Maria (00:02.059)
Hello, welcome everyone to another episode of the KashmirExists podcast. Today we're going to talk about the Indian occupation of Kashmir. And with me, I have my wonderful friend, Tashi. She has experienced first-hand what is living under the Indian occupation. He has experienced what was before and after. Welcome Tashi, thank you for joining us.

Teyshi (00:28.514)
Hi, Maria. Thank you for having me here. I love having these podcast sessions with you. And again, we now get to talk about some of the stuff about Kashmir and look deeper into the occupation of the valley by India.

Maria (00:42.901)
I appreciate you joining us because we have a lot to learn. Like me, many other people have no idea what's going on in Kashmir Valley.

Teyshi (00:52.319)
Absolutely.

Maria (00:53.791)
Can you just start by giving us a historical background on the Indian involvement in Kashmir?

Teyshi (01:00.789)
Yeah, so I think in its simplest terms to help any kind of newcomer to this conversation is that essentially, even though Kashmir Valley has always been on its own, a principality and never been part of any other country like India or Pakistan, I think it's interesting to realize a lot of what is happening to Kashmir is actually not because of itself, it's because of India.

So for example, in 1947, when British India was partitioned into India and the newly formed country of Pakistan, the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir had the option to join either country. But its ruler at the time, was Maharaja Hari Singh, initially he did choose to remain independent. However, following certain events between India and Pakistan, he became rather nervous that

Pakistan was developing an appetite to take over Kashmir. This may have not been founded. It may have been pure paranoia on his part. Nevertheless, he gave in to those fears and he acceded to India in October of 1947 in exchange for military assistance. This really led to India's involvement in Kashmir, which we are seeing.

to this day and that's really a brief explanation of how this has all come about.

Maria (02:26.643)
Wow, it's amazing how one decision changed the history of a whole entire country and community. What about the Article 370? Why so significant for Kashmir?

Teyshi (02:33.909)
Absolutely.

Teyshi (02:41.427)
Yeah, so I think Article 370 and indeed Article 35A, they were provisions in the Indian Constitution that granted Jammu and Kashmir's special autonomous status, albeit semi-autonomous. Now this allowed for it to have its own constitution, laws and autonomy over all matters except defence, communication and foreign affairs. Now this article was integral to Kashmir's relationship with India until it was abrogated in 2019. Now abrogated means

it was removed and so was article 35a. Now basically these articles ensured that for Kashmiri safety that they didn't have to worry about outsiders from the the neighbouring countries coming in and really taking over so they didn't have to worry about any other Indian national coming in buying up land and of course because there are you know presently around nine million Kashmiris in the valley back

then it would have been less. Being such a small number of people that have been ethnic to Kashmir Valley and have been indigenous to that region from Neolithic times, we are talking about further back than 3000 BCE, where there's evidence of the Kashmiri people being in that region. That's where the idea of Kashmir comes from, the identity of Kashmiri, the language, the culture, everything. And so this is a very

a fragile demographic of people and so to you know help them and to avoid them being wiped out by let's say Indian from you know the rest of the subcontinent this these particular articles were in place so that no one could just come in by land and then the next thing you know Kashmiris would be wiped out displaced

and ethnically cleansed. And this is a security for Kashmir's which it was then removed in 2019 which is a move by Modi. It essentially laid bare the BJP government's plans for occupation and it did formalise their expansionist ambitions for the valley.

Maria (04:58.095)
Yeah, it like it was the first step for a formal occupation. What about the line of control, Tashi? What is the LLC?

Teyshi (05:07.506)
Yeah, so the line of control is essentially for people again, new to the subject is the de facto border that divides the regions of Jammu and Kashmir between India and Pakistan established after the first Indo-Pakistani war in 1947 to 48. It serves as a boundary, though it is heavily militarized and remains a flashpoint for skirmishes and conflict. So essentially, this is the boundary between India and Pakistan because they still basically both sides dispute.

ownership not just over Kashmir Valley, in general they dispute the boundaries that was basically made by the British. The British are hastily drawn this boundary and they just, you know, when their sort of ruling over that land had ended, their interest in that land ended. So they quickly made this boundary and they left, leaving the mess behind that we see today. And so, to live...

along or around the line of control is actually very dangerous. There are regularly civilian deaths from exchanges of fire, but not just that. In 2019, when Article 370 and Article 35A were stripped from Kashmir Valley, we actually saw heightened tensions on the line of control and we saw India launching missiles.

towards the line of control and there were a lot of fatalities around then. We also saw some friction with the boundary between China and India because China itself was worried about what India was trying to do at that point and I'm sure they still are. But the line of control between India and Pakistan is the main area where there are constant and regular exchanges of fire.

