crimes that have taken place, which is, well, it was in the line of duty, right? So, yeah, there are a lot of shady goings on there. It's almost like they have a blank check because they are beyond reproach. So they can act with impunity as it says.

and do whatever they need to in the valley because they will just say that it was in the line of duty. And that's what the, you know, to put it in a simple way, that's what the AF SPA allows the Indian Army to do basically in the valley. They can literally do all these terrible things that we've heard of and get away with it.

Maria (06:57.258)
it happens worldwide like at the high behind the badge and it says collateral damage the favorite place

Teyshi (07:02.723)
Yes, 100 percent. Oh yes, this is a learned behaviour. This is certainly not something new and we know that India is very good at copy and paste when it comes to warfare tactics and certainly occupational tactics, illegal occupation in a not so dissimilar Israel.

Maria (07:26.583)
Yeah, that's basically simple bullying. So I have an international organization investigate any of these alleged, I'm not going say alleged, these war crimes. Do you know any investigation going on?

Teyshi (07:30.595)
100%.

Teyshi (07:43.171)
Well, we do know that the likes of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the United Nations have reported on human rights violations in Kashmir. In 2018, the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, OHCHR, sorry, OHCHR, let me say that correctly, released a report highlighting alleged abuses and called for an international investigation. So yes, there are...

Like we see in a lot of these situations that we see these voices being thrown out, but what's really being done, you know? So, but listen, to the point where international organisations have voiced concern, have investigated, yes, there are a number of them that have done that.

Maria (08:28.61)
It's interesting. I'm going to be, I'm going to say something that most people are not going to like, but we have so many of these fancied organizations and groups, but we don't see results, right? So it is up to us. You, me, our viewers, it's important for us to educate ourselves on what's going on and call it out.

Teyshi (08:42.082)
Mm-hmm.

Teyshi (08:48.928)
Yeah.

100%.

Maria (08:58.338)
because as you see, like they do, they make wonderful speeches. The United Nations is full of exceptional speeches for big names. But we need actions because even though you don't think they're affecting you, it will affect you because if they happen to them, it can happen to you. And a lot of people are

Teyshi (08:58.721)
Yep.

Teyshi (09:08.585)
Yeah. Yeah.

We do.

Teyshi (09:21.352)
Absolutely.

Maria (09:26.249)
are disappearing and have you heard that? What is the status of the disappearing people in Kashmir?

Teyshi (09:32.542)
Yeah, there's a big phenomena that has taken place since at least, well, the 90s, if not the late 80s of something that's called forced disappearances. And there are human rights groups that have estimated that thousands of people have been subject to these enforced disappearances in the Kashmir since, like I said, the 1990s. Now, the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons, APDP, has documented cases and continues.

to demand accountability, their numbers are 10,000 and they want answers regarding the whereabouts of the loved ones. I may add at this point, not a single one of those people, of those 10,000 men has ever returned. And yes, behind those numbers are humans. I think one of the things that I would advise people to do is Google or any other search engine you want to.

in forced disappearances, Kashmir, and then type in testimonies. There's a lady there that her son was taken away and, you know, he was tortured and, you know, he will have inevitably been killed. But she led this APDP, the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons, she led it and she continues to fight for justice.

It's her that's collated the information. They remember them every year. They have the photos of these men and they are to this day demanding justice. In fact, I was watching that very sort of documentary of her speaking and it was actually so heart-wrenching and moving because she said she was literally illiterate before this happened. She said the disappearance of her son forced her.

to educate herself. She literally had to like read and write to a standard that she hadn't done before so that she could communicate and put together this association and to create this movement to Indian and the Indian soldiers to account. she literally, and I watched that YouTube video, she was saying that she wasn't very well read, but she had to go through, she literally educated herself.

