1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,580 I hear a lot of situations where children come back to the farm, they want to try some 2 00:00:04,580 --> 00:00:09,040 of these practices, but they're hampered a little bit by that older generation not wanting 3 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:10,040 to try these changes. 4 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:13,740 Well, I feel a lot of the time I have to, Dad, we've got to slow down a little bit. 5 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:15,440 We've got to see if this will work first. 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,280 He said, let's walk before we run. 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,400 And so I have to keep telling myself that. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:35,120 Welcome to the 345th installment of Ear to the Ground, the Land Stewardship Project's 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:41,360 podcast on family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy. 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,680 I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter. 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:50,600 Back in 2019, when Northeastern Iowa farmer Rick Mott had knee surgery, he decided to 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,000 spend his recovery time learning a musical instrument. 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,880 Well, that didn't work out so well. 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,480 It turns out it's difficult to take up a task like that while lying on one's back. 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,360 But what he did spend his recovery time doing was reading Dirt to Soil, Gabe Brown's book 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:12,000 on how he used regenerative, soil-healthy practices to build ecological and economic 17 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,440 resilience on his North Dakota farm. 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,360 It turned out to be time well spent. 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,440 Rick was struck by Brown's use of diverse cover crop mixes and intense management of 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,640 livestock grazing rotations to build the soil's resilience and productivity. 21 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,140 Today, Rick and his son Damien are utilizing various regenerative practices on their hilly 22 00:01:32,140 --> 00:01:34,060 farm in Winnipeg County. 23 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:38,360 The farm had already been utilizing no-till and cover cropping as part of its row cropping 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,720 system, but after reading Brown's book, they began experimenting with highly diverse 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:48,680 cover crop mixes of summer annuals that consisted of as many as 12 species. 26 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,680 They've also adjusted the grazing rotations they utilize on permanent pasture as well 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,800 as in their stands of summer annuals. 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,320 They now move their cow-calf herd as often as once a day instead of weekly. 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,720 Most recently, the Mott's have added sheep to their enterprise mix, which they feel can 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,600 not only diversify their income stream, but help them better utilize the forage available 31 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,600 on some of their rougher ground, which is in the heart of the driftless region. 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,960 We're starting to see some significant payoffs. 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,200 For example, during the drought of 2023, a time when the Mott farm received less than 34 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,760 6 inches of rain between May and September, they were able to actually increase the productivity 35 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,720 of their grazing system, despite having less pasture than in previous years. 36 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,120 Damien and Rick recently attended LSP's Driftless Grazing School at the Jordan and 37 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,920 Rochelle Meyer Farm in Southeastern Minnesota. 38 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:42,920 During the two-day school, the Mott's, along with other participants, got first-hand experience 39 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:49,040 with fencing and watering systems, multi-species grazing, soil biology monitoring, and financial 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,040 planning. 41 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,600 Besides Rochelle and Jordan, grazers such as George Heller, Nicky Meyer, Clifford Johnson, 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,720 Zach Knudsen, and Jeff Juchain shared insights from their own operations. 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,520 The Mott's told me they came away from that event energized. 44 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:08,000 It's clear that they're open to trying out new ideas, something that can be particularly 45 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,560 important as a new generation enters the picture on a farm. 46 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Too often, the older generation can be a barrier to innovation and pushing the envelope a bit. 47 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,560 That's definitely not the case with this father-son duo. 48 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,120 After the grazing school, I chatted with Rick and Damien about their soil health journey, 49 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,540 what benefits they've seen so far, and how it's helped open up opportunities for a new 50 00:03:29,540 --> 00:03:31,160 farming generation. 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,960 Rick started our conversation talking about an epiphany he had while lying flat on his 52 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:36,960 back. 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,360 In 1993, we was our first year in no-till. 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,860 A few years after that, we started experimenting with cover crops, mostly rye. 55 00:03:44,860 --> 00:03:50,400 And then I went on to double species like turnips and milo, teff and sorghum. 56 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,200 I like to say I was looking for the holy grail. 57 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,840 And we kept playing around on and off with that. 58 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,720 We did soybeans and milo for several years in a row. 59 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,800 In 2019, I had knee surgery. 