Maria (07:01.89)
Well, it's amazing how the British decision has to affect the people today. They create a problem, they wash their hands basically.

Teyshi (07:09.825)
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Maria (07:13.869)
How do you think that the international community reacts to the Indian role in Kashmir?

Teyshi (07:20.793)
Yeah, this is an interesting one because, you know, for some people, Kashmir isn't seen, which is, of course, the reason we're doing these podcasts and the reason that other social media and other organizations are raising awareness is that because we're not seen, I think for some countries and indeed for some people generally, including South Asia, including in Pakistan, India, they're not fully aware of what's going on, reason. So this really influences.

how the world has responded. So let's look at this. Now the international community is divided on Kashmir. Some countries like Pakistan advocate for Kashmir's right to self-determination and have raised the issue in forums like the United Nations. Now this was done by Imran Khan who has tirelessly campaigned as prime minister for Kashmir Valley's, you know, to have its autonomous state and for it to achieve independence if that is what the people of the Valley wish for, which they do.

in the majority. Now other countries view it as an internal issue of India but encourage a dialogue and peaceful resolution between India and Pakistan. So this is an interesting one because we have, you know, countries and lands such as the Arab Emirates and even Syria that have gone on record to say that this is an internal matter for India. Now with that sort of language what that's really saying is that

Yes, we recognize that Kashmir is part of India and therefore this is a matter for India. What that's subtly doing is it's denying Kashmir, Kashmir their own identity, their own independence, because it is saying that as far as they're concerned, Kashmir belongs to India. So this is quite an interesting question because this really shows

the lack of understanding and awareness around the world about what is happening in Kashmir. And this is because India has successfully learned from Israel about how to hide its crimes, how to hide its hands. And so the public are fooled, the world is fooled, our neighbors are even fooled. There are people regularly that are South Asians that I speak to that do not even know what India is doing in that region. So yeah, it's interesting question and let's hope that we can change.

Teyshi (09:42.965)
the perspective going forward.

Maria (09:45.803)
very helpful that these projects and many others that we have in common are gonna raise awareness even more so we have more people speaking about Kashmir Valley. What about Pakistan? What is their role? What role do they play in the Kashmir conflict?

Teyshi (09:57.162)
Indeed.

Teyshi (10:05.31)
Yeah, so I think we can look at Pakistan as, you know, historically claiming sovereignty over Kashmir and considering itself a stakeholder in the region's fate, particularly advocating for the self-determination of Kashmiris. The country has engaged in diplomatic efforts as well as military and political strategies to support this claim, which has led to multiple wars and conflicts with India. Well, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily led to multiple

wars and conflicts with India, what I would say is that, you know, sets of people, whether it's the Indian government or the Pakistani government, historically have said that they lay, you know, a claim to Kashmir Valley. And this is really what's led to multiple wars and conflicts. So I feel like it is two countries that are kicking a football, which is Kashmir Valley. The truth is, you know, that we don't belong to either, but at least with Pakistan.

they have recognized our wish to be independence. I must add that even from the India side, when they think of Kashmir, they are probably looking at greater Kashmir, not just Kashmir Valley. So they probably want to extend the line of control further back and have expansionist ambitions to take parts of Pakistan even. They have been clear about this. This is not a secret. You know, this is a known thing that India has these.

expansionist ambitions whereas I would say current day Pakistan isn't really showing that. But as far as the people of the valley are concerned and myself particularly because you know we're the ones that being occupied by India what we do know is that we have empathy from Pakistan we have the opposite from India.

Maria (11:52.93)
I understand. So that's a big difference between those two countries and their relationship with Kashmir. I want to talk about the people. are some of the key challenges faced by the civilian in Kashmir Valley?

Teyshi (11:58.984)
Mm-hmm.