Teyshi (11:52.049)
forced herself to learn to read and write and not just in her own language, it would have been in Hindi because of course she's communicating with the oppressor and their language is different. They write in a different. Also, she would have probably had to learn to read and write in English as well. So she said that because of this, she literally had to go through a crash course in the sort of education that people get in high school just because she had to do it.

to enable her to keep up this fight. So it's actually, and this is why you're so right, it's not just about 10,000 this, the story behind it and to hear the sheer hell that those mothers and parents and families went through. They went from jail to jail, their sons were picked up or detained by the army, the police. Then they went looking for them. Where are they? Where are they? They'd go to one jail and they say, they're not here. They go to another jail, they're not here. And of course they weren't even being told the truth.

what a lot of they think were these 10,000 men that they've counted, this is the loved ones that come forward, it's 10,000 of their men, whether it's brothers, sons, whoever, you know, that they know that they were picked up, they would have been tortured, and if they're not dead then they'll be in prison, but they're not being told where, so they have no idea whether it's inside Kashmir, outside Kashmir.

They just know that none of them are returned, so yeah. Very sad.

Maria (13:21.277)
You're so right when you say that India is an expert on copy paste. All these behavior, right? Because we heard the same in Syria, right? All these people disappearing. Nobody knew where they are. yeah, and that's the money that you say about the mother is so powerful. The power of the mother love, right? He had to go and take action on herself to try to save his son.

Teyshi (13:32.271)
Yeah.

Teyshi (13:35.607)
Exactly.

Teyshi (13:42.155)
gosh,

Maria (13:50.296)
is different when it hits you, right? So it's important for us to keep.

Teyshi (13:52.73)
Absolutely. You really understand it. You understand it in a more than three-dimensional way. What the hell is going on? And I would even go as far as to say, I bet not even every Kashmiri knows. Never mind else people outside Kashmir, even in South Asia. Not every Kashmiri. I didn't until, and it really opens your eyes. And then you think this is happening to my own people, my own land. And I had no idea. This is how good India are at doing this.

under the cover of darkness. It's absolutely crazy and horrifying.

Maria (14:25.539)
Yeah, and like I said, since I met you, I'm more aware of everything what's going on.

Teyshi (14:33.337)
Well, we're both on journey, Maria, and I'm just so grateful that people are giving the time and their hearts, minds, lending an ear and listening because that is the best thing we can do for any movement, for any oppressed people. But obviously, in the context we're talking about, Kashmir, this is the best thing we can do is humanise them, make them visible, make their stories visible to combat the crimes of India.

Maria (15:01.666)
Yes, so I heard they have weed on the sheep. What is the contact on that in the Kashmiri Valley?

Teyshi (15:09.304)
Yeah, I mean, when I first read it, I was like half widows. How can someone be a half widow? it basically, yeah, I mean, I was baffled, I'll be honest with you. So thank goodness there was an explanation. But yeah, it refers to women whose husbands have disappeared, leaving them in a state of uncertainty, you know, about whether they are widowed or not. So yes, their husbands have disappeared, you know, are their husbands alive or dead? So you're a half widow effectively, because he may be dead, but then he may not.

Maria (15:13.716)
Right?

Teyshi (15:38.241)
So then this new term half widow comes out, which is insane. And what that really is telling you that these women, apart from the horrifying reality that something might have happened to their husband and the father of their children is that their own status, their life is under pause. They can't move on, right? So these women often face social, financial and emotional challenges while awaiting news about their spouses. This is quite unbelievable.

Maria (15:50.425)
Thank

Teyshi (16:07.157)
And of course the children then as well, know, they're orphans, but then they're maybe half orphans if that's a thing. You know, this is just insane.

Maria (16:15.874)
So what you're saying is they cannot move on like an Alimbost basically to Weywa.

Teyshi (16:22.612)
Yeah, I mean some of these disappearances are like 30 years old. Just imagine.

Maria (16:30.562)
can't imagine the pain, you know, you had to carry it, you cannot move on. Like it's no way. Well.

Teyshi (16:35.156)
Yeah, because every day they must have been thinking, well, maybe he can come back. So they can't move on. But how long, you know, but then nevermind that, it's just the horror of that reality. And you know what's interesting is you understand the effect of this. It absolutely served as a warning to the people of the valley. You better behave yourself, otherwise the same will happen to you.

Maria (17:00.107)
Yeah, it's like an intimidation tactic basically.

Teyshi (17:04.309)
Absolute facts,

Maria (17:07.819)
Another term that I learned reading this is the, I hope that I say it right, the bellet guns. What is the use of pellet guns and an impact on civilians in Kashmir Valley?

