1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,500 We're building soil hills through the cows, so the cows are essentially working for us, 2 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:08,880 adding the biology to the soil as we feed what we grow on that soil. 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,880 So the only thing at the end of the day we're really taking off the soil is a pound of beef 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:18,560 versus a bunch of hay or corn and taking all the organic matter from it. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,600 We're basically using the sun and rain. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,680 I personally don't buy much fertilizer. 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,960 If I can fix something with a bale of hay, a cow, or a bag of seed, I'd rather do that 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,080 than fertilizer and hauling a bunch of costly inputs in. 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,920 Actually at the end of the year we do taxes now. 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,200 It's not quite as easy to show a loss as it used to be. 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:43,200 So we're coming out of a new problem there, but we'll be able to handle that one. 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:58,560 Welcome to the 350th installment of Ear to the Ground, the Land Stewardship Project's 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,680 podcast on family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy. 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,000 I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter. 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,080 Langdon Column farms in a part of west central Minnesota where the soil starts to thin out 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,120 to the point where it's not unheard of to hit gravel when digging down just a bit past 17 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,920 the surface. 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,500 But that hasn't prevented farmers from planting corn and soybeans in the region. 19 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:27,040 And Langdon, who owns and operates Column family cattle near the community of Eagle 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,660 Bend, does raise row crops himself. 21 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:35,240 But the former dairy farmer would prefer to produce beef cattle on forages, which he has 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,200 done for the past several years. 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,680 Langdon has long rotationally grazed his black angus cow calf herd, but a few years ago he 24 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,880 learned that adjusting the manner in which those animals are rotated can pay big dividends 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:53,200 in terms of building soil health, which in turn pays off by creating a more productive 26 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,200 herd. 27 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,760 Working with Jonathan Kilpatrick and Kent Solberg, grazing and soil health experts with 28 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:04,440 the Sustainable Farming Association, Langdon increased his stocking density and adjusted 29 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:09,880 the sizes of his paddocks, which are growing permanent pasture as well as annual cover 30 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,080 crops. 31 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:17,440 It turns out such tweaks to a rotation can, in a sense, increase the size of a farm, without 32 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,320 actually adding additional acres. 33 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,480 It's like adding vertical productivity via the soil biome. 34 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,400 It's paid off. 35 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,800 Not only is his herd more productive in the short term, but Langdon feels his soil's 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,280 long-term resiliency has improved as well. 37 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,720 That was proven the past two growing seasons. 38 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,880 Saw his region go from extreme drought to flood conditions that were so bad his cattle 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,040 found themselves stranded on opposite sides of running water at one point. 40 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:50,200 I saw the results of this soil building first-hand during a mid-September field day held at the 41 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,520 Colum Farm. 42 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,440 The event was sponsored by Match Made in Heaven Livestock Plus Crops, which is an initiative 43 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,640 that's helping show ways crops and livestock can be integrated in a profitable and sustainable 44 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:02,880 manner. 45 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,840 Match Made in Heaven is a six-state collaboration involving 50-plus groups, including the Land 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,120 Stewardship Project. 47 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,640 Also participating in the field day were the SFA's Jonathan Kilpatrick and Jane Jewett 48 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:19,100 of the Minnesota Institute for Sustainable Agriculture. 49 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:23,640 During the field day, Jonathan and Langdon dug up soil samples to show how worn-out crop 50 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:29,160 fields have been revitalized after just a few years of exposure to a grazing regime 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,920 that involves a diversity of plants and careful movement of cattle that spreads manure and 52 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,400 urine evenly across the landscape, helping build biology. 53 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,760 Particularly impressive was a field that had formerly grown a stand of fertility-sapping 54 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:48,040 hybrid poplar trees, but which Langdon is bringing back to life utilizing cover cropping 55 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,980 and animal impact. 56 00:03:49,980 --> 00:03:54,340 After the field day, Langdon, Jonathan, and I sat down in a back room of the nearby Rose 57 00:03:54,340 --> 00:04:00,200 City Bar and Grill to talk about how integrating livestock into crop ground can help revitalize 58 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,640 the soil, as well as a farm's bank account. 59 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,000 Langdon started our conversation talking about how adjusting the carrying capacity in his 60 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,800 paddocks helped up the farm's rotational grazing game. 61 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:19,320 I bought the original farm in 2007, 150 acres, and started out with, I believe I bought seven 62 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:25,800 cows the first year, and from there I bought all the way up to around 15, and then from 63 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:32,040 that I've built a herd as, I believe at the highest point we've had 65 pairs. 