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My infrastructure is just my perimeter fence and my water system and I've got one fence down the

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center to hook my poly braid onto and that's it. I use a four-wheeler to run my temporary fencing

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around and I move my portable water tank around and it's really pretty simple stuff. The management

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works. It's all about the management.

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Welcome to the 344th installment of Ear to the Ground, the Land Stewardship Project's podcast

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on family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy.

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I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter. Okay, time for the word of the day,

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FLERD, which is spelled F-L-E-R-D. It's a combination of flock and herd. This describes a situation

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where a farming operation combines two different species such as cattle and sheep and grazes them

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on a piece of ground simultaneously. It can be a way of producing livestock that saves time and

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makes use of a limited number of acres. And since cattle and sheep graze differently, a FLERD can be

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an efficient way to get the most bang for your buck out of acres that are less than optimal

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production-wise. FLERD grazing is just one of the ways George Heller is building a livestock

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operation on worn out sandy soil near the town of Verndale, which, depending on whom you ask,

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isn't either the central part of Minnesota or is verging on being in the northern part of the state,

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whatever the geographical reference. Needless to say, George is farming some challenging ground.

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Besides grazing coarse, drought-prone soil, he's also dealing with a growing season that's only 120

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days long. In contrast, the growing season in southeastern Minnesota can be as long as roughly

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150 days or more. As George puts it, he's always planning for winter in his neck of the woods.

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But since buying a few bottle lambs five years ago, George has gradually built up an operation

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that's based on a UFLOC as well as a cow-calf herd of South Pole beef cattle. The ultimate

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goal of his operation, which is called West 80 South Poles, is to create a seed stock enterprise.

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He's particularly interested in how he can develop a line of South Pole cattle that are adapted to a

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northern climate. South Poles are usually associated with the hot, humid climate of the southern U.S.

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and are a small-framed animal that can do well on grass and are resistant to parasites. The

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farmer now utilizes adaptive rotational grazing on 290 owned and rented acres to support his

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cattle and sheep as well as to regenerate the depleted soil. The 43-year-old is building his

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enterprise literally from the ground up. Beyond fencing and watering systems as well as a four-wheeler,

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his infrastructure is minimal and he estimates that not counting the land and animal costs,

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he has just a few thousand dollars invested in the whole operation. By the way, speaking of land costs,

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because it's considered marginal soil, George has been able to access acres at a much lower price

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than his counterparts in prime corn and soybean country. The farmer runs a concrete boring

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business with five full-time employees, so time is a valuable commodity. Despite being limited in how

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many hours he can spend on the farm, George moves his animals daily, something that was particularly

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important in 2023 when it only rained four inches between May and September in his area. He feels

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techniques like this not only make good use of available forage and protect pastures from

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overgrazing but have built up the soil carbon on acres that, before he started farming them, were

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pretty much tapped out by years of hain. George traveled to southeastern Minnesota in June 2024

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to present at the Land Stewardship Project's Driftless Grazing School, which was hosted by

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livestock producers Jordan and Rochelle Meyer. The farmer from the North Country made it clear

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that he was in awe of the comparatively rich soil and decent climate the Myers and the other

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school participants were dealing with. Nevertheless, he had an important message for the grazers,

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no matter what their circumstances, success isn't about having the best soil and weather.

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Through careful observation and the ability to adapt and keep things in context, even the most

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challenging growing conditions can generate a successful livestock operation. As the grazing

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school wrapped up its second and final day, I chatted with George about his bootstrap livestock

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operation and how he's been able to gradually build a solid foundation under less than optimal

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conditions when it comes to soil, infrastructure, and time. So we just started out five years ago,

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we wanted to get some clean meat to eat and I got some younger kids and wanted to get something for

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them to do, so we went and got six bottle lambs and started with them and I kind of started

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watching YouTube and found a couple people on there and caught the bug a little, so then I wanted to

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push it a little further and bought some hair use and then I went and bought some rams in Missouri

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and then I bought some cows and I've just been kind of progressing from there and we ended up

