1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,280 When I think back on it, it became exciting. 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:08,960 And so this was, this thing was really moving and there was people that were everything from 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:14,400 ecstatic to upset and everything in between. Everything in between. 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,960 Welcome to the 354th installment of Ear to the Ground, 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,200 the Land Stewardship Project's podcast on family farming, regenerative agriculture, 6 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,560 community food systems, and local democracy. I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship 7 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,440 Letter. The first time I saw Jay Feer in action, he was tramping through a diverse planting of 8 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:49,520 cover crops in South Central North Dakota and inviting some 120 farmers to do the same. 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,360 They were hesitant to crush such a verdant stand of green plants in a region that often suffers 10 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,720 from lack of precipitation. Take a closer look. Anything you tramp down is just carbon in the 11 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:06,560 soil, said Feer as he began spading up soil samples. Since then, I've talked to Jay several times 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,480 and have always been struck by two things. First, that he's unwilling to accept our soil as a 13 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:18,880 degraded resource. In his opinion, we have the ability to not just conserve or sustain it, 14 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,920 but to improve it. What's also impressed me about Jay is that he's one of these people who did a bit 15 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,280 of a pivot in his career as a soil conservationist. During the first part of his tenure with the USDA's 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,720 Natural Resources Conservation Service, Jay was pretty conventional in his approach. He would 17 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,800 visit farmers, see that they had a problem, and prescribe practices and structures that basically 18 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:46,000 put a band-aid on the symptoms that were resulting from a farming system based on bare soil, 19 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,240 intense tillage, monocrops, and lack of biological activity. Jay went on to be instrumental in 20 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,280 developing the Burleigh County Soil Health Team. This team, which was made up of farmers such as 21 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,080 Gabe Brown along with scientists and natural resource agency professionals like Jay, played 22 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,800 a key role in launching the current soil health movement we're experiencing in this country and 23 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:13,040 beyond. Over the years, scores of farmers and soil conservationists have traveled to the Bismarck area 24 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,320 to tour farms that were regenerating their soil and to take a look at the research being done at 25 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:24,000 the Monocan Farm, a soil health demonstration site operated by the Burleigh County Soil Conservation 26 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,200 District. These days, Jay divides his time between working at the Monocan Farm and providing training 27 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,560 and demonstrations related to building soil health. As part of that latter work, I ran into him this 28 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:40,000 summer at the northeastern Minnesota farm of John and Karen Stevens. During a Minnesota Soil Health 29 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,440 Coalition field day that Stevens has hosted, Jay described ways of monitoring soil health and took 30 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:52,000 folks on a pasture walk. It turns out Jay had visited the same farm seven years ago and, as we 31 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:58,080 describe in Ear to the Ground 353, he was blown away by the improvements the Stevens's have made 32 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,800 to their soil since that first visit. The conservationist says the Stevens farm is a prime 33 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:08,080 example of an operation that's regenerated its land following the soil health principles of 34 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:14,080 armoring the surface, minimizing disturbance, increasing plant diversity, providing continuous 35 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,600 living root systems, and integrating livestock. After the field day, I sat down with Jay next to 36 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,240 one of the Stevens's fields to talk about the beginnings of the initiative in Burleigh County 37 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,520 and how it was influenced by history, holistic management, and the latest breakthroughs in soil 38 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,240 science. What's refreshing about Jay is that despite his optimism about the ability of the 39 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:40,560 soil health movement to revitalize agriculture, he's also quite frank about the realities we face. 40 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,160 Despite the soil health gains he's witnessed by visiting farms like the Stevens's, 41 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:50,240 the veteran conservationist is quite troubled by the backwards steps we're taking on a region-wide 42 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:57,120 basis as the current cropping system becomes more entrenched. Jay also shared why on a day years ago 43 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,280 when he first started talking about a different approach to soil conservation with his colleagues, 44 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:09,280 he ended up eating lunch alone. So I initially started out treating symptoms and I think that's 45 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,720 an easier start because they're from a human aspect, they're so much easier to see and identify, 46 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:20,960 and we can get really good at that because it's well defined and so you can develop a skill set 47 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:28,080 to do that. But the the missing item for me was any fulfillment from the the human aspect, 48 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:34,560 something that you looked