64 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:37,920 Over the years I've added a 40 acres and then at least a couple other farms at 100, 120 65 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:38,920 acres apiece. 66 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:44,340 Basically, concentration has always been on raising beef cattle and having the healthiest 67 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:45,580 pastures we can. 68 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:50,040 I grew up conventional dairy farming with my father, I guess my heart was always in 69 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,120 the beef cows and we parted ways, so from there we've just done it my own way, always 70 00:04:54,120 --> 00:05:01,280 rotated some, and I believe for going on 10 years now we've started to focus on more rotational 71 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,800 grazing and getting more out of each acre rather than just more land all the time. 72 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:11,000 Yeah, and one of the things you mentioned was you had, a couple years ago, I think maybe, 73 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,880 I don't know, three or so years ago, you really kind of upped your game a little bit with 74 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,240 the rotations where you started doing some different things, I think doing more movements, 75 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,240 that type of thing? 76 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:26,280 I had always rotated to some degree, my 150 acres used to be split up in roughly three 77 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:32,760 different pastures and then from there about six years ago we split it up into 15 different 78 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,520 sections and had rotations on two to three days in each section. 79 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:45,120 Then I ran into a fellow from sustainable farming named Kent Sahlberg and he and Jonathan 80 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,000 quizzed me on stocking density and that didn't make a lot of sense to me because my pastures 81 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,920 were always the same size and I wasn't going to buy and sell cows to change stocking densities, 82 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,440 well then they introduced me to the polywire and varying the size of the paddocks with 83 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,800 the same number of cows and really in the last two years I've seen tremendous difference 84 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,600 in the varying stocking densities depending on your situation and your goals and I've 85 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,400 actually been able to achieve and I can see the potential to really double the carrying 86 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,280 capacity versus where I was three or four years ago just to a more standard rotation 87 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:22,560 system. 88 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,080 I think that's a really good point and Jonathan, that's one thing, you had a really nice presentation 89 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:34,240 on that idea of what carrying capacity is, which I think would maybe be a good reminder 90 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,080 for folks what is carrying capacity but also if you could talk a little bit about when 91 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,160 you are doubling that carrying capacity it's like you're doubling the size of your farm 92 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,160 in a way. 93 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,160 Can you talk a little bit about that? 94 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,160 I think that's a really important piece people don't think about because land is expensive 95 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:55,320 and it's much easier to add value to that land than to try to get more land. 96 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,240 It's a really good point too, the carrying capacity and it's just, I guess the way I 97 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,560 define it is it's what your land can carry as far as livestock and obviously that changes 98 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,040 every single year but the example I like to use is for example like an F-150 or a half 99 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,400 ton truck and it only has so much capacity as far as what it can tow and what it can 100 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,880 pull. 101 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,480 You go up to an F-350 or a one ton truck and you can really do a lot more hauling and a 102 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,880 lot more towing so the carrying capacity of those trucks is very different and that's 103 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,120 kind of the same way with rotational grazing and most people when they go to what Langdon 104 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:36,640 just talked about is when they start rotationally grazing or doing more frequent moves like 105 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,360 get up to once a day moves most people are able to double the carrying capacity and the 106 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,720 reason for that is because grass that's not being over grazed, if the cattle are going 107 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,560 back and nipping off little shoots and stuff that's slowing the grass growth and recovery 108 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,640 back, slowing that down so you're not getting as much forage growth and production so really 109 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,560 in the long run what you're achieving is more forage production per acre which allows you 110 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,480 to carry more cows or have more cows per acre. 111 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:08,920 Yeah and it's that whole idea of kind of using soil health to add value to that land. 112 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,960 I hope this isn't offending you Langdon, this isn't the best soil in the world. 