Oh yes, and in 2022 when there was $7 corn and I was out bailing hay, absolutely.
As I turn the tractor around and see the ethanol plant as I'm driving by, I'm questioning what
am I doing out here.
I could be grazing corn.
I look at it from a diversity standpoint.
Ethanol is a part of agriculture, but this other part of agriculture, the grazing, the
livestock end of it, that should also be a part of it as well.
Welcome to the 357th installment of Ear to the Ground, the Land Stewardship Project's
podcast on family farming, regenerative agriculture, community food systems, and local democracy.
I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter.
Talk about market accessibility.
In case Alan and Kathleen Deitz ever need a reminder of one of the main reasons corn
dominates the landscape in their part of southwestern Minnesota, they need to look no further than
the massive ethanol plant that rises to the sky just across one of their fields.
The Deitz's farm some 800 acres in Lyon County.
The land is just on the edge of the city of Marshall and lays as flat as a billiard table,
making it prime corn growing ground.
So yes, they do raise corn, and yes, much of it goes to that Archer Daniels Midland
ethanol plant just up the road.
But in biofuels' massive shadow, the Deitz's are going against the grain, literally.
About half the acres that make up their operation is planted to crops for the organic market.
The Deitz's raise not only corn, but wheat, oats, and sometimes barley on these organic
acres.
But perhaps the area where the farmers depart most dramatically from the corn-centric economy
of the region is in their use of rotational grazing to produce livestock.
They have a cow-calf beef herd, as well as a flock of hare sheep.
Goats and hogs are also part of the mix at Redwood River Farms, which direct markets
meet to customers.
All those animals are raised on rotationally grazed paddocks, planted to summer annuals,
among other things.
They also graze the local Minnesota Department of Natural Resources' wildlife area.
The Deitz's dairy farmed until they sold the herd in 2016, and reintegrating animals
onto the land hasn't been easy.
For one thing, they had to set up a significant system of fencing, which they were able to
do with the help of such initiatives as the Natural Resources Conservation Service's
Environmental Quality Incentives Program.
At first glance, not taking full advantage of a handy local market for a crop that grows
well on this land may not seem to make sense.
But the Deitz's have some good, nuts-and-bolts reasons for not going whole hog into growing
corn for biofuels.
Alan has a master's degree in economics and teaches ag business at Southwest Minnesota
State University in Marshall.
So he knows how to crunch the numbers and do financial projections.
He sees livestock as a way to diversify the farm's income stream while providing a kind
of insurance policy that fortifies them against crop failures, something that's become particularly
critical in recent years as climate change churns out extreme weather on a regular basis.
And diversity helps safeguard a farm's viability when corn prices plummet, as they did in 2024.
In addition, rotational grazing bolsters the soil's long-term biological health, building
up a bit of a bank account that can be cashed in when annual crops are planted.
During a recent field day sponsored by the Sustainable Farming Association and the Department
of Natural Resources, the Deitz's provided a tour of their fields and grazing paddocks
and explained how they're using the livestock not only as a source of income, but as a way
to transition acres into organic production.
Afterwards, with the lights of the ADM ethanol plant twinkling in the dark on the other side
of the Redwood River, I talked to Alan about the value of diversity, the benefits of reintegrating
livestock onto the land, and why he and Kathleen are leaning more in the direction of perennials.
He also talked about how it isn't always easy to experiment with regenerative farming
methods as farmers from across the region haul corn right past his fields to the ethanol
plant.
The farmer started our conversation by describing the crop livestock rotation history of a 40-acre
field we were sitting near.
We just had a field day and you did a really nice job of taking us to different parts of
the farm, different fields, and doing a little history on what you're thinking of because
I think one of your main messages was you have to think about this on a multi-year level
and you can't just go from year to year.
You're thinking more in the long term and trying to integrate soil health into that
type of thing.
So the first field that we looked at here, I think it's a 40-acre field.
Take us a little bit through the history of that.
I think that was a really good example of you kind of having to think in the long term
and also really roll with the punches a little bit with weather and other things that kind
of come in on that.
Yeah, so that first field we went to was organic wheat this year.
It was a 40-acre field.
Where we're at right now, it ended up being actually my most profitable acres this year
from what I'm seeing.
I had roughly around a 53, 54 bushel average on the organic wheat.
Had it tested out and it did make a milling quality.