60 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,600 I was going to play an instrument or learn how on my back, but that was pretty tough. 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,640 So a neighbor gave me a book, Dirt to Soil. 62 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,800 And that just connected the dots. 63 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,680 That instead of two species, let's go eight, let's go 12, let's go more. 64 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,440 So since then, we've been going up to 12 species. 65 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:28,520 By summer annuals, we seeded half the ground down and rotated it with corn one year and 66 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,000 a multi-species mix a second, which we also graze. 67 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,200 And last year, we did some fall swath grazing with that. 68 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,240 You have a cow-calf herd or what do you have? 69 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,240 What's your livestock situation? 70 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,860 Yeah, so we have a cow-calf herd, feedlot. 71 00:04:42,860 --> 00:04:47,080 We used to have thousands of pigs up until a few years ago. 72 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,400 And last December, we added a small sheep herd, which we were quite pleased how that's 73 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,400 working out. 74 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:53,400 Do you infertile finish? 75 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,520 No, we were just custom finishing hogs, big confinement units, and don't miss them at 76 00:04:58,520 --> 00:04:59,520 all. 77 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:00,520 Yeah, what don't you miss about that? 78 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,640 The smell, the work, going in the barns. 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,160 I guess I'm just going to say it. 80 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,960 I felt like my lungs would cringe after my whole life going in and out of these barns. 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,120 And I don't experience that anymore. 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,520 We did buy a few pigs to raise out on grass for the freezer, and they were absolutely 83 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:18,520 delicious. 84 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,160 Well, it sounds like that really inspired you to read about Gabe Brown and what he was 85 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,160 doing. 86 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,520 And so you've tried to replicate that a little bit. 87 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,600 Is your ground, is it pretty hilly or is it kind of prime corn ground? 88 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,360 Or what's the layout there? 89 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Yeah, so we're in the driftless area of Iowa, very hilly. 90 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,240 We're about 200 feet elevation top to bottom. 91 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,980 We do have bottom grounds, it's a fantastic ground. 92 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:48,220 Our hilltops is fantastic, but in between it's a pretty rough ground. 93 00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:50,500 We have 300 acres of managed woodland. 94 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:51,660 We're working with that. 95 00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:55,040 So it's pretty steep context. 96 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,740 And so the grazing has been working out well for us. 97 00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:01,760 So what's the, right now, what's the mix of, how much percentage of it is crops and how 98 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,080 much is pasture or grazing? 99 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:10,400 Well, counting the summer annuals, we're right at about 500 acres, so half corn, half summer 100 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:11,400 annuals. 101 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,640 The summer annuals are rotated with rye and sometimes oats and peas in the spring. 102 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,960 Pasture, that's a bigger ask. 103 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:29,680 It's all over, I would roughly guess, maybe six, 700 acres of pasture. 104 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,640 How big of a cow herd do you have? 105 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:32,920 We're just shy of 400. 106 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,920 You know, it ebbs and flows with the years. 107 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,040 So you're about a thousand acres in total then? 108 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,040 Just a little bit more than that, but some of it's further away in CRP and that's coming 109 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,040 out. 110 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,560 We'll need to figure out how to get livestock down there. 111 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,320 All our beef is hormone free and it's for the European market. 112 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,800 So you've got somebody you're marketing through? 113 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:58,960 Yeah, so we have a third party verifier that certifies us every year and we ship it to 114 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,920 Omaha where it's processed and then shipped overseas. 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,520 Damien, I wanted to ask you, you said you're 33? 116 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,000 So when did you come back to the farm and I guess has some of these kind of diversifying 117 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,760 a little bit and getting into some of this regenerative practices, has that given you, 118 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:19,720 I guess, an entry into farming that maybe you wouldn't have had otherwise or has that 119 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,360 gotten you interested in it in maybe a way you hadn't been before? 120 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:28,900 Yeah, well, so I came back to the farm in 2015 and I was interested in coming back even 121 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:34,240 before we started really implementing this, going down the soil health journey, regenerative 122 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,600 egg practices. 123 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:42,480 But like dad says, in 2019 we seeded down, it was 18 acres to a summer annual grazing 124 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,080 mix and we really liked what we saw. 125 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,720 Well, in 2020, 2020 was the COVID year. 126 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,500 That spring we were looking at marketing grain below our cost of production. 