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buying an 80-acre farm so we could graze on it because the land we had didn't have a lot of grass

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on it, mostly trees, and it's just been going pretty good and we ended up buying another 160-acre farm

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last fall, so right now land available to graze, we're at like 290 acres of grazable land. We've

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got 135 fenced right now and we're working on fencing the other 160. And what was the history

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of this land? Had it been cropped or? Hay fields, old hay fields. They're really depleted and

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we're in coarse sand so I mean if it's dry for a week or two it's pretty dry. That's a good point

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about the hay, you know people think of hay, well it's a perennial, so it's building the soil, but if

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you're taking hay off every year and you're not putting anything back it can deplete the soil pretty

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good. Right because carbon is the key to keeping the soil healthy and if you're removing all the

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carbon and not putting anything back you're just you're robbing your soil of nutrients and you're

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robbing your soil biology of its ability to improve things. Yeah so we're at this grazing school here

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we're here in southeast Minnesota, it's a lot different soil type, a lot different landscape.

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You're from Brainerd which you call central Minnesota, some people consider that northern,

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but it is it is north of here, but it is a different, it's like you said it's real sandy

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soil and I assume you have a shorter growing season, there's probably some other challenges.

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About 120 day growing season so I mean we got to do things quick and we got to plan, always planning

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for winter so basically as soon as the grass starts growing we're planning for the following winter

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managing our grasses so we can grow some stockpile the graze late into the season and

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trample carbon down and try to build fertility and the soil and it's been a little bit of a

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challenge because our ground is so poor but we've been making improvements been out wintering there

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feeding hay out in the winter time and that's been that's been making a lot of improvements.

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Are you so you finishing or what you're doing sheep and cattle right? Sheeping cattle right now

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I'm just on the beginning end of trying to build a cow calf operation I want to do a south pole

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seed stock operation I don't know you know what south pole cattle are they're up southern they're

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called the southern mama cow so they're really bred for down in the south and the really hot

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humid climates but they're super efficient on grass and they're good parasite resistance

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and they've got a small frame size and they do really well on our northern forages so what I'm

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trying to do is get a northern adaptive northern adapted south pole breed that I can sell seed

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stock off of and then same with the sheep too I want to get the sheep same thing sell seed stock

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off them mostly want to try to do that instead of trying to do grass-fed beef. So you're really

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going you're starting up from the ground up and so and everything from the soil you're not even

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able to come into a farm and say okay we've got a certain no no in fact Rochelle was remarking on

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a poor pasture that she had down the bottom and it's probably better than any piece of ground I've

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got so it's been a challenge but I mean I guess I'm up for it and that's where I'm at so. And

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was the land more a little more affordable since it's much more affordable there I mean you're

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talking three thousand dollars an acre where I'm at and I mean I think down here you're talking

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if you can pick up an acre for ten to fifteen thousand you're doing pretty good so

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you're it's quite a bit more affordable there they call what it's called marginal land mostly

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all deer hunting is the primary function of most of the land around where we live yeah. That makes

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you make a good point there because it's marginal land you were able to maybe as a beginning farmer

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I don't know how old how old are you? 43. I still consider that a beginning farmer anybody younger

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than me? I'm a beginning farmer. You are your beginning because you're young yeah okay yeah

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anyway you're able to get access to that land to land you wouldn't be able to get access to down

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here much more affordable downside to that is well it's really poor land there's a reason it's

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accessible or yeah that you're able to get access to it but because you are learning some of these

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soil health practices you're able to use utilize livestock and multi-species grazing you're able

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to add value to that land it sounds like. Absolutely yeah yeah we've been making quite a bit of

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improvements with the winter feeding and the running the cattle and we do a daily move daily

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rotation on the cattle to maximize our rest periods and maximize our fertility program so

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we're really working towards getting the land improved so we can get a bigger stand of grass

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and increase our stock density that's kind of a goal that's it the goal to be able to run I'd

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like to run 50 pairs and 100 head of ewes on one piece of land so that's kind of my goal.