So that was a nice little bonus on top of that.
So it ended up turning out really well, which was nice after kind of the history, which
I'll get into now.
But that field was one of the first fields that I converted over to organic.
We did that by planting it in perennials.
That was a decision I made.
That was how I was going to do it.
A lot of farmers, when they end up switching over to organic, they'll end up planting
alfalfa stands.
That's a pretty common way to transition over.
I knew I wanted to be able to graze this and have some diversity in the mix.
And so I worked with, I believe it was Millborne Seeds, Justin Fritchie over at Millborne Seeds,
and he helped me develop a mix that worked really well.
It was with Timothy, Timothy metal brome, some fescue.
There was a couple other in the mix for the grasses.
And then it had in some clovers and some clovers and alfalfa.
And that ended up being a really good grazing mix and a hay mix.
So we ended up grazing and haying that for 2000, well, we had a nurse crop on 2018, but
in 2019 we ended up haying and grazing that, 2020 all the way up until 2023.
2023, knowing that after being in organic for that long, or being in hay ground for
that long and passed its organic certification, I looked at it from a cash flow standpoint
that maybe it was time to pull this out of perennials and cash in on the bank account,
the savings account that I have accumulated with the perennials there by building the
soil out, I should say.
And so it seemed like the time to do that.
So what we ended up doing that year is actually calving out on that piece.
So we actually grazed off the first crop, grazed off the first crop and had her calved
out there.
Worked out great.
The cow calves did well.
It was just, since it was so close to the farm, just made a lot of sense.
It worked out really well.
And we ended up finishing up calving, or close to finishing up, but we moved the cattle off
so then I could do a spring plowing.
Spring plowing is sometimes tricky from what I've heard, but the conditions were right
at the time.
It was fairly dry and everything kind of looked good.
So I went ahead and made my first pass through the field and somewhat regretted it because
I didn't want to see those perennials be plowed up.
But then I also knew why I was doing what I was doing.
So I continued on and it was really nice.
There was really great aggregates in the soil.
I was really, really excited to see how this was going to turn out for a corn crop.
I ended up going over to the field cultivator one time just to kind of level out the field
and then went in with a planter and planted.
It seeded really nice.
The unfortunate thing that ended up happening was between roughly about May 10th to September
20th in 2023, my farm or farm location there ended up with about three and three quarter
inches of rain during that time.
And so we did not get enough water or moisture in the soil to get it started.
That late plow probably grazing off that first part and then being, it was also very hot
and dry when I plowed.
I think it got up to 90 degrees at that point.
So it kind of baked the soil a little bit as well.
So we ended up in a situation where we planted but didn't, we didn't have enough moisture
to germinate the seeds.
Over that time, that three and a three quarter inches, I think we had one rain that was a
half inch and that came in July sometime.
Otherwise, it was a tenth, two tenths at a time, not enough to connect the seed and the
soil together.
And so we ended up having just an awful stand out there.
That awful stand, it was probably 20, 25% stand.
And at that point, it was just not going to be a viable crop.
Checked with crop insurance, make sure that I went through all the proper channels to
make sure that that worked out, that we were all on the same page.
And then at that point, I made the decision to leave a check strip and graze the rest
of it off using cattle.
That ended up working out pretty well to do so because they kept the weeds down in those
acres.
They processed through that corn and we really didn't end up taking anything off it besides
what the cattle took off and gained.
And then they processed all that excess forage and put it back in the soil.
So that was kind of the lead up to the 2024 crop, which ended up being, like I said, we
had a very, very dry winter.
So going from a very dry summer to a very dry winter, I wasn't quite sure how things
were going to look going into 2024.
I ended up deciding to put that in wheat.
We were lucky enough to get it in fairly early.
I think it was April 7th is when I got it in this year.
And it was right after we had some rain.
I contemplated with the dry spring that we had, I contemplated planting it right around
the 20th, 21st of March, but I chose not to because it just seemed too early to do so.
And then luckily it rained for a couple of weeks, so we did have some moisture when I
planted into it.
Kind of prevented me from making a bad decision of planting too early, I guess.
But then I was able to get it in on April 7th, which was really nice.
I got it in and we got a nice little rain on it afterwards.
So it took off from there.
The field ended up taking off fairly well through the season.
Due to the drought last year, we had a real bad bloom of Canadian thistle that popped
up through the low spots.