at with maybe some pride or maybe some fulfillment that said this 49 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:43,040 is very satisfying in my life and it feels right. And I was missing that element and so I still 50 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:51,120 recall the day very vividly. I got up in front of my peers at an NRCS meeting and previously I had 51 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,760 asked for you know if I could speak to the group and I was told we will give you five minutes before 52 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:05,120 lunch and I said I'll take it and five minutes before lunch I spoke to my peers and I said we're 53 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:13,040 starting to look at writing descriptions for soil health principles and I said they talk about things 54 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:19,760 like soil aggregates, they talk about things like carbon and I said they're the things I don't know 55 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:26,400 a lot about but I'm learning about them and I'm asking others to teach me on them. And so it 56 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:32,160 started the whole process right there for mentors and so the interesting thing was it got so quiet 57 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:38,160 in the group. Nobody asked a question, nobody said anything positive or negative. It was just a little 58 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:44,800 strange and I always end this story by saying yes I did have lunch alone that day but it was it was 59 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:51,440 the start and you have to start somewhere and for me it was important that it was like I wanted 60 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:58,720 a beginning line and so that was my beginning line and so I went down kind of a road of 61 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:08,480 self-education and mentorship education and I learned how to do how to look at carbon cycles, 62 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,840 carbon and carbon cycles, how to look at cropping systems, what builds these aggregates, what moves 63 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:21,200 a carbon needle, what difference does it make if I tilled or didn't till, what does a bricks level do, 64 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,360 what do all these things, how do they, how do we improve a soil because really at that time the 65 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:33,360 classical thought was you're not going to build the soil. This is that thousand year scenario 66 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:40,400 and the thousand year scenario is more sand silt and clay degrading from the rockies. Okay that's 67 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:47,360 kind of what I look at more as the thousand year scenario but we can impact carbon in a much quicker 68 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:54,880 time frame. We can bring life in and so I went on a reading quest as well. I've always enjoyed reading 69 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:00,480 and but I started being a little more selective and I started looking at documents, Lewis and Clark 70 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:06,480 just an example, but I started looking at documents of what built our soils and it was such a 71 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,280 fascinating adventure and when you start reading about people like Aldo Leopold and all these 72 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:18,880 different people that looked at nature in a unique manner and so it started my road down this 73 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:26,080 rebuilding and adding life and it started to be fulfilling. And it sounds like maybe too at the 74 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:31,040 same time what you were seeing kind of what you were promoting and other people like you were 75 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,480 promoting wasn't really working too. It wasn't kind of what we're doing isn't working no matter 76 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:44,080 how much more we double down on doing it. Well so at that particular time so I started in the 1980s 77 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:51,040 I started in 1980 actually and so in 1980s our erosion rates in the northern plains, North 78 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Dakota specifically they they were what I would call sky high and so we also had water erosion 79 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:02,560 that's why I was building all these these structures treating treating symptoms. When our problem was 80 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:08,800 we couldn't get the water into the profile and so we had a we had a degraded soil and now we were 81 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,120 trying to make all these different changes by treating the symptoms and so that was kind of 82 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:19,920 the start of that process of rebuilding and putting life life into the soil and that led me down a 83 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:26,880 road of meeting some of the most fascinating people and and they were all they were all energized and 84 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:33,920 and it you felt right about it it felt like the right road so I was always happy I made that road. 85 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:39,840 You know when you do that I mean you know if I'm just being real honest with you not everybody 86 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,200 that you're working with is comfortable with that okay maybe management's looking at you a 87 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,600 little differently or maybe your peers are looking at you a little differently so it was real 88 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,720 important that I had family support so our children my wife everyone was fully in everyone's 89 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:02,240 support with me. Speaking of working with folks the other thing that struck me was when I first 90 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,800 started learning what was going on in Burleigh County was it almost seemed like a perfect storm 91 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:14,080 in that you had a really good team there of farmers scientists other agency folks folks that were just 92 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:19,440 interested in kind of regenerating that resource it sounds like that team effort was key because 93 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,640 you could if you had just been pushing this on your own or even if you had a couple really all-star 94 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,040 farmers that were really pushing