113 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,240 I think that's something you know, it's sandy and you said in one of the fields we looked 114 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:23,280 at this evening you don't go too far down you hit gravel so you are able to add value 115 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,840 to that land by building soil health it sounds like. 116 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,480 Correct, we're building soil health through the cows so the cows are essentially working 117 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:37,580 for us adding the biology to the soil as we feed what we grow on that soil so the only 118 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:42,760 thing at the end of the day we're really taking off the soil is a pound of beef versus you 119 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,160 know a bunch of hay or corn and taking all the organic matter from it. 120 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,060 We're basically using the sun and rain and I personally don't buy much fertilizer if 121 00:08:52,060 --> 00:08:56,920 I can fix something with a bale of hay, a cow or a bag of seed I'd rather do that than 122 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,680 fertilizer and hauling a bunch of costly inputs in. 123 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,560 Jonathan one other thing we were standing next to a stand of, correct me if I'm wrong 124 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:10,040 it was a stand of Japanese millet, it was a seven way mix but the Japanese millet was 125 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,960 dominating because it's a wet year and they like wet weather. 126 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:20,280 But you said, you kind of said here's a quiz what are the principles of soil health and 127 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,640 I think it'd be good if you go through those principles but then also you said we're kind 128 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,520 of seeing this is the living proof right here we're seeing all of those principles of soil 129 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,560 health being covered right now can you describe why we were seeing those? 130 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:36,480 I first describe what they are but then describe why we were seeing all those covered by Langdon's 131 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:37,480 land there. 132 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,200 Yeah so the six soil health principles are minimize disturbance and that's both chemical 133 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,200 and physical disturbance to the soil with a plow. 134 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:52,240 It would be diversity so increase the diversity of species of plants on the soil and that 135 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,800 also increases the diversity of wildlife and insects and birds and all that. 136 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,280 The other thing is armor on the soil very important to keep the soil covered. 137 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,280 Integrating of livestock, the integration of livestock is also another key and the living 138 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:06,480 root. 139 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,880 Living root is also key keeping the living root in the soil as long as possible and then 140 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,720 doing all these things in the context of your operation which for every operation is very 141 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,600 different Langdon's context is different than some of the other farmers that I work with 142 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,640 and yeah so when we were standing there where the millet there you mean we had good soil 143 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,040 cover we were getting a lot of armor put back down the soil I mean Langdon was grazing cattle 144 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,040 at about a million to a million and a half pounds per acre so the amount of trample that 145 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,140 we were getting we weren't getting super high utilization rates on the millet but that's 146 00:10:35,140 --> 00:10:39,080 okay because we're recovering the soil we're increasing soil health cows were getting the 147 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,920 best really of that millet anyhow. 148 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,400 We had you know diversity of species on the soil surface we had living root with plants 149 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,880 actively growing we had livestock on the soil we were doing it within the context I mean 150 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,960 we weren't disturbing the soil I mean we weren't plowing we weren't using chemical or anything 151 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,400 so all six soil health principles were in action in front of us so yeah really cool 152 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,560 to see that and that's typically what you'll see you know most grazing operations and it's 153 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:06,900 kind of an interesting joke that some of us SFA staff have is that you know most people 154 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:12,720 that go down this regenerative journey so to speak they end up becoming grazers because 155 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,840 of the soil health principles all being in action when you're grazing and if you look 156 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,720 back through civilization like when you start annual cropping that's really where the downfall 157 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,080 that civilization begins is when they start destroying the soils through annual cropping 158 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,040 I mean we see that the downfall of Rome and a lot of these other great empires throughout 159 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,240 throughout the history so yeah I mean you look at these what these soils would have 160 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:39,600 been 200 years ago they would have been native prairies so we're closest I mean we can't 161 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,240 replicate that perfectly but we are coming as close as we possibly can with what the 162 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,320 tools we have available to us and it's as proof positive of that after we looked at 163 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,920 the summer annuals that you're grazing there we went over to a permanent pasture that you've 164 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:59,320 established Langdon and you correct me if I'm wrong but it was in row crops for several 165 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:05,880 years and you I don't know how many years ago was it you okay about six years ago you 166 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,600 seeded that down to pasture Jonathan dug up some soil samples and it looked really good 167 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,480 and yeah so you haven't had a decent rain since the first week in August boy that pasture 168 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:21,120 looked great it was really flourishing green and the soil I just felt like it had some 169 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,120 latent moisture in it it really was working well can you talk a little bit about how long 170 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,880 that took to kind of get to that point after it being in row crops for all those years 171 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,840 and kind of what you're