But the spring that we had, it ended up being a wetter spring than anticipated.
That kind of perpetuated, which kind of perpetuated the problem in some of the areas.
So the real wet spots on the farm ended up having a lot of Canadian thistle.
So as we were going through the season, I wasn't quite sure how it was going to end
up.
We went out there and tried to do some walking to try to top some of those thistle heads
off.
That was the only really issue we had from a weed pressure standpoint.
Yeah, and then other than that, we ended up, some of it just kind of got away from us because
of the moisture and so we kind of let it go at that point.
And yeah, ended up harvesting it this year and it turned out to be a fairly good crop
for organic wheat.
So we're happy with that.
I think this is a really good example of, you were talking about how when the corn crop
didn't work out, because you had livestock, it's almost like an insurance policy.
You were able to bring them in and get economic value out of that corn crop while bringing
in their manure and adding fertility to it.
I mean, I think that's a really, if you didn't have that livestock, if you hadn't put in
fencing systems and that kind of thing, so you could graze it, you wouldn't have that
option.
It would have been a failure and you wouldn't have gotten that economic value.
Plus you wouldn't have maybe been building that soil health up for the future a little
bit.
Yeah, it ended up working out.
It worked out pretty good.
Working with my crop insurance agent, making sure that I was going through those proper
channels to do so, we were able to graze it.
And so at that point, what was going to be kind of a weedy mess and sporadic corn crop,
we were able to turn that into some value by running the cattle and maintaining it.
With an organic system, you're limited on the tools that you have in the toolbox.
You can't necessarily go out and spray weeds that are down and you don't necessarily want
fallow ground sitting there.
So having the cattle run over it was a great option.
And then yeah, it was a good point you brought up with having the fencing.
Particularly where I'm at, it's a very heavy corn and soybean region and a lot of the fences
have been taken out over the years.
And there's just not a lot of farmers that have the ability to run cattle.
Even if they had cattle, they'd have to replace all the fences that they had.
So I'm glad I started building in that infrastructure because it ends up giving me those options,
as you said, as an insurance policy.
And with those fields, it kind of makes them more dynamic at that point too.
I'm not stuck in a route where I have to go corn or soybeans in my rotation or just row
crops.
I can mix in cattle on a hay crop.
I can do an annual cover crop, an annual pasture, I should say.
All of those things are options that I have by being able to do that.
It's especially important with the climate that we're in because it'd be nice to get
a normal year.
But really over the last, I go back to 2018 when I started the organic transition, there
really hasn't been a normal year from a historical context.
On our home farm here in 2018, we had the river crested twice, which flooded over into
our farm once in July, once in September.
2019 was the year where majority of Lyon County was in prevent plant.
I think only, I'm going to inverse these numbers here, but I can't remember if 60% of the crop
was not planted or only 60% of it was planted, but of the corn crop.
So most of it was in prevent plant that year because it ended up getting so, because of
the moisture we had.
2020 started out really wet, but then dried out and turned out to actually be what we
would consider more of a normal year, I guess, because it was more of a normal cropping year
that way.
But then we had 2021, 22 and 23 where we saw drought.
You might not have necessarily saw it to the same effect on the corn and soybean for corn
and soybean farmers, but if you had hay or pasture or any of the other crops, you saw
the effects of that drought that hit.
So and then this year we had what was looking like a drought coming into the season and
then turned out to be a fairly wet May and June.
So and July for that matter as well.
So it's just with kind of the erratic weather system that we've had, it gives you some resilience
and some options when things don't go the way that you're anticipating.
Talking about the fencing and how you were explaining earlier, so we can see literally
from your farm, the ADM ethanol plant here, and that really had a big, I don't know when
you said that one in.
It was built in the mid 80s and what that did in this area really had a really big economic
impact on corn farming.
It used to be historically there, Lyon County here had a fairly low corn price because there
wasn't a lot of options to move it out of here from an export standpoint.
So it was definitely a value added at that point.
Yeah, so having that there kind of did change the landscape a little bit because it seemed
like a lot of the farmers in the area because of that basis improvement decided to get out
of livestock, which you know is their prerogative and what they want to do and it made economic
sense.
But I still being a former dairy farmer and still having cattle, I think it is important
to still have that livestock connection on a farming operation.
Obviously that's always been the case.