it it probably wouldn't have gone anywhere. It's not the same no 95 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:36,640 you're exactly right and so we we did form a team and we did self-educate together and so it kind of 96 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:43,360 evolved around the the Burleigh Soil District Board of Supervisors and then the NRCS office 97 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:50,640 staff and the SCD office staff we were mingled together you you didn't know one of us from another 98 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:56,800 okay and we all worked on the same projects together and so we formed this team we self-educated we 99 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:02,960 would pick out topics and and of course initially it was easier to pick them out because they started 100 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:08,720 with the dynamic soil properties well these are the ones that you can change with management 101 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,360 and so these are the ones you want to start with when you look at soil health principles and they're 102 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:20,160 kind of built around those okay and so you so we started in that regard and and you're exactly 103 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:26,720 right so with the team and the meeting of the team and like-mindedness of the team you you felt you 104 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,600 had a place to sit down and talk about what was and wasn't working and if it wasn't working why 105 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:39,200 wasn't it and what do we need to change and let's do that so we did like roughly when was this when 106 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,920 was that what year roughly was that things kind of really changing for you and for this you know 107 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,240 when was this team getting together I always was curious about that so I think it was starting to 108 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:54,720 evolve in the late 80s so the 80s were really the frustration period so really super high erosion 109 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,280 rates and we had a lot of degradation in terms of our resource and so that was that was really the 110 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:07,120 80s and the 80s set the stage for this and as we got towards the end of the 80s we started evolving 111 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,680 and started putting this team together and so that that was kind of it's it's like they had to get 112 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:19,200 beat down a bit first and then in order to get traction and and in order to know you were actually 113 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,520 hitting in the right direction you were talking about the so the five soil house principles 114 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,240 did that come out of did you guys invent that where did that get come out of so the principles 115 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,880 I think uh you know if you read Gabe Brown's book I think he probably described it best he said 116 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:40,160 nature wrote the principles so so what we did and and what I did specifically for NRCS was I 117 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:46,400 wrote descriptions of the principles because at first we just had the term just the principle 118 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:53,040 okay well then you ask yourself what does that mean right right and so you you have a vague sense 119 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,720 but you don't know exactly what it all entails and I'm going to I'll give you an example so the one 120 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:07,280 that really evolved for me uh was the one on disturbance okay so initially disturbance well 121 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:13,680 that was physical disturbance with tillage okay so that's where it kind of started with it and my 122 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:18,880 first description is probably centered on that but the most recent one I I wrote on it which was 123 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:25,760 rather recent it's also biological disturbance which means less photosynthetic time less plant 124 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,440 diversity etc and then it was also chemical disturbance and so we can't you know it's not 125 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:38,160 realistic thought to think that we can continue to apply real high rates of of all the pesticides 126 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,760 continually and real high rates of a commercial fertility with no carbon in it but a high salt 127 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,560 reference in it and so we have to address these things from that viewpoint and so I think 128 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:55,040 disturbance changed I shouldn't say changed it evolved and got added to and expanded and we 129 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:01,200 started to understand that probably the biological disturbance is as big or bigger than even physical 130 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,760 disturbance so so that would be a point but I would say when we got into the 90s we started 131 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:13,440 gaining traction on it and and so it it became when I think back on it it became exciting and 132 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:19,200 so this was this thing was really moving and there was people that were everything from 133 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:26,640 ecstatic to upset and and and everything in between everything in between but yet a lot of enough 134 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:34,080 enough support and movement that you knew the road was this road was right direction it seems 135 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:41,040 like that this was very much influenced by holistic management is that true it is very much influenced 136 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:47,920 by holistic management I took the holistic management course 1986 in Bismarck from Ellen 137 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:54,560 Savory and so he came to Bismarck taught the class I attended the class and I met some people there 138 00:13:54,560 --> 00:14:01,040 that became lifelong people associates that you could discuss all these principles with and so it 139 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,640 was the first time I attended something where I said to myself well how can that person say that 140 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:12,480 yeah you know so because it was so contrary to conventional