My infrastructure is just my perimeter fence and my water system and I've got one fence down the
center to hook my poly braid onto and that's it. I use a four-wheeler to run my temporary fencing
around and I move my portable water tank around and it's really pretty simple stuff. The management
works. It's all about the management.
Welcome to the 344th installment of Ear to the Ground, the Land Stewardship Project's podcast
on family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy.
I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter. Okay, time for the word of the day,
FLERD, which is spelled F-L-E-R-D. It's a combination of flock and herd. This describes a situation
where a farming operation combines two different species such as cattle and sheep and grazes them
on a piece of ground simultaneously. It can be a way of producing livestock that saves time and
makes use of a limited number of acres. And since cattle and sheep graze differently, a FLERD can be
an efficient way to get the most bang for your buck out of acres that are less than optimal
production-wise. FLERD grazing is just one of the ways George Heller is building a livestock
operation on worn out sandy soil near the town of Verndale, which, depending on whom you ask,
isn't either the central part of Minnesota or is verging on being in the northern part of the state,
whatever the geographical reference. Needless to say, George is farming some challenging ground.
Besides grazing coarse, drought-prone soil, he's also dealing with a growing season that's only 120
days long. In contrast, the growing season in southeastern Minnesota can be as long as roughly
150 days or more. As George puts it, he's always planning for winter in his neck of the woods.
But since buying a few bottle lambs five years ago, George has gradually built up an operation
that's based on a UFLOC as well as a cow-calf herd of South Pole beef cattle. The ultimate
goal of his operation, which is called West 80 South Poles, is to create a seed stock enterprise.
He's particularly interested in how he can develop a line of South Pole cattle that are adapted to a
northern climate. South Poles are usually associated with the hot, humid climate of the southern U.S.
and are a small-framed animal that can do well on grass and are resistant to parasites. The
farmer now utilizes adaptive rotational grazing on 290 owned and rented acres to support his
cattle and sheep as well as to regenerate the depleted soil. The 43-year-old is building his
enterprise literally from the ground up. Beyond fencing and watering systems as well as a four-wheeler,
his infrastructure is minimal and he estimates that not counting the land and animal costs,
he has just a few thousand dollars invested in the whole operation. By the way, speaking of land costs,
because it's considered marginal soil, George has been able to access acres at a much lower price
than his counterparts in prime corn and soybean country. The farmer runs a concrete boring
business with five full-time employees, so time is a valuable commodity. Despite being limited in how
many hours he can spend on the farm, George moves his animals daily, something that was particularly
important in 2023 when it only rained four inches between May and September in his area. He feels
techniques like this not only make good use of available forage and protect pastures from
overgrazing but have built up the soil carbon on acres that, before he started farming them, were
pretty much tapped out by years of hain. George traveled to southeastern Minnesota in June 2024
to present at the Land Stewardship Project's Driftless Grazing School, which was hosted by
livestock producers Jordan and Rochelle Meyer. The farmer from the North Country made it clear
that he was in awe of the comparatively rich soil and decent climate the Myers and the other
school participants were dealing with. Nevertheless, he had an important message for the grazers,
no matter what their circumstances, success isn't about having the best soil and weather.
Through careful observation and the ability to adapt and keep things in context, even the most
challenging growing conditions can generate a successful livestock operation. As the grazing
school wrapped up its second and final day, I chatted with George about his bootstrap livestock
operation and how he's been able to gradually build a solid foundation under less than optimal
conditions when it comes to soil, infrastructure, and time. So we just started out five years ago,
we wanted to get some clean meat to eat and I got some younger kids and wanted to get something for
them to do, so we went and got six bottle lambs and started with them and I kind of started
watching YouTube and found a couple people on there and caught the bug a little, so then I wanted to
push it a little further and bought some hair use and then I went and bought some rams in Missouri
and then I bought some cows and I've just been kind of progressing from there and we ended up
buying an 80-acre farm so we could graze on it because the land we had didn't have a lot of grass
on it, mostly trees, and it's just been going pretty good and we ended up buying another 160-acre farm
last fall, so right now land available to graze, we're at like 290 acres of grazable land. We've
got 135 fenced right now and we're working on fencing the other 160. And what was the history
of this land? Had it been cropped or? Hay fields, old hay fields. They're really depleted and
we're in coarse sand so I mean if it's dry for a week or two it's pretty dry. That's a good point
about the hay, you know people think of hay, well it's a perennial, so it's building the soil, but if
you're taking hay off every year and you're not putting anything back it can deplete the soil pretty
good. Right because carbon is the key to keeping the soil healthy and if you're removing all the
carbon and not putting anything back you're just you're robbing your soil of nutrients and you're
robbing your soil biology of its ability to improve things. Yeah so we're at this grazing school here
we're here in southeast Minnesota, it's a lot different soil type, a lot different landscape.
You're from Brainerd which you call central Minnesota, some people consider that northern,
but it is it is north of here, but it is a different, it's like you said it's real sandy
soil and I assume you have a shorter growing season, there's probably some other challenges.