Domesticated animals have been included in farming since farming had started and there's
a good relationship that happens between having the livestock and the soil.
When you take those out of it, there's something missing at that point.
Well the other thing that really struck me is we went a mile north of the farm here to
another farm that you farm and I think you said it's 175 acres or 170 acres.
You've been establishing some, looks like some summer annuals and some stuff there that
you're grazing there.
But one of the things you pointed out was the cow pies.
I think this is a really important point that you pointed out.
You said the cattle are bringing something back to this.
I think that that's an important thing to look at is that when you are using the cattle,
it's even different from maybe taking hay off.
You are returning something back if you're doing a good grazing management system.
Right.
Yeah.
With that field that we looked at, I planted a summer annual pasture is the way to look
at it.
It was a combination of wheat, oats, and barley.
Just some crops that I raised on the farm here.
Then I purchased some field peas.
I think I had some common vetch and what was the last part of that, buckwheat.
I mixed that in there with the intentions of grazing that.
It might look a little funny to some individuals where the only economic value that I'd end
up getting off of it this year would be running cattle over it.
I'm looking at it from a long-term perspective.
Next year I'm hoping that's going to be an organic corn crop.
They're basically applying all of my minerals, or not my minerals, my fertilizer for next
year.
All the nutrients that I'll need for that crop, they're applying out there.
Whereas I might not necessarily make as much money, I'm hoping to have a break even on
that field this year.
Next year I'll see the value of that when we pull the organic corn off of it because
the amount of nutrients that I had to apply, I'm not having to buy any button inputs.
That's the big advantage that I'm seeing.
Even if the crop ends up only being 100 bushel of organic corn, that's still going to cash
flow because of the low inputs that I have into it.
I think that's the big thing that they add into it.
Then too, I think from a fitness standpoint with cattle, I think it's good for them to
be out moving around on the land.
That's where they need to be, is out on the land versus in some sort of barn or in a yard
or a lot.
You just have to put up with the peer pressure of because the ethanol plant is right there,
like you said, everybody's driving by hauling their corn to the ethanol plant.
That's probably one of the most trafficked areas in the county.
You're like, what's Alan doing now?
That's something you have to deal with a little bit.
Yeah, I've noticed from a few neighbors that they'll say something about... They usually
have... It's the Minnesota nice thing.
They'll say something, when something goes right, they'll say, well, that worked out
pretty good or that was kind of neat to see.
I know people see it, which is a double-edged sword at that point where, yeah, it's good
for... To see something a little variety out there, but then also when something fails,
it fails spectacularly.
The joke I have is every farmer in four counties drives by my farm at some point, it seems
like, because of my location.
Whether they know it's me or not, they still see what's going on out there.
That was a tough one last year with the organic corn failure.
Just having that look the way it did and knowing that I was grazing it, knowing that I had
a plan, I understood what I was doing.
I understood it made economic sense on my end, but from the casual passerby seeing that,
it didn't look appealing.
That was the same thing that happened this year with the wheat.
I had the thistle bloom that ended up in those wet areas.
I knew it didn't look good, but I knew how good the rest of the crop looked.
I knew what the numbers were on it, that yes, I don't want to have those thistles.
Yes, I want to try to do what I can about it, but on the other end, from an economic
standpoint, it was going to make sense and it's part of my farming operation.
I think that brings up another really good point that you brought up, which was your
off-farm job as you teach, is it ag finance?
Ag business.
Ag business at Southwest Minnesota State University.
You're used to looking at finances and thinking in terms of numbers and that kind of thing.
One of the points that you made was it's a little bit frustrating that building soil
organic matter is not one of those things that really shows up on a balance sheet.
That's really hard to tabulate and say, okay, maybe I'm not getting a top crop this year,
but I'm still, because I'm integrating livestock into the system and kind of building that
soil health, I am over time kind of building up the financial resiliency of the soil here.
It sounds like that's something that you think about a lot.
Yeah, and I was fairly lucky with my dad.
He may not have understood kind of the things that I was trying to transition on the farm
and do, but he always gave me enough rope to hang myself, I guess.
He might not have understood it, but he let me go through it and sometimes it worked out,
sometimes it didn't.
At his funeral a couple years ago, it was kind of a nice thing that one of the seed
salesmen mentioned to me at the funeral is that my dad, when the last time he had talked
with him about buying seed, could stop talking about how profitable one of my fields ended
up being a few years ago.