Teyshi (12:08.55)
And this is a brilliant question because we're trying to raise awareness of the people in Kashmir Valley and by talking about this, that's exactly what we're doing. So what about the actual people themselves? Well, the civilians in Kashmir face numerous challenges, including economic hardship, restricted freedom of movement, heavy military presence, intermittent communication, blackouts and frequent lockdowns. Now these factors, along with ongoing tension, have contributed to feelings of alienation,

and unrest among the Kashmiris. That's putting it mildly. I mean, we know that, you know, all the resources are taken by India from Kashmir. This includes the water. This includes the electricity where they siphon off up to 90 % of the electricity generated in the region. And it's given to the neighbors, you know, the neighboring countries of India. This means that the actual, we'll never fully be able to realize our full potential with electricity. So, you know, in the night when you turn the lights on,

It's like in an average size room having one candle. It's extremely low power. When people are having special occasions like weddings, they're having to use generators so that people can actually see and celebrate at nighttime with the wedding festivals. This is what it has done to the region. It throttles the internet. We know this. We're not even achieving 2G, nevermind 3G, 4G or 5G in the valley. The internet that is enabled.

means that you can load the internet, it's very slow, you can read some words. If you thought you wanted to post to social media like Instagram, that is a pripe dream, that wouldn't happen. Maybe if you come out of the region and go somewhere else like Delhi, then the internet is fine because you're in India at that point. But certainly they take all of these things and they use it to cripple people. The checkpoints that we've talked about, the curfews from 7pm to 7am when no one's allowed to leave the house, because essentially they're criminalising every single...

Kashmiri citizen and every civilian. What they're saying is that potentially you are all terrorists. This is what they are doing. And if they treat us like this, then of course in the world's eyes, we become the terrorists that they are accusing of us. Although the reality is that they're terrorizing us by coming into our land and trying to take over it. So they recently also discovered lithium in the region. India has of course taken over those reserves.

Teyshi (14:34.68)
And is really, if you look at the way that India is behaving in Kashmir Valley, it is a straight copy out of the Zionist playbook for when you look at what Israel has done to the Palestinian people.

Maria (14:48.427)
Yeah, that sounds very familiar. It's exactly like they're living in West Bank right now with the brutal checkpoints and occupations and limitations. But you had the blessing to experience Kashmir before this brutal occupation, right?

Teyshi (14:54.423)
Absolutely.

Teyshi (15:08.216)
Yes, absolutely. So I was born there. I left when I was five, but I kept going back and remained in the education system until I was a teenager. You know, I saw that everything was peaceful. I, for example, had Hindu teachers in a Catholic convent school. So I actually went to an Irish nun's

Catholic Convent School, which is quite a mouthful to say. But within that, we had teachers from all backgrounds. They were all Kashmiri. They could be Muslim, Hindu. I think there were Sikh teachers there as well. There was nothing strange about it. Everyone coexisted. Everyone lived in peace. And I would say that it lived, you know, the valley lived up to its name of being paradise on earth. It was an amazing place to have been brought up in.

And then of course, one year when I went back in the late 80s with my parents, that's when everything changed. I noticed even in the airport when we had landed, things had changed. There was a sudden really strong security presence there. We noticed the Indian soldiers that were there. They seemed to be everywhere, to be honest. They would stop us. We got stopped and searched a few times. And this is just the female, so.

I'd be there with my mother, my sister, my auntie, we might have our cousins with us. So we might be in a taxi and we were all women, we were getting stopped. Our picnic baskets were being searched because even we could, you know, were deemed to be troublemakers essentially. So that isn't something you can forget or avoid. That isn't something that you can ignore. And especially when you've always known the valley to be a certain way and then one year you go and there's this huge...

military presence, which we talked about it being the most militarized area in the world. And to that effect, believe current day stats, it's more than one soldier every 25 Kashmiri civilians. So you can imagine, you know, how suffocating that can be for the Kashmiris as well. And that's really the note, the difference that I noticed. also noticed, for example, that, you know, there were lots of horror stories coming out. We've had people in our family effect.

Teyshi (17:20.118)
We did have people bursting in, plain clothed, bursting in to my uncle's home and trying to be violent and aggressive there and that was a very frightening situation. So, you know, it turned from literal paradise into a potential hell that they're trying to create there.

Maria (17:42.025)
I'm very hopeful that she one day is going to go back to be the peaceful paradise, the ones before. And I have seen pictures and Kashmir is beautiful. I pictures of the lake. And I wonder, how is this occupation affected tourism in Kashmir?

Teyshi (17:51.124)
Inshallah.