thinking and then later in the day 141 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:19,520 I'm like right I think you just said it again but but he brought out and and more in a principal 142 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:25,680 manner which I appreciate it different aspects that we're dealing with started with grazing 143 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:31,280 systems with them and then 30 years later we brought them back to Bismarck and we had a three 144 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:37,200 day session with them still a brilliant mind just one of the great thinking minds for sure well and 145 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:43,120 the reason I bring that up is I remember going on a field day tour there in Burleigh County and the 146 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:49,120 issue of quality of life was brought up repeatedly by both the farmers and folks like you and I was 147 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,920 like okay this really is starting to smell like holistic management where it's not just the 148 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,440 health of the soil or the health of your bottom line it's also the health of the family and that 149 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,760 kind of that kind of piece all is a part of a whole kind of thing yeah so we ended up adding a 150 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:13,040 holistic resource management coordinator if you will to our team and so that was Joshua Ducart 151 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:20,080 at the time and gave us that human aspect and we started thinking about things I'll use the term 152 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:25,440 purpose-driven life we started looking at that differently and we started seeing the need for 153 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:31,120 those things and and how you as a human being react differently when you have that in your life 154 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,840 because I had experienced it personally so I knew exactly what he was saying because I could relate 155 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,920 to it and going back a little bit to this because I am just fascinated by this the other thing that 156 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,400 always struck me was and this fit in with a lot of the work Land Stewardship Project's been doing 157 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:51,120 with farmers here in that instead of taking the old route of you've got the expert coming from 158 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,920 the university or from the government kind of handing down information from on high the farmers 159 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,760 were seen as experts too and they were often leading and it was kind of a real give-and-take 160 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,800 and farmers were coming to folks like you or to scientists and saying I'm seeing this thing go on 161 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,360 and I don't understand why can you help me figure this out and it really was a kind of a team effort 162 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,680 rather than I've got this expertise I'm here's the way it's going to be a cookie cutter solution 163 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:21,760 kind of thing. I think you're exactly on and that's correct and in one of those items that 164 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:28,080 that we addressed with farmers on the ground was some what we think of now pretty straightforward 165 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:34,320 and that is what moves the carbon needle and soil organic matter levels and so as we applied these 166 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:41,600 principles we saw this acceleration of soil organic matter gains to which we were told 167 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:48,880 that that's not possible and that is not correct but as we came you know further down the road and 168 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,800 we started getting into understanding the better understanding of the carbon cycle from the viewpoint 169 00:16:54,800 --> 00:17:01,360 of exudates which was kind of a missing portion back in the 80s not that it maybe wasn't known 170 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:07,440 in some scientific worlds but it wasn't commonly discussed in the ag community at all and so it 171 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,720 was definitely a missing part and so as that came into place all of a sudden the science was there 172 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,080 to support what we were seeing and we and I felt comfortable in what we were seeing because I 173 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:24,160 I took the tests myself I took those tests and before and after I had that data and so we stood 174 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,480 on that data but it wasn't popular and that's where like you said you needed family to kind 175 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:34,880 of support you some of those dark nights so you've been involved with this since 1980 you kind of 176 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,320 the late 80s started to kind of view things differently I have been around long enough I 177 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:46,240 remember the soil quality movement you know and there's been just soil conservation in general 178 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,200 that kind of thing I've been really struck by I think the soil health movement I don't know 179 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,040 if I want to call it a revolution maybe we can call it a revolution I don't know if you're 180 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,640 comfortable with that but kind of this this phase that we're in right now really has legs like I'm 181 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:07,280 seeing it it's just it is infiltrating so much of the regenerative ag movement and seeing more and 182 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,920 more quote-unquote conventional farmers kind of look into it what are some of the trends that you 183 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,360 have seen over the years and I guess did you think that it would become kind of this movement or or 184 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:22,000 did you yeah I just curious what you what you're what kind of the trends that you've seen over the 185 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,840 the years so if we if we go back a little bit when I started conservation tillage was the term yeah 186 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,560 and so I started with that and it was always a very difficult term for me because it had very 187 