127 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:58,200 So we really jumped all in, we're going to rotate all of our ground and a two year rotation 128 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:04,820 to this small grains summer annual mix and just really loved what we saw, allowed us 129 00:08:04,820 --> 00:08:10,440 to really do the grazing that we wanted to do, increase that carrying capacity of the 130 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,120 ground and just really loved what we saw soil health wise. 131 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,200 Can you talk a little bit about the soil health, what you saw as far as the soil changing a 132 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,200 little bit? 133 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:25,120 Learning every day about it, what we can do, increasing the organic matter that our soils 134 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,880 hold. 135 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:35,760 So the pasture ground that we did sort of before that 2019, 2020 period is we did weekly 136 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:44,160 rotations with the cattle and moving from that to like a daily rotation, just all kinds 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,940 of grass and we're able to do a lot of things grazing wise, like for instance, we're able 138 00:08:49,940 --> 00:08:55,400 to take cattle grazed all the way out into the January timeframe. 139 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:02,200 So really, I guess I'm most excited about the profitability that it gives to our operation. 140 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,720 Just that much less feed that we have to harvest and grow and that much that we're letting 141 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,240 the cattle and now these small ruminants do for us. 142 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,200 Oh, that's right, because you have the sheep now. 143 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,040 I don't know if we talked to see you've added sheep to the operation recently. 144 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,040 Is that correct? 145 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,960 Yes, this past December, we bought 47 bred ewes. 146 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,160 I was really excited. 147 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:31,560 I've been trying to convince dad for a number of years and he relented and I'm really excited. 148 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:36,200 I can really see the future that sheep will bring to our operation. 149 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,080 What is it about sheep that you like? 150 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,280 Well, it really does come back to profitability, but also the grazing interaction between the 151 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:44,760 cattle and the cows. 152 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,480 There's that saying that sheep make cattle pastures and cattle make sheep pastures. 153 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Well, I think grandpa back in the 1960s had some sheep on the operation and then he sold 154 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:56,280 them. 155 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,320 So we've been grazing just cattle for a long time. 156 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,640 It's time to introduce that multi-species back into the grazing. 157 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:10,160 So I've heard that phrase before too, that sheep can make pasture for cattle. 158 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,000 How is it, specifically what does that mean? 159 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,440 What is it that you're seeing where they're able to make that pasture for them? 160 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,980 Well, granted, I'm still learning and have only really been at this a couple months, 161 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:26,980 but just the way that the sheep more utilize the forbs, the cattle, the grasses allows 162 00:10:26,980 --> 00:10:34,080 those species not in competition with each other to grow and allows more perfect conditions 163 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:40,440 for like a more balanced approach and not letting any one type of grass or any one species 164 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,680 of legumes take over your pastures. 165 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:47,400 Do you actually mix them in the same paddock at the same time or are you doing it at different 166 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:48,400 times? 167 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,400 Not yet. 168 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,040 We have given it some consideration. 169 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:52,960 Right now we're managing it separately. 170 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:59,320 Ideally, about a 30 day window between grazing the cattle and the sheep, but it's something 171 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,520 we might explore further down the road. 172 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,000 What's your market for the sheep? 173 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:10,080 Right now we'll take the lambs to the sale barn, ideally late December, January timeframe 174 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,240 trying to market a 70 pound lamb at that time. 175 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:20,840 Is this kind of scenario you have set up now for you folks, is it providing on farm, full 176 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,840 on farm income for both of you or is there off farm income that has to kind of help you 177 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,600 guys out or what's the situation there? 178 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,520 No, it's taking care of both of us right now. 179 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,520 My wife does work off the farm, but she doesn't contribute to the bottom line of the farm. 180 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:37,520 Farms its own business. 181 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,520 It's been working well. 182 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,480 We've also coming off some pretty high corn prices. 183 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,640 The beef is fantastic right now. 184 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:49,920 Knock on wood that we can carry through this, but right now it's quite comfortable. 