Teyshi (17:16.33)
Yes?

Teyshi (17:21.085)
Yeah, so the pellet guns is one that we do hear of sometimes and it is a kind of, you do wonder, pellet guns, because it's kind of strange, like what is the point of it all? essentially what it's meant, so we'll talk about what it's meant to and then what actually happens. So it's used as a form of crowd control. It's meant to be non-fatal, right?

Maria (17:29.207)
Yeah.

Teyshi (17:48.062)
So you would like the obvious question is, well, why would they use pellet guns and not just the usual guns that they normally use? They're not normally shy of it. It's meant to be, well, it's a way of getting the crowd under control without actually causing death. Because pellet guns are thought to be like, you know, use rubber bullets. And so non-lethal, that's what they say. But they have actually caused severe injuries and blinded

hundreds of people and I think the last count was 800 people that were blinded out of thousands that had life-changing injuries, like, know, thousands that were actually hit by these and these included children. So human rights groups have condemned their use, which you would expect them to do, you know, they've argued that they are indiscriminate. So they're firing these pellets indiscriminately at the crowd, regardless of where they think the trouble is coming.

from so innocent people getting caught up young old and that it's disproportionately harming civilians. So this is the reality of, know, you know, they'll try and make out they're doing something humane, but actually this is the reality. So I think that's quite a good metaphor for India on the surface. It tries to act, you know, morally humanitarian, but we understand with our eyes open, you know, that this is a

front for them, it's subterfuge for their actual very, very violent and ruthless ambitions towards the Kashmiri civilians.

Maria (19:28.739)
It's insane because basically say okay we're not gonna kill you but we may blind you, we may affect you for the rest of your life but at least we didn't try to kill you. This is ridiculous at this point, that kind of mentality.

Teyshi (19:34.832)
Yeah.

Teyshi (19:45.681)
It's the actions of a psychopath. This is a psychopath mentality.

Maria (19:48.506)
Yeah, it is. And then they expect us to say thank you. Thank you. You're doing it.

Teyshi (19:54.573)
yeah, absolutely. Like they say Maria, everyone loves Kashmir, nobody loves Kashmiris. They fight over this land as if this land and the area was the best thing on earth and yet they treat the people. know, well war crimes are the two words. There's nothing more I can say about it. It's not up for debate. India gets away with this stuff in broad daylight. Nobody.

out of the international community really condemns them.

Maria (20:25.776)
But I just want to say that the essence, the beauty of Kashmir Valley is its people. That's the biggest treasure.

Teyshi (20:34.288)
Thank you, Ays, yeah, very good.

Yeah, absolutely.

Maria (20:38.404)
So I want to talk about something. I want to do a trigger warning to everybody listen. I cannot touch on sexual crimes. Can you please share information on the mass rapes going on in Kashmir, Bali?

Teyshi (20:57.877)
Yeah, so there are, like we say, these incidents that we're talking about, the war crimes in general, we know they're ongoing. It's just they stop being documented because once some of these examples and testimonies escaped, India then effectively put the valley under a communications lockdown and blackout, which is why we don't really hear much, but we know stuff goes on. some of the historic ones have been the very well known.

mass rapes that occurred in two villages, particularly of Kunan and Pushpora. And this happened in 1991. Many of the victims have come forward to give evidence. And it's shown that it's systematic sexual violence by Indian security forces, you know, that they were actually, you know, a lot of the victims that have come forward and even people that will happen to be present that weren't victims have said that

they were witness to the fact that soldiers had been ordered to carry this out. So what exactly happened? Let me give you a quick background if you're wondering what happened. They raided these villages and again, under the pretext of rounding up terrorists, know, troublemakers, Muslim terrorists, because they love that. And again, who did they learn that off? It's no mystery. So they rounded up all these men and boys from the villages.

and they were then taken away and tortured and beaten. And then while the houses were then devoid of the men of the household, the order that went forth, which India obviously denied, but obviously they're going to deny it, was the order was then to go in and brutalize the women and they were gang raped. And a lot of the witness testimonies say that it went on all night and they didn't spare anyone. There were minors.

