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composting, you know, it's an art form. It's a very scientific art form. If we have the healthy

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soil, the plant itself will take care of itself. If you give Mother Nature a chance,

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she'll fix herself. She will provide for herself.

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Welcome to the 359th installment of Ear to the Ground, the land stewardship projects podcast on

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family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy.

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I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter. In episode 358 of Ear to the Ground,

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I talked to Alex Uderman about how Meadowbrook Dairy is taking a holistic approach to building

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healthy, resilient soil. One of the methods the crop and livestock farm is experimenting with

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is composting. During a field day hosted by Meadowbrook, Alex talked about how his family

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is dipping its toes into using materials produced by the farm to generate a compost that can feed

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microbes and help kickstart biological activity in the soil. During the event, some farmers asked if

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it was possible to forgo composting locally sourced material and simply purchase inputs

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specifically designed to boost biology. However, as Julie Reberg explained, building a healthy

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soil biome is a delicate balancing act that relies on more than simply pouring on some sort

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of ingredient shipped in from an outside source. Reberg is a district conservationist for the USDA's

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Natural Resources Conservation Service office in Buffalo, Minnesota, and she's been working with

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farmers like the Udermans to help them figure out ways to integrate composting into soil building

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regimens. During the field day, Julie, along with Minnesota NRCS State Soil Health Specialist Stephanie

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McLean, gave a presentation on ways to monitor soil health. As Julie explained, once a farmer knows

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what healthy soil looks like, they can better understand the role composting can play in building

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a self-sufficient, resilient system. She also explained to the farmers gathered that when one

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sets up a composting system that breaks down, for example, manure, straw, corn stalks, and wood chips,

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those materials are no longer waste products to be gotten rid of. Composting can transform trash

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into treasure by setting in motion the kind of microbial activity that does the work of building

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a self-reliant soil. And a self-reliant soil is a profitable soil since it's less dependent on

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purchase fertilizer and other inputs to stay productive and resilient. After the field day,

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Julie talked to me about how advances in composting techniques are coming at a time when we're

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learning more and more about what makes the soil biome tick. That makes it a perfect moment for

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farms of all types to begin converting trash to biological treasure. She also shared how important

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it is to have the right mindset when launching a composting system. This isn't just about replacing

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a source of fertility with another input. It's about feeding the microbes so they can start doing

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the work they're capable of. So Julie, we just had a great field day here at the Meadowbrook Dairy,

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and we saw some of the things that the family here is doing to build soil health. And one of the

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things that was really key, I think, was kind of toward the end of the field day. We kind of went

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through the steps he talked about doing no-till, cover cropping, how he's integrating manure into,

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you know, kind of focusing more on how using that manure as a source of fertility and all of that.

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And then what was great was, I think it was kind of a really good holistic approach. One of the last

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things we talked about was composting. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about

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the role that maybe just in general composting could play, especially in a dairy here where he

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has a source of manure and that type of thing, just in general. Some of the things maybe if you're

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seeing more farmers kind of integrate that into their kind of big picture holistic soil health

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practices that they're doing. Okay, I am seeing more farmers who are trying to compost their dairy

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manure, their beef manure. They're trying to figure out ways to do it. And it's a great holistic

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approach. When you're thinking about raw manure is going to have a lot more of the bad biology in it,

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the disease-causing biology, which where if you're composting it and it's composted correctly,

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you're going to create a system where there's a diverse amount of biology in there. You're going

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to have your amoebas, your flagellates, your ciliates in there. You're going to have your

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beneficial nematodes in there and you want the nematodes that are the bacterial eating nematodes.

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They're going to be great for your fields because most fields are bacterial dominated. So when

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you're thinking about compost, it's great to have it tested for the nutrients, but you have to start

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thinking about, okay, I'm not building this for nutrients. I'm building this more for creating the

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microbial diversity that is lacking in the majority of the crop fields out there.