About 120 day growing season so I mean we got to do things quick and we got to plan, always planning
for winter so basically as soon as the grass starts growing we're planning for the following winter
managing our grasses so we can grow some stockpile the graze late into the season and
trample carbon down and try to build fertility and the soil and it's been a little bit of a
challenge because our ground is so poor but we've been making improvements been out wintering there
feeding hay out in the winter time and that's been that's been making a lot of improvements.
Are you so you finishing or what you're doing sheep and cattle right? Sheeping cattle right now
I'm just on the beginning end of trying to build a cow calf operation I want to do a south pole
seed stock operation I don't know you know what south pole cattle are they're up southern they're
called the southern mama cow so they're really bred for down in the south and the really hot
humid climates but they're super efficient on grass and they're good parasite resistance
and they've got a small frame size and they do really well on our northern forages so what I'm
trying to do is get a northern adaptive northern adapted south pole breed that I can sell seed
stock off of and then same with the sheep too I want to get the sheep same thing sell seed stock
off them mostly want to try to do that instead of trying to do grass-fed beef. So you're really
going you're starting up from the ground up and so and everything from the soil you're not even
able to come into a farm and say okay we've got a certain no no in fact Rochelle was remarking on
a poor pasture that she had down the bottom and it's probably better than any piece of ground I've
got so it's been a challenge but I mean I guess I'm up for it and that's where I'm at so. And
was the land more a little more affordable since it's much more affordable there I mean you're
talking three thousand dollars an acre where I'm at and I mean I think down here you're talking
if you can pick up an acre for ten to fifteen thousand you're doing pretty good so
you're it's quite a bit more affordable there they call what it's called marginal land mostly
all deer hunting is the primary function of most of the land around where we live yeah. That makes
you make a good point there because it's marginal land you were able to maybe as a beginning farmer
I don't know how old how old are you? 43. I still consider that a beginning farmer anybody younger
than me? I'm a beginning farmer. You are your beginning because you're young yeah okay yeah
anyway you're able to get access to that land to land you wouldn't be able to get access to down
here much more affordable downside to that is well it's really poor land there's a reason it's
accessible or yeah that you're able to get access to it but because you are learning some of these
soil health practices you're able to use utilize livestock and multi-species grazing you're able
to add value to that land it sounds like. Absolutely yeah yeah we've been making quite a bit of
improvements with the winter feeding and the running the cattle and we do a daily move daily
rotation on the cattle to maximize our rest periods and maximize our fertility program so
we're really working towards getting the land improved so we can get a bigger stand of grass
and increase our stock density that's kind of a goal that's it the goal to be able to run I'd
like to run 50 pairs and 100 head of ewes on one piece of land so that's kind of my goal.
What are you doing now? We got about 120 sheep so 60 ewes and all their lambs so that's about
100 120 140 sheep and then we've got about 30 head of cattle right now it's probably I don't know
15 to 18 pairs right now. Can you take us through I know it's not typical but what would be if you
come to a piece of ground that you're trying to improve and what would be the kind of the
cycle that you would go through with kind of building that soil health? Cattle well you want
to make sure you got a good perimeter fence that's number one second thing is your water system
get your water system developed you get your perimeter fence and your water system developed
that gives you the ability to target areas with with temporary fencing so then you can target an
area move on and and let it rest and then you can keep doing that in different spots and you can
adjust your paddock sizes adjust you know everything it's it's really versatile if you just get a good
perimeter and good water system going and then use temporary fencing in the inside. Are you moving
stock every day or? Yep we'll do a daily move on our cattle and sheep we do a daily move and then
I got some bulls that I move about every other day so and I got a set of rams that we're moving
every couple days too. One of the things you talked about was you are really kind of bootstrapping in
that you really want to keep your inputs low you don't want to have equipment you don't and all
that so yeah so basically it sounds your infrastructure consists of what? My infrastructure
is just my perimeter fence and my water system and I've got one fence down the center to hook
my poly braid onto and and that's it and I use a four-wheeler to run my temporary fencing around and
I move my portable water tank around and it's really pretty simple stuff I got very little
invested in the actual infrastructure of it you know the land was expensive but the actual
infrastructure I mean I've only got a few thousand dollars and all that and I don't have a tractor
that I'm out running implements with and I don't seed anything so all I do is I unroll hay and I
got an atv bale unroller I can pull a four-wheeler I use a little Suzuki Sidekick in the winter time
it's just like a side-by-side but way cheaper so the idea is to be low input the idea is keep the
money in your pocket and don't send it to town that's a big deal there's a guy out of South
Africa Mitchell Ian Mitchell Ennis and that's that's a big deal for him is keep your money in
your pocket don't send it to town in South Africa they don't have inputs so they have to manage their
way through things and I honestly feel like that's the way it should be here too but so I'm not I
haven't I don't I'm not I haven't done any programs or anything like that it's all been out of pocket
and just building on my own and using knowledge from other people that I've met along the way and
and trying to learn from them and learn for myself as well so are you doing any seeding
or is it all the seed bank seeding I'm going to try to use all animal impact and putting down
carbon with hay and then try to stimulate the latent seed bank and and try to get the grasses
to express themselves this year they can't turn the faucet off the rains it's flipped completely
last year I assume you were in the same situation we are down in this area and it must have been