Teyshi (18:05.057)
Well, yeah, another great question because tourism is a lifeblood of the valley and it's a source of income for, or it had been a source of income for a lot of people there. So the way that tourism was really, has been impacted is because of the ongoing conflict. now I just mentioned that Kashmir has often been known as paradise on earth for its natural beauty and is once a major tourist destination. However, the ongoing

military presence and the problems there and periods of unrest have discouraged tourism, which affects the economy. Now, the recent years have seen some improvement. The sector remains vulnerable to fluctuation in peace and security. I think it's interesting to notice that people's livelihoods have been affected. We see more people leaving the valley now and especially people of my age who

you know, well, my dad left the valley to come to the UK, but certainly people of his age, my age and my children's age are leaving the valley and looking for jobs and to make their lives elsewhere, whether it's the Middle East, whether it's America or other places in Europe. And so the people that can't leave are the people that rely on tourism.

because that was their source of income. So it puts them in dire straits. For the first time, we're seeing people begging in Kashmir Valley where this wasn't really a thing. So of course it's had a huge impact on the tourism. The other thing that India have actually done is that they have taken control of the tourism. So they now take control of Kashmir tourism. So it's a subtle way for them to take control of the narrative as well. I've noticed that on social media, they invite a lot of

Indian Hindus who are influences on, for example, you know, Instagram or TikTok to come to the Valley and to make content for it to appeal to other, the other sort of Indian Hindus. So this is a way that they are taking control. They're controlling the narrative. This again, if this...

Teyshi (20:22.142)
tourism narrative goes globally. It's also telling the world what the story is, which is basically a lie, you know, from the point of view of regular everyday Kashmiris. So the tourism on many levels is not only impacting everyday Kashmiris, indigenous peoples, livelihoods, then losing relatives who are leaving, but also it is a subtle tool of propaganda from the Indian government.

Maria (20:52.274)
That is so sad. Yeah, because these people are definitely affected, taking their resources away and their culture away. But does she, how do you think that we can achieve peace in the Kashmir region?

Teyshi (21:07.762)
Well, I think if you were to ask an average sort of commenter on the Kashmir conflict, they may say that the future of the peace in Kashmir Valley largely depends on diplomatic efforts between India and Pakistan and engagement with Kashmir leaders and efforts to address local grievances, perhaps. A peaceful resolution, you know, could likely require dialogue.

confidence building measures and addressing socio-economic issues affecting the local population. Now that could be seen as the average commentator's sort of opinion. What I would personally say is alongside with all of that, India and Pakistan will need to have a commitment to the Kashmiri people of backing off, coming right out the land. And they not only leave the land, they are fully in support of Kashmir and it's...

ambitions to self-govern and its independence ambitions. That is where the real peaceful future will be. Anything short of this, we will only ever see conflict in the region. And even if India, for example, were to completely occupy Kashmir and drive out the locals and make Kashmir Valley India Plus as part of its expansionist ambitions,

This would not even achieve peace. What you'd have is you would have growing tensions with its neighbors, namely Pakistan and China. And then you would see more escalating issues, whether it's, you know, military or otherwise. And so the, you know, the independence status of Kashmir is actually important for Pakistan, India and China, because it does sort of act as a buffer between.

each of these countries against each other. so peace in the region, it really lies in giving power to the people of the valley and empowering them to have independence. And for that, the commitment to that has to be made by all three, in fact, not just Pakistan and India, but also by China. They need to commit to supporting Kashmir Valley independence. And that's when really we can see peace. That's the true answer.

Maria (23:29.5)
And I totally agree with you. I the independence of Kashmir is key for the equilibrium power of this region. Well, this was very interesting, very educational. Thank you so much, Tashi, for giving us all that information so we can learn more about the Kashmiri Valley and the Indian occupation.

Teyshi (23:52.059)
my pleasure and thank you so much, Maria, for being a brilliant host as usual. And I look forward to our next episode. Hopefully that'll be coming soon. But certainly what we'll aim to do with your help is to educate people, shed more light on the little known oppression of Kashmiri people and hopefully do our bit in helping to avoid what is inevitably going to be an ethnic cleansing of Kashmir Valley.

Maria (24:21.936)
That is for sure so everybody stay tuned because we have more episodes with more of Tesshi and other guests that's gonna share their experience and the knowledge on Kashmir. Thank you for tuning in and see you next time. Bye.

Teyshi (24:33.665)
Inshallah.

Teyshi (24:38.924)
Bye bye.