Where I had organic barley on the field, ended up yielding 90 bushel barley and we ended
up running cattle over the top of it.
We ended up planting just at the right time, had a really nice cover crop on it and we
ended up grazing cattle on it for about a month after we were feed.
My inputs were virtually nothing because I kept my own seed back and there was no fertilizer
besides running the cattle on top of it.
He never said it to me, but he must have said it to other people.
He couldn't believe it.
That was probably the most profitable land or profitable field that we had on all of
our farms and I couldn't believe it how well it worked with how little inputs.
Now it wasn't always that way, not every field, but it was nice to have those things happen.
Getting back to what you were saying, the unfortunate thing I think I see now is that
there's not enough of that older generation that's willing to let that younger generation
take those chances and do those things.
You know, we had farm income in 2022 was great and 23 was really good as well.
We're going to have a downturn in overall income in 2024 with the prices the way that
they've shifted.
That shift is going to put us back into a situation, unless something happens, is going
to put us into a situation where margins are going to get thin again for operators.
We saw that after the 2012, 11, 12 run up in commodity prices.
We had a step down through 13 and 14 through really 2020 were really tough on farmers,
very thin margins.
And so really taking those chances were something that a lot of them didn't want to do because
again why would you put yourself in a situation where you could have a loss and if there's
not a lot of room to move around.
And then additionally if you're, you know, a lot of farmers have to utilize credit to
make their farming operations work.
When it comes from a lender's standpoint, not saying that they're against any of the
soil health or any of that by any means, but the one thing is on a balance sheet you're
never going to find a line item that says soil organic matter.
That's not going to matter.
It might show up through your practices from being more profitable, but there's no line
on that.
And it's something that you have to build up over time.
And so you need to have a little leeway in the front end so that way you can make things
going.
You need to have that catalyst going forward.
That's kind of the unfortunate thing is that a lot of farmers don't have that option of
being able to get, or young farmers don't have that option to get things started that
way.
If you can start on a small field and just do something different and just give it a
try to see where it goes.
I mean, that's kind of where it starts.
But you have to have the ability to be able to do that.
And if you can't start somewhere, you're never going to be able to get started anywhere.
One of the things you brought up repeatedly was how you've had to deal with, there was
a couple years of drought.
Now we had this weird, super wet early part of the season this year where things kind
of flipped.
And one of the things you pointed out, which I think is a good point, that after a couple
years of drought, you can tell people all you want that cover crops are a good idea.
Boy, they have kind of a bad reputation right now because people just couldn't get them
established and they didn't go well.
So one of the things you brought up was you would point out an example of where there
was some issues with a piece of land that you were working with.
And you'd say, boy, if I could get more perennials established here, I think that that would really
help me be more resilient on this piece of land and kind of be more flexible.
It sounds like that that's really the whole perennialization is something that you really
think about and maybe are leaning more toward.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're leaning more towards on the farm in
general.
Yeah, it's something I've thought about for a long time.
And just trying to make that cash flow, again, is kind of the difficult one.
Just where I'm located.
And a lot of that goes back to the cost of land.
So in our area, we've had some land sales that were $14,000, $15,000 an acre.
So land values are very high.
Cash rent has been really high.
I assume with commodity prices where they're at right now, they're going to come down.
I am lucky I'm farming some family land, so that makes it easier.
But I still have to come up with cash rent.
And when you make that conversion over to perennials, there's an investment.
There's the investment of that first year of whether you put a nurse crop on it or if
you're trying to take some hay off of it, it is not going to cash flow in that first
year.
So I've got one field this year that I've started in a perennial grass mix.
It does have some legumes, some elf elf in there.
But this year, from an economic standpoint, I'm not going to be pulling off a lot from
it.
It's going to be a sink on the cash flow.
Lucky the other fields are hopefully going to be covering that, like the organic wheat
will help out to offset some of that.
And that's kind of how I approach this.
But going really back into those perennials, I look at some of the problems that I had
and a lot of them could have been solved from that, especially with adding more grasses
to the mix.
I have some alfalfa fields as well that were not supposed to be strictly alfalfa fields.
Planting them in those droughts created a situation where the alfalfa took and the grasses
didn't.