185 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,720 That's really good to hear because that's pretty rare these days. 186 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,360 So the livestock must really make that possible I would think. 187 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,440 Yeah, like I said the hormone free market has been a real treat to work with. 188 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:06,520 I guess I have an issue with USDA, maybe I shouldn't say that out loud, but why doesn't 189 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,280 the American consumer have that option? 190 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,000 Why does it have to go to a different country to be purchased that way? 191 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,480 That's a really good point. 192 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Did you have acres that you actually were in crops and you converted to now are in pasture? 193 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,880 Yeah, so that's been kind of an ongoing year over year. 194 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:32,080 The steeper ground, the smaller fields were just slowly seeded down one by one and anything 195 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:37,120 with shallow soil were seeded down to permanent pasture. 196 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,560 What was that process like? 197 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,960 Did you, that must, it's a little bit like, it's a pretty dramatic shift for something 198 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,800 that's been in row crops for years and years to then put into a perennial system. 199 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,480 Was there a certain practice or a certain kind of cycle you went through or scenario 200 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,900 you went through to do that and kind of what was the reaction of the soil? 201 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:57,040 So there was a little incentive. 202 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:02,720 So the first time we did this we did it on our own and working with our local NRCS we 203 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:09,520 found out that there was a program that would help with paying for the cover crops. 204 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,400 And so we went whole hog and we did half the acres. 205 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,920 And it was a little nervous watching the people drive by and wonder what the heck we're doing, 206 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,840 but it's been positive all the way. 207 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:30,440 As far as how the pasture soils have responded, I haven't actually sampled the pasture soils 208 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:36,480 but we are sampling the tall species cover crop mix and we've had a soil scientist out 209 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:43,480 several times who are taking microscopic samples and we have abundance of mycorrhizal fungi. 210 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:51,360 And so that was my aha moment that we have that and so we're trying to promote that fungus 211 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,800 and to bring on the nematodes and the protozoas. 212 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,800 I'm really interested in this last year. 213 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,280 So work, this is, things have switched. 214 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,800 We are, even in this field, we had a hard time doing this grazing school because it 215 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,120 was raining so much. 216 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,980 So the faucet has turned on after being off for a couple years and I know you were in 217 00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:10,920 drought situation as well. 218 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:16,840 But it sounds like you had, because of some different situations, you had less acres to 219 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,700 graze last year but because you were able to change your management, you were still 220 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,320 able to, sounds like increase your productivity. 221 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,320 And that's kind of what that was kind of being preached at this grazing school was you can, 222 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,560 there's no magic grass, there's no magic, you know, silver bullet, but there is good 223 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:36,560 grazing management. 224 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:41,040 It sounds like you were able to kind of take advantage of that a little bit last year. 225 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:47,080 Yeah, so we had a situation where we walked away from 200 acres of pasture that was about 226 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,400 eight miles away from our main operation. 227 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:56,080 And the story behind how we initially rented that is in 2020 we had this farmer who was 228 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,320 retiring or scaling back a little bit approached us about buying his herd and also renting 229 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,560 his pasture and we gave it some consideration and we actually initially turned him down 230 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,800 and he said, no, I'm not taking no as an answer. 231 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,320 I'd like to work with you guys. 232 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:17,640 So we signed a three year lease, purchased all of his cows and was a fantastic gentleman 233 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,440 to work with, some really nice pastures. 234 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:29,960 And as those years progressed and changing those daily rotations just on our own ground, 235 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,900 realized that we're sitting on a lot of grass and despite those drought years. 236 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:42,080 And one of the things that Meyers mentioned here at this grazing school was a three legged 237 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:48,060 stool and one of those, the legs of those stools being family, life interaction, quality 238 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:49,440 of life. 239 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,360 One of those legs is soil health and one is profitability. 