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So it sounds like you really need to take a look at not just, I think some people get a little

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confused, is say that they're doing composting for a garden. They're going to just spread that

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on the garden. It's almost like another layer of soil in this case, but you're really trying to

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activate the biology when you're doing it on a scale like this on a farm like this. Definitely

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activate the correct biology. Create an environment where the correct biology is going to populate

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and take over. Just like life, you're going to have good and bad anywhere you go and anything

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you look at, but you want to make sure that if you're having somebody look at your compost,

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what they're seeing is they're going to see a higher population of the good guys versus maybe

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they only see one or two of the bad guys. You want to make sure that population evens out.

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It's part of this too, valuing that manure more as a source of fertility and then just something to

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try to get rid of. I mean, I know one of the things that's really prompted Alex to look into this is

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price of fertilizer, kind of getting tired of the prices going up and down and him really realizing,

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well, I have this source of fertility, which maybe he's used it as a source of fertility,

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but he just, he wasn't testing, he wasn't doing the things to really figure out, well, maybe I

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can replace commercial fertilizer in some cases with the manure that I'm doing here. And then he

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kind of took that extra step to look at the composting, but is that part of this too, is kind of a

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renewed awareness of kind of what role manure can play in that fertility program? Definitely,

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manure should be looked at as a source of nutrients for your ground, for the crops out there. It

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shouldn't be just something that you're trying to get rid of. It's a lost source of nutrients

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that instead of spreading this and really looking at it and what the benefits of it,

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we're relying a lot on commercial fertilizers to where we should be relying more on the dairy

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manure, the beef manure, the farm manure. How are you going to benefit from that? It shouldn't be

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something that you're trying to get away. It's not waste. You should not be thinking of it as waste.

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It should be thinking of it as a source of gold, a source of how can you lower your inputs?

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Is part of this kind of seems to fit into this whole, we seem to be in the past several years

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learning so much more about soil health and soil biology and the life in the soil. It seems to go

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hand in hand with, okay, we know that the soil is much more alive than we ever thought. We know it

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can be improved in ways that we didn't realize it could ever be improved. And then, well, what if we

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can add some something like a compost system to kind of activate that? That seems to maybe, are

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we learning more about just as we learn more about soil health, we're learning more about the life

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that can be active in that compost. Right, yep. It's a way of diversifying your land instead of

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getting microbes from a different state or a different biome, a different, you know, you,

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the microbes that are up north in Minnesota aren't going to be the same ones here. The climate's

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different. The environment is different. You want to be able to grow your own microbes on your farm.

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And those are the ones that are going to do you the most benefit. Yeah, in the last few years,

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soil health has really boomed and not just, it's not just a buzzword, but we're looking at it that,

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you know, we're finding out about these microbes and we're finding out all these different

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activities that they do, the parts that they play, the plants themselves, they just found out,

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oh, I don't remember the year it came out, but they found out about the whole rhizophagy phase

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to where a growing root will exude enzymes, what will attract microbes. And when the microbes get

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close to the root, the root itself will absorb the microbes inside of it. And now this plant

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will absorb some of these microbes and use it for its own food. But then it will take these microbes

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and it pushes it through the leaves. It pushes it through the stems and the plant itself has microbes

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on the inside, fixing itself, feeding itself, doing the health of this plant. And then when it has the

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new hair roots that are growing out, it's spitting some of these microbes back out into the system.