And so the alfalfa with its deep roots was able to tap onto some moisture and the grasses
ended up withering and dying.
And so these stands of alfalfa that I have were supposed to be a very diverse mix with
grasses.
But that didn't come to be.
That's prevented me from being able to graze them effectively because it's either having
to be late season or very mature alfalfa, otherwise I'm going to have issues with bloat.
And yes, I know there's ways to mitigate that, but at the end of the day, it doesn't necessarily
mitigate all of the issues you have with that.
But with the grasses, what that does is it gives me the option from a hay standpoint
and then also running the livestock.
My first love, and I'd like to be the main, the primary enterprise on the farm is going
to be the livestock.
And with the sheep that we brought in, with the cattle, if I could run everything with
cattle and sheep or whatever other livestock and really take down the grain end of it,
I'd much prefer that.
But I have to be able to make that cash flow from a year to year basis.
And so that's where those perennials, trying to fit in, figure out where those perennials
come in.
If it rains too much, it's not a big deal with perennials because they're just going
to suck up all the moisture.
If you can't get out there to cut hay, not a big deal.
You can go out and graze it.
If it gets too dry, yes, that's unfortunate, but it's going to be dry anywhere.
And then there's risk mitigation tools that are available if it gets too dry on grazing
land.
So you can utilize those too.
It just gives you so many more options.
And then also with the cover crops, I really do like adding in all of these cover crops.
I like adding in these different plants.
But if you're not going to get enough moisture to get growth out of them, and you're running
those tractors and the equipment over the fields over and over again, there's a cost
to that.
And labor costs for repair costs on equipment aren't going down.
The cost of equipment isn't going down.
So if you can go into a perennial system, you can also limit a lot of that as well.
From what I'm understanding from others I've talked to, quality of life might actually
improve a little bit as well.
There might be some free time instead of sitting on the seat of a tractor trying to get a cover
crop in and making sure you have feed for cattle down the road.
It's growing naturally that way.
You're harvesting energy from the sun.
I can't get over a little bit the irony that you are farming literally in the shadow of
an ethanol plant, a major ethanol plant, which not to beat up on ethanol, but it has, you
know, played a major role in livestock being removed from the land in counties like Lyon
County here, you know, where we're just, when an ethanol plant comes in, it's a big market
for corn.
And so there is, the fences come out, livestock leaves the area and we don't see the integrated
livestock crop farms anymore.
You are kind of going, there's, you know, farmers all over who are going against the
grain and trying to do things differently.
You're doing it in the shadow of an ethanol plant, which is a big player in the trend
the other way where everything goes into row crops.
I mean, do you ever think about the irony of that a little bit of how you're kind of,
you're really going against the grain?
Oh yes.
And in 2022 when there was $7 corn and I was out baling hay, absolutely.
I would, as I turned the tractor around and see the ethanol plant on the, as I'm driving
by, I'm questioning what am I doing out here?
I could be grazing corn and I do raise corn as well.
So and then most of my corn goes to the ethanol plant there that because my, I try to brace
my livestock as more of a grass based system.
I'm not feeding any corn to my livestock.
So the corn that I do raise does go to the ethanol plant.
I look at it from a diversity standpoint that, you know, it's good to have those options
out there for individuals, but I think the key there is the diversity.
Yes, ethanol is a part of agriculture, but this other part of agriculture, the grazing,
the livestock end of it, that should also be a part of it as well.
We need to, you know, just have a balance between the two.
So but yes, that $7 corn made me just kind of grind my teeth together.
What was I thinking?
Now I think the local price right now is at $3.95, which again, I teach a commodities
class at SMSU and commodities class, we were looking over basis.
The ethanol plant has risen the basis here.
We have a stronger basis than a lot of the local communities.
If you get 20, 30 miles away from here, the corn price could be 30 or 40 cents lower based
on that.
So it does have a, it does have an economic bearing on the area, which in a positive way
for grain farmers.
But again, just need to be able to strike a balance on it.
I can stomach baling hay a little bit better when it's, when I see the $3.95 as the price
versus a north of $7.
For more on building soil health profitably and reintegrating livestock onto the land,
see the podcast page for Ear to the Ground episode 357 at landstewardshipproject.org.
If you have comments or suggestions about this podcast, contact Brian DeVore at bdevor
at landstewardshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342.
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Thanks for listening.
And we'll see you next time.