There were pregnant women, heavily pregnant women. There were old women. There were, you know, obviously women of a younger age. I read that, you know, because I recently had to read some of the testimonies, which will go live at some point, where there were members of a household of different generations. Like even in the same room, there could be a grandmother along with her granddaughter. And they were both being gang raped by these soldiers.

Teyshi (23:16.461)
So, you know, it's only once you see the testimony that the full horror of what they did actually hits you. And again, it was to instill that absolute fear into people's hearts because you have to realize as well in that, in the South Asian culture, you know, things like sexual violence is a stigma also. Sometimes they're worried.

that nobody will marry their daughters because even though crime has been committed against them, they're worried that people might think they're tainted and so they won't be marriageable anymore. So it's brave for the people that did come out and speak because they risked a lot of stigma. Now, while survivors and activists continue to seek the justice for these historic crimes, and they are to this day pushing to get justice,

these cases remain unsolved and accountability has been minimal. So what we've seen is a cover-up basically. India not acknowledging or admitting that anything went on that night. When you think the fact that we're talking about two whole villages of women and children, girls, disabled, heavily pregnant, I mean, just think about that. And you're gonna try and deny that?

Maria (24:42.72)
No, and I want to highlight to everybody listening, remember the excuse is look for troublemakers, terrorists, rebels, What a pregnant woman has to do with anything? What an old age woman has to do with this?

Teyshi (24:45.215)
That's wild.

Teyshi (24:56.157)
It's a recurring theme.

Teyshi (25:01.096)
Yeah, it's a recurring theme. It's a recurring theme, the Islamophobia, the terrorist label. Remember, everyone is a potential terrorist. I know that when we were being stopped and our picnic basket searched, we were all females. So we're terrorists now as well, young girls that were in the party are terrorists. Everyone is a potential terrorist to these people, whether they are or not, they don't care. But it's a convenient label for them because it allows them to carry out. And it's of course this

AF SPA, let me just make sure I've quoted that right, AF SPA is basically the protection for these soldiers to do these things because what they're really saying is well we can't really, it's not really a normal situation that they are in the middle of a technically warfare and so they have a little bit of leeway but on top of that what their main response is there's no evidence.

not taking accountability, just flat out denial that it happened as well. this is, apart from the actual crimes itself, there is the crime of the cover-up as well.

Maria (26:17.45)
That's so true, Tashi. And you mentioned something. Does the Indian has no official response to this? No. What do they say?

Teyshi (26:27.708)
I mean, as far as I've been able to check, because I did read, like I say, guys, if you are able to, when we release the testimonies, if you're able to look at that, it will be a serious eye-opener. But basically, the official stance that I've read for a lot of these situations of these war crimes is that, you know, that as far as they're concerned, their soldiers behave correctly. India doesn't, you know, advocate.

for any sort of crime and it will investigate it. It says all, you know the stuff that you hear, Israel, and when they're talking about the ITF soldiers and the crimes they've committed, like we don't tolerate this. Anyone who is found to be doing this will be investigated and disciplined. You're hearing a same, you'll hear a similar thing. But then it always comes out as there's no evidence and there was no crimes found to be committed.

Maria (27:07.337)
again.

Teyshi (27:22.918)
Sometimes you will see some people being minorly disciplined but it's kind of for show. It's true to say that certainly in these smaller valleys that are really have are a little bit more cut off, that don't have that visibility and communication that the soldiers understand that when they go into these remote places... So when I say remote places, I'm from Sørenager.

Maria (27:23.367)
Yeah.

Teyshi (27:51.63)
If something like this happened in Srinagar, game over, like it's a very well known place. Places like Kunanapushpura, Gokadol and other places like that, they're very small, less known and less and not as connected as the capital. So when the soldiers go in, they fully understand, sorry, I meant Kulkan, but they fully understand that they've got a blank cheque.