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What are you doing now? We got about 120 sheep so 60 ewes and all their lambs so that's about

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100 120 140 sheep and then we've got about 30 head of cattle right now it's probably I don't know

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15 to 18 pairs right now. Can you take us through I know it's not typical but what would be if you

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come to a piece of ground that you're trying to improve and what would be the kind of the

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cycle that you would go through with kind of building that soil health? Cattle well you want

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to make sure you got a good perimeter fence that's number one second thing is your water system

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get your water system developed you get your perimeter fence and your water system developed

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that gives you the ability to target areas with with temporary fencing so then you can target an

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area move on and and let it rest and then you can keep doing that in different spots and you can

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adjust your paddock sizes adjust you know everything it's it's really versatile if you just get a good

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perimeter and good water system going and then use temporary fencing in the inside. Are you moving

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stock every day or? Yep we'll do a daily move on our cattle and sheep we do a daily move and then

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I got some bulls that I move about every other day so and I got a set of rams that we're moving

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every couple days too. One of the things you talked about was you are really kind of bootstrapping in

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that you really want to keep your inputs low you don't want to have equipment you don't and all

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that so yeah so basically it sounds your infrastructure consists of what? My infrastructure

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is just my perimeter fence and my water system and I've got one fence down the center to hook

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my poly braid onto and and that's it and I use a four-wheeler to run my temporary fencing around and

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I move my portable water tank around and it's really pretty simple stuff I got very little

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invested in the actual infrastructure of it you know the land was expensive but the actual

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infrastructure I mean I've only got a few thousand dollars and all that and I don't have a tractor

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that I'm out running implements with and I don't seed anything so all I do is I unroll hay and I

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got an atv bale unroller I can pull a four-wheeler I use a little Suzuki Sidekick in the winter time

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it's just like a side-by-side but way cheaper so the idea is to be low input the idea is keep the

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money in your pocket and don't send it to town that's a big deal there's a guy out of South

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Africa Mitchell Ian Mitchell Ennis and that's that's a big deal for him is keep your money in

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your pocket don't send it to town in South Africa they don't have inputs so they have to manage their

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way through things and I honestly feel like that's the way it should be here too but so I'm not I

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haven't I don't I'm not I haven't done any programs or anything like that it's all been out of pocket

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and just building on my own and using knowledge from other people that I've met along the way and

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and trying to learn from them and learn for myself as well so are you doing any seeding

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or is it all the seed bank seeding I'm going to try to use all animal impact and putting down

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carbon with hay and then try to stimulate the latent seed bank and and try to get the grasses

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to express themselves this year they can't turn the faucet off the rains it's flipped completely

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last year I assume you were in the same situation we are down in this area and it must have been

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challenging get talk a little bit about that yeah so between the months of May and September we got

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four inches of rain and it was tough and in the sand it's tough and our grass stand is not good

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we've got a lot of bare spots so it got hot and what we ended up doing is adjusted our management

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we ended up just spreading them out and ended up just trying to get the tips off each paddock and

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then keep moving them fast we're allowing the animals to harvest the energy that's there instead

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of bringing in supplements or something like that and we were able to do that we didn't feed any hay

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until the end of September last year and my neighbors were feeding hay in June so and the

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management works it's it's all about the management we talked a little bit about that today that if

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you can build that soil health yeah you're going to have those lean years a little bit like maybe

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when your paychecks down one year but if you can put in any kind of investment in that to in those

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good years then in the lean years it can really pay off it ends big time yep yep you can get that

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carbon down there and the fertility down and then when we do get moisture boy it goes because the

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pastures now are are really cranking good right now yeah yeah and that's that's what's just in

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general you know what kind of observation must be so key for something like this when you are really

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relying on that soil and you're not relying on inputs to kind of build its own self generating

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capacity observation must be key what are some of the things you really look for i always looking at

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the height of the grass stand always looking at the animal performance animal performance is

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probably our number one factor that we're that we're trying to go for on our farm because we're