seeing with the soil a little bit and I took over the field it 172 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,480 had been corn and bean rotation for years basically rented to the neighbor and I continued 173 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,720 renting to the neighbor shortly after I'd bought the place for a source of income and 174 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,800 and basically just good relations but when I started getting more cows I decided I wanted 175 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:56,960 to turn that field into a pasture so I went to the NRCS office and they suggested a mix 176 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:02,280 which turned out to be I didn't know what I was buying but about it seeded it and first 177 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,400 year just made hay and let the roots get rooted down and established and from there started 178 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:12,240 grazing it and haying it once in a while but then I would say about three years ago when 179 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:18,080 I got into the more intensively rotating the cows I noticed the pasture would be you know 180 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,360 ready to graze again much quicker than ever when the dry times came the grass still seems 181 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:28,520 to grow and I did not know why we've been through three years of drought and that pasture 182 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:34,760 that was seeded down and grazed conservatively and always left enough for regrowth the pasture 183 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,640 seems to hold out throughout the year no matter what and now when you dig down in the soil 184 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,880 you do see a lot of earthworms it smells good and just you know standing in the pasture 185 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,680 is hard to find a patch of dirt anywhere and that's this year's been quite the opposite 186 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,520 we've had several rains three plus inches and though it's been muddy and the cows have 187 00:13:54,520 --> 00:14:00,400 pugged it up quite a bit the pasture just continuously regenerates itself yeah you said 188 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,600 it had 40 days of rest and it looked great really dead Jonathan we've had three years 189 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:12,920 in most areas of really dry weather now we've had the faucet we can't turn it off you must 190 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:18,920 see you must get around and see folks who are using good grazing systems and regenerative 191 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,000 grazing systems to build their soil health and you're seeing now the two extremes of 192 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:28,360 the weather cycle are they able to build that soil to the point where it is able to be resilient 193 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,280 when it's in drought conditions and when we're having this you know really I think we're 194 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,280 on track to maybe be one of the wettest years that we've ever had in your recorded history 195 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,920 here in Minnesota are you seeing where were they are able to build that soil resilience 196 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:47,880 so it is able to weather those pardon the pun weather those real extremes yeah I would 197 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:53,440 say in general like you know the soil health is is a journey and so I don't even know 198 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,720 I don't think anybody really has an idea of what what the top is or if there even is like 199 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,720 a top as far as soil health goes you know we're dealing with massively degraded systems 200 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,160 I will say that you know instituting a lot of these practices and the principles of soil 201 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:12,120 health does definitely increase resilience but we don't really know at what point in 202 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,240 the journey these folks are on whether they're in you know they're beginning stages but yeah 203 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,040 to answer your question I'm kind of long way around to get to the answer but yeah I would 204 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:25,380 say in general for sure but also you know it involves like good management decisions 205 00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:29,280 when you do have a drought and like de-stocking at the right time or getting cows off and 206 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,320 increasing that recovery period but you know I would say you can have really good soil 207 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,960 and when you have a wet season you're just having a wet season too so it's not I don't 208 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:43,040 want to like pretend like it's just a magic magic fairy dust it does help absolutely hundred 209 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,680 percent the farms that are doing this and turning into print you know going to perennial 210 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,800 pastures or whatever just doing soil health practice are definitely able to weather these 211 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,480 these extremes that we've had the last couple years Langdon you joked a little bit that 212 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:03,560 you bought drought insurance this year and the salesman is probably off into Haiti so 213 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,920 you never know but you know I feel like some of your insurance is really building that 214 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,120 soil health in the long term a little bit I don't know if that's the way you look at 215 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,120 it correct I figured three years in a row of drought if I had a force when I needed 216 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,280 a little money to buy hay so I went ahead and bought drought insurance but it seemed 217 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,000 like the rain turned on and it was a whole different challenge there wasn't a place I 218 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,240 could put the cows without mud in fact at one point my entire farm was separated by 219 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,440 the creek running through and some calves were on one side of the creek and the others 220 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:39,000 cows their mom was on the other side and six feet deep so there's been some challenging 221 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,600 days this year but too much water has definitely been a problem but I have yet to complain 222 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,680 about it because I'll always take more water than less I will say that