challenging get talk a little bit about that yeah so between the months of May and September we got
four inches of rain and it was tough and in the sand it's tough and our grass stand is not good
we've got a lot of bare spots so it got hot and what we ended up doing is adjusted our management
we ended up just spreading them out and ended up just trying to get the tips off each paddock and
then keep moving them fast we're allowing the animals to harvest the energy that's there instead
of bringing in supplements or something like that and we were able to do that we didn't feed any hay
until the end of September last year and my neighbors were feeding hay in June so and the
management works it's it's all about the management we talked a little bit about that today that if
you can build that soil health yeah you're going to have those lean years a little bit like maybe
when your paychecks down one year but if you can put in any kind of investment in that to in those
good years then in the lean years it can really pay off it ends big time yep yep you can get that
carbon down there and the fertility down and then when we do get moisture boy it goes because the
pastures now are are really cranking good right now yeah yeah and that's that's what's just in
general you know what kind of observation must be so key for something like this when you are really
relying on that soil and you're not relying on inputs to kind of build its own self generating
capacity observation must be key what are some of the things you really look for i always looking at
the height of the grass stand always looking at the animal performance animal performance is
probably our number one factor that we're that we're trying to go for on our farm because we're
running a seed stock operation everything needs to look tip top so we're constantly looking to try
to improve that animal performance and to do that we need to have them in good forage all the time
and keep moving forward and to do that is you got to watch your stand and make sure you're not
overgrazing it make sure you got enough form each day you don't want to be limiting them
so they're losing weight you want to just you want to have them in the optimal situation and
if you're running single hot wires you want to keep them fed otherwise they're going to try to
jump out and then you'll be it'll be a wreck so we talked a little bit about context today
because i know a lot of people familiar with the it was originally i think the five rules of soil
building soil health and then it in recent years people have added the the term context why is that
important what what that's that's not a like the other things are like keep it covered integrate
livestock it's things that you can kind of picture but the context thing is a little bit more of a
mind uh type picture that i that i at least the way i look at it yeah well just like we all have
different fingerprints every farm is different and every piece of ground is different well it's going
to work on one farm isn't necessarily going to work on the other farm because your context might
be quite a bit different could be steep and heavy soil or it could be flat and sand i mean it's all
different that's why you got to be adaptive so you can adjust to your your context and your
environment so context is a really big deal and observing your context that's a huge deal and then
being adaptive to adjust to your context and make the management work yeah it must be the context
must well as we've seen change from seasons season to season oh yeah it's totally different
like this year's completely like last year i was thinking about de-stocking and now this year i've
got all the offspring of the animals i had last year and i'm thinking wow i can carry this many
animals on this piece of land because it's it is it's producing big time with the rain with the
multi-species grazing i think one of the things you talked about was sheep can make good cow pasture
and vice versa is part of it and part of it too is you just don't have the resources to manage two
different species on two different parts of the farm that it's a way to kind of save you labor
a little bit it's a big labor saver yeah i i have a full-time business on well i guess i say on the
side but it's it's my full-time gig you know i'm i'm out every day i've got five full-time employees
that i got to keep busy so my evenings are moving the cattle so i've got about three to i should say
more like two to four hours a day maybe if i'm lucky to work with these cattle so i've got to
kind of have it streamlined so i can get out there and get things done in an efficient manner so how
does that work do you you methodically look at well i'm going to put the sheep in first or
is it just all depend no they're all together so yeah they all run in one flurred is what we call
it and the dogs in there too so it's just one group of animals and i just move them every day
all together and they're they're all intermingled and it works really well i mean it's it's an idea
that was brought up when i first started looking into this stuff and i heard about it and i was
like well i'm going to try that so i did it and i've pretty much always had a flurred so i don't
really know much different so yeah so they graze differently right they do they go after different
species you know the the the sheep are a little better browsers so they'll go after more of the
woody stuff and more of the broadleaf weeds and things like that and the cattle are more like they
like the grass so they'll manage the grass a little better and they do more trampling and
so i mean they can improve the pasture for each other really very complimentary um i know context
is important and every farm is different but do you have any general advice to somebody who's maybe
in your situation who really just want to wants to bootstrap doesn't have a lot of doesn't have
great expensive land doesn't have a lot of equipment whatever but just really wants to
bootstrap it like you've been doing just concentrate on your management and observe
what's going on observe your pastures observe your animals and just focus on adjusting your
management if something's not working change it up if something is working keep doing that
and if you're seeing good results in your animal performance keep going if it's not working step
back look at it and adjust your management it's all about being adaptive to what is going on
that's why they call it adaptive grazing that's right that's right
for more on building soil health profitably see the podcast page for ear to the ground episode
344 at landstewardshipproject.org if you have comments or suggestions about this podcast
contact brian devore at bdevor at landstewardshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342
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