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The microbes go back out, get more food, and then they're attracted to the root again and the

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process starts all over. But that's something that's just new that they're finding. And it's

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just phenomenal on what you think about how these microbes, these things we can't see,

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are really affecting our plants. And you start thinking about that and it's like, oh, well,

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you know what, maybe I shouldn't spray the plants for this. Maybe I need to start thinking about this

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a little bit differently. And I think that's going to come. It's a mind change, but we have to

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understand the process first. And there's so much to learn yet. But yeah, we've learned a lot in the

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last five, seven years, definitely. Well, that example just blew my mind. I hadn't heard that

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one. That's a pretty good one. I mean, when it can, it's almost like the plants can become

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self-perpetuating or self, kind of self-sufficient in a way. It is like, it's. Oh, absolutely. Yeah,

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absolutely. That would be, that would like be the golden ring, wouldn't it? If we could

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develop a system like that. Yep. If we have the healthy soil, the plant itself will take care of

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itself. It will send out the enzymes. It will send out the roots. It's going to make its own

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connection with the mycorrhizae. It's going to make its relationship with the biology that's in the

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ground. And they're going to start exchanging nutrients. Is every plant going to be healthy?

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No. Again, you have the good and the bad everywhere. But if you give mother nature a chance,

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she'll fix herself. She will provide for herself. That's, I think, something that is a really

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important lesson to learn that you can kind of create this soil that's self-sufficient and all

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of that. And one of the things that while we're here at the field day, and we were looking at

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some compost that Alex has been making, that he's been experimenting with, there was a lot of

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questions. I noticed people were kind of going into the old school way of thinking and saying,

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oh, so if I add commercial nitrogen fertilizer to this, can I speed up the process? Is there

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an extract I can add to this to kind of speed it up? And you really made the point, no, this is a

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process. It's a very complex biological process. And what you have to get into the mindset is,

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I'm growing biology, whether through the composting system or through using no-till and

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cover crops. I think that's a really important lesson. And it almost feels like people need to

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get out of an old school mindset to kind of look at, I'm growing biology overall. I'm kind of

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looking at this whole system and the compost is part of that, as well as the no-till and the

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cover cropping and maybe diverse rotations and that kind of thing. It's definitely a different

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way of thinking. You have to be open to it. It's like we're planting a seed in people's mind to

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just start thinking. And eventually it's that aha moment, okay, I understand this. And definitely

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composting is just increasing the biological activity. And that's what it should be

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thought of. And so yeah, inputting those external fertilizers, they've got the salt in there,

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you're not doing the microbes any good by adding that.

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No, and you talked about that, because that was the thing that you can really set back that biology

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with that. It's not just that it won't, it's a complex balance and you're going to throw it

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out of balance, but also you're going to do some damage to that biology.

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Composting is a tool, like you said, just like doing the no-till, doing the reduced tillage,

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maybe cutting back on some of the chemicals you're putting on your field. But it's all a tool. And

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you got to think about how are you going to use that tool in order to benefit, use the maximum

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benefits of it. I keep going back to the word holistic, but it's kind of a big picture way of

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looking. It is definitely holistic. Definitely holistic. And that takes, again, going back to

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you have to get out of that mindset of I've got this one silver bullet solution, kind of the input

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based mindset where I've got this one problem, I'm going to deal with it. And sometimes when you deal

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with a problem with a solution, that solution causes other problems that you didn't think of.

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Right. There's so much going on that we get so focused of, okay, if I need to fix this one

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problem, but actually what we're doing is addressing a symptom. And we're not really taking a step back

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and thinking about, okay, what is truly the problem here? What's the cause? And so we think we fix it

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and then down the road there's another problem. Okay, now we've got to fix that symptom. So it's

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trying to take a look and trying to just share some knowledge and get people to start thinking

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differently and okay, you know, what might the problem be? Where's it going to start?

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That's a really good point. Just in general, what you said you're seeing more farmers take an

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interest in composting, what kind of methods are you seeing them kind of practice and what ingredients

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are they using? What all are you seeing some of the folks doing? Well, there's just a few of them,

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but it's definitely the dairy farmers are, I've seen talk about it more and they're trying it.

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They're doing, some of them are just doing the static piles where you just pile it up and leave

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it sit for a year. Others are trying to actively turn it. Like here at the field days, Alex was

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experimenting with multiple piles, multiple small piles to see what ratio would work the best.