I am glad that I've 223 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:56,120 been on this journey with building the pastures up because I feel like my pastures have actually 224 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,360 weathered the storm much better than they would have ten years ago I'm really interested 225 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,720 in anybody who's kind of transitioning row crops into pasture and grazing that type of 226 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:11,400 thing but you took us to something I've never seen before it was a former poplar plantation 227 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,920 I guess can you describe the history of that piece of ground I think it was in the trees 228 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,840 were actually cut five years ago and you had to do some pretty extreme stuff to that but 229 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,280 you're trying to kind of it's an interesting it's on a different scale trying to you know 230 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,840 it's one thing to transition a corn soybean field into grazing but this is a whole different 231 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:37,040 ballgame with this poplar stand that was across the road from your farm there in this area 232 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:42,560 I would say about 30 years ago there was an outfit about several thousand acres something 233 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,680 to the two and a ten or twelve thousand acres and put into hybrid poplar trees for paper 234 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,520 production but their plan did not work out in a lot of this land farmers are removing 235 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:59,240 the trees and going back into farming the particular piece that used to be part of my 236 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:04,400 farm I purchased it back with the trees standing on it and didn't really know what I was going 237 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,120 to do with it but the journey started we had the trees cut off and all the brush and stumps 238 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:15,040 were left so for a few years I tried to use the cows they could get around the field step 239 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,840 over the tree limbs and whatnot you could not drive a four-wheeler across the 40 acres 240 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,120 so for a few years I just grazed it whenever there was standing water in the field the 241 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,600 cows could drink and then would pull them off until there was another opportunity to 242 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,840 graze something the land was pretty poor as you can imagine tree roots had dug pretty 243 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,320 deep and pulled most of the nutrients out and left it in a state of some pretty rough 244 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:43,760 grass and obviously the tree limbs everywhere but a few years of grazing and then I basically 245 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,720 bought a cheap tractor and a disc and beat it across the top of the stumps and seeded 246 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:55,360 down about a I think it was a 15-way mix and what took off happened to be the buckwheat 247 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:00,920 sorghum sudan grass and some soybean and stuff like that and that began the process gave 248 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,840 the cows a lot of biomass to eat and start the process of rotting down the stumps and 249 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:13,000 tree limbs and so after really only three years has become a field that I could conceivably 250 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:18,520 plant corn in next year and thanks to the cows doing most of the work though I did pick 251 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,520 a lot of sticks up. 252 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:25,000 You did a little bit of the work and let's be clear you're thinking about planting corn 253 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,640 but you're not you're going to graze it right? 254 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:33,800 Correct I'll use that corn as a basically a deep of the winter feed typically around 255 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:38,240 here it's not uncommon to have one or two feet of snow on the ground so the corncubs 256 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,060 will be above the ground and basically I'll give the cows a few rows of corn a day throughout 257 00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:48,000 the winter time and supplement with a bale of hay here and there and that way everything 258 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,800 that field grows is pretty much returned to the dirt and really no loss of income because 259 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,080 we're harvesting it with the animals. 260 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,000 You're keeping your options open as far as raising row crops like corn and beans but 261 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:06,400 it sounds like you're not you would just as soon not go back to that if I understand correctly 262 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,640 you're really kind of sold on letting the cows harvest that is that kind of what you're 263 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,800 looking at now that it's as you have a little bit more success with this? 264 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,120 To be honest with you I'm not really into sitting in a tractor and row cropping. 265 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,200 I do believe though that the most resilient farm is going to be the one with the most 266 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:30,380 diverse sources of income so to put all my efforts into cows only the cow market could 267 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:36,320 crash or something eventually and leave me sitting perhaps on too much beef and when 268 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,120 I could be selling corn or something so I'm leaving my options open leaving some ground 269 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:48,040 tillable though my preference is to graze perennials however I'd also thought quite 270 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,560 a bit about maybe establishing a relationship with a row crop farmer in the area where we 271 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,120 traded fields around and grazed for a few years and then row cropped a few years or 272 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,500 even the same year just row crop and put the cows on the following cover crop. 273 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:09,040 So the theme of the field day is transitioning or is integrating livestock back into the 274 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:16,320 farm and I was wondering if you have any thoughts on if somebody is thinking about transitioning 275 