240 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:58,040 And if you have any one of those legs get out of balance, you're going to tip over. 241 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:04,920 Well, I think we had our soil health and our quality of life legs not in balance on this 242 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:11,240 stool and getting that soil health leg taken care of on our own farm and realize what we 243 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,360 can do with our grazing allowed us to take those 80 cows that we were having on this 244 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:24,320 pasture, bring them back to our own operation, which gives us 200 less acres we have to maintain 245 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,960 and the fences that go along with it and sort of improve that quality of life and family 246 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,600 leg of that stool as well. 247 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,920 Did you do some different kinds of rotations on that? 248 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,000 Because you were kind of getting putting more cattle on less acres. 249 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,440 So we did you have to change some of your rotations to adjust to that? 250 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,360 Mainly just combining those those herds, more managed, heavily intensive grazing, and then 251 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:54,720 also using the summer annual species and stockpiled forages grazing as well allowed us to bring 252 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:02,840 those 80 head end with really mean there was some impact, but not as much as I anticipated. 253 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,720 Well, that must have been a little scary. 254 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,340 Yeah, so I think daily moves really helped. 255 00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:14,240 So we were probably, I don't know, three to five day moves before and we've made a conscious 256 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,840 choice to try and hit the daily move. 257 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:23,120 To be honest, maybe we're at 1.5 daily moves, but I think that's made a huge difference. 258 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:30,160 Last year, the state's whole con was out and we had deep green grass growing and right 259 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,720 across the road, it was brown neighbors ground. 260 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,440 So yeah, there was definitely it was visual last year. 261 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,120 Do you think some of that is just over the years, being able to build that organic matter 262 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:48,880 and to the point where it could get through a really dry period like that you kind of 263 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,040 you kind of invested in that in that bank a little bit? 264 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,760 Yeah, definitely. 265 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,840 Also the multiple species. 266 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:01,120 So I guess for instance, growing oats and peas together, I don't have proof of this, 267 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,120 I haven't dug it up. 268 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,840 But what I'm hearing is the roots go four times deeper than each species by itself. 269 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,480 And so with the diversity in the pastures, I think, you know, what you said, I think 270 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,200 our soil health has been rising and everything is becoming more resilient. 271 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,680 Give me some context of what the situation was like for you last year. 272 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,960 Like how much rain did you get during that prime growing season? 273 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,960 Do you remember what the how parched you really were? 274 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,840 We had four inches Mother's Day weekend. 275 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,500 Okay, three and a half. 276 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:38,280 And then after that, boy, it was not much at all. 277 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,000 One point seven inches until was it September sometime. 278 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,000 That's it. 279 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,560 Basically less than six inches the whole growing season. 280 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:47,560 Correct. 281 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,000 You still were able to have that it was a pretty you had some really green forage and 282 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,000 pretty established. 283 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:57,760 Yeah, it's almost embarrassing to admit that we had grass left over in the fall. 284 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,320 Our intention was to do more late season winter grazing on it. 285 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,880 But we also tried to control the mud. 286 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,400 So December was quite muddy for us. 287 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,120 We did our swaths grazing December 26 to about the end of January. 288 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:17,800 That's when we had the deep snow and 20 below zero weather. 289 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,400 And then we were back in the mud again. 290 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,400 So we didn't want to tear up our pasture. 291 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,000 So they we left them out. 292 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,340 That must be if you're able to get through a year like that. 293 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:28,360 And now we're having plenty of rain. 294 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,720 I will say I was talking to a lot of course, I was talking to all the grazers here at the 295 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:32,720 grazing school. 296 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,400 Nobody was super complaining about the rain. 297 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,360 You know, crop farmers are in a whole different situation if it's all you're doing is crops. 298 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:42,200 I saw some pretty flooded fields on the way down here. 299 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,600 But it sounds like it's almost a win win situation because in a year where we're getting so much 300 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:54,080 rain, you are able to put more into that bank, so to speak, you know, for future years when 301 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,080 things aren't so good. 302 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,560 And that last year was proof, really proof for you guys. 303 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,560 Yes. 304 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:05,240 And part of it is we're stuck in our pasture in not in anticipation of these drought events. 