do whatever and they can get away with it which is why when all those men got and boys got pulled out the houses and tortured nothing was done about that either by the way and that the locals that experienced that brutal night fully believe that the the soldiers were also then given the order to carry out because otherwise all those men committed all those gang

rapes that night simultaneously as if they were telepathic with each other? No, it was clearly an order. Because you wouldn't have seen that systematic crime being committed by all of them. They behaved as if they'd been given an order. Otherwise they all just uniquely thought to themselves, I'm just going to engage in this particular sexual crime, you know. So it stands to reason that they were given that order. But because they knew they were

you know, carrying out this activity in lesser known areas. They knew it was under the radar and they could get away with it. I doubt that if this had happened in Srinagar it would have been as well, you know, hidden. Nevertheless, these brave people are coming out and speaking about it. That's how we know about it. And I'm glad they did because there was every chance that this...

would have never seen the light of day and we wouldn't have known about it to the extent that we're speaking about it now. But I do think that they purposely choose these smaller, less known villages because they understand the risk of them being outed. If it was Srinagar Laksa which is the capital of Kashmir Valley, they understand that the risk is greater for them to be, to have been found out. So yeah, there's method there. You can see

Teyshi (30:11.915)
You can see how they're thinking and planning to get away with stuff.

Maria (30:17.437)
Yeah, definitely because they want to say no, it's just a few by apples. No, it's no, it's the system. It's the system problem because there too many like all the apples are bad then. Absolutely all of them because it-

Teyshi (30:25.752)
Yeah.

Teyshi (30:29.143)
Yeah, yeah. And all the army that were there that night, apart from the ones that taken the men, were involved in this. In fact, was one part of the testimony is where one of the victims heard the commander, some kind of commander that was not inside where the women were being raped. was outside. He literally heard the commotion from the soldiers and he said,

Just keep it down, just keep the noise down. So what he was basically saying was not stop what you're doing or what are you doing. He was saying, whatever you're doing, just keep it quiet. You know, we're trying to get away with this. Absolutely, absolutely Maria, absolutely.

Maria (31:08.48)
No way. They have no shame. It's ridiculous. But I mean.

Teyshi (31:16.578)
So they literally tell on themselves. They tell on themselves, honestly.

Maria (31:22.204)
Yeah, they're not even good at this. Because it makes no sense that India investigate, right? The perpetrator can not investigate their crimes. But do you know if the international community has addressed this human rights violation? Is that proposed anything to any measure to stop it?

Teyshi (31:43.103)
It's funny about the international community because they generally don't see the occupation of Kashmir anyway, but you know, the response has been mixed and while some countries and organizations have expressed concern over human rights violations, I laugh because it's ridiculous, geopolitical interests often, so here's an interesting line there, geopolitical interests often prevent strong action against India. Now isn't that interesting?

Now calls for third-party mediation are typically rejected by India, a massive red flag, wouldn't you say? I insist the issue is internal, what does that mean? So if you imagine there was a family, parents and children, and there was some sort of abuse going on, whether it was from the parent to the parent, the parent to the children, the parent to the other parent and children,

Maria (32:19.187)
definitely.

Teyshi (32:40.308)
and the police came knocking on the door and one of the abusive parents answered it and said it's nothing to do with you it's an internal matter it's for our family it's a domestic situation you know what the hell does it the issue is internal it's an internal matter for india which a lot of the international community agree with it's an internal matter for india what does that exactly mean it means yes something bad might be going on

Maria (32:54.301)
Yeah.

Teyshi (33:09.353)
but it's nothing to with us, it's a domestic. How disgusting.

Maria (33:13.125)
I hear it as like it's not a problem basically.

Teyshi (33:18.855)
Yeah, it's their private business. But you don't forget, you see, I don't know about America, Maria, but certainly in Britain, it's only recently that the police get involved with domestic violence because up until, I don't know when, but I can tell you certainly not that long ago, maybe even in the nineties, right? Maybe even in the early 2000s for all I know, but certainly maybe eighties and nineties, the stance of the police was...

If, like, say there was some domestic violence going on, it's a domestic issue, the police don't get involved. This is the same thing.

Maria (33:56.858)
Yeah, especially because, like you say, these brave people are giving testimony, yelling to the tom of the law or the lumps, like we are being annihilated here. So we have testimony, so we should all care because I guess it does not happen to you now, but if we allow this kind of behavior, it's going to spread. It's going to knock on your door and it's going to be too late.

Teyshi (34:10.622)
Yeah.