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If you can get your hand on the sawdust, if you can get your hands on some wood chips, which you're

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using, you know, what are the ingredients in your bed pack? What kind of manure do you have? It's

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very easy to look up on the internet, you know, what is the general ratio of dairy manure? What's

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the general carbon to nitrogen ratio of beef manure or horse manure? And then look at that and say,

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okay, how do I get that to the 30 to one carbon to nitrogen ratio? How do I get that? And then

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look at it and be honest with yourself. How am I going to turn this? How am I going to keep it wet?

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What am I going to do if it gets too wet? How am I going to manage this pile? So it's not so big.

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You hate going out there. You hate looking at it. It should be something that you get excited about.

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So as for ingredients, it's pretty much anything they have on the farm. Straw, hay, I've got some

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people I'm working with, they're composting their mortalities. They've worked- Dead animals. Yes,

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dead animals. So they're working with the NRCS to get a safe way to compost the mortalities,

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because you don't want that going into your groundwater any more than you want anything

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else going into your groundwater. But that's a very safe, effective way to do it if you're

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doing it correctly. And the University of Minnesota Extension has a wonderful program

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about composting mortality livestock. That's a really good point you made because Alex talked

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about this. He's already, even though he's just kind of dipping his toe into it, he's already

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thinking about things like, okay, if I'm going to be doing the big windrow system, I'm going to have

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to invest in a hundred thousand dollar turner, things like that. And that's kind of defeats

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the purpose of this being maybe a low-cost way of getting fertility. So you have to think about

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those kinds of things that, okay, what are going to be the steps down the road? How is this going to

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actually fit into my operation, both financially and management-wise too? You know, how much labor

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am I going to put into it? That kind of thing. Composting, you know, is, it's an art form.

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It's a very scientific art form, but you have to find the method that works for you. And you really

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have to be honest with yourself and think the whole thing through. Okay, where am I going to put this

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pile? What equipment do I have to work with? What are the ingredients I have to work with? What,

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how, how is this going to be fun and not create more stress and, and more, you know, time management?

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It should be something that you enjoy doing because the benefit of composting is phenomenal.

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Whether you use it on your own field, whether your neighbors take it from you, use it in your garden,

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it's a fantastic benefit. It sounds like a good tool as a microscope. Yes, and a good tool is

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definitely a microscope. They're very easy to get. You can get a very general one. It doesn't have to

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be a big fancy one. I think you can get one, a decent one, for two, three hundred dollars. And in

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the long run, I mean, that's nothing. And when you start to look at the microbes and you kind of learn

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what little critters are running around under there and you know what you're looking for, they become

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easier and easier to see and easier to find. And if you have that in your own home, it's so much more

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fun to just run out to your compost pile, take a quick sample, run in and look at it and you can see

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firsthand, you know what, okay, the populations aren't there yet. Or, hey, look at this thing

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running around. I wonder what that is. And now with the internet, it's so easy to find out what

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things are and what's going on. But definitely having a microscope makes it more fun for the

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landowner to get involved with the compost and know what's going on. Some of this kind of ties

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into this whole idea of the soil health movement in general, which is when I've seen farmers get

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into it, they say, I feel like I have more control over my own operation. I kind of feel like I can.

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I'm not relying on if there's a war overseas, all of a sudden the price of energy goes up and I'm

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paying exorbitant prices for inputs or yeah, supply disruptions, that kind of thing. Really,

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it's kind of fun for them to be able to kind of take control, use local resources, their own kind

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of what they have on the farm to kind of build the fertility and kind of become in a way like

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that plant you talked about, more self-sufficient in their own way. It just seems like it's more

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of a mindset that yeah, this is something I can kind of generate on my own farm and have control

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over what goes into it from labor to expenses to whatever. It's definitely a way of managing

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your farm more efficiently, becoming more self-sufficient. I personally think it's a

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great way to work with what you already have in your farm. Why keep bringing inputs on when you