305 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,880 But if they happen with these regenerative practices, we're able to increase that carrying 306 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:16,920 capacity even on these drought years where you if you plan for those drought years, then 307 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,720 that's your baseline and everything is extra than that, I guess. 308 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,700 Yeah, you've seen how bad it can get. 309 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:24,700 That's pretty bad. 310 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,000 Six inches, less than six inches during growing season. 311 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,320 You see it, they can get that bad and you can still come out ahead. 312 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,600 That's something that you're not always planning on getting 32 inches or whatever it is every 313 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,600 year. 314 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:36,600 No, every year is different. 315 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,200 Every year has its challenges. 316 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,800 And we learned that on a year with that six inches of rain during the growing season is 317 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,400 through these practices, daily moves, incorporating some summer annuals into our mix, we can really 318 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,400 do a lot with our grazing and not be impacted by the drought conditions. 319 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,960 When you do something like this, did you guys get any ideas for some some things you'd like 320 00:20:58,960 --> 00:20:59,960 to try? 321 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:04,360 It sounds like maybe multi species grazing is something that you're diving a little bit 322 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:10,000 more into or did you get any other ideas that was a big focus today was multi the past couple 323 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,720 days was multi species grazing, but also putting things in context was a big one. 324 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,880 Sounds like that's something you guys think about a lot. 325 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,940 Yeah, I got dad convinced to get some sheep. 326 00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:22,840 Now I'm trying to get them to buy some goats. 327 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,560 So how's that going? 328 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,560 What do you think? 329 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,040 I would like to try it. 330 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,880 So I said we have 300 acres of managed woodland and I think goats could really do some wonders 331 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,240 in there and multiflora rose and honey honeysuckle. 332 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,240 Well it's really interesting what the Myers have done with that. 333 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,640 And one of the things that really struck me is they talk about how the goats transport 334 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,360 biology from the woods into the pastures a little bit. 335 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:50,000 Yeah, and even the sheep we have are will eat the same things as goat, they just won't 336 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,160 go high. 337 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,440 And so we're starting to see that I'm just impressed with the really light touch they 338 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,520 have on the ground itself. 339 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,120 You know, you can run quite a few head over it and they're not impacting it like cattle 340 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:04,120 do. 341 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:08,040 I just have to say one more thing with the excessive rain this year, it sure feels good 342 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,040 to have your ground seated down. 343 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,720 It's a good feeling and you know that it's going to turn green when the sun comes back 344 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,520 out, you know, it's great. 345 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,120 Yeah, that is a must be a cool feeling. 346 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,440 You're hearing it all night and you're like, if you're a corn farmer on low land, you're 347 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:25,880 like, oh man, what's it going to look like? 348 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,240 But you're like, well, I got it seated down and this is going to turn green. 349 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:35,160 And you know, we do have some rural crop, but we're pretty careful with how we manage 350 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:40,120 that and it is no tell, but we don't farm steep ground anymore. 351 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:44,420 Going back to the goats, you know what, the one thing I learned at this was if your fence 352 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:46,360 can hold water, it can hold a goat. 353 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,080 So you just got to get one of those fences that does that and you'll be all right. 354 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,800 Just one last thing on the grazing school. 355 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,600 I mean, did you, this was this valuable for you guys to connect with? 356 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:00,840 We had people from a pretty wide area, a lot of people from this area from Northeast Iowa, 357 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,440 Southeast Minnesota, Southwest Wisconsin, but also from a little bit. 358 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,740 I know George Heller, he, that was interesting to see what the situation he's working with 359 00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:13,600 was very sandy soil, very poor fertility. 360 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,080 You know, his stocking rates have to be much less that kind of thing. 361 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,680 But was, was that of value to you guys to kind of get in the mix and see what a lot 362 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,120 of other people were thinking? 