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:38,320 little to do with conservation it had a lot to do with tillage and different aspects of it and we 188 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,920 micro analyze that to death right and so that was a term kind of a generic term and then tilth was a 189 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,920 big thing yeah the word the word tilt was a big item yep and so you know you had all these things 190 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:55,840 then after that we moved into we changed terms we had organizations like manitoba north dakota zero 191 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:01,200 till association show up and they were a big influence in the 80s and early 90s and we came 192 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,560 up with words like no till and so that was a term that was thrown on to a lot of different systems 193 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,160 sometimes it fits sometimes it didn't it probably the weak point on it probably never was well 194 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:19,280 defined or described exactly what this means because it's rather generically used anymore 195 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,360 it was never really one of my favorite terms either because it was just about the seating 196 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,240 operation didn't talk much about carbon it didn't talk about much all these things didn't when 197 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:36,000 when nrcs moved into I think we had the name change in 94 if I remember right from scs to 198 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:43,280 nrcs but the interesting thing I remember was the posters and the poster for no till came out from 199 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:51,040 nrcs and it had some change laying on a table and it had an hourglass and you as the farmer the 200 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:57,440 message was you as a farmer we're going to move into no till to save time and money and it had 201 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,880 absolutely nothing to do with carbon or soil aggregates or nutrient density or it had nothing 202 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,320 to do with those aspects and we tried two or three big pushes internally within the agency to try to 203 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,800 make that thing move but it wouldn't move and the main reason it wouldn't move is we didn't understand 204 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,160 diversity and so we had no understanding of that and we had no understanding of how big this topic 205 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,280 was and how interconnected we were just dealing with one small little aspect of it well then from 206 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:30,160 there we started moving into the term soil health and soil health was a term that worked because no 207 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,120 matter who heard it they knew what it was and so I really think that's the big difference between 208 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:41,360 soil quality and soil health so quality came out of an aspect that really needed an interpreter 209 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:47,200 and and it needed somebody to explain what soil quality is how it functioned how it worked and 210 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:53,600 soil health kind of eventually became that so you you were looking at a scenario then with the 211 00:20:53,600 --> 00:21:00,400 principles and the description of the principles and so that then eventually kind of moved into 212 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:06,160 more of a regeneration type scenario because because I think everyone by then had a pretty good 213 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,840 understanding that hey we're building back we're going to build this back right and so that that 214 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,600 kind of came in the the whole regeneration thing and so I think terms are kind of inevitable I 215 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,520 think different periods of time have different terms and so I I don't look at them as a pro or 216 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:29,920 con or anything else I just look at them as that's that term that we're using during this 10-20 year 217 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:36,240 period here you know and it'll change again. Well I remember sustainable sustainable ag was was the 218 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,080 big thing for a long time and I remember I don't know when this was but a farmer I was at a field 219 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,120 day and a farmer said I'm not I don't want to just sustain the system I want to regenerate it and it 220 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:51,200 was this idea of I can use soil to improve it rather than just maybe sustaining a certain plateau 221 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,160 that I've gotten to and it's kind of a continuum we can get better and better and better I thought 222 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,120 oh this is a little different viewpoint than what I've been hearing. It is that is it that was the 223 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,760 different viewpoint but it was it was not just in the farming community that was having those 224 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:12,640 conversations those conversations were happening internally within NRCS too that that right now 225 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,520 you know the people that were working on especially working on symptoms they were looking at conserving 226 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,040 and they weren't looking at rebuilding or regeneration and they weren't looking at it 227 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:31,520 from the viewpoint of the health of the ecosystem and so there therein lied that dilemma if you will 228 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:37,600 not just in the farming community but internally within USDA as well and you know initially I think 229 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,280 there was a fair bit of pushback maybe in both entities but eventually I think both saw that 230 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,280 no we're probably not going to stop this we have to understand it and apply it so my my personal 231 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,560 goal has always been to farm forever so if we're going to farm forever you have to put these things 232 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:00,800 into the best best position that you can adjust and improve upon for sure. So are you seeing more 233 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,840 