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have this great resource? If you can find a way to manage with it, if you can find a way to work

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with it, it's a great resource. If somebody was looking to get, let's say they are a crop livestock

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farmer and they were looking to get into composting, what are some of the first couple of steps they

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would look to do to kind of jump into something like this or at least experiment with it? I would

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say there's so much on the internet. Everybody has their favorite way of composting. You're going to

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have to find out what works for you. Maybe spend an hour or two because you can really go down the

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rabbit hole on YouTube, but look at some of what other people are doing for composting and see if

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that gives you any ideas of how this can function for you. What equipment do you already have on the

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farm that you can work with? What is a safe area that you can put your compost piles in? Just start

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giving it, I would say the first step would be research it a little bit and then really be honest

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with yourself, okay, where can I start? Start small. Don't start with a huge pile that you just

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can't keep up with and manage because you're going to hate it right away, just like with anything else.

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Try it, see what happens. Have your goal. Do you want your compost to be done in three, four months?

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Are you okay with it sitting for a year or two? What is your end goal for the compost? What's

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the purpose of it? If you're doing it just to do it, how do you know if you fail or if you succeed?

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So that's what I would start out thinking about or start out doing. Yeah and see what you

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develops on that experimental pile, kind of what Alex is doing here, and not say, okay, I'm going

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to have a pile of compost next spring so I can go cold turkey on commercial fertilizer. Yeah, definitely

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don't do that. Have your trial errors and if you're going to use it for the purpose of fertilizer,

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have it tested. Make sure you know what you're doing, but for compost what you're looking at

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mostly is there nutrients in it? Absolutely. Every batch is going to be different,

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but think about it more as, okay, I'm trying to grow the microbes in here. I am trying to

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create diversity of the microbes in the soil. If you look at it that way, okay, that's great,

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and then you're not thinking, okay, I'm going to decrease all of the nutrient inputs, but think

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about it that way, and then down the road you can start thinking about, you know what, maybe I don't

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need to put on as much as I did before because then the microbes are doing their thing, but it's

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definitely not, okay, try it and then cut everything else off. It's a tool. Learn with it. Figure out

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what works for your operation and then go from there. Yeah, and you were saying let it do the

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work. That was a really important lesson here because you folks were looking at some soil samples

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and we were looking at earthworm casings and we were looking at that glue, that glomulum that

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holds it together, and we were really seeing, and I think that was a really good point that you made

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to the farmers here, hey, let these do the work. Let it do the work, and that's something Alex has

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really promoted too on his farm. He feels like they have, because of some of the things they've

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done, they've been maybe letting nature do some of this work. They've got more time on the farm,

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are able to kind of enjoy farming a little bit more. Right, and like Stephanie said, if you have

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the earthworms in your field, they're removing two tons of soil a year. I mean, that's huge. Is it

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slow? Absolutely, but it's working and you're keeping your soil aggregates together and you're

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keeping, you know, the glomulin is working, keeping everything together, and so let them do the work.

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For more on composting and soil microbiology, see the podcast page for Ear to the Ground episode 359

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at landstewitshipproject.org. There you'll also find links to a podcast interview we did with

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Alex Uderman of Meadowbrook Dairy, as well as episodes related to LSP's research into the

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Johnson-Sue Bioreactor Composting System. If you have comments or suggestions about this podcast,

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contact Brian DeVore at bdevor at landstewitshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342.

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It helps us greatly if you can give Ear to the Ground a rating on whatever podcast platform you

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utilize and word of mouth is the best way to spread the news about our podcast. If you like what you

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hear, tell at least one person about LSP's Ear to the Ground. Thanks to Laura Borgendel, Western

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Minnesota musician, for Ear to the Ground's theme music and a special thank you to all of Land

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Stewardship Project's members who make initiatives such as this podcast possible. If you're not a

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member, visit landstewitshipproject.org to learn how you can support LSP. Thanks for listening!