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,660 livestock back into a farm integrating livestock back into something that's been in row crops 276 00:21:20,660 --> 00:21:26,680 for years is there a couple three two three things people should be thinking about first 277 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,440 steps that they should be doing it sounds like Langdon's kind of eased into this and 278 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,320 then he kind of upped his game a few years ago and has really seen some results but you 279 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,240 know you don't want to have throw your eggs in one basket and then have a disaster so 280 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,360 is there some things that people should be looking at yeah I would say the land needs 281 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,680 the livestock but that doesn't mean that each farmer has to do the livestock themselves 282 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:53,400 there's lots of examples of successful partnerships where the crop or the row crop farmer has 283 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,600 a livestock farmer come in and do the livestock part of it they don't have to own the livestock 284 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,480 you can successfully partner there are you know sites like the Midwest grazing exchange 285 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,640 or the Minnesota cropland grazing exchange where crop farmers can put out land and say 286 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,080 I have corn stocks for grazing or I'm gonna plant some cover crops can I get someone to 287 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,520 come in and so I would say that's one of the things is like if you are a row crop farmer 288 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,420 don't feel like you have to take on that extra responsibility the livestock but if you do 289 00:22:20,420 --> 00:22:24,960 decide to do that I mean that's that's great and I think it's you know take some baby steps 290 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,000 find some mentors people who have done it who can help you out you can you know reach 291 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,480 out to land stewardship project or sustainable farming association you know we've got folks 292 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,160 that have a lot of experience with livestock integration so yeah I think it's take some 293 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,960 baby steps and honestly like I think the biggest thing is gonna be water getting water to livestock 294 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,580 a lot of people overthink the water thing you know I actually just picked up from my 295 00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:53,480 own farm a water hauling rig for a couple hundred bucks it's an old running gear and 296 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,780 I've got capacity for 400 gallons on this trailer and I could add another couple hundred 297 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:02,720 gallon tank and so for a couple hundred bucks I've got a way to haul water so and typically 298 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,260 when you're doing a lot of this cropland grazing it's gonna be in the fall and winter when 299 00:23:06,260 --> 00:23:11,480 water requirements are already low so yeah a good fence around your field and and some 300 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,360 water and you'll be off to the races so but yeah take it slow take the baby steps but 301 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,600 the most important thing is the land does need the livestock it's super important for 302 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,600 nutrient cycling and to you know follow the soil health principles so I guess I've always 303 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,800 kind of gone under the train of thought that never stick your neck out any further and 304 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:35,280 you can afford to get it chopped off so I've I've kind of started you know if I invest 305 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,480 something in this journey I don't always expect a return on it but by and large I would say 306 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,060 eight out of ten times I try something new it turns out to be positive and the two three 307 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:51,980 times it doesn't turn out positive I can usually see why sometimes it's my own stubborn way 308 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:56,680 of thinking and sometimes it was just a bad weather pattern or something but to date 309 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,800 I don't regret anything I've tried it all seems to be working positively and actually 310 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,760 at the end of the year we do taxes now it's not quite as easy to show a loss as it used 311 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:13,900 to be we're coming on a new problem there but we'll be able to handle that one I love 312 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:17,880 that regenerative agriculture and following soil health is starting to create tax problems 313 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,760 from him so I guess a really good testimonial like let's create massive tax problems for 314 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:28,040 farmers by following soil health like let's that's that's awesome so I don't know if 315 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:44,320 that'll fit on a bumper sticker but you know we could try for more on building soil health 316 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,700 profitably integrating livestock and crops and the match made in heaven initiative see 317 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:56,840 the podcast page for your to the ground episode 350 at land stewardship project dot org if 318 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,720 you have comments or suggestions about this podcast contact Brian Dvor at bdivore at land 319 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:10,520 stewardship project dot org where you can call 612-816-9342 by the way it helps us greatly 320 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,520 if you can give your to the ground a rating on whatever podcast platform you utilize and 321 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,120 word of mouth is the best way to spread the news about our podcast if you like what you 322 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:26,560 hear tell at least one person about lsp's ear to the ground thanks to lower borgandale 323 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,200 western minnesota musician for your to the ground's theme music and a special thank 324 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,960 you to all of land stewardship projects members who make initiatives such as this podcast 325 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:41,560 possible if you're not a member visit land stewardship project dot org to learn how you 326 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:52,000 can support lsp thanks for listening