farmers adapting some of these practices over time and and seeing some the results? So I we initially 234 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:15,200 saw a lot of adaptation of physical disturbance especially that principle you know we've had 235 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,000 we definitely and I'm talking about northern plains now we definitely have less tillage than 236 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,960 we used to have so that's a positive we have some adoption of covers that's a positive and in terms 237 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:34,240 of planting green for pintos and soybeans etc so those are those are some positive things the main 238 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:40,160 the main operating system I feel still hasn't really changed I think that's still there and 239 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,600 so that part I would like to see some improvement upon. How would you describe what is that main 240 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,120 operating system? Main operating system in the northern plains would be limited crop diversity 241 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:58,640 so corn bean you know be soybeans number one crop now in the Dakotas so we took wheat out and you 242 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,720 say well that's just switching one out for the other but it's more than that because when we 243 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,640 took wheat out we took the high carbon plant out we took the one out that could build aggregates 244 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,560 and give you enough residue to last until you had a green plant growing again and we replaced it 245 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,920 with a plant that might be well meaning to do that but doesn't have the capabilities of a wheat plant 246 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,680 to do that it doesn't have the the plant characteristics necessary and so those are 247 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:33,600 scenarios that in our environment have evolved into what I would call wind erosion in no-till 248 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:40,480 systems and that sounds strange at this point in our juncture because at one time I think we had 249 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,720 that quite well stabilized but we had better diversity then we still had some wheat and we 250 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:53,520 had some beans we had some corn we had some sunflower canola these were all crops and so 251 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:59,120 we had some pretty good diversity and we had a pretty stable scenario and now the frequency 252 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:04,880 of the low carbon crop has increased dramatically the frequency of the high carbon crop has dropped 253 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:12,080 dramatically this has made a difference on our landscape this this is this is significant to me 254 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:17,440 it's concerning it's something that we need to address because you can't tolerate when you're 255 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:24,400 when you're looking at erosion this was an item that NRCS and I never agreed on was a tolerance 256 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:31,120 level for erosion well really that that's a political level that's not a that's not a real 257 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:38,560 level it no it's not a landscape or ecological level this farm we were on today when I put the 258 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,960 spade in the ground and looked at that particular perennial with livestock it's building it's not 259 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:51,680 losing and so it it it's way beyond that scenario and that's what we have to be thinking of so that 260 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,320 when we have a crop land field like this corn field that's pretty close by here when you walk 261 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,360 into that crop land field and put the spade in the ground I see soil aggregates I see life because 262 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,920 he's supplied all that and so it's a it's a different environment but if we're if we're 263 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:11,600 going to have frequency of a plant that isn't capable of building soil aggregates and it is 264 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:18,320 very low carbon very low amounts of armor on the soil surface that's going to impact us and in our 265 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:24,640 big scale ag country in the dakotas where the wind is there's nothing to stop it and so we 266 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,560 definitely are going to be impacted and have been yeah so you're seeing more erosion that type of 267 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:35,120 thing yeah I think we we're seeing more we probably had a golden period maybe coming into the early 268 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:43,920 2000 to 2010 might have been our utopia period okay and then when we got past 10 and we started 269 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,920 seeing much more frequency change in the cropping patterns that's when I think we really noticed the 270 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,800 erosion and so I also I guess we're just looking at this thing pretty honestly it appears as though 271 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:03,040 we've also kind of hardened in a bit to it and and so it's not yeah and and uh you know we 272 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,960 it's something we can't tolerate and build the soil and people look at and want to know how to 273 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,680 build carbon levels for voluntary carbon credits or whatever uh well first thing that has to be 274 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,640 addressed is erosion rates you can't have that and so you know if we can bring our erosion rates 275 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,320 down for wind and water and if we can improve our water quality and quantity I think then one time 276 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:33,120 one of my mentors told me after that get as fancy as you want to well speaking you were referring 277 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,960 to this farm that we're on here and you were here seven years ago and I think that's really 278 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,640 an important insight that you can provide in that you have you were able to then come back today 279 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,800 and you were here yesterday I know and