363 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,520 Oh, absolutely. 364 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:29,800 Coming to an event like this, I got pages of notes filled in my notebook, but also even 365 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,920 more valuable than that is the connections that you make at these events. 366 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,880 It's good to have people that are trying the same practices that are you, that you're doing 367 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,480 on your farm and realizing you can learn from each other's mistakes and successes. 368 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,040 You don't have to learn and try everything yourself. 369 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,240 Yeah, great group of people. 370 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,720 People that come to events like this really want to do what's right for the land. 371 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,040 And I can't say good enough things about the people here. 372 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Good connections. 373 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,000 And I'm really excited about George Heller. 374 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,880 He's having a field day this fall. 375 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:09,200 I'd really like to go because what he's doing on that kind of land is proof that it can 376 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,640 happen anywhere in the world. 377 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,460 And that story needs to be spread. 378 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:17,560 We can reverse this desertification that's going on. 379 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,920 And that excites me. 380 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,040 It is exciting what he's working with there. 381 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,840 I mean, it's one thing if somebody's just got everything going good, but he's been able 382 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,640 to make a go of it and some sounds like some pretty rugged country there. 383 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,800 And the other speakers here too have been fantastic. 384 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,880 I just impressed all the way around. 385 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,200 So Rick, how old are you? 386 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,200 57. 387 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,200 57. 388 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,960 So this must be really satisfying to have the next generation come back to the farm. 389 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,080 And you guys are not only kind of doing, you're not only kind of making a go of it, but you're 390 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,360 able to kind of be very innovative. 391 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,480 And I don't know, it's neat to see that you're coming to something like this. 392 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,120 You're still both learning. 393 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,600 You know, you guys are able to learn together. 394 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,600 This must be kind of fun for you. 395 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:03,840 What's shocking is at my age, I can still learn. 396 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:10,760 But I'm blessed to have a family that wants to learn, a family member that is part of 397 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,480 this and that's truly blessed that way. 398 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,980 Damien, is that, I mean, is it kind of fun for you? 399 00:25:15,980 --> 00:25:16,980 So I'm super blessed. 400 00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:20,800 I hear a lot of situations where children come back to the farm. 401 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,520 They want to try some of these practices, but they're hampered a little bit by that 402 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,120 older generation not wanting to try these changes. 403 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:31,000 Well, I feel a lot of the time I have to, Dad, we got to slow down a little bit. 404 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,920 We got to see if this will work first. 405 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,600 So I'm very blessed that Dad's willing to try these new things. 406 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:38,600 You got him to do sheep. 407 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,080 I think maybe the world is wide open for you. 408 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,800 Like I said, we're trying the goats next. 409 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,000 Get that fence. 410 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,840 He said, let's walk before we run. 411 00:25:48,840 --> 00:26:01,480 And so I have to keep telling myself that. 412 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,520 For more on building soil health profitably, see the podcast page for Ear to the Ground 413 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,720 episode 345 at landstewardshipproject.org. 414 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:16,320 There, you'll also find links to other podcasts in our Driftless Grazing School series. 415 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,980 If you have comments or suggestions about this podcast, contact Brian DeVore at bdevor 416 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:28,180 at landstewardshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342. 417 00:26:28,180 --> 00:26:32,160 By the way, it helps us greatly if you can give Ear to the Ground a rating on whatever 418 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,800 podcast platform you utilize. 419 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,320 And word of mouth is the best way to spread the news about our podcast. 420 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,560 If you like what you hear, tell at least one person about LSP's Ear to the Ground. 421 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,380 Thanks to Laura Borgendel, a Western Minnesota musician for Ear to the Ground's theme music. 422 00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:53,160 And a special thank you to all of Land Stewardship Project's members who make initiatives such 423 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,280 as this podcast possible. 424 00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:02,480 If you're not a member, visit landstewardshipproject.org to learn how you can support LSP. 425 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,480 Thanks for listening. 426 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:10,480 And we'll see you next time.