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running a seed stock operation everything needs to look tip top so we're constantly looking to try

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to improve that animal performance and to do that we need to have them in good forage all the time

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and keep moving forward and to do that is you got to watch your stand and make sure you're not

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overgrazing it make sure you got enough form each day you don't want to be limiting them

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so they're losing weight you want to just you want to have them in the optimal situation and

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if you're running single hot wires you want to keep them fed otherwise they're going to try to

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jump out and then you'll be it'll be a wreck so we talked a little bit about context today

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because i know a lot of people familiar with the it was originally i think the five rules of soil

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building soil health and then it in recent years people have added the the term context why is that

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important what what that's that's not a like the other things are like keep it covered integrate

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livestock it's things that you can kind of picture but the context thing is a little bit more of a

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mind uh type picture that i that i at least the way i look at it yeah well just like we all have

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different fingerprints every farm is different and every piece of ground is different well it's going

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to work on one farm isn't necessarily going to work on the other farm because your context might

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be quite a bit different could be steep and heavy soil or it could be flat and sand i mean it's all

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different that's why you got to be adaptive so you can adjust to your your context and your

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environment so context is a really big deal and observing your context that's a huge deal and then

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being adaptive to adjust to your context and make the management work yeah it must be the context

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must well as we've seen change from seasons season to season oh yeah it's totally different

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like this year's completely like last year i was thinking about de-stocking and now this year i've

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got all the offspring of the animals i had last year and i'm thinking wow i can carry this many

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animals on this piece of land because it's it is it's producing big time with the rain with the

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multi-species grazing i think one of the things you talked about was sheep can make good cow pasture

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and vice versa is part of it and part of it too is you just don't have the resources to manage two

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different species on two different parts of the farm that it's a way to kind of save you labor

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a little bit it's a big labor saver yeah i i have a full-time business on well i guess i say on the

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side but it's it's my full-time gig you know i'm i'm out every day i've got five full-time employees

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that i got to keep busy so my evenings are moving the cattle so i've got about three to i should say

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more like two to four hours a day maybe if i'm lucky to work with these cattle so i've got to

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kind of have it streamlined so i can get out there and get things done in an efficient manner so how

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does that work do you you methodically look at well i'm going to put the sheep in first or

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is it just all depend no they're all together so yeah they all run in one flurred is what we call

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it and the dogs in there too so it's just one group of animals and i just move them every day

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all together and they're they're all intermingled and it works really well i mean it's it's an idea

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that was brought up when i first started looking into this stuff and i heard about it and i was

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like well i'm going to try that so i did it and i've pretty much always had a flurred so i don't

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really know much different so yeah so they graze differently right they do they go after different

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species you know the the the sheep are a little better browsers so they'll go after more of the

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woody stuff and more of the broadleaf weeds and things like that and the cattle are more like they

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like the grass so they'll manage the grass a little better and they do more trampling and

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so i mean they can improve the pasture for each other really very complimentary um i know context

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is important and every farm is different but do you have any general advice to somebody who's maybe

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in your situation who really just want to wants to bootstrap doesn't have a lot of doesn't have

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great expensive land doesn't have a lot of equipment whatever but just really wants to

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bootstrap it like you've been doing just concentrate on your management and observe

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what's going on observe your pastures observe your animals and just focus on adjusting your

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management if something's not working change it up if something is working keep doing that

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and if you're seeing good results in your animal performance keep going if it's not working step

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back look at it and adjust your management it's all about being adaptive to what is going on

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that's why they call it adaptive grazing that's right that's right

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for more on building soil health profitably see the podcast page for ear to the ground episode

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344 at landstewardshipproject.org if you have comments or suggestions about this podcast

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contact brian devore at bdevor at landstewardshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342

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by the way it helps us greatly if you can give ear to the ground a rating on whatever podcast

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if you like what you hear tell at least one person about lsp's ear to the ground thanks to

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laura borgendale a western minnesota musician for ear to the ground steam music and a special thank

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you to all of land stewardship projects members who make initiatives such as this podcast possible

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