Teyshi (34:24.349)
And the reason we say that, because you know what, some people might listen to this and say, well what the hell has India got to do with this? Well, what the hell has Israel got to do with this? But actually we know it's everything to do with this because there's a couple of reasons why. These countries have a far reach. We know for example, if you look at Israel, some of their policies and their, if you look at APAC, if you look at the lobbies in general that exist around the world, their primary...

kind of goal is to put forward the interests of Israel, which sounds kind of innocuous, but look at what happened on the campuses in America. When there were demonstrations on the American university campuses, there were actual ITF soldiers spraying protesters with, I don't know whether it was pepper spray or mace, I can't remember. But these are people stepping outside of their lane and carrying out Israel's agenda.

on American citizens, that's insane. And so yes, this is not just a threat to these localized peoples, this is a wider threat. With India, it has this strong bond with Israel. It also is trying to make itself known on the international scene. And so it absolutely has everything to do with all of us, whether we are in Kashmir,

We're in Palestine, we're in Congo, or we're in our Western countries. We're not exempt from the influence that there is an actual India lobby outside of India, particularly in America, that are very pro Hindutva and very pro Modi Hindutva stand against Kashmir and the demonizing and the subjugation.

and occupation of Kashmir. This lobby is, I would say, pretty much, you know, if it's not as strong as AIPAC, it's not far behind. They also have a lot of money. They have a lot of influence and they are trying to push India's agenda. This is dangerous for us all. Whether, you know, just because we're not Kashmiri, because we don't live in India, because we're not Palestinians or we're not in the Middle East, it doesn't mean we're exempt. The influence...

Teyshi (36:47.744)
is being carried out by the people in the diaspora who are pushing the agenda of their respective home countries, whether it be Israel, whether it be India. So, you know, as far as I'm concerned, this is something we all need to take seriously and definitely push back on how passive the international community has been to these respective war crimes.

Maria (37:16.544)
Yeah, and I love that you say that because I want to end that with in that sentiments. Like we say in the beginning, we are all connected. If you don't think that it's gonna affect you, you are wrong. It's gonna affect you. And it may be too late when it came to you. So that's why we have to speak up now. You have to educate yourself now because this is spreading.

Teyshi (37:29.815)
Yeah.

Teyshi (37:37.529)
And in the words of a famous Welsh band, and you go look them up, the Manic Street Preachers, they're called the Welsh, if you tolerate the, I know, what a tenuous reference, but I love it because I did quote it on a live that I was on, I was on So Cal Smitty's live, and I said it, and the outrage from the Zios was wild, but I literally said, if you tolerate this,

then your children will be next. It's actual coming to that. It's coming to that Maria.

Maria (38:11.965)
It's true. I know, I believe it. And that's why I'm in this fight. No, because for my family, I don't want, I don't want it to be, I don't have to live it to understand it. I see it. So we need to be more empathic with all this people pain because it could be you. It could be your father missing. It could be your husband missing. It could be your child affected. We are connected. So, well, this was an amazing conversation, Tesshi.

Teyshi (38:28.939)
Yeah.

Teyshi (38:33.847)
100%. Absolutely.

Maria (38:41.448)
Thank you so much again to Knowledge Make Us Better. And I know our viewers enjoy you and your voice.

Teyshi (38:46.753)
Thank you.

thank you so much Maria it's been great and yeah please you know to the viewers of this do take a moment to look into a bit more read our articles there will be some testimonies coming out and also hey google it go on youtube please check out organizations like stand with kashmir check them out on youtube on instagram they have

witness testimonies on there. There are women that have been brave enough to go on camera and talk about not just the mass rapes but also the forced disappearances. There are members of the press and journalists who have given testimonies of how they have been brutalized by you know the Indian army and the Indian government where they go through a revolving door of arrest, release, arrest, release. This is all intimidation tactics.

And so I would invite every listener to take a little bit of a closer look behind the headline, please.

Maria (39:54.236)
Thank you so much, Sachi. You're amazing. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Tune in soon for another episode. And yes, do you research people? Thank you. Bye.

Teyshi (39:56.158)
My pleasure. Thank you so much too. Bye, Maria. Bye bye.

Teyshi (40:07.369)
Bye bye.