kind of dug up some soil and did a lot a little walking 280 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,920 around what have you seen on this this farm here they're uh they're doing crops they're also have 281 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,880 got life a nice rotational grazing system going here what have you seen how is it different from 282 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:03,360 seven years ago what I'm really seeing from seven years ago overall uh and I'm talking about the 283 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:08,480 the farm in general here the bar has been raised on on soil health on this farm so I think they've 284 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,360 done a really good job of connecting the cropping system and the grazing system together and so 285 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:21,200 they've got multiple species of perennials and they are grazing them with ruminants and then you 286 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,720 are looking at daily moves and so when you're looking at that environment and they're just 287 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,760 topping it right so they're just topping taking the higher protein and energy portion of the plant 288 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:37,280 trampling up the other portion and so in within a few years you can see some pretty dramatic 289 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:44,320 changes in carbon and just life in general and then of course now we got fields that are out now 290 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,960 they've come out the other end of that system and they're in cropland and so we had a chance now to 291 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:55,360 get on those and those are looking remarkable and so what what he has is a nice connection of the 292 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:01,200 systems and so when you have a weak link right in a in a field or somewhere's on a farm and you can 293 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,360 come in with the perennial aspect that's a huge item and they've really done a nice job on it and 294 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,480 it's just raised the general level on the farm it's it's definitely caught my eye right away. 295 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,400 Kind of on the macro level some of the trends aren't so hot that we're seeing like you said 296 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,760 we're kind of hardened into a certain system but on a farm by farm basis we're seeing some pretty 297 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:27,360 exciting stuff. I think that I think that's the that's the hope right that's that's the the 298 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,840 shining light at the end of the tunnel tunnel because we have farms like that and those farms 299 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,160 are in every state and so I can't tell you how many have had the opportunity to be on over the 300 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,920 years and these are people that they get the bigger picture they understand that the nutrient 301 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,600 needs to stay on that farm and not leave it on a water course and they they get these items and 302 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,880 they address these items and they care about these items and I think that's that's why we're all 303 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,640 optimistic about it and and I think we should be and I think then it becomes how do we how do we 304 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:04,800 broaden that out and so that that's a that's a great question but I think that's a very real item 305 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,360 and we we definitely see that. It sounds like you've talked John out of using the mow board plow next 306 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:17,360 year. Well I guess I guess we'll find out when we got onto the cropland field first year cropland 307 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:24,080 cropland that was in a managed grazed perennial okay and and we got the spade in the ground and 308 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,840 took a look at that soil and you could see the life in it and the aggregates in it and it definitely 309 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,400 I think caught both their attention at least I hope it did and it appeared to be that way and so 310 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,400 when you I think when you see it and you see it in your own field in your own land and from your own 311 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,360 efforts that's that's pretty significant. Well I overheard him tell a couple of his neighbors 312 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,520 yeah I guess I'm not using the plow next year so I think yeah I think he's convinced a little bit 313 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,600 well and you get to come back it's kind of must be neat to come back to a farm after being here 314 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,560 seven years ago and seeing the changes maybe seven years from now we can look at it again. 315 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,600 For more on building soil health profitably see the podcast page for Ear to the Ground episode 316 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:20,800 354 at landstewardshipproject.org. There you also find a link to the podcast I did recently 317 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:26,000 with John Stevens and the original articles I wrote over a decade ago on the Burleigh County 318 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,320 Soil Health Team. If you have comments or suggestions about this podcast contact Brian Davor at bdavor 319 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:41,440 at landstewardshipproject.org or you can call 612-816-9342. By the way it helps us greatly if 320 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,440 you can give Ear to the Ground a rating on whatever podcast platform you utilize and word of mouth is 321 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,640 the best way to spread the news about our podcast. If you like what you hear tell at least one person 322 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:58,000 about LSP's Ear to the Ground. Thanks to Laura Borgendal, a western Minnesota musician for Ear 323 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,680 to the Ground's theme music and a special thank you to all of Land Stewardship Project's members 324 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,560 who make initiatives such as this podcast possible. If you're not a member visit 325 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:24,640 landstewardshipproject.org to learn how you can support LSP. Thanks for listening!